Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:18 AM - Engines again (Michael Saffold)
2. 12:49 AM - Re: Engines again (Bob U.)
3. 04:56 AM - Re: Elevator horns? (Alex Peterson)
4. 05:06 AM - Elevator horns ()
5. 05:45 AM - Re: Elevator horns? (Larry Bowen)
6. 06:40 AM - Flap brace (Ken Simmons)
7. 07:40 AM - Re: Engines again (James E. Clark)
8. 07:56 AM - Re: Engines again (Finn Lassen)
9. 08:02 AM - RV8 elevator horns (Gordon Robertson)
10. 08:12 AM - Re: Flap brace (Mickey Coggins)
11. 08:25 AM - Re: RV8 elevator horns (J. R. Dial)
12. 10:05 AM - Re: stick/rudder lock (Ed Bundy)
13. 10:07 AM - Re: Engines again (Michael Saffold)
14. 10:19 AM - Re: Engine monitoring (kempthornes)
15. 10:30 AM - Re: stick/rudder lock (Gert)
16. 10:42 AM - Re: Engine monitoring (Bruce Gray)
17. 10:45 AM - Re: Engine monitoring (kempthornes)
18. 10:55 AM - Re: Engine monitoring (kempthornes)
19. 02:19 PM - Airport Data (GMC)
20. 04:23 PM - Stupid canopy question (thomas a. sargent)
21. 04:40 PM - Re: Stupid canopy question (Darwin N. Barrie)
22. 04:53 PM - Re: Stupid canopy question (Harvey Sigmon)
23. 05:15 PM - Re: Stupid canopy question (Larry Pardue)
24. 06:22 PM - Re: Garmin 296 color GPS (Dave Setser)
25. 06:35 PM - Re: Engines again / Weights (Tracy Crook)
26. 06:36 PM - Re: Stupid canopy question (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
27. 06:51 PM - Re: Engine monitoring (Tracy Crook)
28. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: Garmin 296 color GPS (Jim Jewell)
29. 07:43 PM - RV List Fly-in Fish Fry (smoothweasel@juno.com)
30. 08:23 PM - Re: RV List Fly-in Fish Fry (Phil Sisson,)
31. 08:58 PM - Re: Engine monitoring (James E. Clark)
32. 11:18 PM - Edge Roller Wave (Warren W Hurd)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Saffold" <michaelsaffold@hotmail.com>
I know that lots of people on the list are deciding which engine to go with. Whether
it's a Lycoming or one of the popular auto conversions, it seams to me that
to make the best decision we need to consider four factors: Safety, Weight,
Power, Cost and Ease of Installation. Safety and Ease of Installation are subjective
areas. The other three are (or should be) easily quantified.
I would like to put together an apples to apples comparison of some of the major
engine options. This could then be used as a reference to more intelligently
discuss the options and could be a good yard stick to judge other engine packages
when they come on the market.
Weight can be difficult to get nailed down. We have to decide if we are talking
about FWF weight, or just the engine alone. A "basic or average" FWF weight may
be the best comparison because comparing engine only weights between auto engines
and airplane engines is misleading. Auto engines require a prop reduction
unit, radiators and liquid at approx 8lbs/gal while airplane engines do not.
A while back someone posted the weights for all the common Lycoming engines.
The weights listed included:
carburetor or fuel injection
magnetos
spark plugs, ignition harness
inter cylinder baffles
starter
generator or alternator with mounting brackets
For a fair comparison an auto engine should include:
carburetor or fuel injection
ignition system
spark plugs, ignition harness
starter
alternator with mounting brackets
prop reduction unit
coolant weight
cooling system (radiators, hoses)
Does everyone agree that this is basically FWF weight? Is there something missing?
Can the engine mount and exhaust system be removed from the equation because
they would be about the same for any system?
I'm trying to come up with a standard for comparison, even if it's not actually
the true FWF weight. Maybe we should call it the "RV List Comparison Weight"
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Engines again |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." <rv3@comcast.net>
Michael Saffold wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Saffold" <michaelsaffold@hotmail.com>
>
>I know that lots of people on the list are deciding which engine to go with. Whether
it's a Lycoming or one of the popular auto conversions, it seams to me
that to make the best decision we need to consider four factors: Safety, Weight,
Power, Cost and Ease of Installation. Safety and Ease of Installation are subjective
areas. The other three are (or should be) easily quantified.
