---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/22/04: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:35 AM - Re: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 2. 07:44 AM - Re: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! (cgalley) 3. 11:34 AM - [ Gary Gunn ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 4. 11:53 AM - Flight Grip stick grips (thomas a. sargent) 5. 12:34 PM - Re: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 6. 12:56 PM - wing wash out (Wheeler North) 7. 02:20 PM - engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs (Wheeler North) 8. 02:29 PM - Re: engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs (RV8ter@aol.com) 9. 04:26 PM - Re: Camping at Copperstate (Scott Vanartsdalen) 10. 04:41 PM - Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Steve & Denise) 11. 05:13 PM - Re: engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs (Charlie Kuss) 12. 06:26 PM - Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Steve & Denise) 13. 06:40 PM - Navaid problem (Jerry Calvert) 14. 06:47 PM - Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Jim Sears) 15. 06:55 PM - Re: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Jim Sears) 16. 06:57 PM - Re: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (Charlie England) 17. 07:06 PM - Re: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay (linn walters) 18. 07:54 PM - Re: Navaid problem (Albert Gardner) 19. 08:07 PM - Wheel Fairings - Balancing Act (Tim Bryan) 20. 08:17 PM - Re: Navaid problem (Sam Buchanan) 21. 08:37 PM - Re: Wheel Fairings - Balancing Act (Vanremog@aol.com) 22. 09:55 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Skylor Piper) 23. 10:34 PM - Re: RV8 one piece wings skins (Jerry Springer) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:35:16 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com In a message dated 8/12/2004 1:31:21 PM Central Standard Time, jhelms@i1.net writes: http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/roi/articles/0,15114,654762,00. html HAS ANYONE DOWNLOADED THIS ARTICLE ? I AM UNABLE TO LOCATE IT ON THE WEBSITE. WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE A COPY OFF LIST. THANKS, DOUG PRESTON DOUGPFLYRV@AOL.COM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:44:02 AM PST US From: "cgalley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! --> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" After the down load fails, select the address, right arrow and type ".html" on the end without the quotes. Works fine. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! > --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com > > In a message dated 8/12/2004 1:31:21 PM Central Standard Time, jhelms@i1.net > writes: > http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/roi/articles/0,15114,654762,00. > html > HAS ANYONE DOWNLOADED THIS ARTICLE ? I AM UNABLE TO LOCATE IT ON THE > WEBSITE. WOULD GREATLY APPRECIATE A COPY OFF LIST. > > THANKS, > > DOUG PRESTON > DOUGPFLYRV@AOL.COM > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:34:18 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Gary Gunn ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Gary Gunn Subject: Grand Canyon http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/ggunn@qwest.net.08.22.2004/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 AM PST US From: "thomas a. sargent" Subject: RV-List: Flight Grip stick grips --> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" Has any one on the list installed Flight Grip stick grips in their plane? Even if you just checked one out at Oshkosh, I'd be interested to hear opinions about how it fit your hand and how the switches felt, etc.. Thanks, -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Landing gear ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:19 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Fortune Magazine - Nice article on Vans! --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Thanks ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:58 PM PST US From: Wheeler North "'owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com '"@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: wing wash out --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North In my opinion the most important aspect of setting the wing is to be dang sure there is proper edge distance on the rear spar flanges. Having measured a number of aurplanes and RVs for general rigging I can assure that its amazing what will fly relatively straight. A 1/4" washout won't do anything, most likely. If it does introduce anything it would be most likely only be noticed during a stall, translated to a general preference to go one way over the other. If you ran your riveting process from one end to the other, then that is what probably introduced the shift, as the metal surrounding the rivet holes is stretched, and will introduce accumlative shift over a long run. The worst case would be to do one side (top or bottom) one way, then the other side the opposite way, then do something different on the other wing. As a general rule though, during rigging shoot for symetry, and average out where its not possible to get exact symetry. Using the span point of 1/2 or 2/3s will do, and I doubt one could ever tell the difference in performance effects using one vs the other. Get it close without going nutso on it, as you will need to make final adjustments by flying it rather than measuring things no matter how much you measure it now. Just think about the difference in relative angle of wind on the left side vs the right side in the prop influence area, yet they all seem to fly just fine even if they are perfectly symetrical. Robust structure is far more important on these aircraft than is precise rigging. W ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:12 PM PST US From: Wheeler North "'owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com '"@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Well, once again the list provided a useful jog