Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? (Jim Jewell)
2. 02:55 AM - Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? (Jim Sears)
3. 03:34 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Jim Sears)
4. 05:15 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Alex Peterson)
5. 05:24 AM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Ollie Washburn)
6. 06:37 AM - Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Hal / Carol Kempthorne)
7. 07:33 AM - Re: Dynon OAT Probe (Lockamy, Jack L)
8. 07:36 AM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Donald Mei)
9. 09:35 AM - Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Dave)
10. 10:06 AM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Scott Bilinski)
11. 10:10 AM - Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff (Paul Besing)
12. 10:40 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Michael McGee)
13. 11:00 AM - stupid whining complaint (Jeff Dowling)
14. 11:18 AM - Was - Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? ...Now RV-15 "the Jet" (C. Rabaut)
15. 11:22 AM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Stein Bruch)
16. 11:40 AM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Richard Tasker)
17. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Bob U.)
18. 12:34 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Michael McGee)
19. 01:14 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (JOHN STARN)
20. 01:22 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Charlie & Tupper England)
21. 01:23 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
22. 01:27 PM - Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Frederick Oldenburg)
23. 01:36 PM - trim tab position (glennpaulwilkinson)
24. 01:37 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Dj Merrill)
25. 02:08 PM - FAA Good Guy (John)
26. 02:17 PM - >> Re: Stupid Whining Complaint (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
27. 02:46 PM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Matthew Brandes)
28. 02:56 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
29. 03:00 PM - Re: trim tab position (Scott Bilinski)
30. 03:10 PM - Neat Airport Web Site (Crosley, Rich)
31. 03:58 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Kysh)
32. 04:31 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Alex Peterson)
33. 04:48 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Scott.Fink@microchip.com)
34. 05:09 PM - Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
35. 05:22 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot (linn walters)
36. 05:31 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Dj Merrill)
37. 05:39 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Jim Anglin)
38. 05:59 PM - Re: trim tab position (William Davis)
39. 06:25 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Bill Dube)
40. 06:47 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG))
41. 06:53 PM - Re: Most efficient climb (Kevin Horton)
42. 06:54 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG))
43. 06:59 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (RVEIGHTA@aol.com)
44. 07:07 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (John D. Heath)
45. 07:08 PM - Re: trim tab position (RVEIGHTA@aol.com)
46. 07:39 PM - >Re:Trim Tab Position (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
47. 08:04 PM - Re: FAA Good Guy (smoothweasel@juno.com)
48. 08:22 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
49. 08:25 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (G B)
50. 08:30 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Jerry Springer)
51. 08:50 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
52. 08:52 PM - Re: trim tab position (Larry Bowen)
53. 09:30 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Stein Bruch)
54. 09:46 PM - Catto Props (HCRV6@aol.com)
55. 11:28 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Jim and Bev Cone)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched |
holes - ?
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Thanks Rob for forwarding Scott McDaniels email.
Ah! that familiar voice!!
I can only hope that Scott's description of information, ideas, and
experiences put the "finish drill / Deburr Pre-Punched holes dimple thread
to bed at least for this go around.
I am sure I am not alone in stating; Scott McDaniels input on this list is
sourly missed by a good many of us RV listers if not the vast majority. Of
course the newer arrivals to the RV community might not recognize the name
due to his not exactly recent absence.
For the newer people on the list entering the name < Scott McDaniels > into
the search engine of the archives will provide the view from the eye what
had been a kind of unofficial liaison with the Van's insiders and a wealth
of answers to a long list of questions, many of which I expect will still be
relevant.
Thank you Scott McDaniels where ever you are!! {[:-)
Thanks again Rob
Jim in Kelowna Content repeated do not archive
---- Original Message -----
From: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
Subject: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr
Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
>
>
> Everyone please note that Scott McDaniels has gone to the trouble to give
us an unofficial Van's view of this topic and afford him a courteous
reception - unless you wish to ensure that he won't contribute again.
>
> I received this directly from Scott today.
> Subject: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>
>
> Hi Rob,
> I am not currently a subscriber on the list but I do cruise the archives
on occasion to see what the latest hot topic is.
> I saw yours and thought I would take a moment to reply, but I didn't even
have time to read the other responses so sorry if this is some what
redundant.
> I also am not sure how much of the below is yours or if some is pasted in
but I will answer some of the questions to hopefully finally put to bed
some of the confusion and miss information about what has been done in the
past at Van's in regards to assembling without drilling.
>
> I work in the proto shop at Vans and have been there about 8 years, so I
have been involved in the evolution to the current level of P.P. holes in
all of the kits.
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
>
> >Too many experts and not enough pragmatism.
>
> >Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a
problem
> here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a
quick
> spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these
specs.
>
> Regardless of what the specs are, if you build to the recommendations in
the manual then you are building to the same standard
> as was used to build test items that were static loaded to verify that the
structures met the loads that they were designed too.
> If you feel better starting with a hole size that is a few thousandths
smaller then go for it. I don't think any one at Van's has a problem with
that as long as you are using dimple dies that have a pilot that is not
stretching the holes when you insert it (the pilot is a clearance fit to the
hole).
>
> >Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr
and
> dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as
twice
> the allowed tolerance.
>
> See my response above... all the testing was done with parts constructed
this way.
> If you do not feel good about it the use a smaller hole.
>
> >You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years
so it
> works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better,
i.e.
> the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the
recommended rivet
> size is more likely to work.
>
> This has nothing to do with recommended rivet size. They are spec.ed by
what we
> used that did work when building the proto parts. Some times sizes are
called out wrong
> (we're not perfect) but it is surely not because the hole is a few
thousandths bigger than a Mil. spec calls for.
>
> > I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like
> this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans
considered
> it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them.
>
> And I have no problem with it either unless you are using dimple dies with
a pilot that doesn't fit the hole. I do have a problem with Not final
sizing the hole from what is punched, but just slamming dimple dies into
them.
>
> >Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate
metal failures
> is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are
> left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he
has
> ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs.
Look
> at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but
definitely
> ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and
deburring.
> "If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a
> chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round
smooth
> hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit."
> If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium
monocoque
> planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many
> of us have been alive .
>
> How many of those airplanes are 100% flush riveted on the exterior? Not
many. When you dimple, you are stretching the material. If you had to
force the dimple pilot into the hole before dimpling you stretched it even
more. Now if all of this was done on holes that had never been up sized,
you have a strong potential for cracking. The punching process leaves a
hole edge condition that is the same as a sheared edge on a skin at best.
Some times it is worse because of a punch tool that is getting slightly dull
or has a little more clearance that when it was new.
> It is for this reason that it is recommended in the manual that the holes
be final sized. True, it may not a perfect hole but that is ok. That is
what made riveted construction of aircraft so desirable.
>
> >He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably
> all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any
suggestions
> from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging
> these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers.
>
> Not true! Builders are told to deburr the edges of all parts (this would
include lightening holes).
> In our shop we use a small scotch bright wheel in a die grinder to
deburr/smooth all lightening holes and we assume builders are doing similar.
>
> >Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole
without match
> drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own
self,
> face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go
ahead
> &punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his
*only*
> answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they
> preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now."
>
> I think you are reading more into this than you should. That in no way
means that we would punch them full size if we were confident that the would
all line up properly.
>
> >I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had
experimented with
> this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true
> but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane
they
> were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him.
>
> There was never an "Experiment". It was a time saving short cut only when
building structures that we were using for static testing. It was mentioned
in an RVator only to describe how well the pre punch design work was going
and to describe how well the parts fit. It was never intended to present a
process that should be used to assemble the kit.
> We have never done this on any structures that we intended to fly. The
cracking issue is related to the life of the structure with thousands of
load cycles. The structures we did this on only had to last through 1 or 2
load cycles.
>
> >Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers
dangerous for
> example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He
is also
> notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on
this
> topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our
theorists
> believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why.
>
> >There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole
condition,
> size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and
riveting punched
> holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen
> in aircraft riveted together without match drilling
>
> Lets see... I have not seen a large campaign calling for an outsider
evaluation of the wing engineering on any of the RV models, do builders
acccept on blind faith that the wings are designed properly but they will
not acccept it when the manual suggests that they final size all of the
holes before dimpling?
