Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:04 AM - Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Mickey Coggins)
2. 03:22 AM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Dana Overall)
3. 05:32 AM - Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (SportAV8R@aol.com)
4. 06:00 AM - Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) (Jeff Point)
5. 07:24 AM - http://www.seatheater.com/ (Frazier, Vincent A)
6. 08:16 AM - Re: http://www.seatheater.com/ (Bill VonDane)
7. 08:50 AM - Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) (Stein Bruch)
8. 08:51 AM - Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) (Randy Richter)
9. 11:51 AM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Blanton Fortson)
10. 12:25 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Brian Denk)
11. 12:59 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Rob Prior)
12. 01:22 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Tedd McHenry)
13. 01:43 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Ron Walker)
14. 01:48 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Doug Rozendaal)
15. 01:56 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (C. Rabaut)
16. 02:08 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Blanton Fortson)
17. 02:29 PM - Re: http://www.seatheater.com/ (Kysh)
18. 02:33 PM - OOPS!!! www.seatheater.com (Frazier, Vincent A)
19. 02:41 PM - stupid fuel gauge question (r miller)
20. 02:44 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (ogoodwin@comcast.net)
21. 02:55 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG))
22. 02:59 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Randy Richter)
23. 04:02 PM - Re: Rocket-List: OOPS!!! www.seatheater.com (css nico)
24. 04:06 PM - Re: Builder's Section Login (Dan Checkoway)
25. 04:38 PM - Re: stupid fuel gauge question (Trampas)
26. 04:43 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Michael McGee)
27. 05:39 PM - Re: RV-8 O540 (JANWR101@aol.com)
28. 06:01 PM - Re: Re: Builder's Section Login (JOHN STARN)
29. 06:27 PM - Re: stupid fuel gauge question (Cy Galley)
30. 06:27 PM - Re: RV-8 O540 (Lenleg@aol.com)
31. 06:48 PM - Re: http://www.seatheater.com/ (Larygagnon@aol.com)
32. 07:04 PM - alternator (Wheeler North)
33. 07:10 PM - Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video (Wayne Reese)
34. 07:17 PM - Muffin fan and firewall wire pass-through pics (N67BT@aol.com)
35. 07:21 PM - Fw: credit ?? (JOHN STARN)
36. 07:38 PM - RV Seat Heaters (Doug Bell)
37. 07:41 PM - Re: Re: Builder's Section Login (Randy Lervold)
38. 09:02 PM - ComDat GPS/VHF antenna quality (jgburns)
39. 10:17 PM - Kem Kromic Primer (Jim/Kathy)
40. 11:03 PM - Re: - Thunderbirds & Altimeter (GMC)
41. 11:37 PM - Re: - Thunderbirds & Altimeter (Claude Heiniger)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Hi,
Sorry about the off-topic post, but I know there are some
ex- and current fighter jocks on the list, and I wonder if
you feel, as I do, that this seems to be an unfair verdict
on this accident.
I just can't imagine a procedure for airshow flying that
uses MSL instead of AGL. Who cares, when you are performing
the kind of maneuvers that these folks do, how high over
the ocean you might be? Help me understand this.
I've studied human factors and error analysis for quite
some time, and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting
to happen. Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL
altitudes depending on the airshow site? Sounds strange.
I've been a Thunderbirds fan since before I could walk,
and being an USAF brat had seen one of their shows every
year growing up. I just hate to see this kid get sent off
to the Pentagon for getting bitten by some bad training
or bad procedures. I hope the team learns from this crash.
Am I all wet?
Mickey
>THUNDERBIRDS CRASH REPORT AND VIDEO
>Pilot error caused a U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds F-16 to crash at an air
>show on Sept. 14 at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, the Air Force
>said on Wednesday. (See AVweb's NewsWire for in-cockpit video of the
>crash.) The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of 2,500
>feet before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver, according
>to the Air Force news release. The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31,
>apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing the
>maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet
>lower than the Idaho field elevation. The pilot ejected just
>eight-tenths of a second before impact, after reportedly making an
>effort to steer the aircraft away from the crowd of about 85,000 ... and
>now works at the Pentagon, in Washington, D.C.
>http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/190-full.html#186582
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
Message 2
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| Subject: | Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
Mickey, initially it looks to me he just had a brain fart and mistakenly
used an altitude he had been practicing the manuever at, instead an
altitude appropriate for the site??
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
Buying Instruments. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com
do not archive
>From: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video
>Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 12:03:07 +0100
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>Hi,
>
>Sorry about the off-topic post, but I know there are some
>ex- and current fighter jocks on the list, and I wonder if
>you feel, as I do, that this seems to be an unfair verdict
>on this accident.
>
>I just can't imagine a procedure for airshow flying that
>uses MSL instead of AGL. Who cares, when you are performing
>the kind of maneuvers that these folks do, how high over
>the ocean you might be? Help me understand this.
>
>I've studied human factors and error analysis for quite
>some time, and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting
>to happen. Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL
>altitudes depending on the airshow site? Sounds strange.
>
>I've been a Thunderbirds fan since before I could walk,
>and being an USAF brat had seen one of their shows every
>year growing up. I just hate to see this kid get sent off
>to the Pentagon for getting bitten by some bad training
>or bad procedures. I hope the team learns from this crash.
>
>Am I all wet?
>
>Mickey
>
>
> >THUNDERBIRDS CRASH REPORT AND VIDEO
> >Pilot error caused a U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds F-16 to crash at an air
> >show on Sept. 14 at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, the Air Force
> >said on Wednesday. (See AVweb's NewsWire for in-cockpit video of the
> >crash.) The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of 2,500
> >feet before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver, according
> >to the Air Force news release. The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31,
> >apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing the
> >maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet
> >lower than the Idaho field elevation. The pilot ejected just
> >eight-tenths of a second before impact, after reportedly making an
> >effort to steer the aircraft away from the crowd of about 85,000 ... and
> >now works at the Pentagon, in Washington, D.C.
