Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:43 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (RV8ter@aol.com)
2. 03:13 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Jim Sears)
3. 03:51 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Sears)
4. 03:55 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
5. 03:57 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Sears)
6. 04:13 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
7. 05:11 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Bob U.)
8. 05:28 AM - Re: engine woes... (LarryRobertHelming)
9. 05:38 AM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (linn walters)
10. 05:38 AM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (sjhdcl@kingston.net)
11. 06:01 AM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Alex Peterson)
12. 06:11 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Alex Peterson)
13. 06:13 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
14. 06:21 AM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Scott Bilinski)
15. 06:34 AM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Scott Bilinski)
16. 06:34 AM - Match drilling (DAVAWALKER@aol.com)
17. 06:39 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Jim Sears)
18. 06:40 AM - new RV-7 electrical problem fixed (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
19. 06:49 AM - Geez (Dana Overall)
20. 06:57 AM - Re: [rv8list] Re: engine woes... (Bill VonDane)
21. 07:17 AM - More on Engine... (Bill VonDane)
22. 07:25 AM - Sensenich Prop 180 HP and spinner for sale (DJB6A@cs.com)
23. 07:25 AM - Re: [rv8list] Re: engine woes... (Bruce Gray)
24. 07:38 AM - Re: Land down under (Nebr RV-8)
25. 07:46 AM - RV-10 Details (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
26. 07:48 AM - Re: Geez (C. Rabaut)
27. 07:57 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Doug Rozendaal)
28. 08:07 AM - Re: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed (Dan Checkoway)
29. 08:42 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Jim Oke)
30. 09:19 AM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (RobHickman@aol.com)
31. 10:19 AM - Overhaul Videos... (Bill VonDane)
32. 10:37 AM - Re: engine woes... (Kysh)
33. 11:28 AM - Training in Experimental (Donald Mei)
34. 11:41 AM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (JOHN STARN)
35. 12:13 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (C. Rabaut)
36. 12:23 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Brian Denk)
37. 12:26 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Brian Denk)
38. 12:43 PM - Re: Geez (John Huft)
39. 12:59 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (JOHN STARN)
40. 01:05 PM - UHMW tape ()
41. 01:05 PM - Re: Geez (JOHN STARN)
42. 01:16 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Tom Gummo)
43. 01:32 PM - Re: UHMW tape (Scott Bilinski)
44. 02:03 PM - Re: UHMW tape (Dan Checkoway)
45. 02:19 PM - RV-10 Building was BFR and Training in an Experimental (RobHickman@aol.com)
46. 02:27 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Eustace Bowhay)
47. 02:32 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Greg Young)
48. 03:30 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Alex Peterson)
49. 03:30 PM - Re: Geez (Dana Overall)
50. 03:48 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Dave Hyde)
51. 03:57 PM - Re: UHMW tape (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
52. 03:58 PM - Re: Dielectric grease (Wayne R. Couture)
53. 04:05 PM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Dave Bristol)
54. 04:09 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Ronnie Brown)
55. 04:26 PM - stress (Wheeler North)
56. 04:29 PM - Re: UHMW tape (Stein Bruch)
57. 04:38 PM - Re: Dielectric grease (J. R. Dial)
58. 05:13 PM - Re: stress (Jim Jewell)
59. 05:45 PM - Re: UHMW tape ()
60. 07:19 PM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (James E. Clark)
61. 07:57 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Mike Robertson)
62. 07:57 PM - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Rob W M Shipley)
63. 08:17 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Jerry Springer)
64. 08:25 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Doug Rozendaal)
65. 08:26 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Mike Robertson)
66. 08:31 PM - Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental (Mike Robertson)
67. 09:07 PM - Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? (Mickey Coggins)
68. 10:47 PM - Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise (Dan Checkoway)
69. 11:33 PM - swivel air adaptors (Jeff Cours)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com
Local RVrs told me that they had no problem getting their BFR done in a RV8
as long as it was equipped with the rear seat rudder pedals and throttle along
with the obvious control stick. That ended up being the only reason I
bothered with installing the rear seat rudder pedals.
lucky
In a message dated 4/1/2004 12:47:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
akroguy@hotmail.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this
>is
>a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do not
>say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to
>get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection is
>done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered
>by
>FAR Part 91.
>
>Mike Robertson
>Das Fed
Mike,
I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a local
CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review
for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be
"instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except
for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on
the controls.
My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was
more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once
expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the
airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the ground,
and he signed me off.
So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just
get it over with?
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> Local RVrs told me that they had no problem getting their BFR done in a
RV8
> as long as it was equipped with the rear seat rudder pedals and throttle
along
> with the obvious control stick. That ended up being the only reason I
> bothered with installing the rear seat rudder pedals.
Golly, gee! Now, I've seen another plus for owning one of the side by side
RVs. Mine has rudder pedals, throttle, and second stick as part of the
normal building sequence. They aren't optional. I just remove the right
stick for most passengers. I can always drop it in for the CFI. This list
really is useful for something. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts. Awaiting wings.)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> I always cleco matching parts together, match drill, deburr, and dimple.
I
> use only the Avery 6 flute chatterless deburr tool after discovering that
> the 3 flute tools in combination with cordless screwdrivers leaves what
> resemble tiny gear teeth (ripples) around the holes. The 6 flute leaves a
> smooth clean deburr and works well for countersinking flanges for nutplate
> rivets.
Dean just brought up another point that interests me; so, I'm speaking up
again, after all. :-)
I have the old style deburring tool that has less cutters. I know mine must
have the chatter ripples around them, even though I was very careful to
debur the holes as instructed. With that, I must have weakened every hole I
drilled in my -6A. Does this mean that my RV is going to start falling
apart; or, can I be assured that it's going to be holding together for many
years to come? I'd not ask the question; but, I'm betting nearly every RV
built before the prepunched stuff used an Avery debur tool, or one of the
same quality, and has those ripples. Does this mean that all of
us -3, -4, -6, etc. builders now have that to worry about along with those
guys and gals who are not match drilling? Maybe match drilling is the
least of our worries? I just wonder what Van and company used on their old
blue RV-6A. Hmmm.
Now, do I ground Scooter to keep it from falling apart in flight; or, do I
just ignore this discussion and keep on flying it? I think you know the
answer to that! I'm going to keep on flying it and do my usual condition
inspection each year where I look for cracks, etc., that may be forming. So
far, I've seen nothing like that. It's now in its fifth year of flying.
However, I think I'll add that single flute debur tool to my wish list. I
don't want my new -7A to fall apart in flight, either. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
EAA Tech Counselor
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 10:18:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
sbuc@hiwaay.net writes:
>
> I have a question.
>
> If a driven rivet pulls up tight enough to prevent any relative motion
> between the rivet and the two pieces of aluminum, or the aluminum pieces
> to each other, how can cracks propagate from the rough edges of the
> rivet hole?
>
> No movement, no cracks, right?
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
Right Sam,
I actually came to the same conclusion during the night! These dimpled
rivets have a lot going for them. To really understand what a great joint it is
requires a lot of analysis. I just did a test sample, and carefully drilled it
apart. The hole actually expands to about .106 when you drive the rivet to
specs. Maybe you don't have to get in there (fortunately!) and deburr it
because (I speculate) the driving process compresses the "bad" surface and stress
relieves it anyway. Or maybe the joint under compression holds the "bad" area
from moving and propagating any stress cracks.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (almost done)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
I'm back!!!!
I was going to leave this discussion alone; but, I just can't stand it.
When we got into the discussion about the debur tools, I just had to step
back into it. I apologize for keeping this thread alive. :-)
Anyway, now that I've learned that I'm no longer smart enough to build an
airplane because I challenged the match drilling thing, somebody else has to
come in and say that I'm not deburing well, either. I'm devastated!!!
Alas, my RV was built before Avery offered the newer debur tools. Since I
buy most of my tools there, I'm sure my holes have the ripples caused by the
chatter you speak of. What am I to do, now? Wouldn't these cause problems
just as much as not match drilling? Will my RV come apart on me, now?
Should I ground Scooter and cut him up so nobody can fly him again?
I know. I'm getting foolish. I just couldn't help myself. The truth is,
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has those little ripples in almost every
hole like I've drilled in Scooter. I didn't know any better and thought I
was doing a good job because I made sure I deburred every hole. I'm sure
that just about any other RV builder of my RV's vintage, or earlier, has the
same problems. In fact, it's happening to them, right now! Should we worry
about that, as well?
Now, we have at least three problems with every hole we drill, for the skins
anyway. If we don't match drill, cracks can run from the holes. If we
don't have the proper debur tool, cracks can run from the holes. If we hit
the dimpler with a hammer,or squeeze it with a squeezer, we're deforming the
metal and must weaken the hole. With all of this damage, and the fact that
some don't rivet worth a crap, these airplanes are going to be falling apart
in short order! It may not be in our lifetimes; but, it's going to happen!
I sure don't want to be in one when it does. Maybe I should ground Scooter,
right now, and stop building my newest adventure project. Hmmm.
Now, guys. I think we're in the overkill mode, here. Granted, we want to
do the best job we can do. Based on the fleet of RVs that showed up at
Dana's fly in at Richmond, KY, we aren't doing half bad. I really don't
think any of us will need to worry about our airplanes falling apart. If
there is a problem with the holes, it may show up one rivet at a time. It
may never show up. Build to the best of your ability and stop worrying
about a problem that may not exist! Our RVs are so over built that many
rivets could fail before the airplane does.
