Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:31 AM - Corrosion Protection in the UK (Tim Butterworth)
2. 07:22 AM - Re: Oops rivet question (John Huft)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: RV4 Blue Book (Tom Gummo)
4. 07:59 AM - Re: Corrosion Protection in the UK (Vanremog@aol.com)
5. 08:12 AM - Re: RV4 Blue Book (Vanremog@aol.com)
6. 08:33 AM - Fixing Tank Leaks (Dwight Frye)
7. 10:00 AM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (Kathleen (rv7))
8. 10:26 AM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (Dwight Frye)
9. 11:34 AM - Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length (David Roseblade)
10. 12:31 PM - RV4 Blue Book (Bruce Bell)
11. 01:29 PM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (Kathleen (rv7))
12. 01:39 PM - Torquing brass brake fittings (thomas a. sargent)
13. 02:58 PM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (LarryRobertHelming)
14. 04:11 PM - Re: Torquing brass brake fittings (qcbccgalley)
15. 04:27 PM - Gyro & DG mounting mounting (Richard Suffoletto)
16. 04:39 PM - Re: Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length (Vanremog@aol.com)
17. 05:28 PM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (qcbccgalley)
18. 05:43 PM - Tailwheel Chain Tension (John Wiegenstein)
19. 05:54 PM - Re: Advice for apartment dwelling wannabe builder? (czechsix@juno.com)
20. 06:09 PM - Re: Tailwheel Chain Tension (HCRV6@aol.com)
21. 06:19 PM - [Fw: Re: IT'S ALIVE!] (jamesbaldwin@attglobal.net)
22. 06:37 PM - Re: Corrosion Protection in the UK (Charlie England)
23. 07:14 PM - >Re: Tailwheel Chain Tension (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
24. 07:54 PM - Re: Torquing brass brake fittings (thomas a. sargent)
25. 07:55 PM - Wing fitting (Ted Hultzapple)
26. 08:00 PM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
27. 08:55 PM - Re: RV4 Blue Book (Scott Vanartsdalen)
28. 09:23 PM - Re: Fixing Tank Leaks (Kathleen (rv7))
29. 09:54 PM - Re: Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length (Dan Checkoway)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Corrosion Protection in the UK |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Butterworth" <Tim.Butterworth@CVLUK.COM>
Hi,
I seem to get 2 conflicting stories as to whether I need to apply corrosion protection
to an RV9A as I build it in the UK. Some say that given the high quality
of the material and that it will be hangared, it is not necessary; other say
that the weather in the UK is so much more damp and humid that it will be corroded
within 3 years if I don't irrespective of it is hangared.
Is there a consensus view?
Thanks
Tim
Message 2
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| Subject: | Oops rivet question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Huft" <rv8tor@lazy8.net>
I agree with all this, but when it comes time for the punch, I use a
spring-loaded center punch. Often the snap action pops the remainder of the
rivet out.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Subject: Re: RV-List: Oops rivet question
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
>
>One thing to consider in the future is that unless you've really screwed up
>a rivet, you're probably better to leave a marginal rivets than to drill it
>out and replace it. It is awfully hard to drill out a rivet without
>enlarging or mis-shaping the hole. This was discussed in an RV-ator
article
>some years back.
>
While I agree with the general sentiment of Kyle's suggestion, I
think many new builders simply aren't using a very good technique for
drilling out rivets. I use an adaptation of the following technique,
posted by Leo Davies in 1996:
====================
From: Leo Davies
Subject: Re: RV-List: Drilling out rivets
There may be some metal working gurus out there with more experience but
here are a few tips (painfully acquired).
Like driving rivets drilling them out should be practised on scrap. Set a
dozen rivets in two bits of scrap and practive drilling them out.
Center punch the heads before you start to drill. Use a drill the same size
as the rivet shank but only drill to the depth of the head. Use a drive pin
punch of appropriate size to break the head out. Now finish drilling through
the rivet with a drill that is well undersize. eg #40 for a 1/8 rivet, #50
for a 3/32. You should be able to do this so that you don't touch the
material. You now have a stress relieving hole through the centre of the
rivet. Now have a good look at the whole situation: are there any proud
bits left on the factory head side? If so get a jeweller's file and tidy
up. Now... get some species of gripping pliers and gently turn the rivet in
the hole by holding the shop head. Sometimes with gentle traction the whole
thing will come out like a bolt from a hole.
If not..... now is the time to drive the remaining shaft out. Use the
correct size pin punch. SUPPORT the back of the material!!!. I use a lump
of lead left over from my elevator counter weights with lots of shop head
sized holes drilled in it so that no matter where the rivet is I can support
it from behind. This stops the bending in the back piece of material. You
may need a third hand to help with this. Driving the rivet should not take
much whack. If it doesn't come out with a wristy tap then you have some
proud material somewhere. Stop and look again. If you have expanded the
rivet between the two sheets of material the hole you drilled in the middle
may allow you to crush the rivet with pliers untill there is enough
clearance to wriggle it out.
