Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:30 AM - Scroth Seat Belts (DFaile@aol.com)
2. 04:26 AM - Re: Scroth Seat Belts (Charles Rowbotham)
3. 05:00 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (LarryRobertHelming)
4. 05:01 AM - Re: Scroth Seat Belts (RVEIGHTA@aol.com)
5. 05:18 AM - Re: RV-7 Props (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
6. 05:42 AM - Re: Goodyear Flight Custom III Tires (Lenleg@aol.com)
7. 05:59 AM - Canopy cutting. ()
8. 06:13 AM - Nasty Pants (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
9. 06:23 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Sears)
10. 06:59 AM - Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix (Dave Bristol)
11. 07:22 AM - engine woes... (Bill VonDane)
12. 07:27 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (DAVID REEL)
13. 07:49 AM - Re: engine woes... (Sam Buchanan)
14. 08:19 AM - Re: engine woes... (David Carter)
15. 08:19 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Tedd McHenry)
16. 08:27 AM - Re: Nasty Pants (ray sheffield)
17. 08:31 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
18. 08:43 AM - Re: Nasty Pants (linn walters)
19. 08:48 AM - Re: engine woes... (Bruce Gray)
20. 08:49 AM - Dielectric grease (Randy Lervold)
21. 08:49 AM - Re: Nasty Pants (Bruce Gray)
22. 09:00 AM - Re: engine woes... (linn walters)
23. 09:18 AM - Re: engine woes... (Tedd McHenry)
24. 09:18 AM - Re: Dielectric grease (Trampas)
25. 09:28 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Rob Prior)
26. 09:51 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Mickey Coggins)
27. 10:07 AM - Re: Nasty Pants (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
28. 10:10 AM - BFR and Training in an Experimental (N223RV@aol.com)
29. 10:46 AM - Re: Dielectric grease (John D. Heath)
30. 11:07 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Gordon Robertson)
31. 11:11 AM - dongle (Wheeler North)
32. 11:32 AM - PC680 What If (Gary Zilik)
33. 11:35 AM - PC680 battery box (Gary Zilik)
34. 12:01 PM - Re: PC680 What If (Scott Bilinski)
35. 12:49 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Sears)
36. 01:20 PM - Navaid servo installation under seat (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
37. 01:33 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Coers, John)
38. 01:38 PM - K&N Filter Deal (Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov)
39. 01:39 PM - Subaru Engines... (Bill VonDane)
40. 01:46 PM - Master relay (Donald Mei)
41. 02:03 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Tedd McHenry)
42. 02:22 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Tommy Norman)
43. 02:24 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Rob Prior)
44. 02:25 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Tedd McHenry)
45. 02:29 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
46. 02:32 PM - Re: [VAF Mailing List] Subaru Engines... (Chris Krieg)
47. 02:35 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Ross Schlotthauer)
48. 02:56 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (John)
49. 03:19 PM - Re: PC680 battery box (Darwin N. Barrie)
50. 03:24 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Darwin N. Barrie)
51. 03:36 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Tedd McHenry)
52. 03:48 PM - Attachments to all RV-List messages (Ross Mickey)
53. 04:02 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Jim Sears)
54. 04:04 PM - Re: PC680 battery box (Terry Watson)
55. 04:10 PM - Re: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Sears)
56. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? ()
57. 04:33 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Sam Buchanan)
58. 04:50 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Mike Robertson)
59. 05:10 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Steve & Denise)
60. 05:12 PM - Re: PC680 battery box (Charlie & Tupper England)
61. 05:25 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG))
62. 05:45 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Paul Parashak)
63. 05:50 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Charlie & Tupper England)
64. 05:52 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Cy Galley)
65. 05:52 PM - Re: Navaid servo installation under seat (HCRV6@aol.com)
66. 06:08 PM - Re: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (John Coers)
67. 06:12 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Cy Galley)
68. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (John Coers)
69. 06:33 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
70. 06:35 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
71. 06:52 PM - Re: engine woes... (Charles Becker)
72. 07:09 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Dave Bristol)
73. 07:18 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Sam Buchanan)
74. 07:27 PM - Re: engine woes... (Dave Bristol)
75. 07:40 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes (Larry G RV-7 N697RV)
76. 07:47 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Tedd McHenry)
77. 07:47 PM - Re: dongle (Dave Bristol)
78. 08:02 PM - Re: engine woes... (Bruce Gray)
79. 08:07 PM - Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws? (Greg Grigson)
80. 08:11 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Sam Buchanan)
81. 08:56 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hal / Carol Kempthorne)
82. 09:05 PM - Re: engine woes... (linn walters)
83. 09:15 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Tedd McHenry)
84. 09:20 PM - Re: Subaru Engines... (Bill VonDane)
85. 09:24 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Richard Scott)
86. 09:31 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Dean)
87. 09:39 PM - Re: PC680 battery box (James E. Clark)
88. 09:42 PM - Land down under (Keith T Uhls)
89. 09:43 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Brian Denk)
90. 10:18 PM - new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Dan Checkoway)
91. 10:25 PM - Re: engine woes... (Tracy Crook)
92. 10:48 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Brett Ray)
93. 10:50 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Tedd McHenry)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Scroth Seat Belts |
--> RV-List message posted by: DFaile@aol.com
Looking for the source of Schroth seat belts for RV's. Does anybody have a
contact name and address?
david faile
rv6
fairfield ct
Message 2
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| Subject: | Scroth Seat Belts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham@hotmail.com>
David,
We got our's from Team Rocket. They are Hooker belts with the Schroth buckle
- excellent quality and considerably less expensive. You can also call
Hooker direct. In either case, they have a great selection of belt and pad
colors.
Good Building,
Chuck & Dave Rowbotham
RV-8A (see you at S-N-F)
>From: DFaile@aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Scroth Seat Belts
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 06:28:58 EST
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: DFaile@aol.com
>
>Looking for the source of Schroth seat belts for RV's. Does anybody have a
>contact name and address?
>
>david faile
>rv6
>fairfield ct
>
>
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
After three years of building my slow build here is my somewhat experienced
opinion: Please, above all else Tommy, consider the advice of the plane's
designer. If Vans instructs it should be drilled and deburred with his
design and materials, then that should tell you something. If Vans says it
is optional, then you can have some confidence in taking whichever route you
choose. My concern is the plane's design and the experience behind the
design and how it will stand up not only on first flight -- but 10, or 20
years from now if micro metal tears begin to corrode and rivet strength is
reduced.
However, it is your plane and Vans did not make you sign a contract stating
we will build it per his instructions. If you deviate from the designer's
building plan, in all honesty -- you should stand ready to have those fully
displayed to anyone who rides with you or to whom you entertain selling the
plane to at a later time and your insurance company. I think those things
right there make the drilling and deburring worth your time, not counting
the added risk on the lives of you and your co-pilot. JMHO.
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp
TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak
JeffRose Flightline Interiors
Firewall Forward, Wiring
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net>
Subject: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net>
>
> Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and
> deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless
> you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some
> opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I
> know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the
> long route. All opinions appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Scroth Seat Belts |
--> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com
David, check Aircraft Spruce, page 178.
Walt Shipley
Message 5
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--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 3/30/04 4:30:15 PM Central Standard Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
> Are you using the VSI to figure out your rate of climb, or are you
> using the altimeter and stop watch?
>
> VSIs may have large errors, so it is much more accurate to use the
> altimeter and stop watch.
>
> What rpm are you getting at Vy?
All data based on testing using Mike Stewarts test cards. Climbs started at
1500', speed established, timed for 1 minute after passing through 2000'.
Also do not have leg fairings or pants installed yet. I am using dual plenums,
which may be affecting speeds, but no way to confirm.
120 mph = 900'
110 mph = 1100'
100 mph = 1150'
90 mph = 1200'
RPM on all climbs were in the neighborhood of 2200-2250, IIRC (did not
record, too busy trying to maintian airspeed- I know, Bombardier wouldn't ask me
back!)
I made a few informal tests a few weeks later which seemed to confim the
above numbers. Seems fairly in line with other's results considering I'm seeing
175+ mph @ 2500' and 2700+ rpm. (a/s checked multiple times with gps runs per
M.S. test cards and is in close agreement with a/s indicated by
PCFlightSystems airdata interface)
Does this sound about right?
Mark - 150 hp -6A, Craig Catto 66x66 3-blade
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Goodyear Flight Custom III Tires |
--> RV-List message posted by: Lenleg@aol.com
In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:26:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
N223RV@aol.com writes:
> Everyone at my airport swears they get 3X the tire wear with the Goodyear
> Flight Custom III tires. Has anyone tried these, and do they fit in the
> wheel
> pants? I've heard horror stories of people trying new tires and having them
>
> wear holes in the wheel pants. Thanks
>
> -Mike Kraus
> N223RV RV-4 Flying
> N213RV RV-10 Empennage
>
Mike:
I have these ... my Aero Trainers from Vans only lasted less than 100 hrs
... I have the Flight Custom IIIs with over 125 hrs on them and absolutely no
sign of wear. I used the no leak tubes from Michelin and hardly ever have to
put air in the tires.
Love them.
Len Leggette, RV-8A
Greensboro, NC N910LL
222 hrs
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: <EricHe@FlexSolPackaging.com>
What a flashback, Jim Cone posting helpfull advice on the RV list. Well that takes
me back about a decade right Jim? You still flying that amphib?
All you prepunch weiners have no idea the extent this man went to in order to help
his fellow tortured RVer. Back in the dark dark days before Van embraced electricity.
Glad to have you back Jim.
Eric Henson
Do Not Archive
>>>I found a really good way to cut the canopy that is much easier than using the
cutting disk that Van's provides. It allows cutting with one pass at a fairly
high speed with little binding of the cutter. It cuts the Plexiglas like a hot
knife through butter. I used a die grinder with a 1/8 inch collet and mounted
one of the little one inch fiber cutting disks made for the Dremmel tool.
Harbor Freight sells a very small die grinder kit that has several accessories
including a 1/8 inch collet for $14.99. The item number is 47050-OVGA and is
available online at Harborfreight.com.
Jim Cone
3-Peat Offender
Message 8
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--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy 'list-
My wheelpants (Vans) came with a fairly tough coating that is a translucent
blue-green in color (where it's thick enough to see color). I believe this is
the mold release stuff? Question is, what is the best way to get this off and
if I miss any, will the paint fall off? I've gone through a lot of sandpaper
and time already, and not even halfway done! Gotta be a better way...
Thanks!
Mark - do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
Again, I can't tell anyone on the list that they should dimple without match
drilling. That must be left up to the individual builder. However, I do
get a kick out of the notes that discuss how important it is to follow Van's
instructions to the letter because there is a reason for it. If everyone
had an opportunity to look at some of the RVs flying out there real close,
they would quickly discover that this is really good in theory; but, it
isn't followed very well. I believe the Harmon Rocket that eventually led
to the RV-8, as I see it, is a good example of how we drift from the norm.
Putting gascolators at wing roots, using fuel filters, etc. are others we
hear about often on this list. We all deviate a little somewhere to make us
feel better about our projects. Riveting is one of those. How many times
have you changed to a different rivet size because the ones called out in
the plans just didn't work? I know I have because I knew there was no way
the called out rivet would work. Does that mean I should lose sleep over
it; or, should I be content that I've done something that might well have
been better than had I done just what the plans called for?
Anyway, I said I'd tested and looked closely at examples of each kind of
dimple, matched drilled and not matched drilled. I could not see the
difference.