Now, I'll quit. I may even go flying. :-)
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter, still flying after four years. No skin cracks)
RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, tail almost done, awaiting wings.)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Jim,
I think this has been a pretty good thread. The bottom line is the airplane
won't fall apart, no matter how crappy we build it! Well, within some limits,
of course! And I don't think it is necessary to get a sworn affidavit from
the builder that he/she deburred every hole before buying one.
Have a great flying day in Scooter,
Dan H
RV-7A (almost done)
Do not archive.
In a message dated 4/1/04 6:58:58 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
sears@searnet.com writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
>
> I'm back!!!!
>
> I was going to leave this discussion alone; but, I just can't stand it.
> When we got into the discussion about the debur tools, I just had to step
> back into it. I apologize for keeping this thread alive. :-)
>
> Anyway, now that I've learned that I'm no longer smart enough to build an
> airplane because I challenged the match drilling thing, somebody else has to
> come in and say that I'm not deburing well, either. I'm devastated!!!
> Alas, my RV was built before Avery offered the newer debur tools. Since I
> buy most of my tools there, I'm sure my holes have the ripples caused by the
> chatter you speak of. What am I to do, now? Wouldn't these cause problems
> just as much as not match drilling? Will my RV come apart on me, now?
> Should I ground Scooter and cut him up so nobody can fly him again?
>
> I know. I'm getting foolish. I just couldn't help myself. The truth is,
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has those little ripples in almost every
> hole like I've drilled in Scooter. I didn't know any better and thought I
> was doing a good job because I made sure I deburred every hole. I'm sure
> that just about any other RV builder of my RV's vintage, or earlier, has the
> same problems. In fact, it's happening to them, right now! Should we worry
> about that, as well?
>
> Now, we have at least three problems with every hole we drill, for the skins
> anyway. If we don't match drill, cracks can run from the holes. If we
> don't have the proper debur tool, cracks can run from the holes. If we hit
> the dimpler with a hammer,or squeeze it with a squeezer, we're deforming the
> metal and must weaken the hole. With all of this damage, and the fact that
> some don't rivet worth a crap, these airplanes are going to be falling apart
> in short order! It may not be in our lifetimes; but, it's going to happen!
> I sure don't want to be in one when it does. Maybe I should ground Scooter,
> right now, and stop building my newest adventure project. Hmmm.
>
> Now, guys. I think we're in the overkill mode, here. Granted, we want to
> do the best job we can do. Based on the fleet of RVs that showed up at
> Dana's fly in at Richmond, KY, we aren't doing half bad. I really don't
> think any of us will need to worry about our airplanes falling apart. If
> there is a problem with the holes, it may show up one rivet at a time. It
> may never show up. Build to the best of your ability and stop worrying
> about a problem that may not exist! Our RVs are so over built that many
> rivets could fail before the airplane does.
>
> Now, I'll quit. I may even go flying. :-)
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter, still flying after four years. No skin cracks)
> RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, tail almost done, awaiting wings.)
> EAA Tech Counselor
> do not archive
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." <rv3@comcast.net>
>
>
>>Local RVrs told me that they had no problem getting their BFR done in a
>>
>>
>RV8
>
>
>>as long as it was equipped with the rear seat rudder pedals and throttle
>>
>>
>along
>
>
>>with the obvious control stick. That ended up being the only reason I
>>bothered with installing the rear seat rudder pedals.
>>
>>
>
>Golly, gee! Now, I've seen another plus for owning one of the side by side
>RVs. Mine has rudder pedals, throttle, and second stick as part of the
>normal building sequence. They aren't optional. I just remove the right
>stick for most passengers. I can always drop it in for the CFI. This list
>really is useful for something. :-)
>
>Jim Sears in KY
>RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
>
I received my original RV-3 checkout for insurance purposes in an RV-6
with the CFI who built it. A really neat situation for us within reach
of Jefferson City, MO. Ditto for BFR's.
Do not archive
Bob in MO
RV-3 N863WL
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
I believe the TMX-360 experimental engines by Mattituck now include the
pressure lines to lubricate these areas. If interested, anyone could
further verify this by contacting Mahon Russell at Mattituck at
Mahlon_Russell@teledyne.com
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp
TMX-O-360 ACS2002 Dynon CNS430 Digitrak
JeffRose Flightline Interiors
Firewall Forward, Wiring
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bristol" <bj034@lafn.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: engine woes...
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>
> >
> >But, to the point, this is probably a classic case that
> >illustrates/justifies installing a "pre-oiler" - a quart can in engine
> >compartment plumbed to the main oil galley or some external hose or block
> >like oil cooler or filter - with a single in-out fitting in bottom of can
> >with valve that is open when engine is running (fills can with oil, with
air
> >compressed and trapped in top), then you close the valve before engine
> >shutdown (run up to get full oil pressure first). Then, before start,
you
> >open the valve and the compressed air in top forces out the oil so it
fills
> >the oil galley - and lubs camshafts, etc.
> >
> >
> If I remember correctly, the cam lobes and followers are not pressure
> oiled. The only oil they get is from "splash", and if that is indeed the
> case then pre-oiling will not do much for cam wear.
>
> Dave Bristol
> EAA Technical Counselor
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
>this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
>wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
>the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that
>way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning
>tendencies.
>
>Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
>
>The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is
>located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta
>assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
>
Why? What about every other surface out there .... even the ones
flapping in the wind?
>Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
>mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
>confirm my thinking?
>
On the surface, right out of the box, just for grins ..... can't tell if
you're on the right track. Go fly. I know, that's hard. With feet
flat on the floor. what inputs do you need to make the airplane fly
wings level? Remember, no rudder input. Now look at the ball .....
that's what you've been using for your 'need left rudder' statement
isn't it? Well, if the wings are level, and the nose is wandering
(turning right) and the ball is off center, you may have the rudder or
the engine thrust line out of rig. Or a flap too. If you were very
accurate in your ground rigging and both flaps are at the same level
..... check them in flight. Dynamic air pressure could be causing one
flap to ride up higher than the other. Rigging, Rigging, Rigging.
>I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes
>in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then*
>make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
>
Well, since no two Vans models are going to be the same (the factories
have the same problems) due to small assembly differences, they're not
going to fly the same. A different prop will have different
characteristics too, with regards to torque and airflow. I wouldn't
start with moving the VS attach point. You should really be needing
it. However, with regard to your question ..... since the slot would be
towards the aircraft centerline ..... the offset can't get worse if the
bolt comes 'loose' ...... i would say that you probably could get away
with the 'experiment'. However, unknowns like flutter could rear their
ugly head .... I doubt if anybody really knows. Something to think
about. I'd suggest looking at all the rigging a few more times before
I'd modify the design. You can also 'trim' the rudder by twisting the
steel cables to make one side tighter or looser .... it won't take much,
and the rudder is harder to check on what's happening in flight. Best
of luck .... but do a lot or reasearch first.
Linn
do not archive
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: sjhdcl@kingston.net
Interesting, left rudder.
What are you using to judge the required rudder? The Dynon? The ball on my
Dynon display I find to not be very accurate.
In any case you thinking is correct. Offsetting the rudder to the left
side causes the aircraft nose to turn right. I have the same 1/4" offset
in my VS and it flies straight. Too much displacement of the VS to the
left would require left rudder to correct.
I wouldn't elongate the bolt holes as a temporary movement. Either rivet
on an aluminum plate to the plate of the VS (flush rivet with head aft)
and then drill new bolt holes slightly offset from the previous holes. Ask
Van's about this one as well. This is only a temporary fix to judge the
new flight attitude.
An easier fix in my opinion is to use the wheelpants to offset the need
for rudder. If the required rudder is small just adjust the angle the gear
leg fairing are installed at. They're easy to change since the attachement
at the top of the gear leg is a simple clamp.
Before starting to tweak anything on your airplane, make sure the
instrument telling you left rudder is reading perfectly.
How the the rudder on take-off and climb? How much right rudder do you
require?
Steve
RV7A
65 hours
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
> this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
> wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
> the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the
> fairings...that
> way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any
> turning
> tendencies.
>
> Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
>
> The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge
> is
> located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I
> gotta
> assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
>
> Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
> mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
> confirm my thinking?
>
> I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt
> holes
> in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and
> *then*
> make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
>
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I
> can say that this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in
> cruise. I'm operating without wheel pants and without leg
> fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get the airplane
> perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the
> fairings...that way I'll know if the fairings are straight
> and are not imparting any turning tendencies.
It might be interesting to know why the ball is showing left now in your
current configuration, but not important. What really matters is what
is needed after you put all the fairings on. Two things will change -
the fairings will perhaps have a yawing affect one way or the other,
and, importantly, the airspeed will be higher. I have mine trimmed,
with a little tab on the rudder like most have, for typical cruise
settings. If I simply put the nose down for a shallow descent without
changing power, something like 10 - 15 knots extra speed, the ball moves
to the left.
Too many potentially offsetting variables to try to chase. I'd recommend
that you put the fairings on. The ball just might be centered, and the
engine will be happier too with the increased cooling air.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 447 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 12
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Chattering of cutting tools, such as a deburring tool, is probably due
to the rake angle being wrong. If the actual cutting surface is trying
to "dig in", it will cause the chattering. Opposing flutes of the three
flute cutter then compete with each other, causing the chatter. Get out
your eyepiece, and have a close look. The cutter needs to "scrape"
across the surface, instead of trying to plow itself deeper. A decent
starting point would be to have the forward edges be about 90 degrees to
the direction they are moving. Take a grinder or Dremel to the cutters
to get the angle right.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 447 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 3/31/04 9:18:53 PM Central Standard Time, sbuc@hiwaay.net
writes:
> If a driven rivet pulls up tight enough to prevent any relative motion
> between the rivet and the two pieces of aluminum, or the aluminum pieces
> to each other, how can cracks propagate from the rough edges of the
> rivet hole?