The above technique works pretty well for me. I do remember being similairly
frustrated in the empennage, the wings much less, the fuselage not at all.
Van's parts are cheap so If you finish with a part you are unhappy with
throw it and order a new one. I have a collection of about 6 "bits" that
have cost me $50 in parts and $100 in postage. Trivial in the cost of the
airplane.
Cheers,
Leo Davies
Sydney, Australia
====================
I do one thing a bit different than Leo - I don't drill the small
hole quite all the way through the rivet. I try to drill just a bit
deeper than the thickness of the two pieces of material the rivet is
holding together. Then I insert a small punch in that hole, and tap
the rivet out. Being sure all the head is removed first, and being
carelful to support the back side of the material. Every once in a
while the piece of rivet will be jammed on the end of the punch after
it comes out of the hole. But a quick twist with a pair of pliers
has always been able to pull the piece of rivet off the punch.
And as Leo said, practice drilling rivets out on some scrap first.
Try drilling out some of those ugly ones you made when you were
practicing riveting.
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: RV4 Blue Book |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
The tax people will come at your from all angles. While they couldn't look
up Gummo Special in Trade a Plane, they found my construction loan and used
it for the value of the plane. Of course, it is much lower than insured
value of the plane so I am still pretty happy about that.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vanartsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV4 Blue Book
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> I wish I had the foresight that another list'er showed and called my plane
a Scooter Srap-pile Special. Find that in TAP!
>
> As for your suggestion, you are of course correct. That is very logical
approach and something I would consider but answer this first: What's a
good comeback for "Well I don't know, SIR, that's just how we've always done
it." ?
>
> Kyle Boatright <kboatright1@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
>
> For your best interests, you need to point out to the nice people in the
tax
> office that Trade a Plane shows Asking prices, not Selling prices. There
is
> often a significant difference.
>
> KB
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Vanartsdalen"
> To:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV4 Blue Book
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen
> >
> > Our county tax people here in the California Central Valley just use
> Trade-A-Plane to determine value. They take the average of the TAP for
sale
> prices or your declared value, whichever is more. :-)
> >
> > At least that's what the remarkably intelligent girl answering the phone
> said.
> >
> >
> > | |
> > sarcasm---------------------+-----------------------------+
> > (Just in case anyone missed it)
> >
> > Bruce Bell wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell"
> >
> > Good afternoon all,
> > Anyone know where to find the Blue Book on a RV4?
> > Best regards,
> > Bruce Bell
> > Lubbock, Texas
> > RV4 # 2888
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
> >
> > When a man does all he can
> > though it succeeds not well,
> > blame not him that did it."
> > -- George Washington
> >
> >
>
>
> ion
>
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Protection in the UK |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 6/12/2004 12:32:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Tim.Butterworth@cvluk.com writes:
I seem to get 2 conflicting stories as to whether I need to apply corrosion
protection to an RV9A as I build it in the UK. Some say that given the high
quality of the material and that it will be hangared, it is not necessary;
other say that the weather in the UK is so much more damp and humid that it
will be corroded within 3 years if I don't irrespective of it is hangared.
Is there a consensus view?
======================================
There is rarely a consensus on anything, however, it all boils down to your
comfort level relative to the investment you are making in your aircraft.
Are you a "long term" or "short term" kind of person. I've been into building
high reliability military hardware for most of my adult life as a career, so
I'm a long haul kind of guy. I want the fruit of my labor to pay off over
the balance of my lifetime. Our disposable culture today drives me nuts.
In contrast, I endeavor to build planes that will last forever. Since
nothing really lasts forever, it will probably last a good long time. If I sell
it sometime in the future, it will not be a liability burden for me, as it is
built to the very highest of standards. Unless the potential new owner flies
it into the ground, it will continue to stay together over the long haul.
I say prime it and it will last longer than you need it to. I would hate to
have any plane of mine deteriorating before my eyes ever.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 701 hrs; last trip, Sedona)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV4 Blue Book |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 6/12/2004 7:41:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
T.gummo@verizon.net writes:
The tax people will come at your from all angles. While they couldn't look
up Gummo Special in Trade a Plane, they found my construction loan and used
it for the value of the plane. Of course, it is much lower than insured
value of the plane so I am still pretty happy about that.
===================================
In my area they have figured out that ploy and require for you, under
penalty of perjury, to state the insured hull value on a form you must return to
them early in the year. They are serious about collecting the maximum tax $$
these days.
So right up front they use an averaging scheme based on the asking prices of
similar aircraft listed in Trade-a-Plane, they assume that you have all the
bells and whistles on your plane, require you to state the insured value and
are more than willing to come out and inspect the aircraft, otherwise your
plane will be impounded.