to my rapidly degrading mental faculties. After a recent discussion with Andre B. re his fuel injection problems he reminded me of an old Lycoming service letter which allows most of the IO-360s to have their timing retarded to 20 degs from the normal factory setting of 25 degs used for most Lycoming engines. Although the SL doesn't fully explain this, it is an option for those engine installations where detonation and cooling are an issue. For some strange reason this finally gelled in my head with the previous thirty years of experience floating around in there and answered the question I have had in my head as to why many RVs have such a wide range of CHTs from one aircraft to the next given they all have the same relative engines(mostly). Years ago I worked in a shop where we had this strange little Mercedes two seater with a big ass engine in it. The engine was fairly high time and the owner was always complaining about how hot the thing ran. So we eventually went through everything including a complete teardown overhaul, reteardown and I finally ended up calling up the old guy in Germany who said the timing specs for that engine were wrong and to back them off two degrees. I whined about this until as it couldn't possibly have that much effect. He promtly reminded me who the old guy was and told me to just shut up and do it. Dang old guy was right, two degrees of timing retard had a major effect on the operating temperature of that engine. Then later on I had a few customers who regularly got stuck in border traffic so I retarded their timing a few degrees and voila, same thing, cooler temps. So, having had several conversations with many of you about CHTs being kinda cold, or hot, once this re-epiphany fired from my left neuron to my right neuron I decided to give it a try. At 26 degs BTDC my CHTs are about 440 during a long climb out, and on a hot day will go beyond 450 if I don't drop the nose. EGTs tend to stay about 1250 when leaned to short of peak. After a couple of initial flights yesterday with the timing set at 22.5 degs BTDC my CHTs were in the 325 to 350 range and the EGTs were up around 1425. Now this jives with what I would think would happen as the heat, being started later, is now getting more rejection through the exhaust, but I am very suprised at how much change occured between a shift of 3.5 degrees. Since I have the cheapo CHT/EGT gauge with the funcky switches I am not very confident in any hard numbers I am listing here, but the relative change does seem to be significant. Now, with all that said one might then want to discuss the effect retarding or advancing timing will have on power. In general retarding timing away from that maximum point where the engine will begin to misfire or detonate will reduce power as it shifts the maximum centroid of pressure away from that optimum range where the pressure cycle will be fully utilized converting to the most rotational power into the crankshaft. (energy conversion cyclically changes from 0% at 0degsTDC to 100% at 90degsATDC) But this would only be noticed at full power since aircraft engines don't vary timing with engine RPM or load as cars do. Well I didn't notice any loss at full blast going down the runway, which is the only time I ever plow around at that power setting. In fact it seemed to me that the engine was running a tad bit smoother so may have actually felt a little more powerful. (truely a subjective comment based upon not one schred of empirical evidence) In truth what has happened is this. There is some RPM value to which Lycoming's setting of 25 degs causes the most efficeint conversion of pressure into torque, (I would guess roughly 2300 to 2400 RPM) By changing the timing one is just shifting where this occurs on the RPM scale. Since reciprocating engines will vary power output with changes in timing at max RPM, but if you don't fly at that RPM much, than your power really won't be effected by a small change in timing. You might notice a slight change in control knob position for a known MAP/RPM setting, but if you set it to that MAP/RPM it will still produce the same power as before, or at least so close that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm thinking the same will be true for fuel efficiency, but will have to fly awhile to prove that. So, if your CHTS are very low, or too hgh, check your timing and try moving it few degrees(retard for cooler, advanced for hotter). I would not recommend going over 25 degs though as these aircooled engines are low RPM, large piston, thermally critical assemblies, just looking for a detonation to happen. The last thing I want to say is that I played with getting the timing exact between the mags vs being about a deg off from each other. Although I never flew with them at very different settings, it did ground run noticeably smoother with them set as close to each other as possible. (one degree off was amazingly rougher at 1500 RPM) So if some of y'all with them fancy recording engine things wanted to try this I would love to see the hard EGT/CHT data from say 25 degs vs 22.5 degs at max effort and cruise climb. (I know its a total pain to get the cowl off and change this a few times, particularly if the gasket tears as it did on my left mag, but if you're in there tinkering, it would be way cool to see hard accurate data) W ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:29:21 PM PST US From: RV8ter@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs --> RV-List message posted by: RV8ter@aol.com My io-360-a1b6d lycoming manual (and info on their web site) excludes my engine from being allowed to be retarded to 20 BTDC from 25. Doesn't say way. Anybody know FOR SURE? do not archive In a message dated 8/22/2004 5:21:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us writes: --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Well, once again the list provided a useful jog to my rapidly degrading mental faculties. After a recent discussion with Andre B. re his fuel injection problems he reminded me of an old Lycoming service