>
> No movement, no cracks, right?
Sam this only applies to driven and not squozen rivets, and then only when
primed. The repetitive pounding of the rivet gun imparts a shock wave through
the primer substrate that causes molecular collapse of the material at the
instant of impact, then as the set rebounds, the metal relaxes and allows the
primer substrate to form a "sponge" of primer that prevents the rivet from holding
full strength, resulting in microscopic relative motion between the parts.
Thus any stress risers on the periphery of the hole (caused by lack of
match-drilling/deburring to remove the punch-hardening) will allow cracks to radiate
outward from the hole and require stop-drilling to arrest the crack's progress.
This plays havoc with expensive paint finishes and is not a factor with
squoze riveting. And if you got this far without deleting, you might wish to
reconsider your hobby of choice! (or build a Lancair) And do be careful with
Jim's toy- nothing exceeding 6 G, remember...........
Mark and here's the requisite do not archive for this silly shyznit! 8-)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Actually I would put all the fairings on first then trim as necessary. They
do make a difference!!
At 10:13 PM 3/31/04 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
>this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
>wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
>the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that
>way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning
>tendencies.
>
>Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
>
>The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is
>located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta
>assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
>
>Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
>mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
>confirm my thinking?
>
>I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes
>in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then*
>make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Using the fairngs to center the ball causes more drag than a rudder trim tab.
At 08:36 AM 4/1/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: sjhdcl@kingston.net
>
>Interesting, left rudder.
>
>What are you using to judge the required rudder? The Dynon? The ball on my
>Dynon display I find to not be very accurate.
>
>In any case you thinking is correct. Offsetting the rudder to the left
>side causes the aircraft nose to turn right. I have the same 1/4" offset
>in my VS and it flies straight. Too much displacement of the VS to the
>left would require left rudder to correct.
>
>I wouldn't elongate the bolt holes as a temporary movement. Either rivet
>on an aluminum plate to the plate of the VS (flush rivet with head aft)
>and then drill new bolt holes slightly offset from the previous holes. Ask
>Van's about this one as well. This is only a temporary fix to judge the
>new flight attitude.
>
>An easier fix in my opinion is to use the wheelpants to offset the need
>for rudder. If the required rudder is small just adjust the angle the gear
>leg fairing are installed at. They're easy to change since the attachement
>at the top of the gear leg is a simple clamp.
>
>Before starting to tweak anything on your airplane, make sure the
>instrument telling you left rudder is reading perfectly.
>
>How the the rudder on take-off and climb? How much right rudder do you
>require?
>
>Steve
>RV7A
>65 hours
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>>
>> Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
>> this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
>> wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
>> the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the
>> fairings...that
>> way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any
>> turning
>> tendencies.
>>
>> Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
>>
>> The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge
>> is
>> located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I
>> gotta
>> assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
>>
>> Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
>> mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
>> confirm my thinking?
>>
>> I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt
>> holes
>> in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and
>> *then*
>> make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
>>
>> )_( Dan
>> RV-7 N714D
>> http://www.rvproject.com
>>
>>
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 16
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--> RV-List message posted by: DAVAWALKER@aol.com
Charlie, There are # 30 and #40 reamers available that may eliminate some
your concerns.
Dale W. RV-7
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> I received my original RV-3 checkout for insurance purposes in an RV-6
> with the CFI who built it. A really neat situation for us within reach
> of Jefferson City, MO. Ditto for BFR's.
>
Now, that has merit. I may still have to reconsider building a -7A over
a -7.
I could fly Scooter out there and do my tail dragger endorsement in
something I'd be flying next. This note is a keeper.
Jim Sears in KY
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | new RV-7 electrical problem fixed |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Dan C,
I'm waiting for the report on the electrical problem.
Dan H.
RV-7A (almost done)
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I know everyone has been on a drill/deburr/dimple soapbox here lately but
I've got to mention something more serious in my shop this morning. If a
effort to get this thing flying, I used non standard wiring and walmart
electrical connections. Upon firing the electrical system up, I cooked the
Dynon, the 430 and Garmin 327 in addition to melting some of my seat
material. In addition, my smoked canopy is now really, really darker than
standard. What a day!!
Man, I wish I would have stuck to standard building practices and I wouldn't
have had to deal with all this on.....................April 1, 2004. Care
to buy a bridge I have??
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
"'vansairforce'" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
When I bought it the log book showed 1576 SMOH and 350 STOH... TT was in
the neighborhood of 4500 hours...
When I took it apart it had 1738 SMOH and 512 STOH...
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker890@yahoo.com>
<vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes...
I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were on
the core?
Charlie Becker
N464CB RV8A(e)
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: RV-List: engine woes...
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I don't
have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
paperweight for a while...
I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be getting
old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 21
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| Subject: | More on Engine... |
vansairforce <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
Hey all...
I removed the engine from the plane last night and disassembled it... At
least it doesn't look any worse than it did yesterday...
The case and crank look great, to me anyway, but I am going to have it all
looked at my by my engine guru tonight or tomorrow... Hopefully I can get
by with polishing the crank, may have it all balanced at a local shop here
too... New bearings all around, and new cam and tappets... I may have the
case reconditioned too if my A&P deems it necessary... We'll see... It
also looks like I will need a new left mag gear, as the fuel pump drive lobe
on it is pitted pretty bad... Will be checking for any ADs that need to be
done as well...
I have posted a lot more photos on my site:
http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 22
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| Subject: | Sensenich Prop 180 HP and spinner for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: DJB6A@cs.com
I have decided to install a constant speed prop so have a new - never
installed Sensenich Prop plus Sensenich spinner for sale.
I bought it from Van's model 72FM8S9-1 (85)
Spinner is from Sensenich
I am looking sell as a unit; total price of $2100 plus shipping: current cost
is around $2375 plus shipping.
Please reply off list to - djb6a@cs.com or dave@lysine.com
Dave Burnham
RV6A N64FN (res)
Lincolnshire, IL
847-478-0748 home
773-867-0161 work
Message 23
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|
"'vansairforce'" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
The moral to this story, for those still looking for an engine is, don't
buy an engine on it's 3rd or 4th run. By that time, everything that
rotates, slides, or squiggles needs to be replaced.
Can you tell how many hours were on the cam? Was it replaced at the last
OH or just reground?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: Re: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes...
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
When I bought it the log book showed 1576 SMOH and 350 STOH... TT was
in
the neighborhood of 4500 hours...
When I took it apart it had 1738 SMOH and 512 STOH...
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Becker" <ctbecker890@yahoo.com>
<vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [rv8list] RE: RV-List: engine woes...
I'm certainly sorry to hear about your situation. How many hours were
on
the core?
Charlie Becker
N464CB RV8A(e)
Wings
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill VonDane
Subject: RV-List: engine woes...
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
So... I pulled my cylinders off last night to start latest upgrade, and
found two bad lifters and a cam lobe that is about 40% worn off... I
don't
have the $$ right now to fix it, so I guess I'll just have an expensive
paperweight for a while...
I posted some pix on my site, but there kinda blurry... I must be
getting
old, can't hold the damn camera still any more...
http://www.vondane.com/rv8a/upgrades/upgrades2.htm
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
==
==
==
==
Message 24
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Nebr RV-8" <nebrrv8@earthlink.net>
My wife and I will be visiting our daughter in a couple of weeks who is
studying in Canberra Australia. Any Ausi builders in the Sidney or
Canberra? We will be there from Apr 14th thru Apr 22nd.
My daughter says I need to brush up on the slang!!
Thanks,
Jim Muegge
RV-8 Painting
Nebraska, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Keith T Uhls
Subject: RV-List: Land down under
--> RV-List message posted by: Keith T Uhls <keithuhls@juno.com>
Listers,
My father and I are building an RV-7 and my Dad will be spending a month
down in Australia in the Brisbane area, I just wanted to see if there
was anyone he could visit so he could get an RV fix. Drop me an e-mail
off line to contact me.
Keith Uhls
keithuhls@juno.com
RV-7 finish kit (90% done 90 % to go)
N7KU
==
==
==
==
Message 25
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
For those of y'all who have had a good look at Van's newest (appearing in SA
for flying qualities report: passed as expected)
What is the material or technique used instead of the rubber seal at the
wingroot-fuse intersection?
How are the wheelpants attached? Looking at the cover of SA I see small
holes that aren't on the axle centers and the screws joining the halves, but
nothing else- anyone know how they did it?
Thanks!
Mark do not archive
Message 26
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--> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Dana,
How much you want for you bridge Bro? I'm thinking of turnin' it into
my own little paved strip...
Chuck
do not archive any of this April Fool stuff
----- Original Message -----
From: Dana Overall <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: Geez
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>
> I know everyone has been on a drill/deburr/dimple soapbox here lately but
> I've got to mention something more serious in my shop this morning. If a
> effort to get this thing flying, I used non standard wiring and walmart
> electrical connections. Upon firing the electrical system up, I cooked
the
> Dynon, the 430 and Garmin 327 in addition to melting some of my seat
> material. In addition, my smoked canopy is now really, really darker than
> standard. What a day!!
>
> Man, I wish I would have stuck to standard building practices and I
wouldn't
> have had to deal with all this on.....................April 1, 2004. Care
> to buy a bridge I have??