It is up to you to fight back and negotiate a lower tax burden, and you may
have to do this every year in order to retain the privilege of hangaring your
aircraft within the county limits. If you would have just blown your money
instead on wine, women and song, they wouldn't have a prayer, but because you
built an airplane with it, you will pay forever. What a deal for them. And
the worst part is that the $$ go into the general fund, not to the county
airports.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 701 hrs; last trip, Sedona)
Message 6
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| Subject: | Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Ok ... I've finished my right tank, and just today did a leak
test. All of the rivet lines are good, and the back baffle (which
includes the z-brackets) seem to be leak free. However, I have
leaks in three spots, two of which are easy to deal with and the
third I have questions about.
The leaks are around the BNC fuel sender connector, and the two
lower rear corners. On the inboard rib the problem is fairly easy
to deal with ... I take the cover off, reach in, clean a bit, and
proseal like crazy. Easy enough (unless I'm missing something in
which case some pointers would be welcome).
The question I have is concerning the leak at the outboard lower
rear corner. The bubbles come from the rib corner with air getting
out between the lower skin, the rib, and the baffle. I can obviously
slather on proseal from the outside, but wonder if that is the
right/best fix. Given that all the rivet lines (top, bottom, back,
front, everywhere) are good I hate to drill any out. Can I get some
advice? Thanks!
-- Dwight
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kathleen (rv7)" <Kathleen@rv7.us>
I can tell you from trying a quick-fix on Mooney tanks that ProSeal won't
hold long from the outside. It will work in an emergency, but you really do
have to seal it from the inside so that the pressure (the weight of the
fuel) is holding the sealant in place. That way, if the sealant gives a
little as it does when it is warm, it will only be forced into the offending
leak hole and the pressure won't cause it to bubble up. Just make sure you
have positively identified the internal source.
Good luck...
Kathleen
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Subject: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Ok ... I've finished my right tank, and just today did a leak test. All of
the rivet lines are good, and the back baffle (which includes the
z-brackets) seem to be leak free. However, I have leaks in three spots, two
of which are easy to deal with and the third I have questions about.
The leaks are around the BNC fuel sender connector, and the two lower rear
corners. On the inboard rib the problem is fairly easy to deal with ... I
take the cover off, reach in, clean a bit, and proseal like crazy. Easy
enough (unless I'm missing something in which case some pointers would be
welcome).
The question I have is concerning the leak at the outboard lower rear
corner. The bubbles come from the rib corner with air getting out between
the lower skin, the rib, and the baffle. I can obviously slather on proseal
from the outside, but wonder if that is the right/best fix. Given that all
the rivet lines (top, bottom, back, front, everywhere) are good I hate to
drill any out. Can I get some advice? Thanks!
-- Dwight
do not archive
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
That was my suspicion .... so my question really is ... how do I get
proseal into that one corner? Is it possible to thin it enough to
"inject" it into the corner with a (fairly large) syringe??
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Sat Jun 12 12:59:12 2004, "Kathleen (rv7)" wrote :
>I can tell you from trying a quick-fix on Mooney tanks that ProSeal won't
>hold long from the outside. It will work in an emergency, but you really do
>have to seal it from the inside so that the pressure (the weight of the
>fuel) is holding the sealant in place. That way, if the sealant gives a
>little as it does when it is warm, it will only be forced into the offending
>leak hole and the pressure won't cause it to bubble up. Just make sure you
>have positively identified the internal source.
>
>Good luck...
Message 9
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| Subject: | Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length |
--> RV-List message posted by: David Roseblade <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>
Listers
I am installing Infinity control grips in my RV6, I notice from a few
photos from my visits to Oshkosh that some builders fit it offset,
rather than level across the aircraft Can I have a few opinions from
both camps. IE, does it cause problems with your wrist , sitting in my
aircraft with my arm on the arm rest it seems that there is quite a bit
of angle needed in the wrist joint... Also, what is the optimum length
for the control stick.
Regards
David Roseblade
RV 6 Finishing
Dubai, UAE
Persian Gulf
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell" <rv4bell@door.net>
Good news! I just got a letter from the Lubbock Central Appraisal District
that said that the market value and assessed value was $0 and account
deleted for 2004. I took them about a dozen photos and all the specs from
Van's web site Thursday afternoon. So for now I can breath a little better.
I still can't figure how they got that $295,000 figure.
Regards to all,
Bruce Bell
Lubbock, Texas
RV4 # 2888
N23BB
DO NOT ARCHIVE!
Message 11
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| Subject: | Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kathleen (rv7)" <Kathleen@rv7.us>
I don't think it needs to be thinned. You can use a syringe with a short
length of tubing on the tip if access is really difficult. The smaller the
diameter of the syringe, the easier it is to push the plunger. The syringe
will work, but you still have to be able to get to the corner to smear it
around. You can get a finger (with a rubber glove) into the corner, can't
you?
Kathleen
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Subject: Re: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
That was my suspicion .... so my question really is ... how do I get proseal
into that one corner? Is it possible to thin it enough to "inject" it into
the corner with a (fairly large) syringe??
