Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:03 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (DAVID REEL)
2. 04:58 AM - Re: cold air (Rick Galati)
3. 06:06 AM - Wire Sizing Chart (Mark Taylor)
4. 06:19 AM - Re: cold air (Mark Taylor)
5. 06:19 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (james frierson)
6. 06:24 AM - Gear leg question & Items of interest (Kelly Patterson)
7. 06:29 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (SportAV8R@aol.com)
8. 07:48 AM - Re: Wire Sizing Chart (David Carter)
9. 08:37 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Kosta Lewis)
10. 09:04 AM - Flying Lessons from archives (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
11. 09:06 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (Jim Oke)
12. 09:17 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (Gert)
13. 09:31 AM - Re: >Re:how to feed the battery cable through the fir (Gert)
14. 09:32 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Gert)
15. 09:52 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Sam Buchanan)
16. 10:04 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Sam Buchanan)
17. 10:44 AM - Making Intersection Fairings (Emrath)
18. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: cold air (Jeff Point)
19. 01:14 PM - Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen)
20. 01:17 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter)
21. 01:19 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter)
22. 01:24 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter)
23. 01:24 PM - Twin Cities Fly-in/camp-in picnic (Alex Peterson)
24. 01:54 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (George P. Tyler)
25. 02:51 PM - Twin Cities Picnic/Fly-in/Camp-in (Alex Peterson)
26. 03:32 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen)
27. 03:32 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen)
28. 05:17 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Kevin Horton)
29. 07:00 PM - Re: (Keith Hedrick OD)
30. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: cold air (Keith Hedrick OD)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
Drawing OP11 and OP26 give Van's idea of adequate firewall penetration. Stainless
steel shields are considered optional. A grommet or snap bushing sealed over
with high temperature RTV appears to be the standard. Try an archive search
of the aeroelectric list for lots of ideas that are more sophisticated.
Dave Reel - RV8A
Message 2
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--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to produce
correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6 series. I believe
the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I installed the boots
with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one outside, one inside) that
capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage sides with screws and nutplates.
Overkill I know, but hey...its my airplane.
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" N307R "finishing"
I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the
stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and
for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one
with this problem.
thanks
Keith Hedrick
RV 6
3LF
Message 3
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Subject: | Wire Sizing Chart |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
Mike, try my website! http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/
On the Electrical page, right at the top, is an excel sheet that I use. I
based the calcs from the AeroElectric connection, so the "ampacity" should
be just about right!
Mark.
Time: 11:46:44 AM PST US
Subject: RV-List: wire gage, length, amp chart
From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)"
<mstewart@iss.net>
Can you believe after at least 30 minutes of hunting a good chart on
this, I cant find one on-line or in the archives.
I'm looking for one similar to the one that comes with the plans, but
hopefully a little more detailed, or at least bigger.
It lists amps, wire gage, & wire lengths to give you a rough idea on
the appropriate wire to use.
Also a bolt torque spec table with sizes for AN bolts would also be nice
so I can print it and post it in the shop
Would prefer a web site. But you can send me something direct and Ill
put it up for others if it is good.
Do not archive the ? but remove for a good response.
Thanks
Mike Stewart
Message 4
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1.16 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
Fenestration means windows! From the French word for window fenetre.
Anyways, back to the problem at hand, boots around the aileron control rods
where they enter the fuselage will help a bunch. See Sam Buchannan's site
for the plans.... http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/cold.html
Mark Taylor
RV-7 QB
http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: cold air
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>Oh great list,
>
>I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the
>stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and
>for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one
>with this problem.
>
>thanks
>
>Keith Hedrick
Fuselage penetration=FENESTRATION. LOVE it!! Gotta remember that one.
Even if it is only a typo. :)
Stick boots. That's the answer. DJ makes 'em, or can modify aftermarket
shifter boots from Pep Boys and the like. Also, boots around the aileron
pushrods where they FENESTRATE the fuselage sides will keep the air from
getting into the cabin at all. I think Sam B. shows an install on his
website.
Good luck and get 'er done before wintertime!
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
Message 5
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Subject: | how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "james frierson" <tn3639@hotmail.com>
Gert,
I used a product that is made by Moroso for race cars. So far so good. The
Jegs part number is
710-74145.