>
>
> Dana Overall
> Richmond, KY i39
> RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
> Finish kit
> 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
> http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
> do not archive
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Tailwheel skills are not very type specific. Get your T/W signoff in
anything that is handy. There is very little negative transfer between
types of light T/W airplanes. There are exotic exceptions of course, Helio
Couriers, Wilgas etc, but for the most part, some have more or less adverse
aileron yaw, some have more or less left turning tendency, but the RVs have
excellent T/W manners and the T/W skills you get in a Citabria, a Pacer, or
a T/W Cessna will serve you very well in the RV.
There is no sin in building and flying an -A model, but there need not be
any fear of a Tailwheel either. Build and fly the one that will make you
happiest.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
>
> Now, that has merit. I may still have to reconsider building a -7A over
> a -7.
> I could fly Scooter out there and do my tail dragger endorsement in
> something I'd be flying next. This note is a keeper.
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> do not archive
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Sorry, been so busy flying this thing! 8-)
I had two problems:
***** Problem #1:
The B&C voltage regulator's low voltage warning circuit was continuously
flashing at me, despite the bus voltage being held at a consistent 14.2
according to the gauge. It appeared that the VR was doing its job. I ran
through B&C's troubleshooting guide, which comes with the VR. Every single
parameter checked out fine.
So I called B&C and told 'em what was happening and they suspected it was a
shorted lamp flasher circuit. Their advice at first was, you're probably
fine, just pull the light out if it's bothering you. Um, no...this is a new
aircraft, I want everything working perfectly. They understood, and told me
to ship the VR back to them and mark it "AOG" (aircraft on ground) to
expedite a repair at their cost.
Meanwhile, I drove over to Spruce and snagged a brand new replacement
regulator, popped it in, fired it up, and everything worked fine. I didn't
change a thing...the low voltage light went out just fine when the
alternator was switched on. So anyway, I'm sending the old one back for
repair, and it'll become my spare when it comes back (or I'll sell it).
***** Problem #2:
The ACS2002 engine monitor screen/CPU died. The symptoms were a brief
period of erroneous readings, and then the screen went black. I spoke to
Rob Hickman, who advised me that there are multiple power supplies (5v, 10v,
etc.) and that one may have burned out...he asked me to check the voltage at
various pins on the analog box. I did that, and everything checked out
perfectly. When the unit was powered on, the screen would go black...you
could see it was doing something...but it wouldn't boot up. Rob suspected
that something burned out in the screen/CPU (I won't even pretend like I
know what anything is in there). So he replaced the screen for me. Rob was
like..."How's the weather down there?" and actually offered to fly the new
screen down that same day (Monday) in his RV-4. Now that's service!!! But
that wasn't necessary...instead he overnighted the new screen to me.
On Tuesday around noon I got the new screen. I installed it, powered it up,
and it came up just fine. Next step was to swap out the clock chip and use
the one from the old unit. The clock chip stores all of your configuration
data (fuel tank calibration, sensor calibrated ranges, logged hobbs/tach
times, etc.). That would have been painful to lose all that. Fortunately,
after swapping the clock chip the thing came right back up with my old
settings. Beautiful!
The cool part is that the ACS2002 actually continued logging data even after
the tish fit the han. I was able to dump it to my PC using Rob's serial PC
software, and in Excel you can see where the funkiness began. Rob is
currently evaluating the data, and I'm shipping the old screen up to him for
a complete dissection. He said this is the first failure he's had.
On Tuesday afternoon, since everything was looking good, I went flying. The
VR and the ACS2002 worked perfectly!!! CHTs were all green (315-330F), oil
temp was a little high (226F), but that's ok for now. I've been using the
ACS2002 to dump data from my flights and graph them. It is too much fun to
go back and look at it after the fact. Trying to remember all the
parameters and trends when flying those first flights is difficult. And
writing everything down when you're busy flying the plane can bee too much.
Nice to be able to click on a graph later to see the parameter values.
http://www.rvproject.com/data/ (warning, those files are pretty big)
Yesterday I made two flights. The first one went perfectly. The second one
I strayed away from the airport and out to the test area ("the box").
Everything was going great until the RPM indication started fluctuating --
upward. It was erratic and displaying as high as 3000 RPM (you can see it
on the graph). I headed straight for home (via the route prescribed by my
op lims).
When I got down I called Rob and he suggested checking the connections at
the RPM sensor that plugs into the mag. I cut off the heat shrink and saw
one wire had broken loose from a fast-on connector. Interesting... So I
crimped on a new connector, and we'll go from there.
I gotta say that despite the big hiccup on the first flight, the ACS2002 is
the coolest thing under the sun. And speaking of sun, it almost seems
*more* readable in direct sunlight. I don't know how that works, but
something cool is happening there to make the colors really stand out.
Support from Advanced Control Systems has been excellent, and it has been a
pleasure dealing with Rob & Ken.
The Dynon is also very sunlight readable. Better than I would have
expected. I'm still building up my trust in it, and I haven't done the
magnetic calibration yet (it desperately needs it). My panel-mounted
compass is all over the place...it's not gonna be a reliable indicator in
that position, but as long as I get the Dynon calibrated accurately then I'm
not worried about it.
The AeroSport engine is running GREAT! CHTs are now down to 290-315, oil
temp has dropped to 195-205, and oil consumption is a little lower than I
would expect for a break-in. Maybe 1/2 quart during these 3.6 hours. Other
than the characteristic "RV popping" on base & final when the throttle is
pulled back (I'm still running full rich, too), it has run strong and
smooth. The Airflow Performance system with the purge valve has made
startup a non-event. The engine is tight, no leaks. I have a tiny leak at
the prop governor...I need to check the nuts to make sure they're tight, and
possibly replace the gasket. That's it!
This is just great fun. The challenges obviously change when you start
flying, and as far as I can tell it's gonna still be a project for a while!
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <Hopperdhh@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: new RV-7 electrical problem fixed
> --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
>
> Dan C,
>
> I'm waiting for the report on the electrical problem.
>
> Dan H.
> RV-7A (almost done)
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back to the early 1940s when swarms of
hurriedly trained employees were turning out thousands of C-47s/DC-3s at
prodigious wartime production rates and see what drilling/deburring tools
and techniques those folks were using? I have trouble believing that every
C-47 rivet hole was carefully drilled and deburred with just the right
6-fluted tool, etc. Yet many of these airplanes are still flying around 60
years later with 30,000 (+) flying hours on them.
The beauty of riveted aluminium construction is that all those
hundreds/thousands of rivets make for a huge network of interlocking stress
paths such that leaving one or two out or (horrors) suffering stress
cracking at a few rivet holes is unlikely to make any appreciable difference
to the strength of the structure. A rule of thumb that I have seen is that
up to 10% of the rivets in a typical structure can simply be left out with
no significant effect on strength. That's completely left out, not poorly
driven or placed in a badly drilled hole, etc.
IMHO, time worrying about the quality of rivet holes would be better spent
looking after spars bolts, control linkages, and fuel systems and other
things that really matter.
Jim Oke
RV-3, TV-6A
Wpg., MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sears" <sears@searnet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
>
> I'm back!!!!
>
> I was going to leave this discussion alone; but, I just can't stand it.
> When we got into the discussion about the debur tools, I just had to step
> back into it. I apologize for keeping this thread alive. :-)
>
> Anyway, now that I've learned that I'm no longer smart enough to build an
> airplane because I challenged the match drilling thing, somebody else has
to
> come in and say that I'm not deburing well, either. I'm devastated!!!
> Alas, my RV was built before Avery offered the newer debur tools. Since I
> buy most of my tools there, I'm sure my holes have the ripples caused by
the
> chatter you speak of. What am I to do, now? Wouldn't these cause
problems
> just as much as not match drilling? Will my RV come apart on me, now?
> Should I ground Scooter and cut him up so nobody can fly him again?
>
> I know. I'm getting foolish. I just couldn't help myself. The truth is,
> I'm sure I'm not the only one who has those little ripples in almost every
> hole like I've drilled in Scooter. I didn't know any better and thought I
> was doing a good job because I made sure I deburred every hole. I'm sure
> that just about any other RV builder of my RV's vintage, or earlier, has
the
> same problems. In fact, it's happening to them, right now! Should we
worry
> about that, as well?
>
> Now, we have at least three problems with every hole we drill, for the
skins
> anyway. If we don't match drill, cracks can run from the holes. If we
> don't have the proper debur tool, cracks can run from the holes. If we
hit
> the dimpler with a hammer,or squeeze it with a squeezer, we're deforming
the
> metal and must weaken the hole. With all of this damage, and the fact
that
> some don't rivet worth a crap, these airplanes are going to be falling
apart
> in short order! It may not be in our lifetimes; but, it's going to
happen!
> I sure don't want to be in one when it does. Maybe I should ground
Scooter,
> right now, and stop building my newest adventure project. Hmmm.
>
> Now, guys. I think we're in the overkill mode, here. Granted, we want to
> do the best job we can do. Based on the fleet of RVs that showed up at
> Dana's fly in at Richmond, KY, we aren't doing half bad. I really don't
> think any of us will need to worry about our airplanes falling apart. If
> there is a problem with the holes, it may show up one rivet at a time. It
> may never show up. Build to the best of your ability and stop worrying
> about a problem that may not exist! Our RVs are so over built that many
> rivets could fail before the airplane does.
>
> Now, I'll quit. I may even go flying. :-)
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter, still flying after four years. No skin cracks)
> RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, tail almost done, awaiting wings.)
> EAA Tech Counselor
> do not archive
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
I have not had any problems getting a BFR in my RV-4. I have rear seat
rudder peddles and no throttle.
I currently have about 300 hours in the plane and I even have a local
instructor volunteer to do a BFR for FREE if I would just take him for a ride in
it.