>
> In my opinion, the absolute bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or
probably anywhere else can tell you with absolute certainty that you will or
will not have cracking problems on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. We have
no experience or data to prove it one way or the other. This is something
that would not likely happen right away. There are probably RV's now flying
that were build without drilling. The owner/builders may even be preaching
to everyone that "They haven't had any problems". That information of no
value. Tell us after the airplane is 10 years old.
> I doubt very much that if Van's endorsed skipping the drilling, and 10
years from now a bunch of RV's started to have cracking problems, I doubt
those owners would consider it much a consolation for Van's to say "Sorry, I
guess we were wrong. From now on we recommend builders don't do that any
more".
> So, If anyone is willing to experiment, and take a chance, to save maybe
20 hours of work ( a very small amount considering the total number of hours
most builders expend) on the construction of there RV , then go for it.
Just realize that no mater how many experts you talk to, or how many other
builders have already done it, only time will tell wether you made the right
decision.
>
> I hope at least some of this is of some value but I have to close with the
standard disclaimer dribble...
> This is my own personal opinion and does not necessarily match the
policy's or opinions of my employer.
>
> P.S. feel free to share this as you wish, as long as you promise to
refrain from flaming me without a chance to respond since I'm not on the
list :-)
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched |
holes - ?
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> Thanks Rob for forwarding Scott McDaniels email.
You betcha!!! I was just talking about him the other day and how we've
lost some good contributors to the list because of flaming. He was one of
those who contributed often and was flamed one too many times. Like most
good contributors who have left, he didn't need to be on the list and didn't
need the flaming he got too often. Like too many others, he left.
> Ah! that familiar voice!!
> I can only hope that Scott's description of information, ideas, and
> experiences put the "finish drill / Deburr Pre-Punched holes dimple
thread
> to bed at least for this go around.
It will return unless Van's makes the decision to change the manual to
better reflect the reasons for doing the match drilling. Doing it on the
RV-list is good for our debate; but, it really needs to be in the manual.
Make it an issue before that first piece is drilled or not drilled. Look at
primers. They did put some brief info there about that. Primers has been
one of our better issues in the past. If the manual talks about drilling in
the same manner Scott approached it, there may be a little twinge of doubt
in not doing it so that the builder will just go ahead and do it. It could
be a simple insert into the manual so that the manual doesn't have to be
changed. Just saying it's for parts alignment is not enough if there really
is another issue.
> I am sure I am not alone in stating; Scott McDaniels input on this list is
> sourly missed by a good many of us RV listers if not the vast majority. Of
> course the newer arrivals to the RV community might not recognize the name
> due to his not exactly recent absence.
And, hopefully those who caused him to leave have also left. :-)
We can't very well learn from others unless those others are allowed to stay
without being abused by those who feel their way is the only way. All that
does is cause enough friction that the more talented in the discussion just
say to heck with it and get off the list. I'm sure Scott had more to do
than just hold our hands. Don't get me wrong. Debate is good as long as
it's done tactfully. However, we have a history of having it go sour and
causing contributors to leave. The discussion we had last week went sour
just because I was challenging the issue to learn more so that I could
better reflect those ideas to others. I got flamed one more time. I
haven't left because I'm too darned stubborn. Besides, I need help, as
well. When I asked for help on my manuals, I was rewarded very nicely and
really appreciate that. Those responders did not have to take their time to
help me; but, they did. That's what this list is all about. Some never
seem to grasp that.
> For the newer people on the list entering the name < Scott McDaniels >
into
> the search engine of the archives will provide the view from the eye what
> had been a kind of unofficial liaison with the Van's insiders and a wealth
> of answers to a long list of questions, many of which I expect will still
be
> relevant.
I'll bet many of his answers were passed by those powers to be at Van's. I
always found his answers to be rational and to the point. Not so for many
of the other listers who would respond and flame him for not having the same
opinion they had. Not good.
> Thank you Scott McDaniels where ever you are!! {[:-)
>
> Thanks again Rob
Yes, thanks to both of you. Rob, see if you can convince Scott to get back
on the RV-list in the general RV section so that we can learn from the guys
at the source. Otherwise, we only speculate on what the thinking is at
Van's. It's good to have someone on the list who is in the know about what
the thinking is there.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Most efficient climb |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears <sears@searnet.com>
> On this question of what is the best climb rate, it should also be a
concern
> that we are flying in a system where others are flying other, and
opposite,
> headings according to the hemispheric rule. If we climb more slowly, we
are
> spending more time is the other pilot's air space regarding altitude.
This may be a minor point unless one is flying around a high density area.
I'm sure Indiana is very much like Kentucky in that one has ample flying
space. If one is worried about the other traffic, one might want to
consider flight following, etc,. to be more aware of other traffic during
the climb out or decent while enroute.
> Van wrote an article about this several years ago; I think it was in the
> RVator. My flaky memory is telling me that he mentioned something around
> 120 mph instead of the expected ~90 mph. The idea was that the low
> aspect ratio wing causes (induced?) drag to go up more when you get down
> in the 90 mph range. He pointed out that if you climb at calculated
> 'best climb' using traditional techniques (1.? x stall), then try the
> same throttle setting but climb at ~120 mph, you will see the same
> *rate* of climb but will cover a lot more territory on the way to cruise
> altitude.
I've found that Scooter climbs out very well at 120kts. That means I've got
the nose down a tad more than Van recommends. I can see over the nose, get
a decent climb rate that won't burst anyone's ear drums, and get the added
benefit of not overheating the engine. It also puts me closer to my
destination during the climb out.
When going places with my friends, they tend to climb faster than I and are
awed by my being out in front of them so fast when I'm the last one to take
off. Well, part of it is because I'm not going up as fast as I'm going
forward. I just smile as I pass each of them as they climb for the heavens;
and, I get to the destination first. Of course, having the fastest airplane
with the least available power adds to the insult. :-)
I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up significantly.
I'm not really sure about this and may be totally wrong; but, I also get the
notion that when I put Scooter in a high rate of climb, more oil goes out
the crankcase vent. It just seems that every time I do it, I see more oil
on the bottom of the fuselage. I see no sense in abusing the engine; so, I
climb out at a more comfortable attitude and let things work better for
Scooter and me. If I don't, Scooter costs me more to operate by having me
replace engine pieces and parts. I prefer to not do that.
Let me give one example of it's being good to have that nose down. One day,
I was climbing out from an airport in central KY to return to home base. I
was talking with another pilot who was approaching the airport from the
opposite direction. Little did I know that we were on a collision course
with each other at a pretty good pace. He was flying a Malibu and wasn't
slouching along. Fortunately, it was a clear day; and, I saw him in time to
deviate a little so we wouldn't hit each other. Had I been doing an
excellerated climb out, I'd have never seen him. Of course, one could argue
that I might not have been as low, either; but, I'd much rather have that
nose down so I can see ahead. That day, it worked for me. Remember, a good
portion of mid-air accidents happen around airports on clear days. This one
could have been one of those statistics had I not used my conservative climb
out practices so that I could see over the nose.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
EAA Tech Counselor
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Most efficient climb |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up
> significantly. I'm not really sure about this and may be
> totally wrong; but, I also get the notion that when I put
I have found the only way to keep the engine from overheating (without
this technique I'll see 425F +) on long climbs in the summer is to keep
the throttle full, mixture full rich, prop back to around 2500 when the
MAP drops to about 27" or so. I put the pitch angle around 120 knots
(this does obscure the forward view with essentially full power). Full
rich delivers about 16gph at sea level to an O360, but this fuel hog
phase only takes several minutes given the climb rates of these planes.
I burn perhaps 1 to 1.5 gallons to get to altitudes like 8k', but the
engine stays much, much cooler doing this sort of climb. And yes, I'm
aware that I don't have peak power using these settings, but engine
temperatures are much more important to me.
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 452 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ollie Washburn" <ollie-6a@prodigy.net>
Gabe, this has worked for me on all the Lycs I've had .Run the eng at about
1000 rpm, pull the mixture and as the engine is shutting down, close the
throttle all the way.
Ollie 6A FL.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm@bellsouth.net>
Subject: RV-List: Engine Shake During Shutdown
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gabe A Ferrer" <ferrergm@bellsouth.net>
>
> Does anyone know of a way to reduce the magnitude of the Lycoming engine
shakes during engine shutdown?