> >http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/190-full.html#186582
>
>--
>Mickey Coggins
>http://www.rv8.ch/
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Cold weather - cabin heat |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
I figure I am now
good to go comfortably in normal clothes and tennis
shoes to about 5 below(F). Any colder than that will
necessitate me wearing winter clothes while flying
<snip>
Given any thought to your survival needs if you are downed a good ways from civilization?
In the mountainous part of Virginia where I fly, it is constantly
on my mind. Although I carry a survival kit containing several metalized mylar
"space blankets" and every fire-starting device known to man, along with signals,
etc, I do not take for granted that every crash scenario leaves me able
to get out of the wreckage or to reach the survival kit as I hastily exit a plane
that might expeerience a post-crash fire. For this reason, I never try to
get by with minimum comfortable clothing levels for the flight, and I carry redundant
supplies in the pockets of my flight suit, which is always on my person
in the winter.
Survival in skimpy clothing on the ground at zero degrees is not assured. Why
set yourself up for the misery of attempting it?
This raises another question I'd personally like to see bandied about in its own
thread: what's in YOUR survival kit?
-Bill Boyd
RV-6A
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Stein, just curious what kind of CPU fans you used? The ones I got at
the Shack move a pretty good volume of air for their size, but I did
have to look around for a while for them. Some CPU fans are pretty
wimpy. I'm not flying yet, so we will see how they work.
Jeff Point
Stein Bruch wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>
>Guys....the "slimmer" CPU fans are a no-go.
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
http://www.seatheater.com/
try these folks. they speak airplane.
Vince
Message 6
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
If they speak airplane... They probably also speak expensive...
-Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
Subject: RV-List: http://www.seatheater.com/
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
http://www.seatheater.com/
try these folks. they speak airplane.
Vince
Message 7
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| Subject: | Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Hi Jeff,
I used those exact Radio Shack fans..down to the make and model...
They do move a fair amount of air, but just not enough when it's really cold
with two windbags like myself sitting inside. I guess another thing is if
you have hot air ducted to them the probably workm much better, I just use
ambient air behind the panel. I wouldn't get too worried about it, the CPU
fans did work fine down to about 15oF, but below that weren't enough. Also
depends on how warm the hangar/plane were before you pushed it outside. In
the end, most people probably won't spend much time flying when it's that
cold anyway, but for me it's some of the nicest air you're ever bound to
see!
Which brings me to my "winter kit". If I'm flying x/c, I have the following
along. Extra warm hat, large parka, gloves, small amount of food (candy
bars, etc..), water, and a small blanket. When I'm flying locally, I don't
have one, becuase I'd have to get quite aways from the Cities to get more
than a mile from civilization if I were forced to land.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Point
Subject: Re: RV-List: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics)
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Stein, just curious what kind of CPU fans you used? The ones I got at
the Shack move a pretty good volume of air for their size, but I did
have to look around for a while for them. Some CPU fans are pretty
wimpy. I'm not flying yet, so we will see how they work.
Jeff Point
Stein Bruch wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>
>Guys....the "slimmer" CPU fans are a no-go.
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Cold weather - cabin heat (muffin fan pics) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Randy Richter <richterrbb@earthlink.net>
List, I've been following this thread, too, because I hadn't even
thought of the need for this until it was mentioned here. So I just did
a google search for "cooling fans" and came up with several promising sites:
AC Blowers, AC Axial Fans, DC blowers, DC Axial Fans from Comair Rotron
- <http://www.comairrotron.com/datasheets.html>
(http://www.comairrotron.com/datasheets.html)
PAPST Fans
<http://www.papst.de/english/products_luefter_dcaxial01.html>
(http://www.papst.de/english/products_luefter_dcaxial01.html)
Fans & Blowers: Muffin / Flat Types
<http://www.surplussales.com/Fans-Blowers/FansBlow-3.html>
(http://www.surplussales.com/Fans-Blowers/FansBlow-3.html)
1COOLPC / High Quality Computer Cooling Fans <http://www.1coolpc.com/>
(http://www.1coolpc.com/)
Antec Cooling Fans
<http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details_cooling.php?ProdID=75003>
(http://www.antec-inc.com/us/pro_details_cooling.php?ProdID=75003)
I'm sure there are many more out there.
Randy
Jeff Point wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
>Stein, just curious what kind of CPU fans you used? The ones I got at
>the Shack move a pretty good volume of air for their size, but I did
>have to look around for a while for them. Some CPU fans are pretty
>wimpy. I'm not flying yet, so we will see how they work.
>
>Jeff Point
>
>Stein Bruch wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>>
>>Guys....the "slimmer" CPU fans are a no-go.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
Randy Richter
richterrbb@earthlink.net
-7QB Kit in hibernation
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
>> Help me understand this.
OK
>> Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL altitudes depending on
the airshow site?
That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's the
only way it *can* work.
>>and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting to happen.
Picture this alternative:
ATC: "RV 1051B, (departing San Francisco) cleared direct to Denver at
3,000 AGL"
How would that work?
Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
B.
On Jan 26, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Mickey Coggins wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> Hi,
>
> Sorry about the off-topic post, but I know there are some
> ex- and current fighter jocks on the list, and I wonder if
> you feel, as I do, that this seems to be an unfair verdict
> on this accident.
>
> I just can't imagine a procedure for airshow flying that
> uses MSL instead of AGL. Who cares, when you are performing
> the kind of maneuvers that these folks do, how high over
> the ocean you might be? Help me understand this.
>
> I've studied human factors and error analysis for quite
> some time, and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting
> to happen. Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL
> altitudes depending on the airshow site? Sounds strange.
>
> I've been a Thunderbirds fan since before I could walk,
> and being an USAF brat had seen one of their shows every
> year growing up. I just hate to see this kid get sent off
> to the Pentagon for getting bitten by some bad training
> or bad procedures. I hope the team learns from this crash.
>
> Am I all wet?
