---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/18/04: 63 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:31 AM - Re: Attaching gear legs (Jim Jewell) 2. 04:27 AM - Re: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor once? (Dana Overall) 3. 05:20 AM - Re: Attaching gear legs (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 4. 05:35 AM - Re: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor once? (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 5. 06:41 AM - Carbon Fiber Prince "P" Tip? (Dan DeNeal) 6. 07:04 AM - Re: Attaching gear legs (Neil McLeod) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: Another transponder check question... (SportAV8R@aol.com) 8. 07:48 AM - Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Bill Dube) 9. 08:24 AM - Re: leather upholstery (Jeff Dowling) 10. 08:26 AM - Re: Canopy (DAVAWALKER@aol.com) 11. 08:45 AM - RV-List Picture of Turbo Subaru 2.2 in a RV-4 (P M Condon) 12. 08:49 AM - ELT Required?? (PGLong@aol.com) 13. 08:59 AM - White Rust?? (PGLong@aol.com) 14. 09:00 AM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Tedd McHenry) 15. 09:07 AM - Re: ELT Required?? (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) 16. 09:09 AM - Re: ELT Required?? (Bruce Gray) 17. 09:09 AM - Re: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor (Tedd McHenry) 18. 09:32 AM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Scott Bilinski) 19. 09:44 AM - Re: ELT Required?? (Alex Peterson) 20. 10:18 AM - Re: White Rust?? (Stein Bruch) 21. 10:18 AM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Tracy Crook) 22. 10:21 AM - Re: ELT Required?? (Alex Peterson) 23. 10:23 AM - Re: ELT Required?? not always (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 24. 10:32 AM - Re: engines, Rotary, engines (Tracy Crook) 25. 10:40 AM - Re: Attaching gear legs (Jim Oke) 26. 10:46 AM - Re: ELT Required?? not always (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 27. 10:52 AM - Re: ELT Required?? not always (C. Rabaut) 28. 10:59 AM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Kysh) 29. 12:37 PM - Fireshield (Richard Dudley) 30. 01:47 PM - New Strobe solution... (Bill VonDane) 31. 02:11 PM - spraylat (Wheeler North) 32. 02:17 PM - Antenna drag (Wheeler North) 33. 03:17 PM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Tracy Crook) 34. 03:18 PM - Re:White Rust?? (Bob n' Lu Olds) 35. 03:25 PM - Re: New Strobe solution... () 36. 03:57 PM - Re: New Strobe solution... (Bill VonDane) 37. 04:15 PM - Making the right kit choice (Dj Merrill) 38. 04:26 PM - Re: Antenna drag (Kevin Horton) 39. 04:39 PM - Re: Antenna drag (Glenn Brasch) 40. 04:43 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Richard Tasker) 41. 04:56 PM - Re: Attaching gear legs (Mike Holland) 42. 05:11 PM - Re: Antenna drag (Larry Pardue) 43. 05:20 PM - Re: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) (Dana Overall) 44. 05:24 PM - Re: Antenna drag (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 45. 05:26 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (RVEIGHTA@aol.com) 46. 06:01 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Jim Jewell) 47. 06:05 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 48. 06:18 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Dana Overall) 49. 06:22 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Dj Merrill) 50. 06:33 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Dj Merrill) 51. 07:12 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Dj Merrill) 52. 07:21 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Glenn Brasch) 53. 07:32 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Richard E. Tasker) 54. 07:36 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (James E. Clark) 55. 08:07 PM - Re:Transponder Checks (Bob n' Lu Olds) 56. 08:10 PM - AIRCRAFT BATTERY (bruno) 57. 08:23 PM - Re: Fireshield (Cy Galley) 58. 08:29 PM - Re: Wing tip antennas (Leesafur@aol.com) 59. 08:39 PM - Re: Wing tip antennas (Leesafur@aol.com) 60. 08:52 PM - photos of front baffle seals (Dan Checkoway) 61. 09:03 PM - Re: Fireshield (Stein Bruch) 62. 09:06 PM - Re(2): Wing tip antennas (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) 63. 09:16 PM - Re: Making the right kit choice (Tedd McHenry) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:31:36 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Mike, Are the engine, and wings etc attached? If not the unit will be light enough to be lifted onto some saw horses or whatever for support. It should be light enough for three people to handle while one positions the supports. Once the legs are on it can be jacked up and down as needed. I used linked pairs of one inch wide cargo straps (the ones with the little winches) looped through some strong hooks in the ceiling to lift my fuse up off the jig. Later on I have used them to lift the engineless but finished fuse with the gear attached. A set of the heavier cargo straps would lift the fuse engine and all. Costco and others sell sets of them for a low dollar cost solution. I have a chain come along that lifts the fuse with the engine etc. installed. the ceiling in my garage is no more than nine feet high. Just be sure that the ceiling attachment points are up to the job strength wise. In the past I have lifted heavy car engines etc. in low ceiling areas by running the lift cable of a come along through a pulley mounted on the ceiling with the winch section attached to the wall. Give close attention to strong mounting points for safety reasons. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Holland" Subject: RV-List: Attaching gear legs > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" > > Any good ideas on how to lift the fuselage to attach my 9A gear? I have an engine hoist but I don't think it will lift high enough. And I don't really have a good situation for an overhead hoist either (9 foot garage ceiling). > > Thanks > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:27:13 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor once? --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: RV8ter@aol.com > >180 HP? How do you know since it's going to be your own make? Can they >burn >100LL and mogas? That's just what you get out of the engine. Yes, it will burn 100LL or mogas > >And what's the average person really going to have in one when they are >done? > You can buy a 0 time for $3800 from http://rotaryresources.com or build your own up. They are so rediculously simple, buying was not a consideration for me at all. Check tolerances, if they are not acceptable to the range or to you personnally, exchange with the above company with a core charge. You can save about 1500 to 2000 to do it yourself if you get a good core so $9500 (remember this is prop, engine mount...the works) to $11,500. >Can the PRSUs be adapted for CS props, etc? > I am using Tracy's unit at http://www.rotaryaviation.com . The plus for me is you can use wood or metal. The additional torque produced to the prop allows one to use a fixed pitch cruise prop and still generate impressive climb performance due the engine not loading up with the additional torque. Can you say "Homesick Angel":-) >How do they rate compared to the Subaru 2.5 XT head to head? That would be >interesting. 160HP standard engine with combustion having to generate power for valves, lifters, rockers, haul the other 3 cyl. around for the ride vs. 180 which is rediculously smooth, no valves, no lifters, no rockers rotors turning at 2000 RPMS with the crank turns at 6K. Hum, you do the math. Since I am a CPA I've been accused of making 2+2 equal 5 but in this case, it was "simple math". Just thinking out loud here, with a Subaru you still have a typical internal combustion engine but now you've added water and reduction..........why not just install a Lyc?? > >They may not have some components you mention but I recall from the 80s >when >a friend had an early rx7 that they did have some kind of main seal or >something unique that did need regular checkup and occasional replacing >that was a >royal pain to do. There's nothing else in the engine other than the two rotors and their seals. Look at either of the above site and you will see the seals available. I can't tell what you are referring too but the second generation engine is the engine of choice, 89-91. > >How do the rotary guys who have to roll their own figure out what to do >safely enough? The engine is proven in aviation use. While you can certainly "roll your own", enough people have gone down the path to lay valid information and products to make the install fairly painless. The following company makes the engine mounts to fit the Van's cowl. http://www.conversionconcepts.com/rv-6-7.htm . I'll be buying the mount and intake system and "spark" system. What else concerns you? > >I mean, the engine is where I generally feel the least compelled to be >"experimental" so I love lycomings in that sense. I don't even look at >Rotarys >because of the lack of a FWF package. Are all the components and a >specific >enough set of instructions available so that if you did all the purchasing >yourself >there's at least some good guidance? Are all the components needed that >are >unique premade and avaialable and it's just a matter of finding the >appropriate vendor? I think the above sites will get you going on what is available. My personnal opinion, and it's an opinion only, is if you have the mechanical ability to build an RV you have the mechanical ability to rebuild an engine. Just my opinion. > >Sounds interesting. Hope it works out! There are so many of these rotaries flying out there, the "hope" is taken out of the sentence. It should read "It works out". This certainly isn't for everyone, it is for me and money was the only issue in the decision. It worked in with simplicity of install, reliability, maintainance, replacement cost. It turned into a pretty easy decision for me. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg do not archive Say good-bye to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:20:32 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Mike, My RV-7A is sitting on 2 saw horses with a 2x4 with 2 layers of carpeting on top. I attached the carpet material with roofing nails into the sides of the 2x4s, then attached the 2x4s to the saw horses with a drywall screw at each end deeply counterbored, and not tightened, so they can tip to assume the angle of the bottom of the fuselage and spread the load evenly. You need about 31 inches off the floor to get the gear legs in. One saw horse is just behind the exhaust pipes as close to the front of the fuse as possible. The other is under the wing spar bulkhead. To get it up to this level, I used 2x6s, wood blocks, and cement blocks. Use carpeting to pad the bottom of the fuselage while raising it 1 1/2 inches at a time. The CG is close to the front saw horse and you can go to the tail end and raise it to add blocks under the rear saw horse area. Use a bottle jack under the nose gear socket padded with a block of wood to raise the front. It took probably an hour or two to raise it up enough to finally get the saw horses under it. Hope this helps. Dan Hopper RV-7A almost done in N IN In a message dated 2/18/04 12:47:21 AM US Eastern Standard Time, hollandm@pacbell.net writes: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" > > Any good ideas on how to lift the fuselage to attach my 9A gear? I have an > engine hoist but I don't think it will lift high enough. And I don't really > have a good situation for an overhead hoist either (9 foot garage ceiling). > > Thanks > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:23 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor once? --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Dana, Flying on the 28th? The 28th of what? I'm going to have mine flying on the 28th too, but I don't know of what! Cheers, Dan RV-7A almost done! In a message dated 2/17/04 7:54:31 PM US Eastern Standard Time, bo124rs@hotmail.com writes: > > No valves, no cam, no rods, no lifters.......................I'll have it at > > the flyin on the 28th. > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > Finish kit > 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg > do not archive > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:41:44 AM PST US From: Dan DeNeal Subject: RV-List: Carbon Fiber Prince "P" Tip? --> RV-List message posted by: Dan DeNeal I am posting this for a friend who is building an RV3. ----------------------------------------------------- Does anyone have a comment or advise on the Carbon Fiber Prince "P" Tip Prop? Any information on this type prop would be appreciated. I am looking at purchasing a prop like this for my RV-3B but some of the Indy guys don't have much good to say about it. I am planning on going to look at this prop on Sat. Any information you get I would like to see. This prop is one of the more expensive ones........ I want to be sure it is what I want. I need to go Fast! Thanks for your help! Thanks! Dave Sloan Operation Supervisor 3rd Shift Test, ALA, and NOPS Caterpillar, Inc. LEC Phone: (765) 448-2593 Fax: (765) 448-5897 sloandw@cat.com __________________________________ http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:02 AM PST US From: "Neil McLeod" Subject: RE: RV-List: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: "Neil McLeod" I used an engine hoist attached to the motor mount and it easily raised it high enough. I didn't even get close to my 10' ceiling. I'm building a 7, for a nosegear airplane you might need to block up the tail first. Neil -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Holland Subject: RV-List: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" Any good ideas on how to lift the fuselage to attach my 9A gear? I have an engine hoist but I don't think it will lift high enough. And I don't really have a good situation for an overhead hoist either (9 foot garage ceiling). Thanks == == == == ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:24 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Another transponder check question... --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com In a message dated 2/17/2004 6:00:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, rv6_flyer@hotmail.com writes: > The RMI MicroEncoder can be adjusted from the front panel if it needs it. > The only way you will need to pull the unit out is if it is > broken and needs > a part inside replaced. Been there, done that (you can "break" stuff in there if you allow rainwater inside the unit), but the only adjustment I am aware of, front panel or otherwise, is a new download of data table for whatever sensor might be "off" Is there something else I am not aware of? Harking back to the older thread, I believe if the calibration were ever to drift off for the encoder, the observant pilot would notice it right away when he set the altimeter to local barometer and was not reading very close to published field elevation on the ramp. Never happened to me. Like I said, if this is your sole altimeter, "correspondence" becomes an oxymoron. Still, the regs are convoluted enough to be troubling in this instance... -Bill B ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:03 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube Great post on rotary engines. At 07:25 AM 2/18/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" I am totally convinced and plan to run a rotary on my RV-7 (when it get to that point.) I'm a handy sort that enjoys fabricating custom parts etc. (I have a buddy with a 3 ton CNC machine in his garage and I love to do CAD.) I haven't been able to find much specific information on turbo-charging. I have seen a few pictures, but that is it. Does anyone have information on turbo selection, plumbing, intercooler selection, controls, etc? I was also wondering about the new Renesis rotary engine. I know I can get a factory "crate" engine, but what about the stuff that I need that won't come with the crate engine? Do ancillary parts from older engines fit? Would I be smarter in hunting up a complete used engine from overseas? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:24:08 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: leather upholstery --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Thanks for the "samples". I could upholster my house with all of these. Do you want me to send the samples after I make my choice? Im guessing yes. Can you recommend a particular line of leather for durability/rv use? Ive narrowed it down to 4 colors but dont really have a preference other than potential durability. Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: leather upholstery > --> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com > > In a message dated 1/27/2004 9:17:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, > shempdowling@earthlink.net writes: > > > Does anyone have a good source for enough leather to cover 2 seats? > > > > tia > > Jeff Dowling > > RV-6A, N915JD > > 9 hours > > Chicago/Louisville > > > > Jeff: > > I am in the furniture manufacturing business. My company does a lot of > leather business. I am producing seats right now for friends but will soon launch > the business of aircraft seats. > > I can help you with leather. We stock about 350 leathers but I am using only > one pattern for my RV seats ... very durable and has about 55 colors to > choose from. > > Let me know if you are interested. I will send you some samples. > > Len Leggette, RV-8A > Greensboro, NC N910LL > 196 hrs > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:02 AM PST US From: DAVAWALKER@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy --> RV-List message posted by: DAVAWALKER@aol.com Ed, Thanks for the response. May have already done this, can't remember. Dale Walker ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:21 AM PST US From: P M Condon Subject: RV-List: RV-List Picture of Turbo Subaru 2.2 in a RV-4 --> RV-List message posted by: P M Condon Part of the Subaru engine