---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 04/07/04: 55 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:07 AM - Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? (Jim Jewell) 2. 02:55 AM - Re: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? (Jim Sears) 3. 03:34 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Jim Sears) 4. 05:15 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Alex Peterson) 5. 05:24 AM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Ollie Washburn) 6. 06:37 AM - Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Hal / Carol Kempthorne) 7. 07:33 AM - Re: Dynon OAT Probe (Lockamy, Jack L) 8. 07:36 AM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Donald Mei) 9. 09:35 AM - Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Dave) 10. 10:06 AM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Scott Bilinski) 11. 10:10 AM - Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff (Paul Besing) 12. 10:40 AM - Re: Most efficient climb (Michael McGee) 13. 11:00 AM - stupid whining complaint (Jeff Dowling) 14. 11:18 AM - Was - Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? ...Now RV-15 "the Jet" (C. Rabaut) 15. 11:22 AM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Stein Bruch) 16. 11:40 AM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Richard Tasker) 17. 12:22 PM - Re: Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Bob U.) 18. 12:34 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Michael McGee) 19. 01:14 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (JOHN STARN) 20. 01:22 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Charlie & Tupper England) 21. 01:23 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (LeastDrag93066@aol.com) 22. 01:27 PM - Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Frederick Oldenburg) 23. 01:36 PM - trim tab position (glennpaulwilkinson) 24. 01:37 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Dj Merrill) 25. 02:08 PM - FAA Good Guy (John) 26. 02:17 PM - >> Re: Stupid Whining Complaint (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 27. 02:46 PM - Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown (Matthew Brandes) 28. 02:56 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 29. 03:00 PM - Re: trim tab position (Scott Bilinski) 30. 03:10 PM - Neat Airport Web Site (Crosley, Rich) 31. 03:58 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Kysh) 32. 04:31 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Alex Peterson) 33. 04:48 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Scott.Fink@microchip.com) 34. 05:09 PM - Re: Interiors by Becky Orndorff (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 35. 05:22 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot (linn walters) 36. 05:31 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Dj Merrill) 37. 05:39 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (Jim Anglin) 38. 05:59 PM - Re: trim tab position (William Davis) 39. 06:25 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Bill Dube) 40. 06:47 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)) 41. 06:53 PM - Re: Most efficient climb (Kevin Horton) 42. 06:54 PM - Re: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch (Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)) 43. 06:59 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (RVEIGHTA@aol.com) 44. 07:07 PM - Re: stupid whining complaint (John D. Heath) 45. 07:08 PM - Re: trim tab position (RVEIGHTA@aol.com) 46. 07:39 PM - >Re:Trim Tab Position (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 47. 08:04 PM - Re: FAA Good Guy (smoothweasel@juno.com) 48. 08:22 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 49. 08:25 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (G B) 50. 08:30 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Jerry Springer) 51. 08:50 PM - Re: Rudder Stiffener Confusion (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 52. 08:52 PM - Re: trim tab position (Larry Bowen) 53. 09:30 PM - Re: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list (Stein Bruch) 54. 09:46 PM - Catto Props (HCRV6@aol.com) 55. 11:28 PM - Re: Blue Mountain EFIS (Jim and Bev Cone) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:07:26 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Thanks Rob for forwarding Scott McDaniels email. Ah! that familiar voice!! I can only hope that Scott's description of information, ideas, and experiences put the "finish drill / Deburr Pre-Punched holes dimple thread to bed at least for this go around. I am sure I am not alone in stating; Scott McDaniels input on this list is sourly missed by a good many of us RV listers if not the vast majority. Of course the newer arrivals to the RV community might not recognize the name due to his not exactly recent absence. For the newer people on the list entering the name < Scott McDaniels > into the search engine of the archives will provide the view from the eye what had been a kind of unofficial liaison with the Van's insiders and a wealth of answers to a long list of questions, many of which I expect will still be relevant. Thank you Scott McDaniels where ever you are!! {[:-) Thanks again Rob Jim in Kelowna Content repeated do not archive ---- Original Message ----- From: "Rob W M Shipley" Subject: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" > > > Everyone please note that Scott McDaniels has gone to the trouble to give us an unofficial Van's view of this topic and afford him a courteous reception - unless you wish to ensure that he won't contribute again. > > I received this directly from Scott today. > Subject: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > > > Hi Rob, > I am not currently a subscriber on the list but I do cruise the archives on occasion to see what the latest hot topic is. > I saw yours and thought I would take a moment to reply, but I didn't even have time to read the other responses so sorry if this is some what redundant. > I also am not sure how much of the below is yours or if some is pasted in but I will answer some of the questions to hopefully finally put to bed some of the confusion and miss information about what has been done in the past at Van's in regards to assembling without drilling. > > I work in the proto shop at Vans and have been there about 8 years, so I have been involved in the evolution to the current level of P.P. holes in all of the kits. > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" > > >Too many experts and not enough pragmatism. > > >Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a problem > here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a quick > spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these specs. > > Regardless of what the specs are, if you build to the recommendations in the manual then you are building to the same standard > as was used to build test items that were static loaded to verify that the structures met the loads that they were designed too. > If you feel better starting with a hole size that is a few thousandths smaller then go for it. I don't think any one at Van's has a problem with that as long as you are using dimple dies that have a pilot that is not stretching the holes when you insert it (the pilot is a clearance fit to the hole). > > >Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr and > dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as twice > the allowed tolerance. > > See my response above... all the testing was done with parts constructed this way. > If you do not feel good about it the use a smaller hole. > > >You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years so it > works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better, i.e. > the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the recommended rivet > size is more likely to work. > > This has nothing to do with recommended rivet size. They are spec.ed by what we > used that did work when building the proto parts. Some times sizes are called out wrong > (we're not perfect) but it is surely not because the hole is a few thousandths bigger than a Mil. spec calls for. > > > I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like > this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans considered > it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them. > > And I have no problem with it either unless you are using dimple dies with a pilot that doesn't fit the hole. I do have a problem with Not final sizing the hole from what is punched, but just slamming dimple dies into them. > > >Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures > is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are > left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he has > ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs. Look > at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but definitely > ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and deburring. > "If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a > chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round smooth > hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit." > If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium monocoque > planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many > of us have been alive . > > How many of those airplanes are 100% flush riveted on the exterior? Not many. When you dimple, you are stretching the material. If you had to force the dimple pilot into the hole before dimpling you stretched it even more. Now if all of this was done on holes that had never been up sized, you have a strong potential for cracking. The punching process leaves a hole edge condition that is the same as a sheared edge on a skin at best. Some times it is worse because of a punch tool that is getting slightly dull or has a little more clearance that when it was new. > It is for this reason that it is recommended in the manual that the holes be final sized. True, it may not a perfect hole but that is ok. That is what made riveted construction of aircraft so desirable. > > >He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably > all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any suggestions > from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging > these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers. > > Not true! Builders are told to deburr the edges of all parts (this would include lightening holes). > In our shop we use a small scotch bright wheel in a die grinder to deburr/smooth all lightening holes and we assume builders are doing similar. > > >Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole without match > drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own self, > face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go ahead > &punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his *only* > answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they > preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now." > > I think you are reading more into this than you should. That in no way means that we would punch them full size if we were confident that the would all line up properly. > > >I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had experimented with > this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true > but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane they > were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him. > > There was never an "Experiment". It was a time saving short cut only when building structures that we were using for static testing. It was mentioned in an RVator only to describe how well the pre punch design work was going and to describe how well the parts fit. It was never intended to present a process that should be used to assemble the kit. > We have never done this on any structures that we intended to fly. The cracking issue is related to the life of the structure with thousands of load cycles. The structures we did this on only had to last through 1 or 2 load cycles. > > >Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers dangerous for > example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He