>
> Mickey
>
>
>> THUNDERBIRDS CRASH REPORT AND VIDEO
>> Pilot error caused a U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds F-16 to crash at an
>> air
>> show on Sept. 14 at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, the Air Force
>> said on Wednesday. (See AVweb's NewsWire for in-cockpit video of the
>> crash.) The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of
>> 2,500
>> feet before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver,
>> according
>> to the Air Force news release. The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31,
>> apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing
>> the
>> maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet
>> lower than the Idaho field elevation. The pilot ejected just
>> eight-tenths of a second before impact, after reportedly making an
>> effort to steer the aircraft away from the crowd of about 85,000 ...
>> and
>> now works at the Pentagon, in Washington, D.C.
>> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/190-full.html#186582
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
>
> >> Help me understand this.
>
>OK
>
> >> Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL altitudes depending on
>the airshow site?
>
>That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's the
>only way it *can* work.
Negatory. Competition or show aerobatics are performed in a box, over a
known MSL elevation. You zero your altimeter to either the desired "knock
it off" hard deck AGL elevation, or ground level. This provides immediate,
no-brainwork-required, information of exactly how much room you have between
your tender butt and terra firma.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
http://wine.msn.com/
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
Blanton Fortson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
> That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's the
> only way it *can* work.
>
> Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
Bzzt. Sorry, but that's not always true.
At least when towing gliders, it is S.O.P. (Standard Operating
Procedure) to tow to a fixed altitude AGL. The norm is to set the
towplane altimeter to 0' at airfield elevation, so 2000' of tow is 2000'
on the dial. Since you're always operating within the vincinity of the
airport anyway, you rarely need to call out your altitude ASL.
I would be very surprised if most airshow performers (at least in light
aircraft) didn't do the exact same thing. This way, your loop before
the low-level-inverted-ribbon-cutting pass is always topped at 1500' (or
whatever) on the dial.
Any airshow performers on the list care to comment?
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Unless I'm wrong, in the U.S. MSL is used only above 18000 ASL, as it is in
Canada. (In Canada we also use MSL in the arctic at all altitudes.) So the
report probably should say ASL, not MSL.
I believe that some airshow performers set their altimeters to zero on the
ground before a performance, so that their altitude references are always the
same from show to show. However, I don't think teams like the Thunderbirds do
that because, for one thing, they often perform at a different airfield than
they take off from, and often the show box isn't at an airfield at all. If my
memory of riding with the Snowbirds is correct, they use standard altimeter
settings (i.e. ASL, not MSL) and brief altitudes for each performance.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" <ron@walker.net>
I think maybe Mickey was referring to the practice of "zero-ing" the
altimiter while on the ground prior to wheels up. That way it shows AGL.
This is something that I've done with a lot of the local flyin events like
flower bombing/spot landing and such.
Ron
----- Original Message -----
From: "Blanton Fortson" <blanton@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video
> --> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
>
> >> Help me understand this.
>
> OK
>
> >> Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL altitudes depending on
> the airshow site?
>
> That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's the
> only way it *can* work.
>
> >>and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting to happen.
>
> Picture this alternative:
>
> ATC: "RV 1051B, (departing San Francisco) cleared direct to Denver at
> 3,000 AGL"
>
> How would that work?
>
> Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
>
> B.
>
>
> On Jan 26, 2004, at 2:03 AM, Mickey Coggins wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Sorry about the off-topic post, but I know there are some
> > ex- and current fighter jocks on the list, and I wonder if
> > you feel, as I do, that this seems to be an unfair verdict
> > on this accident.
> >
> > I just can't imagine a procedure for airshow flying that
> > uses MSL instead of AGL. Who cares, when you are performing
> > the kind of maneuvers that these folks do, how high over
> > the ocean you might be? Help me understand this.
> >
> > I've studied human factors and error analysis for quite
> > some time, and this smells like an obvious disaster waiting
> > to happen. Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL
> > altitudes depending on the airshow site? Sounds strange.
> >
> > I've been a Thunderbirds fan since before I could walk,
> > and being an USAF brat had seen one of their shows every
> > year growing up. I just hate to see this kid get sent off
> > to the Pentagon for getting bitten by some bad training
> > or bad procedures. I hope the team learns from this crash.
> >
> > Am I all wet?
> >
> > Mickey
> >
> >
> >> THUNDERBIRDS CRASH REPORT AND VIDEO
> >> Pilot error caused a U.S. Air Force Thunderbirds F-16 to crash at an
> >> air
> >> show on Sept. 14 at Mountain Home Air Force Base, Idaho, the Air Force
> >> said on Wednesday. (See AVweb's NewsWire for in-cockpit video of the
> >> crash.) The pilot incorrectly climbed to 1,670 feet AGL instead of
> >> 2,500
> >> feet before initiating the pull-down to the Split-S maneuver,
> >> according
> >> to the Air Force news release. The pilot, Chris Stricklin, 31,
> >> apparently flew by mistake to the MSL altitude used when practicing
> >> the
> >> maneuver at his home base, Nellis AFB in Nevada, which is 1,000 feet
> >> lower than the Idaho field elevation. The pilot ejected just
> >> eight-tenths of a second before impact, after reportedly making an
> >> effort to steer the aircraft away from the crowd of about 85,000 ...
> >> and
> >> now works at the Pentagon, in Washington, D.C.
> >> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/190-full.html#186582
> >
> > --
> > Mickey Coggins
> > http://www.rv8.ch/
> >
> >
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > _-
> > =======================================================================
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> How would that work?
>
> Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
>
> B.
Not exactly correct, American Airlines used to set one of the 3 altimeters
in the cockpit to read zero on landing, It was called QFE or QNE or QNH, I
can't remember which.
It was a bad idea, and they dropped it.
Before anyone asks the obvious "Qxx" question, check this out:
http://www.analogzone.com/acqe0729.pdf
My understanding of this accident is that the T-birds policy is to set
altimeters to the nearest 1000 feet. This is a pretty standard airshow
practice. If you tried to Zero them, most altimeters could not be zeroed
above a few thousand MSL depending on the barometric pressure. It is
assumed that timing, and Situational Awareness (SA) should take care of "how
many thousand feet" you are above the ground. There is a radar altimeter
in the HUD that displays AGL, but I don't know if it works when the airplane
is inverted.