letter which allows most of the IO-360s to have their timing retarded to 20 degs from the normal factory setting of 25 degs used for most Lycoming engines. Although the SL doesn't fully explain this, it is an option for those engine installations where detonation and cooling are an issue. For some strange reason this finally gelled in my head with the previous thirty years of experience floating around in there and answered the question I have had in my head as to why many RVs have such a wide range of CHTs from one aircraft to the next given they all have the same relative engines(mostly). Years ago I worked in a shop where we had this strange little Mercedes two seater with a big ass engine in it. The engine was fairly high time and the owner was always complaining about how hot the thing ran. So we eventually went through everything including a complete teardown overhaul, reteardown and I finally ended up calling up the old guy in Germany who said the timing specs for that engine were wrong and to back them off two degrees. I whined about this until as it couldn't possibly have that much effect. He promtly reminded me who the old guy was and told me to just shut up and do it. Dang old guy was right, two degrees of timing retard had a major effect on the operating temperature of that engine. Then later on I had a few customers who regularly got stuck in border traffic so I retarded their timing a few degrees and voila, same thing, cooler temps. So, having had several conversations with many of you about CHTs being kinda cold, or hot, once this re-epiphany fired from my left neuron to my right neuron I decided to give it a try. At 26 degs BTDC my CHTs are about 440 during a long climb out, and on a hot day will go beyond 450 if I don't drop the nose. EGTs tend to stay about 1250 when leaned to short of peak. After a couple of initial flights yesterday with the timing set at 22.5 degs BTDC my CHTs were in the 325 to 350 range and the EGTs were up around 1425. Now this jives with what I would think would happen as the heat, being started later, is now getting more rejection through the exhaust, but I am very suprised at how much change occured between a shift of 3.5 degrees. Since I have the cheapo CHT/EGT gauge with the funcky switches I am not very confident in any hard numbers I am listing here, but the relative change does seem to be significant. Now, with all that said one might then want to discuss the effect retarding or advancing timing will have on power. In general retarding timing away from that maximum point where the engine will begin to misfire or detonate will reduce power as it shifts the maximum centroid of pressure away from that optimum range where the pressure cycle will be fully utilized converting to the most rotational power into the crankshaft. (energy conversion cyclically changes from 0% at 0degsTDC to 100% at 90degsATDC) But this would only be noticed at full power since aircraft engines don't vary timing with engine RPM or load as cars do. Well I didn't notice any loss at full blast going down the runway, which is the only time I ever plow around at that power setting. In fact it seemed to me that the engine was running a tad bit smoother so may have actually felt a little more powerful. (truely a subjective comment based upon not one schred of empirical evidence) In truth what has happened is this. There is some RPM value to which Lycoming's setting of 25 degs causes the most efficeint conversion of pressure into torque, (I would guess roughly 2300 to 2400 RPM) By changing the timing one is just shifting where this occurs on the RPM scale. Since reciprocating engines will vary power output with changes in timing at max RPM, but if you don't fly at that RPM much, than your power really won't be effected by a small change in timing. You might notice a slight change in control knob position for a known MAP/RPM setting, but if you set it to that MAP/RPM it will still produce the same power as before, or at least so close that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm thinking the same will be true for fuel efficiency, but will have to fly awhile to prove that. So, if your CHTS are very low, or too hgh, check your timing and try moving it few degrees(retard for cooler, advanced for hotter). I would not recommend going over 25 degs though as these aircooled engines are low RPM, large piston, thermally critical assemblies, just looking for a detonation to happen. The last thing I want to say is that I played with getting the timing exact between the mags vs being about a deg off from each other. Although I never flew with them at very different settings, it did ground run noticeably smoother with them set as close to each other as possible. (one degree off was amazingly rougher at 1500 RPM) So if some of y'all with them fancy recording engine things wanted to try this I would love to see the hard EGT/CHT data from say 25 degs vs 22.5 degs at max effort and cruise climb. (I know its a total pain to get the cowl off and change this a few times, particularly if the gasket tears as it did on my left mag, but if you're in there tinkering, it would be way cool to see hard accurate data) W ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:19 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen Ah... Never trust a picture on a website. I'll be there too. Shuttling between Holiday Inn and the airport. Thanks for the 411. Paul Besing wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" Hot and cool. Could be too hot, depending on the year. They do NOT have grass throughout. Most of it is dead, but they are trying to bring it back. I'd recommend the motels in Casa Grande as well. I fly over (and land at) PRA just about every day. I'll keep checking it out. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold (RV-10 Soon) http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing Kitlog Builder's Log Software http://www.kitlog.