thread......Subaru interested RV-ers might like to see this Subaru engine in a RV-4 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:28 AM PST US From: PGLong@aol.com Subject: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com I know ELT's are required for Civil Aircraft. Does this also apply to Experimental? Pat Long PGLong@aol.com N924PL (reserved) RV4 finishing Bay City, Michigan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:51 AM PST US From: PGLong@aol.com Subject: RV-List: White Rust?? --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com Getting ready to paint my RV4 with PPG Concept. This kit has been around for almost 20 years and there is something I call white rust on some of the skins. What do I need to do to get ready for paint? I'm thinking that using Alumiprep, then Alodine, and then some hi build primer (??) to cover up any pitting may be in the aluminum. Any advise? Pat Long PGLong@aol.com N924PL (reserved) RV4 finishing Bay City, Michigan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:21 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Bill Dube wrote: > I haven't been able to find much specific information on > turbo-charging. I have seen a few pictures, but that is it. Does anyone > have information on turbo selection, plumbing, intercooler selection, > controls, etc? So far as I know, the best book on turbocharging out there is Turbocharging, by Hugh MacInnes. It's been around for years, but I don't think anybody has topped it. My edition doesn't cover rotaries, but there might be a later edition that does. I believe there are some special considerations for turbocharging rotaries. MacInnes does cover two-stroke engines in his book, and I suspect a lot of what he discusses there would apply to rotaries as well, since they are like two-strokes with respect to induction and exhaust. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:02 AM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com FAA requires ELT on all aircraft, except single place aircraft. An ELT is recommended for single place aircraft. Jim Ayers ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:05 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Yes. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PGLong@aol.com Subject: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com I know ELT's are required for Civil Aircraft. Does this also apply to Experimental? Pat Long PGLong@aol.com N924PL (reserved) RV4 finishing Bay City, Michigan Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:59 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: engines, engines, engines - wonderful to have choicesfor once? --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Dana Overall wrote: > >How do they rate compared to the Subaru 2.5 XT head to head? That would be > >interesting. > > 160HP standard engine with combustion having to generate power for valves, > lifters, rockers, haul the other 3 cyl. around for the ride vs. 180 which is > rediculously smooth, no valves, no lifters, no rockers rotors turning at > 2000 RPMS with the crank turns at 6K. Hum, you do the math. I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but just so there's no confusion you will get better SFC with the Subaru than a rotary. There are really only two drawbacks to the rotary, both inherent in the design and thus unavoidable. First, because of how they breathe they have lower BSFC than piston engines (i.e. more fuel burned to make the same amount of power). Second, the exhaust is inherently louder, and a relatively complex exhaust system is required to both produce decent power and keep the noise sane. That adds weight, cost, and heat inside the cowling. This is not a criticism of the rotary. I think it is in priniciple the best choice for an auto conversion. I wish Eggenfellner would apply his obvious skill and engineering acumen to the rotary. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:21 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski If you want to know about rotaries and turbo charging, you might contact Racing Beat in Los Angeles. They have been around a long time and know rotaries. As far as turboing a rotary it must have low compression rotors. At 09:00 AM 2/18/04 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > >On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Bill Dube wrote: > >> I haven't been able to find much specific information on >> turbo-charging. I have seen a few pictures, but that is it. Does anyone >> have information on turbo selection, plumbing, intercooler selection, >> controls, etc? > >So far as I know, the best book on turbocharging out there is Turbocharging, by >Hugh MacInnes. It's been around for years, but I don't think anybody has >topped it. My edition doesn't cover rotaries, but there might be a later >edition that does. > >I believe there are some special considerations for turbocharging rotaries. >MacInnes does cover two-stroke engines in his book, and I suspect a lot of what >he discusses there would apply to rotaries as well, since they are like >two-strokes with respect to induction and exhaust. > >Tedd McHenry >Surrey, BC >do not archive > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:19 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > FAA requires ELT on all aircraft, except single place aircraft. > > An ELT is recommended for single place aircraft. > > Jim Ayers I believe it is only needed in planes carrying more than one, regardless of the number of seats. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 438 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:30 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: Re: RV-List: White Rust?? --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Pat, The "White Rust" is what happens to Aluminum when it oxidizes, or is the Aluminum version of rust. You need to get rid of it before you paint!! Scotchbrite pads seem to work well if it's light. If it's deep, you may need to take some very fine sandpaper and remove it. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis http://www.steinair.com ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: PGLong@aol.com >--> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com > >Getting ready to paint my RV4 with PPG Concept. This kit has been around for >almost 20 years and there is something I call white rust on some of the skins. >What do I need to do to get ready for paint? I'm thinking that using >Alumiprep, then Alodine, and then some hi build primer (??) to cover up any pitting >may be in the aluminum. Any advise? > > >Pat Long >PGLong@aol.com >N924PL (reserved) >RV4 finishing >Bay City, Michigan > >Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:30 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Bill Dube wrote: > I haven't been able to find much specific information on > turbo-charging. I have seen a few pictures, but that is it. Does anyone > have information on turbo selection, plumbing, intercooler selection, > controls, etc? So far as I know, the best book on turbocharging out there is Turbocharging, by Hugh MacInnes. It's been around for years, but I don't think anybody has topped it. My edition doesn't cover rotaries, but there might be a later edition that does. I believe there are some special considerations for turbocharging rotaries. MacInnes does cover two-stroke engines in his book, and I suspect a lot of what he discusses there would apply to rotaries as well, since they are like two-strokes with respect to induction and exhaust. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC do not archive Well, there are some similarities to two strokes but none of them will apply to the turbocharging issue. They are at opposite extreams in terms of EGTs. Turbonetics has a new turbine material (better than Inconel but I can't remember the name at the moment) for high temps that I would consider a must in rotary turbos in aircraft. Having said that, I would only install a turbo if I were a masochist bent on putting myself through as much torture as possible. If the rotary were what I wanted and I needed more power, I'd go with the new Renesis rotary engine (230 HP normally aspirated) or the 20B 3 rotor (270 HP). I'm doing one of each, Renesis on the -4 to replace the 185 HP 2nd gen rotary and a 20B on the -8. Tracy Crook ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:45 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: ELT Required?? --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > --> > > > FAA requires ELT on all aircraft, except single place aircraft. > > > > An ELT is recommended for single place aircraft. > > > > Jim Ayers > > I believe it is only needed in planes carrying more than one, > regardless of the number of seats. > > Alex Peterson I stand corrected - it is required if the plane is equipped to carry more than one person. An exception is perhaps during the test flight phase of flight: (5) New aircraft while engaged in flight operations incident to their manufacture, preparation, and delivery; Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 438 hours www.usfamily.net/web/alexpeterson ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:15 AM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT Required?? not always --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" PGLong@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com > > I know ELT's are required for Civil Aircraft. Does this also apply to > Experimental? > > Pat Long > PGLong@aol.com > N924PL (reserved) > RV4 finishing > Bay City, Michigan > > Do Not Archive All experimentals don't have to have them and also all standard category planes don't either. There are some exceptions.. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:32:52 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: engines, Rotary, engines --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" > SNIP < There are so many of these rotaries flying out there, the "hope" is taken out of the sentence. It should read "It works out". This certainly isn't for everyone, it is for me and money was the only issue in the decision. It worked in with simplicity of install, reliability, maintainance, replacement cost. It turned into a pretty easy decision for me. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit I agree with Dana, the rotary engine definitely works but at the same time I will be the first to admit that, at this time, it or any other alternative engine is the wrong choice for at least 95% of aircraft builders. If you don't have a burning desire to do it, forget it. If resale value is a primary concern, forget it. If the idea just turns you on, do it! Tracy Crook 13B Rotary powered RV-4 1350+ hrs of Hmmm....... 20B powered RV-8, still hangar flying.. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:25 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke Mike; For my -6A, I shaped a couple of 2x6s to match the underside of the fuselage, spaced them about 12" apart with 2x6 crosspieces, added a sheet of 1/4" ply to form sort of a cradle, a sheet of scrap carpet for cushioning, and then used bottle jacks under the 2x6s to lift the whole works. I put some blocking in place (milk crates, scrap 2x6s, etc) to create a solid base and then lowered the "cradle" to have a firm platform to climb into the cockpit (many times!) to install the infamous -6A center section bolt set. Your -7A should be a good deal simpler than this but the cradle - bottle jack system should work to get the initial lift. Jim Oke RV-3 RV-6A Winnipeg, MB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Holland" Subject: RV-List: Attaching gear legs > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" > > Any good ideas on how to lift the fuselage to attach my 9A gear? I have an engine hoist but I don't think it will lift high enough. And I don't really have a good situation for an overhead hoist either (9 foot garage ceiling). > > Thanks > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:07 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT Required?? not always --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Be sure & check the latest regarding ELT's. Some new rules as of 1-1-04 but not sure who was affected. DP ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:08 AM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: Re: RV-List: ELT Required?? not always --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Okay Mike, step up and let us know what's the case. Do all experimental have to have ELT's or can we use the new improve personal locators? Thanks Chuck ----- Original Message ----- > > --> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com > > > > I know ELT's are required for Civil Aircraft. Does this also apply to > > Experimental? > > > > Pat Long > > All experimentals don't have to have them and also all standard category > planes don't either. There are some exceptions.. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:41 AM PST US From: Kysh Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: Kysh > I'd go with the new Renesis rotary engine (230 HP normally aspirated) > or the 20B 3 rotor (270 HP). Is there any significant weight difference between the 13B and the Renesis? What's the difference in weight for the 20B? (And where the heck did you get one? Car conversion people on the RX-7 lists seem to have trouble finding them for conversion) -Kysh Who would love to see a 3-rotor -8. RV or RX is up to the reader. -- | 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying | | CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr | | 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang | | Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ | | KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham | | Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ | ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:06 PM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: RV-List: Fireshield --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Listers, There is no question in my mind that lines carrying fuel in front of the firewall should be insulated with fireshield. My question is about using fireshield on oil lines. I am sure that there is a variety of opinions and practices out there regarding the need for or protection by fireshield on oil lines. I would appreciate your considered opinions and biases. Regards, Richard Dudley -6A final details ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:05 PM PST US From: Bill VonDane Subject: RV-List: New Strobe solution... rv8list@yahoogroups.com, vansairforce --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane Ok, I know a lot of you have been waiting for this... My new AVI-PAK strobe power pack is in production now, and should be ready to ship in a couple weeks, and I am taking pre-orders now! http://www.creativair.com/ex-stb/index.htm -Bill ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:52 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: spraylat --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Time: 09:00:29 AM PST US From: "Bruce Bell" Subject: RV-List: SPRAYLAT --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell" Has anyone applied SPRAYLAT to their canopy with a brush? What were the results? Best regards, Bruce Bell Lubbock, Texas RV4 # 2888 DO NOT ARCHIVE! one year is too much, put it on thick so it doesn't peel in shreds I put tape on top of the spraylat and that helped protect, while the spraylat kept the tape from bonding. W ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:15 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Antenna drag --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North AC43.13 2A has the formula for calculating antenna drag/load. Chapter 3 W ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:14 PM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" --> RV-List message posted by: Kysh > I'd go with the new Renesis rotary engine (230 HP normally aspirated) > or the 20B 3 rotor (270 HP). Is there any significant weight difference between the 13B and the Renesis? What's the difference in weight for the 20B? (And where the heck did you get one? Car conversion people on the RX-7 lists seem to have trouble finding them for conversion) -Kysh Who would love to see a 3-rotor -8. RV or RX is up to the reader. The Renesis is about 10 pounds lighter than the earlier 13Bs which end up weighing about the same as an O - 320 Lyc. with all systems needed to fly. This will of course depend on how weight conscious you are when planning your installation (and there is a lot of that to do). The 20B is 67 pounds heavier than earlier 13B. 20B "long block" weighs 247 lbs. 2nd & 3rd gen 13B weighs 180, Renesis is about 170. I'll know more precisely when my engine builder Bruce Turrentine delivers mine next month. That's about the only way to get one (built from parts) until Mazda catches up with demand. Crate motors will be available when they do. I'd still opt to have mine built because there are some custom things I want done inside and the price is about the same anyway. I got my 20B the same way. Tracy Crook "Sooner or later, you'll fly a rotary" : ) ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:50 PM PST US From: "Bob n' Lu Olds" Subject: RV-List: Re:White Rust?? --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob n' Lu Olds" I had some corrosion on skins and I used Scotchbrite pads and an aluminum etch and scrubbed until it was removed. I used a vinyl wash self etching primer from NAPA to prime all my inside parts. The exterior priming wasn't done until ready to paint. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X Charleston,Arkansas ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:51 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: New Strobe solution... --> RV-List message posted by: Bill, I noticed on your web site that it says the strobes must be under some type of cover. How about just the RV clear wing tip? Or is a small glass dome needed for some reason. I have your NAV LEDs & VonDanes Landing Lights and would like to keep the strobe profile low so I can mount them in the space in front of the NAV lights. I planned on just drilling the 1 inch hole and stickin' them in. Ben Cunningham RV7 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill VonDane" ; ; "vansairforce" Subject: RV-List: New Strobe solution... > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane > > Ok, I know a lot of you have been waiting for this... My new AVI-PAK strobe > power pack is in production now, and should be ready to ship in a couple > weeks, and I am taking pre-orders now! > > http://www.creativair.com/ex-stb/index.htm > > -Bill > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:57:28 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: Re: RV-List: New Strobe solution... --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" This is the solution you want... The lexan cover that comes with the wing tip is enough... This is exactly how I have then installed in my -8A: http://www.creativair.com/ex75-nav/3.jpg -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: New Strobe solution... --> RV-List message posted by: Bill, I noticed on your web site that it says the strobes must be under some type of cover. How about just the RV clear wing tip? Or is a small glass dome needed for some reason. I have your NAV LEDs & VonDanes Landing Lights and would like to keep the strobe profile low so I can mount them in the space in front of the NAV lights. I planned on just drilling the 1 inch hole and stickin' them in. Ben Cunningham RV7 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill VonDane" ; ; "vansairforce" Subject: RV-List: New Strobe solution... > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane > > Ok, I know a lot of you have been waiting for this... My new AVI-PAK strobe > power pack is in production now, and should be ready to ship in a couple > weeks, and I am taking pre-orders now! > > http://www.creativair.com/ex-stb/index.htm > > -Bill > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 04:15:41 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Hi All, I'm looking for some advice. I currently have a Glasair 1FT that I bought already built. After being around the experimental crowd for awhile, I'm considering building an airplane (whoda thunk?!) :-) I don't think fiberglass is an option for me due to the fumes and my allergies, and I choose not to build tube and fabric, or wood. I think a metal plane is the way for me. Out of all the choices, I think the RV planes are at the top of my list. I've been looking at the RV-7A and RV-9A, but I think they have some of the same limitations as my Glasair - namely lack of baggage space and/or easy access to the baggage space. So the RV-10 looks very attractive to me. The basic question I have, is the RV-10 (quickbuild) a little ambitious for a first time builder? Best guess, it looks like the RV-10 would be about $30k more than the -7 or -9 (quick build options, and engine). Is this about right? Or should I start with something a little simpler, like a Zodiac XL? Thanks, -Dj ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:05 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Antenna drag --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >AC43.13 2A has the formula for calculating antenna drag/load. > >Chapter 3 > >W > The formula in AC43.13-2A appears to be designed for antennae with a streamline shape, not a whip antenna. Looking at Fluid Dynamic Drag, by Hoerner, it seems that we can probably assume a drag coefficient (Cd) of approximately 0.5 for a whip antenna (test data in figure 13 on page 3-9). Drag is equal to the dynamic pressure times frontal area times the Cd. Dynamic pressure (lb per square foot) at sea level equals the speed in mph squared, divided by 391 (from Hoerner, eqn. 16 on page 1-10). So, if we figure out the frontal area of the antenna in square inches, we get: drag = speed squared times frontal area times Cd divided by 56,304 drag in pounds, speed in mph frontal area in square inches I don't have an antenna to measure, so I'll just make some numbers up for illustration. If we have an antenna 20 inches long, with a diameter of 3/16 inch, we get a frontal area of 20 * 0.1875 = 3.75 square inches. At 200 mph the drag would be: 200 x 200 x 3.75 x 0.5 / 56,304 = 1.3 lb. Power required = speed x force. 200 mph x 5280 ft/mile x 3600 sec/hour = 293 ft/sec. So, the power in ft-lb/sec = 293 x 1.3 = 381. One hp = 550 ft-lb/sec, so it takes 381/550 = 0.69 hp to drag that antenna around. If our prop efficiency is about 0.8, that means we need 0.69/0.8 = 0.87 engine horse power to drag that antenna. Looking at it another way, if your top speed was 200 mph without the antenna, and you had a 180 hp engine, and a prop efficiency of 0.8, then your total drag was about 180 x 0.8 x 550/293 = 270 lb. So adding that antenna would increase the drag about 1.3/270 = 0.0048, or about 0.5%. One antenna doesn't make a big difference, but if they start breeding like rabbits they would have a measurable effect. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:39:00 PM PST US From: "Glenn Brasch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Antenna drag --> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" I'm sorry, I can't resist, I think you have way too much time on your hands. Glenn in Arizona -9A DO NOT ARCHIVE > The formula in AC43.13-2A appears to be designed for antennae with a > streamline shape, not a whip antenna. > > Looking at Fluid Dynamic Drag, by Hoerner, it seems that we can > probably assume a drag coefficient (Cd) of approximately 0.5 for a > whip antenna (test data in figure 13 on page 3-9). Drag is equal to > the dynamic pressure times frontal area times the Cd. Dynamic > pressure (lb per square foot) at sea level equals the speed in mph > squared, divided by 391 (from Hoerner, eqn. 16 on page 1-10). So, if > we figure out the frontal area of the antenna in square inches, we > get: > > drag = speed squared times frontal area times Cd divided by 56,304 > > drag in pounds, > speed in mph > frontal area in square inches > > I don't have an antenna to measure, so I'll just make some numbers up > for illustration. If we have an antenna 20 inches long, with a > diameter of 3/16 inch, we get a frontal area of 20 * 0.1875 = 3.75 > square inches. At 200 mph the drag would be: 200 x 200 x 3.75 x 0.5 > / 56,304 = 1.3 lb. Power required = speed x force. 200 mph x 5280 > ft/mile x 3600 sec/hour = 293 ft/sec. So, the power in ft-lb/sec > 293 x 1.3 = 381. One hp = 550 ft-lb/sec, so it takes 381/550 = 0.69 > hp to drag that antenna around. If our prop efficiency is about 0.8, > that means we need 0.69/0.8 = 0.87 engine horse power to drag that > antenna. > > Looking at it another way, if your top speed was 200 mph without the > antenna, and you had a 180 hp engine, and a prop efficiency of 0.8, > then your total drag was about 180 x 0.8 x 550/293 = 270 lb. So > adding that antenna would increase the drag about 1.3/270 = 0.0048, > or about 0.5%. One antenna doesn't make a big difference, but if > they start breeding like rabbits they would have a measurable effect. > -- > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:31 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker It depends on what you want, how soon you want it and how much you can afford. As far as I am concerned, the RV10 just has a bit larger parts. It will require more money and more labor, but you will have to learn exactly the same skills as building any other of the RVs. If the RV10 had been available when I started I might have chosen it rather than my RV9A, although in reality the 9A will do what I need 95% of the time. My $0.02. Dick Tasker, RV9A Dj Merrill wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > >Hi All, > I'm looking for some advice. I currently >have a Glasair 1FT that I bought already built. >After being around the experimental crowd for awhile, >I'm considering building an airplane (whoda thunk?!) :-) > > I don't think fiberglass is an option for me due to >the fumes and my allergies, and I choose not to >build tube and fabric, or wood. I think a metal plane >is the way for me. Out of all the choices, I think the >RV planes are at the top of my list. I've been looking at >the RV-7A and RV-9A, but I think they have some of the >same limitations as my Glasair - namely lack of >baggage space and/or easy access to the baggage space. >So the RV-10 looks very attractive to me. > > The basic question I have, is the RV-10 (quickbuild) >a little ambitious for a first time builder? > > Best guess, it looks like the RV-10 would be about >$30k more than the -7 or -9 (quick build options, and >engine). Is this about right? > > Or should I start with something a little >simpler, like a Zodiac XL? > >Thanks, > >-Dj > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:56:43 PM PST US From: "Mike Holland" Subject: RV-List: Re: Attaching gear legs --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Holland" The fuse is on a rolling cart (carpeted) about 18" off the floor. Very convenient for wiring, etc. I'm about done with that and have been considering various options. The wings and engine are not yet installed but the engine mount, with a relatively light fuselage, is a very attractive lift point. I'm inclined to attach the engine mount to a ceiling mounted come-along and support the tail cone with the cradle, which I will move progressively rearward as the font is lifted. Once I have the mains sufficiently high to insert into the fixtures I will lower the assembly, secure the mains and finish with the nose wheel. If I don't drop the damn thing or encounter any major calamity, I'll report back to the group. Cheers, Mike Holland A 9A in the oven. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:11:58 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Antenna drag --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glenn Brasch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Antenna drag > --> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" > > I'm sorry, I can't resist, I think you have way too much time on your hands. > Glenn in Arizona -9A > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > > The formula in AC43.13-2A appears to be designed for antennae with a > > streamline shape, not a whip antenna. > > I wouldn't say Kevin has too much time on his hands, although I know he spends time in motel rooms far from home. I was just impressed, once more, with the level of expertise of CERTAIN listers. Do not archive Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:20:59 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rotary engines (was: engines, engines....) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >The 20B is 67 pounds heavier than earlier 13B. 20B "long block" weighs 247 >lbs. 2nd & 3rd gen 13B weighs 180, Renesis is about 170. I'll know more >precisely when my engine builder Bruce Turrentine delivers mine next month. > That's about the only way to get one (built from parts) until Mazda >catches up with demand. Actually I talked with Paul at Mazmart in Atlanta the other day. He told me they have 4 Renesis engines from already wrecked RX-8s. BTW, I just talked with Bruce and he is too busy on your Renesis to get mine back before the flyin on the 28th:-( Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg do not archive ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:16 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Antenna drag --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Kevin, Thanks for the explanation of how to calculate antenna drag. That was exactly the kind of information I was hoping someone on the list would share. Dan RV-7A (almost finished) ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 05:26:38 PM PST US From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Dj, you would be hard pressed to find a better kitplane than an RV, regardless of model. But, having finished an 8A, I can tell you it's a HUGE task that takes dedication, discipline and many hours of work. In my case it was mostly enjoyable, though there were some sleepless nights worrying about the problem of the day. I reckon nonone except you can answer the question of whether you can finish such a project. If you do decide on an RV though, my advice is to build a quickbuild 9A or 7A. I don't really know much about building a 10, but I do know it's bigger and most likely more complicated, and certainly more expensive. From what I've heard and read, the 9A is pretty simple to build (that may be my next project). It doesn't require jigging the empennage, nor the fuselage (am I right here 9a builders?). Walt Shipley RV-8A N314TS ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:54 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi Dj, My personal feeling is that the RV 10 is as good a place to start as any. To me these kits are almost like signing up for AME 101. The Vans instructions start with the simpler concepts of sheet metal fabrication and gradually lead you through to being the owner and maintainer of substantial aircraft that is solidly placed on the leading edge of the OBAM (Owner Built And Maintained) aircraft movement. The learning curve seems steep at first. However with great support from Vans, the various email lists, forums, EAA groups (the RAA in Canada) and the hidden resource of fellow builders in the local area things come together. The ups and downs of building an aircraft are soon (well, in my case 7 years {[;-)) left behind at a cruising speed that most certified can't touch, and at a price that is far less that the certified marketplace can ever hope to compete with. If four place non aerobatic suits your needs start there. It is up to you to think it out and buy the airframe that will provide the biggest and longest lasting grin. My "slow build" RV6-A is in the final stages of wiring and The fun and frustrations have helped me develop a warped sense of humor and some patience. With a whole group of new faces and friends thrown in for free I think I'm safe in suggesting these RV kits are one hell of a deal. I expect that my wife and I and about 80 to 100 pounds of gear will travel cross country quite well in the RV 6A. That of course includes the hand bag!!! (;-]! I don't think your far off the mark in your cost estimates. I don't think the Zodiac line or any other kit type or kind is really that much if at all any simpler in the long run. You might want to examine the re-sale values of the various finished kits and include your findings in the data that leads you to that final choice. I think the RV 10 will find a good price when done. Good flights and greased landings, Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Merrill" Subject: RV-List: Making the right kit choice > --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > Hi All, > I'm looking for some advice. I currently > have a Glasair 1FT that I bought already built. > After being around the experimental crowd for awhile, > I'm considering building an airplane (whoda thunk?!) :-) > > I don't think fiberglass is an option for me due to > the fumes and my allergies, and I choose not to > build tube and fabric, or wood. I think a metal plane > is the way for me. Out of all the choices, I think the > RV planes are at the top of my list. I've been looking at > the RV-7A and RV-9A, but I think they have some of the > same limitations as my Glasair - namely lack of > baggage space and/or easy access to the baggage space. > So the RV-10 looks very attractive to me. > > The basic question I have, is the RV-10 (quickbuild) > a little ambitious for a first time builder? > > Best guess, it looks like the RV-10 would be about > $30k more than the -7 or -9 (quick build options, and > engine). Is this about right? > > Or should I start with something a little > simpler, like a Zodiac XL? > > Thanks, > > -Dj > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:02 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 2/18/04 8:27:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time, RVEIGHTA@aol.com writes: > > Dj, you would be hard pressed to find a better kitplane than an RV, > regardless of model. But, having finished an 8A, I can tell you it's a HUGE > task that > takes dedication, discipline and many hours of work. In my case it was > mostly > enjoyable, though there were some sleepless nights worrying about the > problem > of the day. > > I reckon nonone except you can answer the question of whether you can finish > > such a project. If you do decide on an RV though, my advice is to build a > quickbuild 9A or 7A. I don't really know much about building a 10, but I do > know > it's bigger and most likely more complicated, and certainly more expensive. > From what I've heard and read, the 9A is pretty simple to build (that may be > my > next project). It doesn't require jigging the empennage, nor the fuselage > (am I > right here 9a builders?). > > Walt Shipley RV-8A N314TS > > Dj, I agree 100% with Walt. You're right about requiring no fuselage jigs, and I hear some builders don't even use wing jigs. Even though the 7A and 9A are simple to build, they still require a lot of time and there are still frustrations. I didn't go the quick build way because of the lead time (at the time). But, I have found that Van's matched hole technology is nearly perfect. This certainly makes the plane go together quicker and straighter than before, but there are still some hard areas to get through. For me, doing the metal work was very enjoyable and went fairly well. The matched holes and the step-by-step instructions keep that part of the job moving along smoothly. That took about 2 years. I'm retired and work on it about 5 hours on an average day. I'm slower than Vans average builder, I know. Doing the canopy, firewall forward, and instrument panel has taken about 1 year even with the firewall forward kit. That will be the same for a quick build, too. Having said that, I'm not sure if the quick build will save you