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1631&prmenbr=361
Scott
RV6A
N162RV Flying
>From: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: "RV-8@yahoogroups.com" <RV-8@yahoogroups.com>, rv-list
><rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall??
>Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:38:18 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
>
>Hi folks
>
>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment.
>How have you brought the wire from the battery to the starter contactor
>through the firewall??
>
>what kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention have you used.
>pro's/con's??
>
>thanks
>
>Gert
>--
>is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
>
>
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
Message 6
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Subject: | Gear leg question & Items of interest |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kelly Patterson" <kbob@cox.net>
Hi great list people,
Is there a prize for longest lurker? I have read for years but never posted
anything until now. I haven't bothered to post since most topics have been
covered very well and a good archive search will find what you need.
Websites like Dan Checkoway and Sam Buchanan are awesome and provide
infinite knowledge. But I have one building question that has not been
covered.
A little background. My name is Kelly Patterson (that's a male name so no
one is confused). I've got a 6A in my garage. Emp was purchased from a
previous builder, did the slow build wings after buying them on EBay, and a
QB fuse is now nearly complete.
I need to drill the landing gear to the spars. With the QB fuse the bottom
skin is already in place. Has anyone done this before? What is the easy
way - inverted or greasy side down? Any tricks to make life easy? Any
special tools besides the angle drill? BTW - the gear legs are drilled so
that's a good thing!
This list is a great source of information as well as entertainment! For
many years I was a Miata owner which has gigantic email list traffic, 100+
per day. Maybe 50% actually discussed cars. The point is: the listers all
make a community. We are also a community. So what if we talk like drunks
about insurance, eyesight or life's problems. It's the common interest that
counts.
Last - I have an air cleco tool (Avery #20109) that I no longer have a need
for. Used on one set of wings and a fuse. I will ship it to you for $60.
Sell it here when you are done. Also have a battery box for a 6. Between
the pedals type. If yours is shot or you want a QB part come and get this.
I'll ship it for $30.
Thanks and I truly hope to meet many, or all of you, in the near future.
Kelly Patterson
RV-6A slow wing & QB fuse
Message 7
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Subject: | how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted connections
per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra resistance in a
cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You would probably get away
with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor cranking performance, it's the
first thing to suspect.
Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection.
-Bill B
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Wire Sizing Chart |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Mark
Looks like you are using Bob's Chapter 8 "prior to 22 Apr 02". You might
want to take note of Bob's 28 Apr 2002 e-mail where he informs us of an
error in his Fig 8-4 that had gone undetected for many years - he said we
should label the "35 deg C rise" guideline as "10 deg C rise" and add a new
line for 35 deg C rise starting at 10 amps straight up from 22awg and
sloping parallel to the other 2 existing lines, which are to be re-labled 10
deg (was 35) and 3 deg (was 10). Attached Bob's e-mail in Cc direct to
mtaylo17@msn.com .
With this change, the max current for 22 awg goes up from 5 amps to 10 amps
for a 35 deg C rise, for example.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
Subject: RV-List: Wire Sizing Chart
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
>
>
> Mike, try my website! http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/
>
> On the Electrical page, right at the top, is an excel sheet that I use. I
> based the calcs from the AeroElectric connection, so the "ampacity" should
> be just about right!
>
> Mark.
>
Message 9
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Subject: | how to feed the battery cable through the firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment:
how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through
the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention
have you used?
Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called
or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car
racing supply shop. It is a brass, insulated fitting that is a
through-bolt MADE to supply electrons from a heavy cable on one side,
through a firewall to a cable on the other side, as in battery to
starter cables. Works great without any problems associated with trying
to put a cable of that size through the firewall. If you need me to, I
could go back to the race shop some day and ask them but it is probably
on an online catalog of race equipment somewhere. There is a lot of cool
stuff at race shops that you can find a use for in an airplane. After
all, both go pretty fast and race cars are not built like "normal" cars,
i.e are experimental cars.......