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Sat Jun 12 12:59:12 2004, "Kathleen (rv7)" wrote :
>I can tell you from trying a quick-fix on Mooney tanks that ProSeal
>won't hold long from the outside. It will work in an emergency, but
>you really do have to seal it from the inside so that the pressure (the
>weight of the
>fuel) is holding the sealant in place. That way, if the sealant gives a
>little as it does when it is warm, it will only be forced into the
>offending leak hole and the pressure won't cause it to bubble up. Just
>make sure you have positively identified the internal source.
>
>Good luck...
advertising on the Matronics Forums.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Torquing brass brake fittings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
I am installing my bake lines. I can find no torque specifications for
the brass, high pressure fittings (the ones that take the high pressure
plastic tubing on an RV dual brake system). I find storque pecs for the
aluminum AN fittings and for steel fittings, but not brass. Does any on
have any information on this? I'm guessing the brass would be somewhere
between Aluminum and steel.
Thanks,
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Brakes
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Here is an idea to try. You could create a vacuum in your tank ( but not
too much or you might cause another problem) and mix some proseal with some
MKE or thinner in it and put it on on the outside where it leaks and let the
vacuum suck it into the leak area. You should stand the tank on end so the
area with the leak was at the bottom so you'd know when proseal got inside
it would stay there at the place you wanted it. After some has been drawn
in, you would remove the vacuum and smear more on the outside and let it set
up for a couple weeks to a month and then retry your leak test. I'd just
be careful to not create too much of a vacuum. Watch the tank and if you
see it drawing in just a bit you have enough vacuum.
Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
Subject: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>
> Ok ... I've finished my right tank, and just today did a leak
> test. All of the rivet lines are good, and the back baffle (which
> includes the z-brackets) seem to be leak free. However, I have
> leaks in three spots, two of which are easy to deal with and the
> third I have questions about.
>
> The leaks are around the BNC fuel sender connector, and the two
> lower rear corners. On the inboard rib the problem is fairly easy
> to deal with ... I take the cover off, reach in, clean a bit, and
> proseal like crazy. Easy enough (unless I'm missing something in
> which case some pointers would be welcome).
>
> The question I have is concerning the leak at the outboard lower
> rear corner. The bubbles come from the rib corner with air getting
> out between the lower skin, the rib, and the baffle. I can obviously
> slather on proseal from the outside, but wonder if that is the
> right/best fix. Given that all the rivet lines (top, bottom, back,
> front, everywhere) are good I hate to drill any out. Can I get some
> advice? Thanks!
>
> -- Dwight
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Torquing brass brake fittings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "qcbccgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Torquing tubing fittings is overkill. Clocking or the pointing of the
fitting is more important. Of course you don't want it to leak so use pipe
dope on the threads NOT tape. Many pipe dopes have powdered Teflon in them
to make turning easier and this then makes any torquing spec wrong. The
very best pipe dope is Loctite PST which not only has the Teflon powder but
also has "crazy glue" to maintain the "clocking" without over tightening.
Keep the dope back of the first thread so it doesn't get into the system.
Incidentally, tapered pipe threads are self-locking by design.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
Subject: RV-List: Torquing brass brake fittings
> --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
>
> I am installing my bake lines. I can find no torque specifications for
> the brass, high pressure fittings (the ones that take the high pressure
> plastic tubing on an RV dual brake system). I find storque pecs for the
> aluminum AN fittings and for steel fittings, but not brass. Does any on
> have any information on this? I'm guessing the brass would be somewhere
> between Aluminum and steel.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Brakes
>
>
Message 15
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| Subject: | Gyro & DG mounting mounting |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Suffoletto" <rsuffoletto@hotmail.com>
I am mounting a DG Gyro in my 7A panel and they are a bit too long to fit properly.
I was not able to find anything in the archives on this so can someone tell
me how they solved the interference problem or direct me to someone's web
site where there may be pictures posted. I realize I can cut into the rear panel
but would like to hear what others have done.
Thanks
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 6/12/2004 11:35:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
davidagr@emirates.net.ae writes:
I am installing Infinity control grips in my RV6, I notice from a few
photos from my visits to Oshkosh that some builders fit it offset,
rather than level across the aircraft Can I have a few opinions from
both camps. IE, does it cause problems with your wrist , sitting in my
aircraft with my arm on the arm rest it seems that there is quite a bit
of angle needed in the wrist joint... Also, what is the optimum length
for the control stick.
================================
I placed my Teak grips with a little rotation so that Mr. Hand comes in at a
comfortable angle with no cocking of the wrist. The stick needs to be long
enough to reach Mr. Hand but not so long that the grip with your hand and
thumb around it hits the panel or controls.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 701 hrs; last trip, Sedona)
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: "qcbccgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
If all the rivets were good, it would not leak. One can use a closed end
pop rivet to replace a leaking rivet. You might need to remove a couple of
rivets to open a seam to apply more pro-seal.