is also > notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on this > topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our theorists > believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why. > > >There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole condition, > size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and riveting punched > holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen > in aircraft riveted together without match drilling > > Lets see... I have not seen a large campaign calling for an outsider evaluation of the wing engineering on any of the RV models, do builders acccept on blind faith that the wings are designed properly but they will not acccept it when the manual suggests that they final size all of the holes before dimpling? > > In my opinion, the absolute bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or probably anywhere else can tell you with absolute certainty that you will or will not have cracking problems on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. We have no experience or data to prove it one way or the other. This is something that would not likely happen right away. There are probably RV's now flying that were build without drilling. The owner/builders may even be preaching to everyone that "They haven't had any problems". That information of no value. Tell us after the airplane is 10 years old. > I doubt very much that if Van's endorsed skipping the drilling, and 10 years from now a bunch of RV's started to have cracking problems, I doubt those owners would consider it much a consolation for Van's to say "Sorry, I guess we were wrong. From now on we recommend builders don't do that any more". > So, If anyone is willing to experiment, and take a chance, to save maybe 20 hours of work ( a very small amount considering the total number of hours most builders expend) on the construction of there RV , then go for it. Just realize that no mater how many experts you talk to, or how many other builders have already done it, only time will tell wether you made the right decision. > > I hope at least some of this is of some value but I have to close with the standard disclaimer dribble... > This is my own personal opinion and does not necessarily match the policy's or opinions of my employer. > > P.S. feel free to share this as you wish, as long as you promise to refrain from flaming me without a chance to respond since I'm not on the list :-) > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:12 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes - ? --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > Thanks Rob for forwarding Scott McDaniels email. You betcha!!! I was just talking about him the other day and how we've lost some good contributors to the list because of flaming. He was one of those who contributed often and was flamed one too many times. Like most good contributors who have left, he didn't need to be on the list and didn't need the flaming he got too often. Like too many others, he left. > Ah! that familiar voice!! > I can only hope that Scott's description of information, ideas, and > experiences put the "finish drill / Deburr Pre-Punched holes dimple thread > to bed at least for this go around. It will return unless Van's makes the decision to change the manual to better reflect the reasons for doing the match drilling. Doing it on the RV-list is good for our debate; but, it really needs to be in the manual. Make it an issue before that first piece is drilled or not drilled. Look at primers. They did put some brief info there about that. Primers has been one of our better issues in the past. If the manual talks about drilling in the same manner Scott approached it, there may be a little twinge of doubt in not doing it so that the builder will just go ahead and do it. It could be a simple insert into the manual so that the manual doesn't have to be changed. Just saying it's for parts alignment is not enough if there really is another issue. > I am sure I am not alone in stating; Scott McDaniels input on this list is > sourly missed by a good many of us RV listers if not the vast majority. Of > course the newer arrivals to the RV community might not recognize the name > due to his not exactly recent absence. And, hopefully those who caused him to leave have also left. :-) We can't very well learn from others unless those others are allowed to stay without being abused by those who feel their way is the only way. All that does is cause enough friction that the more talented in the discussion just say to heck with it and get off the list. I'm sure Scott had more to do than just hold our hands. Don't get me wrong. Debate is good as long as it's done tactfully. However, we have a history of having it go sour and causing contributors to leave. The discussion we had last week went sour just because I was challenging the issue to learn more so that I could better reflect those ideas to others. I got flamed one more time. I haven't left because I'm too darned stubborn. Besides, I need help, as well. When I asked for help on my manuals, I was rewarded very nicely and really appreciate that. Those responders did not have to take their time to help me; but, they did. That's what this list is all about. Some never seem to grasp that. > For the newer people on the list entering the name < Scott McDaniels > into > the search engine of the archives will provide the view from the eye what > had been a kind of unofficial liaison with the Van's insiders and a wealth > of answers to a long list of questions, many of which I expect will still be > relevant. I'll bet many of his answers were passed by those powers to be at Van's. I always found his answers to be rational and to the point. Not so for many of the other listers who would respond and flame him for not having the same opinion they had. Not good. > Thank you Scott McDaniels where ever you are!! {[:-) > > Thanks again Rob Yes, thanks to both of you. Rob, see if you can convince Scott to get back on the RV-list in the general RV section so that we can learn from the guys at the source. Otherwise, we only speculate on what the thinking is at Van's. It's good to have someone on the list who is in the know about what the thinking is there. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:34:46 AM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Most efficient climb --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > On this question of what is the best climb rate, it should also be a concern > that we are flying in a system where others are flying other, and opposite, > headings according to the hemispheric rule. If we climb more slowly, we are > spending more time is the other pilot's air space regarding altitude. This may be a minor point unless one is flying around a high density area. I'm sure Indiana is very much like Kentucky in that one has ample flying space. If one is worried about the other traffic, one might want to consider flight following, etc,. to be more aware of other traffic during the climb out or decent while enroute. > Van wrote an article about this several years ago; I think it was in the > RVator. My flaky memory is telling me that he mentioned something around > 120 mph instead of the expected ~90 mph. The idea was that the low > aspect ratio wing causes (induced?) drag to go up more when you get down > in the 90 mph range. He pointed out that if you climb at calculated > 'best climb' using traditional techniques (1.? x stall), then try the > same throttle setting but climb at ~120 mph, you will see the same > *rate* of climb but will cover a lot more territory on the way to cruise > altitude. I've found that Scooter climbs out very well at 120kts. That means I've got the nose down a tad more than Van recommends. I can see over the nose, get a decent climb rate that won't burst anyone's ear drums, and get the added benefit of not overheating the engine. It also puts me closer to my destination during the climb out. When going places with my friends, they tend to climb faster than I and are awed by my being out in front of them so fast when I'm the last one to take off. Well, part of it is because I'm not going up as fast as I'm going forward. I just smile as I pass each of them as they climb for the heavens; and, I get to the destination first. Of course, having the fastest airplane with the least available power adds to the insult. :-) I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up significantly. I'm not really sure about this and may be totally wrong; but, I also get the notion that when I put Scooter in a high rate of climb, more oil goes out the crankcase vent. It just seems that every time I do it, I see more oil on the bottom of the fuselage. I see no sense in abusing the engine; so, I climb out at a more comfortable attitude and let things work better for Scooter and me. If I don't, Scooter costs me more to operate by having me replace engine pieces and parts. I prefer to not do that. Let me give one example of it's being good to have that nose down. One day, I was climbing out from an airport in central KY to return to home base. I was talking with another pilot who was approaching the airport from the opposite direction. Little did I know that we were on a collision course with each other at a pretty good pace. He was flying a Malibu and wasn't slouching along. Fortunately, it was a clear day; and, I saw him in time to deviate a little so we wouldn't hit each other. Had I been doing an excellerated climb out, I'd have never seen him. Of course, one could argue that I might not have been as low, either; but, I'd much rather have that nose down so I can see ahead. That day, it worked for me. Remember, a good portion of mid-air accidents happen around airports on clear days. This one could have been one of those statistics had I not used my conservative climb out practices so that I could see over the nose. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) EAA Tech Counselor do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:15:01 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Most efficient climb --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up > significantly. I'm not really sure about this and may be > totally wrong; but, I also get the notion that when I put I have found the only way to keep the engine from overheating (without this technique I'll see 425F +) on long climbs in the summer is to keep the throttle full, mixture full rich, prop back to around 2500 when the MAP drops to about 27" or so. I put the pitch angle around 120 knots (this does obscure the forward view with essentially full power). Full rich delivers about 16gph at sea level to an O360, but this fuel hog phase only takes several minutes given the climb rates of these planes. I burn perhaps 1 to 1.5 gallons to get to altitudes like 8k', but the engine stays much, much cooler doing this sort of climb. And yes, I'm aware that I don't have peak power using these settings, but engine temperatures are much more important to me. Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 452 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:24:28 AM PST US From: "Ollie Washburn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine Shake During Shutdown --> RV-List message posted by: "Ollie Washburn" Gabe, this has worked for me on all the Lycs I've had .Run the eng at about 1000 rpm, pull the mixture and as the engine is shutting down, close the throttle all the way. Ollie 6A FL. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabe A Ferrer" Subject: RV-List: Engine Shake During Shutdown > --> RV-List message posted by: "Gabe A Ferrer" > > Does anyone know of a way to reduce the magnitude of the Lycoming engine shakes during engine shutdown? > > It just seems unnecessary for the engine to do this. > > It's annoying and the vibration may harm the engine accessories. > > My O-360 A1A has done it from the first time that I ran it. > > Gabe A Ferrer > RV6 NN2GX 108 hours > South Florida > Email: ferrergm@bellsouth.net > Cell: 561 758 8894 > Night Phone: 561 622 0960 > Fax: 561 622 0960 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:37:17 AM PST US From: Hal / Carol Kempthorne Subject: RV-List: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch --> RV-List message posted by: Hal / Carol Kempthorne At 10:15 PM 4/5/2004, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > I really don't understand how the little box can maintain its balance so > well >without any outside assistance, but it can! :-) GPS is not needed to keep the wings level. I doubt that it is needed to hold a heading either. Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of 2002 that they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my Dynon is made and why it is so cheap. Trio too? These kinds of parts are combined to create AHRS - attitude heading reference systems. Look how nicely the Dynon EFIS indicates attitude. It shouldn't be too hard for Dynon to include autopilot functionality in their next version. It could even be a three axis machine. GPS not needed for these functions. It is hard on the brain, trying to understand how our aircraft's attitude can be maintained without the usual spinning wheels. Grandpa probably had trouble understanding how the digital watch could tell time without a pendulum too. We are in the age of computers with eyes, ears, arms and legs. Next thing you know, we will just start the engine, punch in the destination code and the systems will do the rest. K. H. (Hal) Kempthorne RV6-a N7HK - Three trips to OSH now. PRB (El Paso de Robles, CA) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:54 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon OAT Probe From: "Lockamy, Jack L" --> RV-List message posted by: "Lockamy, Jack L" Laird, Last night I successfully 'calibrated' the Dynon OAT probe. The EFIS will allow increases/decreases in the displayed temperature (Celsius ONLY). I really wish Dynon had given the user the option to select Celsius or Fahrenheit. My plan is to set the Dynon OAT after engine start based on the ATIS info (if available) and then see how far off the Grand Rapids may/may not be. When there's no ATIS information available.... I'll wet my finger, stick it up in the air, and take a wild ass guess! (At least that's how my grandfather showed me how to do it...) :-) Take care, Jack ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:15 AM PST US From: "Donald Mei" Subject: RV-List: Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown --> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" I do the following procedure just as a means to assist keeping the engine clean, but it results in a very smooth, immediate shut down with no shake. (I understand that it may not actually help keep the engine clean, but it was recommended by Lycoming and it seems to make a lot of sense) With the engine at a slightly elevated idle, slowly bring the mixture back until some roughness is detected. Leave it there for a few seconds, then pull to idle cut off. The engine will shut down as if you had turned off the key. Don Mei (Back on 100LL since they put alcohol in auto fuel) "All of us need to be reminded that the federal government did not create the states; the states created the federal government!"---Ronald Reagan ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:35:45 AM PST US From: "Dave" (by way of Matt Dralle ) Subject: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" (by way of Matt Dralle ) I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A is stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck, parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't pulled the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II radio and a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes. They want to sell it as a package. How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus? I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8. Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to change out the sump? Thanks for your time!! Dave ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:58 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I am no engine guru, but from what I have read here, if the cylinders and crank are serviceable the price for a good rebuildable core is about 8k. Maybe a little more with all those accessories. That sump could be a problem with it facing the rear. New sumps are $$. At 09:34 AM 4/7/04 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" (by way of Matt >Dralle ) > > > I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the > accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner > doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A >is > stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck, > parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't pulled > the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system > mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty > much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II >radio and > a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled > but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes. > They want to sell it as a package. > > How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus? > I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8. > Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to > change out the sump? > > Thanks for your time!! > > Dave > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:53 AM PST US From: "Paul Besing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" It was very straightforward. Probably had 20 hours in installing everything from firewall back to the baggage area. Turned out very nice for a novice such as myself. I'd highly recommend her interior. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold RV-10 Soon http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Hamblen" Subject: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff > --> RV-List message posted by: "Travis Hamblen" > > I am starting to think about overhauling/redoing my interior. I absolutely > love the seats by Becky Orndorff, but wanted some feedback on her interior > products. I understand that she ships you the fabrics with the general > outline for needed cuts and so on. I am a fairly handy guy and I am sure I > can do an at least average job. My question is for anyone that has used her > product is just how straight forward is it and does her video help? Any > input from experience, even some pictures of your finished product would be > GREATLY appreciated! > > > Travis Hamblen > > RV-6A 330hrs @ VGT > > > -- > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:25 AM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: RE: RV-List: Most efficient climb --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee At 05:13 2004-04-07, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > > I've found that a hard climb will cause the engine to warm up > > significantly. I'm not really sure about this and may be > > totally wrong; but, I also get the notion that when I put > >I have found the only way to keep the engine from overheating (without >this technique I'll see 425F +) on long climbs in the summer is to keep >the throttle full, mixture full rich, prop back to around 2500 when the >MAP drops to about 27" or so. I put the pitch angle around 120 knots >(this does obscure the forward view with essentially full power). Full >rich delivers about 16gph at sea level to an O360, but this fuel hog >phase only takes several minutes given the climb rates of these planes. >I burn perhaps 1 to 1.5 gallons to get to altitudes like 8k', but the >engine stays much, much cooler doing this sort of climb. And yes, I'm >aware that I don't have peak power using these settings, but engine >temperatures are much more important to me. > >Alex Peterson >Maple Grove, MN >RV6-A N66AP 452 hours As we used to tell our jump plane pilots and you'll hear from a lot of old timers - ".. fuel is cheaper than cylinders." Mike McGee VAF Home Wing/EAA Chapter 105 Flyin Coordinator June 19th, 2004 Scappoose, OR ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:38 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it would sure be nice if you can change it. Do not arcive please Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 58 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Autopilot Itch > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > Richard Sipp wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Sipp" > > > > > > While I could certainly be mistaken, I think one of the major differences in > > the TruTrak and Trio products is that the TruTrak does not depend on an > > external GPS for it attitude information. Loose your GPS signal and the > > TruTrak can still control the airplane. From reviewing the Trio web sight > > it appears that an external GPS is required to provide or at least augment > > the attitude reference. > > > > Dick Sipp > > RV4 > > RV10 > > > Dick, both the TruTrak and EZ-Pilot use GPS in the attitude solution. > And, both systems are capable of remarkable wing-leveler performance > without GPS input. However, without GPS, both system's performance will > degrade over time and headings will require manual input after a > significant time without GPS data. As far as I can tell, there is no > appreciable difference in the way both systems integrate GPS. > > I can tell you from first-hand knowledge that Trio has recently enhanced > the no-GPS performance of the EZ-Pilot in a substantial manner. I really > don't understand how the little box can maintain its balance so well > without any outside assistance, but it can! :-) > > Sam > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:04 AM PST US From: "C. Rabaut" Subject: RV-List: Was - Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? ...Now RV-15 "the Jet" --> RV-List message posted by: "C. Rabaut" Wow.... so the "rumors" are TRUE !!! I just read Scott McDaniels' statement "> In my opinion, the absolute bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or probably anywhere else can tell you with absolute certainty that you will or will not have cracking problems on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. " Did you get that? "....on your RV 10 or 15 ... " So Vans is going to make an RV-15 (years from now). *I heard it's gonna be a 2 Seat, tandem, twin jet. I'm sending in my deposit right now! ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob W M Shipley Subject: RV-List: Fw: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" > > > Everyone please note that Scott McDaniels has gone to the trouble to give us an unofficial Van's view of this topic and afford him a courteous reception - unless you wish to ensure that he won't contribute again. > > I received this directly from Scott today. > Subject: Off-line reply to your - Finish Drill / Deburr Pre-punched holes? > > > Hi Rob, > I am not currently a subscriber on the list but I do cruise the archives on occasion to see what the latest hot topic is. > I saw yours and thought I would take a moment to reply, but I didn't even have time to read the other responses so sorry if this is some what redundant. > I also am not sure how much of the below is yours or if some is pasted in but I will answer some of the questions to hopefully finally put to bed some of the confusion and miss information about what has been done in the past at Van's in regards to assembling without drilling. > > I work in the proto shop at Vans and have been there about 8 years, so I have been involved in the evolution to the current level of P.P. holes in all of the kits. > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob W M Shipley" > > >Too many experts and not enough pragmatism. > > >Tedd McHenry kindly posted the links for the mil rivet specs. There's a problem > here not addressed by those who feel Van's recommendations are akin to a quick > spritz with holy water. Follow directions and you will NOT meet these specs. > > Regardless of what the specs are, if you build to the recommendations in the manual then you are building to the same standard > as was used to build test items that were static loaded to verify that the structures met the loads that they were designed too. > If you feel better starting with a hole size that is a few thousandths smaller then go for it. I don't think any one at Van's has a problem with that as long as you are using dimple dies that have a pilot that is not stretching the holes when you insert it (the pilot is a clearance fit to the hole). > > >Charlie England's post echoes my own experiences. Match drill, deburr and > dimple and your hole will be oversize on the thinner skins by as much as twice > the allowed tolerance. > > See my response above... all the testing was done with parts constructed this way. > If you do not feel good about it the use a smaller hole. > > >You can't buy #41 dimple dies and everyone has done it this way for years so it > works. If you match drill with a #41 instead of a #40 it works better, i.e. > the hole is tighter, you need less swell from the rivet and the recommended rivet > size is more likely to work. > > This has nothing to do with recommended rivet size. They are spec.ed by what we > used that did work when building the proto parts. Some times sizes are called out wrong > (we're not perfect) but it is surely not because the hole is a few thousandths bigger than a Mil. spec calls for. > > > I'm sure the theoreticians out there won't like > this suggestions much, however no one at EAA, AOPA and the guys at Vans considered > it a bad idea, when I discussed it with them. > > And I have no problem with it either unless you are using dimple dies with a pilot that doesn't fit the hole. I do have a problem with Not final sizing the hole from what is punched, but just slamming dimple dies into them. > > >Paul Parashak is concerned about "one of the surest ways to accelerate metal failures > is to introduce a flaw. These miniscule cracks and stress areas that are > left in are prime areas for crack propagation." I cannot believe that he has > ever examined the holes which the average builder drills and deburrs. Look > at one with a magnifying glass. They are ugly to varying degrees but definitely > ugly. Cy Galley has a good grasp of the reality of drilling and deburring. > "If you are getting so anal about drilling, I would propose that you use a > chucking reamer instead of a drill. At least that way you will get a round smooth > hole. You don't get smooth or round with a drill bit." > If irregularities around the hole are significant, many riveted aluminium monocoque > planes would not have remained flying for as long, (or longer), than many > of us have been alive . > > How many of those airplanes are 100% flush riveted on the exterior? Not many. When you dimple, you are stretching the material. If you had to force the dimple pilot into the hole before dimpling you stretched it even more. Now if all of this was done on holes that had never been up sized, you have a strong potential for cracking. The punching process leaves a hole edge condition that is the same as a sheared edge on a skin at best. Some times it is worse because of a punch tool that is getting slightly dull or has a little more clearance that when it was new. > It is for this reason that it is recommended in the manual that the holes be final sized. True, it may not a perfect hole but that is ok. That is what made riveted construction of aircraft so desirable. > > >He also makes the very pertinent observation that presumably > all the lightening holes are punched by Van's. I haven't heard any suggestions > from Van's or our list experts regarding the necessity of enlarging > these to remove the work hardened edge and the attendant stress risers. > > Not true! Builders are told to deburr the edges of all parts (this would include lightening holes). > In our shop we use a small scotch bright wheel in a die grinder to deburr/smooth all lightening holes and we assume builders are doing similar. > > >Vans has not totally dismissed the idea of dimpling the punched hole without match > drilling. Charlie England's discussion with Van "I asked Van, his own self, > face to face, in person, at OSH last summer when they were going to go ahead > &punch the holes 'full size' &save us all some build time. His answer (his *only* > answer) was that there was enough variation in drilling patterns that they > preferred to continue the match drilling thing for now." > > I think you are reading more into this than you should. That in no way means that we would punch them full size if we were confident that the would all line up properly. > > >I also had asked Van's about the rumour I'd heard that they had experimented with > this by building a wing or wings without drilling and was told it was true > but too early to make any comments. I didn't think to ask them what plane they > were for or if they would fly them. I'll ask Ken K. next time I see him. > > There was never an "Experiment". It was a time saving short cut only when building structures that we were using for static testing. It was mentioned in an RVator only to describe how well the pre punch design work was going and to describe how well the parts fit. It was never intended to present a process that should be used to assemble the kit. > We have never done this on any structures that we intended to fly. The cracking issue is related to the life of the structure with thousands of load cycles. The structures we did this on only had to last through 1 or 2 load cycles. > > >Van is most certainly not reluctant to tackle issues he considers dangerous for > example his stand on not using engines larger than the O 320 in a 9. He is also > notoriously conservative and yet he has not made any attempt to take on this > topic in a similar forthright fashion. This is surprising if, as our theorists > believe, this is a serious problem in practice. I wonder why. > > >There are many discrepancies between our practice and theory - hole condition, > size etc. and it would seem that little is known about dimpling and riveting punched > holes in practice. I have read nothing about actual stress cracks seen > in aircraft riveted together without match drilling > > Lets see... I have not seen a large campaign calling for an outsider evaluation of the wing engineering on any of the RV models, do builders acccept on blind faith that the wings are designed properly but they will not acccept it when the manual suggests that they final size all of the holes before dimpling? > > In my opinion, the absolute bottom line is this... No one at Van's, or probably anywhere else can tell you with absolute certainty that you will or will not have cracking problems on your RV 10 or 15 years from now. We have no experience or data to prove it one way or the other. This is something that would not likely happen right away. There are probably RV's now flying that were build without drilling. The owner/builders may even be preaching to everyone that "They haven't had any problems". That information of no value. Tell us after the airplane is 10 years old. > I doubt very much that if Van's endorsed skipping the drilling, and 10 years from now a bunch of RV's started to have cracking problems, I doubt those owners would consider it much a consolation for Van's to say "Sorry, I guess we were wrong. From now on we recommend builders don't do that any more". > So, If anyone is willing to experiment, and take a chance, to save maybe 20 hours of work ( a very small amount considering the total number of hours most builders expend) on the construction of there RV , then go for it. Just realize that no mater how many experts you talk to, or how many other builders have already done it, only time will tell wether you made the right decision. > > I hope at least some of this is of some value but I have to close with the standard disclaimer dribble... > This is my own personal opinion and does not necessarily match the policy's or opinions of my employer. > > P.S. feel free to share this as you wish, as long as you promise to refrain from flaming me without a chance to respond since I'm not on the list :-) > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:22:18 AM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Dave, I have the exact same engein on my RV6, which I bought used (750SNEW) and I now have 200+hrs trouble free hrs on it. Here are some things about that engine: 1) I believe the -B4A's didn't originally have rear facing induction. Mine is original and the FI servo is mounted vertically on the sump, and all the paperwork I have says that's the way it should be, so it appears someone may have swapped sumps, and probably hence the lack of a data plate on your sump. 2) The -B4A does indeed have a solid crank (aerobatic), so no C/S prop on this engine (no problem, I have the metal sensenich and love it). If a c/s is in your future, plan on $2-5K for a hollow crank. 3) Mags are Slicks by default, but E.I. is a good option (I hear, and will do this summer). 4) The FI (Bendix system) is just fine and have been proven for many years. One thing to see how new it is, take a look at the servo and look at the rubber diaphrams. You can see them sandwiched on the servo...if they are black, they are the old type rubber and need replaced. If they are orange, they are the newer style and probably indicates an overhaul or new in the last 10 years. Also, if you can look at the throat of it, you can get an indication of time/condition. How do the impact tube look, is the throat clean or dirty?? Check the Throttle/Mixture are bushings for movement and check over the mixture adjustment arm. All can be indicators of time, as the throttle/mixture arm bushings all wear with time.... 5) There is a minor but pesky 50hr AD on the crank flange of this engine if you are doing aerobatics above the utility category. Meaning, if you fly the engine above 4G's, you need to do a 50hr visual inspection on the flange. Not a big deal, as my wifferdills are under that in the -6 most of the time, so I do the inspection on a less regular basis. 6) The oil pump AD applies to this engine (Easy fix, new impellers). 7) If you're no going to install the inverted oil system, you'll need to "de-modify" the sump for regular use. It's not hard, but you have to replace the oil pickup with a finger strainer, block the forward and back oil pick openings, etc... You'll probably want to replace the rear-facing sump anyway. 8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a "non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing sumps have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then you put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo! 9) Does it have a Vernitherm or Viscosity Valve?? Check to see...many of the aerobatic/Pitts drivers used these engines with oil wide open, always flowing unrestriced through the cooler... 10) Last indicator of engine health. Look at the oil pressure adjustment bolt on the right rear of the engine...See how far it's screwed in. If there is decent amount of bolt showing, the engine probably hasn't been adjusted to death. If the castle nut/bolt head is screwed all the way down near the case, then the engine has probably been "adjusted/tinkered" to continually compensate for growing internal clearances and continued decrease in pressure. Not common, but a dead giveaway that someone is trying to "slip one past you" by falsely keeping the oil pressures high! Now for cost.....I bought mine 4 years ago for $9.5K off a hurricane flipped pitts, with 750SNEW, and all accessories, including the inverted oil system (I bolted it on and I'm still flying). The difference is I have all paperwork since the engine was new in 1986. Today, I would be more hesitant, due to the fact that a brand new ECI kit can be had for around $14.5. That being said, the accessories are worth quite a bit..... The FI system is worth between $1500-3500 hrs depending on time/condition, mags between $200-$600 for the pair, Vacuum pump should be treated as a core and overhauled by you at a cost of $100-300.00 for peace of mind. The gyros could be worth anywhere from $100-600.00+ (each) each depending on appearance, history, time, etc.. Values for accessories vary wildly, but a with no history or knowledge of time, I can guarantee they won't bring or be worth as much, even if they only have a few hours on them, because no-one knows. If I were you, I wouldn't be afraid to buy this engine as a "core" and re-build it. New cylinders are around $850.00 ea, and the bottom end can be real cheap or real expensive depending on status of the journals, cam, etc.. Overall, this is a good engine, dynafocal mount, and like all -360's, fairly bullet proof. All said and done, You want to make sure when you're finished, the overhaul comes in cheaper (with accessories) than buying a new Aerosport or ECI engine for $17-22K. Therefore, I'd probably be comfortable around the $8-9K range +/-, given the fact you have no history, logs, data plate, etc.. so everything is pretty much an unknown. Then you put $5-$8K for overhaul of the engine/accessories, and you have a fresh engine still cheaper than a new one. Note...overhaul costs can also vary wildly depending on the engine internal condition, who is doing the o/h (you or a shop) and parts used (Lyc verses ECI/Superior). Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis http://www.steinair.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dave (by way of Matt Dralle ) Subject: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave" (by way of Matt Dralle ) I have the opportunity to purchase an IO-360-B4A engine that has all the accessories and is running but absolutely no logs and the present owner doesn't know the history. It does not have a data plate, the IO-360-B4A is stamped on the sump where the data plate would go. It is a wide deck, parallel valve, rear induction 180 hp (probably solid crank haven't pulled the prop off to check) with a bendix servo fuel injection, Electro system mags (?) oil cooler, vacuum pump and all gyros (RC Allen TSOed ) Pretty much a full panel of old analog gauges and monitors, an old escort II radio and a Narco ID-825 CDI with GS and the well weathered assembled but defiantly not airworthy fuselage of one of those plastic airplanes. They want to sell it as a package. How much is something like this worth? Is the fuel injection a plus? I would like use the engine as a core to overhaul and put in an -8. Would I be able to keep the rear induction or would I need to change out the sump? Thanks for your time!! Dave ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:56 AM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker First, I agree with you 110%. However, the customary news group "etiquette" specifies that the reply be below the original message. This is so you can read what came before and then read the reply. Makes some sense if you are just "tuning in" to a discussion, but is a real pain if you are continually getting the messages. Of course, that same etiquette says that you should snip all of the previous communication except what is specifically relevant to the reply - which mostly doesn't happen. So, I doubt that we will be able to change anything as much as I agree with you. Most email can be set up to put the reply before or after the original message. I either answer at the top or interleave my reply within the previous message as appropriate. Dick Tasker Jeff Dowling wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it >would sure be nice if you can change it. > >Do not arcive please > >Jeff Dowling >RV-6A, N915JD >58 hours >Chicago/Louisville > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:28 PM PST US From: "Bob U." Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Engine Shake During Shutdown --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob U." Donald Mei wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" > >I do the following procedure just as a means to assist keeping the engine >clean, but it results in a very smooth, immediate shut down with no shake. >(I understand that it may not actually help keep the engine clean, but it >was recommended by Lycoming and it seems to make a lot of sense) > >With the engine at a slightly elevated idle, slowly bring the mixture back >until some roughness is detected. Leave it there for a few seconds, then >pull to idle cut off. > > >The engine will shut down as if you had turned off the key. > >Don Mei > ======================================= Hmmmm. Interesting..... this "as if you had turned off the key". This is the proper procedure for certain engines without an idle cut off carb. Engines shut down this manner have survive just fine over the decades. Any comments? Bob ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:25 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee At 11:00 2004-04-07, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it >would sure be nice if you can change it. > >Do not arcive please > >Jeff Dowling >RV-6A, N915JD >58 hours >Chicago/Louisville On some email lists it's expected that you put your reply at the end so the thread is in chronological order (lest you suffer the wrath of the list admin). It then becomes a matter of habit. All my email progs default the reply to the top of the message. Mike McGee VAF Home Wing/EAA Chapter 105 Flyin Coordinator June 19th, 2004 Scappoose, OR ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:11 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" The wife and I have one person that believes that everything needs to be re-sent with every reply and added comments. The last thing she sent had ALL of the 5 previous e-mails en toto and when printed out took three sheets of paper. I add my replies to the top w/ quotes or snips. One> means last one, two>> means the one before that, etc etc. That way if you don't like what I have started to say on the first line you can delete it quickly. KABONG (GBA) N561FS up and flying with a newly re-built mechanical fuel pump. Do Not Archive > --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker > > First, I agree with you 110%. However, the customary news group > "etiquette" specifies that the reply be below the original message. > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > > > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:22:53 PM PST US From: Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Jeff Dowling wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it >would sure be nice if you can change it. > >Do not arcive please > >Jeff Dowling >RV-6A, N915JD >58 hours >Chicago/Louisville > Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs. drill/dimple. :-) I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again & through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc. Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order within the covers? I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no scrolling would be needed anyway. Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at Slobovia. Charlie Slobovia Outernational Airport -7 in the oven do not archive (for real this time :-) ) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:54 PM PST US From: LeastDrag93066@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com In a message dated 04/07/2004 11:22:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, stein@steinair.com writes: 2) The -B4A does indeed have a solid crank (aerobatic), so no C/S prop on this engine (no problem, I have the metal sensenich and love it). If a c/s is in your future, plan on $2-5K for a hollow crank. Please correct this statement. No HYDRAULIC C/S prop ... An electric C/S prop will bolt on just fine. Electric governor, MT Propeller and spinner price = hydraulic governor, MT Propeller and spinner price. Jim Ayers Less Drag Products, Inc. An OEM distributor for MT Propeller. Custom designed electric C/S propellers available. www.lessdrag.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:32 PM PST US From: Frederick Oldenburg Subject: RV-List: Rudder Stiffener Confusion --> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat confused as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners. Here is my understanding of what I need to do so far: Each set of two stiffeners (R-915 A through H) comes in a single piece that you cut in the center to form two stiffeners. You're then supposed to trim the front of each individual piece to shorten the stiffener, consistent with the length of the match holes in the skin. The stiffeners need to be trimmed to taper with the rudder's shape (i.e. the side without the holes is tapered). I understand that there are guide holes for this (the little half-holes on the edge of the material). but are all the tapers in the stiffeners supposed to be the same length no matter how long the individual stiffener? Also, there seems to be a guide hole on the edge of the material but I'm confused as to where to start on the other side (the radius corner??) Thanks, Fred Fred Oldenburg RV-7A - Empennage http://www.rv.oldsack.com ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:18 PM PST US From: "glennpaulwilkinson" Subject: RV-List: trim tab position --> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" Hey guys! Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the trim tab on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab? Glenn 654RV @ OKZ 36 Hrs archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:00 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Jeff Dowling wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it >would sure be nice if you can change it. > > It is completely dependant upon the e-mail client used when replying to the message. Mine, for example, is configured to reply below the message. That makes more sense to me, then someone can read the text above, and have a context to understand what I am repying to without scrolling down to the bottom of the message, then back up to the top to read my reply. Others are different - diversity is fine... :-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:08:20 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: RV-List: FAA Good Guy --> RV-List message posted by: "John" Every once in a while someone on this list mentions good service or products they have received. Today I am goiing to shock some of you....my nomination for the Good Guy in the FAA is Denver FSDO Inspector Scott Christenson....he used his own time to give a a revised operating limitation change when the policy of that office was that they were too overloaded to handle experimentals. (a legitimate situation.) He went out of his way to help me, and he's coming down tomorrow for an inspection of a commercial operator here at our airport, and I hope he will allow me to take him to lunch... Now and then you run into someone decent. Scott fits that bill. FWIW John at Salida, CO ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:01 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >> RE: Stupid Whining Complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com I agree about repeating the message you are commenting on. If you read Matt's instructions ( Apparently NO ONE does) he says to NOT repeat lines or whole messages since the archives are getting overwhelming. I read his instructions - see RV-4 List,if you can't find them here. Bob Olds -- RV-4 , N1191X oldsfolks@aol.com A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:46:56 PM PST US From: "Matthew Brandes" Subject: RV-List: RE: Engine Shake During Shutdown --> RV-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" Gabe, There was a discussion about prop indexing a month or so ago that supposedly helped the shaking problem. Search the archives for 'prop index' and you'll see a bunch of messages. Matthew Brandes, Van's RV-9A (Wings/Fuselage) EAA Chapter 868/91/1329 www.n523rv.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:19 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: stupid whining complaint From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have already read the other chapters in this case. I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said AND READ. Thanks Mike Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie & Tupper England Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England Jeff Dowling wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading these >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over the >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss it. >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but it >would sure be nice if you can change it. > >Do not arcive please > >Jeff Dowling >RV-6A, N915JD >58 hours >Chicago/Louisville > Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs. drill/dimple. :-) I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again & through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc. Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order within the covers? I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no scrolling would be needed anyway. Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at Slobovia. Charlie Slobovia Outernational Airport -7 in the oven do not archive (for real this time :-) ) == == == == ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:17 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: trim tab position --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski There is alot of dirty air coming off the canopy so below the stab? Just a guess. At 04:45 PM 4/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" > >Hey guys! >Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the >trim tab on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab? > >Glenn >654RV @ OKZ >36 Hrs > > >archive > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:34 PM PST US From: "Crosley, Rich" Subject: RV-List: Neat Airport Web Site --> RV-List message posted by: "Crosley, Rich" Check out http://www.airnav.com/airports/ You can put in a city name and it will give you all the near by airports, fuel, fbos, nav aids, all kinds of data. Check it out Rich Crosley ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:23 PM PST US From: Kysh Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Kysh As Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) was saying: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts > below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have > already read the other chapters in this case. > > I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we > only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said > AND READ. That's fine, if there's only one thread going at any given time. As it is, nobody necessarily knows the context. Besides all that, it's just plain annoying to have to scroll down to read the context. The message has always been on the bottom, and it should always remain on the bottom-- That's the way of things, and it's a good way. Just like wings. -Kysh do not archive -- | 'Life begins at 120kias' - http://www.lapdragon.org/flying | | CBR-F4 streetbike - http://www.lapdragon.org/cbr | | 1968 Mustang fastback - http://www.lapdragon.org/mustang | | Got 'nix? - http://www.infrastructure.org/ | | KG6FOB - http://www.lapdragon.org/ham | | Give blood: Play Hockey! http://www.unixdragon.com/ | ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:04 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really > cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of > 2002 that > they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis > accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my > Dynon is made > and why it is so cheap. Trio too? I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to vibrate in an up and down fashion (this would be the roll axis "gyro"). If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite elegant. BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look for over or under steer. Alex Peterson, traumatized by not know where to put my comments, top or bottom..... Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP 452 hours http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:03 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint From: Scott.Fink@microchip.com 04/07/2004 04:47:41 PM, Serialize complete at 04/07/2004 04:47:41 PM --> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com Others of us just read the subject line, and remember the context. If necessary I scroll down to get it I find it annoying to have to scroll through the old stuff to get to the new stuff. Those of us who are willing to agree to disagree about this will keep posting at the top and appreciate others who do, and drop the thread. You are right about wings, though! Scott do not archive > Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts > below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have > already read the other chapters in this case. > As it is, nobody necessarily knows the context. Besides all that, it's just plain annoying to have to scroll down to read the context. The message has always been on the bottom, and it should always remain on the bottom-- That's the way of things, and it's a good way. Just like wings. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:09:37 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: Re: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Travis; I have installed a "Becky Orndorff" Interior Kit in our RV6A-QB. Becky even personalized our kit with some inserts that I made and sent to Becky for installation in the Seat Back covers and special fabric for the Stick Boots. Becky's kits are excellent and her video will be extremely helpful for those RV builders who are "Fabric Challenged". I would recommend adding the foam insulation kit to your overall interior kit, if you do not already have this on the interior walls of your fuselage. Everything is pre-drawn on the fabric and foam...all you do is cut & glue! I installed her firewall insulation kit as well. Everything is of exceptional quality, including the written instructions that come with your kit! But...unless you are of smaller stature...you will have problems glueing the fabric on the walls directly below your instrument panel. If you aren't small...take up yoga to improve your flexibility! Above all, take your time between each piece....measure twice, cut once! Sorry, we don't have pictures that can be attached to this e-mail, but you are welcome to come to 10G (Holmes County Airport, Ohio) and have a look! Cathy & Tom Ervin 6A-QB Tom is starting the fiberglass work on the front cowl...are we done yet??????? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Travis Hamblen" Subject: RV-List: Interiors by Becky Orndorff > --> RV-List message posted by: "Travis Hamblen" > > I am starting to think about overhauling/redoing my interior. I absolutely > love the seats by Becky Orndorff, but wanted some feedback on her interior > products. I understand that she ships you the fabrics with the general > outline for needed cuts and so on. I am a fairly handy guy and I am sure I > can do an at least average job. My question is for anyone that has used her > product is just how straight forward is it and does her video help? Any > input from experience, even some pictures of your finished product would be > GREATLY appreciated! > > > Travis Hamblen > > RV-6A 330hrs @ VGT > > > -- > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus (http://www.grisoft.com). > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:31 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Since, like Alex, I don't want to do a faux pas ..... I'll put my comments in THE MIDDLE!!!! :-D Alex Peterson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > >>Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really >>cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of >>2002 that >>they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis >>accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my >>Dynon is made >>and why it is so cheap. Trio too? >> >> > >I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's >pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be >thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the >tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to >vibrate in an up and down fashion > Does a tuning fork 'ring'? > (this would be the roll axis "gyro"). > A ring gyro? >If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer >vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little >twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the >side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain >gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these >solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the >roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply >integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite >elegant. > Oh darn .... thought I had something there. There are small "ring laser gyro's" out there, but I haven't the faintest idea how they work!!! >BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look >for over or under steer. > >Alex Peterson, traumatized by not know where to put my comments, top or >bottom..... > The counselor will be available in the morning. >Maple Grove, MN >RV6-A N66AP 452 hours > >http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ > Alex, thanks for a really informative email ..... I just couldn't resist poking a little fun. Linn ..... drives down the middle of the road do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:42 PM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts >below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have >already read the other chapters in this case. > > > To counter that, we (at least I) get a lot of e-mail, many from lists. If there isn't something at the top of the message to give me some context as to what the email is about, it is confusing. It doesn't make sense to scroll to the bottom of the message to find out what it is about, and then go back to the top to read the reply. Some of you may be able to keep a few dozen different conversations in mind at the same time, but not my tired brain... :-) -Dj ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:09 PM PST US From: "Jim Anglin" Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" I say leave out all previous posts. Either you are following the thread or when you download the messages sort them by date (IE5 will do this automatically) and then go read all the posts in order. Jim do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:01 PM PST US From: "William Davis" Subject: Re: RV-List: trim tab position --> RV-List message posted by: "William Davis" Glenn, You will find that the trim tab is much more effective when placed in the clean air above the horiz. stab. Bill RV-8 N48WD Tiger-Kat ----- Original Message ----- From: "glennpaulwilkinson" Subject: RV-List: trim tab position > --> RV-List message posted by: "glennpaulwilkinson" > > Hey guys! > Can someone tell me the best position on rudder for the placement of the trim tab on an RV-4....above or below the horizontal stab? > > Glenn > 654RV @ OKZ > 36 Hrs > > > archive > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:57 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Stiffener Confusion --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 01:27 PM 4/7/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg > >I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat >confused as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners. messed up several before I got it right. First, cut, label, and shape all the "regular" stiffeners and set them in position. Get them out of the way so you don't mix them up with the ones you are going to cut down. Triple check before you trim anything. After you mark the stiffeners for trimming, actually set them in position to confirm that the holes are going to line up, then trim the longest one and check to be sure you have done that one correctly before you trim any of the others. (If you mess up the longest one, you might be able to trim it further and use it for a shorter one.) The instructions don't make it 100% clear which end you are supposed to trim or where you are supposed to measure from. Once you finally figure it out, the instructions make perfect sense. But by then it doesn't matter, does it? :-) I seem to remember that you are supposed to trim the front of the stiffener. (I could very well be wrong.) The back taper thus stays "stock." I cut the stiffeners center to center on the guide holes then rounded the corners to the point where the guide holes vanished. Seemed to fit OK. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:16 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch From: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" Last year I used 3D magnetometers and ADXL's accelerometers to measure ocean wave parameters using a floating buoy (for my Master's thesis, now complete). In many ways, the problems (notably the lack of reliable absolute references) are the same as attitude measurement in an aircraft, except that the aircraft situation is worse. For my ocean waves, I could assume a long-term average acceleration, velocity, and displacement of 0. In aircraft, such an assumption (whilst true for the *very* long term), isn't useful for determining attitude in the short-term. In cars, the problem is simplified somewhat since the car is (almost certainly) approximately upright, and has a more-or-less constant 1G pull more-or-less downwards. Essentially, to determine attitude from a rate gyro such as you describe, you must integrate the measured rotations. Every time you measure, you get an error, so your calculated attitude becomes less and less accurate as time goes by. Therefore you need to periodically reset the attitude to a known position. This of course applies to mechanical rate gyros as well, where (for example) the pilot must reset the heading gyro to the compass about once every 20 minutes, whilst in straight-and-level (non-accelarating) flight. I'd like to know exactly how Dynon does it. Does the pilot fly S&L and press a button to tell the Dynon that its now a good time to reset? Or does it determine S&L by some other means? Does it have 3D magnetometers (which introduces a whole host of other problems due to the variations in the Earth's magnetic field) to measure attitude, or does it have some other sensor? Maybe use GPS? Incidentally, there's been some interesting work done on attitude determination using GPS eg http://www.geomatics.ucalgary.ca/research/GPSRes/attitude.html and http://waas.stanford.edu/~wwu/papers/gps/PDF/att_for_aircraft_rch1998.pd f. Whilst this is used in bulldozers and such-like, it's still in the multi-thousand dollar price-bracket (ie not my price bracket!) Frank -----Original Message----- > Solid state accelerometers and magnetometers have gotten really > cheap. Analog Devices said in a press release in the fall of > 2002 that > they had shipped over 100 million of one of their ADXL202E two axis > accelerometers! These now sell for under $20. That's how my > Dynon is made > and why it is so cheap. Trio too? I suspect these things do not use accelerometers to handle the plane's pitch and roll. More likely, they use solid state gyros, which can be thought of as a little tuning fork. So that I can describe it, say the tines of the fork are pointed forward in the plane, and are made to vibrate in an up and down fashion (this would be the roll axis "gyro"). If the plane is rolling one way or the other, the tines no longer vibrate directly toward and away from each other, but develop a little twist (during the actual rolling motion only). Then, built into the side of a tine of the fork is a small strain gauge. This small strain gauge detects the tine's twist. So, if you are still with me, these solid state gyros simply put out a voltage which is proportional to the roll rate, so many volts/degree/second. Electronics then simply integrate the stream of voltage to determine roll position. Quite elegant. BTW, automobiles use these in stability augmentation systems, to look for over or under steer. Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL (0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of Learning. Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your future ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:48 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Most efficient climb --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England > >Scott Bilinski wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski >> >>So your going on a long X-country What is the most efficient climb? Blast >>right on up to altitude and go, or, do a long cruise climb, somewhere in >>between, what speed? Has anyone really crunched the numbers and figured >>this out. I figured one of you test pilot types know this stuff. Oh, the >>whole point is to get from point A to point B (this case 700 miles) the >>fastest at 8k feet, depending on the wind of course while using the least >>amount of fuel. >> >> >>Scott Bilinski >>Eng dept 305 >>Phone (858) 657-2536 >>Pager (858) 502-5190 >> >Van wrote an article about this several years ago; I think it was in the >RVator. My flaky memory is telling me that he mentioned something around >120 mph instead of the expected ~90 mph. The idea was that the low >aspect ratio wing causes (induced?) drag to go up more when you get down >in the 90 mph range. He pointed out that if you climb at calculated >'best climb' using traditional techniques (1.? x stall), then try the >same throttle setting but climb at ~120 mph, you will see the same >*rate* of climb but will cover a lot more territory on the way to cruise >altitude. > >I don't remember if he mentioned whether fp or c/s made a difference in >these numbers. > >I can say that I've tried it on 2 different fp -4's & my neighbor has >tried it in his fp -8, and the effect was easy to see. > >Kevin, can you give a sanity check on this? This is all quite plausible, especially for an aircraft with a fixed-pitch prop, as long as we allow that the rate of climb will vary a bit, and not be _exactly_ the same. The engine at full throttle would make more rpm, and hence more power, the faster the climb speed. This would tend to provide a flatter top to the rate of climb vs speed curve. An aircraft with a constant-speed prop would have a less flat top to the rate of climb vs speed curve. Very detailed and exacting climb tests would show that there was one optimum speed for any given weight, and the rate of climb would decrease at higher speeds, although there would be a range of speeds where the rate of climb would be _roughly_ the same. The rules of thumb that say the best rate of climb speed is 1.? x the stall speed only work if the aircraft in question is similar to the aircraft the rule of thumb was built around. The RV's low aspect ratio wing means that rules of thumb developed for the likes of Cessnas may not work for us. Fixed-pitch RVs also have higher pitch props than a Cessna, as the cruise speed is so much higher. This also helps screw up rules of thumb that deal with performance. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Strapdown inertial navigation systems WAS: Autopilot Itch From: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Frank van der Hulst (Staff WG)" > Oh darn .... thought I had something there. There are small "ring laser > gyro's" out there, but I haven't the faintest idea how they work!!! A laser beam is passed many times around a fixed path within an enclosure. If the enclosure rotates, the duration from the moment of laser emission to eventual reception will vary. In a Ring Laser Gyroscope, mirrors inside the enclosure form the laser beam path. In a Fibre Optic Gyroscope, a coil of optical-fibre creates the path. These devices are still very pricey. Frank (alternating replies before and after the original message :-) Learn real skills for the real world - Apply online at http://www.ucol.ac.nz or call 0800 GO UCOL (0800 46 8265) or txt free 3388 for more information and make a good move to UCOL Universal College of Learning. Enrol with a public institute and be certain of your future ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:18 PM PST US From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com I have an IO-360 B4A in my RV-8A and it has a solid crankshaft. The Bendix injection is mounted on the bottom of the sump, though. Walt Shipley N314TS 85 hrs ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:07:08 PM PST US From: "John D. Heath" Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint --> RV-List message posted by: "John D. Heath" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Subject: RE: RV-List: stupid whining complaint > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > Problem with your position Charlie, is we have ALREADY READ the posts I say all new text should go > below. True Charlie we don't read the last chapters first, but we have to the right side, aligned to > already read the other chapters in this case. it's point of referance. This > would allow easy cross check > I say put new words on top. Most viewers view top first. My guess is, we of each point and counter > only care about what is being replied to, not was has already been said point and require minimum > AND READ. scrolling. > > Thanks John D. > > Mike > Do not archive. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie & > Tupper England > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: stupid whining complaint > > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie & Tupper England > > > Jeff Dowling wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > > > > >Why are some replys below the original message? Im genreally reading > these > >on my laptop with no mouse. Most messages I can keep my pointer over > the > >delete button, read the majority of the message if appl, and then toss > it. > >Maybe some browsers automatically put the reply below the original but > it > >would sure be nice if you can change it. > > > >Do not arcive please > > > >Jeff Dowling > >RV-6A, N915JD > >58 hours > >Chicago/Louisville > > > > Boy, this could be more fun than primer wars or even prepunch/dimple vs. > > drill/dimple. :-) > > I gotta say that I absolutely HATE top posting. Having to read dozens of > > emails daily at work & often being the 4th or 5th recipient, it is > incredibly frustrating to have to scroll to the bottom, search upward > for the beginning of the 1st post, scroll down as I read, then scroll up > > through what I just read, through the 2nd post to its beginning, then > scroll down through that post, then scroll up through that post again & > through the *next* post until I find the beginning, etc. etc. > > Would you read a book that had the chapters bound in reverse order > within the covers? > > I can see the perceived advantage if you are swapping short notes > between 2 people & it never developed into a thread, but then no > scrolling would be needed anyway. > > Would you agree to bottom posting if I give you a wheel mouse for your > laptop? You can pick it up when you come to our party June 5 here at > Slobovia. > > Charlie > Slobovia Outernational Airport > -7 in the oven > do not archive (for real this time :-) ) > > > == > == > == > == > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:00 PM PST US From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: trim tab position --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com Get some 200mph duct tape and tape the sucker on and test in different locations. On my 8A I can get by with a shorter trim tab if I place it above the horizontal stab by about 6-8". Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:25 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >Re:Trim Tab Position --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com I hate those ugly tabs hanging out behind control surfaces so I use a wedge about 1" wide of the correct length to make the compensation correctly. A metal wedge painted to match the surface is barely noticeable. I put mine on the rudder at its' widest point for the most leverage;meaning it could be shorter. To get the correct size,make the wedge of wood ,and duct tape it on to try until you get the correct size. Bob Olds -- RV-4 , N1191X oldsfolks@aol.com A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:45 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: FAA Good Guy From: smoothweasel@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com All I can say is WWWWOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do Not Archive Weasel -4 waiting for FAA On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 15:07:42 -0600 "John" writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: "John" > > Every once in a while someone on this list mentions good service or > products > they have received. > > Today I am goiing to shock some of you....my nomination for the Good > Guy in > the FAA is Denver FSDO Inspector Scott Christenson....he used his > own time > to give a a revised operating limitation change when the policy of > that > office was that they were too overloaded to handle experimentals. > (a > legitimate situation.) He went out of his way to help me, and he's > coming > down tomorrow for an inspection of a commercial operator here at > our > airport, and I hope he will allow me to take him to lunch... > > Now and then you run into someone decent. Scott fits that bill. > > FWIW > > John at Salida, CO > > > = > = > = > = > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:58 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Stein and fellow Listers, Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6 with a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump. I had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the servo to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an -A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy what I did. Can I get a new data plate? Dan Hopper RV-7A (getting pretty close) In a message dated 4/7/04 1:22:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: > > 8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a > "non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a > machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing sumps > have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then you > put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo! > > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > RV6's, Minneapolis > > ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:55 PM PST US From: G B Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Stiffener Confusion --> RV-List message posted by: G B I did this yesterday on my RV9. I kept moving the stiffeners one hole at a time, and found out that the holes only exactly line up one way. Yes, they may appear to line up one hole off, but not really if you look carefully. Once the holes lined up, it was clear which end must be cut off. I reread the instructions several times, but actually playing with it helped. I was disappointed there was not a profile drawing of one cut stiffener! Glen HS, VS done Bill Dube wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > At 01:27 PM 4/7/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: Frederick Oldenburg > > > >I studied RV-7(A) drawing 7 for quite some time and I'm still somewhat > >confused as to what it is I need to do to properly trim the rudder stiffeners. > > messed up several before I got it right. > > First, cut, label, and shape all the "regular" stiffeners and set > them in position. Get them out of the way so you don't mix them up with the > ones you are going to cut down. > > Triple check before you trim anything. After you mark the > stiffeners for trimming, actually set them in position to confirm that the > holes are going to line up, then trim the longest one and check to be sure > you have done that one correctly before you trim any of the others. (If you > mess up the longest one, you might be able to trim it further and use it > for a shorter one.) > > The instructions don't make it 100% clear which end you are > supposed to trim or where you are supposed to measure from. Once you > finally figure it out, the instructions make perfect sense. But by then it > doesn't matter, does it? :-) > > I seem to remember that you are supposed to trim the front of the > stiffener. (I could very well be wrong.) The back taper thus stays "stock." > > I cut the stiffeners center to center on the guide holes then > rounded the corners to the point where the guide holes vanished. Seemed to > fit OK. > > ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 08:30:00 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Hopperdhh@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >Stein and fellow Listers, > >Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6 with >a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to >the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go >due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump. I >had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the servo >to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an >-A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy what I >did. Can I get a new data plate? > >Dan Hopper >RV-7A (getting pretty close) > > > > > > Ask the FAA guy that reads this list and does many of the inspection in this area for his opinion. :-) do not archive Jerry ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:27 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Stiffener Confusion --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Very good reply Glen. I would like to add a few things. I just finished my RV-9 replacement rudder for my early RV-7A. 1. Be sure to trim the stiffeners enough that they don't touch the opposite skin near the trailing edge. This will be automatic if you draw your line toward the center of the marker holes. 2. Use a 30 degree triangle (drafting type) to set the forward angles -- although not critical. 3. As was posted earlier, round the corners with a file until the marker holes disappear. 4. Use Pro-Seal on the trailing edge, let it cure plenty long. AND alternate rivet directions to keep the trailing edge straight. I didn't use Pro-Seal and my trailing edge is "wavy." Alternating rivet directions kept this from becoming a big curve though! But, I think Pro-Seal would have kept the aluminum from opening up at the trailing edge. It's also possible that I countersunk too much. 5. Just before you close up the trailing edge use some Pro-Seal to "glue" the left and right stiffeners together. This will prevent the skin from cracking which was a problem on some RV-6s. I'm definitely not an expert, but this is what I wish I had done. I will do it better next time! Hope all this helps you get a good job. Take your time. Dan Hopper RV-7A (almost done) In a message dated 4/7/04 10:26:39 PM US Eastern Standard Time, microsys@alltel.net writes: > > --> RV-List message posted by: G B > > I did this yesterday on my RV9. > > I kept moving the stiffeners one hole at a time, and found out that the > holes only > exactly line up one way. Yes, they may appear to line up one hole off, but > not > really if > you look carefully. Once the holes lined up, it was clear which end must be > cut > off. > > I reread the instructions several times, but actually playing with it > helped. > > I was disappointed there was not a profile drawing of one cut stiffener! > > Glen > HS, VS done > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:18 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: trim tab position --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" How about a 3" piece of angle taped to the underside of the HS instead. Out of sight. Perfectly aligned with the slip stream it has zero trim effect. Cocked slightly to either side, it would provide some trim. Probably more effective on the left side. Has anyone tried it? - Larry Bowen, RV-8 FAB ... Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: RVEIGHTA@aol.com [mailto:RVEIGHTA@aol.com] > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 10:08 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: trim tab position > > > --> RV-List message posted by: RVEIGHTA@aol.com > > > Get some 200mph duct tape and tape the sucker on and test in > different > locations. On my 8A I can get by with a shorter trim tab if I > place it above the > horizontal stab by about 6-8". > > Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:57 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Dan, The whole point of my comment was that this engine has obviously already been modified, as the -B4A is NOT a rear sump engine originally, hence the missing data plate on the sump.... As pointed out by a couple other individuals, the -B4A has a vertical sump, I re-checked my manuals to make sure. I'm not dumb enough to comment on the FAA thing in writing, but suffice to say it sholdn't be a huge issue... Oh, one last thing to keep this all light hearted - If you'd only gone with a Taildragger, that pesky nose gear most likely wouldn't have been in the way!!! No sump interference, no FAB interference, no Slot & cover in the cowl, no nosewheel shimmy, and no flat nose tires (OK, I better stop before the war starts again)! Cheers, Stein Bruch Do not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Question for the Engine Guru's on the list --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Stein and fellow Listers, Be careful with rear facing sump engines. I started with an IO-360-C1E6 with a rear facing sump. I had the front pads machined and the FI servo moved to the front. When I tried to put it on the RV-7A engine mount it wouldn't go due to the entire sump being about 2 inches further aft than an -A1A sump. I had to forget the modified -C1E6 sump and the $300 invested in moving the servo to the front, and go with an -A1A sump. I think that makes the engine an -A1B6 according to Vans table. I still don't know how to tell the FAA guy what I did. Can I get a new data plate? Dan Hopper RV-7A (getting pretty close) In a message dated 4/7/04 1:22:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time, stein@steinair.com writes: > > 8) Speaking of rear facing sumps. Look closely and see if there is a > "non-machined" pad on the front of it. If so, you can simply take it to a > machine shop and have the forward faced opening cut. Many rear-facing sumps > have this provision already cast in, and just need to be machined. Then you > put a block on the reat opening and....poof, a forward facing servo! > > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > RV6's, Minneapolis > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:46:29 PM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Catto Props --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com I have checked the archives and found very little information so here goes. I am considering a Catto prop for my RV-6 and would like to hear from anyone who has had first hand experience with these propellers, no rumors please, just the facts as you know them (Scott, thanks for your previous reply). Reply on or off the list. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, final assembly ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 11:28:52 PM PST US From: "Jim and Bev Cone" Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue Mountain EFIS --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim and Bev Cone" I have an EFIS One and a Dynon installed and running in my nearly completed RV-7A. It really looks great and even though my Apollo CNX-80 will not get a signal in my hangar, the EFIS One does. The EFIS One just keeps adding feature after feature after feature and the company is very responsive to builder suggestions. Sometimes they add a new feature or improve an old one in just one day after a good idea is suggested! The next great thing is HITS (highway in the sky) only better. They call it their Chelton Killer. Their digital autopilot is much better than any rate based system and is cheaper to boot. Up to 32 engine instruments can be displayed with alarms for high, low, rate change, and fail. Maps include VFR, IFR Low and High, Airports only, and Airways only. It also displays checklists. The ADI and HSI has wind info, TAS, Altitude above the ground, artificial vision behind the ADI, and Terrain above your altitude shows up in red. There are other features too numerous to mention here. All are well thought out and executed. Do I love this thing? You bet I do! It beats the glass cockpit that I flew in B-767's by a mile and is much easier to use. I also like my Dynon. Jim Cone 3-Peat Offender