In defense of the Air Force procedure, think about it, a fighter pilot dog
fighting in the mountains can not change the altimeter to reflect AGL.
Being a fighter pilot requires "SA," The T-birds are there to demonstrate
what fighter pilots can do. SA is a big part of that. This poor guy lost
SA for a split second, it cost him his career and nearly his life.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
I second Brian's comment. That's what we do/did at all I.A.C. meets (zero
at ground, imagine your "hard deck" at say 3-k, so you know where bail-out
is in the event of structural failure or...). I would presume airshow
guys/gals do the same.
Chuck
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Denk <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
> >
> > >> Help me understand this.
> >
> >OK
> >
> > >> Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL altitudes depending on
> >the airshow site?
> >
> >That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's the
> >only way it *can* work.
>
> Negatory. Competition or show aerobatics are performed in a box, over a
> known MSL elevation. You zero your altimeter to either the desired "knock
> it off" hard deck AGL elevation, or ground level. This provides
immediate,
> no-brainwork-required, information of exactly how much room you have
between
> your tender butt and terra firma.
>
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
>
> Learn how to choose, serve, and enjoy wine at Wine @ MSN.
> http://wine.msn.com/
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
That's very interesting, Rob. I didn't know that. Thanks for the
elucidation. That makes sense for glider (and airshow?) ops.
Further off the track: A handful of winters ago when Fairbanks was
sitting beneath a monumental high under -60 F temps most aviation was
suspended for a couple of days because most altimeters could not be set
to that high a barometric pressure. Density altitude was something like
14,000 ft. below sea level, if my memory serves me.
B.
On Jan 26, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Rob Prior wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rob Prior <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> Blanton Fortson wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Blanton Fortson <blanton@alaska.net>
>> That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's
>> the
>> only way it *can* work.
>>
>> Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
>
> Bzzt. Sorry, but that's not always true.
>
> At least when towing gliders, it is S.O.P. (Standard Operating
> Procedure) to tow to a fixed altitude AGL. The norm is to set the
> towplane altimeter to 0' at airfield elevation, so 2000' of tow is
> 2000'
> on the dial. Since you're always operating within the vincinity of the
> airport anyway, you rarely need to call out your altitude ASL.
>
> I would be very surprised if most airshow performers (at least in light
> aircraft) didn't do the exact same thing. This way, your loop before
> the low-level-inverted-ribbon-cutting pass is always topped at 1500'
> (or
> whatever) on the dial.
>
> Any airshow performers on the list care to comment?
>
>
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> _-
> =======================================================================
> >
>
>
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As Bill VonDane was saying:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>
> If they speak airplane... They probably also speak expensive...
Quote Of The Year.
-Kysh
Do Not Archive
--
| 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying |
| CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr |
| 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang |
| Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ |
| KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham |
| Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ |
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | OOPS!!! www.seatheater.com |
"Rocket-List Digest (E-mail)" <rocket-list-digest@matronics.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
OOPS!!!!
MY BAD, please read. I goofed earlier and suggested that you contact www.seatheater.com to get info on heated seats. They aren't equipped to handle the calls from the general public, only from distributors and authorized vendors. Please don't call them. They are engineers, and set up to handle volume sales, not curiosity calls.
Now, having admitted my boo-boo, you can get their products through various dealers
right now and I am working with them to become an authorized distributor
in the future. Stay tuned.
If you'd like more info today, please give me a call. I've learned a bunch already!
Vince Frazier
3965 Caborn Road
Mount Vernon, IN 47620
812-464-1839 work
812-985-7309 home
1946 Stinson, NC97535, FOR SALE
F-1H Rocket, N540VF, Crazy Horse
<http://www.usi.edu/science/chemistry/vfrazier/page1.html>
Message 19
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| Subject: | stupid fuel gauge question |
--> RV-List message posted by: r miller <robertpmiller@comcast.net>
O.K. I have to drill to mount my tank sending unit and I need to know
which way is up. When the tank is full is the resistance low or high?
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: ogoodwin@comcast.net
Unless they dropped it in the last couple of years, they (American) are still doing
it. It was one of the items briefed to jumpseaters so they'd know what was
going on.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
> > How would that work?
> >
> > Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
> >
> > B.
>
> Not exactly correct, American Airlines used to set one of the 3 altimeters
> in the cockpit to read zero on landing, It was called QFE or QNE or QNH, I
> can't remember which.
> It was a bad idea, and they dropped it.
>
> Before anyone asks the obvious "Qxx" question, check this out:
> http://www.analogzone.com/acqe0729.pdf
>
> My understanding of this accident is that the T-birds policy is to set
> altimeters to the nearest 1000 feet. This is a pretty standard airshow
> practice. If you tried to Zero them, most altimeters could not be zeroed
> above a few thousand MSL depending on the barometric pressure. It is
> assumed that timing, and Situational Awareness (SA) should take care of "how
> many thousand feet" you are above the ground. There is a radar altimeter
> in the HUD that displays AGL, but I don't know if it works when the airplane
> is inverted.
>
> In defense of the Air Force procedure, think about it, a fighter pilot dog
> fighting in the mountains can not change the altimeter to reflect AGL.
> Being a fighter pilot requires "SA," The T-birds are there to demonstrate
> what fighter pilots can do. SA is a big part of that. This poor guy lost
> SA for a split second, it cost him his career and nearly his life.
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst@ucol.ac.nz>
> >> Performing all the maneuvers at different MSL altitudes depending
on
> >> the airshow site?
> That's how all of aviation works, all over the world, Mickey. It's
the
> only way it *can* work.
Not exactly true...
If you set your altimeter to read 0ft when on the ramp, then from then
on all heights displayed on it will be AGL (so long as you are operating
above that airfield).
IIRC, the British used to do this (maybe they still do) and there is a
QN-something (QNV ???) code for it.