Be very careful as the message below says. You can destroy a tank very
quickly by too much vacuum.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
> --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
>
> Here is an idea to try. You could create a vacuum in your tank ( but not
> too much or you might cause another problem) and mix some proseal with
some
> MKE or thinner in it and put it on on the outside where it leaks and let
the
> vacuum suck it into the leak area. You should stand the tank on end so
the
> area with the leak was at the bottom so you'd know when proseal got inside
> it would stay there at the place you wanted it. After some has been drawn
> in, you would remove the vacuum and smear more on the outside and let it
set
> up for a couple weeks to a month and then retry your leak test. I'd just
> be careful to not create too much of a vacuum. Watch the tank and if you
> see it drawing in just a bit you have enough vacuum.
>
> Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
> To: "RV Mailing List" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
> >
> > Ok ... I've finished my right tank, and just today did a leak
> > test. All of the rivet lines are good, and the back baffle (which
> > includes the z-brackets) seem to be leak free. However, I have
> > leaks in three spots, two of which are easy to deal with and the
> > third I have questions about.
> >
> > The leaks are around the BNC fuel sender connector, and the two
> > lower rear corners. On the inboard rib the problem is fairly easy
> > to deal with ... I take the cover off, reach in, clean a bit, and
> > proseal like crazy. Easy enough (unless I'm missing something in
> > which case some pointers would be welcome).
> >
> > The question I have is concerning the leak at the outboard lower
> > rear corner. The bubbles come from the rib corner with air getting
> > out between the lower skin, the rib, and the baffle. I can obviously
> > slather on proseal from the outside, but wonder if that is the
> > right/best fix. Given that all the rivet lines (top, bottom, back,
> > front, everywhere) are good I hate to drill any out. Can I get some
> > advice? Thanks!
> >
> > -- Dwight
> >
> > do not archive
> >
> >
>
>
Message 18
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| Subject: | Tailwheel Chain Tension |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Wiegenstein" <n727jw@hellerwiegenstein.com>
My slow build 6 is now starting taxi tests. Everything feels fine and I've
not run into anything, but I have some uncertainty as to the proper tension
or slack on the tailwheel chains. I checked the archives and found a lot
of related information, but nothing really specific on this point. For a
low time (new) tailwheel pilot, what's the general consensus, if any? A
link or two of slack? More? At the current setting I have probably 2-3
links of slack, and have to use a lot of pedal to get what feels like
meaningful tailwheel steering. But full pedal easily unlocks the tailwheel,
and its easy to get locked again with the pedals centered and taxiing a few
feet. On the other hand it doesn't feel as though there is much tailwheel
steering happening at normal taxi speeds and pedal deflections.
John Wiegenstein
Hansville, WA
RV-6 N727JW
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Advice for apartment dwelling wannabe builder? |
--> RV-List message posted by: czechsix@juno.com
Dan,
I'll reiterate what several others have already said, if you wanna do it
bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen. Might as well get
started now. Some folks think you need a huge shop plumbed with air and
a pneumatic squeezer, cable TV, kitchenette, jacuzzi, yada yada
yada...don't listen to 'em. : ) I've been building my -8A in a condo
for the past 5 years. I'm a bit better off than you in that I have a
garage, but it's still a more difficult situation than most folks have
since my neighbor's living room is on the other side of my garage wall,
and we have no basement so space is tight. Plus it's only a two bedroom
condo and we have two kids now....our newest car is a rusty, hail-damaged
'91 Corolla and the car I drive was built before I was born and before
Neil Armstrong took that one small step onto the moon ('67 Plymouth
Belvedere). I don't own an air drill, have never seen the need for one,
nor a pneumatic squeezer, nor a drill press or lots of other
"nice-to-haves."
Now for some practical advice:
1) Above all, you must have a very supportive wife (partner, dog,
whatever else shares your living space and income). My wife has
sacrificed a lot for me to fulfill this dream....she's a priceless gem.
2) Almost as important, you need to make good friends with any neighbors
within earshot of your riveting. 95% of your time building the RV will
be relatively quiet (cordless drill, filing edges, squeezing rivets,
reading plans, etc). The relatively few hours you'll spend dimpling with
a hammer or using a rivet gun can be done on Saturday afternoons, and if
you're on good terms with your neighbors and they know what's going
on--and you aren't keeping them awake at night--they'll probably not
complain. My neighbors have been great.
3) Along the lines of noise reduction, by all means get a belt-driven
compressor. MUCH, MUCH quieter than the oil-less direct drive types.
They cost a bit more but you'll be thankful (as will your family and
neighbors) every time you turn it on.
4) Bulky, expensive tools like a drill press are rarely needed and on
the rare occasion that I've had to use one I just went over to a friend's
house (thanks Alan).
5) If you want to prime everything internally, you're gonna have a
problem in your apartment. Either you'll have to take all the parts
somewhere else to prime, or just forego this step. If you have a patio
or deck you might be able to get away with using some of the rattle can
primer (i.e. Sherwin Williams 988) and just hit the rivet seams where
there's metal-to-metal contact. Quick, easy, minimal overspray and it
keeps the airplane light. Will be fine like this unless you plan to keep
it next to the ocean where it gets bathed in salt spray...