>
Dunno what "lots" is, but....
For me, with more than 50 years of flight --
It's more about CERTIFIED RELIABILITY then ever before.
Not to mention being INSURABLE....
preferably, at LOW COST.
YMMV.
Lycoming Bob
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Allen Fulmer" <afulmer@charter.net>
>
> Just did mine tonight and noticed the same "problem". Don't
> think it matters when you consider the geometry of the setup.
>
Just be sure to not put any loads on them to "bring" them back to
alignment. When you drill the hole(s) for the bearing and pushrod, make
sure that the elevators are both in trail, and the horns will have to be
wherever they end up. Also, make sure that there aren't lateral loads -
use washers as appropriate.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 445 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
Thanks to all who replied, This list sure is great!!!,
after a little adjusting of the rod end bearings the horns are only slightly off
and from what I hear thats OK!. Sorry to bug you guys with silly questions,
but I sure do appreciate it!
Have a great day
Kirk 81925
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I used a .025 shim under each weldment and they lined up perfectly.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 FWF
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Checkoway [mailto:dan@rvproject.com]
> Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 7:40 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Elevator horns?
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> Par for the course. Mine were like that, too. Drill 'em
> where they are, with the elevators clamped in trail (use a
> digital protractor if you're anal), and it'll all work out fine. 8-)
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <groves@epix.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Elevator horns?
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> > I just fit up my elevators today and don't know if I have
> a problem
> > or
> not. I clamped my elevators in trail just as the manual says,
> but the elevator horns don't match up perfect. The left
> elevator horn is slightly lower and the horns are a little
> out of line fore and aft, I can line everything up by using
> my hands and slightly moving the horns. Is this normal or are
> my elevators a little out of wack. Any advice would be
> greatly appreciated
> > Thanks
> > Kirk RV-8
> >
> >
>
>
> ============
> Matronics Forums.
> ============
> ============
> ============
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
The discussion on countersinking was timely. I'm trying to fit the flap brace/flap
using the temp rivet method that Dan Checkoway wrote up.
The issue I have is countersinking the flap brace. It's basically impossible to
countersink this without enlarging the holes some. Yes the thickness is .040,
but the countersink has to be deep enough for a dimpled skin not just a rivet.
It seems these rivets would experience some significant shear load the way the
brace is installed.
It seems I would have had the same problem when doing the flap side of the hinge/flap
spar. I just don't recall it. Am I making to big a deal of this?
Thanks.
Ken
RV-8
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Mike,
You probably folded this under "safety" but one thing you might consider is
"reliability".
Of course this is not easy to get at either. As a proxy you could start with
TBO as that is a timeframe that the supplier **currently** thinks the engine
will operate safely.
Another measure of this could be MTBF. The problem then would be getting
some actual failure data.
So that this is not viewed as one type of engine vs another ... take the
scenario where someone produces a Lycoming clone that is lighter, produces
more power for the weight and a specific amount of fuel, and comes as a
*complete* firewall forward offering, many would want to jump on it. But if
we found that the crankshaft broke within 50 hours on the first 5 that were
installed, we might think otherwise.
Just more food for thought.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Michael Saffold
> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 3:18 AM
> To: RV List
> Subject: RV-List: Engines again
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Saffold"
> <michaelsaffold@hotmail.com>
>
> I know that lots of people on the list are deciding which engine
> to go with. Whether it's a Lycoming or one of the popular auto
> conversions, it seams to me that to make the best decision we
> need to consider four factors: Safety, Weight, Power, Cost and
> Ease of Installation. Safety and Ease of Installation are
> subjective areas. The other three are (or should be) easily quantified.
>
[snip]
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engines again |
--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
The idea comparison would include *everything* FWF.
After all, that is what determines empty weight of the airplane and
climb performance, as far as the power plant is concerned.
With an operational installation (oil and coolant topped off),
remove the gear legs,
unbolt the engine mount from the firewall (and any parts mounted to it)
and weigh it and the two cowling halfs.
Nuts, bolts, brackets, baffels, cowling fiberglass work, engine mount
pieces, exhaust system, intake system - it all adds up. At a wild guess
I would say you could see as much as 50 pounds difference in two
automotive installations with the same basic engine.
By all means specify how much idividual parts weight:
prop
spinner w/hardware
prop nuts/bolts, any prop extention
starter
alternator
PSRU (including all hardware and oil)
etc.
