---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 09/04/04: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:03 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (DAVID REEL) 2. 04:58 AM - Re: cold air (Rick Galati) 3. 06:06 AM - Wire Sizing Chart (Mark Taylor) 4. 06:19 AM - Re: cold air (Mark Taylor) 5. 06:19 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (james frierson) 6. 06:24 AM - Gear leg question & Items of interest (Kelly Patterson) 7. 06:29 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (SportAV8R@aol.com) 8. 07:48 AM - Re: Wire Sizing Chart (David Carter) 9. 08:37 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Kosta Lewis) 10. 09:04 AM - Flying Lessons from archives (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 11. 09:06 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (Jim Oke) 12. 09:17 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (Gert) 13. 09:31 AM - Re: >Re:how to feed the battery cable through the fir (Gert) 14. 09:32 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Gert) 15. 09:52 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Sam Buchanan) 16. 10:04 AM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall (Sam Buchanan) 17. 10:44 AM - Making Intersection Fairings (Emrath) 18. 10:55 AM - Re: Re: cold air (Jeff Point) 19. 01:14 PM - Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen) 20. 01:17 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter) 21. 01:19 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter) 22. 01:24 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (David Carter) 23. 01:24 PM - Twin Cities Fly-in/camp-in picnic (Alex Peterson) 24. 01:54 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (George P. Tyler) 25. 02:51 PM - Twin Cities Picnic/Fly-in/Camp-in (Alex Peterson) 26. 03:32 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen) 27. 03:32 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Scott Vanartsdalen) 28. 05:17 PM - Re: Need help trimming out airplane (Kevin Horton) 29. 07:00 PM - Re: (Keith Hedrick OD) 30. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: cold air (Keith Hedrick OD) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:03:28 AM PST US From: "DAVID REEL" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" Drawing OP11 and OP26 give Van's idea of adequate firewall penetration. Stainless steel shields are considered optional. A grommet or snap bushing sealed over with high temperature RTV appears to be the standard. Try an archive search of the aeroelectric list for lots of ideas that are more sophisticated. Dave Reel - RV8A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:31 AM PST US From: Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: Re: cold air --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to produce correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6 series. I believe the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I installed the boots with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one outside, one inside) that capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage sides with screws and nutplates. Overkill I know, but hey...its my airplane. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" N307R "finishing" I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one with this problem. thanks Keith Hedrick RV 6 3LF ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:27 AM PST US From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: RV-List: Wire Sizing Chart --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" Mike, try my website! http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/ On the Electrical page, right at the top, is an excel sheet that I use. I based the calcs from the AeroElectric connection, so the "ampacity" should be just about right! Mark. Time: 11:46:44 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: wire gage, length, amp chart From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Can you believe after at least 30 minutes of hunting a good chart on this, I cant find one on-line or in the archives. I'm looking for one similar to the one that comes with the plans, but hopefully a little more detailed, or at least bigger. It lists amps, wire gage, & wire lengths to give you a rough idea on the appropriate wire to use. Also a bolt torque spec table with sizes for AN bolts would also be nice so I can print it and post it in the shop Would prefer a web site. But you can send me something direct and Ill put it up for others if it is good. Do not archive the ? but remove for a good response. Thanks Mike Stewart ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:14 AM PST US From: "Mark Taylor" 1.16 MISSING_SUBJECT Missing Subject: header --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" Fenestration means windows! From the French word for window fenetre. Anyways, back to the problem at hand, boots around the aileron control rods where they enter the fuselage will help a bunch. See Sam Buchannan's site for the plans.... http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/cold.html Mark Taylor RV-7 QB http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/ Time: 09:06:06 PM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: RE: RV-List: cold air --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" >Oh great list, > >I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the >stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and >for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one >with this problem. > >thanks > >Keith Hedrick Fuselage penetration=FENESTRATION. LOVE it!! Gotta remember that one. Even if it is only a typo. :) Stick boots. That's the answer. DJ makes 'em, or can modify aftermarket shifter boots from Pep Boys and the like. Also, boots around the aileron pushrods where they FENESTRATE the fuselage sides will keep the air from getting into the cabin at all. I think Sam B. shows an install on his website. Good luck and get 'er done before wintertime! Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:38 AM PST US From: "james frierson" Subject: RE: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: "james frierson" Gert, I used a product that is made by Moroso for race cars. So far so good. The Jegs part number is 710-74145. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1631&prmenbr=361 Scott RV6A N162RV Flying >From: Gert >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: "RV-8@yahoogroups.com" , rv-list > >Subject: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? >Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:38:18 -0500 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > >Hi folks > >For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment. >How have you brought the wire from the battery to the starter contactor >through the firewall?? > >what kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention have you used. >pro's/con's?? > >thanks > >Gert >-- >is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 > > Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:02 AM PST US From: "Kelly Patterson" Subject: RV-List: Gear leg question & Items of interest --> RV-List message posted by: "Kelly Patterson" Hi great list people, Is there a prize for longest lurker? I have read for years but never posted anything until now. I haven't bothered to post since most topics have been covered very well and a good archive search will find what you need. Websites like Dan Checkoway and Sam Buchanan are awesome and provide infinite knowledge. But I have one building question that has not been covered. A little background. My name is Kelly Patterson (that's a male name so no one is confused). I've got a 6A in my garage. Emp was purchased from a previous builder, did the slow build wings after buying them on EBay, and a QB fuse is now nearly complete. I need to drill the landing gear to the spars. With the QB fuse the bottom skin is already in place. Has anyone done this before? What is the easy way - inverted or greasy side down? Any tricks to make life easy? Any special tools besides the angle drill? BTW - the gear legs are drilled so that's a good thing! This list is a great source of information as well as entertainment! For many years I was a Miata owner which has gigantic email list traffic, 100+ per day. Maybe 50% actually discussed cars. The point is: the listers all make a community. We are also a community. So what if we talk like drunks about insurance, eyesight or life's problems. It's the common interest that counts. Last - I have an air cleco tool (Avery #20109) that I no longer have a need for. Used on one set of wings and a fuse. I will ship it to you for $60. Sell it here when you are done. Also have a battery box for a 6. Between the pedals type. If yours is shot or you want a QB part come and get this. I'll ship it for $30. Thanks and I truly hope to meet many, or all of you, in the near future. Kelly Patterson RV-6A slow wing & QB fuse ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:05 AM PST US From: SportAV8R@aol.com Subject: RE: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted connections per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra resistance in a cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You would probably get away with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor cranking performance, it's the first thing to suspect. Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection. -Bill B ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:57 AM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wire Sizing Chart --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Mark Looks like you are using Bob's Chapter 8 "prior to 22 Apr 02". You might want to take note of Bob's 28 Apr 2002 e-mail where he informs us of an error in his Fig 8-4 that had gone undetected for many years - he said we should label the "35 deg C rise" guideline as "10 deg C rise" and add a new line for 35 deg C rise starting at 10 amps straight up from 22awg and sloping parallel to the other 2 existing lines, which are to be re-labled 10 deg (was 35) and 3 deg (was 10). Attached Bob's e-mail in Cc direct to mtaylo17@msn.com . With this change, the max current for 22 awg goes up from 5 amps to 10 amps for a 35 deg C rise, for example. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Taylor" Subject: RV-List: Wire Sizing Chart > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" > > > Mike, try my website! http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/ > > On the Electrical page, right at the top, is an excel sheet that I use. I > based the calcs from the AeroElectric connection, so the "ampacity" should > be just about right! > > Mark. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:37:05 AM PST US From: "Kosta Lewis" Subject: RE: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall --> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" >For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment: how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention have you used? Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car racing supply shop. It is a brass, insulated fitting that is a through-bolt MADE to supply electrons from a heavy cable on one side, through a firewall to a cable on the other side, as in battery to starter cables. Works great without any problems associated with trying to put a cable of that size through the firewall. If you need me to, I could go back to the race shop some day and ask them but it is probably on an online catalog of race equipment somewhere. There is a lot of cool stuff at race shops that you can find a use for in an airplane. After all, both go pretty fast and race cars are not built like "normal" cars, i.e are experimental cars....... Michael RV-4 N232 Suzie Q ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:25 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Flying Lessons from archives --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy list- Digging through some RV-list stuff I've