I'd say you could pretty easily get the empennage and wings done in an
apartment. Beyond that, it will begin to get very difficult...the
fuselage is too big to get out of an average apartment door or window,
and is a pain to move too. I'd be looking seriously for something with a
two-car garage when you want to start the fuselage. Some have done it in
a one-car garage space, but you have to have some other storage/hangar
space available to put the parts that are completed as you progress. My
biggest problem is the condo has no basement, so about half of my
airplane is in a neighbor's basement (did I mention I have great
neighbors?). The rest of it is wedged into every nook and cranny and
closet corner I could find.
Good luck....call Vans on Monday, order an empennage and you'll figure
out a way to make it happen.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D prepping fuselage for paint....in my paint booth, in my
condo... : )
From: "Dan White" <whited@rpi.edu>
Subject: RV-List: Advice for apartment dwelling wannabe builder?
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan White" <whited@rpi.edu>
I currently live in a Brooklyn, NY apartment. For those of you not
familiar with the city, living spaces can be a bit small and
apartments generally do not come with garages. We plan on moving in
a couple years, but I've gotten the hardcore building bug and am
anxious to get started on a project.
Any possible shop areas would most likely be very far away and I have
a full time job. Do I wait until better situated? Has anyone
managed a build under similar circumstances? And how did you do it?
Also, from all the build logs I've read there comes a point when the
plane is almost complete and it's trailered up and moved to the
airport hangar for finishing. Does everybody out there have access
to hangar space? I've personally never been to a field that didn't
have a very long waiting list for even the dingiest hangars. What do
people do at that stage of the build if they can't secure any indoor
storage?
Dan
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Tailwheel Chain Tension |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
John: According to the local "experts" (i.e., RV-6 and RV-4 owners) in my
area, the proper tension is somewhere around a half a link, or what amounts to
about a 1/2 inch of sag when everything is centered. I could not get that
with the chain Van's supplied but I found chain with just slightly longer links
at the local hardware store aviation supply aisle and that worked. Since I
haven't started taxi test yet I am going on faith that this is correct.
Do not archive
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, final assembly
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: IT'S ALIVE!] |
--> RV-List message posted by: jamesbaldwin@attglobal.net
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: RV-List: IT'S ALIVE!
From: jamesbaldwin@attglobal.net
Hi Bill -
The original Cheetah engine was 150 HP. The Tiger version had 180 HP.
The "HP ratio" is thus 180/150 or 1.2. The cube root of 1.2 is about
1.063, yielding a speed increase of 6 percent or so. Other issues,
complicate the actual gain but this usually turns out to be pretty close
for the smaller HP ratios. As you pointed out, climb and performance in
density altitude challenged operations is a bigger benefit. For the
RV7a, I personally would be more concerned with the issue of straight
valve cylinders versus the angle valve version. The 180 is a hard
engine to beat (same basic cylinders as on the IO540 C4B5 I am planning
to use on my Harman Rocket) for reliability and the 200 HP weighs more
as well. This weight issue is one of the other performance factors many
forget to include when romancing the idea of big HP numbers. JBB
Bill Schlatterer wrote:
>James, just seeking clarity. I have seen this calculation before but it
>isn't clear to me what "cube root of the HP ratio" really is. In your
>Cheetah example, there was a 30 hp increase. The cube root of 30 is about
>3.1x so where does the 6 MPH come from. This is a particularly good example
>since I am building a RV7a and considering the difference between a 180 and
>200 and really can't see it except in climb.
>
>Having said that I would really like to see the specific calculation on the
>Cheetah example if you wouldn't mind.
>
>Thanks Bill S
>7a QB Fuse
>Maumelle, Arkansas
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
>jamesbaldwin@attglobal.net
>Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 6:43 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: IT'S ALIVE!
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: jamesbaldwin@attglobal.net
>
>I have seen several posts here with comments regarding speed vs
>horsepower, most recently Bill Von Dan's comment on converting his 0-320
>to 160 HP. Just so you other guys don't perform these engine hop-ups
>to gain unattainable speed increases I hasten to point out that the
>increase in speed (cruise) is the cube root of the horsepower ratio. In
>other words, add an engine with 50% more power (pretty difficult without
>increasing displacement) and you might see as much as 14% speed
>increase. If it was a 170 mph airframe it would now cruise best case
>at maybe 193 mph. Of course the big engine will have more cooling drag,
>perhaps a larger cowl, etc., so the increase is more likely less.
> A friend told me, after converting his Grumman Cheetah, 150 HP, to a
>Tiger with 180 HP that his cruise was 20 mph faster. Of course large
>numbers of beers were bet and only barely did I escape the Betty Ford
>Clinic. The speed increase worked out to 6 mph which was very close to
>the cube root of the HP ratio. Just thought you guys might like to know
>before you spend the bucks upgrading. Now, if we're talking climb
>numbers, the equation is much different and HP makes a bigger
>difference. Good for a later post.