Of course, who would want to do the above? But that would give the
ideal comparison.
Finn
RV-3 Mazda 13B Rotary 435 hours.
Michael Saffold wrote:
>Does everyone agree that this is basically FWF weight? Is there something missing?
Can the engine mount and exhaust system be removed from the equation because
they would be about the same for any system?
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | RV8 elevator horns |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon Robertson" <grobertson@verizon.net>
CAUTION CAUTION... Make sure that when you drill them, there is enough
clearance around the hole on both elevator horns. I did not do this, just
drilled away from one side. I was VERY LUCKY to have just enough clearance
on the other side. I did not check it properly in advance.
Gordon Robertson
RV8 ready for engine
>Par for the course. Mine were like that, too. Drill 'em where they are,
>with the elevators clamped in trail (use a digital protractor if you're
>anal), and it'll all work out fine. 8-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <groves@epix.net>
Subject: RV-List: Elevator horns?
> --> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I just fit up my elevators today and don't know if I have a problem or
not. I clamped my elevators in trail just as the manual says, but the
elevator horns don't match up perfect. The left elevator horn is slightly
lower and the horns are a little out of line fore and aft, I can line
everything up by using my hands and slightly moving the horns. Is this
normal or are my elevators a little out of wack. Any advice would be greatly
appreciated
> Thanks
> Kirk RV-8
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
If you think countersinking them will be hard, wait
until you try to rivet them! May want to practice
that before you drill. I couldn't and Van's said
to just use a nut and washer. Works fine, but
then you need to do a little cutout on the floors
to leave space for those plastic holders. That
worked great for me.
Mickey
>The discussion on countersinking was timely. I'm trying to fit the flap brace/flap
using the temp rivet method that Dan Checkoway wrote up.
>
>The issue I have is countersinking the flap brace. It's basically impossible to
countersink this without enlarging the holes some. Yes the thickness is .040,
but the countersink has to be deep enough for a dimpled skin not just a rivet.
It seems these rivets would experience some significant shear load the way
the brace is installed.
>
>It seems I would have had the same problem when doing the flap side of the hinge/flap
spar. I just don't recall it. Am I making to big a deal of this?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 11
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| Subject: | RV8 elevator horns |
--> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" <jrdial@hal-pc.org>
On my RV6 mine were so far off I had to weld in a piece so as to
have enough material for proper edge distance. I have a friend in my
hanger that just used them as they came and his elevators are about 3/8"
out but the plane fly's great and fast for 160 HP wood prop.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gordon
Robertson
Subject: RV-List: RV8 elevator horns
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon Robertson"
<grobertson@verizon.net>
CAUTION CAUTION... Make sure that when you drill them, there is enough
clearance around the hole on both elevator horns. I did not do this,
just
drilled away from one side. I was VERY LUCKY to have just enough
clearance
on the other side. I did not check it properly in advance.
Gordon Robertson
RV8 ready for engine
>Par for the course. Mine were like that, too. Drill 'em where they
are,
>with the elevators clamped in trail (use a digital protractor if you're
>anal), and it'll all work out fine. 8-)
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <groves@epix.net>
Subject: RV-List: Elevator horns?
> --> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
>
> Hello everyone,
> I just fit up my elevators today and don't know if I have a problem
or
not. I clamped my elevators in trail just as the manual says, but the
elevator horns don't match up perfect. The left elevator horn is
slightly
lower and the horns are a little out of line fore and aft, I can line
everything up by using my hands and slightly moving the horns. Is this
normal or are my elevators a little out of wack. Any advice would be
greatly
appreciated
> Thanks
> Kirk RV-8
==
==
==
==
Message 12
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| Subject: | stick/rudder lock |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <edbundy@velocitus.net>
I'm not sure I understand the concern here. Yes, taking off with locked
controls would be disastrous, but ordinary care and standard operating
procedures give two separate times to find this out before flight.
Personally, I use a small doohickey that locks the outboard portion of the
aileron to the wingtip, another that locks the elevator in trail with the
stab, and a piece of piano wire to lock the rudder horn to the V stab. They
are all very light, small, simple, and have a bright orange streamer hanging
from them. They also keep gust loads off of the control surfaces that might
occur using the seatbelt method.
As for it being a safety of flight issue, the streamers are very hard to
miss, and even without any, wouldn't a control lock show up during even the
briefest preflight? If a preflight isn't done, there are a lot of other
things that may create problems for the flight.