as much time as you may think. It may have saved me about 30 percent of the time I have spent. And that is really hard to estimate because I'm sure I learned a lot of metal skills by not going the quick build route. The RV-10 looks like it may be easier around the canopy area than the -7 or -9, although I don't know that for sure -- guys? I tell people that I finally know what the hardest part of the plane is to build. They always say, "What?" And I say, "The part I'm involved in right now!" There's really a lot of truth to that. It seems like it all takes about all the talent I can come up with. But, so far, I have managed to get through every stage, and it is really beautiful. (Not just my opinion!) And I'm pretty sure it will fly this Spring. Jump in -- Van's is great to deal with and they are fine airplanes. My $.02! Dan RV-7A (Almost done) ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 06:18:51 PM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" DJ, just to add absolutely nothing to the process.....................many people call the pre-punched kits.............snap together airplanes. I proudly call myself an "assembler". We leave the builder label to the 3,4 and 6 builders (at least that's what we say in public to keep em happy:-) Seriously, you won't find an easier kit to "build" than the pre-punched RV series. Buy you some tools, order the emp then skip happily down the yellow brick road!! (Man, I've been doing way too many tax returns) Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg do not archive Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:01 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Richard Tasker wrote: > It depends on what you want, how soon you want it and how much you can > afford. As far as I am concerned, the RV10 just has a bit larger > parts. It will require more money and more labor, but you will have to > learn exactly the same skills as building any other of the RVs. Hmmm - well, "what I want" is always the hardest question to answer, isn't it? *grin* Followed by, well, okay, now that I think I know what I want, how much can I really afford? Time-wise, I am not in any position to build right now, but hope to be within the year. In that time, I'm hoping to make the choice of what to build, and when the time is right I can then make the choice when to start building. Basic thought is to buy the RV-? in pieces over the next few years, and continue flying the Glasair in the meantime. Once the airframe is far enough along, sell the Glasair to afford the engine. At least that sounds good on (virtual) paper... :-) > If the RV10 had been available when I started I might have chosen it > rather than my RV9A, although in reality the 9A will do what I need 95% > of the time. That's one of the things going through my mind as well. I think the 9A would be great for local flights, which is the majority of my flying (and about $30k cheaper), but how practical would it be to take 2 people and baggage on a week long trip? I don't think I can do it with my Glasair, and it appears that the RV-9A has about the same amount of baggage space. I'll be spending a significant amount of time examining the various RV choices at Sun-n-Fun this year hoping to answer that question (among others). -Dj ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:49 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill RVEIGHTA@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com > > Dj, you would be hard pressed to find a better kitplane than an RV, > regardless of model. But, having finished an 8A, I can tell you it's a HUGE task that > takes dedication, discipline and many hours of work. In my case it was mostly > enjoyable, though there were some sleepless nights worrying about the problem > of the day. Well, then I guess I am just as mentally warped as the next builder, since that sounds like fun to me! *grin* Seriously, though, it is a bit worrying. I keep looking at the picture on the Van's site with the quickbuild RV-7A parts laid out with the completed airplane in the background, and all I can think is, "Damn, that's a lot of pieces!!!". I'm going to sign up for a class or two, maybe do the rudder starting kit, just to see if it is something I would really enjoy. Of course, that's only the airframe. Then there is the engine and FWF, avionics and wiring, etc etc. But I'm preaching to the choir here... :-) > I reckon nonone except you can answer the question of whether you can finish > such a project. If you do decide on an RV though, my advice is to build a > quickbuild 9A or 7A. I don't really know much about building a 10, but I do know > it's bigger and most likely more complicated, and certainly more expensive. >>From what I've heard and read, the 9A is pretty simple to build (that may be my > next project). It doesn't require jigging the empennage, nor the fuselage (am I > right here 9a builders?). Whichever I pick, it would be the quickbuild for the wings and fuselage. The 10 is somewhat more complicated inside the fuselage due to the extra seats, but I think the rest of it is on par with the 7 and 9 (right?). It is definitely more expensive, which is a huge part of the vacillating between the 9A and the 10 for me. For the extra $30k, I could have some darn nice goodies in that 9A or a lot of 100LL!! :-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:12:08 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Dana Overall wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > DJ, just to add absolutely nothing to the process.....................many > people call the pre-punched kits.............snap together airplanes. I > proudly call myself an "assembler". We leave the builder label to the 3,4 > and 6 builders (at least that's what we say in public to keep em happy:-) Well, then I will call myself an assembler! *grin* I used to love Legos when I was a kid, so snap together sounds great to me! :-) > Seriously, you won't find an easier kit to "build" than the pre-punched RV > series. Buy you some tools, order the emp then skip happily down the yellow > brick road!! (Man, I've been doing way too many tax returns) Do they have the rudder starting kit for the 10? I think they have it for the 7 and 9. That's a cheap way to make sure I am up to the task. -Dj ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:27 PM PST US From: "Glenn Brasch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: "Glenn Brasch" From my own experience (or lack thereof), before I started my project I attended a EAA SportAir RV Assembly workshop. I found it well worth the time and money. Glenn in Arizona -9A wings, fuselage ordered. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dj Merrill" Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice > --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > > Dana Overall wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" > > > > DJ, just to add absolutely nothing to the process.....................many > > people call the pre-punched kits.............snap together airplanes. I > > proudly call myself an "assembler". We leave the builder label to the 3,4 > > and 6 builders (at least that's what we say in public to keep em happy:-) > > Well, then I will call myself an assembler! *grin* > I used to love Legos when I was a kid, so snap together sounds > great to me! :-) > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:36 PM PST US From: "Richard E. Tasker" Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" What you need to do is find someone near you (or near enough to fly your Glasair to) that is building an RV7 or RV9 with the matched hole construction and look at their plane and talk to them (maybe buck a few rivets if they need the help). The RV10 is essentially the same, just larger. And, yes, Van's is shipping empennage kits for the RV10, although the empennage kit for the RV10 actually includes the rear section of the fuselage if I remember correctly. If you are actually at Dartmouth (based on your email address) there are several builders in NH that would be happy to talk to you I am sure. If you want to see a really nice completed RV9A, Gary Newsted is near Nashua (close by air to you). I think that you will find that there is more baggage room than you think and, depending on your combined weights, you can probably fill the space to the top without exceeding the weight allowance (unless you pack very heavy bags!) Good Luck! Dick Tasker Dj Merrill wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill > >Richard Tasker wrote: > > > > >>It depends on what you want, how soon you want it and how much you can >>afford. As far as I am concerned, the RV10 just has a bit larger >>parts. It will require more money and more labor, but you will have to >>learn exactly the same skills as building any other of the RVs. >> >> > > Hmmm - well, "what I want" is always the hardest question >to answer, isn't it? *grin* Followed by, well, okay, now that >I think I know what I want, how much can I really afford? >Time-wise, I am not in any