Granted, I was not using a high powered microscope to look at them; but, I
did look pretty closely with a magnifying glass. Both types of dimpling
deformed the hole edges, even though I made sure I was not forcing the
dimpler into the holes. I actually got a better rivet fit by not match
drilling. It was a little loose; but, it wasn't excessive.
Rather than getting into the theory side of it, I'd like to know of someone
who has not match drilled, is doing aerobatics that puts real stresses on
the airframe, and has had rivets popping off or cracks appearing that can be
attributed to the lack of match drilling. Don't just discuss the theory.
Show me that it's actually happening. I'm the practical builder, not the
theorist. If you can show me, I'll listen. I'm willing to learn from the
experiences of others.
I'm not trying to be hard headed. I'm also not trying to get out of work
because I really enjoy building RVs. My working on my third project should
tell you that. I just find it hard to believe that I can drill a hole
better than the machine can punch it. I should know. While building
Scooter, I drilled a lot of holes. It's like the deburring discussion. One
can find discussions that say one must debur every hole and can read books
that say otherwise! I've even read on this list about companies that don't
do it, at all! Now, that gave me heart burn; but, they may very well be
right. In this world of excessive litigation, they stand to lose a lot more
than me and are not deburring, anyway.
Again, I'm not telling anyone it's OK to not match drill. At the same time,
I'm going to look at it with an open mind and not worry about 10-20 years
down the road. I can assure you that other things will crop up for me to
worry about more so than those holes. Engine failures, electrical problems,
etc. come to mind as more recurrent issues for some of us than rivets coming
out and cracks forming. Now, canopy cracks are a different problem and do
make me worry a bunch. :-(
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, need to finish tail, ordered wings)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Dropped bucking bar--Need ding fix |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
I don't think I'd use 80 grit on a stressed skin. I agree that it should
work fine to enhance adhesion but I'd be concerned about stress risers
and future cracks.
Dave
RV6 So Cal EAA Technical Counselor
Jim and Bev Cone wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim and Bev Cone" <jimnbev@olypen.com>
>
>Use 80 grit sandpaper on the aluminum and you will have no problems with adhesion.
>
>Jim Cone
>3-Peat Offender
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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vansairforce <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't
have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
paperweight for a while...
I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting
old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
I broke two 3/32" dimple dies by punching them into holes that were too tight.
They are hardened and the male tip fractures & breaks off. Cleveland tools replaced
them for me free of charge, but I now drill all holes per the plan instructions.
Just another tidbit to add to the sage advice already dispensed on
this topic.
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Bill VonDane wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>
> So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
> found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't
> have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
> paperweight for a while...
>
> I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting
> old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
>
> http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
>
> -Bill VonDane
Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found
when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam
that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those
lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is
probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it
was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it.
You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank
loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install
a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back
together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many
more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize
service and resale, the overhaul might be in order.
Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the
case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the
cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you
have access to somebody with Lycoming experience. Plus, the satisfaction
of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence
in your plane.
Here is the link to my engine rebuild:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm
Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine!
Sam Buchanan
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
I had a '73 Mercedes 450SE gasoline burning V-8. Had some sensor problems
that caused it not to run too well in winter and consequently, car didn't
get driven much. Retired from AF, moved to warmer climate and had time to
do some checking when it seemed never to run right anymore - found lots of
flat spots on pax side cam lobes and replaced cam shaft. Used crocus cloth
and polished pilot side cam lobes - then drilled larger hole into cam
support block to match size of hole in V-8 block, to increase oil flow to
the side that failed prematurely. On a VW engine, had spalling of cam
bearing shells - found that only 1 side of crankcase had the little oil slot
under the hole in bearing shell - other side never got oil!! So, used
Dremel and cut the little v-groove into "plain" side of case so oil traveled
around to both shells and came out hole in middle of both instead of just 1.
But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that
illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine
compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block
like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can
with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air
compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine
shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you
open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills
the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes...
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> Bill VonDane wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
> >
> > So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
> > found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I
don't
> > have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
> > paperweight for a while...
> >
> > I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be
getting
> > old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
> >
> > http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
> >
> > -Bill VonDane
>
>
> Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found
> when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam
> that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those
> lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is
> probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it
> was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it.
>
> You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank
> loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install
> a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back
> together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many
> more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize
> service and resale, the overhaul might be in order.
>
> Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the
> case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the
> cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you
> have access to somebody with Lycoming experience. Plus, the satisfaction
> of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence
> in your plane.
>
> Here is the link to my engine rebuild:
>
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm
>
> Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine!
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
I was advised by an engineer at Van's that match drilling is required to remove
the work-hardened area around the punched holes, and that their tests indicated
failure to do so would significantly reduce the fatigue life of the airframe.
That opinion is from an experienced engineer with inside knowledge, and is
consistent with my understanding of metallurgy, as a mechanical engineer, so I
give it a lot of weight. I will always match drill until I hear otherwise from
Van's, and I would not buy a used RV if I knew the builder had not.
Some have argued that we all deviate from Van's plans, and that this is just
one more example of something that's up to the builder. I agree with the first
part, but not the second. All the riveting on my RV will be either in
accordance with Van's instructions, AC-43.13, or MIL-R-47196A, to the best of
my ability. The freedom to decide in no way justifies deciding badly, or from
ignorance.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: "ray sheffield" <rv8a@csranet.com>
Mark,
On my rv8a I used water and it came right off.
ray
-------Original Message-------
From: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: RV-List: Nasty Pants
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy 'list-
My wheelpants (Vans) came with a fairly tough coating that is a translucent
blue-green in color (where it's thick enough to see color). I believe this
is
the mold release stuff? Question is, what is the best way to get this off
and
if I miss any, will the paint fall off? I've gone through a lot of
sandpaper
and time already, and not even halfway done! Gotta be a better way...
Thanks!
Mark - do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Well Said Jim,
Excellent post.
Archiving it.
After 1100 hours in 2 years in a 6A, I can tell you there are a ton of
things I am doing differently on my current 8 project, off plans,
against Van's recommendations, and better.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Sears
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
Again, I can't tell anyone on the list that they should dimple without
match
drilling. That must be left up to the individual builder. However, I
do
get a kick out of the notes that discuss how important it is to follow
Van's
instructions to the letter because there is a reason for it. If
everyone
had an opportunity to look at some of the RVs flying out there real
close,
they would quickly discover that this is really good in theory; but, it
isn't followed very well. I believe the Harmon Rocket that eventually
led
to the RV-8, as I see it, is a good example of how we drift from the
norm.
Putting gascolators at wing roots, using fuel filters, etc. are others
we
hear about often on this list. We all deviate a little somewhere to
make us
feel better about our projects. Riveting is one of those. How many
times
have you changed to a different rivet size because the ones called out
in
the plans just didn't work? I know I have because I knew there was no
way
the called out rivet would work. Does that mean I should lose sleep
over
it; or, should I be content that I've done something that might well
have
been better than had I done just what the plans called for?
Anyway, I said I'd tested and looked closely at examples of each kind of
dimple, matched drilled and not matched drilled. I could not see the
difference.
Granted, I was not using a high powered microscope to look at them; but,
I
did look pretty closely with a magnifying glass. Both types of dimpling
deformed the hole edges, even though I made sure I was not forcing the
dimpler into the holes. I actually got a better rivet fit by not match
drilling. It was a little loose; but, it wasn't excessive.
Rather than getting into the theory side of it, I'd like to know of
someone
who has not match drilled, is doing aerobatics that puts real stresses
on
the airframe, and has had rivets popping off or cracks appearing that
can be
attributed to the lack of match drilling. Don't just discuss the
theory.
Show me that it's actually happening. I'm the practical builder, not
the
theorist. If you can show me, I'll listen. I'm willing to learn from
the
experiences of others.
I'm not trying to be hard headed. I'm also not trying to get out of
work
because I really enjoy building RVs. My working on my third project
should
tell you that. I just find it hard to believe that I can drill a hole
better than the machine can punch it. I should know. While building
Scooter, I drilled a lot of holes. It's like the deburring discussion.
One
can find discussions that say one must debur every hole and can read
books
that say otherwise! I've even read on this list about companies that
don't
do it, at all! Now, that gave me heart burn; but, they may very well
be
right. In this world of excessive litigation, they stand to lose a lot
more
than me and are not deburring, anyway.
Again, I'm not telling anyone it's OK to not match drill. At the same
time,
I'm going to look at it with an open mind and not worry about 10-20
years
down the road. I can assure you that other things will crop up for me
to
worry about more so than those holes. Engine failures, electrical
problems,
etc. come to mind as more recurrent issues for some of us than rivets
coming
out and cracks forming. Now, canopy cracks are a different problem and
do
make me worry a bunch. :-(
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, need to finish tail, ordered wings)
EAA Tech Counselor
==
==
==
==
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
If it's really mold release ..... most of them are water soluble!
Linn
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy 'list-
>
>My wheelpants (Vans) came with a fairly tough coating that is a translucent
>blue-green in color (where it's thick enough to see color). I believe this is
>the mold release stuff? Question is, what is the best way to get this off and
>if I miss any, will the paint fall off? I've gone through a lot of sandpaper
>and time already, and not even halfway done! Gotta be a better way...
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mark - do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Lycoming engines are known for eating camshafts. The only fix that I'm
aware of is the Nye Nozzle case mod, (spray nozzles are installed to
spray oil on the cam), and a preoiler. Engine start is your worst time
for cam oiling.
http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.html
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Message 20
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| Subject: | Dielectric grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of
it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it
provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for
years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the
archives.
Thanks to those more knowledeable than me.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, RV-3B
Message 21
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Hot soapy water will take it off.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nasty Pants
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
If it's really mold release ..... most of them are water soluble!
Linn
Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
>Howdy 'list-
>
>My wheelpants (Vans) came with a fairly tough coating that is a
translucent
>blue-green in color (where it's thick enough to see color). I believe
this is
>the mold release stuff? Question is, what is the best way to get this
off and
>if I miss any, will the paint fall off? I've gone through a lot of
sandpaper
>and time already, and not even halfway done! Gotta be a better way...
>
>Thanks!
>
>Mark - do not archive
>
>
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
comments below!
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>Bill VonDane wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>>
>>So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
>>found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't
>>have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
>>paperweight for a while...
>>
>>I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting
>>old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
>>
>>http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
>>
>>-Bill VonDane
>>
>>
>
>
>Bill, I feel for you since you have described the same thing I found
>when the cylinders were pulled off my E2D. It seems the lobe on the cam
>that shares two lifters is usually the first to go and spalling of those
>lifters with the resulting destruction of the lobe is not unusual. It is
>probably due to corrosion which probably occurred in my engine when it
>was seeing little use for a few years before I bought it.
>
Almost a sure thing. Long periods of idleness almost guarantee cam
follower and lifter failure. It may have been salvageable if two
cylinders had been removed and the followers looked at before running
for an extended time. The cam and the cam follower can usually be
reground before major damage occurs. Sometimes the cam follower is just
too far gone.
>You have a couple of choices; you can go ahead and take out the bank
>loan and do a complete overhaul or you can just split the cases, install
>a new cam, have the lifters reground/replaced, and put everything back
>together. If the crank journals check within specs you should see many
>more hours of service from just the reassembly. If you want to maximize
>service and resale, the overhaul might be in order.