Then there's the pre-takeoff checklist - even the most basic ones have
"flight controls free and correct".
I'm not trying to be preachy, but if one fails to move the control surfaces
during the preflight, and neglects to wiggle the stick and rudder before
pouring on the coal, some other unchecked gremlin will probably get them
even if they do use cockpit correctable control locks. Plus, I don't see
how it would even be possible to taxi for takeoff without using the rudder.
Sorry for the rant, I guess I really just wanted to point out the importance
of before-start, and pre-flight checklists.
Ed Bundy - Eagle, Idaho
RV6A 600+ hours
> I think Wheeler had a great point about not putting a lock on flight
> controls that could not be removed from the cockpit.
> > As for the rudder, I took a piece of 2"X2" (I think) scrap angle stock,
> cut
> > it narrow enough to fit from the rudder lock to the rudder stop. I
> drilled
>
---
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Engines again |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Saffold" <michaelsaffold@hotmail.com>
Finn Lassen wrote:
"The idea comparison would include *everything* FWF.
After all, that is what determines empty weight of the airplane and
climb performance, as far as the power plant is concerned.
With an operational installation (oil and coolant topped off),
remove the gear legs, unbolt the engine mount from the firewall (and any parts
mounted to it) and weigh it and the two cowling halves.
Nuts, bolts, brackets, baffles, cowling fiberglass work, engine mount
pieces, exhaust system, intake system - it all adds up. At a wild guess
I would say you could see as much as 50 pounds difference in two
automotive installations with the same basic engine."
Finn, you are undoubtedly correct. The most accurate comparison would include everything.
However as you also point out, most people will not do all that.
To get some numbers for comparison there needs to be a compromise between impossible
to obtain exact numbers and easy to get gross generalizations. We have
the weights from Lycoming for their engines with given components, lets compare
the weights of the other options with the equivalent components. Do you know
the weight of your 13B installation with the following?
fuel injection
ignition system
spark plugs, ignition harness
starter
alternator with mounting brackets
prop reduction unit
coolant & cooling system
Again since we have these figures from Lycoming we can start there as a benchmark.
We can then get the same numbers for average subaru, rotary, and even V8 LS-1
installations. Once we have a "reasonably" close idea of weight and power
we can talk more about cost benefit of a given choice.
I would like to stay away from the subjective areas of safety & reliability. We
are all building or thinking about building our own aircraft. I am sure we all
used our own criteria and made a decision about the safety and reliability of
doing that. The safest most reliable transportation is probably walking. On
the other hand people have soared thousands of feet into the air by strapping
weather balloons to lawn chairs and descended by shooting them one by one with
a pellet gun. Discussions about reliability and safety are interesting but I
would like to get some weight, power, and cost numbers together first.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 09:53 AM 3/18/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>The problem with that approach is that you still need to see the raw
>data to confirm that a true alarm condition exists. What you want can be
>done with 'idiot lights'.
Thanks, Bruce, but what I want can't be done with idiot lights. I do have
one for oil pressure, right next to the gauge. Now all I need for my idiot
light is a tiny computer between it and the oil pressure sender. This
little computer would watch the oil pressure and turn on the light if the
pressure began an undesirable trend. Of course, the computer would also
have to know engine RPM and probably manifold vacuum. I guess I would call
it a 'brainy light'.
Software people used to have a name for raw data. Sometimes they actually
called it raw data but they also called it 'garbage in'. After filtering
the raw input for anomalies (flyers) the input is ready for
processing. Picture a little person inside the box, or better still, a
copilot! The copilot watches the engine instruments but instead of telling
you, the pilot, the reading he gets from each instrument as he scans them
but speaks only when he sees something troublesome. "Hey, pilot, the EGT
for number five is over 1400!" Maybe he just tells you to enrich mixture
slightly. If he reaches out and adjusts the mixture do we then have FADEC?
The problem with the existing system is that the information you need as
pilot in command comes too late. The gauge is timely enough but the PIC is
busy dealing with weather, turbulence, charts or looking out the window. I
had a salty old instructor once who insisted that being able to fly on
instruments had to be so automatic that you could handle what he once had
to. He was setting up for approach in heavy rain and turbulence when the
pax next to him dropped his cigarette and one in back began puking while
another screamed. Could we expect him to be watching engine instruments??