> James Baldwin
>
>SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>>
>>Bill- best of luck with the new engine.
>>
>>I did the belchfire upgrade to mine after a bad cam & followers episode,
>>
>>
>but only went to 8.5:1, for a nominal 160 hp. Now I get to buy premium
>mogas at home and 100LL while on the road (nobody sells premium mogas at
>FBO's) for an additional 10 hp, which has made little if any perceptible
>difference in performance (I'm still limited to 2600 rpm by the Sensenich
>engineering marvel on the nose and get 2280 static rpm at 1050 MSL
>typically, will get even less if I coarsen the pitch as has been recommended
>to avoid overspeeding in cruise!) Would I do it again if I had it to do
>over? NO WAY! Not for the privilege of paying 20 cents per gallon more for
>hi-test when regular used to do. Also, I heard that 160hp was as high as
>one ought to push the O-320-E2D due to the small front main bearing (from an
>O-290; gee, thanks, Lycoming...) so you might be in relatively uncharted
>territory.
>
>
>>Hope your mileage varies considerably from mine.
>>
>>-Stormy / 6-A, 386 hrs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Corrosion Protection in the UK |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Tim Butterworth wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Butterworth" <Tim.Butterworth@CVLUK.COM>
>
>Hi,
>
>I seem to get 2 conflicting stories as to whether I need to apply corrosion protection
to an RV9A as I build it in the UK. Some say that given the high quality
of the material and that it will be hangared, it is not necessary; other say
that the weather in the UK is so much more damp and humid that it will be corroded
within 3 years if I don't irrespective of it is hangared.
>
>Is there a consensus view?
>
>Thanks
>
>Tim
>
Wet won't kill the AL. Wet salt air will be a bit worse. To get a proper
handle on how AL will survive in your environment, seek out some AL
factory planes that were built shortly after WW-II & have lived out
their lives in the UK. There are lots of all-AL planes in the US that
are over 50 years old. None that I've seen have any interior corrosion
protection (primer) applied to the alclad sheet parts. (Obviously,
non-alclad parts need to be protected.)
Charlie
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: >Re: Tailwheel Chain Tension |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I had too much slack in my tailwheel chains and the steering was very sloppy.
I too found chain with a different link length and that fixed my problem.
You might get just the right length with the chains you have; just try to get
1/4" or so sag in the chains. You don't want tension on them when the plane is
loaded - that will wear out the holes in the steering arms.
If you have no tailwheel time you should get some time in a Citabria, Champ,
etc., with an instructor, before you start taxi testing !!! Too many times a
taxi test becomes a flight and sometimes a catastrophie. You have too much at
stake to take that chance.
Keep on and I know you'll feel it was worth all the time.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Torquing brass brake fittings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
Cy:
I am using some Bakerseal on the fitting threads, sparingly, as you
say. I tighten the fitting as much as I can using my fingers and then
use a wrench to twist it around to the right position.
However, I wasn't clear enough in my original post. What I really want
to know about is tightening the brass "nut" that screws on to the
fitting. Do you have any advice on that?
qcbccgalley wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "qcbccgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Torquing tubing fittings is overkill. Clocking or the pointing of the
> fitting is more important. Of course you don't want it to leak so use pipe
> dope on the threads NOT tape. Many pipe dopes have powdered Teflon in them
> to make turning easier and this then makes any torquing spec wrong. The
> very best pipe dope is Loctite PST which not only has the Teflon powder but
> also has "crazy glue" to maintain the "clocking" without over tightening.
> Keep the dope back of the first thread so it doesn't get into the system.
>>I am installing my bake lines. I can find no torque specifications for
>>the brass, high pressure fittings (the ones that take the high pressure
>>plastic tubing on an RV dual brake system).
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Landing gear
Message 25
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ted Hultzapple" <thultzap@rochester.rr.com>
Today I installed the wings on my RV8A. I did all measurements according to
the plans with plumb lines, measurements from tail to wing tips, incidence ,
etc. All came out well. However, when I started fitting the bottom wing skin
to the bottom skin of the fuselage, there seems to be interference under the
rear spar fittings that extend from the fuselage (quickbuild). In other
words, when I push up on the bottom skin of the fuselage that screws to the
first wing rib, it is held down about one eighth to three sixteenths of an
inch by the rear spar attachment. I double checked the incidence and it is
right on. Am I missing something or is this nothing to worry about? I have
enough edge distance from the 5/16 attach bolt to file some material from
the spar attachment fittings, but it would be difficult especially because
it is a quickbuild. Has anyone else seen this problem?
Ted
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Dwight;
I have used Pro-Seal from the outside and had good results with it. A
neighbor had a Toyota with a matchstem size hole in the bottom of the tank. I
used
emery cloth to sand it, With fuel running out, and applied pro-Seal liberally.
I had to pat the Pro-Seal back up as it would form a bubble with the weight
of the fuel. After 15-20 minutes it set up enough to stay in place and
stopped the leak. He drove the car for several more years. I have done the same
on
my wifes antique car and it worked OK.