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Camping at Copperstate > --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com > > > In a message dated 8/21/2004 5:04:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > svanarts@yahoo.com writes: > > Anyone on the list ever tent camped at Copperstate? How's access to food? > (It's dismal if you arrive early at OSH) What's the weather like that time of > year? Would I be better off in a hotel? > > > ============================================= > > Weather is still warm. The grounds there were messy due to blowing dirt and > hay last year. We had a motel in Casa Grande and would recommend this > again, although they indicated that they were going to be planting grass thruout. > > > GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 708 hrs) > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:49 PM PST US From: "Steve & Denise" Subject: RV-List: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" I'm by no means a rich man. I had a dream and built it. I'd rather be in buried in $35,000 of debt than 6 feet of dirt. Maybe one could use this engine as a block and get it totally overhauled but I've priced that option out and it ends up almost as much as a new engine. My spouse deserves better than a overhauled Lycoming with no history or documentation. Steve RV7A 70015 71629 > > > Time: 11:26:08 AM PST US > Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay > From: "Bartrim, Todd" > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bartrim, Todd" > > > If I have to spend $35,000 to get a good engine either new or a very well > > documented > > log books then so be it. Wheres the checkbook? > > > > If anyone buys an engine like this the amateur built warning sign should > > include the price > > paid for the engine in large capital letters. > > > > As the saying goes: If you can't afford a good engine, you can't afford an > > airplane. > > > > > Whoaa! I try to stay out of things like this but.... Is aviation the > exclusive domain of the rich and privileged? $35,000 is more than some people > make in a year. Does this mean they have no business building an airplane? There > are other alternatives and buying this engine as a core for rebuild may be > an affordable alternative for some. > Not all builders have an unlimited chequebook allowing them to quickly > assemble a quickbuild plane. Some whom could afford it, still prefer to build > every piece themselves, which may include rebuilding the engine. They may be capable > of superior workmanship... would they still require a warning sign including > engine price posted on their aircraft? > I was able to find my low time 13B engine core for $160CAD. How does that > make you feel?... no wait, I really don't give a damn. I don't want to start > a flame war here, but just want to make sure we don't climb too high on our > aviation pedestal as this attitude makes us targets. Now that I own an airplane > people seem to think I'm rich. Rich yes, but certainly not in money. > > do not archive > > S. Todd Bartrim > Turbo 13B > RX-9endurance > C-FSTB > http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm > > "Imagination is more important than knowledge" > -Albert Einstein ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:18 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: engine timing vs CHTs/EGTs --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Wheeler, What the hell is wrong with you! You one of them damned radicals who actually thinks that one repeatable test is worth a thousand expert opinions??? :-) You hit the nail on the head, as usual. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Well, > >once again the list provided a useful jog to my rapidly degrading mental >faculties. After a recent discussion with Andre B. re his fuel injection >problems he reminded me of an old Lycoming service letter which allows most >of the IO-360s to have their timing retarded to 20 degs from the normal >factory setting of 25 degs used for most Lycoming engines. Although the SL >doesn't fully explain this, it is an option for those engine installations >where detonation and cooling are an issue. > >For some strange reason this finally gelled in my head with the previous >thirty years of experience floating around in there and answered the >question I have had in my head as to why many RVs have such a wide range of >CHTs from one aircraft to the next given they all have the same relative >engines(mostly). > >Years ago I worked in a shop where we had this strange little Mercedes two >seater with a big ass engine in it. The engine was fairly high time and the >owner was always complaining about how hot the thing ran. So we eventually >went through everything including a complete teardown overhaul, reteardown >and I finally ended up calling up the old guy in Germany who said the timing >specs for that engine were wrong and to back them off two degrees. I whined >about this until as it couldn't possibly have that much effect. He promtly >reminded me who the old guy was and told me to just shut up and do it. Dang >old guy was right, two degrees of timing retard had a major effect on the >operating temperature of that engine. > >Then later on I had a few customers who regularly got stuck in border >traffic so I retarded their timing a few degrees and voila, same thing, >cooler temps. > >So, having had several conversations with many of you about CHTs being kinda >cold, or hot, once this re-epiphany fired from my left neuron to my right >neuron I decided to give it a try. > >At 26 degs BTDC my CHTs are about 440 during a long climb out, and on a hot >day will go beyond 450 if I don't drop the nose. EGTs tend to stay about >1250 when leaned to short of peak. > >After a couple of initial flights yesterday with the timing set at 22.5 degs >BTDC my CHTs were in the 325 to 350 range and the EGTs were up around 1425. > >Now this jives with what I would think would happen as the heat, being >started later, is now getting more rejection through the exhaust, but I am >very suprised at how much change occured between a shift of 3.5 degrees. > >Since I have the cheapo CHT/EGT gauge with the funcky switches