The Tower would report its QNV, and aircraft operating there would set
their altimeters accordingly to read altitudes in feet AGL.
Frank
Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online
at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL
(0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information
and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of
Learning.
Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your
future
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Randy Richter <richterrbb@earthlink.net>
So, here's how the Q's break down (I think):
QFE reads "0" on the ground, is only good at the field that issues it
and is used in the UK a lot. I was taught a rather naughty mnemonic to
remember it: QFE is "f_ _ _ed"
QNE is 29.92 in Hg/1013.2 mb and is what you set when you enter Class A
airspace (FL180 and above in the US, whatever the locals use elsewhere
in the world - some places I've been it's as low as 2,500).
QNH is the good ol' local altimeter you get when you listen to
ATIS/AWOS/ASOS/etc. which allows you to read field elevation when you're
on the ground.
The most important thing to remember about this nomenclature is that
NO-ONE is going to test you on it.
By all means, if I'm wrong, correct me.
:-P I make absolutely no
claims to know how airshow pilots set their altimeters.
YM(should not)V with these settings!
Randy
PS: Doug, how did you come across this website? That's some pretty
esoteric info!
Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
>
>
>>How would that work?
>>
>>Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
>>
>>B.
>>
>>
>
>Not exactly correct, American Airlines used to set one of the 3 altimeters
>in the cockpit to read zero on landing, It was called QFE or QNE or QNH, I
>can't remember which.
>It was a bad idea, and they dropped it.
>
>Before anyone asks the obvious "Qxx" question, check this out:
>http://www.analogzone.com/acqe0729.pdf
>
>My understanding of this accident is that the T-birds policy is to set
>altimeters to the nearest 1000 feet. This is a pretty standard airshow
>practice. If you tried to Zero them, most altimeters could not be zeroed
>above a few thousand MSL depending on the barometric pressure. It is
>assumed that timing, and Situational Awareness (SA) should take care of "how
>many thousand feet" you are above the ground. There is a radar altimeter
>in the HUD that displays AGL, but I don't know if it works when the airplane
>is inverted.
>
>In defense of the Air Force procedure, think about it, a fighter pilot dog
>fighting in the mountains can not change the altimeter to reflect AGL.
>Being a fighter pilot requires "SA," The T-birds are there to demonstrate
>what fighter pilots can do. SA is a big part of that. This poor guy lost
>SA for a split second, it cost him his career and nearly his life.
>
>Tailwinds,
>Doug Rozendaal
>
>
--
Randy Richter
richterrbb@earthlink.net
-7QB Kit in hibernation
Message 23
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|
"RV-List Digest (E-mail)" <rv-list-digest@matronics.com>,
"Rocket-List Digest (E-mail)" <rocket-list-digest@matronics.com>
| Subject: | Re: Rocket-List: OOPS!!! www.seatheater.com |
--> RV-List message posted by: "css nico" <nico@cybersuperstore.com>
Well, well. You all know the old adage that there is nothing new under the
sun. I thought the 'hot seat' that a Rocket provides would be sufficient.
I was wrong, huh?
Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
Digest (E-mail)" <rocket-list-digest@matronics.com>
Subject: Rocket-List: OOPS!!! www.seatheater.com
> --> Rocket-List message posted by: "Frazier, Vincent A" <VFrazier@usi.edu>
>
> OOPS!!!!
>
> MY BAD, please read. I goofed earlier and suggested that you contact
www.seatheater.com to get info on heated seats. They aren't equipped to
handle the calls from the general public, only from distributors and
authorized vendors. Please don't call them. They are engineers, and set up
to handle volume sales, not curiosity calls.
>
> Now, having admitted my boo-boo, you can get their products through
various dealers right now and I am working with them to become an authorized
distributor in the future. Stay tuned.
>
> If you'd like more info today, please give me a call. I've learned a
bunch already!
>
> Vince Frazier
> 3965 Caborn Road
> Mount Vernon, IN 47620
> 812-464-1839 work
> 812-985-7309 home
> 1946 Stinson, NC97535, FOR SALE
> F-1H Rocket, N540VF, Crazy Horse
> <http://www.usi.edu/science/chemistry/vfrazier/page1.html>
>
>
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Builder's Section Login |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Re: web access to rocketclubhouse.com
Ordinarily I wouldn't bug you with a reply, but I'm really surprised you
refuse to let me browse your Rocket web site. I'm curious why you'd want to
withold information that could help other builders? That's not exactly a
good way to propagate knowledge to promote quality & safety.
It doesn't seem like I'm asking for much. I subscribe to the
rocket-list@matronics.com (among several other lists which I find
informative), and somebody posted a reference to your site in the context of
something relevant to my own building process. All I wanted to do was see
the photos he mentioned.
It's not like I'm just some Joe Schmoe who wants to spider your site. I'm a
legitimate RV builder (flier in a few months), future potential Rocket
builder, and webmaster myself. This doesn't seem like a way to welcome
prospective Rocket builders into the community!
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gibbons" <gibbons@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Builder's Section Login
> Dan,
>
> Yep, I'm serious. You must be an F1 builder to access the builders only
> portion of my site.
>
> The site isn't affiliated with Team Rocket in any way. It's my personal
> site based on a computer at my office, so I don't feel too bad in making a
> portion of it available only to F1 builders.
>
> Best of luck with the RV7 - hope you enjoy it as much as the RV builders I
> know enjoy theirs.
>
> Chip Gibbons
>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: Builder's Section Login
> You're serious? I can't even browse what you've got on your site unless I
> build an F1?
>
> )_( Dan
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chip Gibbons" <gibbons@cox-internet.com>
> > To: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 9:29 AM
> > Subject: Re: Builder's Section Login
> >
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > Let me know when you get your F1 and I'll set you up. The builders site
> is
> > limited to builders only (I don't even set up guys who've ordered but
not
> > received their kits).