>
> It just seems unnecessary for the engine to do this.
>
> It's annoying and the vibration may harm the engine accessories.
>
> My O-360 A1A has done it from the first time that I ran it.
>
> Gabe A Ferrer
> RV6 NN2GX 108 hours
> South Florida
> Email: ferrergm@bellsouth.net
> Cell: 561 758 8894
> Night Phone: 561 622 0960
> Fax: 561 622 0960
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hal / Carol Kempthorne <kempthornes@earthlink.net>
At 10:15 PM 4/5/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> I really don't understand how the little box can maintain its balance so
> well
>without any outside assistance, but it can! :-)
GPS is not needed to keep the wings level. I doubt that it is needed to
hold a heading either.
Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really
cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of 2002 that
they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis
accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my Dynon is made
and why it is so cheap. Trio too?
These kinds of parts are combined to create AHRS - attitude heading
reference systems. Look how nicely the Dynon EFIS indicates attitude. It
shouldn't be too hard for Dynon to include autopilot functionality in their
next version. It could even be a three axis machine. GPS not needed for
these functions.
It is hard on the brain, trying to understand how our aircraft's attitude
can be maintained without the usual spinning wheels. Grandpa probably had
trouble understanding how the digital watch could tell time without a
pendulum too.
We are in the age of computers with eyes, ears, arms and legs. Next thing
you know, we will just start the engine, punch in the destination code and
the systems will do the rest.
K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne
RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now.
PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon OAT Probe |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Lockamy, Jack L" <jack.lockamy@navy.mil>
Laird,
Last night I successfully 'calibrated' the Dynon OAT probe. The EFIS will allow
increases/decreases in the displayed temperature (Celsius ONLY). I really wish
Dynon had given the user the option to select Celsius or Fahrenheit. My plan
is to set the Dynon OAT after engine start based on the ATIS info (if available)
and then see how far off the Grand Rapids may/may not be.
When there's no ATIS information available.... I'll wet my finger, stick it up
in the air, and take a wild ass guess! (At least that's how my grandfather showed
me how to do it...) :-)
Take care,
Jack
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" <don_mei@hotmail.com>
I do the following procedure just as a means to assist keeping the engine
clean, but it results in a very smooth, immediate shut down with no shake.
(I understand that it may not actually help keep the engine clean, but it
was recommended by Lycoming and it seems to make a lot of sense)
With the engine at a slightly elevated idle, slowly bring the mixture back
until some roughness is detected. Leave it there for a few seconds, then
pull to idle cut off.
The engine will shut down as if you had turned off the key.
Don Mei
(Back on 100LL since they put alcohol in auto fuel)
"All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create
the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan
Message 9
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| Subject: | Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@coltnet.net> (by way of Matt Dralle
<nospam@matronics.com>)
I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the
accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner
doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A
is
stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck,
parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't pulled
the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system
mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty
much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II
radio and
a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled
but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes.
They want to sell it as a package.
How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus?
I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8.
Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to
change out the sump?
Thanks for your time!!
Dave
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I am no engine guru, but from what I have read here, if the cylinders and crank
are serviceable the price for a good rebuildable core is about 8k. Maybe a
little more with all those accessories. That sump could be a problem with it
facing the rear. New sumps are $$.
At 09:34 AM 4/7/04 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@coltnet.net> (by way of Matt
>Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
>
>
> I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the
> accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner
> doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A
>is
> stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck,
> parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't pulled
> the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system
> mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty
> much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II
>radio and
> a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled
> but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes.
> They want to sell it as a package.
>
> How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus?
> I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8.
> Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to
> change out the sump?
>
> Thanks for your time!!
>
> Dave
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
It was very straightforward. Probably had 20 hours in installing everything
from firewall back to the baggage area. Turned out very nice for a novice
such as myself. I'd highly recommend her interior.
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold
RV-10 Soon
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Hamblen" <TravisHamblen@cox.net>
Subject: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Travis Hamblen" <TravisHamblen@cox.net>
>
> I am starting to think about overhauling/redoing my interior. I
absolutely
> love the seats by Becky Orndorff, but wanted some feedback on her interior
> products. I understand that she ships you the fabrics with the general
> outline for needed cuts and so on. I am a fairly handy guy and I am sure
I
> can do an at least average job. My question is for anyone that has used
her
> product is just how straight forward is it and does her video help? Any
> input from experience, even some pictures of your finished product would
be
> GREATLY appreciated!
>
>
> Travis Hamblen
>
> RV-6A 330hrs @ VGT
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Most efficient climb |
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
At 05:13 2004-04-07, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>
> > I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up
> > significantly. I'm not really sure about this and may be
> > totally wrong; but, I also get the notion that when I put
>
>I have found the only way to keep the engine from overheating (without
>this technique I'll see 425F +) on long climbs in the summer is to keep
>the throttle full, mixture full rich, prop back to around 2500 when the
>MAP drops to about 27" or so. I put the pitch angle around 120 knots
>(this does obscure the forward view with essentially full power). Full
>rich delivers about 16gph at sea level to an O360, but this fuel hog
>phase only takes several minutes given the climb rates of these planes.
>I burn perhaps 1 to 1.5 gallons to get to altitudes like 8k', but the
>engine stays much, much cooler doing this sort of climb. And yes, I'm
>aware that I don't have peak power using these settings, but engine
>temperatures are much more important to me.
>
>Alex Peterson
>Maple Grove, MN
>RV6-A N66AP 452 hours
As we used to tell our jump plane pilots and you'll hear from a lot of old
timers -
".. fuel is cheaper than cylinders."
Mike McGee
VAF Home Wing/EAA Chapter 105 Flyin Coordinator
June 19th, 2004
Scappoose, OR
Message 13
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| Subject: | stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these
on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the
delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it.
Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it
would sure be nice if you can change it.
Do not arcive please
Jeff Dowling
RV-6A, N915JD
58 hours
Chicago/Louisville
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Autopilot Itch
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> Richard Sipp wrote:
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" <rsipp@earthlink.net>
> >
> >
> > While I could certainly be mistaken, I think one of the major
differences in
> > the TruTrak and Trio products is that the TruTrak does not depend on an
> > external GPS for it attitude information. Loose your GPS signal and the
> > TruTrak can still control the airplane. From reviewing the Trio web
sight
> > it appears that an external GPS is required to provide or at least
augment
> > the attitude reference.
> >
> > Dick Sipp
> > RV4
> > RV10
>
>
> Dick, both the TruTrak and EZ-Pilot use GPS in the attitude solution.
> And, both systems are capable of remarkable wing-leveler performance
> without GPS input. However, without GPS, both system's performance will
> degrade over time and headings will require manual input after a
> significant time without GPS data. As far as I can tell, there is no
> appreciable difference in the way both systems integrate GPS.
>
> I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that Trio has recently enhanced
> the no-GPS performance of the EZ-Pilot in a substantial manner. I really
> don't understand how the little box can maintain its balance so well
> without any outside assistance, but it can! :-)
>
> Sam
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Was - Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched |
holes? ...Now RV-15 "the Jet"
--> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" <crabaut@coalinga.com>
Wow.... so the "rumors" are TRUE !!!
I just read Scott McDaniels' statement "> In my opinion, the absolute
bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or probably anywhere else can tell
you with absolute certainty that you will or will not have cracking problems
on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. "
Did you get that? "....on your RV 10 or 15 ... "
So Vans is going to make an RV-15 (years from now).
*I heard it's gonna be a 2 Seat, tandem, twin jet. I'm sending in my
deposit right now!
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob W M Shipley <rob@robsglass.com>
Subject: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr
Pre-punched holes?
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
>
>
> Everyone please note that Scott McDaniels has gone to the trouble to give
us an unofficial Van's view of this topic and afford him a courteous
reception - unless you wish to ensure that he won't contribute again.
>
> I received this directly from Scott today.
> Subject: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes?
>
>
> Hi Rob,
> I am not currently a subscriber on the list but I do cruise the archives
on occasion to see what the latest hot topic is.
> I saw yours and thought I would take a moment to reply, but I didn't even
have time to read the other responses so sorry if this is some what
redundant.