position to build right now, but >hope to be within the year. In that time, I'm hoping to make >the choice of what to build, and when the time is right I can >then make the choice when to start building. > > Basic thought is to buy the RV-? in pieces over >the next few years, and continue flying the Glasair in the >meantime. Once the airframe is far enough along, sell >the Glasair to afford the engine. At least that sounds good >on (virtual) paper... :-) > > > > >>If the RV10 had been available when I started I might have chosen it >>rather than my RV9A, although in reality the 9A will do what I need 95% >>of the time. >> >> > > > That's one of the things going through my mind as well. >I think the 9A would be great for local flights, which is >the majority of my flying (and about $30k cheaper), but how >practical would it be to take 2 people and baggage on a week long trip? >I don't think I can do it with my Glasair, and it appears that >the RV-9A has about the same amount of baggage space. >I'll be spending a significant amount of time examining the >various RV choices at Sun-n-Fun this year hoping to >answer that question (among others). > >-Dj > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:11 PM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" Dj, The baggage compartment of the 6/7/9 (A) has enough space to hold two of the "roll - on" travel bags of the type that initally flight attendants used. I have used such bags over the years to easily cover weeklong trips and this included trips where I was wearing suits etc. You can probably put three in there at about 25-30 lbs each. So if coverage for a weekend is what you seek then I would not worry. James [SNIP] > > That's one of the things going through my mind as well. > I think the 9A would be great for local flights, which is > the majority of my flying (and about $30k cheaper), but how > practical would it be to take 2 people and baggage on a week long trip? > ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:46 PM PST US From: "Bob n' Lu Olds" Subject: RV-List: Re:Transponder Checks --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob n' Lu Olds" This string has been as educational as a great big book would be. Thanks to all,and especially Mike for all this free training. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191x Charleston,Arkansas ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:20 PM PST US From: bruno Subject: RV-List: AIRCRAFT BATTERY --> RV-List message posted by: bruno Hello listers For the last 2 years in my RV-4,I've been using a GILL G-25S sealed recombinant battery and the last few flights I did with this battery were very troublesomes.I had to hand-propped the a/c a few times and got stucked a couple a times at remote airports. I had the battery checked today and with a full charge (13 volts) as soon as a load (150 Amps) is applied, the voltage dropped to about 8.5-9 volts. My question is: Are there any of you on the list using this type of battery and if yes, did you have any problems with it? I've checked the charging system,the starter (Skytec) and everything is fine. The battery has only about 50 hrs of used and has never been outside in the cold.(A/C is in storage for the winter) Also what type of battery would you recommend for someone doing basic aerobatic and inverted flying? The battery dimension are : 7"W X 5"D X 6" H and are very important due to installation constraints. The battery is mounted under the radio console in front of the fwd stick. Thanks you for your imputs You may replied off list if you wished Bruno Dionne C-GDBH RV-4 rv4@videotron.ca ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:51 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fireshield --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" If you have fire shield on your fuel lines, you also need fire shield on your oil lines. Both will burn. Both need protection from the hot exhaust gases. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Dudley" Subject: RV-List: Fireshield > --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley > > Listers, > > There is no question in my mind that lines carrying fuel in front of the > firewall should be insulated with fireshield. > > My question is about using fireshield on oil lines. I am sure that there > is a variety of opinions and practices out there regarding the need for > or protection by fireshield on oil lines. I would appreciate your > considered opinions and biases. > > Regards, > > Richard Dudley > -6A final details > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:17 PM PST US From: Leesafur@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip antennas --> RV-List message posted by: Leesafur@aol.com In a message dated 2/17/2004 4:36:45 PM Central Standard Time, alexpeterson@usjet.net writes: Lee, is it a com antenna? If so, even by Bob Archer's admission, it isn't very good. One of the -7A's in town has one, and he going to switch to a whip on the fuse. Alex thanks for the response. Yes, it is a com. and its sounding like I wont be using it. I'm just looking for that sleek look got any ideas? BTW. I think I seen your plane at aviation days. Had my 2 year old daughter with and now all she talks about is planes! Lee Anoka, MN RV-3 Wing ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:32 PM PST US From: Leesafur@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip antennas --> RV-List message posted by: Leesafur@aol.com In a message dated 2/17/2004 9:55:16 PM Central Standard Time, LeastDrag93066@aol.com writes: Jim Ayers RV-3 N47RV Right wingtip COM antenna Modified from the wingtip NAV antenna Hi Jim Can you tell me how you had to modify it and how well it works? Lee Anoka, MN RV-3 Wing ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:25 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: photos of front baffle seals --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I'm looking for photos of front baffle seals...that is, the baffle wall at the top front center of the engine and its transition to the cowl inlets. I've been trying to get a single piece of airseal to work along the whole "arch" there, and while it "works" it's not perfect. I'd like to see how people have done it with single or multiple strips if possible. Thanks in advance, )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:07 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fireshield --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Richard, Standard Practice is to put fire-sleeve on both the fuel and oil lines. You can do this yourself, and it's well worth it should you ever have a fire under the cowl. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis http://www.steinair.com ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Richard Dudley >--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley > >Listers, > >There is no question in my mind that lines carrying fuel in front of the >firewall should be insulated with fireshield. > >My question is about using fireshield on oil lines. I am sure that there >is a variety of opinions and practices out there regarding the need for >or protection by fireshield on oil lines. I would appreciate your >considered opinions and biases. > >Regards, > >Richard Dudley >-6A final details > > ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:11 PM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re(2): RV-List: Wing tip antennas --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Hi All, I had one of Bob Archer's NAV antenna's in the right wingtip of my RV-3. I removed the NAV/COM radio. I installed a COM radio and a GPS. So much for why I didn't need the NAV capability. The NAV antenna (and the COM antenna) has a basic "S" shape. The base of the "S" mounts to the lower surface of metal wing skin in the wingtip. The top end of the "S" is about 12" long for a NAV antenna. The top of the "S" on a COM antenna is about 10" long. Got snips? :-) Jim Ayers In a message dated 02/18/2004 8:41:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, Leesafur@aol.com writes: In a message dated 2/17/2004 9:55:16 PM Central Standard Time, LeastDrag93066@aol.com writes: Jim Ayers RV-3 N47RV Right wingtip COM antenna Modified from the wingtip NAV antenna Hi Jim Can you tell me how you had to modify it and how well it works? Lee Anoka, MN RV-3 Wing ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:04 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Making the right kit choice --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Dj Merrill wrote: > Or should I start with something a little > simpler, like a Zodiac XL? I asked a very similar question when I first joined this list back in 95. I thought of maybe building a CH601 first, since it was less money and (at the time) reputed to be easier to build. I was advised not to waste my time, but rather to start directly with the plane I wanted. (An RV-6, by the way.) I'm VERY glad I took that advice. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC DO NOT ARCHIVE