> >
> > Your 7 looks great. You're going to love it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chip
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dan Checkoway
> > To: gibbons@cox-internet.com
> > Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 10:55 AM
> > Subject: Builder's Section Login
> >
> >
> > Chip,
> >
> > Would it be possible for me to have a login to your Builders-Only
> section
> > on
> > your rocketclubhouse.com web site? I'm not building a Rocket YET, but
> I'm
> > almost done with my RV-7 and would love access to your resources to
see
> > them
> > now and in the future.
> >
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> >
> >
> >
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | stupid fuel gauge question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
If you are using the 240 ohm float type of sensor, part number 395-5T then
when full the resistance is low.
Regards,
Trampas Stern
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of r miller
Subject: RV-List: stupid fuel gauge question
--> RV-List message posted by: r miller <robertpmiller@comcast.net>
O.K. I have to drill to mount my tank sending unit and I need to know
which way is up. When the tank is full is the resistance low or high?
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
..and just in case you'll be tooling around in the Caribbean, this is what
you will be hearing from the local ATC/flight service when given your
altimeter settings.
QNE over water
and
QNH for your departure/destination airport.
We were told to speak in "flight levels" when enroute. You get to learn
your position reporting all over again.
"..RV N996RV, flight level 75, expect the boundary at 20.." P-)
Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR
13B in gestation mode
At 14:56 2004-01-26, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Randy Richter <richterrbb@earthlink.net>
>
>So, here's how the Q's break down (I think):
>
>QFE reads "0" on the ground, is only good at the field that issues it
>and is used in the UK a lot. I was taught a rather naughty mnemonic to
>remember it: QFE is "f_ _ _ed"
>
>QNE is 29.92 in Hg/1013.2 mb and is what you set when you enter Class A
>airspace (FL180 and above in the US, whatever the locals use elsewhere
>in the world - some places I've been it's as low as 2,500).
>
>QNH is the good ol' local altimeter you get when you listen to
>ATIS/AWOS/ASOS/etc. which allows you to read field elevation when you're
>on the ground.
>
>The most important thing to remember about this nomenclature is that
>NO-ONE is going to test you on it.
>
>By all means, if I'm wrong, correct me.
>:-P I make absolutely no
>claims to know how airshow pilots set their altimeters.
>
>YM(should not)V with these settings!
>
>Randy
>
>PS: Doug, how did you come across this website? That's some pretty
>esoteric info!
>
>
>Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >>How would that work?
> >>
> >>Excepting radar altimeters, all altimeters reference MSL, not AGL.
> >>
> >>B.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Not exactly correct, American Airlines used to set one of the 3 altimeters
> >in the cockpit to read zero on landing, It was called QFE or QNE or QNH, I
> >can't remember which.
> >It was a bad idea, and they dropped it.
> >
> >Before anyone asks the obvious "Qxx" question, check this out:
> >http://www.analogzone.com/acqe0729.pdf
> >
> >My understanding of this accident is that the T-birds policy is to set
> >altimeters to the nearest 1000 feet. This is a pretty standard airshow
> >practice. If you tried to Zero them, most altimeters could not be zeroed
> >above a few thousand MSL depending on the barometric pressure. It is
> >assumed that timing, and Situational Awareness (SA) should take care of "how
> >many thousand feet" you are above the ground. There is a radar altimeter
> >in the HUD that displays AGL, but I don't know if it works when the airplane
> >is inverted.
> >
> >In defense of the Air Force procedure, think about it, a fighter pilot dog
> >fighting in the mountains can not change the altimeter to reflect AGL.
> >Being a fighter pilot requires "SA," The T-birds are there to demonstrate
> >what fighter pilots can do. SA is a big part of that. This poor guy lost
> >SA for a split second, it cost him his career and nearly his life.
> >
> >Tailwinds,
> >Doug Rozendaal
> >
> >
>--
>Randy Richter
>richterrbb@earthlink.net
>-7QB Kit in hibernation
Message 27
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: JANWR101@aol.com
Len my name is john marshall I have one of the 8s with a 540. you can reach
me at317 862 2389
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Builder's Section Login |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
I just finished reading "Unlocking The Sky" about Wright vs Curtiss. I
celebrate what the Wright Bros. were able to do HOWEVER from what I have
read they seem to have been from the ME, ME, ME generation. Glenn Curtiss
seems to be like the vast majority of RV & Rocket builders. Mr. Chip Gibbons
sounds more like a third Wright brother.
With that said I offer my assistance, ideas, photo postings to all EXCEPT
Mr. Gibbons. I hereby rescind any previous approval to the use postings of
any nature made be me to ONLY Mr. Gibbons which includes but not limited to
MY wing tip lockers, MY tire inflation modification, MY cockpit vents, MY
rear rudder peddles etc. Everyone EXCEPT Mr. Gibbons may use, copy, display
or transmit MY ideas as they see fit.
I don't go where I'm not wanted so Mr. Gibbons can rest assured that I will
not attempt to contact nor view ANY of his web site data. I think that Van,
John and Mark have set a very high mark for each of us to strive toward. Mr.
Gibbons (IMNSHO) on the other hand can keep his data and his head up tight
and locked. KABONG Do Not Archive
> Re: web access to rocketclubhouse.com
>
> Ordinarily I wouldn't bug you with a reply, but I'm really surprised you
> refuse to let me browse your Rocket web site. I'm curious why you'd want
to
> withold information that could help other builders? That's not exactly a
> good way to propagate knowledge to promote quality & safety.
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
> > Yep, I'm serious. You must be an F1 builder to access the builders only
> > portion of my site.
> > Chip Gibbons
> >
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> To: "Chip Gibbons" <gibbons@cox-internet.com>
> Subject: Re: Builder's Section Login
> > You're serious? I can't even browse what you've got on your site unless
I
> > build an F1?
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: stupid fuel gauge question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
The wiper-resistance type of fuel indicator is set up so that when it fails,
it shows empty.
That happens when the wiper no longer makes contact with the resistance coil
or the coil breaks.
