---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 03/04/04: 76 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:22 AM - Re: [PLEASE READ] Virus Laden Spam Purports To Be From Matronics... (Jim Sears) 2. 03:22 AM - Re: WTB: RV-6 (Ken Balch) 3. 03:24 AM - Re: WTB: RV-6 (Ken Balch) 4. 03:27 AM - fuel return line / Mooney engine question (lucky macy) 5. 05:06 AM - Re: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys (linn walters) 6. 05:06 AM - Re: Mounting Instruments (linn walters) 7. 05:12 AM - Re: Dynon Info (linn walters) 8. 06:04 AM - (bertrv6@highstream.net) 9. 06:06 AM - Re: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys (Bob U.) 10. 06:13 AM - . (rob) 11. 06:13 AM - . (rob) 12. 06:22 AM - Tulsa Engine Services () 13. 06:30 AM - Mag impulse assembly (George Frost) 14. 07:09 AM - Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale (Smcm75@aol.com) 15. 07:11 AM - MP/Ram Air Question (Scott Bilinski) 16. 07:21 AM - Re: fuel return line / Mooney engine question (Noel & Yoshie Simmons) 17. 07:36 AM - Re: RV-charging systems was Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys (linn walters) 18. 07:47 AM - Re: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale (Ron Walker) 19. 08:32 AM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (Ned Thomas) 20. 08:43 AM - Re: Halon fire extinguishers-size (David Carter) 21. 08:49 AM - Oshkosh Camping answer (Glen Matejcek) 22. 09:07 AM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (Scott Bilinski) 23. 09:19 AM - Re: flap motor failure (Doug Weiler) 24. 09:29 AM - Re: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys (Cy Galley) 25. 10:04 AM - Exhaust Bracket Failure (Kyle Boatright) 26. 10:04 AM - Re: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys (Bill Dube) 27. 10:14 AM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (David Carter) 28. 10:25 AM - Re: Camping at OSH (Kosta Lewis) 29. 10:53 AM - Re: Dynon Info (cecilth@juno.com) 30. 11:01 AM - RV-List New EFIS instrument add & company in Kitplanes (pcondon) 31. 11:01 AM - Re: Oshkosh Camping Question (cecilth@juno.com) 32. 11:02 AM - Honda alternator (Ned Thomas) 33. 11:32 AM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (Scott Bilinski) 34. 11:32 AM - Re: Dynon Info (Richard Tasker) 35. 12:20 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Larry Pardue) 36. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys () 37. 12:59 PM - RSVP for Carson City Fly-in (BRUCE GRAY) 38. 01:01 PM - Camping at OSH (John) 39. 01:04 PM - Engine For Sale (JusCash@aol.com) 40. 01:05 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Bill VonDane) 41. 01:09 PM - Re: Tulsa Engine Services (RV8ter@aol.com) 42. 01:16 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Smcm75@aol.com) 43. 01:58 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Laird Owens) 44. 02:06 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Larry Pardue) 45. 02:16 PM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (Kevin Horton) 46. 02:33 PM - alternators (Wheeler North) 47. 02:39 PM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (Bob U.) 48. 02:57 PM - Re: alternator cooling (Jim Jewell) 49. 03:07 PM - Re: alternators (Ned Thomas) 50. 03:46 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Stein Bruch) 51. 03:46 PM - Re: alternators (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 52. 03:55 PM - Re: Exhaust Bracket Failure (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 53. 03:56 PM - Re: Honda alternator (Bill Dube) 54. 04:01 PM - finishing up sequence of events? (RV8ter@aol.com) 55. 04:44 PM - Re: finishing up sequence of events? (Greg Young) 56. 05:08 PM - Re: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale (J. R. Dial) 57. 05:18 PM - Re: alternators (Jim Sears) 58. 05:41 PM - Re: alternators (Jerry Springer) 59. 06:35 PM - Re: finishing up sequence of events? (Vince Himsl) 60. 06:35 PM - Langley Fly-in 2004 (Tedd McHenry) 61. 07:20 PM - Re: alternator cooling (LarryRobertHelming) 62. 07:42 PM - Re: alternators (Cy Galley) 63. 07:59 PM - Help me stop my engine (Jason Sneed) 64. 08:13 PM - Re: MP/Ram Air Question (John Huft) 65. 08:18 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Jim Cimino) 66. 08:21 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Terry Watson) 67. 08:23 PM - Re: alternator cooling (Jim Jewell) 68. 08:45 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Jason Sneed) 69. 08:45 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Jason Sneed) 70. 08:59 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (linn walters) 71. 09:00 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (linn walters) 72. 09:02 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Ross Scroggs) 73. 09:25 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Jason Sneed) 74. 10:00 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Jim Jewell) 75. 11:06 PM - Re: Help me stop my engine (Dan Checkoway) 76. 11:09 PM - Re: RSA Injection Basics, was (Help me stop my engine) . (Stein Bruch) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:03 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: [PLEASE READ] Virus Laden Spam Purports To Be From Matronics... --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears I appreciate Matt's explanation. I got one yesterday that was addressed from the staff of my ISP. At the time, I was having problems with my e-mail; so, it seemed legitimate. I even had to go to the ISP's backup mailer to get my mail. I did hit that little button and really woke up my Norton software! Big red screens popped up to alert me. Thank goodness for the software. It's worth every penny I pay for it. Jim Sears in KY do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:22:27 AM PST US From: Ken Balch Subject: Re: RV-List: WTB: RV-6 --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch Hi Karie, Thanks for the tips. I'm aware of both these airplanes. The one for which you provided a link has two things going against it for me: it's a tip-up and it's WAY more than I want to spend for a -6. I've exchanged some email with Peter Booth and, while I agree it's a beautiful plane (I remember seeing it at SnF '02 and talking with Eric Newton about it for a while), it's also got a few strikes against it for me: it's a -6A, it's got an overhaul of unproven provenance (field overhaul by some random A&P to new limits? service limits? who knows?) and it's got a wood prop. Thanks for spotting these two, though!! I finished my RV-8 in 2002 and I do love building (I'm just getting started on my next project, a Pitts Model 12), but I'm looking to buy a finished and flying -6 in the next month or two. I'm in the middle of starting up an RV transition training business and will use the -6 for that purpose. No time to build one... :-) Best Regards, Ken Karie Daniel wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Karie Daniel" > >http://www.dfwrepo.com/html/rv-6.html > >Here's a link to one for sale. Also Trade-a-plane.com has this one and another one listed. Email pbooth@bellsouth.net or someone here might have a link to his web site, a beautiful plane. > >Karie Daniel >RV-7A >Sammamish, WA > >Why don't ya just build one though? Where's the fun in just buying one? :-) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Balch" >To: >Subject: RV-List: WTB: RV-6 > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch >> >>Nice, clean, low-time RV-6. 160hp or 180hp. Engine either factory new >>when plane was built, or overhauled to new limits by established shop. >>Sensenich metal prop or Hartzell c/s. Slider canopy. Brakes on both >>sides. VFR with gyros. >> >>Please email me directly with specs & pictures. >> >>Regards, >>Ken Balch >>RV-8 N118KB >>do not archive >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:31 AM PST US From: Ken Balch Subject: Re: RV-List: WTB: RV-6 --> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch My apologies to the list for not sending my last reply directly to Karie. It's six AM here and I hit send before remembering to change the reply address. do not archive Ken Karie Daniel wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Karie Daniel" > >http://www.dfwrepo.com/html/rv-6.html > >Here's a link to one for sale. Also Trade-a-plane.com has this one and another one listed. Email pbooth@bellsouth.net or someone here might have a link to his web site, a beautiful plane. > >Karie Daniel >RV-7A >Sammamish, WA > >Why don't ya just build one though? Where's the fun in just buying one? :-) > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ken Balch" >To: >Subject: RV-List: WTB: RV-6 > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Ken Balch >> >>Nice, clean, low-time RV-6. 160hp or 180hp. Engine either factory new >>when plane was built, or overhauled to new limits by established shop. >>Sensenich metal prop or Hartzell c/s. Slider canopy. Brakes on both >>sides. VFR with gyros. >> >>Please email me directly with specs & pictures. >> >>Regards, >>Ken Balch >>RV-8 N118KB >>do not archive >> >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:40 AM PST US From: "lucky macy" vansairforce@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: fuel return line / Mooney engine question --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" I have an IO-360-A1B6D from a Mooney. The markings on the FI servo said Bendix RSA-SAD1 Precision Air Motor Corp FC MAB I don't have any Lycoming/Mooney documentation with the engine. I will get an overhaul manual but I doubt it will tell me this question. Any idea if a fuel return line was used on the Mooney? Even if it wasn't used on the Mooney, would it ever a *bad* concept to implement on a RV? Does the return need to go to a fuel tank or just Teed back to the fuel line upstream of the fuel selector vavle? My tanks are *done* so I'm hopinig not to go there. thanks, lucky ----Original Message Follows---- From: "David Rogers" Subject: RE: [rv8list] Re: FloScan transducer mounting What are the pros/cons of one system over the other ? Does the Airflow Perf unit give you more HP ? How does the Bendix system eliminate the need for the fuel return ? Dave R. RV-8 (wings) -----Original Message----- From: mahlon_r [mailto:mahlon_russell@teledyne.com] Subject: [rv8list] Re: FloScan transducer mounting Brian, The Precison/Bendix fuel injection system that comes standard on a Lycoming IO-360 does not need or use a fuel return. If on the other hand, you are going to use a AirFlow performance fuel injection system the fuel return is required. Good Luck, Mahlon -- In rv8list@yahoogroups.com, "bcross2160rv8" wrote: > Hi Folks > > On this subject, I have been trying to figure out for awhile what > type of fuel valve do I require. > > I plan to use an IO360 with the Andair fuel valve. What I do not know > is if I need to get the expensive one which returns a portion of the > fuel to the tank selected? I assume that in the injected models, > some of the fuel has to be returned to tank to keep the fuel cool. I > am obviously over my head on this one & would really appreciate some > advice on this. > > Thanks very much. > > Brian #81844 > > > -- In rv8list@yahoogroups.com, "Danny King" wrote: > > Guys, > > I saw a flying RV-8 the other day with all of the fuel components > hanging on the firewall or motor mount. I ask him if he was having > any weird fuel pressure readings. He said that his fuel pressure > readings were all over the place. He had an angle valve I0360 200 hp > engine. I couldn't help but flash back to my first homebuilt. It > was a Pitts S1S with a PS-5C pressure carb and Christen Inverted > system. I mounted the Pitts electric Airborne boast pump on the > firewall along with the gascolator. All was well after that first > flight on December 15, 1983 but by the late spring of 1984 I got a > real scare when the fuel pressure started to drop. The Bendix PS- 5C > requires approx. 14 psi to work. It is kinda like a throttle body > injection (part carburetor and part fuel injection). I found that > the Texas heat, and having those fuel components on the firewall side > was incompatible! I replumbed the Pitts and moved all fuel > components to cockpit side of the firewall. All my problems went > away! > > > > When planning the Doll's fuel system, I took the lessons learned > and followed the very simple Grumman AA1 setup. The Grumman AA- 1A > I owned for 23 years DID NOT HAVE A GASCOLATOR. In fact it used a > tank drains at the low point just like the RV-8. If you drain your > tanks prior to the first flight, then there will be no water in the > system. > > Second, if all fuel system plumbing is behind the firewall, there > will be no vapor lock (fuel boiling) problems. The Doll is set up > this way. After the (through the firewall) fitting, there is a 303 > hose to the engine fuel pump, and the rest is the way Lycoming ships > the engine to you! > > > > I also had a fuel flow transducer in my Grumman AA1-A. It was > mounted just after the fuel valve, and it work perfectly! So I put > the transducer in the Doll right after the elbow fitting coming out > of the bottom of the fuel valve. Nearly 400 hours later, you guessed > it... it works perfectly! When I refuel, the total fuel to refill > the Doll, and the amount used on the Electronics International fuel > computer are within 1/10 of a gal. > > > > I decided to aim the vent line tubes strait down, and I did not > turn them into the slip stream. I cut them off at an angle to cause > some pressurization. I thought about the bug issue as well. > > > > I'm not an engineer, and I am not saying that I did it the best > way. Therefore, I only offer this as a away that I have found to be > successful on my former Grumman AA1-A, Pitts S1S, and the Doll. > > > > Danny King > > Beautiful Doll 80434 > > =========================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jross10612@a... > > To: rv8list@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: chaskuss@y... > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:32 AM > > Subject: [rv8list] FloScan transducer mounting > > > > > > Charlie: > > > > I have my FloScan transducer mounted between the fuel injector > servo and the > > distribution block. It is mounted on a small plate that I made; > that plate > > meets at two tubes in the engine mount and is attached by two > Adel clamps. > > Flexible hose (firesleeved) is used to run in and out of the > transducer, with > > straight fittings on the transducer itself. There is a gently > curved fitting on the > > flexible hose on the outlet side. I have a blast tube pointed at > the > > transducer, which runs to the top rear engine baffle. Between the > engine mounts, Adel > > clamp rubber and flexible fuel lines, I think I have the > vibration problem > > under control. The cooling should be a non issue because of the > blast tube. (At > > least when there is airflow when moving) > > > > There really is no place to put the FloScan transducer which > meets all > > concerns we can think of. Talk to Don Rivera at Airflow > Performance and he will tell > > you not to install one at all; he is just too concerned about > bubbles and > > cavitation. > > > > I have tried to pick a place to mount the transducer that meets > all > > requirements as best as possible. I fully agree with your > comments about the thermal > > concerns of a transducer that is made of several materials, but > I've tried to > > minimize that issue as best that I can. The blast tube in the > photo of the > > installation is not seen well in the photo due to the engine lord > mount. > > > > > > > > Anyway, roll your own and don't go too crazy trying to engineer > every issue > > into a solution that considers everything. > > > > I have a wing root mounted gascolator. I'm thinking about > removing it because > > it may be of dubious value. All of the plumbing and potential for > leaks may > > well negate the benefit of the gascolator. But old ideas die > hard, and the > > gascolator is a place for filtration and for water to settle out > as fuel passes > > through it. But then all of the turns in the tubing, gentle as > they are may be a > > place for fuel turbulence to start. I'll probably leave it in > because of the > > filter in the gascolator and he fact that I have not installed > any other > > filter. On the other hand Danny King (as well as others) have > been operating just > > fine without a gascolator. > > > > My point is that if you talk to a fuel system engineer (like > Caesar Gonazales > > of Cessna fame) and follow all of the engineering principles and > accepted > > practices when designing a fuel system you will end up with a > compromise > > somewhere. One of the things about the RV airplanes is the poorly > designed fuel vent > > system. It's a major no-no to use 1/4 " fuel vent lines simply > because a single > > drop of water may freeze in the vent line and cause fuel flow > problems. > > Couple this with the fuel vents facing forward into the > slipstream on the RV-8 and > > you have a real potential for fuel vent icing if you were to fly > into any > > freezing rain. Or maybe even bugs on a hot day could obstruct the > fuel vent. But > > then the RV-8 was intended to be a VFR sport plane and not to be > flown IFR. > > > > If I had it to do over I'd put 3/8" fuel vent lines in my > airplane. Why Van > > did not do this in the first place is puzzling. On the other > hand, we don't > > seem to hear about fuel vent problems on the RV airplanes either. > > > > Anyway, just food for thought. > > > > Jon Ross > > 80094 Wing Paint > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Information exchange for builders of Vans Aircraft RV-8 kits. > > > > IF YOU WISH TO UNSUBSCRIBE, PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO : > > > > rv8list-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---------- > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rv8list/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > rv8list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Information exchange for builders of Vans Aircraft RV-8 kits. IF YOU WISH TO UNSUBSCRIBE, PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO : rv8list-unsubscribe@egroups.com _____ * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rv8list/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rv8list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:03 