Michael
RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
Message 10
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Subject: | Flying Lessons from archives |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Howdy list-
Digging through some RV-list stuff I've archived over the years & ran across
a couple of items that should be required reading for anyone approaching first
flight. Listers on board in mid 2002 will remember this, but for newer
members, they refer to an accident that was widely discussed so let's please not
rehash, it's all in the archives. Go to:
http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html
and type in (or cut&paste) " kostalewis & fly it well "
Michael has not posted to the list in a while, but if he sees this, THANKS!
I am constantly getting reminded how valuable this service is- Thanks, Matt!
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark -6A 51PW 110 hours since 1/31/04 & do not archive
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
This is an excellent example of the need for engineering compromise in the
real world.
The through bolt method has the advantage of an excellent and simple
firewall seal but (potentially) creates a problem in the cable run. The
single cable with grommet/shield method has an excellent current carrying
capability but creates another set of problems in arranging a fire proof,
chafe proof, firewall opening with (potentially) problems in the event of an
engine fire. Differences too in cost, ease of installation and maintenance.
Also, what is the more likely problem to arise and what are the consequences
of each problem?
As usual in homebuilt aircraft, you get to pay your money, make your own
choice and live with it.
Jim Oke
Wpg, MB
(Two time RV offender - now working on a hangar)
----- Original Message -----
From: <SportAV8R@aol.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall??
> --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
> These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted
connections per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra
resistance in a cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You
would probably get away with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor
cranking performance, it's the first thing to suspect.
>
> Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection.
>
> -Bill B
>
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Hi Bill
No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run
the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to
re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit
breaker/distribution.
There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something
slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless
steel cover.
with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra
termination may not be desired.
On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of
your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you
use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as
No-Lox or so???
Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!!
Gert
SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
>
> These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted connections
per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra resistance in
a cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You would probably get
away with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor cranking performance, it's
the first thing to suspect.
>
> Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection.
>
> -Bill B
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: >Re:how to feed the battery cable through the fir |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Hi Bob
Building an 8, no cheeks (other than the ones in the cabin flying).
Gert
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>
> Gert;
> You didn't mention which Rv you are building.
> In our RV-4 I mounted the starter relay on the backside of the firewall and
> ran the cable through the left sidewall into the cowl cheek and on to the
> starter. I wanted to keep the relay in the cooler environment.
>
>
> Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> Charleston,Arkansas
> Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
Thanks Michael
been toying with that idea too, living on top of Pegasus Racing Supplies...
Thanks
Gert
Kosta Lewis wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>
>
>>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment:
>
> how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through
> the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention
> have you used?
>
> Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called
> or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car
> racing supply shop. It is a brass, insulated fitting that is a
> through-bolt MADE to supply electrons from a heavy cable on one side,
> through a firewall to a cable on the other side, as in battery to
> starter cables. Works great without any problems associated with trying
> to put a cable of that size through the firewall. If you need me to, I
> could go back to the race shop some day and ask them but it is probably
> on an online catalog of race equipment somewhere. There is a lot of cool
> stuff at race shops that you can find a use for in an airplane. After
> all, both go pretty fast and race cars are not built like "normal" cars,
> i.e are experimental cars.......
>
> Michael
> RV-4 N232 Suzie Q
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 15
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Gert wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
> Thanks Michael
>
> been toying with that idea too, living on top of Pegasus Racing Supplies...
>
> Thanks
>
> Gert
>
> Kosta Lewis wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
>>
>>
>>>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment:
>>
>>how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through
>>the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention
>>have you used?
>>
>>Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called
>>or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car
>>racing supply shop.
<snip>
During the course of my recent kit car build,
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/stalkerv6
I used some excellent hot rod supply sources that I wish I had known
about during the RV-6 project:
Jegs; http://www.jegs.com
Summit; http://www.jegs.com
Speedway; http://www.speedwaymotors.com
These outfits have a great supply of AN hoses and fittings, wiring
stuff, tools, etc, etc, etc....and offer prompt and reliable service.
Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 594 hrs)
http://thervjournal.com
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Sam Buchanan wrote:
> During the course of my recent kit car build,
>
> http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/stalkerv6
>
> I used some excellent hot rod supply sources that I wish I had known
> about during the RV-6 project:
>
> Jegs; http://www.jegs.com
>
> Summit; http://www.jegs.com
Correction:
Summit; http://www.summitracing.com
Sam Buchanan
Message 17
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|
Subject: | Making Intersection Fairings |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
I recently viewed someone's web site which had pictures of lay-ups being
done for the upper gear leg intersection fairings. Don't recall the ship
model and I've lost the site link. The technique was interesting and seemed
to involve a built in split. Does anyone recognize this as being on their
site, if so, please provide me with the site link once again. Thanks Marty
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
She also makes a nice set of stick boots in various colors. I have both
on my 6 and no cold air leaks.
Jeff Point
Rick Galati wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
>I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to produce
correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6 series. I believe
the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I installed the boots
with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one outside, one inside) that
capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage sides with screws and nutplates.
Overkill I know, but hey...its my airplane.
>
>
>
>
Message 19
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Subject: | Need help trimming out airplane |
vansairforce@yahoogroups.com
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying for
almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out because
I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight without some
control input. With the wings held level by the stick in straight and level
flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane
on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or right
rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab on the rudder.
Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas?
Thanks.
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
When a man does all he can
though it succeeds not well,
blame not him that did it."
-- George Washington
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Gert,
Are you familiar with the stainless steel "towel bar" or "grab bar" solution explained
by Bob Nuckolls?
- There is no danger of melted plastic or rubber grommets or melted aluminum
fittings - everything you want goes thru the stainless steel tube whose flange
is mounted to the stainless steel firewall with fireproof putty and the front
end where wires come out into engine compartment is covered and tightly packed
with firesleeve material to keep fire out.
I've "selected all" and pasted below (after your original) the entire html article
Bob has posted on his site. If it doesn't show up with picture and all the
web details, go to Inbox-Outlook Express's tool bar, click Format & then Rich
Text (HTML) and reload the e-mail.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gert" <gert@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall??
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
> Hi Bill
>
> No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run
> the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to
> re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit
> breaker/distribution.
>
> There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something
> slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless
> steel cover.
>
> with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra
> termination may not be desired.
>
> On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of
> your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you
> use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as
> No-Lox or so???
>
> Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!!
>
>
> Gert
> SportAV8R@aol.com wrote:
Bob's Shop Notes:
Getting the wires in while keeping the flames out . . .
The "firewall" on an airplane wasn't named with any sense of whimsy . . . 99.99%
of the time, all it does is keep a blast of cold air out of the cockpit. But
on rare occasions, it is expected to stand between a fuel fed fire and folks
in the cockpit who are doing their best to survive the experience.
Hundreds of thousands of single engine aircraft have been built in the past 100
years. Most were fabricated with some attention paid to the physics of fire protection.
Every firewall-sheet of stainless steel (or composite material selected
for it's fire resistance) is perfectly capable of doing its job . . . as
long as you don't cut holes in it. Unfortunately, it's necessary for things forward
of the firewall to be in communication with things aft of the firewall.
There are controls, fuel plumbing, instrumentation and power generation wiring
that must run between engine compartment and cockpit thus requiring a certain
number of HOLES in the firewall.
Penetrations of fuel and other fluid plumbing running through all metal bulkhead
fittings require little further consideration. For certified airplanes, the
FARs tell us that bulkhead feed through fittings of steel or copper-alloy may
be used with no concerns for compromising firewall integrity. There are a variety
of metal "eyeball" fittings available for easing the transition of throttle,
prop, mixture and cowl flap controls at odd angles. This leaves us with the
"soft" lines such as wires and perhaps small fluid lines for pressure instrumentation.
Click here for larger image A visit with camera in hand to a production
line for certified piston aircraft allowed me to record and share a fabrication
technique for soft penetration. This technique has a long history of laboratory
testing for effectiveness, production line convenience, and field maintainability.
In this case, all of the wiring comes through a single, fairly large
penetration fitting . . . but there's no reason why multiple, smaller fittings
wouldn't work too . . .
Here we see how a stainless weldment bolted to the firewall with steel hardware
provides the structural component of a transition for wires and other relatively
"soft" materials running between cockpit and engine compartment. Note
generous flange area outside the tube to flange interface that is sealed with
fire-stop when the flange is bolted into place.