>
If you're going to split the case anyway, it's false economy not to go
for a major overhaul. Been there done that, and the second time around
(in too short a time) it was a full major. I'm happier, and the engine
is happier.
>Regardless, I know the sinking feeling you get when you look into the
>case and see the wasted lifters and cam. Fortunately, splitting the
>cases is not an insurmountable or even difficult job especially if you
>have access to somebody with Lycoming experience.
>
Actually, with just a little 'engine' knowledge, the overhaul manual and
the parts manual (these cover more than one 'model' but are specific so
get the one for your engine). Depending on the age of the engine (in
years, not necessarily hours) since major if there was one, I'd send the
case off to Divco and have it overhauled and the mods (if any)
installed. That was around $600 for my O-360, and money well spent.
The hardest part is splitting the case .... and you can do it without
the fixture ..... but the rest of the tools you most likely have in your
tool box.
> Plus, the satisfaction
>of knowing *exactly* what is in your engine will add to your confidence
>in your plane.
>
And your knowledge. Find an A&P that will work with you .... but get
one with some engine rebuilding experience. Buy him a case of beer ...
After you're done working!
>Here is the link to my engine rebuild:
>
>http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/overhaul.htm
>
Wish I had taken pics. I didn't give it much thought!
Linn
>
>Best wishes, and enjoy your rebuilt engine!
>
>Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
But you'll still make it to TBO, unlike those auto engines.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 24
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| Subject: | Dielectric grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Trampas" <tstern@nc.rr.com>
Insulates
Regards,
Trampas Stern
Stern Technologies
4321 Waterwheel Dr
Raleigh NC 27606
919-832-8441 Ext. 12 (voice)
919-832-8441 (fax)
www.sterntech.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Lervold
Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of
it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does it
provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for
years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the
archives.
Thanks to those more knowledeable than me.
Randy Lervold
RV-8, RV-3B
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 15:04 30/03/2004 "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net>
> Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and
> deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless
> you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some
> opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I
> know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the
> long route. All opinions appreciated.
When people ask me for advice on buying a used RV, one of the things I tell
them is to go to the Matronics search engine, and punch in the owner's name
and/or the aircraft's registration. You'll learn all about the problems
the builder had during construction, and you may even learn things he
wouldn't want you to know (like skipping fundamental steps in construction
that the kit manufacturer considers mandatory).
As a mechanical engineer, I know that punching the holes will work harden
the material around the edge of the hole. You can't see it with a
magnifying glass, and i'd be surprised if you could see it with a
microscope. Drilling out the hole just a small amount will remove most, if
not all, of that work hardening. If that work hardened area is not
removed, you can be sure that the fatigue life of the aircraft will suffer
as a result.
Whether it means you knocked 1000 hours or 10 hours off the life of the
aircraft, nobody could tell unless they knew exactly what conditions the
airplane has been, and will be, subject to during it's service life. But
why would you knowingly shorten the life of your aircraft? It's really a
small step, and one that goes quite quickly.
Personally, I want my aircraft to have the highest resale value possible in
the unlikely event that I want to sell it at some point. Cutting corners
in construction, and admitting it on a public, archived, mailing list,
isn't the way to ensure that high resale value.
-Rob
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>... can find discussions that say one must debur every hole and can read books
>that say otherwise! ...
People that don't deburr must have some really good drill
bits. When I drill a hole, the far side almost always
has lots of ragged edges that if not removed, would
really cause a lot of trouble. The near side of the
hole is usually quite smooth.
I personally don't find deburring any trouble, except
in those places that are hard to reach. Of course, they
are always on the far side, and really require it.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
do not archive
Message 27
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--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 10:28:12 AM Central Standard Time,
rv8a@csranet.com writes:
> On my rv8a I used water and it came right off.
Water? After all the ridiculously evil chemicals employed in the
construction of my RV, who'da thunk we could use the infamous "dihydrous monoxide"?!
Anybody got an MSDS on this stuff? 8-)
Thanks Linn, Ray and Bruce!
do not archive
Message 28
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| Subject: | BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com
I have heard people talk about training for their PPL, Instrument ticket, etc in
an experimental. I assume you are allowed to get a BFR also in an experimental.
Is this true, and if so where in the regulations does it say this is possible.
My flight instructor is asking and I can't seem to find any info either
way in the FAR's. Thanks
-Mike Kraus
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Dielectric grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <altoq@direcway.com>
Not so much insulate as isolate from oxygen and other oxidizers. In the case
of ignition and other high voltage circuits it seals the insulators
together, not allowing moisture or foreign elements to penetrate the
insulation seal.
John D
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>
> Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of
> it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does
it
> provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for
> years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the
> archives.
>
> Thanks to those more knowledeable than me.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, RV-3B
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon Robertson" <grobertson@verizon.net>
I found it useful to get a power screwdriver (eg Black and Decker) and put
the deburrer tool in the chuck. This is then dedicated to that job
forever, and eliminated the carpal tunnel syndrome possibility of all those
10,000 deburrs
Gordon Robertson
RV8 ready for engine
Message 31
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Well,
I don't know about other states but in The People's Republic of Kalifornia
its a violation of statute to pay someone for the opportunity to play with
their dongle. Not sure what the statute says about pay-for-play with out of
state dongle's though.
;{)
do not archive
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@excelgeo.com>
Does anyone know, or have any idea, what might happen if a direct short
was applied across the terminals of the Odyssey PC680 battery. Would the
battery blow up?
Just Curious,
Gary
Message 33
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| Subject: | PC680 battery box |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@excelgeo.com>
Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed
aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA
approved too!
http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm
Gary
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: PC680 What If |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
There is a vent hole on the top of the battery that will vent if need be.
It is covered with the product label and states do not cover this
area....about .5 dia
At 12:18 PM 3/31/04 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@excelgeo.com>
>
>Does anyone know, or have any idea, what might happen if a direct short
>was applied across the terminals of the Odyssey PC680 battery. Would the
>battery blow up?
>
>Just Curious,
>
>Gary
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
>I was advised by an engineer at Van's that match drilling is required to
remove
>the work-hardened area around the punched holes, and that their tests
>indicated failure to do so would significantly reduce the fatigue life of
the
>airframe. That opinion is from an experienced engineer with inside
knowledge, >and is consistent with my understanding of metallurgy, as a
mechanical >engineer, so I give it a lot of weight. I will always match
drill until I hear
>otherwise from Van's, and I would not buy a used RV if I knew the builder
>had not.
Tedd, I'm betting the person selling that airplane to you isn't going to
tell you whether he match drilled it, or not. He's going to be showing you
the virtues of his airplane. Of course, you'd also be one in a hundred that
might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, I'd be guilty of
not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the engine installation,
the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. I'm betting most of the
rest of us would, as well.
I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is no
mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match drilling.
All it says is that the parts are better aligned with its use. That is, the
parts are match drilled. Another plus is that it allows faster build time.
Nothing is mentioned, that I could spot, about how the holes must be match
drilled to make them last longer. Of course, I may be missing something.
One would think it would be mentioned in the book at that point to make
sure we used good practices. If it was super critical, I'm betting it would
be in the manual. Remember that we on this list only represent a fraction
of the builders out there. Of course, I may have just missed it with my
glance at the first chapters, including section 6 where it talks about it
before one starts building the empennage.
> Some have argued that we all deviate from Van's plans, and that this is
just
> one more example of something that's up to the builder. I agree with the
first
> part, but not the second. All the riveting on my RV will be either in
> accordance with Van's instructions, AC-43.13, or MIL-R-47196A, to the
> best of my ability. The freedom to decide in no way justifies deciding
badly, > or from ignorance.
Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However, there is
no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's instructions
and my copy of AC 43.13. Please point either out to me, if you would. I'd
certainly appreciate it. Remember, I said I'm trying to learn. I'm just an
average builder out in the boondocks. I'm a retired programmer, not an
engineer. I don't have a copy of MIL-R-47196A.
>When people ask me for advice on buying a used RV, one of the things I tell
>them is to go to the Matronics search engine, and punch in the owner's name
>and/or the aircraft's registration. You'll learn all about the problems
>the builder had during construction, and you may even learn things he
>wouldn't want you to know (like skipping fundamental steps in construction
>that the kit manufacturer considers mandatory).
Now, that's a dandy idea, Bob! I'll have to remember to do that! I
remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the tail.
It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a structural
item.
Much deviation is done on our craft. Some of what I read about, and have
seen, scares the dickens out of me. I guess the biggest deviation I did in
mine was the fuel system. I decided that running the fuel line up the side
of the fuselage to the firewall didn't appeal to me. I ran mine up the
center along the angle stock. Guess what. I must have been right. The
newer RVs are done that way, as well. :-) Of course, I don't have a
gascolator, either. My Cheetah didn't; so, my RV doesn't. Good move on my
part. :-)
>As a mechanical engineer, I know that punching the holes will work harden
>the material around the edge of the hole. You can't see it with a
magnifying >glass, and i'd be surprised if you could see it with a
microscope.
Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was
made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened metal
would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way showed no
worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
>Drilling out the hole just a small amount will remove most, if not all, of
that >work hardening. If that work hardened area is not removed, you can be
sure >that the fatigue life of the aircraft will suffer as a result.
So, why isn't it mentioned in the manual if it's such a big issue?
Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the boondocks
who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are perfectly aligned,
will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without forcing the dimpler into
the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's that important?
>Whether it means you knocked 1000 hours or 10 hours off the life of the
>aircraft, nobody could tell unless they knew exactly what conditions the
>airplane has been, and will be, subject to during it's service life. But
why >would you knowingly shorten the life of your aircraft? It's really a
small step, >and one that goes quite quickly.
I'm not disputing that. I just think that my drilling may not be as good as
the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem later.
Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know what making
holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the need for jigs.
Yeah, some of you
guys don't use those, either. I do.
As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A quick
look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) I'm betting that most of
our RVs will never see 10K hours. OTOH, maybe they will. They're stronger
than the average Piper and Cessna. At the rate I fly mine, it'll be many
years before I see that. By then, I may have another one. :-) I'm sure
many of us can relate to that. I also won't worry about whether I've sold
someone a bad deal. If I even think I might be doing that, I wouldn't sell
it. I guess the factory's fleet should give us an idea. They'll probably
put on hours much faster than we do.
>Personally, I want my aircraft to have the highest resale value possible in
>the unlikely event that I want to sell it at some point. Cutting corners
in >construction, and admitting it on a public, archived, mailing list,
isn't the way to >ensure that high resale value.
Rob, I'm sure most of the RVs we see out there will be sold just fine
without regard to what we say here. However, what does concern me is the
fact that a lot of RVs are being sold out there that I wouldn't ride in.
The riveting is really bad, the engine installations are not that good,
wiring is all over the place, wrong size fasteners, etc. I saw one -6A that
had rivets in the main spars that were barely bucked. Well, let's just say
the rivets were tapped a little. This airplane had been flown and had eight
hours on it! Whoa!!!! Another example I saw just recently was a tail kit
for a -8. The builder was getting ready to sell it because he wanted to
build a -10. I saw 3/32 rivets barely tapped. The 1/8 rivets were a mix of
barely tapped, beaten so hard that little of the shop head was left, smiley
faces so deep that they cut almost though the head. None appeared to have
been replaced. Now, this guy was trying to sell this kit at a premium
price. I quickly told him the errors of his ways and offered assistance at
learning riveting skills. For my project, I found a very nicely done tail
that was much better priced. It can go both ways.