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: stick/rudder lock |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Hi Ed
At least one plane every year for as long as I can remember will taxi
out with at least one streamer hanging off of the airplane. Lucky for
them, the ground crews will catch it before they actaully reach the
treshhold. I'd say the pitot cover seems to be the worst offender here.
Point is, it may never happen to you, but some unlucky sod is going to
do it, for whatever reason, just like people take of on empty fueltanks,
tanks switched off, etc.
One does not have to actually take off, rolling into somebody/something
because the rudder did not work is bad enough.
Anything one can do to make it more obvious, is an accident prevented.
Ed Bundy wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <edbundy@velocitus.net>
>
> I'm not sure I understand the concern here. Yes, taking off with locked
> controls would be disastrous, but ordinary care and standard operating
> procedures give two separate times to find this out before flight.
>
> Personally, I use a small doohickey that locks the outboard portion of the
> aileron to the wingtip, another that locks the elevator in trail with the
> stab, and a piece of piano wire to lock the rudder horn to the V stab. They
> are all very light, small, simple, and have a bright orange streamer hanging
> from them. They also keep gust loads off of the control surfaces that might
> occur using the seatbelt method.
>
> As for it being a safety of flight issue, the streamers are very hard to
> miss, and even without any, wouldn't a control lock show up during even the
> briefest preflight? If a preflight isn't done, there are a lot of other
> things that may create problems for the flight.
>
> Then there's the pre-takeoff checklist - even the most basic ones have
> "flight controls free and correct".
>
> I'm not trying to be preachy, but if one fails to move the control surfaces
> during the preflight, and neglects to wiggle the stick and rudder before
> pouring on the coal, some other unchecked gremlin will probably get them
> even if they do use cockpit correctable control locks. Plus, I don't see
> how it would even be possible to taxi for takeoff without using the rudder.
>
> Sorry for the rant, I guess I really just wanted to point out the importance
> of before-start, and pre-flight checklists.
>
> Ed Bundy - Eagle, Idaho
> RV6A 600+ hours
>
>
>
>>I think Wheeler had a great point about not putting a lock on flight
>>controls that could not be removed from the cockpit.
>
>
>>>As for the rudder, I took a piece of 2"X2" (I think) scrap angle stock,
>>
>>cut
>>
>>>it narrow enough to fit from the rudder lock to the rudder stop. I
>>
>>drilled
>>
>
> ---
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 16
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| Subject: | Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Oh, I know what you mean. The issue with trend monitors is that again,
you need to see the raw data to verify a true alarm condition. Most of
the engine analyzers have trend monitoring. Some have deviations from
norm alarms. I would prefer the later.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of kempthornes
Subject: RE: RV-List: Engine monitoring
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 09:53 AM 3/18/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>The problem with that approach is that you still need to see the raw
>data to confirm that a true alarm condition exists. What you want can
be
>done with 'idiot lights'.
Thanks, Bruce, but what I want can't be done with idiot lights. I do
have
one for oil pressure, right next to the gauge. Now all I need for my
idiot
light is a tiny computer between it and the oil pressure sender. This
little computer would watch the oil pressure and turn on the light if
the
pressure began an undesirable trend. Of course, the computer would also
have to know engine RPM and probably manifold vacuum. I guess I would
call
it a 'brainy light'.
Software people used to have a name for raw data. Sometimes they
actually
called it raw data but they also called it 'garbage in'. After
filtering
the raw input for anomalies (flyers) the input is ready for
processing. Picture a little person inside the box, or better still, a
copilot! The copilot watches the engine instruments but instead of
telling
you, the pilot, the reading he gets from each instrument as he scans
them
but speaks only when he sees something troublesome. "Hey, pilot, the
EGT
for number five is over 1400!" Maybe he just tells you to enrich
mixture
slightly. If he reaches out and adjusts the mixture do we then have
FADEC?
The problem with the existing system is that the information you need as
pilot in command comes too late. The gauge is timely enough but the PIC
is
busy dealing with weather, turbulence, charts or looking out the window.
I
had a salty old instructor once who insisted that being able to fly on
instruments had to be so automatic that you could handle what he once
had
to. He was setting up for approach in heavy rain and turbulence when
the
pax next to him dropped his cigarette and one in back began puking while
another screamed. Could we expect him to be watching engine
instruments??
