---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/21/04: 26 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:41 AM - Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Dana Overall) 2. 03:59 AM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Kevin Horton) 3. 05:14 AM - Wing Twist (Richard Bibb) 4. 05:36 AM - Re: Compass liquid (cgalley) 5. 05:39 AM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (WFACT01@aol.com) 6. 07:19 AM - Re: Wing Twist (Kyle Boatright) 7. 07:24 AM - Re: Compass liquid (Jim Streit) 8. 07:34 AM - Question for the aerodynamycists (Bluecavu@aol.com) 9. 07:46 AM - Re: Wing Twist (Jerry Springer) 10. 08:56 AM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Skylor Piper) 11. 09:05 AM - Re: Park brake (Leland) 12. 09:08 AM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Kyle Boatright) 13. 09:19 AM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Jerry Springer) 14. 10:56 AM - [ Pat Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 15. 11:05 AM - [ Bobby Hester ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 16. 11:56 AM - Re: Re: Compass liquid (Bruce Green) 17. 12:39 PM - Dan Checkoway in Oct Kitplanes Magazine (Cory Emberson) 18. 12:42 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 19. 02:56 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Kevin Horton) 20. 03:23 PM - Re: Wing Twist (Kevin Horton) 21. 05:03 PM - Camping at Copperstate (Scott Vanartsdalen) 22. 05:48 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Stein Bruch) 23. 07:38 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (RV_8 Pilot) 24. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Compass liquid (Vanremog@aol.com) 25. 08:20 PM - Re: Camping at Copperstate (Vanremog@aol.com) 26. 09:16 PM - Re: Camping at Copperstate (Paul Besing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:41:39 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" As Steve so "eloquently" elevated us on the aviaition pedestal: > > If I have to spend $35,000 to get a good engine either new or a very >well > > documented > > log books then so be it. Wheres the checkbook? > > > > If anyone buys an engine like this the amateur built warning sign should > > include the price > > paid for the engine in large capital letters. > > > > As the saying goes: If you can't afford a good engine, you can't afford >an > > airplane. > > > > As Todd brought us rightfully back into reality: > I was able to find my low time 13B engine core for $160CAD. How >does that make you feel?... no wait, I really don't give a damn. I don't >want to start a flame war here, but just want to make sure we don't climb >too high on our aviation pedestal as this attitude makes us targets. Now >that I own an airplane people seem to think I'm rich. Rich yes, but >certainly not in money. > >do not archive > >S. Todd Bartrim >Turbo 13B Jeez Todd, I bought my non logbooked, non new, non well documented rotary 13B for $400US so my pedestal is obviously nearly 3X's as high as yours:-) Cool!! Sorry though, we obviously can't be in "da club". Oh man, another load of dribble, babble, dabble to lighten the load:-) I'll probably get in trouble with the unofficial list police...................oh, well. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:37 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > >I would also be interested in knowing what strength increase could be >expected from a change from 025 to 032 skins if anyone happens to know >(or swag) this off the top of their heads. Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but the inboard wing would be the same as before. The extra strength in the outboard wing is irrelevant, as a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If you want one piece wing skins, go ahead. But don't use extra strength as an argument for the mod. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:53 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RV-List: Wing Twist --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" I am at the stage of drilling the rear wing attachment bolts on my RV-4 and have discovered I have about a 1/4" wash out in the left wing. Dont know how I got that and it doesn't matter at this point but I am seeking the list's collective wisdom on the best remedy for this. I am thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to "average" the twist's effect by lessening the incidence on the side with the twist. In other words, if the tip has in effect 1/4"more incidence when the root has the same incidence as the other straight wing I would drill the hole such that the twisted wing has 1/8" less incidence at the root so that the "average" along the span is the same. Not optimal, of course but there is no way to straighten the wing with the skins now on it.. I realize that measuring this is difficult and I may have some measurement errors as well so I don't want to get too anal on this. Van's instructions suggest getting the wings square and the sweep alignment within 1/2" or so is OK (their "get real" statement in the supplementary instructions) but I am sure I will have some slight rolling moment if the wings are not straight in incidence. This is a pain and I have no idea how the twist crept into the wing while riveting the skins. The twist seems to be gradual along the entire length of the wing panel as opposed to localized at the tip region. Thoughts? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:36:48 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Compass liquid --> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" Naphtha is another name for white Gasoline. You certainly don't want highly flammable gas in your compass and cockpit. Cy Galley Safety Programs Editor Always looking for ideas and articles for EAA Sport Pilot ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rhett Westerman" Subject: RE: RV-List: Compass liquid > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rhett Westerman" > > Use Naptha > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Chuck > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Compass liquid > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Chuck > > Matthew, > > I think I've still got a few compass overhaul kits and a pint of compass > fluid kickin' around. If you're interested I go search. If I find 'em you > can have 'em, just reimburse me for the shipping. > > Chuck > > don't archive > > Matthew Brandes wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" > > I picked up a used compass that has a low liquid level. What can I use to > replenish/replace it? > > Matthew Brandes, > Van's RV-9A (Fuselage) > EAA Chapter 868/91/1329 > www.n523rv.com > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:58 AM PST US From: WFACT01@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: WFACT01@aol.com CHARLIE-Yes they were pre punched-TOM Tom Whelan Whelan Farms Airport President EAA Chapter 1097 wfact01@aol.com 249 Hard Hill Road North PO Box 426 Bethlehem, CT 06751 Tel: 203-266-5300 Fax: 202-266-5140 EAA Technical/Flight Advisor RV-8 540 LYC (Engine Runs, Taxi-Tests) S-51 Mustang Turbine (Under Construction) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:04 AM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing Twist --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Once upon a time, someone from Van's (perhaps Bill Benedict, when he used to post to the list), suggested choosing a reference point at 2/3 span to set incidence. A good search of the archives might (or might not) find this note. KB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: RV-List: Wing Twist > --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" > > I am at the stage of drilling the rear wing attachment bolts on my RV-4 and > have discovered I have about a 1/4" wash out in the left wing. Dont know > how I got that and it doesn't matter at this point but I am seeking the > list's collective wisdom on the best remedy for this. > > I am thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to "average" the twist's > effect by lessening the incidence on the side with the twist. In other > words, if the tip has in effect 1/4"more incidence when the root has the > same incidence as the other straight wing I would drill the hole such that > the twisted wing has 1/8" less incidence at the root so that the "average" > along the span is the same. Not optimal, of course but there is no way to > straighten the wing with the skins now on it.. > > I realize that measuring this is difficult and I may have some measurement > errors as well so I don't want to get too anal on this. Van's instructions > suggest getting the wings square and the sweep alignment within 1/2" or so > is OK (their "get real" statement in the supplementary instructions) but I > am sure I will have some slight rolling moment if the wings are not straight > in incidence. This is a pain and I have no idea how the twist crept into > the wing while riveting the skins. > > The twist seems to be gradual along the entire length of the wing panel as > opposed to localized at the tip region. > > Thoughts? > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:31 AM PST US From: Jim Streit Subject: Re: RV-List: Compass liquid --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit kerosene is "liquid" used in compasses Matthew Brandes wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" > >I picked up a used compass that has a low liquid level. What can I use to >replenish/replace it? > >Matthew Brandes, >Van's RV-9A (Fuselage) >EAA Chapter 868/91/1329 >www.n523rv.com > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:01 AM PST US From: Bluecavu@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Question for the aerodynamycists --> RV-List message posted by: Bluecavu@aol.com >I am going to install a NACA vent on the side of the forward fuselage on the RV-4 I am rebuilding.=A0 I am thinking of installing it right below the cowl cheek angled downward so that the longitudinal axis of the vent is parallel to the logitudnal axis of the cowl cheek extension.=A0 My thought is the pressure will be positive in this area < I have one there on my -4 on the left side for the reasons you stated. Works *very* well (you could style your hair in front of it). I am thinking of adding another on the right side -but haven't gotten around to it. My vent is level with the longitudinal axis of the fuse (I squared it to the lower cowl/fuse line as I recall). It also looks good this way -as the vent angle goes the opposite direction from the cheek angles. Scott N4ZW ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:45 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing Twist --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Richard Bibb wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" > >I am at the stage of drilling the rear wing attachment bolts on my RV-4 and >have discovered I have about a 1/4" wash out in the left wing. Dont know >how I got that and it doesn't matter at this point but I am seeking the >list's collective wisdom on the best remedy for this. > > > I would suggest to just forget it but Kyles suggestion is a good one also measure the incidence farther out on the wing to average your twist. Over all I don't think you would even notice a 1/4 twist and if you did you could even it out using the heavy wing process on the ailerons. Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:55 AM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper --- Kevin Horton wrote: > Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but > the inboard wing > would be the same as before. The extra strength in > the outboard wing > is irrelevant...snip... > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > Ottawa, Canada > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ Are you sure about that? The two RV-8's that had in-flight structural failures (that I know about) had the wings fail right at the inboard edge of the aileron. __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:12 AM PST US From: Leland Subject: Re: RV-List: Park brake --> RV-List message posted by: Leland My Matco parking brake valve is for sale for $50 including shipping to the lower 48. (Van's new price is $95 plus shipping) I installed it on my RV9A but removed it because the lever interfered with my rudder pedal. My pedals are fully forward to make more room for my long legs. Please contact me off list. Do not archive. Leland Collins Pleasanton, California ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:23 AM PST US From: "Kyle Boatright" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" Two? I think we're all aware of the factory aircraft crashing, but what was the other one? KB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skylor Piper" Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins > --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > > > --- Kevin Horton wrote: > > > Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but > > the inboard wing > > would be the same as before. The extra strength in > > the outboard wing > > is irrelevant...snip... > > > Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > > Ottawa, Canada > > http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > > Are you sure about that? The two RV-8's that had > in-flight structural failures (that I know about) had > the wings fail right at the inboard edge of the aileron. > > > __________________________________ > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:48 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Skylor Piper wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > > >--- Kevin Horton wrote: > > > >>Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but >>the inboard wing >>would be the same as before. The extra strength in >>the outboard wing >>is irrelevant...snip... >> >> > > > >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >>Ottawa, Canada >>http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ >> >> > >Are you sure about that? The two RV-8's that had >in-flight structural failures (that I know about) had >the wings fail right at the inboard edge of the aileron. > > > > > Skylor what were the deaails of the second in flight failure? Jerry ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:26 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Pat Long ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Pat Long Subject: Vernatherm http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/PGLong@aol.com.08.21.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:37 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Bobby Hester ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Bobby Hester Subject: Matco Parking Brake http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/bhester@hopkinsville.net.08.21.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:56:41 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Compass liquid From: Bruce Green --> RV-List message posted by: Bruce Green Years ago, I used some baby oil. Didn't freeze and damped the compass somewhat. On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:39:09 EDT Oldsfolks@aol.com writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com > > The Rec. Aviation Homebuilt site on Google had quite a discussion on > this > some time back. One party finally settled on Toner for copy > machine. He said it > is slightly more viscous than the original and was clear. Maybe > easier on > gaskets too ? > I intend to use it in mine,soon. > > > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor > Charleston,Arkansas > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers > > > = > = > = > = > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:43 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RV-List: Dan Checkoway in Oct Kitplanes Magazine --> RV-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Hi Dan and all - I just wanted to give you a heads-up that your comments about financing your RV-7 will be in the October issue of Kitplanes magazine, which should hit the stands soon. And thanks again for sharing your story with me - I appreciate it very much! best, Cory Emberson DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:18 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" No kidding? That surprises me. OK cool. Then I feel better then... and so it is only cosmetics as a reason to do one piece wing skins? Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > >I would also be interested in knowing what strength increase could be >expected from a change from 025 to 032 skins if anyone happens to know >(or swag) this off the top of their heads. Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but the inboard wing would be the same as before. The extra strength in the outboard wing is irrelevant, as a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. If you want one piece wing skins, go ahead. But don't use extra strength as an argument for the mod. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ == == == == ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:56:46 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Well, the problem is we don't know what was going on in that accident, so it is very hard to know what loads the wing experienced. How fast were they going, what was the aircraft weight and CG, how many g were pulled, were the ailerons deflected, etc. Yes, maybe thicker lower wing skins could have allowed that part of the wing to carry the loads that were applied to it. Or maybe not. And even if that part of the wing could carry those loads, we have now changed the way the loads are distributed on the wing, so we don't know where the weak link is, and how much load the weakest part of the wing could carry before it fails. I'm aware of at least two incidents where RV-8s have had landing gear box failure during landing, and one case where an RV-8A had a nose wheel leg collapse. Should builders arbitrarily beef up the landing gear box and nose landing gear legs too? Where does it end? A heavier aircraft is less safe than a lighter aircraft, as the stall speed is higher, which means the lowest possible touchdown speed is higher. The structure of the heavier aircraft has to carry higher loads for a given manoeuvre, so it is more likely to fail. The best answer is to carefully design the aircraft to be just strong enough to withstand the design loads, and to operate the aircraft so the design loads are not exceeded. Just adding structure on the "That Looks About Right" principle just changes the stress distribution, and puts higher loads somewhere else. I'm not a structures engineer, so all the above is worth what you paid for it. I do have a mechanical engineering degree, but have never really used it in anger. Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > >No kidding? That surprises me. >OK cool. Then I feel better then... and so it is only cosmetics as a >reason to do one piece wing skins? > >Mike >Do not archive >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins > >--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" >> >> >>I would also be interested in knowing what strength increase could be >>expected from a change from 025 to 032 skins if anyone happens to know >>(or swag) this off the top of their heads. > >Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, but the inboard wing >would be the same as before. The extra strength in the outboard wing >is irrelevant, as a chain is only as strong as the weakest link. > >If you want one piece wing skins, go ahead. But don't use extra >strength as an argument for the mod. >-- >Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) >Ottawa, Canada >http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:59 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing Twist --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton You definitely should use a reference point further out than mid-span. A left-to-right difference in incidence will have more effect on the outboard wing than the inboard wing, as it has a longer moment to work with. I don't feel like crunching the math, but Kyle's 2/3 span number feels correct intuitively to me. Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" > >Once upon a time, someone from Van's (perhaps Bill Benedict, when he used to >post to the list), suggested choosing a reference point at 2/3 span to set >incidence. A good search of the archives might (or might not) find this >note. > >KB >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Bibb" >To: >Subject: RV-List: Wing Twist > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" >> >> I am at the stage of drilling the rear wing attachment bolts on my RV-4 >and >> have discovered I have about a 1/4" wash out in the left wing. Dont know >> how I got that and it doesn't matter at this point but I am seeking the >> list's collective wisdom on the best remedy for this. >> >> I am thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to "average" the >twist's >> effect by lessening the incidence on the side with the twist. In other >> words, if the tip has in effect 1/4"more incidence when the root has the >> same incidence as the other straight wing I would drill the hole such that >> the twisted wing has 1/8" less incidence at the root so that the "average" >> along the span is the same. Not optimal, of course but there is no way to >> straighten the wing with the skins now on it.. >> >> I realize that measuring this is difficult and I may have some measurement >> errors as well so I don't want to get too anal on this. Van's >instructions >> suggest getting the wings square and the sweep alignment within 1/2" or so >> is OK (their "get real" statement in the supplementary instructions) but I >> am sure I will have some slight rolling moment if the wings are not >straight >> in incidence. This is a pain and I have no idea how the twist crept into >> the wing while riveting the skins. >> >> The twist seems to be gradual along the entire length of the wing panel as >> opposed to localized at the tip region. >> > > Thoughts? >> > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:04 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate rv4 --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen Anyone on the list ever tent camped at Copperstate? How's access to food? (It's dismal if you arrive early at OSH) What's the weather like that time of year? Would I be better off in a hotel? do not archive -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:05 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" WELL SAID KEVIN!!!! I see this all to often in a growing number of homebuilders lately. For example (and one I see quite a bit).....If AWG16 wire is sufficient to the wingtip, why don't I go ahead and run AWG14, AWG12 or even AWG10 wire out there?!?!? If I need AWG18 for master relay power, why not run AWG16 or AWG14?!? Far too many people are making "improvements" based on something they hear 3rd hand, or just simply assume that "if some is good, more must be better, and most must be best"! I'm really not harping here, just