It looks as if we agree that we disagree. I'd like to see something in the
manual that tells me that work hardened holes are a major need for the
drilling. All I've seen so far is that I need to do it to make the holes
align better. Now, that I can understand and may do for that purpose. If
it's a problem, an update to the manuals we hold should be issued, like a
service bulletin. Since my copy of the manual is fairly new, I'd think it
would be in there. I may ask one of my flying buddies if his -10 manual
said anything about that.
> I found it useful to get a power screwdriver (eg Black and Decker) and put
>he deburrer tool in the chuck. This is then dedicated to that job orever,
and >liminated the carpal tunnel syndrome possibility of all those 10,000
deburrs
Oh, yeah. Before I forget. I mentioned that some don't debur. I do. I
may have mislead some of you. I've found that a rivet will set down on the
hole much better if the hole has been deburred. There are times when I
can't debur; but, those are few. Thanks, Gordon! Good advice.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts. Awaiting wings)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
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| Subject: | Navaid servo installation under seat |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
I found a ton of data in the archives here. But I need pictures.
Pictures!
Does anyone have pictures of a WORKING installation under the seat for
an rv-6?
Please send me directly.
Michael Stewart
Do not archive.
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Coers, John" <John.Coers@fkilogistex.com>
I think I'm going to stop match drilling too. I think my choice of PRIMER
will keep the skins from cracking. Not that my plane will have much stress
on it anyway, since it's a tricycle gear with a slider canopy. I mean, if I
were to build a taildragger with a tip up canopy and some inferior PRIMER
(non zinc chromate) then yes I might want the strength that match drilling
provides.
Have a nice day :-)
Message 38
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(Receipt Notification Requested)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov" <Jim.Truitt@usdoj.gov>
FYI - I just spoke to Cindy at Pierce Manifolds. All of the K&N filters
(E-3450) are sold. She was quite amazed at the power of the RV list.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Subaru Engines... |
vansairforce <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an engine
that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!?
I'm sorry... I'm sure this will piss some people off, but why does this
$hit cost so much!
-Bill
Message 40
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" <don_mei@hotmail.com>
According to 'lectric Bob it takes about an amp of current just to keep the
master relay closed. Thats why he likes to see a simple switch on the
essential bus. Since an amp is more than a SL 40 uses while on and not
transmitting.
I don't know, but 12 watts is certainly enough to get something that small
pretty warm.
Don
"All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create
the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan
http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/home.asp
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Jim:
> Of course, you'd also be one in a hundred that
> might even think to ask the question. :-)
I design punched sheet aluminuam parts for a living, and they are always
punched and then rivited straight after, with no match drilling. But they
aren't airplane parts, and fatigue isn't much of an issue in the products I
design.
If your plans don't say to match drill, I can understand why you might think
it's not necessary. But in my airplane, I will always remove the work-hardened
material around the hole, until I see evidence that it's NOT required. I can't
see the percentage in taking that chance just to save a few hours of building
time. Maybe that explains why you've built three and I'm still working on my
first.
It's possible that the dimpling relieves the residual stress created by the
punching. But I'd want to see some test results before I counted on that.
> I don't have a copy of MIL-R-47196A.
In an earlier post you talked about deviating from rivet sizes called out in
the plans, and wondering if that was okay. MIL-R-47196A will give you the
answers you need. You can get a copy at
http://home.flash.net/~gila/rivet_spec/rivet_a.htm
or
http://www.vansairforce.org/reference/MIL-R-47196A_MI.pdf
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 42
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net>
These lists are great, thanks to all for your opinions.
I was originally leaning towards match drilling and deburring. Now
after hearing everyone's opinions and talking with Vans, I am defiantly
going this route. Matter of fact, I went ahead and match drilled my VS
already. Deburring and dimpling will commence tonight.
I am in no way looking for shortcuts that will compromise the longevity
of the aircraft, or more importantly, safety. This craft is not only
for my pleasure flying, but it is also a means of transportation for my
wife and two small kids. Therefore, I will take the utmost care in
producing the highest quality product that I can.
Vans sited the following reasons for following this process:
* If one piece is punched during warm temperatures and the other during
the cooler temperatures, the holes could be different sizes. Dimpling
will not fully correct this deviation. The rivet will fill the smaller
of the two when squeezed but not necessarily the larger.
* The time it takes for this process is accounted for in the 51% builder
time. The inference I drew from this was that if you did the quick
build, and did not match drill and deburr, you would not be building 51%
of the plane and therefore would not be legal???
* During the hole punching process, there are vertical shear marks left
in the skin and they also detected very minute cracks. Since the holes
are punched smaller than the final drill size, the shear marks and
cracks will be removed during the finish drilling process.
Thanks again,
Tommy
Frisco, TX
-10 40201
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tommy Norman
Subject: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tommy Norman" <tie-norman@comcast.net>
Several builders have suggested that you don't need to finish drill and
deburr holes that came pre-punched from Vans; just dimple and go (unless
you have to match-drill through the hole). I wanted to get some
opinions from the group before I start setting rivets on my -10 VS. I
know this would save a great deal of time but I am leaning towards the
long route. All opinions appreciated.
Thanks,
Tommy
==
==
==
==
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> Of course, you'd also be one in a
> hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally,
> I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the
> engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc.
I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available online
about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become quite
savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the skills
to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions to
ask.
It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the
riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life of
the riveted joint to be significant.
> I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is
> no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match
> drilling.
True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either,
or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make
some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the
instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just us
here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could
understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the
manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second guess
him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering knowledge
to argue the point?
> Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However,
> there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's
> instructions and my copy of AC 43.13.
Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process,
so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the
holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if
you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant.
> I
> remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the
> tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a
> structural item.
You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you didn't
drill out first.
> Much deviation is done on our craft.
And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of
the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel
line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst
thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit
and you'll have to deadstick.
> Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was
> made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened
> metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way
> showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work
hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look
intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a microscope
too.
> Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the
> boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are
> perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without
> forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's
> that important?
Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to
learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering it
and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they
posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when
it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's
unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably
simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone
who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place
for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at
www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call Vans,
and ask them.
> I just think that my drilling may not be as
> good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem
> later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know
> what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the
> need for jigs.
On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are
aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the holes,
shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple,
reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue.
> As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A
> quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-)
Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-)
-Rob
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>
> You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an engine
> that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!?
Bill:
In Canada, where I live, the Subaru 2.5 engine sells for about $8,000 over the
counter. That's about $6,100 U.S., at the current conversion rate. If you buy
an Eggenfellner you get, in addition to the engine, a complete firewall-forward
installation package including the gear reduction drive and engine mount. I
don't know what the re-drive is worth (Jan doesn't price it separately), but
the Powersport unit, which is somewhat similar, sells for US$6,500. The
package also includes an engine mount, radiators, and various other bits and
pieces. (It's sufficiently complete that you can actually run the engine as it
comes from Eggenfellner, before you even bolt it on.) And there is a custom
intake manifold that alters the tuning to make it more suitable for aircraft
use. Each engine is also tested, which is fairly expensive. Then there's the
labour and overhead to put that all together. Finally, there is the cost of
developing the whole package, which Eggenfellner obviously needs to recoup or
the whole exercise is for naught.
Naturally, the price of the engine has nothing to do with any of those things.
It has to do with what the market will bear. At US$22k, the Eggenfellner is
competitive with a discounted Lycoming, or an XP360, but offers near-certain
longer term cost advantages. Clearly, a lot of builders find that attractive.
(Caveat: I have a Lycoming in my workshop.)
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 5:23:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
tie-norman@comcast.net writes:
>
> * If one piece is punched during warm temperatures and the other during
> the cooler temperatures, the holes could be different sizes. Dimpling
> will not fully correct this deviation. The rivet will fill the smaller
> of the two when squeezed but not necessarily the larger.
>
>
Tommy,
You may have misunderstood this point. I think the rivets will fill small
and large holes both. The difference would be along the length of the parts.
Dan
RV-7A (almost done)
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: [VAF Mailing List] Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris Krieg <rv6a@mac.com>
Go to http://www.eggenfellneraircraft.com/ and click on the spinning
"new" link. He explains it there. It is not just the cost of the
engine. You are paying for a lot more than just the engine.
Chris
On Mar 31, 2004, at 2:37 PM, Bill VonDane wrote:
> You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an
> engine
> that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!?
>
> I'm sorry... I'm sure this will piss some people off, but why does
> this
> $hit cost so much!
>
> -Bill
>
>
> Online help on this group at:
> http://help.yahoo.com/help/groups/
>
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <yhoo0104_a_300250a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/vansairforce/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> vansairforce-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Service.
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Schlotthauer" <rv7maker@hotmail.com>
Bill,
They are are so expensive because people are buying them. Rest assured that
you and I are doing our part to bring the price down for others.
-Ross
Do Not Archive
Ross Schlotthauer
Experimental Air
>From: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines...
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:22:52 -0800 (PST)
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
> >
> > You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an engine
> > that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!?
>
>Bill:
>
>In Canada, where I live, the Subaru 2.5 engine sells for about $8,000 over
>the
>counter. That's about $6,100 U.S., at the current conversion rate. If you
>buy
>an Eggenfellner you get, in addition to the engine, a complete
>firewall-forward
>installation package including the gear reduction drive and engine mount.
>I
>don't know what the re-drive is worth (Jan doesn't price it separately),
>but
>the Powersport unit, which is somewhat similar, sells for US$6,500. The
>package also includes an engine mount, radiators, and various other bits
>and
>pieces. (It's sufficiently complete that you can actually run the engine
>as it
>comes from Eggenfellner, before you even bolt it on.) And there is a
>custom
>intake manifold that alters the tuning to make it more suitable for
>aircraft
>use. Each engine is also tested, which is fairly expensive. Then there's
>the
>labour and overhead to put that all together. Finally, there is the cost
>of
>developing the whole package, which Eggenfellner obviously needs to recoup
>or
>the whole exercise is for naught.
>
>Naturally, the price of the engine has nothing to do with any of those
>things.
>It has to do with what the market will bear. At US$22k, the Eggenfellner
>is
>competitive with a discounted Lycoming, or an XP360, but offers
>near-certain
>longer term cost advantages. Clearly, a lot of builders find that
>attractive.
>
>(Caveat: I have a Lycoming in my workshop.)
>
>Tedd McHenry
>Surrey, BC
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
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Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his
Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight
times longer....you get what you pay for.
John at Salida, CO
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: PC680 battery box |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
I called this company and the polished version is $39.95 and the black is
$43.95 both in stock and available.
I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back
on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged
to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments?
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik@excelgeo.com>
Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@excelgeo.com>
>
> Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed
> aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA
> approved too!
>
> http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm
>
> Gary
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
Pretty general statement that needs clarification.
1) What type of Subie? Did he build it or was it one of the known
manufacturers?
2) What was the nature of the problem? Root cause?
I've seen Lycomings go on the first take off but it is generally some
associated event that caused the problem. Let's have all the facts before
slamming Subarus.
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with
his
> Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight
> times longer....you get what you pay for.
>
> John at Salida, CO
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his
> Subaru engine....
John:
What kind of Subaru installation is it: Eggenfellner, Crossflow, home-grown?
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 52
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| Subject: | Attachments to all RV-List messages |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
All of the emails I am getting from the RV-List have attachments on them
with the same title as the email.
Why?
Ross Mickey
RV6A
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the
> riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life
of
> the riveted joint to be significant.