Rob Hickman
RV-4 N401RH
RV-10 N402RH; S/N: 40204 (Vertical Stab Done!)
Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Overhaul Videos... |
vansairforce <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
Anyone have the Lycoming engine overhaul videos I could borrow?
-Bill VonDane
EAA Tech Counselor
RV-8A ~ N8WV ~ Colorado Springs
www.vondane.com
www.creativair.com
www.epanelbuilder.com
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: engine woes... |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As Tracy Crook was saying:
> (1360 hours of Hmmmm,
So descriptive. :>
-Kysh
--
| 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying |
| CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr |
| 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang |
| Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ |
| KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham |
| Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ |
Message 33
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| Subject: | Training in Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" <don_mei@hotmail.com>
You can do any trainig in an experimental. Provided it has the
equipment/capabilities/specifications necessary for the endorsement/license.
I chose not to do primary training in my RV because for $50/hr, I preferred
to learn how to land in someone elses plane.
I do my BFR's in my RV. Until I got the Dynon, the instrument part of it
was quite challenging. Great fun though. ASI, Altimeter, ROC indicator
and GPS HSI.
One big concern if I wanted to do primary in my RV would be to confirm I was
indemnified by the insurance company. On your BFR, you are PIC, so if you
were insured, you are insured. For primary training you'll need to run your
instructor by and have him added to your insurance.
If Sky Smith is reading this, any wisdom on this topic?
Don
"All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create
the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Another "rule of thumb" I have heard was that one out of every six rivets
could be left out and that RV's have nearly double the number of rivets as
"required" for a minimum structure rating. Take a look at "spam" can rivet
spacing for example. HRII N561FS was drilled, cleco'd, de-burred to smooth
surface on every hole and mating surfaces matched and fitted. If your
talking time or money, "Ya get what you pay for". We didn't have to worry
about the re-drilling punched holes. We had to measure, mark, punch, drill,
countersink, de-burr, assemble and fit every rivet hole. We didn't build a
Swiss watch but we did spend lots of time getting things right and riveting
started only after the items to be riveted had been assembled in a matched,
no stress manner. IMNSHO, non-stressed assembled parts and skins are far
more important then the .001 too large rivet hole that the rivet will expand
and fill anyway. Try this: take a rivet and very slowly squeeze it with your
hand squeezer and watch the rivet expand along its entire length, just like
it does in the drilled hole. 'nuff said.
Do Not Archive. Rebuilding the leaking mechanical fuel pump as per RV/Rocket
list recommendations. Thanks guys/gals for your help and opinions. KABONG
(GBA) 8*)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
A rule of thumb that I have seen is that
up to 10% of the rivets in a typical structure can simply be left out with
no significant effect on strength. That's completely left out, not poorly
driven or placed in a badly drilled hole, etc.
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
John,
As always, you could not be more wrong! By God, my RV-4 came
"pre-punched" and fit together so well I didn't even need a jig to assemble
the fuselage. I just bent the panels, held the bulk heads, and riveted
away. Hecka Doodle... those "Rockets" you guys built are nuthin' but a QB
RV-4; why even the wings just snap together and they're even shorter in
length than the 4 so they don't take but about half as long to rivet.
Judging from your emails, your construction standards are obviously quit
low. And while we're on the subject of lousy craftsmanship.... that piece
o' cr@p radio you sent me doesn't even work!!!
Chuck
Do Not Archive "Happy April First" :-}
P.S. I lost your email address or perhaps you changed it. But "Thank you"
for the challenge. I'll let you know how, or if, I make out on repairing
the portable. And I'll be sendin' you some $ to cover the postage, or beer
for Hanger Flyin'
----- Original Message -----
From: JOHN STARN <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
>
> Another "rule of thumb" I have heard was that one out of every six rivets
> could be left out and that RV's have nearly double the number of rivets as
> "required" for a minimum structure rating. Take a look at "spam" can rivet
> spacing for example. HRII N561FS was drilled, cleco'd, de-burred to smooth
> surface on every hole and mating surfaces matched and fitted. If your
> talking time or money, "Ya get what you pay for". We didn't have to worry
> about the re-drilling punched holes. We had to measure, mark, punch,
drill,
> countersink, de-burr, assemble and fit every rivet hole. We didn't build a
> Swiss watch but we did spend lots of time getting things right and
riveting
> started only after the items to be riveted had been assembled in a
matched,
> no stress manner. IMNSHO, non-stressed assembled parts and skins are far
> more important then the .001 too large rivet hole that the rivet will
expand
> and fill anyway. Try this: take a rivet and very slowly squeeze it with
your
> hand squeezer and watch the rivet expand along its entire length, just
like
> it does in the drilled hole. 'nuff said.
> Do Not Archive. Rebuilding the leaking mechanical fuel pump as per
RV/Rocket
> list recommendations. Thanks guys/gals for your help and opinions.
KABONG
> (GBA) 8*)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke@shaw.ca>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> A rule of thumb that I have seen is that
> up to 10% of the rivets in a typical structure can simply be left out with
> no significant effect on strength. That's completely left out, not poorly
> driven or placed in a badly drilled hole, etc.
>
>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>I have not had any problems getting a BFR in my RV-4. I have rear seat
>rudder peddles and no throttle.
>
>I currently have about 300 hours in the plane and I even have a local
>instructor volunteer to do a BFR for FREE if I would just take him for a
>ride in it.
>
>Rob Hickman
>RV-4 N401RH
>RV-10 N402RH; S/N: 40204 (Vertical Stab Done!)
Good info, Rob. I'll see if I can find that same chief CFI dude and see if
he's up to it. Like the majority of the CFI's at this particular school,
most have never once been in a taildragger, nor have they flown anything
more exciting than a 182, Archer, et al. This particular guy would never
claim he could teach me much of anything specific to flying an RV. I guess
he's just there to make sure I'm not a serious hazard to myself or the
public in general. So much for the "instructional" concept of the flight!
Having fun on the -10? It feels like I'm positively cheating compared to
the -8 kits. Jigs? Who needs 'em!
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
do not archive
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back to the early 1940s when swarms of
>hurriedly trained employees were turning out thousands of C-47s/DC-3s at
>prodigious wartime production rates and see what drilling/deburring tools
>and techniques those folks were using? I have trouble believing that every
>C-47 rivet hole was carefully drilled and deburred with just the right
>6-fluted tool, etc. Yet many of these airplanes are still flying around 60
>years later with 30,000 (+) flying hours on them.
>
>The beauty of riveted aluminium construction is that all those
>hundreds/thousands of rivets make for a huge network of interlocking stress
>paths such that leaving one or two out or (horrors) suffering stress
>cracking at a few rivet holes is unlikely to make any appreciable
>difference
>to the strength of the structure. A rule of thumb that I have seen is that
>up to 10% of the rivets in a typical structure can simply be left out with
>no significant effect on strength. That's completely left out, not poorly
>driven or placed in a badly drilled hole, etc.
>
>IMHO, time worrying about the quality of rivet holes would be better spent
>looking after spars bolts, control linkages, and fuel systems and other
>things that really matter.
>
>Jim Oke
>RV-3, TV-6A
>Wpg., MB
BRAVO, Jim. Couldn't have said it better myself.
I'd say we should slam the door on this topic and get all of our collective
dimply butts back in the shop and BUILD THE PLANES.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
do not archive
Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN
Premium!
Message 38
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Huft" <rv8tor@lazy8.net>
Dana...how much for the bridge?
Does it have a toll booth? I could use the income.
John Huft
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Overall
Subject: RV-List: Geez
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
I know everyone has been on a drill/deburr/dimple soapbox here lately but
I've got to mention something more serious in my shop this morning. If a
effort to get this thing flying, I used non standard wiring and walmart
electrical connections. Upon firing the electrical system up, I cooked the
Dynon, the 430 and Garmin 327 in addition to melting some of my seat
material. In addition, my smoked canopy is now really, really darker than
standard. What a day!!
Man, I wish I would have stuck to standard building practices and I wouldn't
have had to deal with all this on.....................April 1, 2004. Care
to buy a bridge I have??
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
Message 39
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|
| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
WARNING....deleate now..... HUMOR AHEAD.
Vel at leets eye B a no'en dat ya gots vot I cent ya'll. HRII wings abe'en
shorter butt wit da same # of ribs, jest closr ta'gether. Gotta git back to
pump re-build and paint prep. KABONG Please Do Not Archive. 8*) (GBA)
----- Original Message -----
From: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> As always, you could not be more wrong! By God, my RV-4 came
> "pre-punched" and fit together so well I didn't even need a jig to
assemble
> the fuselage. I just bent the panels, held the bulk heads, and riveted
> away. Hecka Doodle... those "Rockets" you guys built are nuthin' but a
QB
> RV-4; why even the wings just snap together and they're even shorter in
> length than the 4 so they don't take but about half as long to rivet.
>
> Judging from your emails, your construction standards are obviously
quit
> low. And while we're on the subject of lousy craftsmanship.... that
piece
> o' cr@p radio you sent me doesn't even work!!!
>
> Chuck
Message 40
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the plans
to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at VANs
and that takes a week to get...)
Ben Cunningham
RV7 finish kit
Message 41
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--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Quick, grab the shop vac. grather in all the smoke and pour it back into the
wires. 4-1-04 KABONG Do Not Archive. (GBA) 8*)
--- Original Message -----
From: "John Huft" <rv8tor@lazy8.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Geez
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Huft" <rv8tor@lazy8.net>
>
> Dana...how much for the bridge?
>
> Does it have a toll booth? I could use the income.