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Cy Galley wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > >I am fairly sure without the "ballast" of the battery, your regulator will >quickly give up the ghost. > This hasn't been my (limited) experience. It may be due to differences in regulators or due to the fact that there was some load available, although the battery wasn't part of it. I don't see any reason, technically, for the system to run away with a fully functioning regulator. Maybe someone else can help out here. >I know the battery filters out the ripple of the >current and many electrical noises within the system. > The diode array in the alternator does 99% of the ripple removing. Under full load, the remaining ripple may become noticeable in cheap intercoms etc. It is true that the battery will filter some of the crap that ends up on the power bus, but it's a poor filter .... otherwise we wouldn't be chasing strobe and flasher noise. In this case 'it all depends' may be useful as electrical systems are, by their nature, terribly dynamic. Linn > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh >Editor, EAA Safety Programs >cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org > >Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:06:46 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Mounting Instruments --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Vanremog@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com > >In a message dated 3/3/2004 6:56:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, >lwalters2@cfl.rr.com writes: >Typically the instruments are mounted with black anodized brass screws. > >Linn meant black oxided brass screws. Brass can't be anodized. > This is true! Brain f--t!!! Mea Culpa! My apologies. Linn do not archive > > >GV (RV-6A N1GV flying 675 hrs) > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:36 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Info --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Mickey Coggins wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > >Speaking of show specials - is this pretty common? > Yes. You can bargain a little better towards the end of the show if they have the stuff in stiock. they don't want to pack it all up, haul it 'home' and then unpack it again! You can always get a price at one vendor, have him write it on a business card and leverage another vendor. Walking back and forth a few times can be rewarding ..... but also a waste of time. >I've got a lot of stuff to buy, and I can wait >until SNF. Do people usually require cash or >can you "buy" and then have them ship and pay >for it later? > Actually, I've done it both ways. You can buy it at the show and have it shipped from their home base and avoid sales tax (in FL) most of the time. Linn > >Thanks, >Mickey > > > > >>Don't know if they will have a "show special" price, but one >>can hope... :-) >> >> > >-- >Mickey Coggins >http://www.rv8.ch/ >#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:04:34 AM PST US From: bertrv6@highstream.net --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Hi: Have a question, I see there are 3 sizes of halon extinguishers, what is best size use for our rv6? Comments appreciated Bert rv6a Do Not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:13 AM PST US From: "Bob U." Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." linn walters wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > >Cy Galley wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" >> >>I am fairly sure without the "ballast" of the battery, your regulator will >>quickly give up the ghost. >> >> >> >This hasn't been my (limited) experience. It may be due to differences >in regulators or due to the fact that there was some load available, >although the battery wasn't part of it. I don't see any reason, >technically, for the system to run away with a fully functioning >regulator. Maybe someone else can help out here. > I've had a regulator "give up the ghost" with diasterout results and expensive results, so it DOES happen. > > > >>I know the battery filters out the ripple of the >>current and many electrical noises within the system. >> >> >> >The diode array in the alternator does 99% of the ripple removing. >Under full load, the remaining ripple may become noticeable in cheap >intercoms etc. It is true that the battery will filter some of the crap >that ends up on the power bus, but it's a poor filter .... otherwise we >wouldn't be chasing strobe and flasher noise. In this case 'it all >depends' may be useful as electrical systems are, by their nature, >terribly dynamic. > >Linn > A battery provides "ripple free" DC. The alternator cannot. For my money, I prefer to think of the battery as the provider of electrical power and the alternator to keep the battery charged. YMMV. Bob ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:00 AM PST US From: "rob" "Rv8-List" , "Rv9-List" , "Rv-List" Subject: RV-List: . --> RV-List message posted by: "rob" ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:04 AM PST US From: "rob" Subject: RV-List: . --> RV-List message posted by: "rob" ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:22:42 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Tulsa Engine Services From: --> RV-List message posted by: >>>>Listers, What was the name of the engine shop in Oklahoma mentioned recently on the list? I couldn't find it in the archives. Thanks, Dan RV-7A (almost done) >>>>> Sounds like you are doing your own rebuild. I just did that so I thought I'd give you a run down on what I found. Maybe it will benefit someone. If you want your steel parts refurbed in Tulsa you are looking for Aircraft Specialties Inc. They did all of my internal parts, resurfaced everything and yellow tags for everything for $1800.00 . They sold me a rebuild kit that contains all hardware you'll need for $800.00. There's your bottom end overhaul. BTW, most of the cost is the connecting rod bolts. Ouch! My cases were done by Divco. For $700.00 they line bore, check for cracks, resurface everything. They are absolutely beautiful when you get them back. Next engine, I will do the same thing, but I might be tempted to give ole Monte Barret a call and ask him how much he wants to assemble and test the thing. Monte builds high perf competition aerobatic engines. He's right next door to Aircraft Specialties. He chased down some parts for me and was great to work with and was more than reasonable. Basically you could disassemble your engine ship it off and get back a fresh engine. You would be skipping the markup the builders charge you to ship your parts out. When a builder ships a crank out, from my experience, they charge you near double the cost of the machine shops price. If you have a bendix fuel injection, Air Flow Performance made my entire FI system brand spanking new for $650.00, they replace everything but the body. For Mags I found a guy named Howard Libersky in Okechobee, Fl that rebuilt each mag completely for $120.00 flat out. He's been doing mags since they were cutting edge technology. His number is (863-467-6464). I put new ECI Titan cylinders on since it was not much more than having my old work cylinders reworked. All told, I figure I've got about $13,500.00 invested and I'm damn confident in my engine (big thanks to Charlie Kuss). Hope it helps Eric Henson ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:30:20 AM PST US "Rv8-List" , "Rv9-List" , "Rv-List" From: George Frost Subject: RV-List: Mag impulse assembly --> RV-List message posted by: George Frost I need an impulse assembly for a slick magneto, part number M3529. Anyone have an extra one for sale or can suggest a source? AC Spruce is out of stock. George ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:09:50 AM PST US From: Smcm75@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale --> RV-List message posted by: Smcm75@aol.com Hey guys: I have an unused Van's seat cushion kit in the original box for sale. Paid $195 will let go for $160 and I will pay the shipping in the US. Interested please call 703-724-0874 0900 to 1800 EST Thanks, Scott Morrow ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:31 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" MP increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice appreciated. Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:25 AM PST US From: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" Subject: RE: RV-List: fuel return line / Mooney engine question --> RV-List message posted by: "Noel & Yoshie Simmons" Lucky My Bendix RSA-???? does not need a return line the continental fuel injection is the one that needs the return line. Noel -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of lucky macy vansairforce@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: fuel return line / Mooney engine question --> RV-List message posted by: "lucky macy" I have an IO-360-A1B6D from a Mooney. The markings on the FI servo said Bendix RSA-SAD1 Precision Air Motor Corp FC MAB I don't have any Lycoming/Mooney documentation with the engine. I will get an overhaul manual but I doubt it will tell me this question. Any idea if a fuel return line was used on the Mooney? Even if it wasn't used on the Mooney, would it ever a *bad* concept to implement on a RV? Does the return need to go to a fuel tank or just Teed back to the fuel line upstream of the fuel selector vavle? My tanks are *done* so I'm hopinig not to go there. thanks, lucky ----Original Message Follows---- From: "David Rogers" Subject: RE: [rv8list] Re: FloScan transducer mounting What are the pros/cons of one system over the other ? Does the Airflow Perf unit give you more HP ? How does the Bendix system eliminate the need for the fuel return ? Dave R. RV-8 (wings) -----Original Message----- From: mahlon_r [mailto:mahlon_russell@teledyne.com] Subject: [rv8list] Re: FloScan transducer mounting Brian, The Precison/Bendix fuel injection system that comes standard on a Lycoming IO-360 does not need or use a fuel return. If on the other hand, you are going to use a AirFlow performance fuel injection system the fuel return is required. Good Luck, Mahlon -- In rv8list@yahoogroups.com, "bcross2160rv8" wrote: > Hi Folks > > On this subject, I have been trying to figure out for awhile what > type of fuel valve do I require. > > I plan to use an IO360 with the Andair fuel valve. What I do not know > is if I need to get the expensive one which returns a portion of the > fuel to the tank selected? I assume that in the injected models, > some of the fuel has to be returned to tank to keep the fuel cool. I > am obviously over my head on this one & would really appreciate some > advice on this. > > Thanks very much. > > Brian #81844 > > > -- In rv8list@yahoogroups.com, "Danny King" wrote: > > Guys, > > I saw a flying RV-8 the other day with all of the fuel components > hanging on the firewall or motor mount. I ask him if he was having > any weird fuel pressure readings. He said that his fuel pressure > readings were all over the place. He had an angle valve I0360 200 hp > engine. I couldn't help but flash back to my first homebuilt. It > was a Pitts S1S with a PS-5C pressure carb and Christen Inverted > system. I mounted the Pitts electric Airborne boast pump on the > firewall along with the gascolator. All was well after that first > flight on December 15, 1983 but by the late spring of 1984 I got a > real scare when the fuel pressure started to drop. The Bendix PS- 5C > requires approx. 14 psi to work. It is kinda like a throttle body > injection (part carburetor and part fuel injection). I found that > the Texas heat, and having those fuel components on the firewall side > was incompatible! I replumbed the Pitts and moved all fuel > components to cockpit side of the firewall. All my problems went > away! > > > > When planning the Doll's fuel system, I took the lessons learned > and followed the very simple Grumman AA1 setup. The Grumman AA- 1A > I owned for 23 years DID NOT HAVE A GASCOLATOR. In fact it used a > tank drains at the low point just like the RV-8. If you drain your > tanks prior to the first flight, then there will be no water in the > system. > > Second, if all fuel system plumbing is behind the firewall, there > will be no vapor lock (fuel boiling) problems. The Doll is set up > this way. After the (through the firewall) fitting, there is a 303 > hose to the engine fuel pump, and the rest is the way Lycoming ships > the engine to you! > > > > I also had a fuel flow transducer in my Grumman AA1-A. It was > mounted just after the fuel valve, and it work perfectly! So I put > the transducer in the Doll right after the elbow fitting coming out > of the bottom of the fuel valve. Nearly 400 hours later, you guessed > it... it works perfectly! When I refuel, the total fuel to refill > the Doll, and the amount used on the Electronics International fuel > computer are within 1/10 of a gal. > > > > I decided to aim the vent line tubes strait down, and I did not > turn them into the slip stream. I cut them off at an angle to cause > some pressurization. I thought about the bug issue as well. > > > > I'm not an engineer, and I am not saying that I did it the best > way. Therefore, I only offer this as a away that I have found to be > successful on my former Grumman AA1-A, Pitts S1S, and the Doll. > > > > Danny King > > Beautiful Doll 80434 > > =========================== > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Jross10612@a... > > To: rv8list@yahoogroups.com > > Cc: chaskuss@y... > > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 7:32 AM > > Subject: [rv8list] FloScan transducer mounting > > > > > > Charlie: > > > > I have my FloScan transducer mounted between the fuel injector > servo and the > > distribution block. It is mounted on a small plate that I made; > that plate > > meets at two tubes in the engine mount and is attached by two > Adel clamps. > > Flexible hose (firesleeved) is used to run in and out of the > transducer, with > > straight fittings on the transducer itself. There is a gently > curved fitting on the > > flexible hose on the outlet side. I have a blast tube pointed at > the > > transducer, which runs to the top rear engine baffle. Between the > engine mounts, Adel > > clamp rubber and flexible fuel lines, I think I have the > vibration problem > > under control. The cooling should be a non issue because of the > blast tube. (At > > least when there is airflow when moving) > > > > There really is no place to put the FloScan transducer which > meets all > > concerns we can think of. Talk to Don Rivera at Airflow > Performance and he will tell > > you not to install one at all; he is just too concerned about > bubbles and > > cavitation. > > > > I have tried to pick a place to mount the transducer that meets > all > > requirements as best as possible. I fully agree with your > comments about the thermal > > concerns of a transducer that is made of several materials, but > I've tried to > > minimize that issue as best that I can. The blast tube in the > photo of the > > installation is not seen well in the photo due to the engine lord > mount. > > > > > > > > Anyway, roll your own and don't go too crazy trying to engineer > every issue > > into a solution that considers everything. > > > > I have a wing root mounted gascolator. I'm thinking about > removing it because > > it may be of dubious value. All of the plumbing and potential for > leaks may > > well negate the benefit of the gascolator. But old ideas die > hard, and the > > gascolator is a place for filtration and for water to settle out > as fuel passes > > through it. But then all of the turns in the tubing, gentle as > they are may be a > > place for fuel turbulence to start. I'll probably leave it in > because of the > > filter in the gascolator and he fact that I have not installed > any other > > filter. On the other hand Danny King (as well as others) have > been operating just > > fine without a gascolator. > > > > My point is that if you talk to a fuel system engineer (like > Caesar Gonazales > > of Cessna fame) and follow all of the engineering principles and > accepted > > practices when designing a fuel system you will end up with a > compromise > > somewhere. One of the things about the RV airplanes is the poorly > designed fuel vent > > system. It's a major no-no to use 1/4 " fuel vent lines simply > because a single > > drop of water may freeze in the vent line and cause fuel flow > problems. > > Couple this with the fuel vents facing forward into the > slipstream on the RV-8 and > > you have a real potential for fuel vent icing if you were to fly > into any > > freezing rain. Or maybe even bugs on a hot day could obstruct the > fuel vent. But > > then the RV-8 was intended to be a VFR sport plane and not to be > flown IFR. > > > > If I had it to do over I'd put 3/8" fuel vent lines in my > airplane. Why Van > > did not do this in the first place is puzzling. On the other > hand, we don't > > seem to hear about fuel vent problems on the RV airplanes either. > > > > Anyway, just food for thought. > > > > Jon Ross > > 80094 Wing Paint > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > > > > > > Information exchange for builders of Vans Aircraft RV-8 kits. > > > > IF YOU WISH TO UNSUBSCRIBE, PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO : > > > > rv8list-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > > > > > > -- > ---------- > > > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rv8list/ > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > > rv8list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > of > Service. > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Information exchange for builders of Vans Aircraft RV-8 kits. IF YOU WISH TO UNSUBSCRIBE, PLEASE SEND AN EMAIL TO : rv8list-unsubscribe@egroups.com _____ * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rv8list/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: rv8list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Find things fast with the new MSN Toolbar includes FREE pop-up blocking! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200414ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:16 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-charging systems was Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Bob U. wrote: >I've had a regulator "give up the ghost" with diasterout results and >expensive results, so it DOES happen. > Oh yeah! I feel your pain. >>I know the battery filters out the ripple of the >>current and many electrical noises within the system. >> >A battery provides "ripple free" DC. >The alternator cannot. > Blow some diodes in the bridge and see how ripple free that battery gets you! You'll hear whine in your headset that varies with engine RPM, and the only way to get rid of it is to replace the diode stack. Like I said, the battery will help with fine ripple, but just can't step up to the plate if the ripple is significant. The diode stack is pretty good at rectifying the AC (alternators by nature are AC, Generators DC) and reduces the ripple down to almost zip and the battery can take care of the rest. >For my money, I prefer to think of the battery as the provider >of electrical power and the alternator to keep the battery charged. > While the engine is running and the alternator is online, the alternator is supplying battery recharge current and all load current. If, by some malfunction, the alternator output (nominally 13.6V) drops below battery voltage (nominally 12V), then the battery would be supplying some of the load current, the amount depending on how low the alternator output gets. >YMMV. > If you want to protect your pricey radios from a runaway alternator scenario, get the overvoltage protector from http://www.aeroelectric.com/ Linn do not archive > >Bob > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:47:11 AM PST US From: "Ron Walker" Subject: Re: RV-List: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" This is probably the 3rd or 4th time i've seen someone selling their Van's seat cushions in the past few months. Is there something about them that is disliked ? What are you guys going with instead ? I'm curious because I'm at the point of needing some cushions and perhaps you guys have some insight to share ? Ron ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:46 AM PST US From: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> Hi Scott, I am still learning about these things but maybe I can help. I'm curious how you deduced the 1" MP increase due to ram air? It is interesting because at 170 mph you can expect about 1" of mercury pressure available at the air box. This can be calculated based on the formula for the dynamic pressure of a fluid where P = (V**2 d)/288 g where: P = lbs per sq. inch (psi) V = Velocity in feet per second (1mph = 1446 fps) d = density of air in pounds pwe cu. ft., standard sea level air density 0.0762 pounds per cubic foot. g = acceleration of gravity in feet per second (32.2 feet per second) Based on this formulation at: 170 mph =~1"hg 300 mph =~3"hg To increase your Ram air pressure you can eliminate pressure drops, across air filters, induction systems, etc. For example a poorly designed air box may have a large pressure drop. Porting of the intake manifold and intake chambers on the head can help reduce pressure drop. Keep in mind that you are working with rather small increases in performance here for increasingly higher dollar costs. If you have the Van's FAB then you probably have a very low psi drop air box already. Your Fellow RV Enthusiast, Ned ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Bilinski" Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what > can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" MP > increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger > FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice > appreciated. > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:28 AM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: RV-List: Re: Halon fire extinguishers-size --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Bert, I assume you are talking about the hand-held extinguishers. There should be an FAA recommendation or requirement (for those "other" airplanes) that would provide a reasonable value of size. The Cessna 172 that I fly has an extinguisher on the floor between the seats - about a foot long. Probably any aviation mechanic could tell you the size. On the other hand, I'm planning to put in a wand system in my engine compartment to kill any fire that starts up there. Haven't decided how big a tank yet - want about 15 seconds total discharge time, if I remember correctly. David ----- Original Message ----- From: > --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net > > > Hi: > > Have a question, I see there are 3 sizes of halon extinguishers, what > is best size use for our rv6? > > > Comments appreciated > > > Bert > rv6a ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:33 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RV-List: Oshkosh Camping answer --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" You forgot to mention that the air mattress will float during the requisite annual deluge! do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:06 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Dont remember where I came up with 1"???? Somewhere somebody posted the calculated pressure available at 8k density alt for a standard day?. Well we have had a few standard days here in the last month, I checked and saw 1" more than calculated at 185 MPH. Have no idea if this is right. I have paid real attention to detail on sealing up everything I can on the air box. It pained me to even add the drain hole for the FAB. Now after all this I just remember I was told that you cannot use the barometric pressure as a comparison/base line to MP. Any info on this? How and why are they different? If barometric pressure is 30.0 would max manifold pressure also be the same barring any losses in the system? At 10:34 AM 3/4/04 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> > >Hi Scott, > >I am still learning about these things but maybe I can help. I'm curious >how you deduced the 1" MP increase due to ram air? It is interesting because >at 170 mph you can expect about 1" of mercury pressure available at the air >box. This can be calculated based on the formula for the dynamic pressure of >a fluid where > >P = (V**2 d)/288 g > >where: > > P = lbs per sq. inch (psi) >V = Velocity in feet per second (1mph = 1446 fps) >d = density of air in pounds pwe cu. ft., standard sea level air density >0.0762 pounds per cubic foot. >g = acceleration of gravity in feet per second (32.2 feet per second) > >Based on this formulation at: > >170 mph =~1"hg >300 mph =~3"hg > >To increase your Ram air pressure you can eliminate pressure drops, across >air filters, induction systems, etc. For example a poorly designed air box >may have a large pressure drop. Porting of the intake manifold and intake >chambers on the head can help reduce pressure drop. Keep in mind that you >are working with rather small increases in performance here for increasingly >higher dollar costs. If you have the Van's FAB then you probably have a very >low psi drop air box already. > >Your Fellow RV Enthusiast, >Ned > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Bilinski" >To: >Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >> >> Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what >> can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" >MP >> increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger >> FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice >> appreciated. >> >> >> Scott Bilinski >> Eng dept 305 >> Phone (858) 657-2536 >> Pager (858) 502-5190 >> do not archive >> >> > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:04 AM PST US From: "Doug Weiler" Subject: Re: RV-List: flap motor failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" > I have just 30 hours on my RV6 and had a flap motor failure today, could not extend flaps, landed & got to the flap motor, gave it a rap while holding switch and flaps extended. I know others have had failures according to archives but this should not be happening. Has Van's been known to be exchanging or upgrading these kit motors of 3-4 years old? I have cleaned the contacts, but how long will that last? > > Dave Ford > RV6 I to have had this problem. On the advice of Van's I clean it and then applied one (just ONE!!!) drop of Three-In-One oil to the top of the flap motor shaft. No problems since (in the RV-4, the motor is mounted vertically which makes this easy). Doug Weiler MN Wing ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:31 AM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" How can you get the battery out of the circuit? It must be there for no other reason than to excite the field. STATOR Surrounding the rotor is another set of coils, three in number, called the stator. The stator is fixed to the shell of the alternator, and does not turn. As the rotor turns within the stator windings, the magnetic field of the rotor sweeps through the stator windings, producing an electrical current in the windings. Because of the rotation of the rotor, an alternating current is produced. As, for example, the north pole of the magnetic field approaches one of the stator windings, there is little coupling taking place, and a weak current is produced, As the rotation continues, the magnetic field moves to the center of the winding, where maximum coupling takes place, and the induced current is at its peak. As the rotation continues to the point that the magnetic field is leaving the stator winding, the induced current is small. By this time, the south pole is approaching the winding, producing a weak current in the opposite direction. As this continues, the current produced in each winding plotted against the angle of rotation of the rotor has the form shown in figure 2. The three stator windings are spaced inside the alternator 120 degrees apart, producing three separate sets, or "phases," of output voltages, spaced 120 degrees apart, as shown in figure 3. OUTPUT DIODES A/C voltage is of little use in a D/C system, such as used in an airplane, so it has to be converted to D/C before it can be used. This conversion to D/C takes place in the "output diodes" and in the "diode trio." Diodes have the property of allowing current to flow in only one direction, while blocking current flow in the other direction. The output diodes consist of six diodes, one pair for each winding. One of the pair is for the negative half cycle, and the other for the positive half cycle. As a result of this diode rectification, the output of the alternator looks as shown in figure 4. Surprisingly enough, the output of the alternator is not a pure D/C as one might expect, but a pulsating D/C. Because there are three windings, each with a positive and a negative half, by the time the voltage is passed through the diodes, there are six pulsations for each rotation of the rotor. This is close enough to D/C for most automotive components. Critical components, such as radios, have their own internal filtering circuits to further smooth out the waveform to a purer D/C. This doesn't look like your quoted 99% to me. ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn walters" Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys > --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > > Cy Galley wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > >I am fairly sure without the "ballast" of the battery, your regulator will > >quickly give up the ghost. > > > This hasn't been my (limited) experience. It may be due to differences > in regulators or due to the fact that there was some load available, > although the battery wasn't part of it. I don't see any reason, > technically, for the system to run away with a fully functioning > regulator. Maybe someone else can help out here. > > >I know the battery filters out the ripple of the > >current and many electrical noises within the system. > > > The diode array in the alternator does 99% of the ripple removing. > Under full load, the remaining ripple may become noticeable in cheap > intercoms etc. It is true that the battery will filter some of the crap > that ends up on the power bus, but it's a poor filter .... otherwise we > wouldn't be chasing strobe and flasher noise. In this case 'it all > depends' may be useful as electrical systems are, by their nature, > terribly dynamic. > > Linn > > > > >Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh > >Editor, EAA Safety Programs > >cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org > > > >Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:05 AM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Looks like the exhaust hanging hardware on my airplane needs to be changed every 100 hours or so. When I pulled the cowl for my condition inspection, I found that one of the angles in the Vetterman exhaust hanging system had failed. That was at about 220 hours. Previously (at about 100 hours in service) I experienced a failure in the previous version of the exhaust hanging system. Has anyone worked out an exhaust hanging system that is reliable over the long term? Tom at Van's indicated that lots of folks have experienced failures in this area over the years, despite numerous revisions in the hardware and attachement of the hangars. Thanks in advance, KB ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:50 AM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 09:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > >It works regardless of rotation so there is no need to remove. Might not be >as efficient but at 6000 rpm it doesn't make any difference. Honda spins the engine backwards from everyone else. Why use a Honda alternator when every other brand in the world spins in the correct direction? ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:43 AM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Scott, I bought "Speed with Economy", subtitle "Experimental Aircraft Performance Improvement" by Kent Paser, 1994. Bought direct from him: Paser Publications, 5672 West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, Colorado 80123. Cost me $28.45 in 1990. Chapter 3, Engine Intake System Modifications. Pg 52, "the use of propellor pressure pulses to augment the ram air flow into the cowl carburetor air scoop. Pg 55 describes, qualitatively, the 5 design factors he incorporated. You are on the right track. 1" is great. Increased over what? I see MAP 2" below station pressure with an oiled foam air filter and only 1" below station pressure with a paper filter. With special air intake ducts, some guys are seeing 1 to 2" OVER station pressure - don't know if they use a filter or not. Engine (valves) won't last long with no filter - grit gets onto valve seats and then valves burn rapidly due to hot gas blow-by. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Bilinski" Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what > can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" MP > increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger > FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice > appreciated. > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:32 AM PST US From: "Kosta Lewis" Subject: RE: RV-List: Camping at OSH --> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" I have camped at OSH every year for the past, what 16? years I suppose. I have seen tents come and go, literally (Hey, isn't that Dave's tent rolling by over there?). The best I have found for relatively little money for what you get are the Cabela tents, specifically the Alaskan Guide Model. I have the 4 man for me, myself and I and my wife when she can come. Holds everything I cram in it. At OSH it can RAIN which will get in your tent. My Cabela's is the driest I have used or seen. It also can BLOW there, either nature or some twin trying to blast himself out of his tire ruts. The Cabela tents can be secured at multiple points and stay put. Search the archives under CAMPING AT OSH and read message 99850 April 02 babble for some more hints about camping there. Some things will be changed as there will now be Custom Camping west of the forum tents. YEA. You HAVE to fly to OSH, and it is GREAT to camp there, even if you are not that accustom to the great out doors. Early morning, smell of coffee and someone cooking bacon, sun not up yet but orange glow over the lake, conversation you can't quite make out over behind you to your left, two P-51s and an F4U taking off in sequence 200 yards from your tent roar the quiet away and are gone, quiet again except for someone somewhere saying "cool!". Friends you only see at OSH, stumble out of their tent and crawl over to yours, set up a chair and, smiling blurry-eyed, hold out their cup for a bit of hot joe. Can't wait. Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Info From: cecilth@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com What is "(The ER Tanks slide into the first nose rib lightening hole forward of the spar) " Inquiring minds want to know. Cecil On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:25:36 -0500 writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: > > Hi all, don't know if this is general knowledge, but I thought this > response was good enough to share with the list. I finally bit the > bullet and ordered my Dynon and associated toys. Tony and Monte have > been really great to deal with. Would like to throw out a big thanks > to Dynon just for making a good pitot tube for a reasonable price. > Every little victory adds up. > > Eric > Thanks for your order, we look forward to receiving it and we'll get > it processed as soon as it's received. > The wing tip is the preferred location for the remote compass. This > gets the remote compass as far away from the panel and ferrous > materials (engine, engine mount, landing gear, etc.) as possible. If > you have a strobe power supply in the wing tip, you'll want to > install the compass as far away from the box as possible (within the > wing tip). The EFIS-D10 "samples" the remote compass 64 times/second > and averages these samples. Even with the comet flash strobes, there > is only small amount of time, relative to the sampling rate, that > any significant interference can be generated by the strobe power > supply. The remote compass will sense the strobes as they discharge > but the user probably won't notice any change on the EFIS-D10 > display (due to the averaging and large number of samples taken each > second). Now that you understand how the EFIS-D10 gathers and > processes compass signals, it explains why electric gyro's (being > continuous sources of interference) are the most problematic! > to correct. > As a side note, if you ever think you may be installing our ER > Tanks, mount the remote compass at least 1 foot behind the main > spar. Then you won't have to move it should you install ER Tanks at > a later date. (The ER Tanks slide into the first nose rib lightening > hole forward of the spar) > If there's anything else Monte or I can do for you, please don't > hesitate to contact us. > Tony Munday and Monte McDavid > SafeAir1 > 817-821-4957 (TM) > 817-939-2695 (MM) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:03 AM PST US From: "pcondon" Subject: RV-List: RV-List New EFIS instrument add & company in Kitplanes --> RV-List message posted by: "pcondon" Has anyone contacted the Canadian company who is advertising in the back of Kitplanes magazine which advertises single unit, replacement electrical/LCD display flight instruments ?? I am at work and the magazine is at home........ Noticed the add in the new (latest) mailing of Kitplane magazine, in the back section of the mag,- last night while I should have been doing my taxes and houseold billing...... ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:01:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Oshkosh Camping Question From: cecilth@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com From: Laird Owens "And be sure not to mix up the two.... :-)" Owen . . . you didn't---- Oh My God Cecil ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:51 AM PST US From: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> Subject: RV-List: Honda alternator --> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> If the Honda spins backwards from every other car engine then it would be turning the same direction that aircrat engines turn and the alternator would be even better?? Right?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > At 09:01 PM 3/3/2004 -0600, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" > > > >It works regardless of rotation so there is no need to remove. Might not be > >as efficient but at 6000 rpm it doesn't make any difference. > > Honda spins the engine backwards from everyone else. Why use a > Honda alternator when every other brand in the world spins in the correct > direction? > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:42 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Perfect the book is ordered. At 12:13 PM 3/4/04 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" > >Scott, I bought "Speed with Economy", subtitle "Experimental Aircraft >Performance Improvement" by Kent Paser, 1994. Bought direct from him: >Paser Publications, 5672 West Chestnut Avenue, Littleton, Colorado 80123. >Cost me $28.45 in 1990. > >Chapter 3, Engine Intake System Modifications. Pg 52, "the use of propellor >pressure pulses to augment the ram air flow into the cowl carburetor air >scoop. Pg 55 describes, qualitatively, the 5 design factors he >incorporated. > >You are on the right track. 1" is great. Increased over what? I see MAP >2" below station pressure with an oiled foam air filter and only 1" below >station pressure with a paper filter. With special air intake ducts, some >guys are seeing 1 to 2" OVER station pressure - don't know if they use a >filter or not. Engine (valves) won't last long with no filter - grit gets >onto valve seats and then valves burn rapidly due to hot gas blow-by. > >David > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Scott Bilinski" >To: >Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >> >> Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what >> can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" >MP >> increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger >> FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice >> appreciated. >> >> >> Scott Bilinski >> Eng dept 305 >> Phone (858) 657-2536 >> Pager (858) 502-5190 >> do not archive >> >> > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 do not archive ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:42 AM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon Info --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker They sell extended range tanks - fuel "cylinders" that slide into the rib lightening holes. Take a look at www.safeair1.com Dick Tasker cecilth@juno.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com > >What is "(The ER Tanks slide into the first nose rib lightening hole >forward of the spar) " >Inquiring minds want to know. >Cecil > > >On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 08:25:36 -0500 writes: > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: >> >>Hi all, don't know if this is general knowledge, but I thought this >>response was good enough to share with the list. I finally bit the >>bullet and ordered my Dynon and associated toys. Tony and Monte have >>been really great to deal with. Would like to throw out a big thanks >>to Dynon just for making a good pitot tube for a reasonable price. >>Every little victory adds up. >> >>Eric >>Thanks for your order, we look forward to receiving it and we'll get >>it processed as soon as it's received. >>The wing tip is the preferred location for the remote compass. This >>gets the remote compass as far away from the panel and ferrous >>materials (engine, engine mount, landing gear, etc.) as possible. If >>you have a strobe power supply in the wing tip, you'll want to >>install the compass as far away from the box as possible (within the >>wing tip). The EFIS-D10 "samples" the remote compass 64 times/second >>and averages these samples. Even with the comet flash strobes, there >>is only small amount of time, relative to the sampling rate, that >>any significant interference can be generated by the strobe power >>supply. The remote compass will sense the strobes as they discharge >>but the user probably won't notice any change on the EFIS-D10 >>display (due to the averaging and large number of samples taken each >>second). Now that you understand how the EFIS-D10 gathers and >>processes compass signals, it explains why electric gyro's (being >>continuous sources of interference) are the most problematic! >> to correct. >>As a side note, if you ever think you may be installing our ER >>Tanks, mount the remote compass at least 1 foot behind the main >>spar. Then you won't have to move it should you install ER Tanks at >>a later date. (The ER Tanks slide into the first nose rib lightening >>hole forward of the spar) >>If there's anything else Monte or I can do for you, please don't >>hesitate to contact us. >>Tony Munday and Monte McDavid >>SafeAir1 >>817-821-4957 (TM) >>817-939-2695 (MM) >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:53 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure From: Larry Pardue --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue on 3/4/04 11:03 AM, Kyle Boatright at kyle.boatright@adelphia.net wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" > > Looks like the exhaust hanging hardware on my airplane needs to be changed > every 100 hours or so. When I pulled the cowl for my condition inspection, I > found that one of the angles in the Vetterman exhaust hanging system had > failed. That was at about 220 hours. Previously (at about 100 hours in > service) I experienced a failure in the previous version of the exhaust > hanging system. > > Has anyone worked out an exhaust hanging system that is reliable over the long > term? Tom at Van's indicated that lots of folks have experienced failures in > this area over the years, despite numerous revisions in the hardware and > attachement of the hangars. > Kyle, I started off with lots of failures and have finally gotten it to where I have not had any for a few hundred hours. I can't remember everything I have done because it has been a gradual upgrading, but here are some of the things, half stolen from other listers and half my own ideas. I replaced the original Vetterman tubing with heavier wall tubing. I believe this stuff is auto brake line. The smashed ends with the holes, that Vetterman uses to make attachements are where mine almost always broke, no matter how careful I was making the smashes smooth. Now I use clamps on the tubing captured with silver soldered wire around the tubing on each side of the clamp. Rather than one clamp on the engine mount at each attach point I use two bridged with a piece of heavy aluminum. I eliminated the cross brace, which was a failure point and have found the exhaust hangs just fine straight down from its mounting point. It can't break if it isn't there. I have still found failures of one clamp occasionally but that hasn't caused a problem. And finally I safety wire things so a failure doesnt' let the exhaust go anywhere, although I have found it tends to stay pretty much in place, even with a complete failure on one side. I haven't tried any of Larry's updated mounting solutions. All of this is on an RV-6 with O-360. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:06 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys --> RV-List message posted by: Cy meant to say ROTOR, not stator at the beginning of his message. The electormagnetic field is created by electricity being fed into the rotor windings. This creates the magnetic field. Charlie Kuss > > From: "Cy Galley" > Date: 2004/03/04 Thu PM 12:29:52 EST > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Van's alternator - $18 at Pep boys > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:20 PM PST US From: "BRUCE GRAY" bill@vondane.com, banderson@polyvision.com, dan@rvproject.com, rv7boy@yahoo.com, drwalker@powernet.net, jacki@jackim.com, jhallrv4@comcast.net, n1cxo320@salidaco.com, RV-List@matronics.com, mikesrv6@yahoo.com, rosales@bigfoot.com, n667sr@comcast.net Subject: RV-List: RSVP for Carson City Fly-in --> RV-List message posted by: "BRUCE GRAY" Hello Everyone, I am sending this e-mail out 8 weeks in advance to get an idea of the crowd we may be dealing with. We have set aside a block of 40 rooms at the Pinion Plaza Resort so don't hesitate on that. I have been told if the rooms do not reserve by a certain time they will release them for other costumers. So far I have received raffle/door prizes from Aerox Aviation Oxygen Systems, Avery Tools, and Aircraft Spruce. We are working on a couple more and will post those donations as soon as I get word. Please mark your calendars and plan for this event. I ask anyone that wishes to participate in this event to RSVP in the next couple of weeks so we can get an idea for food preparations and chapter members we need to recruit to make this fly-in a success. Thanks to you all that are supporting and donating to this fly-in. We will see you here. Bruce One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:53 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Camping at OSH --> RV-List message posted by: "John" DO NOT ARCHIVE Thanks to everyone who gave me good information on camping at OSH, particularly the caution not to mix the pee and water bottles !! John ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:04:21 PM PST US From: JusCash@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Engine For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com My new AeroSport engine has arrived. I would like to find a new home for my old engine with about 900hrs on it SMOH. It is a 180HP O-360A1D off of a Mooney. The engine was removed from a flying airplane when the owner changed to a 200HP IO-360 angle valve. The engine includes the starter and rebuilt Bendix "shower of sparks" mags with the vibrator. I need the vacuum pump and the prop governor. I bought the engine to test fly my RV-6 without having to worry about breaking in a new engine. I have flown it about 85hrs without any problems. The airplane is really fast, I hope I see a big difference in airspeed after spending the money for the AeroSport. I will not be installing the new engine right away so come hear it run and fly the airplane. I am asking $12,500 Cash Copeland RV-6 N46FC Hayward, Ca ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:05:03 PM PST US From: Bill VonDane Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane I had the same problem after about 80 hours... I made some new brackets and now, 80 hours later, they are good as new... http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/engine/engine3.htm - bottom of page... -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Looks like the exhaust hanging hardware on my airplane needs to be changed every 100 hours or so. When I pulled the cowl for my condition inspection, I found that one of the angles in the Vetterman exhaust hanging system had failed. That was at about 220 hours. Previously (at about 100 hours in service) I experienced a failure in the previous version of the exhaust hanging system. Has anyone worked out an exhaust hanging system that is reliable over the long term? Tom at Van's indicated that lots of folks have experienced failures in this area over the years, despite numerous revisions in the hardware and attachement of the hangars. Thanks in advance, KB ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:10 PM PST US From: RV8ter@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Tulsa Engine Services --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com Good info. It seems there's no overhaul manual specific to IO-360s. It looks like there's just one generic manual for direct drive engines non turbo charged engines. Is that right? What documentation, Lycoming or otherwise, did you accumulate? thanks, lucky In a message dated 3/4/2004 9:24:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, EricHe@FlexSolPackaging.com writes: --> RV-List message posted by: >>>>Listers, What was the name of the engine shop in Oklahoma mentioned recently on the list? I couldn't find it in the archives. Thanks, Dan RV-7A (almost done) >>>>> Sounds like you are doing your own rebuild. I just did that so I thought I'd give you a run down on what I found. Maybe it will benefit someone. If you want your steel parts refurbed in Tulsa you are looking for Aircraft Specialties Inc. They did all of my internal parts, resurfaced everything and yellow tags for everything for $1800.00 . They sold me a rebuild kit that contains all hardware you'll need for $800.00. There's your bottom end overhaul. BTW, most of the cost is the connecting rod bolts. Ouch! My cases were done by Divco. For $700.00 they line bore, check for cracks, resurface everything. They are absolutely beautiful when you get them back. Next engine, I will do the same thing, but I might be tempted to give ole Monte Barret a call and ask him how much he wants to assemble and test the thing. Monte builds high perf competition aerobatic engines. He's right next door to Aircraft Specialties. He chased down some parts for me and was great to work with and was more than reasonable. Basically you could disassemble your engine ship it off and get back a fresh engine. You would be skipping the markup the buil! ders charge you to ship your parts out. When a builder ships a crank out, from my experience, they charge you near double the cost of the machine shops price. If you have a bendix fuel injection, Air Flow Performance made my entire FI system brand spanking new for $650.00, they replace everything but the body. For Mags I found a guy named Howard Libersky in Okechobee, Fl that rebuilt each mag completely for $120.00 flat out. He's been doing mags since they were cutting edge technology. His number is (863-467-6464). I put new ECI Titan cylinders on since it was not much more than having my old work cylinders reworked. All told, I figure I've got about $13,500.00 invested and I'm damn confident in my engine (big thanks to Charlie Kuss). Hope it helps Eric Henson ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:16:52 PM PST US From: Smcm75@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: Smcm75@aol.com In a message dated 3/4/04 3:21:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, n5lp@warpdriveonline.com writes: > Rather than one clamp on the engine mount at each attach point I use two > bridged with a piece of heavy aluminum. > > Are you attaching the exaust pipes hangers from the engine mount rather than from lower case bolts as indicated in the vettermans instructions? Scott Morrow RV-6A 90% ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:58:06 PM PST US From: Laird Owens Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: Laird Owens The exhaust hangers were one of the most problematic parts of my RV for the first couple hundred hours. I don't know how many variations I tried, but they'd always break. I finally gave up trying to hang them off the motor mount and now support them off the sump bolts. Been great for the last 500 hrs. Laird RV-6/O-360 950 hrs SoCal >--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue > >on 3/4/04 11:03 AM, Kyle Boatright at kyle.boatright@adelphia.net wrote: > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" >> >> >> Looks like the exhaust hanging hardware on my airplane needs to be changed >> every 100 hours or so. When I pulled the cowl for my condition >>inspection, I >> found that one of the angles in the Vetterman exhaust hanging system had >> failed. That was at about 220 hours. Previously (at about 100 hours in >> service) I experienced a failure in the previous version of the exhaust >> hanging system. >> >> Has anyone worked out an exhaust hanging system that is reliable >>over the long >> term? Tom at Van's indicated that lots of folks have experienced >>failures in >> this area over the years, despite numerous revisions in the hardware and > > attachement of the hangars. >> ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:16 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: Smcm75@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/4/04 3:21:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > n5lp@warpdriveonline.com writes: > > > Rather than one clamp on the engine mount at each attach point I use two > > bridged with a piece of heavy aluminum. > > > > > > Are you attaching the exaust pipes hangers from the engine mount rather than > from lower case bolts as indicated in the vettermans instructions? > I am attaching to the engine mount as indicated in the Vetterman instructions that I got. Apparently there are different versions of his system. I think I got my exhaust about 1998 or 1999. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:34 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton A few comments: 1. The ambient pressure is directly related to the pressure altitude, but the pressure does not vary with temperature. So, there is no direct relationship between density altitude and ambient pressure. So forget all about density altitude for this discussion. Just consider pressure altitude (i.e. what the altimeter reads when you set it to 29.92). 2. There are a whole bunch of different pressures that we can talk about, and it is hard to have a clear discussion unless we are sure we are talking about the same pressures. Ambient pressure (or static pressure) - the actual pressure in the atmosphere at the altitude in question. There is a direct relationship between ambient pressure and pressure altitude. You can find the equations for the relationship between pressure altitude and ambient pressure at: http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.htm#Altimetry Dynamic pressure - this is the pressure increase due to speed, in simple terms. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/Dynamic_Pressure/DI142.htm Total pressure - this is the sum of ambient pressure and dynamic pressure. It is the pressure that we get if we take the air and slow it down to zero speed (looking at it from the perspective of the aircraft). This is the pressure that we could get inside the induction air scoop, if we actually could get the air to come to a stop relative to the aircraft. In reality, the air has to keep moving, as the engine needs to keep consuming it, so we can never get the pressure quite this high. Pressure before the air filter - this pressure will generally be somewhat less than the total pressure, unless we manage to position our intake to get some pressure increase due to the propeller. Pressure after the air filter - air will not flow unless there is a pressure differential, so the pressure after the filter has to be lower than the pressure ahead of the filter. The pressure loss as the air goes through the filter seems to be about 1" HG, at least based on what some people have reported. Manifold pressure - this is the pressure that we have at the intake manifold, right next to the intake port. There are pressure losses as the air flows through the carb (or fuel injection servo) and the intake manifold plumbing. So, the manifold pressure will be equal to the ambient pressure + dynamic pressure - small error because the air never actually goes to zero speed - pressure loss through the air filter - pressure loss through the carb and intake manifold. So, depending on how fast we going (which will largely determine the dynamic pressure), and what the various pressure losses are, the manifold pressure may be more or less than the ambient pressure. So, you are seeing about a 1" pressure increase due to ram air. Which pressure has increased by 1"? 1" relative to what? The manifold pressure? What do you mean by ram air? Do you mean that you have a way to bypass the air filter? Or do you mean that you are looking at the pressure increase due to motion (i.e. the dynamic pressure)? There is no rocket science to increasing manifold pressure, but the laws of physics will place limits on what you can do. Going faster will increase the dynamic pressure, which will increase the total pressure, which will mean more manifold pressure. Sort of a Catch 22 here - you want to go faster, so you want more manifold pressure. But you'll get more manifold pressure if you can figure out how to go faster. Have an air inlet with the lowest amount of frictional losses. The frictional losses are at the outside surface of the air inlet. So, you want the shape that has the least amount of circumference for a given area - i.e. a circle. Turbulence causes pressure losses, so you want smooth contours, and gentle changes in contour. No steps, or rapidly increasing areas. You want the shortest possible inlet duct, as that minimizes the frictional losses. You might get some benefit from having the air inlet further away from the prop hub, so you could get some pressure increase from the prop. Lopresti claimed to have gotten some benefit from this effect, but it could have been all smoke and mirrors. You want a smooth surface to the intake ducting and the intake manifold, to reduce the frictional losses. You want an air filter with the lowest pressure drop. Good luck, Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >Dont remember where I came up with 1"???? Somewhere somebody posted the >calculated pressure available at 8k density alt for a standard day?. Well >we have had a few standard days here in the last month, I checked and saw >1" more than calculated at 185 MPH. Have no idea if this is right. I have >paid real attention to detail on sealing up everything I can on the air >box. It pained me to even add the drain hole for the FAB. > >Now after all this I just remember I was told that you cannot use the >barometric pressure as a comparison/base line to MP. Any info on this? How >and why are they different? If barometric pressure is 30.0 would max >manifold pressure also be the same barring any losses in the system? > > >At 10:34 AM 3/4/04 -0600, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> >> >>Hi Scott, >> >>I am still learning about these things but maybe I can help. I'm curious >>how you deduced the 1" MP increase due to ram air? It is interesting because >>at 170 mph you can expect about 1" of mercury pressure available at the air >>box. This can be calculated based on the formula for the dynamic pressure of >>a fluid where >> >>P = (V**2 d)/288 g >> >>where: >> >> P = lbs per sq. inch (psi) >>V = Velocity in feet per second (1mph = 1446 fps) >>d = density of air in pounds pwe cu. ft., standard sea level air density >>0.0762 pounds per cubic foot. >>g = acceleration of gravity in feet per second (32.2 feet per second) >> >>Based on this formulation at: >> >>170 mph =~1"hg >>300 mph =~3"hg >> >>To increase your Ram air pressure you can eliminate pressure drops, across >>air filters, induction systems, etc. For example a poorly designed air box >>may have a large pressure drop. Porting of the intake manifold and intake >>chambers on the head can help reduce pressure drop. Keep in mind that you >>are working with rather small increases in performance here for increasingly >>higher dollar costs. If you have the Van's FAB then you probably have a very >>low psi drop air box already. >> >>Your Fellow RV Enthusiast, >>Ned >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Scott Bilinski" >>To: >>Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question >> >> >>> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski >> >>> >>> Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what >>> can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" >>MP >>> increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger >>> FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice >>> appreciated. >>> >>> > >> Scott Bilinski > >> >>> >> >> > >Scott Bilinski ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:49 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Honda civic engines are one of the very few that spin like a aircraft engine, so their fans should work. I'm not sure my cowl would not hit the external fan though if one were installed. RE reverse spinning the alt is no problem as long as you are below roughly 50% rated duty. The main problem with auto alternators is they are not rated for continous duty as aircraft ones are. Then you reduce cooling by reverse spinning the fan and removing the external one (if it had one) and ba da bing melted parts. I have tested them on the bench at load both ways and they will smoke quicker when going backwards, but they will smoke either way if held at rated power for too long. That's why I built the big one out of a toyota solara. http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/index.h tm W ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:59 PM PST US From: "Bob U." Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." >>Engine (valves) won't last long with no filter - grit gets >>onto valve seats and then valves burn rapidly due to hot gas blow-by. >> >>David >> I've had rings get wiped out, but never valves operating crop dusters on dirt roads with leaking air boxes. For the record, there a model of Mooney that allows one to bypass the filter for improved ram air performance. Also for the record, I have an early Vans intake air setup in my RV-3. No filtering unless the carb heat is actuated. Over 700 hours on the engine with compression in the mid 70's and oil consumption is less than a quart in 20 hours. I do pull carb heat while taxiing on the ground to keep the engine clean of damaging abrasive particles. Would a full time air filter be better for longevity? Most likely at the expense of ramn air performance. At any rate, seems Van was not too concerned when he engineered my early version RV-3 air intake. Bob ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:32 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternator cooling --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Listers, Has anyone actually studied the airflow conditions surrounding the alternators positioned as they are in the cowlings of Vans RV line? I have seen little indication that the direction of airflow in the alternator's confined area of the average RV cowling is clearly understood. Keep in mind that there is no direct air flow to or from the line of flight outside airflow. Airflow in this comparatively cramped corner of the forward lower cowling might well be considerably dynamically turbulent with very little actual definable flow direction or rate of flow. All air movement in the area of the alternator is pre-heated by engine cooling and further by exhaust system radiant and convective sources. Cooling therefore is an issue. The direction of rotation of the stock cooling fan/s is likely to be a somewhat moot point. Having the fan/s turn in the fan designer's intended direction where possible would be the preferred choice. Adding an additional fan on the units that have only one, might be possible? but may not be worth the effort. Blast air is suggested `if not a must' and is not uncommonly applied by aiming a blast air tube in the general direction of the alternator. Having the blast air tube fitted to some form of duct that improves the cooling effect might be desirable on any alternator. The same treatment focused on the electronics housing for internally regulated regulator types can only help in the overall. Of course having additional blast air tubes could help but a line has to be drawn somewhere. These alternators survive well in deplorable conditions in the automobiles that they were designed for. It could be said that though the conditions under the engine of an RV are different, they are also deplorable at least from any imaginary ideal condition point of view. If anyone cares to add to my understanding or shed light on my lack thereof please do so. I live to learn, Jim in Kelowna ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:53 PM PST US From: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> Good information and I like that you have actually tested the alternators. I always wondered how my "Certified" aircraft was able to get the Ford alternator certified while running it backwards. They didn't even bother to change the fan. The fan runs backwards... Go figure. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wheeler North" Subject: RV-List: alternators > --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > > Honda civic engines are one of the very few that spin like a aircraft > engine, so their fans should work. I'm not sure my cowl would not hit the > external fan though if one were installed. > > RE reverse spinning the alt is no problem as long as you are below roughly > 50% rated duty. The main problem with auto alternators is they are not rated > for continous duty as aircraft ones are. Then you reduce cooling by reverse > spinning the fan and removing the external one (if it had one) and ba da > bing melted parts. > > I have tested them on the bench at load both ways and they will smoke > quicker when going backwards, but they will smoke either way if held at > rated power for too long. > > That's why I built the big one out of a toyota solara. > > http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/index.h > tm > > W > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:00 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Larry, Since then Larry is recommending attaching the exhaust to the engine sump bolts. I broke mine multiple times until I hung them from the two rear corner sump bolts. Now the exhaust moves with the engine, nearly 200 hrs trouble free since then. It'll only take you an hour or two to make the change, and no more exhaust hanger problems! Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis http://www.steinair.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Larry Pardue Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: Smcm75@aol.com > > In a message dated 3/4/04 3:21:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, > n5lp@warpdriveonline.com writes: > > > Rather than one clamp on the engine mount at each attach point I use two > > bridged with a piece of heavy aluminum. > > > > > > Are you attaching the exaust pipes hangers from the engine mount rather than > from lower case bolts as indicated in the vettermans instructions? > I am attaching to the engine mount as indicated in the Vetterman instructions that I got. Apparently there are different versions of his system. I think I got my exhaust about 1998 or 1999. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:17 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com W, Thanks for the great web site and sharing your alternator knowledge. I was a technician for Delco Radio (now Delphi Delco Electronics) back in the mid to late 60's working on GM's electronic voltage regulator-in-the-alternator program which first came out on the '68 Pontiac in limited production. Within about 3 years it was across the board on all GM cars. At the time even silicon transistors were not too common. When I first heard what the temperatures were in the alternator, and what accuracy of regulation we were expected to achieve, I wondered if I was working for a bunch of idiots! Anyway, I had the pleasure of getting to know some of the brightest minds in the business. My '63 Ford was one of the first, if not the first, to have a regulator inside the alternator. I took off the generator and made brackets and installed one of the Delco Remy alternators which was consigned to me by the company. My first impression of Van's 35 amp installation with no fan was that it won't last long. Guess what, it didn't. My friend and instructor finished his RV-9A and the first thing that failed was the charging system. I opened up the alternator and found solder balls and soot. Has anyone had any LUCK with these things with no fan? A blast tube alone will not get the air where its needed, although a blast tube may bring in some cool air for the alternator fan to pick up, if it has one. The problem is that if you have to crank the engine long, or otherwise run the battery down, the alternator will overheat before you get it to the end of the runway to take off. You could baby it by leaving the field breaker turned off, but who wants to have to remember to do that? Not a good situation. Right now I have Van's 60 amp kit installed on my yet to fly RV-7A, but I really like your approach. At the first sign of a problem, I'm going that route. Thanks again, Dan N766DH (almost done in Indiana) In a message dated 3/4/04 5:34:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time, wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us writes: > > That's why I built the big one out of a toyota solara. > > http://www.miramarcollege.net/programs/avim/faculty/north/alternator/index.h > tm > > W > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:55:03 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Exhaust Bracket Failure --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Listers, Rather than flatten the tubes or silver solder to them, I just put a little flare on them with my flaring tool -- just enough to increase the diameter about like putting a bead on the tube. A bead would be ideal. After flaring the tubing, smooth it up on a Scotchbrite wheel so it doesn't cut the rubber tubing. Dan RV-7A (almost done) In a message dated 3/4/04 6:46:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: > Since then Larry is recommending attaching the exhaust to the engine sump > bolts. I broke mine multiple times until I hung them from the two rear > corner sump bolts. Now the exhaust moves with the engine, nearly 200 hrs > trouble free since then. It'll only take you an hour or two to make the > change, and no more exhaust hanger problems! > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > RV6's, Minneapolis > http://www.steinair.com > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:56:57 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Honda alternator --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 01:05 PM 3/4/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> > >If the Honda spins backwards from every other car engine then it would be >turning the same direction that aircrat engines turn and the alternator >would be even better?? Right?? Then why are folks complaining that the fan is backwards? ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:05 PM PST US From: RV8ter@aol.com Subject: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com Engine and finishing kit on the way. So what's the preferred order of events between now and riveting on the forward top fuse skin? I can see some things are on an equal level. Here's what I'm thinking. No vacuum system for me. I want to put a Lightspeed on one set of plugs but will wait until after 25 hour fly off. Mount the engine, install engine accessories, fit cowl, exhaust, baffles, oil cooler, fuel and oil hoses/lines, throttle, mixture, governor cables from cockpit, engine monitoring cables and sensors, finish panel, ???, cut canopy, rivet on top skin, finish front baggage door, install windscreen, ??? What have I got out of order or am missing? thanks, lucky ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:51 PM PST US From: "Greg Young" Subject: RE: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? --> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" You probably ought to install the Lightspeed up front. It's a good size box that needs to be mounted on the cabin side of the firewall with penetrations for 2 coil leads, manifold pressure and timing pick-up and direct-to-battery power. The Hall effect sensor uses a 9-pin D-sub that needs a large opening to pass through even if you remove its shell. You really don't want to do all that after the skin is on. Engine side would certainly be easier but cabin side was recommended several years ago unless Klaus has changed it recently. Regards, Greg Young - Houston (DWH) RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A > > --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com > > Engine and finishing kit on the way. So what's the preferred > order of events > between now and riveting on the forward top fuse skin? I can > see some things > are on an equal level. > > Here's what I'm thinking. No vacuum system for me. I want to put a > Lightspeed on one set of plugs but will wait until after 25 > hour fly off. > > Mount the engine, > install engine accessories, > fit cowl, > exhaust, > baffles, > oil cooler, > fuel and oil hoses/lines, > throttle, mixture, governor cables from cockpit, > engine monitoring cables and sensors, > finish panel, > ???, > cut canopy, > rivet on top skin, > finish front baggage door, > install windscreen, > ??? > > What have I got out of order or am missing? > > thanks, > lucky > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:20 PM PST US From: "J. R. Dial" Subject: RE: RV-List: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" I got VANS cushions and I like them. DO NOT ARCHIVE -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Walker Subject: Re: RV-List: Vans Seat Cushion Kit for Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Walker" This is probably the 3rd or 4th time i've seen someone selling their Van's seat cushions in the past few months. Is there something about them that is disliked ? What are you guys going with instead ? I'm curious because I'm at the point of needing some cushions and perhaps you guys have some insight to share ? Ron == == == == ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 05:18:31 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > My first impression of Van's 35 amp installation with no fan was that it > won't last long. Guess what, it didn't. My friend and instructor finished his > RV-9A and the first thing that failed was the charging system. I opened up > the alternator and found solder balls and soot. Has anyone had any LUCK > with these things with no fan? A blast tube alone will not get the air where its > needed, although a blast tube may bring in some cool air for the alternator fan > to pick up, if it has one. > > The problem is that if you have to crank the engine long, or otherwise run > the battery down, the alternator will overheat before you get it to the end of > the runway to take off. You could baby it by leaving the field breaker turned > off, but who wants to have to remember to do that? Not a good situation. > OK, I guess it's time I add a little to this conversation. I've got a 35 amp Van's alternator in Scooter. Actually, it's the second one. I replaced the first one when I thought I had a problem with the alternator. Not so. It was the regulator that was a little jumpy. I'm still using that regulator and have a good used alternator as a back up. The new one is just fine, as well. I don't have any idea why you guys are having problems with your alternators. Maybe you could be overloading them. Maybe not. I just know that I've been quite happy with mine. Yes, I've evem run the battery down very low on cold mornings trying to start mine and have had the alternator work double duty to recharge that battery, run the fuel pump, run the avionics, and run the strobe. No problems with that, either. I thought about putting the blast tubes on; but, I still haven't done that because my alternator is not burning up. I never had one on the Cheetah; so, I figured it would be just fine without blast tubes for Scooter. Now, why mine works so much better than those you've used is a mystery to me; but, I plan to continue doing what I'm doing. I just may get mine at auto parts stores, in the future. BTW, I still haven't had a flap motor failure, yet. It could happen on my next flight; but, I've been flying Scooter for over four years and am still using the original one. Someone must be watching over me. Nah. My engine has made up for the other. :-) I seem to have that resolved, now. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:48 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Jim Sears wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > >>My first impression of Van's 35 amp installation with no fan was that it >>won't last long. Guess what, it didn't. My friend and instructor >> >> >finished his > > >>RV-9A and the first thing that failed was the charging system. I opened >> >> >up > > >>the alternator and found solder balls and soot. Has anyone had any LUCK >>with these things with no fan? A blast tube alone will not get the air >> >> >where its > > >>needed, although a blast tube may bring in some cool air for the >> >> >alternator fan > to pick up, if it has one. > > >>The problem is that if you have to crank the engine long, or otherwise run >>the battery down, the alternator will overheat before you get it to the >> >> >end of > > >>the runway to take off. You could baby it by leaving the field breaker >> >> >turned > > >>off, but who wants to have to remember to do that? Not a good situation. >> >> >> > >OK, I guess it's time I add a little to this conversation. I've got a 35 >amp Van's alternator in Scooter. Actually, it's the second one. I replaced >the first one when I thought I had a problem with the alternator. Not so. >It was the regulator that was a little jumpy. I'm still using that >regulator and have a good used alternator as a back up. The new one is just >fine, as well. I don't have any idea why you guys are having problems with >your alternators. Maybe you could be overloading them. Maybe not. I just >know that I've been quite happy with mine. Yes, I've evem run the battery >down very low on cold mornings trying to start mine and have had the >alternator work double duty to recharge that battery, run the fuel pump, run >the avionics, and run the strobe. No problems with that, either. I thought >about putting the blast tubes on; but, I still haven't done that because my >alternator is not burning up. I never had one on the Cheetah; so, I figured >it would be just fine without blast tubes for Scooter. Now, why mine works >so much better than those you've used is a mystery to me; but, I plan to >continue doing what I'm doing. I just may get mine at auto parts stores, in >the future. > >BTW, I still haven't had a flap motor failure, yet. It could happen on my >next flight; but, I've been flying Scooter for over four years and am still >using the original one. Someone must be watching over me. Nah. My engine >has made up for the other. :-) I seem to have that resolved, now. > >Jim Sears in KY >RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) >EAA Tech Counselor >do not archive > > > Guess we are just special Jim, :-) July well be 15 years alternator trouble free. Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:36 PM PST US From: "Vince Himsl" Subject: RE: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? --> RV-List message posted by: "Vince Himsl" Hello, I am there now....It is sort of a chicken and the egg stage isn't it! Well, here's what I am doing: Check with Van's Web Site as they have some additional notes/instructions about mounting the wings, the cowl and I believe the canopy. Main thing is they say to leave off all the engine doodads as they get in the way when mounting the cowl. I haven't mounted the top deck as I am concentrating on firewall penetrations in the vain hope of minimizing the crawling around inside when the top deck is on. I have the engine mounted. Some say to wait till you have mounted the firewall stuff, but I need the engine on to get an idea of where everything goes. I have been held up as I really need to have an idea of the panel before I proceed. I have decided on NO fuel/pressure/copper/etc. lines in the cockpit. NO Vacuum instruments. I elaborate as you need to know this before you start punching holes in the firewall. Everything on the firewall will be nutplated so you can imagine trying to do it with the top deck on. Are you using Lightspeed Electronic Ignition? Then you need to have a Manifold Pressure line to it and the coax cables need to seperated from the return sensor wires. This kind of circular detail can drive one crazy! Another reason I mention the panel is that the side sections (RV-8) of it are best dealt with before permanent installation of the top deck. My ignition switch will go on the right and potentially the carb/cabin heat will go on the left. Also if you can nail down the electrical wire routing (again firewall penetrations) you will be ahead of the game. With apologies to the traditionalists, I am going with Aeroelectric Bob's recommendations. There are other things you can be doing in parallel such as the upholstery, seats, cabin wiring, but you already know that. So wrapping it all up: Focus on the firewall and instrument side penetrations (and fuel lines, but you probably have already done that). Mount the top deck Then pick up with the plans at the Canopy. Of course, that is the game plan for today. Tomorrow could be another story. Regards, Vince Himsl RV8 - SB Finish "Aerosport and Lightspeed, but still procrastinating on the canopy" -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RV8ter@aol.com Subject: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com Engine and finishing kit on the way. So what's the preferred order of events between now and riveting on the forward top fuse skin? I can see some things are on an equal level. Here's what I'm thinking. No vacuum system for me. I want to put a Lightspeed on one set of plugs but will wait until after 25 hour fly off. Mount the engine, install engine accessories, fit cowl, exhaust, baffles, oil cooler, fuel and oil hoses/lines, throttle, mixture, governor cables from cockpit, engine monitoring cables and sensors, finish panel, ???, cut canopy, rivet on top skin, finish front baggage door, install windscreen, ??? What have I got out of order or am missing? thanks, lucky ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:56 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RV-List: Langley Fly-in 2004 --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry The Langley Aero Club and Van's Air Force Western Canada Wing are holding the third annual Langley Fly-in on Saturday, June 12, 2004 at Langley airport (CYNJ), Langley, BC (~20 nm north of Bellingham, WA). Keep an eye on the Fly-in web page for details, http://www.vansairforce.org/CYNJ For U.S. visitors, there's a link on the web page to Randall Henderson's excellent border-crossing information page -- everything the first-time border-crosser needs to know. There will be awards for homebuilts, seminars on RV-related topics, and a representative from Van's Aircraft. Naturally, we're encouraging anyone who wants to fly in, regardless of what type of airplane you have. If you plan to attend, and especially if you plan to fly in, please take the time to sign the Guest Book on the Fly-in web page. http://www.vansairforce.org/CYNJ/guestbook/lac_sign.html That will help us plan facilities such as food and washrooms. Tedd McHenry Van's Air Force Western Canada Wing tedd@vansairforce.org www.vansairforce.org ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:41 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternator cooling --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" With using a blast air tube for cooling the alternator, is there any concern about flying into rain and having rain water coming through the tube onto the back of the alternator? Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak JeffRose Firewall Forward ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternator cooling > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > > Listers, > > Has anyone actually studied the airflow conditions surrounding the > alternators positioned as they are in the cowlings of Vans RV line? > > I have seen little indication that the direction of airflow in the > alternator's confined area of the average RV cowling is clearly understood. > Keep in mind that there is no direct air flow to or from the line of flight > outside airflow. > Airflow in this comparatively cramped corner of the forward lower cowling > might well be considerably dynamically turbulent with very little actual > definable flow direction or rate of flow. > > All air movement in the area of the alternator is pre-heated by engine > cooling and further by exhaust system radiant and convective sources. > Cooling therefore is an issue. > The direction of rotation of the stock cooling fan/s is likely to be a > somewhat moot point. > Having the fan/s turn in the fan designer's intended direction where > possible would be the preferred choice. > Adding an additional fan on the units that have only one, might be possible? > but may not be worth the effort. > Blast air is suggested `if not a must' and is not uncommonly applied by > aiming a blast air tube in the general direction of the alternator. > Having the blast air tube fitted to some form of duct that improves the > cooling effect might be desirable on any alternator. The same treatment > focused on the electronics housing for internally regulated regulator types > can only help in the overall. > Of course having additional blast air tubes could help but a line has to be > drawn somewhere. > > These alternators survive well in deplorable conditions in the automobiles > that they were designed for. It could be said that though the conditions > under the engine of an RV are different, they are also deplorable at least > from any imaginary ideal condition point of view. > > > If anyone cares to add to my understanding or shed light on my lack thereof > please do so. > > I live to learn, > > Jim in Kelowna > > ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:57 PM PST US From: "Cy Galley" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" One person's experiences with an alternator is not a definitive study. What ever experience that person has is 100% for him and him alone. It may or may not be a generalized condition. It may be that one case in 1000s that sometimes happens. If it is a failure then every thing is o.k. but if it is the one case of success, then we have big problems. Reiterating one's opinion doesn't change the overall failure rate. Remember most of us are Amateur Builders. Of course, we have strong opinions, but they aren't necessarily the silent majorities nor statistically significant. They can be used for guidance. If you think that your $20 re-built alternator is going to let you down because of low price mean poor quality, you ought to buy a $1000 one like on Beech Bonanzas. Many on Bonanza list constantly complain about their alternator failures as well. One of the most important items for alternator life is a good v-belt, properly tensioned and aligned. Too tight and you will have bearing problems, too loose and the belt will slip, create flat spots on the belt and then vibrate it to death. Mis-alignment is also hard on the bearings. Washing down an engine with solvent is hard on them. Washes out the bearing lube, contaminates the brushes. Many car alternators live in a very hot position with poor cooling for 100,000 miles or more without ever being washed. The large Lycoming drive pulley runs the continual rpm up much higher (7-9000 rpm) than most car applications. Electric Bob discounts this as he says that this is not a factor but if your rotor is not well balanced, it will create problems. Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh Editor, EAA Safety Programs cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Springer" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternators > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > Jim Sears wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > > > > > > > > > >>My first impression of Van's 35 amp installation with no fan was that it > >>won't last long. Guess what, it didn't. My friend and instructor > >> > >> > >finished his > > > > > >>RV-9A and the first thing that failed was the charging system. I opened > >> > >> > >up > > > > > >>the alternator and found solder balls and soot. Has anyone had any LUCK > >>with these things with no fan? A blast tube alone will not get the air > >> > >> > >where its > > > > > >>needed, although a blast tube may bring in some cool air for the > >> > >> > >alternator fan > to pick up, if it has one. > > > > > >>The problem is that if you have to crank the engine long, or otherwise run > >>the battery down, the alternator will overheat before you get it to the > >> > >> > >end of > > > > > >>the runway to take off. You could baby it by leaving the field breaker > >> > >> > >turned > > > > > >>off, but who wants to have to remember to do that? Not a good situation. > >> > >> > >> > > > >OK, I guess it's time I add a little to this conversation. I've got a 35 > >amp Van's alternator in Scooter. Actually, it's the second one. I replaced > >the first one when I thought I had a problem with the alternator. Not so. > >It was the regulator that was a little jumpy. I'm still using that > >regulator and have a good used alternator as a back up. The new one is just > >fine, as well. I don't have any idea why you guys are having problems with > >your alternators. Maybe you could be overloading them. Maybe not. I just > >know that I've been quite happy with mine. Yes, I've evem run the battery > >down very low on cold mornings trying to start mine and have had the > >alternator work double duty to recharge that battery, run the fuel pump, run > >the avionics, and run the strobe. No problems with that, either. I thought > >about putting the blast tubes on; but, I still haven't done that because my > >alternator is not burning up. I never had one on the Cheetah; so, I figured > >it would be just fine without blast tubes for Scooter. Now, why mine works > >so much better than those you've used is a mystery to me; but, I plan to > >continue doing what I'm doing. I just may get mine at auto parts stores, in > >the future. > > > >BTW, I still haven't had a flap motor failure, yet. It could happen on my > >next flight; but, I've been flying Scooter for over four years and am still > >using the original one. Someone must be watching over me. Nah. My engine > >has made up for the other. :-) I seem to have that resolved, now. > > > >Jim Sears in KY > >RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) > >EAA Tech Counselor > >do not archive > > > > > > > Guess we are just special Jim, :-) July well be 15 years alternator > trouble free. > > Jerry > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:05 PM PST US From: Jason Sneed Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed since the avblend and I still have the problem. Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 08:13:21 PM PST US From: John Huft Subject: RE: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: John Huft Well, thanks guys, a useful discussion. I have spent the last couple of months developing a ram/alternate/filtered air system. When I am finished I will offer parts for sale...see me at sun n fun. I have been testing the ram pressure rise by noting the manifold pressure before I start the engine, then again at the same altitude 5 miles south of the airport at cruise speed. I live in the mountains so that is easy, though it happens at 7650 msl. More to follow. John Huft RV8 flying -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton A few comments: 1. The ambient pressure is directly related to the pressure altitude, but the pressure does not vary with temperature. So, there is no direct relationship between density altitude and ambient pressure. So forget all about density altitude for this discussion. Just consider pressure altitude (i.e. what the altimeter reads when you set it to 29.92). 2. There are a whole bunch of different pressures that we can talk about, and it is hard to have a clear discussion unless we are sure we are talking about the same pressures. Ambient pressure (or static pressure) - the actual pressure in the atmosphere at the altitude in question. There is a direct relationship between ambient pressure and pressure altitude. You can find the equations for the relationship between pressure altitude and ambient pressure at: http://williams.best.vwh.net/avform.htm#Altimetry Dynamic pressure - this is the pressure increase due to speed, in simple terms. http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Dictionary/Dynamic_Pressure/DI142.ht m Total pressure - this is the sum of ambient pressure and dynamic pressure. It is the pressure that we get if we take the air and slow it down to zero speed (looking at it from the perspective of the aircraft). This is the pressure that we could get inside the induction air scoop, if we actually could get the air to come to a stop relative to the aircraft. In reality, the air has to keep moving, as the engine needs to keep consuming it, so we can never get the pressure quite this high. Pressure before the air filter - this pressure will generally be somewhat less than the total pressure, unless we manage to position our intake to get some pressure increase due to the propeller. Pressure after the air filter - air will not flow unless there is a pressure differential, so the pressure after the filter has to be lower than the pressure ahead of the filter. The pressure loss as the air goes through the filter seems to be about 1" HG, at least based on what some people have reported. Manifold pressure - this is the pressure that we have at the intake manifold, right next to the intake port. There are pressure losses as the air flows through the carb (or fuel injection servo) and the intake manifold plumbing. So, the manifold pressure will be equal to the ambient pressure + dynamic pressure - small error because the air never actually goes to zero speed - pressure loss through the air filter - pressure loss through the carb and intake manifold. So, depending on how fast we going (which will largely determine the dynamic pressure), and what the various pressure losses are, the manifold pressure may be more or less than the ambient pressure. So, you are seeing about a 1" pressure increase due to ram air. Which pressure has increased by 1"? 1" relative to what? The manifold pressure? What do you mean by ram air? Do you mean that you have a way to bypass the air filter? Or do you mean that you are looking at the pressure increase due to motion (i.e. the dynamic pressure)? There is no rocket science to increasing manifold pressure, but the laws of physics will place limits on what you can do. Going faster will increase the dynamic pressure, which will increase the total pressure, which will mean more manifold pressure. Sort of a Catch 22 here - you want to go faster, so you want more manifold pressure. But you'll get more manifold pressure if you can figure out how to go faster. Have an air inlet with the lowest amount of frictional losses. The frictional losses are at the outside surface of the air inlet. So, you want the shape that has the least amount of circumference for a given area - i.e. a circle. Turbulence causes pressure losses, so you want smooth contours, and gentle changes in contour. No steps, or rapidly increasing areas. You want the shortest possible inlet duct, as that minimizes the frictional losses. You might get some benefit from having the air inlet further away from the prop hub, so you could get some pressure increase from the prop. Lopresti claimed to have gotten some benefit from this effect, but it could have been all smoke and mirrors. You want a smooth surface to the intake ducting and the intake manifold, to reduce the frictional losses. You want an air filter with the lowest pressure drop. Good luck, Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > >Dont remember where I came up with 1"???? Somewhere somebody posted the >calculated pressure available at 8k density alt for a standard day?. Well >we have had a few standard days here in the last month, I checked and saw >1" more than calculated at 185 MPH. Have no idea if this is right. I have >paid real attention to detail on sealing up everything I can on the air >box. It pained me to even add the drain hole for the FAB. > >Now after all this I just remember I was told that you cannot use the >barometric pressure as a comparison/base line to MP. Any info on this? How >and why are they different? If barometric pressure is 30.0 would max >manifold pressure also be the same barring any losses in the system? > > >At 10:34 AM 3/4/04 -0600, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ned Thomas" <315@cox.net> >> >>Hi Scott, >> >>I am still learning about these things but maybe I can help. I'm curious >>how you deduced the 1" MP increase due to ram air? It is interesting because >>at 170 mph you can expect about 1" of mercury pressure available at the air >>box. This can be calculated based on the formula for the dynamic pressure of >>a fluid where >> >>P = (V**2 d)/288 g >> >>where: >> >> P = lbs per sq. inch (psi) >>V = Velocity in feet per second (1mph = 1446 fps) >>d = density of air in pounds pwe cu. ft., standard sea level air density >>0.0762 pounds per cubic foot. >>g = acceleration of gravity in feet per second (32.2 feet per second) >> >>Based on this formulation at: >> >>170 mph =~1"hg >>300 mph =~3"hg >> >>To increase your Ram air pressure you can eliminate pressure drops, across >>air filters, induction systems, etc. For example a poorly designed air box >>may have a large pressure drop. Porting of the intake manifold and intake >>chambers on the head can help reduce pressure drop. Keep in mind that you >>are working with rather small increases in performance here for increasingly >>higher dollar costs. If you have the Van's FAB then you probably have a very >>low psi drop air box already. >> >>Your Fellow RV Enthusiast, >>Ned >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Scott Bilinski" >>To: >>Subject: RV-List: MP/Ram Air Question >> >> >>> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski >> >>> >>> Is there anyone out there who understands MP, ram air induction, and what >>> can be done to increase ram air pressure? I appear to be seeing about 1" >>MP >>> increase due to ram air. Can I get more? Is there a limit? Would a bigger >>> FAB help? Larger snorkel intake? Smaller snorkel intake? Any advice >>> appreciated. >>> >>> > >> Scott Bilinski > >> >>> >> >> > >Scott Bilinski ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:27 PM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" Lower your idle. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Sneed" Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > > For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and > wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a > o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I > shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term > dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets > ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture > to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and > the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started > happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only > way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the > airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is > off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage > (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) > all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this > happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but > last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I > did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that > should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed > since the avblend and I still have the problem. > > Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? > > > Jason Sneed > Commercial Lending Officer > First National Bank and Trust > http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html > > ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:38 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Jason, I have heard that this is the biggest reason for installing the purge valve with an Airflow Performance fuel injection system. For some reason the mixture apparently doesn't always shut the fuel off enough to stop the engine. Pulling the purge valve diverts the fuel from the injectors to the return line and the engine quits. Note that this is not from my own experience. I am still at the wiring stage, but my Superior XP-IO-360-B1B came from Bart with the purge valve already installed. A call to Airflow Performance ought to get you an authoritative answer. Terry RV-8A #80729 wiring --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and the master. ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:23 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternator cooling --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi Larry, Rain water should not be an issue. For me the fret level is very low in regard to the amount of water that might find it's way to the alternator via the blast tube. I am quite sure that the cars boats etc.that these units live in subject them to more moisture road filth and various other chemical pollution (anti freeze etc.) than your aircraft will see before TBO comes around. Firewall Forward huh, have baffling fun ! [:-) Jim in Kelowna From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: alternator cooling > --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > With using a blast air tube for cooling the alternator, is there any concern > about flying into rain and having rain water coming through the tube onto > the back of the alternator? > > Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip-up TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak JeffRose > Firewall Forward ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:48 PM PST US From: Jason Sneed Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed Jim... Tried that.... It is worse when I shutdown at 600 rpm. On Mar 4, 2004, at 10:17 PM, Jim Cimino wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" > > Lower your idle. > Jim > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason Sneed" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed >> >> For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and >> wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a >> o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I >> shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term >> dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel >> gets >> ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture >> to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and >> the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started >> happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only >> way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the >> airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is >> off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage >> (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) >> all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this >> happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but >> last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I >> did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that >> should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed >> since the avblend and I still have the problem. >> >> Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? >> >> >> Jason Sneed >> Commercial Lending Officer >> First National Bank and Trust >> http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:48 PM PST US From: Jason Sneed Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed I'll give them a call tomorrow.... The weird thing is that the engine went 275 hours without having this problem. Thanks, Jason On Mar 4, 2004, at 10:21 PM, Terry Watson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > Jason, > > I have heard that this is the biggest reason for installing the purge > valve > with an Airflow Performance fuel injection system. For some reason the > mixture apparently doesn't always shut the fuel off enough to stop the > engine. Pulling the purge valve diverts the fuel from the injectors > to the > return line and the engine quits. > > Note that this is not from my own experience. I am still at the wiring > stage, but my Superior XP-IO-360-B1B came from Bart with the purge > valve > already installed. A call to Airflow Performance ought to get you an > authoritative answer. > > Terry > RV-8A #80729 wiring > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > > For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and > wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a > o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I > shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term > dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets > ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture > to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and > the master. > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:59 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Jason Sneed wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > >For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and >wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a >o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I >shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term >dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets >ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture >to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and >the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started >happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only >way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the >airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is >off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage >(exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) >all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this >happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but >last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I >did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that >should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed >since the avblend and I still have the problem. > >Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? > > >Jason Sneed >Commercial Lending Officer >First National Bank and Trust >http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html > Well, I suspect that you may have a worn idle cutoff valve, or an intake leak, or both. The intake leak is easier to diagnose. Take a vacuum cleaner that you can attach the hose to the output. Clean the vacuum really good, and stuff the hose in the intake, and seal with a couple of rags. Turn the vacuum on ans spray really soapy water all over the intake system. Bubbles will tell you where the leaks are. 