Click here for larger image The fittings for this airplane are made from
0.050" stainless. Thickness and attaching geometry are a function of how much
support the fitting needs to provide for the bundle of transitioning wires and
tubes. The material shown here is pretty hefty stuff and may have been selected
as handier to weld than thinner material. Drawings for other firewall fittings
used in this same factory show materials as thin as 0.020" thick.
Builders can certainly experiment with thinner material and alternative joining
techniques. Periodic inspections will show whether or not there are issues
of mechanical robustness . . . not strong enough, they'll simply come apart.
Given that fires are VERY rare, the failure of an experimental fitting doesn't
represent a great threat as long as you do reasonably complete inspections
during normal P/M activities . . . like every oil change. The worst thing that
happens is that you have to build a more robust transition fitting and replace
the broken one.
Click here for larger image Looking up the business end of the finished
transition. What's not visible in this view is the packing placed around wires
so that the second hose clamp doesn't have to put a super-crush on the fire
sleeve . . . . more on this later.
Click here for larger image The flight-ready firewall penetration. A second
hose clamp brings the fire sleeve down for a snug fit on the wire bundle. A
filler wrap around a wire bundle much smaller than the i.d. of the fire sleeve
makes for a better seal with less crush under the second hose clamp . . .
Click here for larger image On another airplane, we find a similar technique
except that the stainless steel firewall fitting is straight, no 90-degree
bend. Otherwise, installation and functionality is same as shown above.
Click here for larger image This view illustrates an interesting packing
material used to build up the wire bundle size. A piece of fire sleeve was cut
down the side and made into a strip of wrapping filler. Note that all exposed
edges of the fire sleeve are "doped" with the recommended sealer to preclude
entry of moisture and to keep the edges from fraying . . .
Questions or comments about this site? Click here to contact Bob at AeroElectric
Connection
Message 21
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|
Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gert" <gert@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall??
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
> Hi Bill
>
> No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run
> the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to
> re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit
> breaker/distribution.
>
> There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something
> slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless
> steel cover.
>
> with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra
> termination may not be desired.
>
> On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of
> your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you
> use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as
> No-Lox or so???
>
> Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!!
>
>
> Gert
Message 22
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|
Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Gert,
Are you familiar with the stainless steel "towel bar" or "grab bar" solution explained
by Bob Nuckolls?
- There is no danger of melted plastic or rubber grommets or melted aluminum
fittings - everything you want goes thru the stainless steel tube whose flange
is mounted to the stainless steel firewall with fireproof putty and the front
end where wires come out into engine compartment is covered and tightly packed
with firesleeve material to keep fire out.
I've "selected all" and pasted below (after your original) the entire html article
Bob has posted on his site. I put youin the Cc line so you get all the html
stuff - it won't come thru on the "List". If it doesn't show up with picture
and all the web details, go to Inbox-Outlook Express's tool bar, click Format
& then Rich Text (HTML) and reload the e-mail.
David
do not archive - sorry I sent this twice (or 3 times?) to the "list".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gert" <gert@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall??
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gert <gert@execpc.com>
>
> Hi Bill
>
> No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run
> the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to
> re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit
> breaker/distribution.
>
> There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something
> slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless
> steel cover.
>
> with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra
> termination may not be desired.
>
> On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of
> your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you
> use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as
> No-Lox or so???
>
> Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!!>
> Gert
Bob's Shop Notes:
Getting the wires in while keeping the flames out . . .
The "firewall" on an airplane wasn't named with any sense of whimsy . . . 99.99%
of the time, all it does is keep a blast of cold air out of the cockpit. But
on rare occasions, it is expected to stand between a fuel fed fire and folks
in the cockpit who are doing their best to survive the experience.
Hundreds of thousands of single engine aircraft have been built in the past 100
years. Most were fabricated with some attention paid to the physics of fire protection.
Every firewall-sheet of stainless steel (or composite material selected
for it's fire resistance) is perfectly capable of doing its job . . . as
long as you don't cut holes in it. Unfortunately, it's necessary for things forward
of the firewall to be in communication with things aft of the firewall.
There are controls, fuel plumbing, instrumentation and power generation wiring
that must run between engine compartment and cockpit thus requiring a certain
number of HOLES in the firewall.