> I also am not sure how much of the below is yours or if some is pasted in
but I will answer some of the questions to hopefully finally put to bed
some of the confusion and miss information about what has been done in the
past at Van's in regards to assembling without drilling.
>
> I work in the proto shop at Vans and have been there about 8 years, so I
have been involved in the evolution to the current level of P.P. holes in
all of the kits.
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" <rob@robsglass.com>
>
> >Too many experts and not enough pragmatism.
>
> >Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a
problem
> here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a
quick
> spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these
specs.
>
> Regardless of what the specs are, if you build to the recommendations in
the manual then you are building to the same standard
> as was used to build test items that were static loaded to verify that the
structures met the loads that they were designed too.
> If you feel better starting with a hole size that is a few thousandths
smaller then go for it. I don't think any one at Van's has a problem with
that as long as you are using dimple dies that have a pilot that is not
stretching the holes when you insert it (the pilot is a clearance fit to the
hole).
>
> >Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr
and
> dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as
twice
> the allowed tolerance.
>
> See my response above... all the testing was done with parts constructed
this way.
> If you do not feel good about it the use a smaller hole.
>
> >You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years
so it
> works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better,
i.e.
> the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the
recommended rivet
> size is more likely to work.
>
> This has nothing to do with recommended rivet size. They are spec.ed by
what we
> used that did work when building the proto parts. Some times sizes are
called out wrong
> (we're not perfect) but it is surely not because the hole is a few
thousandths bigger than a Mil. spec calls for.
>
> > I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like
> this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans
considered
> it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them.
>
> And I have no problem with it either unless you are using dimple dies with
a pilot that doesn't fit the hole. I do have a problem with Not final
sizing the hole from what is punched, but just slamming dimple dies into
them.
>
> >Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate
metal failures
> is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are
> left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he
has
> ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs.
Look
> at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but
definitely
> ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and
deburring.
> "If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a
> chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round
smooth
> hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit."
> If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium
monocoque
> planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many
> of us have been alive .
>
> How many of those airplanes are 100% flush riveted on the exterior? Not
many. When you dimple, you are stretching the material. If you had to
force the dimple pilot into the hole before dimpling you stretched it even
more. Now if all of this was done on holes that had never been up sized,
you have a strong potential for cracking. The punching process leaves a
hole edge condition that is the same as a sheared edge on a skin at best.
Some times it is worse because of a punch tool that is getting slightly dull
or has a little more clearance that when it was new.
> It is for this reason that it is recommended in the manual that the holes
be final sized. True, it may not a perfect hole but that is ok. That is
what made riveted construction of aircraft so desirable.
>
> >He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably
> all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any
suggestions
> from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging
> these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers.
>
> Not true! Builders are told to deburr the edges of all parts (this would
include lightening holes).
> In our shop we use a small scotch bright wheel in a die grinder to
deburr/smooth all lightening holes and we assume builders are doing similar.
>
> >Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole
without match
> drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own
self,
> face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go
ahead
> &punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his
*only*
> answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they
> preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now."
>
> I think you are reading more into this than you should. That in no way
means that we would punch them full size if we were confident that the would
all line up properly.
>
> >I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had
experimented with
> this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true
> but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane
they
> were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him.
>
> There was never an "Experiment". It was a time saving short cut only when
building structures that we were using for static testing. It was mentioned
in an RVator only to describe how well the pre punch design work was going
and to describe how well the parts fit. It was never intended to present a
process that should be used to assemble the kit.
> We have never done this on any structures that we intended to fly. The
cracking issue is related to the life of the structure with thousands of
load cycles. The structures we did this on only had to last through 1 or 2
load cycles.
>
> >Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers
dangerous for
> example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He
is also
> notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on
this
> topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our
theorists
> believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why.
>
> >There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole
condition,
> size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and
riveting punched
> holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen
> in aircraft riveted together without match drilling
>
> Lets see... I have not seen a large campaign calling for an outsider
evaluation of the wing engineering on any of the RV models, do builders
acccept on blind faith that the wings are designed properly but they will
not acccept it when the manual suggests that they final size all of the
holes before dimpling?
>
> In my opinion, the absolute bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or
probably anywhere else can tell you with absolute certainty that you will or
will not have cracking problems on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. We have
no experience or data to prove it one way or the other. This is something
that would not likely happen right away. There are probably RV's now flying
that were build without drilling. The owner/builders may even be preaching
to everyone that "They haven't had any problems". That information of no
value. Tell us after the airplane is 10 years old.
> I doubt very much that if Van's endorsed skipping the drilling, and 10
years from now a bunch of RV's started to have cracking problems, I doubt
those owners would consider it much a consolation for Van's to say "Sorry, I
guess we were wrong. From now on we recommend builders don't do that any
more".
> So, If anyone is willing to experiment, and take a chance, to save maybe
20 hours of work ( a very small amount considering the total number of hours
most builders expend) on the construction of there RV , then go for it.
Just realize that no mater how many experts you talk to, or how many other
builders have already done it, only time will tell wether you made the right
decision.
>
> I hope at least some of this is of some value but I have to close with the
standard disclaimer dribble...
> This is my own personal opinion and does not necessarily match the
policy's or opinions of my employer.
>
> P.S. feel free to share this as you wish, as long as you promise to
refrain from flaming me without a chance to respond since I'm not on the
list :-)
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Hi Dave,
I have the exact same engein on my RV6, which I bought used (750SNEW) and I
now have 200+hrs trouble free hrs on it.
Here are some things about that engine:
1) I believe the -B4A's didn't originally have rear facing induction. Mine
is original and the FI servo is mounted vertically on the sump, and all the
paperwork I have says that's the way it should be, so it appears someone may
have swapped sumps, and probably hence the lack of a data plate on your
sump.
2) The -B4A does indeed have a solid crank (aerobatic), so no C/S prop on
this engine (no problem, I have the metal sensenich and love it). If a c/s
is in your future, plan on $2-5K for a hollow crank.
3) Mags are Slicks by default, but E.I. is a good option (I hear, and will
do this summer).
4) The FI (Bendix system) is just fine and have been proven for many years.
One thing to see how new it is, take a look at the servo and look at the
rubber diaphrams. You can see them sandwiched on the servo...if they are
black, they are the old type rubber and need replaced. If they are orange,
they are the newer style and probably indicates an overhaul or new in the
last 10 years. Also, if you can look at the throat of it, you can get an
indication of time/condition. How do the impact tube look, is the throat
clean or dirty?? Check the Throttle/Mixture are bushings for movement and
check over the mixture adjustment arm. All can be indicators of time, as
the throttle/mixture arm bushings all wear with time....
5) There is a minor but pesky 50hr AD on the crank flange of this engine if
you are doing aerobatics above the utility category. Meaning, if you fly
the engine above 4G's, you need to do a 50hr visual inspection on the
flange. Not a big deal, as my wifferdills are under that in the -6 most of
the time, so I do the inspection on a less regular basis.
6) The oil pump AD applies to this engine (Easy fix, new impellers).
7) If you're no going to install the inverted oil system, you'll need to
"de-modify" the sump for regular use. It's not hard, but you have to
replace the oil pickup with a finger strainer, block the forward and back
oil pick openings, etc... You'll probably want to replace the rear-facing
sump anyway.
8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a
"non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a
machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing sumps
have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then you
put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo!
9) Does it have a Vernitherm or Viscosity Valve?? Check to see...many of
the aerobatic/Pitts drivers used these engines with oil wide open, always
flowing unrestriced through the cooler...
10) Last indicator of engine health. Look at the oil pressure adjustment
bolt on the right rear of the engine...See how far it's screwed in. If
there is decent amount of bolt showing, the engine probably hasn't been
adjusted to death. If the castle nut/bolt head is screwed all the way down
near the case, then the engine has probably been "adjusted/tinkered" to
continually compensate for growing internal clearances and continued
decrease in pressure. Not common, but a dead giveaway that someone is
trying to "slip one past you" by falsely keeping the oil pressures high!