relating a fact that I'm seeing more and more in the past year or two. Airplane structures, systems, electronics, etc.. are not simple "linear equations" where more of everything is better, sometimes yes, but certainly not always. Now I'm not saying you should abandon any improvements. Certainly there are a some areas where people have learned by experience that additional metal, thicker wire, etc.. are better. That being said, just because you "heard it from some old guy who used to work on airplanes in the 40's", doesn't mean it applies to these RV's exactly. Another reason I see people doing "things" is that they saw or heard of someone else doing it and think by association that therefore it must be good. Once again, sometimes yes, but not always. Anyway, just be smart about it and happy building. Lot's of smart people out there building lot's of nice airplane. Many of them better than mine (but not all)!! Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Well, the problem is we don't know what was going on in that accident, so it is very hard to know what loads the wing experienced. How fast were they going, what was the aircraft weight and CG, how many g were pulled, were the ailerons deflected, etc. Yes, maybe thicker lower wing skins could have allowed that part of the wing to carry the loads that were applied to it. Or maybe not. And even if that part of the wing could carry those loads, we have now changed the way the loads are distributed on the wing, so we don't know where the weak link is, and how much load the weakest part of the wing could carry before it fails. I'm aware of at least two incidents where RV-8s have had landing gear box failure during landing, and one case where an RV-8A had a nose wheel leg collapse. Should builders arbitrarily beef up the landing gear box and nose landing gear legs too? Where does it end? A heavier aircraft is less safe than a lighter aircraft, as the stall speed is higher, which means the lowest possible touchdown speed is higher. The structure of the heavier aircraft has to carry higher loads for a given manoeuvre, so it is more likely to fail. The best answer is to carefully design the aircraft to be just strong enough to withstand the design loads, and to operate the aircraft so the design loads are not exceeded. Just adding structure on the "That Looks About Right" principle just changes the stress distribution, and puts higher loads somewhere else. I'm not a structures engineer, so all the above is worth what you paid for it. I do have a mechanical engineering degree, but have never really used it in anger. Kevin Horton ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:57 PM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" When was the second RV-8 structural (in-flight) failure?? IMVHO, as a non-practicing engineer, I believe there would be some small structural benefit from single piece and/or thicker wing skins. But I also couldn't agree more that lighter airplanes are better all the way around - more efficient, faster, less damage with hard or crash landings. I feel very comfortable flying my -8 the way I do with standard lap-jointed skins. 2 Bryan ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:28 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Compass liquid --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/21/2004 11:57:47 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mailindex@juno.com writes: Years ago, I used some baby oil. Didn't freeze and damped the compass somewhat. ============================================== I've always wondered whether DOT 5 brake fluid wouldn't be the most ideal compass fluid. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 708 hrs) ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:02 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:04:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, svanarts@yahoo.com writes: Anyone on the list ever tent camped at Copperstate? How's access to food? (It's dismal if you arrive early at OSH) What's the weather like that time of year? Would I be better off in a hotel? ============================================= Weather is still warm. The grounds there were messy due to blowing dirt and hay last year. We had a motel in Casa Grande and would recommend this again, although they indicated that they were going to be planting grass thruout. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 708 hrs) ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:16:20 PM PST US From: "Paul Besing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" Hot and cool. Could be too hot, depending on the year. They do NOT have grass throughout. Most of it is dead, but they are trying to bring it back. I'd recommend the motels in Casa Grande as well. I fly over (and land at) PRA just about every day. I'll keep checking it out. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon) http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Kitlog Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate > --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com > > > In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:04:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > svanarts@yahoo.com writes: > > Anyone on the list ever tent camped at Copperstate? How's access to food? > (It's dismal if you arrive early at OSH) What's the weather like that time of > year? Would I be better off in a hotel? > > > ============================================= > > Weather is still warm. The grounds there were messy due to blowing dirt and > hay last year. We had a motel in Casa Grande and would recommend this > again, although they indicated that they were going to be planting grass thruout. > > > GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 708 hrs) > >