Penetrations of fuel and other fluid plumbing running through all metal bulkhead
fittings require little further consideration. For certified airplanes, the
FARs tell us that bulkhead feed through fittings of steel or copper-alloy may
be used with no concerns for compromising firewall integrity. There are a variety
of metal "eyeball" fittings available for easing the transition of throttle,
prop, mixture and cowl flap controls at odd angles. This leaves us with the
"soft" lines such as wires and perhaps small fluid lines for pressure instrumentation.
Click here for larger image A visit with camera in hand to a production
line for certified piston aircraft allowed me to record and share a fabrication
technique for soft penetration. This technique has a long history of laboratory
testing for effectiveness, production line convenience, and field maintainability.
In this case, all of the wiring comes through a single, fairly large
penetration fitting . . . but there's no reason why multiple, smaller fittings
wouldn't work too . . .
Here we see how a stainless weldment bolted to the firewall with steel hardware
provides the structural component of a transition for wires and other relatively
"soft" materials running between cockpit and engine compartment. Note
generous flange area outside the tube to flange interface that is sealed with
fire-stop when the flange is bolted into place.
Click here for larger image The fittings for this airplane are made from
0.050" stainless. Thickness and attaching geometry are a function of how much
support the fitting needs to provide for the bundle of transitioning wires and
tubes. The material shown here is pretty hefty stuff and may have been selected
as handier to weld than thinner material. Drawings for other firewall fittings
used in this same factory show materials as thin as 0.020" thick.
Builders can certainly experiment with thinner material and alternative joining
techniques. Periodic inspections will show whether or not there are issues
of mechanical robustness . . . not strong enough, they'll simply come apart.
Given that fires are VERY rare, the failure of an experimental fitting doesn't
represent a great threat as long as you do reasonably complete inspections
during normal P/M activities . . . like every oil change. The worst thing that
happens is that you have to build a more robust transition fitting and replace
the broken one.
Click here for larger image Looking up the business end of the finished
transition. What's not visible in this view is the packing placed around wires
so that the second hose clamp doesn't have to put a super-crush on the fire
sleeve . . . . more on this later.
Click here for larger image The flight-ready firewall penetration. A second
hose clamp brings the fire sleeve down for a snug fit on the wire bundle. A
filler wrap around a wire bundle much smaller than the i.d. of the fire sleeve
makes for a better seal with less crush under the second hose clamp . . .
Click here for larger image On another airplane, we find a similar technique
except that the stainless steel firewall fitting is straight, no 90-degree
bend. Otherwise, installation and functionality is same as shown above.
Click here for larger image This view illustrates an interesting packing
material used to build up the wire bundle size. A piece of fire sleeve was cut
down the side and made into a strip of wrapping filler. Note that all exposed
edges of the fire sleeve are "doped" with the recommended sealer to preclude
entry of moisture and to keep the edges from fraying . . .
Questions or comments about this site? Click here to contact Bob at AeroElectric
Connection
Message 23
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|
Subject: | Twin Cities Fly-in/camp-in picnic |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Listers:
One week until our Fall picnic, which will include camping for those
interested this year. Date is September 11, Saturday. For details see:
http://www.pressenter.com/~dougweil/mnwing/id18.htm
The location of this strip is approximately 40 miles NE of the
Minneapolis metro area, and it is on the Green Bay sectional as St.
Croix Valley. We will supply burgers/brats/refreshments. Bring a
potluck side, salad or dessert and a couple lawn chairs. Oh, and don't
forget to bring some tall flying tales also.
Hope to see you there!
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP
Message 24
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|
Subject: | Re: Need help trimming out airplane |
--> RV-List message posted by: "George P. Tyler" <gptyler@metrocast.net>
Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve
the problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vanartsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
<vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying
for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out
because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight
without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in
straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn.
To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected
to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a
trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
>
Message 25
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|
Subject: | Twin Cities Picnic/Fly-in/Camp-in |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Well, I gave you all the wrong website for the event, the website I gave
you earlier today is going to be shut down soon. Here is one that will
continue to work:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rvflyin/
Alex Peterson
Maple Grove, MN
RV6-A N66AP
Message 26
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|
Subject: | Re: Need help trimming out airplane |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
It was in there but came out so the stick boot could be installed. Maybe "he"
should put it back in.