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
==
==
==
==
Message 17
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| Subject: | Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 11:35 AM 3/18/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>This doesn't answer your desire for less than $500, but check out Blue
>Mountain EFIS/one's approach. You don't see the engine instruments on the
>screen unless you want to, OR one of them goes outside of the range you have
>set for it. Then it pops up to alert you.
Very nifty indeed. I would love to have one but a little out of my league
at $15000 without probes!
What these systems are is a bright little monitor and a tiny computer -
with some input devices. The monitors and computers are already cheap to
make and the devices are dropping in price rapidly. As the price falls,
the demand will rise which will mean increased production and more units to
spread the cost of development over which will cause price to fall.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 10:56 AM 3/19/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
>
>I thought about designing and selling a simple and cheap engine monitor,
>but the price growns rapidly if you don't want to answer endless
>questions for free
Finn, the costs you will incur once your monitor is in production will not
be the big issue. It is the development cost that makes new stuff expensive.
I once was part of a team of software engineers, all at more than $60K in
the '80s. We blew away a whole day on the logging in process and just how
it should work because that really concerned the lead engineer! I
estimated that the company spent over a million before they got a single
line of code but the fact is, it was money well spent!
Developing a simple little engine monitor ought to be much cheaper since
everything for it already exists.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "GMC" <gmcnutt@uniserve.com>
A few days ago someone was looking for airport data for Canadian airports,
FYI the following web site has basic data on world-wide airports.
http://worldaerodata.com/countries/
George in Langley
Message 20
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| Subject: | Stupid canopy question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
I just got the gas struts installed on my tip-up canopy frame and
screwed the plexi in place and marveled at my 6A holding its canopy up.
A great sight. However, I discovered something unexpected when I closed
it. Once the canopy gets low enough so that the strut attachment point
drops below the level of the canopy hinge, the struts start forcing it
closed rather than holding it open.
So, the question is this: When you walk up to a closed plane and un-do
the latch, how do you raise the canopy? There's nothing on the outside
to grab hold of and the gas struts are doing their best to keep it
closed. What am I missing here?
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy.
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Stupid canopy question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
The 7 has a little piece of angle that is riveted on near the back to open
the canopy. I'm sure the 6 has something similar.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-List: Stupid canopy question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
>
> I just got the gas struts installed on my tip-up canopy frame and
> screwed the plexi in place and marveled at my 6A holding its canopy up.
> A great sight. However, I discovered something unexpected when I closed
> it. Once the canopy gets low enough so that the strut attachment point
> drops below the level of the canopy hinge, the struts start forcing it
> closed rather than holding it open.
>
> So, the question is this: When you walk up to a closed plane and un-do
> the latch, how do you raise the canopy? There's nothing on the outside
> to grab hold of and the gas struts are doing their best to keep it
> closed. What am I missing here?
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy.
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Stupid canopy question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes@comcast.net>
On the tip up canopies, sometimes you will find a tab at the center aft
edge to raise the canopy straight up. On my last RV-6 I placed a tab at the
aft lower end of the canopy skirt on both sides of the canopy for easy
access. I also installed the tabs for my sliding canopy on my current 6A.
Harvey Sigmon RV-6A Flying
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stupid canopy question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
> The 7 has a little piece of angle that is riveted on near the back to
open
> the canopy. I'm sure the 6 has something similar.
>
> Darwin N. Barrie
> Chandler AZ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Stupid canopy question
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent"
<sarg314@earthlink.net>
> >
> > I just got the gas struts installed on my tip-up canopy frame and
> > screwed the plexi in place and marveled at my 6A holding its canopy up.
> > A great sight. However, I discovered something unexpected when I closed
> > it. Once the canopy gets low enough so that the strut attachment point
> > drops below the level of the canopy hinge, the struts start forcing it
> > closed rather than holding it open.
> >
> > So, the question is this: When you walk up to a closed plane and un-do
> > the latch, how do you raise the canopy? There's nothing on the outside
> > to grab hold of and the gas struts are doing their best to keep it
> > closed. What am I missing here?
> > --
> > Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Canopy.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Stupid canopy question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
>
>
> So, the question is this: When you walk up to a closed plane and un-do
> the latch, how do you raise the canopy? There's nothing on the outside
> to grab hold of and the gas struts are doing their best to keep it
> closed. What am I missing here?
> --
I think most everyone fabricates a simple L shaped bracket to grab hold of.