Cy Galley - Bellanca Champion Club
Newsletter Editor-in-Chief & EAA TC
www.bellanca-championclub.com
Actively supporting Aeroncas every day
Quarterly newsletters on time
Reasonable document reprints
----- Original Message -----
From: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: stupid fuel gauge question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
>
>
> If you are using the 240 ohm float type of sensor, part number 395-5T then
> when full the resistance is low.
>
> Regards,
> Trampas Stern
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of r miller
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: stupid fuel gauge question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: r miller <robertpmiller@comcast.net>
>
> O.K. I have to drill to mount my tank sending unit and I need to know
> which way is up. When the tank is full is the resistance low or high?
>
>
Message 30
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--> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/2004 8:43:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
JANWR101@aol.com writes:
> Len my name is john marshall I have one of the 8s with a 540. you can reach
>
> me at317 862 2389
>
>
John:
Thanks ... right now I am really worried about insurance. Any advice?
Len Leggette, RV-8A
Greensboro, NC N910LL
196 hrs
Message 31
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--> RV-List message posted by: Larygagnon@aol.com
I'm a Check Corp seat heater dealer, I have them in my RV6. Let me know the
dimensions of your seat and I can get you whatever you need. The single temp
units are $65.00 each and the dual temp units are $95.00 plus shipping.
Contact me off list.
Larry Gagnon
RV6 N6LG O-360/Sensenich
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Most of the nippondenso alternators cool with internal fans, one on the
front of the field and one on the rear. The airflow is from the center of
either end into the unit and out the side vents on either end.
Some honda engines turn the same way as Lycs, so the cooling is better with
these units. But I have tested both Vans 35 and 60 amp units on the test
bench and they will fry if held at their supposed rating. This gets worse
with the reversed internal fans. That is most probably because the
automotive units are rated at an intermittant duty whereas aviation units
must be rated at continuous duty.
Which is why I built up a 100 amp unit that has been tested to continuous
duty of 50 amps, without over heating, that uses a Honda 91mm field rotor
with the correct fans. This unit came from a Toyota Solara, and is slightly
larger than the Vans units.
The most common cause of rectifier failure is overheating, so you might want
to use a calibrated test device to get an accurate value on the current draw
from the alternator, particularly if you are using Vans amp gauge. The two
gauges and shunts I have from Vans are both off by 14 and 16 amps
respectively. This means it shows no charge or discharge until there is a 14
amp draw across the shunt. Both shunts read the same, but the gauges read
slightly different.
Also, 500 operational hours out of an alternator is a terrible service life,
the automotive units normally go three to four times that, which also leads
me to believe that the Vans units might be operating too hot.
It certainly wouldn't be too hard to toss a temp probe inside the unit
tucked into the armature and route it back to the cockpit for a test flight
with everything turned on for half an hour.
W
Message 33
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| Subject: | Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Reese" <waynereese@qwest.net>
You are wrong. MSL is obtained by use of current altimeter setting that
would give you a reading above the mean (average, not nasty) sea level.
At 18000 ft and above pressure altitude is used by setting 29.92. Back
in the C-124 days we used to cross the Oceans of the world at "Flight
Level 060" not 6000 ft. In Europe then (don't know about now} an
altimeter setting was given that would show you zero ft at the landing
field elevation.
Does anyone know QNE, QHE or what ever I can't remember.
Wayne
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tedd McHenry
Subject: Re: RV-List: Off Topic - Thunderbirds crash report and video
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Unless I'm wrong, in the U.S. MSL is used only above 18000 ASL, as it is
in
Canada. (In Canada we also use MSL in the arctic at all altitudes.) So
the
report probably should say ASL, not MSL.
I believe that some airshow performers set their altimeters to zero on
the
ground before a performance, so that their altitude references are
always the
same from show to show. However, I don't think teams like the
Thunderbirds do
that because, for one thing, they often perform at a different airfield
than
they take off from, and often the show box isn't at an airfield at all.
If my
memory of riding with the Snowbirds is correct, they use standard
altimeter
settings (i.e. ASL, not MSL) and brief altitudes for each performance.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
==
==
==
==
Message 34
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| Subject: | Muffin fan and firewall wire pass-through pics |
--> RV-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com
I just happened to have finished my attempt at a defroster system for the 7A
and have a photo of it on my project update site. It will defrost (I hope)
the left side.
http://users.aol.com/n67bt
My Grumman defroster is located on the left only so I figured I would do the
same for the RV, especially since the fan is so small. If I need more
pressure I will try stacking fans.
Is there a major down side to that approach?
There's also a photo of my homemade firewall wire pass-through on the site.
Bob Trumpfheller
Message 35
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"rocket-list" <rocket-list@matronics.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Blank
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN
Subject: credit ??
Your right, N561FS is totally owned by one Tom Gummo. The lockers, vents and wheel
pant modifications were posted by myself on the lists. Have not listed the
rear rudder peddles yet. I was not attempting to grab any of the glory but rather
to shun and shame Mr. Gibbons. JACK
"WE" also have an oil door that we should post for use by all.
Do Not Archive I've been properly chastised.
Message 36
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Bell" <dbell@manisteenational.com>
Fellow Builders,
I installed Heated Seats in my 8 and so far...in a cold hanger they work great...two
settings...HI and Low
I have been gone for awhile since these postings have occurred, but would be happy
to assist anyone interested. Becky Orndorf installed them for me under my
fabric and abouve the foam.
I purchased them from a company in the detroit area...I will need to get the paperwork
at the hanger and repost....I believe it is alfa sunroofs or something
like that.
Hope this helps...I will post a follow up this week
Doug bell, 8qb....really really close to being done
Manistee, MI
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Builder's Section Login |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@rv-8.com>
As one who has spent considerable hours developing a web site devoted to the
construction and operation of an RV I am compelled to comment on this also.
When I was building my RV-8 from 1997-2001 I was very pleased to find
several sites with fairly detailed construction pics. These not only proved
invaluable but also reinforced the "spirit of experimental aviation" that I
have come to know and love about this community we're all in. This spirit
goes beyond web sites, it really is like a "brotherhood" of aviators who
live by a sort of unspoken code where we all unselfishly help each other to
the extent we're able. To that end I have developed my own site... to give
back to the community, and because I am able. I receive countless "thank
you's" on my site which is tremendously gratifying (thanks to all of you for
writing, makes it all worthwhile!).