I am not very >confident in any hard numbers I am listing here, but the relative change >does seem to be significant. > >Now, with all that said one might then want to discuss the effect retarding >or advancing timing will have on power. In general retarding timing away >from that maximum point where the engine will begin to misfire or detonate >will reduce power as it shifts the maximum centroid of pressure away from >that optimum range where the pressure cycle will be fully utilized >converting to the most rotational power into the crankshaft. (energy >conversion cyclically changes from 0% at 0degsTDC to 100% at 90degsATDC) > >But this would only be noticed at full power since aircraft engines don't >vary timing with engine RPM or load as cars do. Well I didn't notice any >loss at full blast going down the runway, which is the only time I ever plow >around at that power setting. In fact it seemed to me that the engine was >running a tad bit smoother so may have actually felt a little more powerful. >(truely a subjective comment based upon not one schred of empirical >evidence) > >In truth what has happened is this. There is some RPM value to which >Lycoming's setting of 25 degs causes the most efficeint conversion of >pressure into torque, (I would guess roughly 2300 to 2400 RPM) By changing >the timing one is just shifting where this occurs on the RPM scale. Since >reciprocating engines will vary power output with changes in timing at max >RPM, but if you don't fly at that RPM much, than your power really won't be >effected by a small change in timing. You might notice a slight change in >control knob position for a known MAP/RPM setting, but if you set it to that >MAP/RPM it will still produce the same power as before, or at least so close >that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm thinking the same will >be true for fuel efficiency, but will have to fly awhile to prove that. > >So, > >if your CHTS are very low, or too hgh, check your timing and try moving it >few degrees(retard for cooler, advanced for hotter). I would not recommend >going over 25 degs though as these aircooled engines are low RPM, large >piston, thermally critical assemblies, just looking for a detonation to >happen. > >The last thing I want to say is that I played with getting the timing exact >between the mags vs being about a deg off from each other. Although I never >flew with them at very different settings, it did ground run noticeably >smoother with them set as close to each other as possible. (one degree off >was amazingly rougher at 1500 RPM) > >So if some of y'all with them fancy recording engine things wanted to try >this I would love to see the hard EGT/CHT data from say 25 degs vs 22.5 degs >at max effort and cruise climb. (I know its a total pain to get the cowl off >and change this a few times, particularly if the gasket tears as it did on >my left mag, but if you're in there tinkering, it would be way cool to see >hard accurate data) > >W > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:59 PM PST US From: "Steve & Denise" Subject: RV-List: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" do not archive I have great respect for someone that can take an engine like this and turn it into a reliable solution for their RV. I take back my remarks on low cost solutions. What would be your estimate on the final value of the engine once everything is installed? I'm envious. I'm good at riveting, painting and avionics but I do not possess the skills to start an engine project like this. Steve RV7A 70015 71629 > > > I was able to find my low time 13B engine core for $160CAD. How > >does that make you feel?... no wait, I really don't give a damn. I don't > >want to start a flame war here, but just want to make sure we don't climb > >too high on our aviation pedestal as this attitude makes us targets. Now > >that I own an airplane people seem to think I'm rich. Rich yes, but > >certainly not in money. > > > >do not archive > > > >S. Todd Bartrim > >Turbo 13B > > Jeez Todd, I bought my non logbooked, non new, non well documented rotary > 13B for $400US so my pedestal is obviously nearly 3X's as high as yours:-) > Cool!! Sorry though, we obviously can't be in "da club". > > Oh man, another load of dribble, babble, dabble to lighten the load:-) I'll > probably get in trouble with the unofficial list > police...................oh, well. > > > Dana Overall > Richmond, KY i39 > RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" > Finish kit > 13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg > http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg > do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:01 PM PST US From: "Jerry Calvert" Subject: RV-List: Navaid problem --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Calvert" I am asking this for a friend who is having problems with his Navaid. He has the Navaid coupled to a Garmin 296. When he is intercepting a course, he feels a bump in the stick when he reaches the new course line, but instead of turning on course, it stays on heading and doesn't make the turn. Has anyone had this problem and resolved it? Jerry Calvert Edmond Ok RV6 N296JC ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:45 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > I'm by no means a rich man. I had a dream and built it. > > I'd rather be in buried in $35,000 of debt than 6 feet of dirt. > I've tried to stay out of this; but, I've found this thread rather insulting, at times. In the years I've flown since 1982, I have yet to fly behind a brand new engine. In fact, most of the engines I've flown behind were rebuilt ones. Because many of them were rentals during my neophyte days as a pilot, I really didn't care as long as the engines performed as promised. Some were rebuilt by the factory and some in the field. I've found that none did any better than the others, regardless of where they were overhauled, if properly maintained and exercised. To suggest that one has to go deeply in debt to stay out of the dirt is bordering on