It normally goes right at the rear of the left side of the canopy frame. I
guess Van's still doesn't tell all.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 296 color GPS |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Setser" <setser@rcn.com>
While snooping around Garmin's booth at the Heli-Expo in Vegas last
week, I saw an early version of the 296. Garmin's reps were trying to
keep it hidden, but they couldn't resist playing with it. The color map
was very nice - terrain is depicted in color, like a sectional. The
Garmin rep also said that it will have some EGPWS-like functions that
would provide warnings of approaching terrain.
By the way, hello to everyone on the list! I've been lurking for the
past couple of years, reading, learning and saving my pennies. I just
received my RV-7 tail kit and can't wait to get started!
Best regards,
Dave Setser
RV-7 Empennage
Arlington MA
Do Not Archive
--> RV-List message posted by: "Robin Wessel" <Robin.Wessel@verizon.net
<mailto:Robin.Wessel@verizon.net?subject=Re:%20Garmin%20296%20color%20GP
S&replyto=200403202012.i2KKCqN23996@matronics.com> >
Attention gadget geeks-
Got an e-mail from Pacific Coast Avionics previewing the new Garmin 296,
a color version of the 196.
price: $1,699
---
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: Engines again / Weights |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
OK I'll throw mine in. These are the figures for my currently flying configuration.
The 2004 Renesis rotary that I'm getting ready to install will weigh about
22 pounds less.
1989 vintage Mazda 13B rotary
with water pump & plugs - 180 lbs
carburetor or fuel injection - 13.5 lbs very crude manifold, throttle body,
injectors, fuel rails, fuel pumps (2)
ignition system - 6 lbs (coil/igniter modules)
spark plugs, ignition harness - Plugs included in "long block" weight
starter - 7.5 lbs
alternator with mounting brackets - 9.2 lbs.
prop reduction unit - 42 lbs
coolant weight - 12.7 lbs (7 qts 50/50 mix)
cooling system (radiators, hoses) - 15 lbs (includes oil cooler)
total - 285.9 lbs
Tracy Crook
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Stupid canopy question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
I used 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/16 angle stock about 2 inches long and drilled it for
the last 3 blind rivets that go into the canopy frame just in front of the rear
skirt on my slider. I would assume you could use the same dimensions for your
tip-up, but maybe not the same position.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (almost done) building my "spare rudder" right now
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 10:56 AM 3/19/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
>
>I thought about designing and selling a simple and cheap engine monitor,
>but the price growns rapidly if you don't want to answer endless
>questions for free
Finn, the costs you will incur once your monitor is in production will not
be the big issue. It is the development cost that makes new stuff expensive.
I once was part of a team of software engineers, all at more than $60K in
the '80s. We blew away a whole day on the logging in process and just how
it should work because that really concerned the lead engineer! I
estimated that the company spent over a million before they got a single
line of code but the fact is, it was money well spent!
Developing a simple little engine monitor ought to be much cheaper since
everything for it already exists.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
Ok, lets say you are incredibly successful and capture 33% of the RV market over
the past 20 years. That's about 1170 units. That million bucks blown before
the first line of code is written represents $854.70 per unit and you haven't
paid for any production costs yet. It also assumes you didn't starve to death
during those 20 years.
Yeah, I know, you could do it for well under a mil, but it ain't as easy as it
sounds.
Tracy Crook
(Lots of time & effort invested, way less than 1% engine monitor market penetration,
but having gobs of fun)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 296 color GPS |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Dave,
Welcome aboard!
Jim in Kelowna do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Setser" <setser@rcn.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 296 color GPS
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Setser" <setser@rcn.com>
>
> While snooping around Garmin's booth at the Heli-Expo in Vegas last
> week, I saw an early version of the 296. Garmin's reps were trying to
> keep it hidden, but they couldn't resist playing with it. The color map
> was very nice - terrain is depicted in color, like a sectional. The
> Garmin rep also said that it will have some EGPWS-like functions that
> would provide warnings of approaching terrain.
>
> By the way, hello to everyone on the list! I've been lurking for the
> past couple of years, reading, learning and saving my pennies. I just
> received my RV-7 tail kit and can't wait to get started!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dave Setser
> RV-7 Empennage
> Arlington MA
>
> Do Not Archive
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Robin Wessel" <Robin.Wessel@verizon.net
> <mailto:Robin.Wessel@verizon.net?subject=Re:%20Garmin%20296%20color%20GP
> S&replyto=200403202012.i2KKCqN23996@matronics.com> >
>
> Attention gadget geeks-
>
> Got an e-mail from Pacific Coast Avionics previewing the new Garmin 296,
> a color version of the 196.