>
> John Huft
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dana Overall
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Geez
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>
> I know everyone has been on a drill/deburr/dimple soapbox here lately but
> I've got to mention something more serious in my shop this morning. If a
> effort to get this thing flying, I used non standard wiring and walmart
> electrical connections. Upon firing the electrical system up, I cooked
the
> Dynon, the 430 and Garmin 327 in addition to melting some of my seat
> material. In addition, my smoked canopy is now really, really darker than
> standard. What a day!!
>
> Man, I wish I would have stuck to standard building practices and I
wouldn't
> have had to deal with all this on.....................April 1, 2004. Care
> to buy a bridge I have??
Message 42
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|
| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
Gee,
If you have a Rocket, the CFIs climb over themselves, to get the chance to
fly in the back. :-)
My first two BFRs, there were no rear throttle or rudder pedals. Besides,
during my BFR, I taught my CFI some acro.
BTW, why does the CFI have to fly the plane at all to teach me anything?
Can't he/she just give me help with the maneuvers as I fly. Isn't the idea
to see if you have forgotten anything or maybe got rusty on a type of
maneuver.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Sears" <sears@searnet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
>
>
> > Local RVrs told me that they had no problem getting their BFR done in a
> RV8
> > as long as it was equipped with the rear seat rudder pedals and throttle
> along
> > with the obvious control stick. That ended up being the only reason I
> > bothered with installing the rear seat rudder pedals.
>
> Golly, gee! Now, I've seen another plus for owning one of the side by
side
> RVs. Mine has rudder pedals, throttle, and second stick as part of the
> normal building sequence. They aren't optional. I just remove the right
> stick for most passengers. I can always drop it in for the CFI. This
list
> really is useful for something. :-)
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts. Awaiting wings.)
> EAA Tech Counselor
> do not archive
>
>
Message 43
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Type in UHMW tape.
At 04:04 PM 4/1/04 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
>
>Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the
>plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at
>VANs and that takes a week to get...)
>
>Ben Cunningham
>RV7 finish kit
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 44
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
McMaster sells it, too. http://www.mcmaster.com They sell different
thicknesses and all that.
)_( Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
Subject: RV-List: UHMW tape
> --> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
>
> Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in
the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it
is at VANs and that takes a week to get...)
>
> Ben Cunningham
> RV7 finish kit
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | RV-10 Building was BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
Brian,
What a difference from building an RV-4!!
The Plans are correct, rivets called out right, no measuring!! I have put the
rivet spacing fan tool in with my wife's Antique collection "Rivet spacer
what's that?". Gone is the fun and dangerous job of cutting the lightening holes
with the fly cutter. I am sure that the RV-10 will be far fewer hours to
finish than the RV-4.
The other advantage I have is that my two sons Jeffrey(13) and Brian(10) are
doing a lot of the work on it. They deburred the complete Vertical stab
including sanding all the edges during spring break. Jeffrey ran the rivet gun
for
a lot of the rivets.
I did have to break it to them that there is no way that it will be done for
Oshkosh this year, although they are still not convinced.
www.hometown.aol.com/robhickman/rv10.html
Rob Hickman
www.advanced-flight-systems.com
RV-4 N401RH
RV-10 N402RH; S/N: 40204 (Vertical Stab Done!)
Do not archive
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Eustace Bowhay" <ebowhay@jetstream.net>
Hi Jim:
I try not to get involved in discussions like this but in the interest of
safety and proper building practices I would like to make the following
comments.
Deburring and edge clean up has been standard practice since aircraft have
been built out of aluminum. The reason for doing this is no mystery , it is
spelled out and explained in many technical publications.
I am currently working on the RV 10 my third RV and I have learned to follow
Van's instructions with some very minor exceptions. In the new RV 10 manual
we are reminded to debur and final drill during every phase. The way I look
at it if we decide not to beburr etc. we are saying that we know more about
this building business than Van himself.
I have known Van for 16 years and as he has proved he is one of the leading
engineers in the business, in addition he is one of the most safety
conscious individuals I have ever met in the aviation business. So when his
manual says deburr and or prime it gets done.
You mention the deburing etc. process as regards the C47 (DC 3), I owned one
that was built in Jan/1944 and flown another 1500 hours give or take that
is parked in your area and have done a lot of hands on maintenance on both
and
everything on them was done to the same standards as Van spells out in his
manuals.
On the question of priming, all the C 47's were primed as well even though
many only had a life of a few hours.
This post is not intended to criticize anyone that has posted on this
subject, but just to encourage all of us RV builders to keep the quality of
workmanship up to the instructions laid down in the manual.
Eustace Bowhay Blind Bay. B.C. RV 10 # 30
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Oke" <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
>
> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back to the early 1940s when swarms
of
> hurriedly trained employees were turning out thousands of C-47s/DC-3s at
> prodigious wartime production rates and see what drilling/deburring tools
> and techniques those folks were using? I have trouble believing that every
> C-47 rivet hole was carefully drilled and deburred with just the right
> 6-fluted tool, etc. Yet many of these airplanes are still flying around 60
> years later with 30,000 (+) flying hours on them.
>
> The beauty of riveted aluminium construction is that all those
> hundreds/thousands of rivets make for a huge network of interlocking
stress
> paths such that leaving one or two out or (horrors) suffering stress
> cracking at a few rivet holes is unlikely to make any appreciable
difference
> to the strength of the structure. A rule of thumb that I have seen is that
> up to 10% of the rivets in a typical structure can simply be left out with
> no significant effect on strength. That's completely left out, not poorly
> driven or placed in a badly drilled hole, etc.
>
> IMHO, time worrying about the quality of rivet holes would be better spent
> looking after spars bolts, control linkages, and fuel systems and other
> things that really matter.
>
> Jim Oke
> RV-3, TV-6A
> Wpg., MB
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Sears" <sears@searnet.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> >
> > I'm back!!!!
> >
> > I was going to leave this discussion alone; but, I just can't stand it.
> > When we got into the discussion about the debur tools, I just had to
step
> > back into it. I apologize for keeping this thread alive. :-)
> >
> > Anyway, now that I've learned that I'm no longer smart enough to build
an
> > airplane because I challenged the match drilling thing, somebody else
has
> to
> > come in and say that I'm not deburing well, either. I'm devastated!!!
> > Alas, my RV was built before Avery offered the newer debur tools. Since
I
> > buy most of my tools there, I'm sure my holes have the ripples caused by
> the
> > chatter you speak of. What am I to do, now? Wouldn't these cause
> problems
> > just as much as not match drilling? Will my RV come apart on me, now?
> > Should I ground Scooter and cut him up so nobody can fly him again?
> >
> > I know. I'm getting foolish. I just couldn't help myself. The truth
is,
> > I'm sure I'm not the only one who has those little ripples in almost
every
> > hole like I've drilled in Scooter. I didn't know any better and thought
I
> > was doing a good job because I made sure I deburred every hole. I'm
sure
> > that just about any other RV builder of my RV's vintage, or earlier, has
> the
> > same problems. In fact, it's happening to them, right now! Should we
> worry
> > about that, as well?
> >
> > Now, we have at least three problems with every hole we drill, for the
> skins
> > anyway. If we don't match drill, cracks can run from the holes. If we
> > don't have the proper debur tool, cracks can run from the holes. If we
> hit
> > the dimpler with a hammer,or squeeze it with a squeezer, we're deforming
> the
> > metal and must weaken the hole. With all of this damage, and the fact
> that
> > some don't rivet worth a crap, these airplanes are going to be falling
> apart
> > in short order! It may not be in our lifetimes; but, it's going to
> happen!
> > I sure don't want to be in one when it does. Maybe I should ground
> Scooter,
> > right now, and stop building my newest adventure project. Hmmm.
> >
> > Now, guys. I think we're in the overkill mode, here. Granted, we want
to
> > do the best job we can do. Based on the fleet of RVs that showed up at
> > Dana's fly in at Richmond, KY, we aren't doing half bad. I really don't
> > think any of us will need to worry about our airplanes falling apart.
If
> > there is a problem with the holes, it may show up one rivet at a time.
It
> > may never show up. Build to the best of your ability and stop worrying
> > about a problem that may not exist! Our RVs are so over built that many
> > rivets could fail before the airplane does.
> >
> > Now, I'll quit. I may even go flying. :-)
> >
> > Jim Sears in KY
> > RV-6A N198JS (Scooter, still flying after four years. No skin cracks)
> > RV-7A #70317 (Cleaning engine parts, tail almost done, awaiting wings.)
> > EAA Tech Counselor
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 47
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg Young" <gyoung@cs-sol.com>
Ditto. My theory is there's this cosmic law called Conservation of Build
Time (kinda like entropy?) that dictates that build time lost from simpler
kits must be spent elsewhere in searching for the perfect rivet hole,
re-tapping tank drain plugs to reduce drag or similar pursuits. Show of
hands now... How many mine-your-own-ore slow builders ever looked at a rivet
hole with a microscope? I thought not;
)
Regards,
Greg Young - Houston (DWH)
RV-6 N6GY ...project Phoenix
Navion N5221K - just an XXL RV-6A
Do not archive
> >
> >IMHO, time worrying about the quality of rivet holes would be better
> >spent looking after spars bolts, control linkages, and fuel
> systems and
> >other things that really matter.
> >
> >Jim Oke
> >RV-3, TV-6A
> >Wpg., MB
>
>
> BRAVO, Jim. Couldn't have said it better myself.