archived over the years & ran across a couple of items that should be required reading for anyone approaching first flight. Listers on board in mid 2002 will remember this, but for newer members, they refer to an accident that was widely discussed so let's please not rehash, it's all in the archives. Go to: http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html and type in (or cut&paste) " kostalewis & fly it well " Michael has not posted to the list in a while, but if he sees this, THANKS! I am constantly getting reminded how valuable this service is- Thanks, Matt! From The PossumWorks in TN Mark -6A 51PW 110 hours since 1/31/04 & do not archive ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:50 AM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke This is an excellent example of the need for engineering compromise in the real world. The through bolt method has the advantage of an excellent and simple firewall seal but (potentially) creates a problem in the cable run. The single cable with grommet/shield method has an excellent current carrying capability but creates another set of problems in arranging a fire proof, chafe proof, firewall opening with (potentially) problems in the event of an engine fire. Differences too in cost, ease of installation and maintenance. Also, what is the more likely problem to arise and what are the consequences of each problem? As usual in homebuilt aircraft, you get to pay your money, make your own choice and live with it. Jim Oke Wpg, MB (Two time RV offender - now working on a hangar) ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RE: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? > --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com > > These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted connections per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra resistance in a cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You would probably get away with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor cranking performance, it's the first thing to suspect. > > Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection. > > -Bill B > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:14 AM PST US From: Gert Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Hi Bill No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit breaker/distribution. There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless steel cover. with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra termination may not be desired. On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as No-Lox or so??? Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!! Gert SportAV8R@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com > > These firewall insulated through-bolt things require two more bolted connections per cable run, which are a highly significant source of exra resistance in a cranking current path carrying hundreds of amperes. You would probably get away with it, but if your set-op suffers from poor cranking performance, it's the first thing to suspect. > > Not a flame, just orthodox doctrine from the 'Connection. > > -Bill B > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:31:31 AM PST US From: Gert Subject: Re: RV-List: >Re:how to feed the battery cable through the fir --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Hi Bob Building an 8, no cheeks (other than the ones in the cabin flying). Gert Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com > > Gert; > You didn't mention which Rv you are building. > In our RV-4 I mounted the starter relay on the backside of the firewall and > ran the cable through the left sidewall into the cowl cheek and on to the > starter. I wanted to keep the relay in the cooler environment. > > > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor > Charleston,Arkansas > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:10 AM PST US From: Gert Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall --> RV-List message posted by: Gert Thanks Michael been toying with that idea too, living on top of Pegasus Racing Supplies... Thanks Gert Kosta Lewis wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" > > >>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment: > > how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through > the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention > have you used? > > Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called > or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car > racing supply shop. It is a brass, insulated fitting that is a > through-bolt MADE to supply electrons from a heavy cable on one side, > through a firewall to a cable on the other side, as in battery to > starter cables. Works great without any problems associated with trying > to put a cable of that size through the firewall. If you need me to, I > could go back to the race shop some day and ask them but it is probably > on an online catalog of race equipment somewhere. There is a lot of cool > stuff at race shops that you can find a use for in an airplane. After > all, both go pretty fast and race cars are not built like "normal" cars, > i.e are experimental cars....... > > Michael > RV-4 N232 Suzie Q > > > > > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:52:06 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Gert wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > Thanks Michael > > been toying with that idea too, living on top of Pegasus Racing Supplies... > > Thanks > > Gert > > Kosta Lewis wrote: > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" >> >> >>>For those of you with the battery not in the engine compartment: >> >>how have you brought the cable from the battery to the starter through >>the firewall? What kind of penetration/insulation/chafing prevention >>have you used? >> >>Well, it's been long enough ago that I can't remember what it is called >>or the part number, but I found a firewall fitting at my local car >>racing supply shop. During the course of my recent kit car build, http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/stalkerv6 I used some excellent hot rod supply sources that I wish I had known about during the RV-6 project: Jegs; http://www.jegs.com Summit; http://www.jegs.com Speedway; http://www.speedwaymotors.com These outfits have a great supply of AN hoses and fittings, wiring stuff, tools, etc, etc, etc....and offer prompt and reliable service. Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 594 hrs) http://thervjournal.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:16 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan wrote: > During the course of my recent kit car build, > > http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/stalkerv6 > > I used some excellent hot rod supply sources that I wish I had known > about during the RV-6 project: > > Jegs; http://www.jegs.com > > Summit; http://www.jegs.com Correction: Summit; http://www.summitracing.com Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:44:24 AM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: RV-List: Making Intersection Fairings --> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" I recently viewed someone's web site which had pictures of lay-ups being done for the upper gear leg intersection fairings. Don't recall the ship model and I've lost the site link. The technique was interesting and seemed to involve a built in split. Does anyone recognize this as being on their site, if so, please provide me with the site link once again. Thanks Marty ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:50 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: cold air --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point She also makes a nice set of stick boots in various colors. I have both on my 6 and no cold air leaks. Jeff Point Rick Galati wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati > >I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to produce correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6 series. I believe the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I installed the boots with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one outside, one inside) that capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage sides with screws and nutplates. Overkill I know, but hey...its my airplane. > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:15 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane vansairforce@yahoogroups.com --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas? Thanks. -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:28 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Gert, Are you familiar with the stainless steel "towel bar" or "grab bar" solution explained by Bob Nuckolls? - There is no danger of melted plastic or rubber grommets or melted aluminum fittings - everything you want goes thru the stainless steel tube whose flange is mounted to the stainless steel firewall with fireproof putty and the front end where wires come out into engine compartment is covered and tightly packed with firesleeve material to keep fire out. I've "selected all" and pasted below (after your original) the entire html article Bob has posted on his site. If it doesn't show up with picture and all the web details, go to Inbox-Outlook Express's tool bar, click Format & then Rich Text (HTML) and reload the e-mail. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? > --> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > Hi Bill > > No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run > the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to > re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit > breaker/distribution. > > There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something > slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless > steel cover. > > with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra > termination may not be desired. > > On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of > your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you > use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as > No-Lox or so??? > > Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!! > > > Gert > SportAV8R@aol.com wrote: Bob's Shop Notes: Getting the wires in while keeping the flames out . . . The "firewall" on an airplane wasn't named with any sense of whimsy . . . 99.99% of the time, all it does is keep a blast of cold air out of the cockpit. But on rare occasions, it is expected to stand between a fuel fed fire and folks in the cockpit who are doing their best to survive the experience. Hundreds of thousands of single engine aircraft have been built in the past 100 years. Most were fabricated with some attention paid to the physics of fire protection. Every firewall-sheet of stainless steel (or composite material selected for it's fire resistance) is perfectly capable of doing its job . . . as long as you don't cut holes in it. Unfortunately, it's necessary for things forward of the firewall to be in communication with things aft of the firewall. There are controls, fuel plumbing, instrumentation and power generation wiring that must run between engine compartment and cockpit thus requiring a certain number of HOLES in the firewall. Penetrations of fuel and other fluid plumbing running through all metal bulkhead fittings require little further consideration. For certified airplanes, the FARs tell us that bulkhead feed through fittings of steel or copper-alloy may be used with no concerns for compromising firewall integrity. There are a variety of metal "eyeball" fittings available for easing the transition of throttle, prop, mixture and cowl flap controls at odd angles. This leaves us with the "soft" lines such as wires and perhaps small fluid lines for pressure instrumentation. Click here for larger image A visit with camera in hand to a production line for certified piston aircraft allowed me to record and share a fabrication technique for soft penetration. This technique