You misunderstand. If you look at very many RVs for sale, you start looking
at the riveting. I'm not talking about whether or not is has micro size
cracks around a dimpled hole. I'm talking about the examples I gave in an
earlier note where they aren't bucked, over bucked, smiley faces all the way
through the manufactured heads, etc. Some of these aircraft should never
have passed their certification inspections!
> > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is
> > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match
> > drilling.
>
> True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either,
> or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make
> some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the
> instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just
us
> here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could
> understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the
> manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask.
Wait a minute! It isn't spelled out in the manual that one drills out the
holes to get rid of the hardening. That's what I said in an earlier note.
The manual says that the holes may align better if the match drilling is
done. That's a bit different than what you've said. I'm saying that if
it's as important as a couple of us are saying in the discussion, it should
be mentioned in the manual for those who aren't on this list. By the way,
many of us aren't on the list because it may not offer what's being sought
after by them. Another thing, I rarely called Van's when I was building
my -6A. I'm sure I'm not alone in this Many of us can plod merrily along
and not call Van's that often. I guess we don't feel we need to have our
hands held as much as some do. Information as valuable as this should be in
the manual. It isn't. That's why I questioned its importance.
>Why second guess him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the
>engineering knowledge to argue the point?
I'm not at the point in my life that I think I know everything. Therefor,
I'm willing to argue a point until someone has convinced me that they're
right and I'm wrong. So far, you've not done that. Granted, I may very
well drill out the holes for my project; but, you've still not convinced me
that I'm doing all that wrong if I don't. Sorry.
> Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process,
> so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the
> holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if
> you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant.
If I find that the holes line up enough that the dimple die slips in, the
holes are aligned and no drilling is necessary. If I read my manual
correctly, the job is done, even if I don't drill. Granted, I understand
your argument; but, again you have to admit that my argument also has merit.
I've already gone through this and have found holes that have met my
criteria. I've also had to match drill some.
> > I remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the
> > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a
> > structural item.
>
> You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you
didn't
> drill out first.
Trying to make my little story fit your argument? Shame on you. Mine will
have about every rivet your project will have. My discussion there was to
say that some builders actually leave out parts, hardware, etc. I've seen
parts not riveted together and should have been. I've seen holes drilled
for bolts in brackets and angle stock that clearly didn't have the right
edge distances. There is stuff flying out there that makes my little rivet
issue a non-issue.
> And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of
> the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel
> line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst
> thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit
> and you'll have to deadstick.
>
Exactly.
> Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to
> learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering
it
> and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they
> posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when
> it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's
> unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably
> simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone
> who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place
> for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at
> www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call
Vans,
> and ask them.
Now, we're getting nasty, huh? Are we showing our hollier than thou
attitude?
Must have stepped on some toes. :-) Actually, some of the worst case
aircraft I've seen were supposedly done by engineers and A&Ps. Say what you
want; but, be careful what you say. I've been around a bit and have seen
some really nice airplanes and some really bad ones. Being an engineer
doesn't necessarily make one a good builder. It may give you a heads up on
theory ; but, it doesn't make you God. I like to think my local IA is
closer to that than any of us. :-)
I would think one would need to be an aeronautical engineer to know when to
deviate from an aircraft design . A mechanical engineer may not. Fair
enough?
Since this discussion is starting to turn nasty, I'll just back off and let
it slide. You've made your point that I may not be so sharp because I live
in the boondocks. In fact, I'm probably not smart enough to build my -7A
just because I'm willing to challenge an issue. Hmmm. I really thought I
had this building thing going OK. My RV-6A has about 300 hours on it. The
RV-9A I helped to build is flying quite well. I really thought I knew how
to build. Others I know seem to think so. Maybe I don't. I guess my
building a new -7A will tell it for me. Maybe not. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 54
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| Subject: | PC680 battery box |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Also think about the location of the contactors and the wires to/from them
when considering mounting the battery. Van's battery box has provision for
installing 2 contactors. With two batteries back to back on the firewall
and with an overvoltage contactor and a cross feed contactor, I have 5
contactors all within inches of each other. It is working out pretty well,
but that's after redoing it a few times.
Your idea still sounds good to me. (It sounds like you are building a
side-by-side RV.)
Terry
RV-8A wiring and stuff
Seattle
I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back
on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged
to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments?
Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> I think I'm going to stop match drilling too. I think my choice of PRIMER
> will keep the skins from cracking. Not that my plane will have much stress
> on it anyway, since it's a tricycle gear with a slider canopy. I mean, if
I
> were to build a taildragger with a tip up canopy and some inferior PRIMER
> (non zinc chromate) then yes I might want the strength that match drilling
> provides.
>
> Have a nice day :-)
Fellas, you have to understand Mike's outburst. He lives further out in the
boonies than I do! He's really in trouble. :-)
Oh, yeah. He's not been too afraid to ride in my -6A, even though I built
it. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
do not archive
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
>
> Now, that's a dandy idea, Bob! I'll have to remember to do that! "I
> remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the tail.
> It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a structural"
> item.
Just curious what part did the builder leave out?
Thanks Kirk 81925
>
> Much deviation is done on our craft. Some of what I read about, and have
> seen, scares the dickens out of me. I guess the biggest deviation I did in
> mine was the fuel system. I decided that running the fuel line up the side
> of the fuselage to the firewall didn't appeal to me. I ran mine up the
> center along the angle stock. Guess what. I must have been right. The
> newer RVs are done that way, as well. :-) Of course, I don't have a
> gascolator, either. My Cheetah didn't; so, my RV doesn't. Good move on my
> part. :-)
>
> >As a mechanical engineer, I know that punching the holes will work harden
> >the material around the edge of the hole. You can't see it with a
> magnifying >glass, and i'd be surprised if you could see it with a
> microscope.
>
> Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was
> made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened metal
> would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way showed no
> worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
>
> >Drilling out the hole just a small amount will remove most, if not all, of
> that >work hardening. If that work hardened area is not removed, you can be
> sure >that the fatigue life of the aircraft will suffer as a result.
>
> So, why isn't it mentioned in the manual if it's such a big issue?
> Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the boondocks
> who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are perfectly aligned,
> will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without forcing the dimpler into
> the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's that important?
>
> >Whether it means you knocked 1000 hours or 10 hours off the life of the
> >aircraft, nobody could tell unless they knew exactly what conditions the
> >airplane has been, and will be, subject to during it's service life. But
> why >would you knowingly shorten the life of your aircraft? It's really a
> small step, >and one that goes quite quickly.
>
> I'm not disputing that. I just think that my drilling may not be as good as
> the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem later.
> Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know what making
> holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the need for jigs.
> Yeah, some of you
> guys don't use those, either. I do.
>
> As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A quick
> look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) I'm betting that most of
> our RVs will never see 10K hours. OTOH, maybe they will. They're stronger
> than the average Piper and Cessna. At the rate I fly mine, it'll be many
> years before I see that. By then, I may have another one. :-) I'm sure
> many of us can relate to that. I also won't worry about whether I've sold
> someone a bad deal. If I even think I might be doing that, I wouldn't sell
> it. I guess the factory's fleet should give us an idea. They'll probably
> put on hours much faster than we do.
>
> >Personally, I want my aircraft to have the highest resale value possible in
> >the unlikely event that I want to sell it at some point. Cutting corners
> in >construction, and admitting it on a public, archived, mailing list,
> isn't the way to >ensure that high resale value.
>
> Rob, I'm sure most of the RVs we see out there will be sold just fine
> without regard to what we say here. However, what does concern me is the
> fact that a lot of RVs are being sold out there that I wouldn't ride in.
> The riveting is really bad, the engine installations are not that good,
> wiring is all over the place, wrong size fasteners, etc. I saw one -6A that
> had rivets in the main spars that were barely bucked. Well, let's just say
> the rivets were tapped a little. This airplane had been flown and had eight
> hours on it! Whoa!!!! Another example I saw just recently was a tail kit
> for a -8. The builder was getting ready to sell it because he wanted to
> build a -10. I saw 3/32 rivets barely tapped. The 1/8 rivets were a mix of
> barely tapped, beaten so hard that little of the shop head was left, smiley
> faces so deep that they cut almost though the head. None appeared to have
> been replaced. Now, this guy was trying to sell this kit at a premium
> price. I quickly told him the errors of his ways and offered assistance at
> learning riveting skills. For my project, I found a very nicely done tail
> that was much better priced. It can go both ways.
>
> It looks as if we agree that we disagree. I'd like to see something in the
> manual that tells me that work hardened holes are a major need for the
> drilling. All I've seen so far is that I need to do it to make the holes
> align better. Now, that I can understand and may do for that purpose. If
> it's a problem, an update to the manuals we hold should be issued, like a
> service bulletin. Since my copy of the manual is fairly new, I'd think it
> would be in there. I may ask one of my flying buddies if his -10 manual
> said anything about that.
>
> > I found it useful to get a power screwdriver (eg Black and Decker) and put
> >he deburrer tool in the chuck. This is then dedicated to that job orever,
> and >liminated the carpal tunnel syndrome possibility of all those 10,000
> deburrs
>
> Oh, yeah. Before I forget. I mentioned that some don't debur. I do. I
> may have mislead some of you. I've found that a rivet will set down on the
> hole much better if the hole has been deburred. There are times when I
> can't debur; but, those are few. Thanks, Gordon! Good advice.
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts. Awaiting wings)
> EAA Tech Counselor
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Jim Sears wrote:
> Since this discussion is starting to turn nasty, I'll just back off and let
> it slide. You've made your point that I may not be so sharp because I live
> in the boondocks. In fact, I'm probably not smart enough to build my -7A
> just because I'm willing to challenge an issue. Hmmm. I really thought I
> had this building thing going OK. My RV-6A has about 300 hours on it. The
> RV-9A I helped to build is flying quite well. I really thought I knew how
> to build. Others I know seem to think so. Maybe I don't. I guess my
> building a new -7A will tell it for me. Maybe not. :-)
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> RV-7A #70317
> EAA Tech Counselor
Ok Jim, since you live way too far out in the boonies to know how to
safely build an airplane, I will be in KY Saturday to fly your plane
back to Alabama for safe keeping. Some of my buddies will be up there in
a truck to pick up the RV-7A you are workin' on.
They last thing we want happening is for some unlucky slob to buy one of
your planes and have the thing turn to dust while he is airborne.
Good grief, I bet you didn't dip each rivet in primer before you stuck
it in the hole either! Bet you didn't even take a Q-tip and primer the
inside of the holes. Maybe we better disassemble your RV-6; I'm not sure
I feel safe flying it!!!!!!
See you Saturday,
Sam Buchanan
Message 58
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| Subject: | BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this is
a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not
say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to
get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is
done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered by
FAR Part 91.
Mike Robertson
Das Fed
>From: N223RV@aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: vansairforce@yahoogroups.com, rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
>Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 13:07:17 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: N223RV@aol.com
>
>I have heard people talk about training for their PPL, Instrument ticket,
>etc in an experimental. I assume you are allowed to get a BFR also in an
>experimental. Is this true, and if so where in the regulations does it say
>this is possible. My flight instructor is asking and I can't seem to find
>any info either way in the FAR's. Thanks
>-Mike Kraus
>
>
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee
Message 59
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|
| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" <sjhdcl@kingston.net>
It clearly not an Eggenfellner engine. A truly poor statement to generalize
Subaru engines. I'm willing to bet its the installation that caused 3
emergency landings,
not the Subaru engine.