>
> price: $1,699
>
>
> ---
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | RV List Fly-in Fish Fry |
--> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
Hey Guys/Gals, we are planning a fly-in fish fry for anyone that wants
to come. All ya need ta do is fly in and eat. The strip is 2000ft. grass
and is located right on a fish farm here in east Mississippi. If you have
ever been in this area you have noticed the large amount of ponds here so
this is a great opportunity for you to try some
locally-raised-farm-grown-CATFISH!!!!! Invite your friends (and
enemies......... you don't have to have an RV) and come on down for some
great food.
Location: approx. 10 east of Macon, MS
Please let me know off line if you plan to be there so we know how many
fish to catch!!!!! and I will give ya more specific directions. I
will try to send out another email closer to the fryin date.
Joel "Weasel" Graber
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Re: RV List Fly-in Fish Fry |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson," <sisson@consolidated.net>
smoothweasel@juno.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
>
> Hey Guys/Gals, we are planning a fly-in fish fry for anyone that wants
> to come. All ya need ta do is fly in and eat. The strip is 2000ft. grass
> and is located right on a fish farm here in east Mississippi. If you have
> ever been in this area you have noticed the large amount of ponds here so
> this is a great opportunity for you to try some
> locally-raised-farm-grown-CATFISH!!!!! Invite your friends (and
> enemies......... you don't have to have an RV) and come on down for some
> great food.
>
> Date: May 15
>
> Location: approx. 10 east of Macon, MS
>
> Please let me know off line if you plan to be there so we know how many
> fish to catch!!!!! and I will give ya more specific directions. I
> will try to send out another email closer to the fryin date.
>
> Joel "Weasel" Graber
Yankee's too?
phil
Message 31
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| Subject: | Engine monitoring |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
I remember talking to a fella once whose brother felt that the likes of
Insight and JPI were charging way too much for their engine monitors. He
felt that surely he could "build a better (cheaper) mousetrap and they
launched an effort to do so.
They gave it a valiant try bit I think they too discovered that it is in
fact difficult and the price needs to be closer to where it is today than
where we might wish it were.
This is not to say that we should endeavor to puch the envelope to develop
things that are better/faster/cheaper. Just an acknowledgement that
sometimes it is really tough.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Tracy Crook
> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 9:51 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine monitoring
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: kempthornes <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
>
> At 10:56 AM 3/19/2004, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen <finn.lassen@verizon.net>
> >
> >I thought about designing and selling a simple and cheap engine monitor,
> >but the price growns rapidly if you don't want to answer endless
> >questions for free
>
> Finn, the costs you will incur once your monitor is in production
> will not
> be the big issue. It is the development cost that makes new
> stuff expensive.
> I once was part of a team of software engineers, all at more than $60K in
> the '80s. We blew away a whole day on the logging in process and
> just how
> it should work because that really concerned the lead engineer! I
> estimated that the company spent over a million before they got a single
> line of code but the fact is, it was money well spent!
>
> Developing a simple little engine monitor ought to be much cheaper since
> everything for it already exists.
>
>
> K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
>
> Ok, lets say you are incredibly successful and capture 33% of the
> RV market over the past 20 years. That's about 1170 units. That
> million bucks blown before the first line of code is written
> represents $854.70 per unit and you haven't paid for any
> production costs yet. It also assumes you didn't starve to death
> during those 20 years.
> Yeah, I know, you could do it for well under a mil, but it ain't
> as easy as it sounds.
> Tracy Crook
> (Lots of time & effort invested, way less than 1% engine monitor
> market penetration, but having gobs of fun)
>
>
Message 32
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| Subject: | Edge Roller Wave |
TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL
--> RV-List message posted by: Warren W Hurd <warren@ahyup.com>
I posted a photo at http://www.ahyup.com/Wrinkle/ of a wave I made in
the wing skin edge. The wheels of the Avery edge roller were not
perpendicular to the edge of the skin, thus stretching the metal and
making a wave. Are these kits so good that I could order a new skin and
drill out the holes without match drilling? I want to replace the
wrinkled skin.
Warren
http:ahyup.com
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