>
> I'd say we should slam the door on this topic and get all of
> our collective
> dimply butts back in the shop and BUILD THE PLANES.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
>
> do not archive
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> Wouldn't it be nice to be able to go back to the early 1940s
> when swarms of hurriedly trained employees were turning out
> thousands of C-47s/DC-3s at prodigious wartime production
> rates and see what drilling/deburring tools and techniques
> those folks were using? I have trouble believing that every
> C-47 rivet hole was carefully drilled and deburred with just
> the right 6-fluted tool, etc. Yet many of these airplanes are
> still flying around 60 years later with 30,000 (+) flying
> hours on them.
Interesting that you mentioned DC3's. My dad told me that in the 50's
and 60's, when he would occasionally fly DC3's, he would notice stop
drilled cracks everywhere on those planes. And those planes are much
older now...
It is all about probability. Cracks will occur on all airplanes, the
question is how often and how soon. Proper techniques won't eliminate
them, just reduce the number and/or delay their onset.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 447 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 49
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
>
>Quick, grab the shop vac. grather in all the smoke and pour it back into
>the
>wires. 4-1-04 KABONG Do Not Archive. (GBA) 8*)
Good idea but I think a better one is to use 12/3 instead of 12/2.
Just thought I'd add a little humor to the list after the
drill/deburr/dimple exchange. Just having a little fun on 4/1/04.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Hyde" <nauga@brick.net>
> I received my original RV-3 checkout for insurance purposes
> in an RV-6 with the CFI who built it. A really neat situation
> for us within reach of Jefferson City, MO. Ditto for BFR's
I got a checkout from the same guy. I've since heard that
he's no longer instructing in his own RV. I have this nagging
feeling the two might be related.
Dave Hyde
RV-4 in flight test
nauga@brick.net
Message 51
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
benandginny@insightbb.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
>
> Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in the plans
to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it is at VANs
and that takes a week to get...)
>
> Ben Cunningham
> RV7 finish kit
Get hold of Stien Burch on this website and you can have it in about a couple of
days at about half the cost of Vans...
Phil.....
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Dielectric grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture" <commando@cox-internet.com>
I believe the grease your talking about is used mainly on transistors
for heat transfer to the heat sink it's attached to. Usually it is used in
conjunction with some sort of dielectric between the transistor and the heat
sink for electrical isolation.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>
> Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications because of
> it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity. Does
it
> provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me for
> years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in the
> archives.
>
> Thanks to those more knowledeable than me.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, RV-3B
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
Dan,
Don't forget that the power setting changes the amount of rudder that's
needed so when you do get it trimmed, that setting will only be good for
one particular power setting. That's why some airplanes have adjustable
rudder trim.
Dave
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>Well, I'm steadily flying off my 25 hours, and after 3.6, I can say that
>this plane needs 1/2 ball of LEFT rudder in cruise. I'm operating without
>wheel pants and without leg fairings. My philosophy is that I want to get
>the airplane perfectly trimmed up hands-off before I add the fairings...that
>way I'll know if the fairings are straight and are not imparting any turning
>tendencies.
>
>Ok, back to this need for left rudder...
>
>The RV-7 has a built-in VS offset as per the plans -- the VS leading edge is
>located approximately 1/4" to the left of the aircraft centerline. I gotta
>assume that this offset is what's causing the need for left rudder.
>
>Before I go drilling out rivets and making a new VS front spar to HS
>mounting plate, tweaking the intersection fairing, etc., can somebody
>confirm my thinking?
>
>I don't want to overshoot, though -- part of me wants to slot the bolt holes
>in the plate at first, get the VS dialed in where it needs to be, and *then*
>make the permanent plate. Bad idea to slot those bolt holes?
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
>
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ronnie Brown" <romott@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
> Your instructor should at least 5 hours in that plane before he
> teaches in it. Then its ok. That is what I have found out so far. But
> the problem for anyone wanting to do this is finding an instructor who
> will use your plane. Also remember your plane has to have the 40 hours
> on it before 2 people can go up in it.
I'm not sure where the 5 hour requirement came from.
I just got a BFR in my Velocity from a CFI who had never flown in a canard, let
alone a Velocity. I taught him about Velocities while he gave me a very thorough
BFR, including reading sectionals, airspace rules, runway incursion (from
AOPA), stalls, instrument flight, a practice instrument approach, emergency engine
out, recovery from unusual attitudes, etc. He thoroughly enjoyed the Velocity
and I got a great BFR.
I have a friend who is getting his instrument rating instruction in his Europa
from his CFII. There are some DE's who will give the check ride in a homebuilt.
I think it is mostly a matter of the individual CFI/CFII and what he/she is willing
or unwilling to do. (Some folks still don't think homebuilts are safe!!!)
I'm amazed that the CFI building a RV8 refused to give a BFR to a fellow RV'er????
Keep looking.
Ronnie Brown
Velocity 173 Elite RG
Message 55
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--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
So if I pay to put a Ney nozzle in my Dynon dongle then my crack won't get
stressed?
cool
do not archive
Message 56
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
I've got it in stock, any length you want, and cheaper than both Van's and McMaster
Carr.
see: http://www.steinair.com
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
Do Not Archive
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>McMaster sells it, too. http://www.mcmaster.com They sell different
>thicknesses and all that.
>
>)_( Dan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: UHMW tape
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
>>
>> Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in
>the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find it
>is at VANs and that takes a week to get...)
>>
>> Ben Cunningham
>> RV7 finish kit
>>
>>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Dielectric grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "J. R. Dial" <jrdial@hal-pc.org>
Dielectric grease has a high resistance to conducting electric
current and would be considered and insulator. It is used for heat sink
grease among other things and the common kind is a silicon product.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Wayne R.
Couture
Subject: Re: RV-List: Dielectric grease
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne R. Couture"
<commando@cox-internet.com>
I believe the grease your talking about is used mainly on
transistors
for heat transfer to the heat sink it's attached to. Usually it is used
in
conjunction with some sort of dielectric between the transistor and the
heat
sink for electrical isolation.
Wayne
----- Original Message -----
From: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Subject: RV-List: Dielectric grease
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>
> Trivia question: dielectric grease is used in some applications
because of
> it's special properties with regard to how it conducts electricity.
Does
it
> provide better conductivity, or does it insulate? This has bothered me
for
> years and I need to know, plus it's probably a good thing to have in
the
> archives.
>
> Thanks to those more knowledeable than me.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-8, RV-3B
>
>
==
==
==
==
Message 58
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Wheeler,
I think you got it, However, if the Ney nozzles are not aimed right they
will lube the crack and then you might run the risk of becoming someone
else's "Daisy" Now that might be cool or not cool depending on just what
being someone's "Daisy" means??!!
What ever became of the research that was proposed to discover the meaning
of the phrase "being someone's Daisy"? Could it be that the people looking
for that answer got sidetracked looking for cracks in their punched,
drilled, de-burred and dimpled holes??!!! {[;-)!
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Wheeler North" <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Subject: RV-List: stress
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
> So if I pay to put a Ney nozzle in my Dynon dongle then my crack won't get
> stressed?
>
> cool
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 59
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--> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
Thanks Everyone,
I'll try Mcmaster or Steinair
Ben Cunningham
RV7 finish kit
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: UHMW tape
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
>
> I've got it in stock, any length you want, and cheaper than both Van's and
McMaster Carr.
>
> see: http://www.steinair.com
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
>
> Do Not Archive
>
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 14:01:16 -0800
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> >
> >McMaster sells it, too. http://www.mcmaster.com They sell different
> >thicknesses and all that.
> >
> >)_( Dan
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: RV-List: UHMW tape
> >
> >
> >> --> RV-List message posted by: <benandginny@insightbb.com>
> >>
> >> Can anyone recommend an equivalent product to "UHMW tape" called for in
> >the plans to use on the Canopy Latch handle? (The only place I can find
it
> >is at VANs and that takes a week to get...)
> >>
> >> Ben Cunningham
> >> RV7 finish kit
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 60
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| Subject: | new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Dan,
A local "4-peater" (RV6, RV6A, RV8A, RV7A) recently discovered that he
needed a little left rudder as well. His philosophy is "put a rivet in every
hole and the airplane is gonna be a straight as you need to worry about". So
he did NOT make any changes other than taking the "rudder trim" from EPM.AV
( http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ ) that I had bought, sticking it on and
flying. He says it flies straight now at cruise configuration (all fairings
installed).
You may in fact introduce a LOT more errors by changing the offset,
especially BEFORE all the fairings are on and locked down.
Just an opinion.
James
Message 61
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| Subject: | BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
It is really up to the instructor. Most instructors, if they don't know you
well, will want full controls at their access just in case. During a BFR
they are, technically, the PIC if an accident should happen. It really
comes down to the question of whether or not a BFR is a check or
instructional. If you go with the instructional mode then the regs say that
the CFI must have full access to the controls at all times.
Mike R.
>From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 05:40:49 +0000
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
> >The bottom line answer is that "yes" you can. As far as the FARs go this
> >is
> >a case of not what the regs say but of not what they say. The regs do
>not
> >say anything about a restriction on which category of aircraft you use to
> >get a rating or BFR as long as the yeqrly (annual) condition inspection
>is
> >done and there are no discrepancies on the aircraft. This is all covered
> >by
> >FAR Part 91.
> >
> >Mike Robertson
> >Das Fed
>
>Mike,
>
>I'm currently dealing with this issue. I'm due for my BFR. I asked a
>local
>CFI/RV8 builder, who has flown with me a few times before, to do the review
>for me. He respectfully declined, saying the flight was supposed to be
>"instructional" in nature. My RV8 does not have back seat controls except
>for the stick. So, he could not "teach" me anything requiring his input on
>the controls.