foolishness. Many aircraft today fly very well on rebuilt engines. All three of the aircraft I've owned have rebuilt engines. At least two of them sport field overhauls. Scooter (my -6A) is one of them. In fact, I was heavily involved in its overhaul from tear down to rebuild. > Maybe one could use this engine as a block and get it totally overhauled > but I've priced that option out and it ends up almost as much as a new > engine. > Yes, it can cost nearly as much. However, one can oftentimes find a good core that doesn't break the bank. It also may help if you have a good source of parts that doesn't help to break the bank, as well. When I rebuilt the O320 for Scooter, I wanted a good engine. By going the used route and rebuilding, I saved enough to pay for the entire firewall forward, to include the fixed pitch Sensenich prop, for less than the price of an engine through Van's. I still find it hard to believe that one can't save money over buying new. > My spouse deserves better than a overhauled Lycoming with no history or > documentation. > After three hundred plus hours, the engine on my RV is still running. I haven't had to ditch Scooter because of a bad engine, yet. In fact, I've never had to land due to an engine stoppage since I started flying in 1982, even when I had no idea of the history of the engines I was flying behind. I guess you can see I'm a little less skeptical than you about the engines we use; but, I can also say I'm far from foolish. Granted, I understand where you're coming from; but, it's kind of an insult that anything less than a new engine is not good enough for our spouses, either. Well, I think my airplane with its rebuilt engine is safe enough for my spouse, my grandchildren, and the children I've taken up in the Young Eagles program. Even though it had no log book, it was gone through very carefully and rebuilt to like new specs. I'm no more afraid of that engine than I would be of a factory new one. At least I know how it was built and by whom. I have no idea who builds the new ones. Now, let's end this foolishness and get back to the building at hand. Buy new if that suits you; but, don't try to belittle those of us who are a bit more frugal and find other avenues than going deeply in debt to fill our dreams. If I had to go deeply in debt to own an airplane, or engine, I'd not own an airplane. I didn't have to go debt and have Scooter to show for it. After having flown Scooter to another fly-in today and watched people as they looked at it, and had many ask questions about it, I think I did the right thing for me. I'm proud of it, even if the engine is used and rebuilt. I'll bet I have as big a RV grin as the anyone who has the best of everything in his/her RV. I'm sure I speak for most of us who have gone the same route. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) RV-7A #70317 (Started wings. Own a pile of parts for a O320 rebuild) EAA Tech Counselor EAA Flight Advisor do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:18 PM PST US From: Jim Sears Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Sears > I have great respect for someone that can take an engine like this and > turn it into a reliable solution for their RV. I take back my remarks on low > cost solutions. > Wait a minute! I must have missed the boat! I got the idea that a low cost engine is not good enough! You'd rather go in debt than have your spouse ride behind a low cost option! > What would be your estimate on the final value of the engine once everything > is installed? > A 13B is going to cost less than a Lyc; but, even a Lyc rebuild can be a cheaper solution than buying new and still give you a good bang for the buck. > I'm envious. I'm good at riveting, painting and avionics but I do not possess the skills > to start an engine project like this. > Steve, I'll bet you didn't always have those other skills, either. The nice thing about overhauling a Lyc engine is that you can find plenty of help. Doing an auto conversion is really neat; but, going a rebuilt Lyc route is a more practical way for those of us who don't want to push into those unknowns as deeply. Any good A&P worth his salt can help you with an overhaul of a Lyc. Look at rebuilding an engine as another step in your learning curve. It's really neat to get close and personal with one's engine. You can't get the same experience with a factory new engine. Jim Sears in KY do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:04 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England hmmm... Do you mean Blue Book Value, or what it's worth to the guy that did it? If you intend to sell the plane, at the moment it obviously hurts the value relative to your $35K Lyc. (Of course, the $ cost of entry is a bit lower in exchange for the 'sweat equity'.) If you mean the value to the guy that did it, then like the bank card guys say, 'Priceless.' The real value is to the rest of us, who one day won't be obligated to pay $35K for an overgrown Volkswagen Bug engine. (obligatory ;-) here) Way to go, Todd. Charlie -7 wings do not archive Steve & Denise wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" > >do not archive > >I have great respect for someone that can take an engine like this and >turn it into a reliable solution for their RV. I take back my remarks on low >cost >solutions. > >What would be your estimate on the final value of the engine once everything >is installed? > >I'm envious. I'm good at riveting, painting and avionics but I do not >possess the skills >to start an engine project like this. > >Steve >RV7A >70015 >71629 > > > > >>> I was able to find my low time 13B engine core for $160CAD. How >>>does that make you feel?... no wait, I really don't give a damn. I don't >>>want to start a flame war here, but just want to make sure we don't climb >>>too high on our aviation pedestal as this attitude makes us targets. Now >>>that I own an airplane people seem to think I'm rich. Rich yes, but >>>certainly not in money. >>> >>>do not archive >>> >>>S. Todd Bartrim >>>Turbo 13B >>> >>> >>Jeez Todd, I