It is certainly Mr. Gibbons' prerogative to handle his site however he
chooses. It does strike me as not in keeping with the above mentioned
"spirit" however. I don't think I'm alone in this sense of community.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, 366 hrs.
EAA Technical Counselor
VP Chapter 105
webmaster of www.rv-8.com which is open to the public
> --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
>
> I just finished reading "Unlocking The Sky" about Wright vs Curtiss. I
> celebrate what the Wright Bros. were able to do HOWEVER from what I have
> read they seem to have been from the ME, ME, ME generation. Glenn Curtiss
> seems to be like the vast majority of RV & Rocket builders. Mr. Chip
Gibbons
> sounds more like a third Wright brother.
> With that said I offer my assistance, ideas, photo postings to all EXCEPT
> Mr. Gibbons. I hereby rescind any previous approval to the use postings of
> any nature made be me to ONLY Mr. Gibbons which includes but not limited
to
> MY wing tip lockers, MY tire inflation modification, MY cockpit vents, MY
> rear rudder peddles etc. Everyone EXCEPT Mr. Gibbons may use, copy,
display
> or transmit MY ideas as they see fit.
> I don't go where I'm not wanted so Mr. Gibbons can rest assured that I
will
> not attempt to contact nor view ANY of his web site data. I think that
Van,
> John and Mark have set a very high mark for each of us to strive toward.
Mr.
> Gibbons (IMNSHO) on the other hand can keep his data and his head up tight
> and locked. KABONG Do Not Archive
>
> > Re: web access to rocketclubhouse.com
> >
> > Ordinarily I wouldn't bug you with a reply, but I'm really surprised you
> > refuse to let me browse your Rocket web site. I'm curious why you'd
want
> to
> > withold information that could help other builders? That's not exactly
a
> > good way to propagate knowledge to promote quality & safety.
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> > > Yep, I'm serious. You must be an F1 builder to access the builders
only
> > > portion of my site.
> > > Chip Gibbons
> > >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> > To: "Chip Gibbons" <gibbons@cox-internet.com>
> > Subject: Re: Builder's Section Login
> > > You're serious? I can't even browse what you've got on your site
unless
> I
> > > build an F1?
Message 38
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| Subject: | ComDat GPS/VHF antenna quality |
--> RV-List message posted by: "jgburns" <jgburns@comcast.net>
In theory, practice and theory should be the same. Interesting claim from the Comant website, http://www.comant.com/comdat/comdatfaqs.html :
"Various antenna frequencies can interfere with each other. For example, VHF can
interfere with GPS, rendering GPS useless. That's why separate VHF and GPS antennas
must be at least three feet apart when mounted on an aircraft. In the
case of the combined GPS/VHF COMDATT, Comant has patented an integrated third-order
notch filter, removing the harmful VHF harmonics that interfere with GPS
reception."
If you've installed this antenna and plugged it into VHF-COM and GPS, could you
comment on the signal quality?
Cheers,
John
Message 39
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| Subject: | Kem Kromic Primer |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim/Kathy" <mac39@e-z.net>
Hi -
I have been using Sherwin Williams Rust Preventive Primer (143-0230). Gives a
nice finish and seals out moisture. It was suggested by the Sherwin Williams
sales guy that I might want to try Kem Kromic primer (B50wz1). I called Sherwin
Williams product info line and they thought it would be safe for use on aluminum
surfaces and provide good corrosion experience. My question -- any one
have experience with this primer or have any caveats? Thanks
Jim McNamara
RV-8 Wings
Message 40
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| Subject: | - Thunderbirds & Altimeter |
--> RV-List message posted by: "GMC" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
in the C-124 days we used to cross the Oceans of the world at "Flight
Level 060" not 6000 ft. In Europe then (don't know about now} an
altimeter setting was given that would show you zero ft at the landing
field elevation.
Does anyone know QNE, QHE or what ever I can't remember.
Wayne
========================================================================
Hi Wayne
If memory serves me correctly in the late 50's early 60's European airlines
asked for the "QFE" (field elevation) and the altimeter read zero on
landing. I believe that one, not all, altimeter was set to QFE and co-pilot
probably called out heights above ground or whatever their callouts were.
The introduction of more accurate radio altimeters for decision heights made
this practice redundant and I can no longer find a "QFE" in my current
aviation literature.
Now a question, will those fancy EFIS gadgets be able to show altitude in
meters?
Do not archive
George in Langley
Message 41
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| Subject: | - Thunderbirds & Altimeter |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Claude Heiniger" <cheiniger@dplanet.ch>
Of course,
All of us in Europe us QNH and QNE. QFE is on the way out, except in France
and UK, particularly for the military.
Claude Heiniger
-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]De la part de GMC
Envoy : mardi, 27. janvier 2004 07:59
: rv-list@matronics.com
Objet : RE: RV-List: - Thunderbirds & Altimeter
--> RV-List message posted by: "GMC" <gmcnutt@intergate.ca>
in the C-124 days we used to cross the Oceans of the world at "Flight
Level 060" not 6000 ft. In Europe then (don't know about now} an
altimeter setting was given that would show you zero ft at the landing
field elevation.
Does anyone know QNE, QHE or what ever I can't remember.
Wayne
========================================================================
Hi Wayne
If memory serves me correctly in the late 50's early 60's European airlines
asked for the "QFE" (field elevation) and the altimeter read zero on
landing. I believe that one, not all, altimeter was set to QFE and co-pilot
probably called out heights above ground or whatever their callouts were.
The introduction of more accurate radio altimeters for decision heights made
this practice redundant and I can no longer find a "QFE" in my current
aviation literature.
Now a question, will those fancy EFIS gadgets be able to show altitude in
meters?
Do not archive
George in Langley
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