Now for cost.....I bought mine 4 years ago for $9.5K off a hurricane flipped
pitts, with 750SNEW, and all accessories, including the inverted oil system
(I bolted it on and I'm still flying). The difference is I have all
paperwork since the engine was new in 1986. Today, I would be more hesitant,
due to the fact that a brand new ECI kit can be had for around $14.5. That
being said, the accessories are worth quite a bit..... The FI system is
worth between $1500-3500 hrs depending on time/condition, mags between
$200-$600 for the pair, Vacuum pump should be treated as a core and
overhauled by you at a cost of $100-300.00 for peace of mind. The gyros
could be worth anywhere from $100-600.00+ (each) each depending on
appearance, history, time, etc.. Values for accessories vary wildly, but a
with no history or knowledge of time, I can guarantee they won't bring or be
worth as much, even if they only have a few hours on them, because no-one
knows.
If I were you, I wouldn't be afraid to buy this engine as a "core" and
re-build it. New cylinders are around $850.00 ea, and the bottom end can be
real cheap or real expensive depending on status of the journals, cam, etc..
Overall, this is a good engine, dynafocal mount, and like all -360's, fairly
bullet proof.
All said and done, You want to make sure when you're finished, the overhaul
comes in cheaper (with accessories) than buying a new Aerosport or ECI
engine for $17-22K. Therefore, I'd probably be comfortable around the $8-9K
range +/-, given the fact you have no history, logs, data plate, etc.. so
everything is pretty much an unknown. Then you put $5-$8K for overhaul of
the engine/accessories, and you have a fresh engine still cheaper than a new
one. Note...overhaul costs can also vary wildly depending on the engine
internal condition, who is doing the o/h (you or a shop) and parts used (Lyc
verses ECI/Superior).
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
http://www.steinair.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave (by way of
Matt Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
Subject: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" <dave@coltnet.net> (by way of Matt
Dralle <nospam@matronics.com>)
I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the
accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner
doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A
is
stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck,
parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't
pulled
the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system
mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty
much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II
radio and
a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled
but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes.
They want to sell it as a package.
How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus?
I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8.
Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to
change out the sump?
Thanks for your time!!
Dave
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
First, I agree with you 110%. However, the customary news group
"etiquette" specifies that the reply be below the original message.
This is so you can read what came before and then read the reply. Makes
some sense if you are just "tuning in" to a discussion, but is a real
pain if you are continually getting the messages. Of course, that same
etiquette says that you should snip all of the previous communication
except what is specifically relevant to the reply - which mostly doesn't
happen.
So, I doubt that we will be able to change anything as much as I agree
with you. Most email can be set up to put the reply before or after the
original message.
I either answer at the top or interleave my reply within the previous
message as appropriate.
Dick Tasker
Jeff Dowling wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these
>on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the
>delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it.
>Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it
>would sure be nice if you can change it.
>
>Do not arcive please
>
>Jeff Dowling
>RV-6A, N915JD
>58 hours
>Chicago/Louisville
>
>
>
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." <rv3@comcast.net>
Donald Mei wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" <don_mei@hotmail.com>
>
>I do the following procedure just as a means to assist keeping the engine
>clean, but it results in a very smooth, immediate shut down with no shake.
>(I understand that it may not actually help keep the engine clean, but it
>was recommended by Lycoming and it seems to make a lot of sense)
>
>With the engine at a slightly elevated idle, slowly bring the mixture back
>until some roughness is detected. Leave it there for a few seconds, then
>pull to idle cut off.
>
>
>The engine will shut down as if you had turned off the key.
>
>Don Mei
>
=======================================
Hmmmm.
Interesting..... this "as if you had turned off the key".
This is the proper procedure for certain engines without an idle cut off
carb.
Engines shut down this manner have survive just fine over the decades.
Any comments?
Bob
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee <jmpcrftr@teleport.com>
At 11:00 2004-04-07, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these
>on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the
>delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it.
>Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it
>would sure be nice if you can change it.
>
>Do not arcive please
>
>Jeff Dowling
>RV-6A, N915JD
>58 hours
>Chicago/Louisville
On some email lists it's expected that you put your reply at the end so the
thread is in chronological order (lest you suffer the wrath of the list
admin). It then becomes a matter of habit. All my email progs default the
reply to the top of the message.
Mike McGee
VAF Home Wing/EAA Chapter 105 Flyin Coordinator
June 19th, 2004
Scappoose, OR
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
The wife and I have one person that believes that everything needs to be
re-sent with every reply and added comments. The last thing she sent had ALL
of the 5 previous e-mails en toto and when printed out took three sheets of
paper.
I add my replies to the top w/ quotes or snips. One> means last one, two>>
means the one before that, etc etc. That way if you don't like what I have
started to say on the first line you can delete it quickly.
KABONG (GBA) N561FS up and flying with a newly re-built mechanical fuel
pump. Do Not Archive
> --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
>
> First, I agree with you 110%. However, the customary news group
> "etiquette" specifies that the reply be below the original message.
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling"
<shempdowling@earthlink.net>
> >
> >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading
these
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
Jeff Dowling wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these
>on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the
>delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it.
>Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it
>would sure be nice if you can change it.
>
>Do not arcive please
>
>Jeff Dowling
>RV-6A, N915JD
>58 hours
>Chicago/Louisville
>
Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs.
drill/dimple. :-)
I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of
emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is
incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward
for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up
through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then
scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again &
through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc.
Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order
within the covers?
I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes
between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no
scrolling would be needed anyway.
Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your
laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at
Slobovia.
Charlie
Slobovia Outernational Airport
-7 in the oven
do not archive (for real this time :-) )
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
In a message dated 04/07/2004 11:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
2) The -B4A does indeed have a solid crank (aerobatic), so no C/S prop on
this engine (no problem, I have the metal sensenich and love it). If a c/s
is in your future, plan on $2-5K for a hollow crank.
Please correct this statement.
No HYDRAULIC C/S prop ...
An electric C/S prop will bolt on just fine.
Electric governor, MT Propeller and spinner price = hydraulic governor, MT
Propeller and spinner price.
Jim Ayers
Less Drag Products, Inc.
An OEM distributor for MT Propeller.
Custom designed electric C/S propellers available.
www.lessdrag.com
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Stiffener Confusion |
--> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg <foldenburg@earthlink.net>
I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat confused
as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners.
Here is my understanding of what I need to do so far:
Each set of two stiffeners (R-915 A through H) comes in a single piece that you
cut in the center to form two stiffeners. You're then supposed to trim the front
of each individual piece to shorten the stiffener, consistent with the length
of the match holes in the skin.
The stiffeners need to be trimmed to taper with the rudder's shape (i.e. the side
without the holes is tapered). I understand that there are guide holes for
this (the little half-holes on the edge of the material). but are all the tapers
in the stiffeners supposed to be the same length no matter how long the individual
stiffener? Also, there seems to be a guide hole on the edge of the material
but I'm confused as to where to start on the other side (the radius corner??)
Thanks,
Fred
Fred Oldenburg
RV-7A - Empennage
http://www.rv.oldsack.com
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | trim tab position |
--> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" <gpww@alltel.net>
Hey guys!
Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the trim tab
on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab?
Glenn
654RV @ OKZ
36 Hrs
archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Jeff Dowling wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these
>on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the
>delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it.
>Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it
>would sure be nice if you can change it.
>
>
It is completely dependant upon the e-mail client used when
replying to the message. Mine, for example, is configured to
reply below the message. That makes more sense to me, then
someone can read the text above, and have a context
to understand what I am repying to without scrolling down
to the bottom of the message, then back up to the top
to read my reply. Others are different - diversity is fine... :-)
-Dj
Message 25
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Every once in a while someone on this list mentions good service or products
they have received.
Today I am goiing to shock some of you....my nomination for the Good Guy in
the FAA is Denver FSDO Inspector Scott Christenson....he used his own time
to give a a revised operating limitation change when the policy of that
office was that they were too overloaded to handle experimentals. (a
legitimate situation.) He went out of his way to help me, and he's coming
down tomorrow for an inspection of a commercial operator here at our
airport, and I hope he will allow me to take him to lunch...
Now and then you run into someone decent. Scott fits that bill.
FWIW
John at Salida, CO
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | >> RE: Stupid Whining Complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I agree about repeating the message you are commenting on.
If you read Matt's instructions ( Apparently NO ONE does) he says to NOT
repeat lines or whole messages since the archives are getting overwhelming. I
read his instructions - see RV-4 List,if you can't find them here.