bought my non logbooked, non new, non well documented rotary >>13B for $400US so my pedestal is obviously nearly 3X's as high as yours:-) >>Cool!! Sorry though, we obviously can't be in "da club". >> >>Oh man, another load of dribble, babble, dabble to lighten the load:-) >> >> >I'll > > >>probably get in trouble with the unofficial list >>police...................oh, well. >> >> >>Dana Overall >>Richmond, KY i39 >>RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >>Finish kit >>13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg >>do not archive >> ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:20 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Re: Saw this engine on Ebay --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Steve & Denise wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve & Denise" > >do not archive > >I have great respect for someone that can take an engine like this and >turn it into a reliable solution for their RV. I take back my remarks on low >cost solutions. > >What would be your estimate on the final value of the engine once everything >is installed? > This is hard to estimate since the cam and crank wear are unknown. Parts vary in cost with different dealers and how much you really need. >I'm envious. I'm good at riveting, painting and avionics but I do not >possess the skills to start an engine project like this. > Ah, sure you do!!! With the exception of two manuals (overhaul and parts) and a set of cylinder base wrenches, you probably have all the tools already. Splitting the case is the hardest part, but can be done with a large hammer and a block of hardwood. Three wrenches and sockets; 9/16, 1/2, and 7/16 do most of the disassembly and assembly. You send the case, crank, cam, connecting rods and cylinders out to be overhauled. New pistons, rings, bearings, some hardware and a gasket set are most likely needed. Special tools you might not have, but are not too expensive are a ring compressor (from the auto supply store) and a ring expander (from aviation tool places) and a good torque wrench. These engines are rock simple and the overhaul manual will tell you everything you need to know. You can get a very good overhaul for 5-6K if all the big pieces can be overhauled. Once you get all the parts back, you can put everything together in a week. Having an engine stand (I built mine) that stands the engine on the prop flange makes assembly really easy. Linn > >Steve >RV7A >70015 >71629 > > > > >>> I was able to find my low time 13B engine core for $160CAD. How >>>does that make you feel?... no wait, I really don't give a damn. I don't >>>want to start a flame war here, but just want to make sure we don't climb >>>too high on our aviation pedestal as this attitude makes us targets. Now >>>that I own an airplane people seem to think I'm rich. Rich yes, but >>>certainly not in money. >>> >>>do not archive >>> >>>S. Todd Bartrim >>>Turbo 13B >>> >>> >>Jeez Todd, I bought my non logbooked, non new, non well documented rotary >>13B for $400US so my pedestal is obviously nearly 3X's as high as yours:-) >>Cool!! Sorry though, we obviously can't be in "da club". >> >>Oh man, another load of dribble, babble, dabble to lighten the load:-) >> >> >I'll > > >>probably get in trouble with the unofficial list >>police...................oh, well. >> >> >>Dana Overall >>Richmond, KY i39 >>RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" >>Finish kit >>13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon. >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg >>http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg >>do not archive >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:35 PM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Navaid problem --> RV-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" I'm using a ControlVision to drive my Navaid. If I have the Navaid trim knob set so that I'm offset from the center line of the course, at an intersection the Navaid will sometimes turn the wrong way to intercept the new leg or seem ottherwise confused but if I hold the stick for a few moments it will work OK. Is this your case or will it never intercept the new leg? Albert Gardner RV-9A 872RV Yuma, AZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Calvert" Subject: RV-List: Navaid problem > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Calvert" > > I am asking this for a friend who is having problems with his Navaid. He has the Navaid coupled to a Garmin 296. When he is intercepting a course, he feels a bump in the stick when he reaches the new course line, but instead of turning on course, it stays on heading and doesn't make the turn. > > Has anyone had this problem and resolved it? > > Jerry Calvert > Edmond Ok > RV6 N296JC ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:07:33 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: RV-List: Wheel Fairings - Balancing Act --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Hello Listers, Today I decided to start on my main wheel fairings. (RV-6) I have raised the tail so the plane is in level flight. I snapped a chalk line on the floor right down the center of the fuselage using a plumb at the tail and one at the front center of the firewall. I have a couple of questions about this process. First I am wishing I had done this prior to installing the engine because of the weight. Without the wings installed the plane doesn't seem too terribly stable when the tail is lifted this high. I attached some weight at the tail and tied it down to my lifted plateform. Should be OK. On the other hand, in front the manual says to lift the plane so the main wheels are off the ground 0-1/16th of an inch so the the mains will swing into "no load" free position. I have a cherry picker connected to the engine hook only for stability as I raised the tail but can I effectively and safely pick up the front of the plane with this hook? Second, using my chalk line and trying to get a measurement of the center line on the wheel pants while they are resting unattached on a 1" block of wood sitting on the tire and the tail resting on a coffee can at 8 5/8" off the floor seems like a pretty shakey way to get these things within the 1/4" the plans call for. Does somebody have a suggestion for an easier way to accomplish this process? Trying to get this accomplished reasonably without having a wreck. Any ideas, comments, etc. would be appreciated. Tim Bryan RV-6 N616TB Getting Done This Year! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:09 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Navaid problem --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Jerry Calvert wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Calvert" > > I am asking this for a friend who is having problems with his Navaid. > He has the Navaid coupled to a Garmin 296. When he is intercepting a > course, he feels a bump in the stick when he reaches the new course > line, but instead of turning on course, it stays on heading and > doesn't make the turn. > > Has anyone had this problem and resolved it? My Navaid *usually* worked quite well at tracking a course if the nose of the plane was pointed nearly at the waypoint when the autopilot was engaged and the trims set properly, but it never was able to consistently intercept a course. From my 450 hrs of experience with the Navaid, I found reliable course intercepts was beyond the capabilities of my Navaid. There is a way to absolutely fix this problem, but it involves leaving the Navaid at home......... :-) Sam Buchanan (RV-6, AlTrak and EZ-Pilot autopilots) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:19 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Wheel Fairings - Balancing Act --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 8/22/2004 8:08:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rv6flyer@improvementteam.com writes: Today I decided to start on my main wheel fairings. (RV-6) I have raised the tail so the plane is in level flight. I snapped a chalk line on the floor right down the center of the fuselage using a plumb at the tail and one at the front center of the firewall. I have a couple of questions about this process. First I am wishing I had done this prior to installing the engine because of the weight. Without the wings installed the plane doesn't seem too terribly stable when the tail is lifted this high. I attached some weight at the tail and tied it down to my lifted platform. Should be OK. On the other hand, in front the manual says to lift the plane so the main wheels are off the ground 0-1/16th of an inch so the mains will swing into "no load" free position. I have a cherry picker connected to the engine hook only for stability as I raised the tail but can I effectively and safely pick up the front of the plane with this hook? =================================== I would encourage you to use cables or straps to some other portion of the engine mount rather than risk carrying to much mass with the engine hook. Some rope or nylon straps would be better and more stabilizing as you can connect to several more outboard members. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 710 hrs) ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:25 PM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper It's been awhile since I've read the report of the "other" structural failure, and I must admit that I don't recall all the details. I'll see if I can find it this week. I do recall that it was an RV-8 in California on its way to a fly in several years ago. I believe it was VFR into IMC by a non IFR pilot, and a witness saw it come spinning out of the clouds without part of a wing. Like N58RV, the wing failed around the inboard end of the aileron (I recall). I agree with Kevin's point of view that you can't arbitrarily install a heavier one piece skin and expect that will strengthen the wing under all conditions. Lighter planes are definitely better. My only point was that there "may" be some benefit of the heavier one piece skin, at list in the two instances where the wing failed mid span. Ultimately, the answer to the that question lies with a knowledgeable structural engineer or the aircraft designer. Skylor --- Jerry Springer wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > > Skylor Piper wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > > > > > > >--- Kevin Horton wrote: > > > > > > > >>Sure, the outboard wing would be a bit stronger, > but > >>the inboard wing > >>would be the same as before. The extra strength > in > >>the outboard wing > >>is irrelevant...snip... > >> > >> > > > > > > > >>Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) > >>Ottawa, Canada > >>http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ > >> > >> > > > >Are you sure about that? The two RV-8's that had > >in-flight structural failures (that I know about) > had > >the wings fail right at the inboard edge of the > aileron. > > > > > > > > > > > Skylor what were the deaails of the second in flight > failure? > > Jerry > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/chat > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > _______________________________ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:30 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: RV8 one piece wings skins --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Skylor Piper wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > >It's been awhile since I've read the report of the >"other" structural failure, and I must admit that I >don't recall all the details. I'll see if I can find >it this week. > > http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031009X01690&key=1 If this is the one you are referring to I do not believe wing skins would have made a difference, nor was it in anyway the fault of the aircraft. If you read the entire report the wings were still attached and both wing leading edges were crushed back. I really hate it when misinformation gets spread around about the airplanes we build and fly. If you have other information I would love to see the report. Jerry