'Course this works much better with the cowl off. If no leaks are found, then you might try putting the throttle a little way in and then moving the mixture to idle cut-off ..... and if it still diesels, open up the throttle. That should create a really lean condition and stop the dieseling. If that doesn't work, then we have the carb. The carb is harder to diagnose and I don't have any good way to test it. The option may be to send it off for a rebuild. Good luck, Linn > > > > ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:47 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Jason Sneed wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > >For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and >wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a >o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I >shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term >dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets >ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture >to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and >the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started >happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only >way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the >airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is >off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage >(exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) >all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this >happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but >last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I >did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that >should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed >since the avblend and I still have the problem. > >Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? > > >Jason Sneed >Commercial Lending Officer >First National Bank and Trust >http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html > Well, I suspect that you may have a worn idle cutoff valve, or an intake leak, or both. The intake leak is easier to diagnose. Take a vacuum cleaner that you can attach the hose to the output. Clean the vacuum really good, and stuff the hose in the intake, and seal with a couple of rags. Turn the vacuum on ans spray really soapy water all over the intake system. Bubbles will tell you where the leaks are. 'Course this works much better with the cowl off. If no leaks are found, then you might try putting the throttle a little way in and then moving the mixture to idle cut-off ..... and if it still diesels, open up the throttle. That should create a really lean condition and stop the dieseling. If that doesn't work, then we have the carb. The carb is harder to diagnose and I don't have any good way to test it. The option may be to send it off for a rebuild. Good luck, Linn Do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:37 PM PST US From: "Ross Scroggs" Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Scroggs" The idle speed is a good answer but here is something else. Do you have a primer? If so, make sure it is locked in the off position and not allowing just enough fuel to pass into a couple of cylinders. It could be locked but still allowing fuel to pass. Might want to check it. Ross Scroggs Locust Grove, Ga. RV4 #3911 Wings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Sneed" Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > > For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and > wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a > o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I > shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term > dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets > ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture > to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and > the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started > happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only > way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the > airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is > off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage > (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) > all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this > happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but > last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I > did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that > should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed > since the avblend and I still have the problem. > > Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? > > > Jason Sneed > Commercial Lending Officer > First National Bank and Trust > http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html > > ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 09:25:06 PM PST US From: Jason Sneed Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed Thanks Ross... I have a boost pump that I just turn on until I get 4 GPH on the fuel flow gauge then turn it off and hit the started button. Thanks, Jason On Mar 4, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Ross Scroggs wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Scroggs" > > The idle speed is a good answer but here is something else. Do you > have a > primer? > If so, make sure it is locked in the off position and not allowing just > enough fuel to pass > into a couple of cylinders. It could be locked but still allowing > fuel to > pass. Might want > to check it. > > Ross Scroggs > Locust Grove, Ga. > RV4 #3911 Wings > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jason Sneed" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed >> >> For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and >> wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a >> o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I >> shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term >> dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel >> gets >> ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture >> to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and >> the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started >> happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only >> way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the >> airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is >> off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage >> (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) >> all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this >> happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but >> last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I >> did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that >> should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed >> since the avblend and I still have the problem. >> >> Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? >> >> >> Jason Sneed >> Commercial Lending Officer >> First National Bank and Trust >> http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html >> >> > > > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > _- > ======================================================================= > > > > Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:50 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi Jason, Not being a fuel injection person I cannot supply precise touble shooting information. However, dieseling can only occur when fuel is allowed to continue to flow into the combustion chambers even though you seemingly have shut it off. This would indicate things such as an internal valve is not sealing as it should, a sticking throttle staying open a bit might allow fuel to flow or as suggested a primming circut could be involved. Have you been watching the EGTs and CHTs for abnormal behavior. If extra fuel is getting through the system throughout the normal engine operation modes it might be promoting excess carbon buildup in the cylinders. This also would be consistant with the kind of running on that you describe. A call to the maker of your injection system is in order. I am inclined to suggest that you should not run this engine again until some serious trouble shooting is done and satisfactory results are achived. In serious cases internal engine damage due to dieseling is also quite possible. Let us know how it works out, good luck, Jin in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Sneed" Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > > For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and > wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a > o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I > shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term > dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets > ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture > to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and > the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started > happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only > way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the > airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is > off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage > (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) > all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this > happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but > last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I > did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that > should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed > since the avblend and I still have the problem. > > Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? > > > Jason Sneed > Commercial Lending Officer > First National Bank and Trust > http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html > > ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 11:06:35 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" Jason, I want to reiterate what Terry said. Read the AFP manual and you'll see that they even state (I forget where, but it's in there), that pulling the mixture will still allow X fuel flow, and that the purge valve is the way they encourage shutdowns. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Help me stop my engine > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > Jason, > > I have heard that this is the biggest reason for installing the purge valve > with an Airflow Performance fuel injection system. For some reason the > mixture apparently doesn't always shut the fuel off enough to stop the > engine. Pulling the purge valve diverts the fuel from the injectors to the > return line and the engine quits. > > Note that this is not from my own experience. I am still at the wiring > stage, but my Superior XP-IO-360-B1B came from Bart with the purge valve > already installed. A call to Airflow Performance ought to get you an > authoritative answer. > > Terry > RV-8A #80729 wiring > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed > > For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and > wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a > o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I > shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term > dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets > ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture > to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and > the master. > > ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:45 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: RSA Injection Basics, was (Help me stop my engine) . --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" I'll pre-emp this by saying I'm not trying to flame anyone here, I just can't think of the politically correct words to type, and since I'm a "tell it like it is" kind of guy, here you go! OK....Time for a quick lesson on injection....Obviously more than a couple people could use some basics on injection (really, I mean this helpfully, not sarcastically). #1) The RSA/AFP injection systems are pretty simple, not much to go wrong. #2) The RSA/AFP injection system does NOT use a separate primer circuit at all...see #3) #3) The RSA/AFP injection system is a constant flow system, meaning that (hopefully) anytime the mixture is not in ICO, fuel is flowing into the intake ports if either the engine is running or the mixture is not in ICO. Priming is accomplished by moving the mixture to rich, and turning on the boost pump for a specified amount of time (seems different on each persons Lyc), usually 4-8 seconds. These fuel systems run around 20-30psi, instead of 2-4psi for the carb's. #4) The AFP purge valve is usually installed to help starting, NOT stopping a F.I. Lyc. The problem with the RSA type system that has the bare Stainless Steel distribution lines above the cylinder, is that usually after shutdown, the fuel remaining in distribution lines is boiled and ends up in the intake ports, resulting in a "pseudo" flooded engine - more like just an abundance of fuel/vapors. Since a typical FI system has the metered fuel line running from the servo up to the spider on top of the engine routed between cylinders #1 & #3, all of these components contribute to quick heat soaking if fuel is not moving through them. The spider/flow divider has a small ball/check valve installed in them to help with this phenomenon. #5) The thought behind the purge valve is to allow an operator to circulate fresh cool fuel to the flow divider before starting the engine and gettin rid of all the vapor bubbles in the line to that point. At least that's the claim, in real life, I've seen little benefit on heat soaked engine/hot day combinations between my -360 w/o a purge valve and the guys that have them installed. Without electronic ignition, they all can be a bear to start when hot/hot. #6) Using the purge valve to shutoff the engine is not a wise thing, you're just "bandaiding" the real problem, which obviously is with the servo / ICO itself. #7) The Servo uses "blast tubes" to measure the air moving through the servo. These only start working above a normal idle, as at normal idle, the butterfly is almost completely close. Hence the Idle circuit builit into the servo. This is an adjustable circuit which allows the operator to adjust a flow of fuel relative to the throttle being at idle. Like I just said, the idle mixture adjustment is hooked to the throttle, NOT the mixture, so you adjust the fuel flow at idle accordingly. Here's where I would start. Check the adjustment on the idle mixture arm, it's the little square threaded portion with the spring keeper / star shaped wheel in the center of it. Make sure that hasn't either moved a great deal or even come disconnected. Make sure you are still getting a small rise in RPM right before ICO. If not, then it's a prett good indication that the idle mixture is out of adjustment. Either way, I would start with the idle mixture adjustment. This can be done with the engine idling and you can adjust it with the engine running. WARNING -DO NOT DO THIS ALONE, make sure someone is in the cockpit holding the breaks, and WARNING - WATCH THE PROP, always keep one hand holding onto the engine mount. The smart thing to do is basically sit on the wheel with the L/G between your legs to keep yourself from accidentally falling into the prop. This is for a TD, don'e know about a nosewheel airplane. If you're not comfortable working on a running engine, DON'T do it, get someone who is experienced to do it. Too many accidents have happened that way! The fact that you're having problems at slower idle would also point the the above diagnosis. You should easily be able to get these things to lope along at 550-650RPM. When idling, do you get any backfiring, or is the exhaust puffing white or black colored smoke?? Also indicates something amiss with the idle mixture or as mentioned earlier, a possible induction leak, althought an induction lead shouldn't have any bearing on the engine continuing to get fuel after ICO. OK, that's it for my rant. The idle mixture can be a finiky thing when out of adjustment, so I'd start there. If no progress, then something else is wrong. Last thing, check the mixture arm on the servo to make sure it has't moved a notch or something like that - I've seen it happen! The servo's should be good for at least 1500hrs, or engine TBO if taken care of and kept in adjustment. Usually the rubber diaphrams wear out, and the throttle arm bushings wear, but rarely to they just plain quit working. Best of luck, keep us informed! Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis (1 injected & 1 carb'd). http://www.steinair.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Jason Sneed Subject: RV-List: Help me stop my engine --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed For the last 2 months I have had a problem I can not figure out and wanted to see if anyone has a direction to point me. I have a 6 with a o-360 with the airflow performance fuel injection system. When I shutdown, the engine is dieseling really bad. I did not know the term dieseling but it basically means the engine will not shutdown fuel gets ignited somehow and keeps turning the engine over. I pull the mixture to idle cut off and then hit the electronic ignition and the mag and the master. I do all this with about 1000 rpm. Before this started happening I could shutdown any way I wanted with no problem. The only way to get the prop to stop spinning and vibrating the heck out of the airplane is to shove the mixture to full rich while everything else is off and the engine is just dieseling. Not only is this causing damage (exhaust breakage) it is dangerous. Tonight I cleaned (sand blasted) all the top plugs, this made no difference. Has anyone had this happen? What should I do next? I am suspect of the mixture control but last time I checked the control was hitting the stop. The only thing I did right before this happened was add avblend to the oil (I know that should have nothing to do with the problem). The oil has been changed since the avblend and I still have the problem. Any ideas to help my RV not come off as a clunker on the flight line? Jason Sneed Commercial Lending Officer First National Bank and Trust http://www.highland-parks.com/n242ds/index.html