Bob Olds -- RV-4 , N1191X
oldsfolks@aol.com
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 27
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| Subject: | RE: Engine Shake During Shutdown |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" <matthew@n523rv.com>
Gabe,
There was a discussion about prop indexing a month or so ago that supposedly
helped the shaking problem. Search the archives for 'prop index' and you'll
see a bunch of messages.
Matthew Brandes,
Van's RV-9A (Wings/Fuselage)
EAA Chapter 868/91/1329
www.n523rv.com <http://www.n523rv.com/>
Message 28
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| Subject: | stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts
below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have
already read the other chapters in this case.
I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we
only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said
AND READ.
Thanks
Mike
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie &
Tupper England
Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England
<cengland@netdoor.com>
Jeff Dowling wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling"
<shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading
these
>on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over
the
>delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss
it.
>Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but
it
>would sure be nice if you can change it.
>
>Do not arcive please
>
>Jeff Dowling
>RV-6A, N915JD
>58 hours
>Chicago/Louisville
>
Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs.
drill/dimple. :-)
I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of
emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is
incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward
for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up
through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then
scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again &
through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc.
Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order
within the covers?
I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes
between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no
scrolling would be needed anyway.
Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your
laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at
Slobovia.
Charlie
Slobovia Outernational Airport
-7 in the oven
do not archive (for real this time :-) )
==
==
==
==
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: trim tab position |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
There is alot of dirty air coming off the canopy so below the stab? Just a
guess.
At 04:45 PM 4/7/04 -0400, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" <gpww@alltel.net>
>
>Hey guys!
>Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the
>trim tab on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab?
>
>Glenn
>654RV @ OKZ
>36 Hrs
>
>
>archive
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 30
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|
| Subject: | Neat Airport Web Site |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Crosley, Rich" <RCROSLEY@HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM>
Check out http://www.airnav.com/airports/
You can put in a city name and it will give you all the near by airports,
fuel, fbos, nav aids, all kinds of data. Check it out
Rich Crosley
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) was saying:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts
> below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have
> already read the other chapters in this case.
>
> I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we
> only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said
> AND READ.
That's fine, if there's only one thread going at any given time.
As it is, nobody necessarily knows the context.
Besides all that, it's just plain annoying to have to scroll down to
read the context.
The message has always been on the bottom, and it should always
remain on the bottom-- That's the way of things, and it's a good
way.
Just like wings.
-Kysh
do not archive
--
| 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying |
| CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr |
| 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang |
| Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ |
| KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham |
| Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ |
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really
> cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of
> 2002 that
> they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis
> accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my
> Dynon is made
> and why it is so cheap. Trio too?
I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's
pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be
thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the
tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to
vibrate in an up and down fashion (this would be the roll axis "gyro").
If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer
vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little
twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the
side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain
gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these
solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the
roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply
integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite
elegant.
BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look
for over or under steer.
Alex Peterson, traumatized by not know where to put my comments, top or
bottom.....
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP 452 hours
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
04/07/2004 04:47:41 PM,
Serialize complete at 04/07/2004 04:47:41 PM
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com
Others of us just read the subject line, and remember the context. If
necessary I scroll down to get it I find it annoying to have to scroll
through the old stuff to get to the new stuff.
Those of us who are willing to agree to disagree about this will keep
posting at the top and appreciate others who do, and drop the thread.
You are right about wings, though!
Scott
do not archive
> Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts
> below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have
> already read the other chapters in this case.
>
As it is, nobody necessarily knows the context.
Besides all that, it's just plain annoying to have to scroll down to
read the context.
The message has always been on the bottom, and it should always
remain on the bottom-- That's the way of things, and it's a good
way.
Just like wings.
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Travis;
I have installed a "Becky Orndorff" Interior Kit in our RV6A-QB. Becky even
personalized our kit with some inserts that I made and sent to Becky for
installation in the Seat Back covers and special fabric for the Stick Boots.
Becky's kits are excellent and her video will be extremely helpful for those
RV builders who are "Fabric Challenged". I would recommend adding the foam
insulation kit to your overall interior kit, if you do not already have this
on the interior walls of your fuselage. Everything is pre-drawn on the
fabric and foam...all you do is cut & glue! I installed her firewall
insulation kit as well. Everything is of exceptional quality, including the
written instructions that come with your kit!
But...unless you are of smaller stature...you will have problems glueing the
fabric on the walls directly below your instrument panel. If you aren't
small...take up yoga to improve your flexibility! Above all, take your time
between each piece....measure twice, cut once!
Sorry, we don't have pictures that can be attached to this e-mail, but you
are welcome to come to 10G (Holmes County Airport, Ohio) and have a look!
Cathy & Tom Ervin
6A-QB
Tom is starting the fiberglass work on the front cowl...are we done
yet???????
----- Original Message -----
From: "Travis Hamblen" <TravisHamblen@cox.net>
Subject: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Travis Hamblen" <TravisHamblen@cox.net>
>
> I am starting to think about overhauling/redoing my interior. I
absolutely
> love the seats by Becky Orndorff, but wanted some feedback on her interior
> products. I understand that she ships you the fabrics with the general
> outline for needed cuts and so on. I am a fairly handy guy and I am sure
I
> can do an at least average job. My question is for anyone that has used
her
> product is just how straight forward is it and does her video help? Any
> input from experience, even some pictures of your finished product would
be
> GREATLY appreciated!
>
>
> Travis Hamblen
>
> RV-6A 330hrs @ VGT
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com).
>
>
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot |
Itch
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Since, like Alex, I don't want to do a faux pas ..... I'll put my
comments in THE MIDDLE!!!! :-D
Alex Peterson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>
>
>>Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really
>>cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of
>>2002 that
>>they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis
>>accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my
>>Dynon is made
>>and why it is so cheap. Trio too?
>>
>>
>
>I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's
>pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be
>thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the
>tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to
>vibrate in an up and down fashion
>
Does a tuning fork 'ring'?
> (this would be the roll axis "gyro").
>
A ring gyro?
>If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer
>vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little
>twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the
>side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain
>gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these
>solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the
>roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply
>integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite
>elegant.
>
Oh darn .... thought I had something there. There are small "ring laser
gyro's" out there, but I haven't the faintest idea how they work!!!
>BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look
>for over or under steer.
>
>Alex Peterson, traumatized by not know where to put my comments, top or
>bottom.....
>
The counselor will be available in the morning.
>Maple Grove, MN
>RV6-A N66AP 452 hours
>
>http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
>
Alex, thanks for a really informative email ..... I just couldn't resist
poking a little fun.
Linn ..... drives down the middle of the road
do not archive
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill <deej@thayer.dartmouth.edu>
Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote:
>Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts
>below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have
>already read the other chapters in this case.
>
>
>
To counter that, we (at least I) get a lot of e-mail, many from lists.
If there isn't something at the top of the message to give me some
context as to
what the email is about, it is confusing. It doesn't make sense to
scroll to the bottom of the message to find out what it is about, and
then go back to the top to read the reply.
Some of you may be able to keep a few dozen different
conversations in mind at the same time, but not my tired brain... :-)
-Dj
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" <jlanglin44@earthlink.net>
I say leave out all previous posts. Either you are following the thread or
when you download the messages sort them by date (IE5 will do this
automatically) and then go read all the posts in order.
Jim
do not archive
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: trim tab position |
--> RV-List message posted by: "William Davis" <rvpilot@access4less.net>
Glenn,
You will find that the trim tab is much more effective when placed in the
clean air above the horiz. stab.
Bill RV-8 N48WD Tiger-Kat
----- Original Message -----
From: "glennpaulwilkinson" <gpww@alltel.net>
Subject: RV-List: trim tab position
> --> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" <gpww@alltel.net>
>
> Hey guys!
> Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the
trim tab on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab?
>
> Glenn
> 654RV @ OKZ
> 36 Hrs
>
>
> archive
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
At 01:27 PM 4/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg <foldenburg@earthlink.net>
>
>I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat
>confused as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners.
messed up several before I got it right.
First, cut, label, and shape all the "regular" stiffeners and set
them in position. Get them out of the way so you don't mix them up with the
ones you are going to cut down.