Besides why not pay $22 k for an engine a fly rather than pulling all the
cylinders
and finding the internals of the engine warn beyond specs after less than a
year of flying.
You're absolutely right, you get what you pay for.
I have absolutely nothing against Lycoming and I'd love to fly with a new
Lycoming, XP-360, etc.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines...
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
> >
> > My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with
his
> > Subaru engine....
>
> John:
>
> What kind of Subaru installation is it: Eggenfellner, Crossflow,
home-grown?
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: PC680 battery box |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Darwin N. Barrie wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Darwin N. Barrie" <ktlkrn@cox.net>
>
>I called this company and the polished version is $39.95 and the black is
>$43.95 both in stock and available.
>
>I'm doing a dual battery set and kicked around mounting the two back to back
>on the floor near the front. A simple cover could be fabricated and hinged
>to provide easy access. Any thoughts or comments?
>
>Darwin N. Barrie
>Chandler AZ
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Gary Zilik" <zilik@excelgeo.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box
>
Do they weigh less than a few pieces of angle & a nylon strap? :-)
"Simplicate & add lightness." (wish I could give proper credit for that
quote....)
Message 61
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| Subject: | Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst@ucol.ac.nz>
My understanding is that by the far the vast majority of engine failures
of homebuilts are due to one of the ancillary (fuel, ignition, cooling,
etc) systems failing, not the engine itself. If that's true, then on
average you are about as likely to have a failure with a Lyc as with a
Subaru.
Perhaps a more accurate throwaway line would be... you get what you
build.
Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Subaru Engines...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings
> with his
> Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying
> eight times longer....you get what you pay for.
Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online
at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL
(0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information
and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of
Learning.
Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your
future
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Parashak <pavel_gaijin@yahoo.com>
I know for a fact that one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures
is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are
left in are prime areas for crack propagation.
I am a submarine officer in the USN and we do extensive testing on metals to
ensure that metals used (primarily high alloy steels and not aluminum) are
free of detectable preexisting flaws.
I plan on drilling / deburring and dimpling all of the prepunched holes on
my RV-7 (or 8 if I can convince my wife).
Paul Parashak
Preview plans stage.
On 3/31/04 08:19, "Tedd McHenry" <tedd@vansairforce.org> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> I was advised by an engineer at Van's that match drilling is required to
> remove
> the work-hardened area around the punched holes, and that their tests
> indicated
> failure to do so would significantly reduce the fatigue life of the airframe.
> That opinion is from an experienced engineer with inside knowledge, and is
> consistent with my understanding of metallurgy, as a mechanical engineer, so
I
> give it a lot of weight. I will always match drill until I hear otherwise
> from
> Van's, and I would not buy a used RV if I knew the builder had not.
>
> Some have argued that we all deviate from Van's plans, and that this is just
> one more example of something that's up to the builder. I agree with the
> first
> part, but not the second. All the riveting on my RV will be either in
> accordance with Van's instructions, AC-43.13, or MIL-R-47196A, to the best of
> my ability. The freedom to decide in no way justifies deciding badly, or from
> ignorance.
>
> ---
>
> Tedd McHenry
> Surrey, BC
>
>
>
>
>
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Gotta stir this pot just a little more.
First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 & #40 drill bits, &
I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a
deburring tool & use it regularly.
I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer
when they were going to go ahead & punch the holes 'full size' & save us
all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was
enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue
the match drilling thing for now.
I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An
untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap
calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after
drill only, and one after standard #40 drill & debur. Final sizes varied
from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using
recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the
drilled/deburred & dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples.
The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool
chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al.
(learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything
similar after standard drill/debur/dimple?
Charlie
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a
chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round
smooth hole. You don't get smooth nor round with a drill bit.
Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
Editor, EAA Safety Programs
cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com> wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> > Of course, you'd also be one in a
> > hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally,
> > I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the
> > engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc.
>
> I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available online
> about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become quite
> savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the skills
> to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions
to
> ask.
>
> It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is the
> riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life
of
> the riveted joint to be significant.
>
> > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There is
> > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match
> > drilling.
>
> True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing, either,
> or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make
> some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the
> instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just
us
> here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could
> understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the
> manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second
guess
> him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering knowledge
> to argue the point?
>
> > Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However,
> > there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in Van's
> > instructions and my copy of AC 43.13.
>
> Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching process,
> so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the
> holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if
> you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant.
>
> > I
> > remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the
> > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a
> > structural item.
>
> You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you
didn't
> drill out first.
>
> > Much deviation is done on our craft.
>
> And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure of
> the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a fuel
> line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst
> thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will quit
> and you'll have to deadstick.
>
> > Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was
> > made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened
> > metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way
> > showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
>
> You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work
> hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look
> intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a
microscope
> too.
>
> > Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the
> > boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are
> > perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without
> > forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's
> > that important?
>
> Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to
> learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering
it
> and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they
> posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know when
> it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's
> unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably
> simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone
> who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best place
> for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at
> www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call
Vans,
> and ask them.
>
> > I just think that my drilling may not be as
> > good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem
> > later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know
> > what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the
> > need for jigs.
>
> On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are
> aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the
holes,
> shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple,
> reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue.
>
> > As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A
> > quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-)
>
> Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-)
>
> -Rob
>
>
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Navaid servo installation under seat |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 1:21:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, mstewart@iss.net
writes:
<< Does anyone have pictures of a WORKING installation under the seat for
an rv-6? >>
I'm certain you will get other offers but you could call Navaid at
423-267-3311 and ask them for RV-6 under seat installation sketches and they will
send
you some.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, final assembly
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Coers" <jcoers@bellsouth.net>
Nothing brings me more joy than watching Jim stir it up on the list. Well,
maybe a couple of things bring me more joy. :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
>
>
>> I think I'm going to stop match drilling too. I think my choice of PRIMER
>> will keep the skins from cracking. Not that my plane will have much
stress
>> on it anyway, since it's a tricycle gear with a slider canopy. I mean, if
>I
>> were to build a taildragger with a tip up canopy and some inferior PRIMER
>> (non zinc chromate) then yes I might want the strength that match
drilling
>> provides.
>>
>> Have a nice day :-)
>
>Fellas, you have to understand Mike's outburst. He lives further out in
the
>boonies than I do! He's really in trouble. :-)
>
>Oh, yeah. He's not been too afraid to ride in my -6A, even though I built
>it. :-)
>
>Jim Sears in KY
>do not archive
>
>
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
What is done with the punched lightening holes in the ribs. They aren't
drilled and they are flanged which is much like dimpling.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> Jim Sears wrote:
>
> > Since this discussion is starting to turn nasty, I'll just back off and
let
> > it slide. You've made your point that I may not be so sharp because I
live
> > in the boondocks. In fact, I'm probably not smart enough to build
my -7A
> > just because I'm willing to challenge an issue. Hmmm. I really thought
I
> > had this building thing going OK. My RV-6A has about 300 hours on it.
The
> > RV-9A I helped to build is flying quite well. I really thought I knew
how
> > to build. Others I know seem to think so. Maybe I don't. I guess my
> > building a new -7A will tell it for me. Maybe not. :-)
> >
> > Jim Sears in KY
> > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> > RV-7A #70317
> > EAA Tech Counselor
>
>
> Ok Jim, since you live way too far out in the boonies to know how to
> safely build an airplane, I will be in KY Saturday to fly your plane
> back to Alabama for safe keeping. Some of my buddies will be up there in
> a truck to pick up the RV-7A you are workin' on.
>
> They last thing we want happening is for some unlucky slob to buy one of
> your planes and have the thing turn to dust while he is airborne.
>
> Good grief, I bet you didn't dip each rivet in primer before you stuck
> it in the hole either! Bet you didn't even take a Q-tip and primer the
> inside of the holes. Maybe we better disassemble your RV-6; I'm not sure
> I feel safe flying it!!!!!!
>
> See you Saturday,
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Coers" <jcoers@bellsouth.net>
It was that thingy call the spar.
-----Original Message-----
From: groves@epix.net <groves@epix.net>
Subject: Re: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>--> RV-List message posted by: <groves@epix.net>
>
>
>>
>> Now, that's a dandy idea, Bob! I'll have to remember to do that! "I
>> remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the
tail.
>> It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a
structural"
>> item.
> Just curious what part did the builder leave out?
> Thanks Kirk 81925
>
>
>>
>> Much deviation is done on our craft. Some of what I read about, and have
>> seen, scares the dickens out of me. I guess the biggest deviation I did
in
>> mine was the fuel system. I decided that running the fuel line up the
side
>> of the fuselage to the firewall didn't appeal to me. I ran mine up the
>> center along the angle stock. Guess what. I must have been right. The
>> newer RVs are done that way, as well. :-) Of course, I don't have a
>> gascolator, either. My Cheetah didn't; so, my RV doesn't. Good move on
my
>> part. :-)
>>
>> >As a mechanical engineer, I know that punching the holes will work
harden
>> >the material around the edge of the hole. You can't see it with a
>> magnifying >glass, and i'd be surprised if you could see it with a
>> microscope.
>>
>> Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test was
>> made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened
metal
>> would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way showed no
>> worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
>>
>> >Drilling out the hole just a small amount will remove most, if not all,
of
>> that >work hardening. If that work hardened area is not removed, you can
be
>> sure >that the fatigue life of the aircraft will suffer as a result.
>>
>> So, why isn't it mentioned in the manual if it's such a big issue?
>> Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the
boondocks
>> who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are perfectly
aligned,
>> will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without forcing the dimpler
into
>> the hole. Why is it not in the manual if it's that important?
>>
>> >Whether it means you knocked 1000 hours or 10 hours off the life of the
>> >aircraft, nobody could tell unless they knew exactly what conditions the
>> >airplane has been, and will be, subject to during it's service life.
But
>> why >would you knowingly shorten the life of your aircraft? It's really
a
>> small step, >and one that goes quite quickly.
>>
>> I'm not disputing that. I just think that my drilling may not be as good
as
>> the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem later.
>> Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know what making
>> holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus, the need for
jigs.
>> Yeah, some of you
>> guys don't use those, either. I do.
>>
>> As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A
quick
>> look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-) I'm betting that most
of
>> our RVs will never see 10K hours. OTOH, maybe they will. They're
stronger
>> than the average Piper and Cessna. At the rate I fly mine, it'll be many
>> years before I see that. By then, I may have another one. :-) I'm sure
>> many of us can relate to that. I also won't worry about whether I've
sold
>> someone a bad deal. If I even think I might be doing that, I wouldn't
sell
>> it. I guess the factory's fleet should give us an idea. They'll
probably
>> put on hours much faster than we do.
>>
>> >Personally, I want my aircraft to have the highest resale value possible
in
>> >the unlikely event that I want to sell it at some point. Cutting
corners
>> in >construction, and admitting it on a public, archived, mailing list,
>> isn't the way to >ensure that high resale value.
>>
>> Rob, I'm sure most of the RVs we see out there will be sold just fine
>> without regard to what we say here. However, what does concern me is the
>> fact that a lot of RVs are being sold out there that I wouldn't ride in.