I have fixed RV tank leaks by sanding with #40 grit and wash with MEK,then
apply Pro-Seal liberally. It will work.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: RV4 Blue Book |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I figured as much. You can't win, you can't break even, and you can't even quit
the game. At least, I can't.
Tom Gummo <T.gummo@verizon.net> wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo"
The tax people will come at your from all angles. While they couldn't look
up Gummo Special in Trade a Plane, they found my construction loan and used
it for the value of the plane. Of course, it is much lower than insured
value of the plane so I am still pretty happy about that.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vanartsdalen"
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV4 Blue Book
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen
>
> I wish I had the foresight that another list'er showed and called my plane
a Scooter Srap-pile Special. Find that in TAP!
>
> As for your suggestion, you are of course correct. That is very logical
approach and something I would consider but answer this first: What's a
good comeback for "Well I don't know, SIR, that's just how we've always done
it." ?
>
> Kyle Boatright wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
>
> For your best interests, you need to point out to the nice people in the
tax
> office that Trade a Plane shows Asking prices, not Selling prices. There
is
> often a significant difference.
>
> KB
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Vanartsdalen"
> To:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV4 Blue Book
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen
> >
> > Our county tax people here in the California Central Valley just use
> Trade-A-Plane to determine value. They take the average of the TAP for
sale
> prices or your declared value, whichever is more. :-)
> >
> > At least that's what the remarkably intelligent girl answering the phone
> said.
> >
> >
> > | |
> > sarcasm---------------------+-----------------------------+
> > (Just in case anyone missed it)
> >
> > Bruce Bell wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell"
> >
> > Good afternoon all,
> > Anyone know where to find the Blue Book on a RV4?
> > Best regards,
> > Bruce Bell
> > Lubbock, Texas
> > RV4 # 2888
> >
> >
> > --
> > Scott VanArtsdalen
> > RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
> >
> > When a man does all he can
> > though it succeeds not well,
> > blame not him that did it."
> > -- George Washington
> >
> >
>
>
> ion
>
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
When a man does all he can
though it succeeds not well,
blame not him that did it."
-- George Washington
Message 28
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| Subject: | Fixing Tank Leaks |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kathleen (rv7)" <Kathleen@rv7.us>
OK Dwight, I should have suggested this in the first place. If it is real
hard to get to the spot in the corner and you know that the leak is small --
on the order of a pinhole, you can use varnish. Get PRC, I believe it is
PR-1005-L. You can brush it on, smear it with a rag or Q-Tips or squirt it
through a syringe. Some people call this stuff varnish or lacquer, actually
it is a synthetic rubber solution. It is used in certificated airplanes of
many varieties and in military aircraft tanks. It is often referred to as
"slosh coating". If you haven't put fuel in the tanks, it can just be
painted over the ProSeal. Otherwise rinse or wipe the area with a generous
amount of MEK. Two coats are usually recommended. You can apply them about
20 minutes apart in modestly warm settings. I think it is a simple and
reliable way to fix your problem. Don't make more work out of this than it
really requires.
Good luck again,
Kathleen
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Subject: Re: RV-List: Fixing Tank Leaks
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
That was my suspicion .... so my question really is ... how do I get proseal
into that one corner? Is it possible to thin it enough to "inject" it into
the corner with a (fairly large) syringe??
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Sat Jun 12 12:59:12 2004, "Kathleen (rv7)" wrote :
>I can tell you from trying a quick-fix on Mooney tanks that ProSeal
>won't hold long from the outside. It will work in an emergency, but
>you really do have to seal it from the inside so that the pressure (the
>weight of the
>fuel) is holding the sealant in place. That way, if the sealant gives a
>little as it does when it is warm, it will only be forced into the
>offending leak hole and the pressure won't cause it to bubble up. Just
>make sure you have positively identified the internal source.
>
>Good luck...
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
David,
In my opinion, optimum stick length will depend on the thickness of your
seat cushions. If you don't have those yet, I'd wait until you do -- at
which point it will become obvious pretty quickly (as you make airplane
noises) where your hand wants to rest naturally.
Don't believe the hype about not trimming the stick. Make it work for you
(my 2 cents).
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roseblade" <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: RV-List: Infinity Aerospace control grips position and stick length
> --> RV-List message posted by: David Roseblade <davidagr@emirates.net.ae>
>
> Listers
>
> I am installing Infinity control grips in my RV6, I notice from a few
> photos from my visits to Oshkosh that some builders fit it offset,
> rather than level across the aircraft Can I have a few opinions from
> both camps. IE, does it cause problems with your wrist , sitting in my
> aircraft with my arm on the arm rest it seems that there is quite a bit
> of angle needed in the wrist joint... Also, what is the optimum length
> for the control stick.
> Regards
>
> David Roseblade
> RV 6 Finishing
> Dubai, UAE
> Persian Gulf
>
>
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