Triple check before you trim anything. After you mark the
stiffeners for trimming, actually set them in position to confirm that the
holes are going to line up, then trim the longest one and check to be sure
you have done that one correctly before you trim any of the others. (If you
mess up the longest one, you might be able to trim it further and use it
for a shorter one.)
The instructions don't make it 100% clear which end you are
supposed to trim or where you are supposed to measure from. Once you
finally figure it out, the instructions make perfect sense. But by then it
doesn't matter, does it? :-)
I seem to remember that you are supposed to trim the front of the
stiffener. (I could very well be wrong.) The back taper thus stays "stock."
I cut the stiffeners center to center on the guide holes then
rounded the corners to the point where the guide holes vanished. Seemed to
fit OK.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst@ucol.ac.nz>
Last year I used 3D magnetometers and ADXL's accelerometers to measure
ocean wave parameters using a floating buoy (for my Master's thesis, now
complete). In many ways, the problems (notably the lack of reliable
absolute references) are the same as attitude measurement in an
aircraft, except that the aircraft situation is worse.
For my ocean waves, I could assume a long-term average acceleration,
velocity, and displacement of 0. In aircraft, such an assumption (whilst
true for the *very* long term), isn't useful for determining attitude in
the short-term. In cars, the problem is simplified somewhat since the
car is (almost certainly) approximately upright, and has a more-or-less
constant 1G pull more-or-less downwards.
Essentially, to determine attitude from a rate gyro such as you
describe, you must integrate the measured rotations. Every time you
measure, you get an error, so your calculated attitude becomes less and
less accurate as time goes by. Therefore you need to periodically reset
the attitude to a known position. This of course applies to mechanical
rate gyros as well, where (for example) the pilot must reset the heading
gyro to the compass about once every 20 minutes, whilst in
straight-and-level (non-accelarating) flight.
I'd like to know exactly how Dynon does it. Does the pilot fly S&L and
press a button to tell the Dynon that its now a good time to reset? Or
does it determine S&L by some other means? Does it have 3D magnetometers
(which introduces a whole host of other problems due to the variations
in the Earth's magnetic field) to measure attitude, or does it have some
other sensor? Maybe use GPS?
Incidentally, there's been some interesting work done on attitude
determination using GPS eg
http://www.geomatics.ucalgary.ca/research/GPSRes/attitude.html and
http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/att_for_aircraft_rch1998.pd
f. Whilst this is used in bulldozers and such-like, it's still in the
multi-thousand dollar price-bracket (ie not my price bracket!)
Frank
-----Original Message-----
> Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really
> cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of
> 2002 that
> they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis
> accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my
> Dynon is made
> and why it is so cheap. Trio too?
I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's
pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be
thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the
tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to
vibrate in an up and down fashion (this would be the roll axis "gyro").
If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer
vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little
twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the
side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain
gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these
solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the
roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply
integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite
elegant.
BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look
for over or under steer.
Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online
at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL
(0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information
and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of
Learning.
Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your
future
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Most efficient climb |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England <cengland@netdoor.com>
>
>Scott Bilinski wrote:
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>>
>>So your going on a long X-country What is the most efficient climb? Blast
>>right on up to altitude and go, or, do a long cruise climb, somewhere in
>>between, what speed? Has anyone really crunched the numbers and figured
>>this out. I figured one of you test pilot types know this stuff. Oh, the
>>whole point is to get from point A to point B (this case 700 miles) the
>>fastest at 8k feet, depending on the wind of course while using the least
>>amount of fuel.
>>
>>
>>Scott Bilinski
>>Eng dept 305
>>Phone (858) 657-2536
>>Pager (858) 502-5190
>>
>Van wrote an article about this several years ago; I think it was in the
>RVator. My flaky memory is telling me that he mentioned something around
>120 mph instead of the expected ~90 mph. The idea was that the low
>aspect ratio wing causes (induced?) drag to go up more when you get down
>in the 90 mph range. He pointed out that if you climb at calculated
>'best climb' using traditional techniques (1.? x stall), then try the
>same throttle setting but climb at ~120 mph, you will see the same
>*rate* of climb but will cover a lot more territory on the way to cruise
>altitude.
>
>I don't remember if he mentioned whether fp or c/s made a difference in
>these numbers.
>
>I can say that I've tried it on 2 different fp -4's & my neighbor has
>tried it in his fp -8, and the effect was easy to see.
>
>Kevin, can you give a sanity check on this?
This is all quite plausible, especially for an aircraft with a
fixed-pitch prop, as long as we allow that the rate of climb will
vary a bit, and not be _exactly_ the same. The engine at full
throttle would make more rpm, and hence more power, the faster the
climb speed. This would tend to provide a flatter top to the rate of
climb vs speed curve. An aircraft with a constant-speed prop would
have a less flat top to the rate of climb vs speed curve. Very
detailed and exacting climb tests would show that there was one
optimum speed for any given weight, and the rate of climb would
decrease at higher speeds, although there would be a range of speeds
where the rate of climb would be _roughly_ the same.
The rules of thumb that say the best rate of climb speed is 1.? x the
stall speed only work if the aircraft in question is similar to the
aircraft the rule of thumb was built around. The RV's low aspect
ratio wing means that rules of thumb developed for the likes of
Cessnas may not work for us. Fixed-pitch RVs also have higher pitch
props than a Cessna, as the cruise speed is so much higher. This
also helps screw up rules of thumb that deal with performance.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 42
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| Subject: | Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" <F.vanderHulst@ucol.ac.nz>
> Oh darn .... thought I had something there. There are small "ring
laser
> gyro's" out there, but I haven't the faintest idea how they work!!!
A laser beam is passed many times around a fixed path within an
enclosure. If the enclosure rotates, the duration from the moment of
laser emission to eventual reception will vary. In a Ring Laser
Gyroscope, mirrors inside the enclosure form the laser beam path. In a
Fibre Optic Gyroscope, a coil of optical-fibre creates the path.
These devices are still very pricey.
Frank
(alternating replies before and after the original message :-)
Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online
at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL
(0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information
and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of
Learning.
Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your
future
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com
I have an IO-360 B4A in my RV-8A and it has a solid crankshaft. The Bendix
injection is mounted on the bottom of the sump, though.
Walt Shipley N314TS 85 hrs
Message 44
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|
| Subject: | Re: stupid whining complaint |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" <altoq@direcway.com>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: stupid whining complaint
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
<mstewart@iss.net>
>
> Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts
I say all new text should go
> below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have
to the right side, aligned to
> already read the other chapters in this case.
it's point of referance. This
>
would allow easy cross check
> I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we
of each point and counter
> only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said
point and require minimum
> AND READ.
scrolling.
>
> Thanks
John D.
>
> Mike
> Do not archive.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie &
> Tupper England
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England
> <cengland@netdoor.com>
>
> Jeff Dowling wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling"
> <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
> >
> >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading
> these
> >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over
> the
> >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss
> it.
> >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but
> it
> >would sure be nice if you can change it.
> >
> >Do not arcive please
> >
> >Jeff Dowling
> >RV-6A, N915JD
> >58 hours
> >Chicago/Louisville
> >
>
> Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs.
>
> drill/dimple. :-)
>
> I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of
>
> emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is
> incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward
> for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up
>
> through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then
> scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again &
> through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc.
>
> Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order
> within the covers?
>
> I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes
> between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no
> scrolling would be needed anyway.
>
> Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your
> laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at
> Slobovia.
>
> Charlie
> Slobovia Outernational Airport
> -7 in the oven
> do not archive (for real this time :-) )
>
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: trim tab position |
--> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com
Get some 200mph duct tape and tape the sucker on and test in different
locations. On my 8A I can get by with a shorter trim tab if I place it above the
horizontal stab by about 6-8".
Walt Shipley
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: >Re:Trim Tab Position |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I hate those ugly tabs hanging out behind control surfaces so I use a wedge
about 1" wide of the correct length to make the compensation correctly. A
metal wedge painted to match the surface is barely noticeable. I put mine on the
rudder at its' widest point for the most leverage;meaning it could be shorter.
To get the correct size,make the wedge of wood ,and duct tape it on to try
until you get the correct size.