>> The riveting is really bad, the engine installations are not that good,
>> wiring is all over the place, wrong size fasteners, etc. I saw one -6A
that
>> had rivets in the main spars that were barely bucked. Well, let's just
say
>> the rivets were tapped a little. This airplane had been flown and had
eight
>> hours on it! Whoa!!!! Another example I saw just recently was a tail
kit
>> for a -8. The builder was getting ready to sell it because he wanted to
>> build a -10. I saw 3/32 rivets barely tapped. The 1/8 rivets were a mix
of
>> barely tapped, beaten so hard that little of the shop head was left,
smiley
>> faces so deep that they cut almost though the head. None appeared to
have
>> been replaced. Now, this guy was trying to sell this kit at a premium
>> price. I quickly told him the errors of his ways and offered assistance
at
>> learning riveting skills. For my project, I found a very nicely done
tail
>> that was much better priced. It can go both ways.
>>
>> It looks as if we agree that we disagree. I'd like to see something in
the
>> manual that tells me that work hardened holes are a major need for the
>> drilling. All I've seen so far is that I need to do it to make the holes
>> align better. Now, that I can understand and may do for that purpose.
If
>> it's a problem, an update to the manuals we hold should be issued, like a
>> service bulletin. Since my copy of the manual is fairly new, I'd think
it
>> would be in there. I may ask one of my flying buddies if his -10 manual
>> said anything about that.
>>
>> > I found it useful to get a power screwdriver (eg Black and Decker) and
put
>> >he deburrer tool in the chuck. This is then dedicated to that job
orever,
>> and >liminated the carpal tunnel syndrome possibility of all those 10,000
>> deburrs
>>
>> Oh, yeah. Before I forget. I mentioned that some don't debur. I do. I
>> may have mislead some of you. I've found that a rivet will set down on
the
>> hole much better if the hole has been deburred. There are times when I
>> can't debur; but, those are few. Thanks, Gordon! Good advice.
>>
>> Jim Sears in KY
>> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
>> RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts. Awaiting wings)
>> EAA Tech Counselor
>> do not archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Charlie,
When I said I deburred after drilling, deburring and dimpling, I meant deburr
the back side where it is stretched from the dimpling operation. 3/32 is
.09375 inches. As you pointed out, after you dimple the hole measures about .100
inches or more. That's quite a stretch from 3/32, and that's why the hole
looks rough. A quick turn of my "blue tool" from Avery's shines it right up.
Actually, I didn't do this to the whole airplane. Even I am not that
particular. BTW my bits from Avery drill a round hole when turned at high RPM
in my
Sioux air drill -- at least most of the time.
Now, let me stir a little more. Let me tell you about my riveting technique.
I have been pre-squeezing my 3/32 rivets up to about .100 in my hand
squeezer before beating on the skin of the airplane with the air hammer. I found
that the shorter, fatter rivets always drive straight, and the skin looks a lot
better after I'm done. The rivets do that anyway, why beat up the airplane
doing it? Also, I always use about a 3 inch strip of Vans special riveting tape
over just one rivet. I use the same piece of tape for up to about 20 rivets,
moving it about 1/8 inch each rivet. It protects the skin and the tool, and
gives a better target to aim at. It does take a little more time, but it
really did improve my riveting.
What do you think?
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (almost done)
In a message dated 3/31/04 8:50:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
cengland@netdoor.com writes:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie &Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
>
>
> Gotta stir this pot just a little more.
>
> First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 ( drill bits, &
> I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a
> deburring tool &use it regularly.
>
> I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer
> when they were going to go ahead &punch the holes 'full size' &save us
> all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was
> enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue
> the match drilling thing for now.
>
> I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An
> untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap
> calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after
> drill only, and one after standard #40 drill &debur. Final sizes varied
> from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using
> recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the
> drilled/deburred &dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples.
> The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool
> chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al.
> (learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything
> similar after standard drill/debur/dimple?
>
> Charlie
>
Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 9:21:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
jcoers@bellsouth.net writes:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Coers" <jcoers@bellsouth.net>
>
> It was that thingy call the spar.
>
>
Are you talking about the horizontal stab or vertical stab? How did he get
it to stick to the airplane at all?
Message 71
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|
"'vansairforce'" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker@charter.net>
I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were on
the core?
Charlie Becker
N464CB RV8A(e)
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: RV-List: engine woes...
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't
have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
paperweight for a while...
I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting
old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>Tedd, I'm betting the person selling that airplane to you isn't going to
>tell you whether he match drilled it, or not. He's going to be showing you
>the virtues of his airplane. Of course, you'd also be one in a hundred that
>might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally, I'd be guilty of
>not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the engine installation,
>the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc. I'm betting most of the
>rest of us would, as well.
>
>
>
In my experience, if a builder is too lazy to build the airplane the way
the kit manufacturer recommended, you'll see other evidence elsewhere,
you won't have to be told about the way he drilled the holes.
And I mean it when I say lazy. Not match drilling is just a way to save
time and effort, it will NOT make it a better airplane.
Dave Bristol
EAA Technical Counselor
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Hopperdhh@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
>
>
> Charlie,
>
> When I said I deburred after drilling, deburring and dimpling, I meant deburr
> the back side where it is stretched from the dimpling operation. 3/32 is
> .09375 inches. As you pointed out, after you dimple the hole measures about
.100
> inches or more. That's quite a stretch from 3/32, and that's why the hole
> looks rough. A quick turn of my "blue tool" from Avery's shines it right up.
> Actually, I didn't do this to the whole airplane. Even I am not that
> particular. BTW my bits from Avery drill a round hole when turned at high RPM
in my
> Sioux air drill -- at least most of the time.
<Snip>
I have a question.
If a driven rivet pulls up tight enough to prevent any relative motion
between the rivet and the two pieces of aluminum, or the aluminum pieces
to each other, how can cracks propagate from the rough edges of the
rivet hole?
No movement, no cracks, right?
Sam Buchanan
Sam Buchanan
Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that
>illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine
>compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block
>like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can
>with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with air
>compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine
>shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start, you
>open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it fills
>the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc.
>
>
If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure
oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the
case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear.
Dave Bristol
EAA Technical Counselor
Message 75
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry G RV-7 N697RV <edge540t@direcway.com>
I cant agree with you any more the reamer dose allot better job for round
and smother hole. I started on the
wings with the reamer instead of a drill bit when I could.
It don't leave the nasty drill burr.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@QCBC.ORG>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Cy Galley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a
> chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round
> smooth hole. You don't get smooth nor round with a drill bit.
>
> Cy Galley, TC - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair, Oshkosh
> Editor, EAA Safety Programs
> cgalley@qcbc.org or sportpilot@eaa.org
>
> Always looking for articles for Sport Pilot
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior" <rv7@b4.ca>
> >
> > On 12:46 31/03/2004 Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com> wrote:
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> > > Of course, you'd also be one in a
> > > hundred that might even think to ask the question. :-) Personally,
> > > I'd be guilty of not asking and would be looking at the riveting, the
> > > engine installation, the wiring, attachments, general condition, etc.
> >
> > I think in the case of the RV's, with so much information available
online
> > about them, it wouldn't take long for a prospective buyer to become
quite
> > savvy about the ins and outs of RV-building. They may not have the
skills
> > to build it themselves, but you can be sure they'll learn what questions
> to
> > ask.
> >
> > It's interesting that the first thing you mention you would look at is
the
> > riveting, but you wouldn't consider something that would reduce the life
> of
> > the riveted joint to be significant.
> >
> > > I just had to get out my new manual and preview plans. Whoa! There
is
> > > no mention of limited life of the airframe from the lack of match
> > > drilling.
> >
> > True. But the manual can't tell you how to do every little thing,
either,
> > or it'd be 3 feet thick instead of one binder's worth. You have to make
> > some choices on your own, based on the instructions provided. If the
> > instructions didn't say that drilling out was necessary, and it was just
> us
> > here on the 'list telling you you need to drill them out, I could
> > understand your position. But the designer spells it out in both the
> > manual and in direct feedback to customers when they ask. Why second
> guess
> > him, when you (by your own admission) don't have the engineering
knowledge
> > to argue the point?
> >
> > > Well chosen words, Tedd. That's what we should be doing. However,
> > > there is no mention that I could find about work hardened holes in
Van's
> > > instructions and my copy of AC 43.13.
> >
> > Keep in mind that the work hardening is a result of the punching
process,
> > so AC43.13 wouldn't mention it. Van doesn't mention it because once the
> > holes are drilled out, you've removed that work hardened area. So if
> > you're following the plans, it becomes irrelevant.
> >
> > > I
> > > remember a while back that one builder left out one small piece in the
> > > tail. It cost him his life. A small deviation from plans that was a
> > > structural item.
> >
> > You might want to keep that in mind every time you dimple a hole you
> didn't
> > drill out first.
> >
> > > Much deviation is done on our craft.
> >
> > And deviation is good, as long as you're not mucking with the structure
of
> > the aircraft without some solid engineering analysis first. Moving a
fuel
> > line isn't going to make your plane fall out of the sky, and the worst
> > thing that will happen without a gascolator is that your engine will
quit
> > and you'll have to deadstick.
> >
> > > Bob, I wouldn't even try to do it before dimpling the hole. My test
was
> > > made after I'd dimpled each hole. I would think that a work hardened
> > > metal would show stress cracks around the hole when dimpled. One way
> > > showed no worse than the other. Both ways deformed the holes some.
> >
> > You would be wrong about seeing stress cracks from work hardening. Work
> > hardening is a microscopic change in the metallurgy, it will still look
> > intact and uncracked under magnifying glass and probably under a
> microscope
> > too.
> >
> > > Remember, I'm not an engineer. I'm just an average builder in the
> > > boondocks who knows no better and have discovered that my holes are
> > > perfectly aligned, will accept rivets well, and can be dimpled without
> > > forcing the dimpler into the hole. Why is it not in the manual if
it's
> > > that important?
> >
> > Because it's expected that a prospective builder will take the time to
> > learn the skills to build an airplane properly, not start re-engineering
> it
> > and rationalizing the changes with some limited scope of knowledge they
> > posess. A builder with an engineering background (like me) will know
when
> > it's safe to deviate from the design and when to ask advice if it's
> > unclear. A builder without the engineering background should probably
> > simply stick to the plans and builder's manual, unless they know someone
> > who can provide them with some engineering expertise. And the best
place
> > for a "builder in the boondocks" with internet access to start is at
> > www.vansaircraft.com. Don't take my (or anyone's) word for it. Call
> Vans,
> > and ask them.
> >
> > > I just think that my drilling may not be as
> > > good as the machine's hole. That may cause a small alignment problem
> > > later. Remember that I drilled all but a very few in my -6A. I know
> > > what making holes bigger does. I can cause things to shift. Thus,
the
> > > need for jigs.
> >
> > On my -7 kit, the holes are only drilled out once all the components are
> > aligned in their final configuration. Every second cleco, drill the
> holes,
> > shift the Clecos by one, drill the other holes. Disassemble, dimple,
> > reassemble, rivet. Alignment shouldn't be an issue.
> >
> > > As for service life, I'm not sure anyone can really predict that. A
> > > quick look at the old DC-3s will enforce that one. :-)
> >
> > Sure, but every one of those holes was drilled out. 8-)
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
>
>
Message 76
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote:
> No movement, no cracks, right?
No, that's not correct. No relative movement is required to propagate cracks,
only stress. In fact, under the right conditions cracks can propagate while
the part is sitting on the shelf (for example, stress corrosion cracks).