"George P. Tyler" <gptyler@metrocast.net> wrote:--> RV-List message posted by:
"George P. Tyler"
Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve
the problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vanartsdalen"
Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen
>
> Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying
for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out
because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight
without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in
straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn.
To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected
to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a
trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
When a man does all he can
though it succeeds not well,
blame not him that did it."
-- George Washington
Message 27
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|
Subject: | Re: Need help trimming out airplane |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
It was in there but came out so the stick boot could be installed. Maybe "he"
should put it back in.
"George P. Tyler" <gptyler@metrocast.net> wrote:--> RV-List message posted by:
"George P. Tyler"
Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve
the problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vanartsdalen"
Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen
>
> Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying
for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out
because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight
without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in
straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn.
To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected
to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a
trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
>
> When a man does all he can
> though it succeeds not well,
> blame not him that did it."
> -- George Washington
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!!
When a man does all he can
though it succeeds not well,
blame not him that did it."
-- George Washington
Message 28
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|
Subject: | Re: Need help trimming out airplane |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
>Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been
>flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling
>his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to
>straight and level flight without some control input. With the
>wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane
>wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a
>straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or
>right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab
>on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas?
>
I've never had to rig an RV yet, so the following advice is worth
what you paid for it.
If it was my plane, the first thing I would do is get the rudder tab
sorted out. You want the rudder tab rigged so that at your normal
cruise condition, with aileron input to hold the wings absolutely
level, the heading doesn't change with your feet off the rudder. If
your ball is perfectly installed (i.e. the instrument isn't tilted to
one side a bit), then the ball will be centred.
Next, worry about the aileron trim. Take a very close look at the
flap angle to be sure they are the same. Look at the ailerons - are
the aileron hinge brackets drilled so the ailerons are positioned
exactly the same vertically? If not, this would cause an out of trim
condition. Order new brackets are redrill as required. Once you are
sure the ailerons are positioned the same vertically, you can think
about the aileron trailing edge radii. Look at the heavy wing - is
the aileron trailing edge too sharp? If so, take a block of wood and
hold it against the trailing edge and tap it a bit to enlarge the
radius. If the heavy aileron looks OK, then you'll need to gently
squeeze the trailing edge of the aileron on the light wing. A little
bit goes a long way, so be careful here.
Van has published some info on correcting wing heaviness in the
Construction FAQs that has more items to look at:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_Heavy.pdf
--
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
Message 29
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD" <khedrick@frontiernet.net>
That is a big help. thanks. thos e look good. It will be good to be
warm in the cold.
Keith
==============
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" <mtaylo17@msn.com>
>
> Fenestration means windows! From the French word for window fenetre.
>
> Anyways, back to the problem at hand, boots around the aileron control
rods
> where they enter the fuselage will help a bunch. See Sam Buchannan's site
> for the plans.... http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/cold.html
>
> Mark Taylor
> RV-7 QB
> http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/
>
>
> Time: 09:06:06 PM PST US
> From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: RV-List: cold air
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
> >Oh great list,
> >
> >I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the
> >stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration
and
> >for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only
one
> >with this problem.
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >Keith Hedrick
>
>
> Fuselage penetration=FENESTRATION. LOVE it!! Gotta remember that one.
> Even if it is only a typo. :)
>
> Stick boots. That's the answer. DJ makes 'em, or can modify aftermarket
> shifter boots from Pep Boys and the like. Also, boots around the aileron
> pushrods where they FENESTRATE the fuselage sides will keep the air from
> getting into the cabin at all. I think Sam B. shows an install on his
> website.
>
> Good luck and get 'er done before wintertime!
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
>
>
Message 30
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD" <khedrick@frontiernet.net>
i have an email into to Abby. thanks again.
kt
===========
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: cold air
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
> I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to
produce correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6
series. I believe the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I
installed the boots with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one
outside, one inside) that capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage
sides with screws and nutplates. Overkill I know, but hey...its my
airplane.
>
> Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" N307R "finishing"
>
>
> I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the
> stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration
and
> for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only
one
> with this problem.
>
> thanks
>
> Keith Hedrick
> RV 6
> 3LF
>
>
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