>
>My last BFR was done by the local flight school chief instructor. He was
>more than willing to do it. First time RV flight for him! He never once
>expressed any concern about the specific requirements of the flight, the
>airplane, or any other issue. We flew, we talked for an hour on the
>ground,
>and he signed me off.
>
>So, is the first guy right, or the second guy? Time to rent spam and just
>get it over with?
>
>Brian Denk
>RV8 N94BD
>RV10 '51
>
>
Message 62
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| Subject: | Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
Too many experts and not enough pragmatism.
Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a problem
here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a quick
spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these specs.
Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr and
dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as twice
the allowed tolerance.
You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years so it
works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better, i.e.
the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the recommended rivet
size is more likely to work. I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like
this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans considered
it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them.
Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures
is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are
left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he has
ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs. Look
at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but definitely
ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and deburring.
"If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a
chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round smooth
hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit."
If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium monocoque
planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many
of us have been alive . He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably
all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any suggestions
from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging
these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers.
Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole without match
drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own self,
face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go ahead
&punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his *only*
answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they
preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now."
I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had experimented with
this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true
but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane they
were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him.
Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers dangerous for
example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He is also
notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on this
topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our theorists
believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why.
There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole condition,
size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and riveting punched
holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen
in aircraft riveted together without match drilling. There is a lot of theory
flying around and virtually no practical examples. We are very unlikely to
get much information either, when we pillory the pioneers. The list punishes
non conformists and unfortunately some listers become nasty about opinions that
conflict with their own. This is NOT conducive to getting useful practical
information.
Let's be conservative or daring(reckless?) as we choose but let's learn something
from this. It's just barely possible that the theorists are overestimating
the dangers and that our pioneers can contribute something valuable. Make your
own decision on what you can sift from the differing opinions and contradictory
fact and build accordingly. It's just barely possible the pioneers are correct
and that this is an issue the majority are being overly anal about. If
so building our next project may get even easier.
Rob
Rob W M Shipley
N919RV (res) Fuselage .....still! (Nomex most definitely on!)
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Mike Robertson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>
>It is really up to the instructor. Most instructors, if they don't know you
>well, will want full controls at their access just in case. During a BFR
>they are, technically, the PIC if an accident should happen. It really
>comes down to the question of whether or not a BFR is a check or
>instructional. If you go with the instructional mode then the regs say that
>the CFI must have full access to the controls at all times.
>
>Mike R.
>
>
>
>
Hi Mike,
I have been led to believe that Flight Reviews are considered
instructional all the time and full access to controls are
required as you say above. Under what circumstances could a Flight
Review be considered anything different?
Also I have a question about your statement that technically an
instructor is PIC. I believe that if the pilot is
current and an agreement is made ahead of time that the pilot is PIC
then the instructor is not automatically
considered PIC. This would seem to be backed up by the fact that an
instructor can still give Flight Reviews
without a valid medical IF the Flight Review receiving pilot is still
current. This would mean that the instructor
could not be PIC because he does not have a medical.
Looks like it is going to be a good weekend Probably see you around the
airport or at Twin Oaks breakfast
Saturday morning.
Jerry
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
All,
Mr Brown is correct, there is no requirement for any time in type in a
single engine airplane, nor does there need to be. A BFR is a review, not a
checkout. If a checkout is required, then the CFI should have, or should
get, some experience in the specific aircraft.
For a BFR, this is not rocket science here folks, if you check the final for
traffic, make sure you know what taxiway/runway you are on, put the wheels
down before you land, can read the charts, know your airspace ABC's, and
don't put the flaps up till you are stopped on the taxiway, you get a pass.
It is assumed that you can land and take-off in the airplane. If you have
trouble with that, then you need a checkout, not a BFR.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
Ask your insurance agent......
No Not Archive
>From: "Ronnie Brown" <romott@adelphia.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 19:09:21 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ronnie Brown" <romott@adelphia.net>
>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Ray" <brett@hog-air.com>
>
> > Your instructor should at least 5 hours in that plane before he
> > teaches in it. Then its ok. That is what I have found out so far. But
> > the problem for anyone wanting to do this is finding an instructor who
> > will use your plane. Also remember your plane has to have the 40 hours
> > on it before 2 people can go up in it.
>
>
>I'm not sure where the 5 hour requirement came from.
>
>I just got a BFR in my Velocity from a CFI who had never flown in a canard,
>let alone a Velocity. I taught him about Velocities while he gave me a
>very thorough BFR, including reading sectionals, airspace rules, runway
>incursion (from AOPA), stalls, instrument flight, a practice instrument
>approach, emergency engine out, recovery from unusual attitudes, etc. He
>thoroughly enjoyed the Velocity and I got a great BFR.
>
>I have a friend who is getting his instrument rating instruction in his
>Europa from his CFII. There are some DE's who will give the check ride in
>a homebuilt.
>
>I think it is mostly a matter of the individual CFI/CFII and what he/she is
>willing or unwilling to do. (Some folks still don't think homebuilts are
>safe!!!) I'm amazed that the CFI building a RV8 refused to give a BFR to a
>fellow RV'er???? Keep looking.
>
>Ronnie Brown
>Velocity 173 Elite RG
>
>
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: BFR and Training in an Experimental |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
What you say is mostly true, but it remains up to the instructor as to what
level the "instructional" mode takes.
What you say about the CFI and a medical is also true as we know that we log
PIC time even with the CFI on board unless it is for instruction in
something we are not rated for. But if an accident happens the CFI is still
going to be held accountable whether or not he has a current medical. It
all gets very gray in that area.
Mike R.
>From: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: BFR and Training in an Experimental
>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 20:15:13 -0800
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
>Mike Robertson wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
> >
> >It is really up to the instructor. Most instructors, if they don't know
>you
> >well, will want full controls at their access just in case. During a BFR
> >they are, technically, the PIC if an accident should happen. It really
> >comes down to the question of whether or not a BFR is a check or
> >instructional. If you go with the instructional mode then the regs say
>that
> >the CFI must have full access to the controls at all times.
> >
> >Mike R.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>Hi Mike,
>I have been led to believe that Flight Reviews are considered
>instructional all the time and full access to controls are
>required as you say above. Under what circumstances could a Flight
>Review be considered anything different?
>Also I have a question about your statement that technically an
>instructor is PIC. I believe that if the pilot is
>current and an agreement is made ahead of time that the pilot is PIC
>then the instructor is not automatically
>considered PIC. This would seem to be backed up by the fact that an
>instructor can still give Flight Reviews
>without a valid medical IF the Flight Review receiving pilot is still
>current. This would mean that the instructor
>could not be PIC because he does not have a medical.
>
>Looks like it is going to be a good weekend Probably see you around the
>airport or at Twin Oaks breakfast
>Saturday morning.
>
>Jerry
>
>
Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> ... We are very unlikely to get much information either, when we pillory the
pioneers. The list punishes non conformists and unfortunately some listers become
nasty about opinions that conflict with their own. This is NOT conducive
to getting useful practical information.
I'm reminded of one of my favorite quotes:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
--George Bernard Shaw
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I appreciate the replies. What most people don't seem to be acknowledging
is that while trimming gets the plane to fly straight, there's a cost
associated. Any rudder deflection at all means drag is being induced.
Nothing beats a control surface that is perfectly in trail, at least as far
as efficiency goes. The same concept holds true with elevator trim and the
HS. You hear about people shimming the HS to remove any elevator deflection
& elevator trim deflection at cruise. That's to reduce drag to the minimal
possible amount. A tiny change in HS incidence can result in a major change
in required elevator/trim deflection...there's speed to be gained.
I'll use a trim wedge for now, and I'll play with the fairings before doing
anything permanent...but I ultimately hope to remove all traces of control
surface deflection at max cruise speed by tweaking the incidence of the
stabilizers. Admittedly this will be at one indicated airspeed at one power
setting...but I'll optimize it for what I intend to use most commonly.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: new RV-7 needs left rudder in cruise
> --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
>
> Dan,
>
> A local "4-peater" (RV6, RV6A, RV8A, RV7A) recently discovered that he
> needed a little left rudder as well. His philosophy is "put a rivet in
every
> hole and the airplane is gonna be a straight as you need to worry about".
So
> he did NOT make any changes other than taking the "rudder trim" from
EPM.AV
> ( http://www.epm-avcorp.com/ ) that I had bought, sticking it on and
> flying. He says it flies straight now at cruise configuration (all
fairings
> installed).
>
> You may in fact introduce a LOT more errors by changing the offset,
> especially BEFORE all the fairings are on and locked down.
>
> Just an opinion.
>
> James
>
>
Message 69
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| Subject: | swivel air adaptors |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Cours <rv-j@moriarti.org>
Hi, everyone -
I have a newbie question that's totally unrelated to drilling, dimpling,
deburring, FAA regulations, or choice of primer. It's about swivel
adaptors for air hoses.
My (rather young) swivel adaptor has started leaking. Not just little
leaks, but a nice constant spray that would be useful for clearing
aluminum chips off the work bench if it weren't happening all the time.
While there's something tragically heroic in my compressor's futile
attempt to pressurize the garage, it's starting to get a bit annoying,
not to mention noisy. I've already tried replacing the teflon tape and
have determined, through careful experimentation (i.e. I stuck the thing
next to my face and felt the direction of the air) that it's coming from
one of the swivel joints in the adaptor itself, not the spots where it
attaches to the hose or the quick-connect.
So here's my question: should I be looking for a new adaptor, or is it
simply in the nature of swivel adaptors to leak?
thanks,
Jeff
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