Bob Olds -- RV-4 , N1191X
oldsfolks@aol.com
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: FAA Good Guy |
--> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com
All I can say is WWWWOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Do Not Archive
Weasel
-4 waiting for FAA
On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:07:42 -0600 "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com> writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> Every once in a while someone on this list mentions good service or
> products
> they have received.
>
> Today I am goiing to shock some of you....my nomination for the Good
> Guy in
> the FAA is Denver FSDO Inspector Scott Christenson....he used his
> own time
> to give a a revised operating limitation change when the policy of
> that
> office was that they were too overloaded to handle experimentals.
> (a
> legitimate situation.) He went out of his way to help me, and he's
> coming
> down tomorrow for an inspection of a commercial operator here at
> our
> airport, and I hope he will allow me to take him to lunch...
>
> Now and then you run into someone decent. Scott fits that bill.
>
> FWIW
>
> John at Salida, CO
>
>
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
=
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Stein and fellow Listers,
Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6 with
a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to
the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go
due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump. I
had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the servo
to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an
-A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy what
I
did. Can I get a new data plate?
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (getting pretty close)
In a message dated 4/7/04 1:22:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
>
> 8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a
> "non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a
> machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing sumps
> have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then you
> put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6's, Minneapolis
>
>
Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion |
--> RV-List message posted by: G B <microsys@alltel.net>
I did this yesterday on my RV9.
I kept moving the stiffeners one hole at a time, and found out that the holes only
exactly line up one way. Yes, they may appear to line up one hole off, but not
really if
you look carefully. Once the holes lined up, it was clear which end must be cut
off.
I reread the instructions several times, but actually playing with it helped.
I was disappointed there was not a profile drawing of one cut stiffener!
Glen
HS, VS done
Bill Dube wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube <bdube@al.noaa.gov>
>
> At 01:27 PM 4/7/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg <foldenburg@earthlink.net>
> >
> >I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat
> >confused as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners.
>
> messed up several before I got it right.
>
> First, cut, label, and shape all the "regular" stiffeners and set
> them in position. Get them out of the way so you don't mix them up with the
> ones you are going to cut down.
>
> Triple check before you trim anything. After you mark the
> stiffeners for trimming, actually set them in position to confirm that the
> holes are going to line up, then trim the longest one and check to be sure
> you have done that one correctly before you trim any of the others. (If you
> mess up the longest one, you might be able to trim it further and use it
> for a shorter one.)
>
> The instructions don't make it 100% clear which end you are
> supposed to trim or where you are supposed to measure from. Once you
> finally figure it out, the instructions make perfect sense. But by then it
> doesn't matter, does it? :-)
>
> I seem to remember that you are supposed to trim the front of the
> stiffener. (I could very well be wrong.) The back taper thus stays "stock."
>
> I cut the stiffeners center to center on the guide holes then
> rounded the corners to the point where the guide holes vanished. Seemed to
> fit OK.
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Hopperdhh@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
>
>Stein and fellow Listers,
>
>Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6 with
>a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to
>the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go
>due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump. I
>had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the servo
>to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an
>-A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy what
I
>did. Can I get a new data plate?
>
>Dan Hopper
>RV-7A (getting pretty close)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Ask the FAA guy that reads this list and does many of the inspection in
this area for his opinion. :-)
do not archive
Jerry
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Very good reply Glen. I would like to add a few things. I just finished my
RV-9 replacement rudder for my early RV-7A.
1. Be sure to trim the stiffeners enough that they don't touch the opposite
skin near the trailing edge. This will be automatic if you draw your line
toward the center of the marker holes.
2. Use a 30 degree triangle (drafting type) to set the forward angles --
although not critical.
3. As was posted earlier, round the corners with a file until the marker
holes disappear.
4. Use Pro-Seal on the trailing edge, let it cure plenty long. AND
alternate rivet directions to keep the trailing edge straight. I didn't use Pro-Seal
and my trailing edge is "wavy." Alternating rivet directions kept this from
becoming a big curve though! But, I think Pro-Seal would have kept the
aluminum from opening up at the trailing edge. It's also possible that I countersunk
too much.
5. Just before you close up the trailing edge use some Pro-Seal to "glue"
the left and right stiffeners together. This will prevent the skin from
cracking which was a problem on some RV-6s.
I'm definitely not an expert, but this is what I wish I had done. I will do
it better next time!
Hope all this helps you get a good job. Take your time.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (almost done)
In a message dated 4/7/04 10:26:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
microsys@alltel.net writes:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: G B <microsys@alltel.net>
>
> I did this yesterday on my RV9.
>
> I kept moving the stiffeners one hole at a time, and found out that the
> holes only
> exactly line up one way. Yes, they may appear to line up one hole off, but
> not
> really if
> you look carefully. Once the holes lined up, it was clear which end must be
> cut
> off.
>
> I reread the instructions several times, but actually playing with it
> helped.
>
> I was disappointed there was not a profile drawing of one cut stiffener!
>
> Glen
> HS, VS done
>
>
Message 52
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| Subject: | trim tab position |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
How about a 3" piece of angle taped to the underside of the HS instead.
Out of sight. Perfectly aligned with the slip stream it has zero trim
effect. Cocked slightly to either side, it would provide some trim.
Probably more effective on the left side. Has anyone tried it?
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8 FAB ...
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com [mailto:RVEIGHTA@aol.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:08 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: trim tab position
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com
>
>
> Get some 200mph duct tape and tape the sucker on and test in
> different
> locations. On my 8A I can get by with a shorter trim tab if I
> place it above the
> horizontal stab by about 6-8".
>
> Walt Shipley
Message 53
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| Subject: | Question for the Engine Guru's on the list |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Hi Dan,
The whole point of my comment was that this engine has obviously already
been modified, as the -B4A is NOT a rear sump engine originally, hence the
missing data plate on the sump.... As pointed out by a couple other
individuals, the -B4A has a vertical sump, I re-checked my manuals to make
sure.
I'm not dumb enough to comment on the FAA thing in writing, but suffice to
say it sholdn't be a huge issue...
Oh, one last thing to keep this all light hearted - If you'd only gone with
a Taildragger, that pesky nose gear most likely wouldn't have been in the
way!!! No sump interference, no FAB interference, no Slot & cover in the
cowl, no nosewheel shimmy, and no flat nose tires (OK, I better stop before
the war starts again)!
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
Do not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
Hopperdhh@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Stein and fellow Listers,
Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6
with
a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to
the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go
due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump.
I
had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the
servo
to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an
-A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy
what I
did. Can I get a new data plate?
Dan Hopper
RV-7A (getting pretty close)
In a message dated 4/7/04 1:22:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
stein@steinair.com writes:
>
> 8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a
> "non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a
> machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing
sumps
> have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then
you
> put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo!
>
>
> Cheers,
> Stein Bruch
> RV6's, Minneapolis
>
>
Message 54
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--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
I have checked the archives and found very little information so here goes.
I am considering a Catto prop for my RV-6 and would like to hear from anyone
who has had first hand experience with these propellers, no rumors please, just
the facts as you know them (Scott, thanks for your previous reply). Reply on
or off the list.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, final assembly
Message 55
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| Subject: | Re: Blue Mountain EFIS |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim and Bev Cone" <jimnbev@olypen.com>
I have an EFIS One and a Dynon installed and running in my nearly completed RV-7A.
It really looks great and even though my Apollo CNX-80 will not get a signal
in my hangar, the EFIS One does. The EFIS One just keeps adding feature after
feature after feature and the company is very responsive to builder suggestions.
Sometimes they add a new feature or improve an old one in just one day
after a good idea is suggested! The next great thing is HITS (highway in the
sky) only better. They call it their Chelton Killer. Their digital autopilot
is much better than any rate based system and is cheaper to boot. Up to 32
engine instruments can be displayed with alarms for high, low, rate change, and
fail. Maps include VFR, IFR Low and High, Airports only, and Airways only.
It also displays checklists. The ADI and HSI has wind info, TAS, Altitude above
the ground, artificial vision behind the ADI, and Terrain above your altitude
shows up in red. There are other features too numerous to mention here.
All are well thought out and executed. Do I love this thing? You bet I do!
It beats the glass cockpit that I flew in B-767's by a mile and is much easier
to use.
I also like my Dynon.
Jim Cone
3-Peat Offender
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