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 77
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--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
Wheeler North wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
>Well,
>
>I don't know about other states but in The People's Republic of Kalifornia
>its a violation of statute to pay someone for the opportunity to play with
>their dongle. Not sure what the statute says about pay-for-play with out of
>state dongle's though.
>
>;{)
>
>
>Wheeler,
>
I don't think they'll care as long as they get their sales tax. :>(
Dave, So Cal
do not archive
Message 78
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Which is why you also need the Ney Nozzle mod. To spray oil on the
lobes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Bristol
Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes...
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that
>illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine
>compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or
block
>like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of
can
>with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil,
with air
>compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine
>shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start,
you
>open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it
fills
>the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc.
>
>
If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure
oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the
case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear.
Dave Bristol
EAA Technical Counselor
==
==
==
==
Message 79
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| Subject: | Re: Where to buy #4 Stainless Screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2@yahoo.com>
I might also suggest your local Radio Shack for the #4 SS screws.
Greg
Vanremog@aol.com wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 3/30/2004 4:28:01 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rv6apilot@yahoo.com writes:
I am having problems finding a place to buy those
#440-(6) or (8)Stainless Steel Machine Screws.
==========================
Try Olander listed in the Yeller Pages.
GV (RV-6A N1GV flying 685 hrs)
---------------------------------
Message 80
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Tedd McHenry wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>
>>No movement, no cracks, right?
>
>
> No, that's not correct. No relative movement is required to propagate cracks,
> only stress. In fact, under the right conditions cracks can propagate while
> the part is sitting on the shelf (for example, stress corrosion cracks).
Uh oh......are you saying that Vans is shipping airframe kits that
possibly have stress corrosion cracks propagating while the parts are in
the warehouse, being shipped to us, and sitting in our shops waiting to
be assembled?
How can we be assured that the "right conditions" are not present which
can enable stress corrosion cracks from occurring while Vans is cutting
out the parts for my kit? Apparently these insidious cracks may be
propagating due to no negligence on my part.
Or should I insist that some of the guys in the factory at Vans go ahead
and polish all the edges of the kit parts so I won't be faced with
stress corrosion cracks on my brand new parts. Goodness knows having the
parts trucked all the way across the country to the boonies of Alabama
is plenty stressful.
How do I know those kit parts aren't getting stressed out? Is there such
a thing as stress corrosion crack syndrome (SCCS)? I can't stand the
thought of paying a lot of money for a kit that is already stressed out
before I have a chance to stress it out in my shop.
I am finding this whole idea to be very stressful. Matter of fact I
think I may be cracking up. Somebody deburr me.....quick! No, even
better, ream me out! And while you are at it, gimme a shot of epoxy
primer! I'm too young to succumb to SCCS!!
Sam Buchanan
Message 81
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hal / Carol Kempthorne <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 02:00 PM 3/31/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
>I will always remove the work-hardened material around the hole
><skip down a few lines and you say>
>Maybe that explains why you've built three and I'm still working on my
>first.
There is something to this! There can be some difference in the level of
craftmanship or maybe perfection from one RV to another and yet both still
be safe flying machines. We know that some of our tools look and perform
alike but one is built to last longer tho usually at a higher price.
Personally, I think most RV accidents will be pilot error and a few will be
due to components attached to the airframe rather than the airframe itself.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 82
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Bruce Gray wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>Which is why you also need the Ney Nozzle mod. To spray oil on the
>lobes.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
All the Ney Nozzles in the world will not prevent the rusting and
corrosion that occurs when an engine sits for long periods without being
used. When used frequently the oil film left on the lobes and cam
follower should prevent major wear from occuring . IMHO of course!
Linn
do not archive
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dave Bristol
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes...
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>
>
>
>>But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that
>>illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine
>>compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or
>>
>>
>block
>
>
>>like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of
>>
>>
>can
>
>
>>with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil,
>>
>>
>with air
>
>
>>compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine
>>shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start,
>>
>>
>you
>
>
>>open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it
>>
>>
>fills
>
>
>>the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure
>oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the
>
>case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear.
>
>Dave Bristol
>EAA Technical Counselor
>
>
>==
>==
>==
>==
>
>
>
>
Message 83
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| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> My friend has already made three, repeat three, emergency landings with his
> Subaru engine....my Lycoming hasn't made any and it's been flying eight
> times longer....you get what you pay for.
Your friend's Subaru was a roll-your-own junkyard special.
My friend just rolled over 450 hours on his Eggenfellner Subaru and reports
that it has yet to miss a beat or use any oil between 50-hour changes. He
sends the oil out for spectroscopic analysis every time, and every time it
comes back "no wear."
So I guess you're right, you do get what you pay for. What you pay for with an
Eggenfellner is a complete, tested package. As someone else pointed out, the
auxilliaries are where you're most likely to have a problem, and that is the
key advantage of a well engineered package.
I'm not bad-mouthing roll-your-own engine conversions. I really admire the
people who do it well, and I'd like to do it myself, eventually. But one
person's problem-plagued installation is not a reflection on a well-engineered
package like Eggenfellner's.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
Message 84
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<rv8list@yahoogroups.com>, "vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
| Subject: | Re: Subaru Engines... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
sorry about this post, I am just a little frustrated....
-Bill
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
<vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Subaru Engines...
You know I just don't understand why anyone would pay $22K for an engine
that you can buy new from Sub for less than $5K!?
I'm sorry... I'm sure this will piss some people off, but why does this
$hit cost so much!
-Bill
Message 85
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
One of the first things I encountered when I started my -9 was a roughness
when I ran my fingers across holes I had deburred with the Avery 3 flute
tool. So I looked at the hole with a strong hand lens & saw
chattering. Tried more pressure, less pressure, spin faster, slower &
every thing else I could think of to eliminate it. Talked to Bob Avery who
sent me another bit but still had the problem. Finally ordered the single
flute bit & the chattering is 90% reduced. Also found that if I tilt the
handle of my tool outward (to give a flatter angle) as I spin it, it does a
nicer job & does it in only one turn.
Richard Scott
9 Emp
Message 86
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
Charley, et al
I always cleco matching parts together, match drill, deburr, and dimple. I
use only the Avery 6 flute chatterless deburr tool after discovering that
the 3 flute tools in combination with cordless screwdrivers leaves what
resemble tiny gear teeth (ripples) around the holes. The 6 flute leaves a
smooth clean deburr and works well for countersinking flanges for nutplate
rivets. A piece of 1/4 inch rod, a short piece of 1/4 inch I D al tube, and
5 minute epoxy make a nice extension for the tool. I normally use a light
cordless slow speed drill for deburring whenever possible. By the way, this
same drill with a 3 flute tool would leave the same "gear tooth" effect as
the cordless screwdriver because of gear train resonance in both drives.
Dean Van Winkle
Retired Aero Engineer
RV-9A Fus/Finish
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charlie & Tupper England" <cengland@netdoor.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England
<cengland@netdoor.com>
>
> Gotta stir this pot just a little more.
>
> First, for the record ;-) , I've got lots of #30 & #40 drill bits, &
> I've worn some out on my relatively new RV-7 project. I also have a
> deburring tool & use it regularly.
>
> I asked Van, his on self, face to face, in person, at OSH last summer
> when they were going to go ahead & punch the holes 'full size' & save us
> all some build time. His answer (his *only* answer) was that there was
> enough variation in drilling patterns that they preferred to continue
> the match drilling thing for now.
>
> I tried a little experiment on some prepunched angle this afternoon. An
> untouched hole would accept about a #41 or #42 bit (~.090 on my cheap
> calipers). I dimpled one hole 'raw', one after debur only, one after
> drill only, and one after standard #40 drill & debur. Final sizes varied
> from .100 to .110 depending on actions taken, with .110 after using
> recommended technique. The interesting thing is that the
> drilled/deburred & dimpled hole edge looked roughest of all the samples.
> The convex side edge had 'ripples' obviously caused by the debur tool
> chattering. It's a standard 3-flute tool available from Avery, et al.
> (learned that when I got sued once.) Has anyone else seen anything
> similar after standard drill/debur/dimple?
>
> Charlie
>
>
Message 87
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| Subject: | PC680 battery box |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Thanks Gary.
But just so I feel better, I must say ... Arrrggghhh!! ;-)
I **JUST** finished installing a dual set of the earlier steel ones! (Cut
out eight (~2") lightening holes in each box).
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Zilik
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 2:22 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: PC680 battery box
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@excelgeo.com>
>
> Just found this on the internet and it looks pretty cool. Brushed
> aluminum and ready to bolt on. No fabrication needed and it's FAA
> approved too!
>
> http://www.odysseybatteries.com/pc680hd.htm
>
> Gary
>
>
Message 88
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--> RV-List message posted by: Keith T Uhls <keithuhls@juno.com>
Listers,
My father and I are building an RV-7 and my Dad will be spending a month
down in Australia in the Brisbane area, I just wanted to see if there
was anyone he could visit so he could get an RV fix. Drop me an e-mail
off line to contact me.
Keith Uhls
keithuhls@juno.com
RV-7 finish kit (90% done 90 % to go)
N7KU
Message 89
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| Subject: | BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this
>is
>a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not
>say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to
>get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is
>done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered
>by
>FAR Part 91.
>
>Mike Robertson
>Das Fed
Mike,
I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a local
CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review
for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be
"instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except
for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on
the controls.
My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was
more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once
expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the
airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the ground,
and he signed me off.
So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just
get it over with?
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
Message 90
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| Subject: | new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that
way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning
tendencies.
Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is
located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta
assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
confirm my thinking?
I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes
in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then*
make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 91
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
But you'll still make it to TBO, unlike those auto engines.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
DO NOT ARCHIVE
But on the other hand, my auto engine will never have any cam problems : )
Tracy Crook
(1360 hours of Hmmmm, No cams, no rods, no valves, no heads, no pistons, $530
for overhaul (if it ever needs it)
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Message 92
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
Your instructor should at least 5 hours in that plane before he
teaches in it. Then its ok. That is what I have found out so far. But
the problem for anyone wanting to do this is finding an instructor who
will use your plane. Also remember your plane has to have the 40 hours
on it before 2 people can go up in it.
Brett
p.s. by the way the 40 is all most on my XL. A couple more nice days
and its done.
Message 93
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
On Wed, 31 Mar 2004, Sam Buchanan wrote:
> How can we be assured that the "right conditions" are not present which
> can enable stress corrosion cracks from occurring while Vans is cutting
> out the parts for my kit? Apparently these insidious cracks may be
> propagating due to no negligence on my part.
I'm guessing you were joking here, but just in case you weren't or in case
someone reading your post misinterprets it, I'll give a stright-up answer.
In a nutshell, you can be confident this isn't happening if everyone involved
in designing and making the parts follows accepted practices. Not certain, but
confident. The aircraft industry has invested a phenomenal amount of effort
into determining how to make, install, maintain, and use parts in such as way
as to minimize problems such as stress corrosion cracking. And, in the case of
parts from Van's, I think it's fairly safe to assume that appropriate practices
have been followed, right up until the parts arrive in your shop in Van's
carefully designed crate. After that, it's up to you.
When I described crack propagation in parts sitting on the shelf I was talking
about something that can and has happened, but I was not suggesting that this
was a risk with parts in your RV kit. I was simply pointing out that your
assertion (that relative movement of the parts was required to propagate
cracks) isn't correct. Cracks produced in the production process (including by
the kit builder) can propagate into failure in many different ways, and it
behooves us to learn to avoid making those cracks as best we can.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC
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