has a long history of laboratory testing for effectiveness, production line convenience, and field maintainability. In this case, all of the wiring comes through a single, fairly large penetration fitting . . . but there's no reason why multiple, smaller fittings wouldn't work too . . . Here we see how a stainless weldment bolted to the firewall with steel hardware provides the structural component of a transition for wires and other relatively "soft" materials running between cockpit and engine compartment. Note generous flange area outside the tube to flange interface that is sealed with fire-stop when the flange is bolted into place. Click here for larger image The fittings for this airplane are made from 0.050" stainless. Thickness and attaching geometry are a function of how much support the fitting needs to provide for the bundle of transitioning wires and tubes. The material shown here is pretty hefty stuff and may have been selected as handier to weld than thinner material. Drawings for other firewall fittings used in this same factory show materials as thin as 0.020" thick. Builders can certainly experiment with thinner material and alternative joining techniques. Periodic inspections will show whether or not there are issues of mechanical robustness . . . not strong enough, they'll simply come apart. Given that fires are VERY rare, the failure of an experimental fitting doesn't represent a great threat as long as you do reasonably complete inspections during normal P/M activities . . . like every oil change. The worst thing that happens is that you have to build a more robust transition fitting and replace the broken one. Click here for larger image Looking up the business end of the finished transition. What's not visible in this view is the packing placed around wires so that the second hose clamp doesn't have to put a super-crush on the fire sleeve . . . . more on this later. Click here for larger image The flight-ready firewall penetration. A second hose clamp brings the fire sleeve down for a snug fit on the wire bundle. A filler wrap around a wire bundle much smaller than the i.d. of the fire sleeve makes for a better seal with less crush under the second hose clamp . . . Click here for larger image On another airplane, we find a similar technique except that the stainless steel firewall fitting is straight, no 90-degree bend. Otherwise, installation and functionality is same as shown above. Click here for larger image This view illustrates an interesting packing material used to build up the wire bundle size. A piece of fire sleeve was cut down the side and made into a strip of wrapping filler. Note that all exposed edges of the fire sleeve are "doped" with the recommended sealer to preclude entry of moisture and to keep the edges from fraying . . . Questions or comments about this site? Click here to contact Bob at AeroElectric Connection ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:05 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? > --> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > Hi Bill > > No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run > the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to > re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit > breaker/distribution. > > There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something > slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless > steel cover. > > with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra > termination may not be desired. > > On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of > your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you > use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as > No-Lox or so??? > > Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!! > > > Gert ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:32 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Gert, Are you familiar with the stainless steel "towel bar" or "grab bar" solution explained by Bob Nuckolls? - There is no danger of melted plastic or rubber grommets or melted aluminum fittings - everything you want goes thru the stainless steel tube whose flange is mounted to the stainless steel firewall with fireproof putty and the front end where wires come out into engine compartment is covered and tightly packed with firesleeve material to keep fire out. I've "selected all" and pasted below (after your original) the entire html article Bob has posted on his site. I put youin the Cc line so you get all the html stuff - it won't come thru on the "List". If it doesn't show up with picture and all the web details, go to Inbox-Outlook Express's tool bar, click Format & then Rich Text (HTML) and reload the e-mail. David do not archive - sorry I sent this twice (or 3 times?) to the "list". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gert" Subject: Re: RV-List: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? > --> RV-List message posted by: Gert > > Hi Bill > > No flame taken, I am pondering both sides of the equation. But if I run > the #2 through the firewall to the starter relay, I will have to > re-penetrate with a #6, or whatever size back to the fuseblock/circuit > breaker/distribution. > > There are trade-off's to each solution. Would like, however, something > slightly more substantial than just a rubber grommet in a stainless > steel cover. > > with my RV8 already 'suffering' from an extended cable run, extra > termination may not be desired. > > On a similar note, for those of you having the battery in the back of > your RV8, what is a suitable place to run the ground wire to and did you > use a protective agent to prevent oxidation of the aluminum such as > No-Lox or so??? > > Thanks to all for great sugestions so far !!!> > Gert Bob's Shop Notes: Getting the wires in while keeping the flames out . . . The "firewall" on an airplane wasn't named with any sense of whimsy . . . 99.99% of the time, all it does is keep a blast of cold air out of the cockpit. But on rare occasions, it is expected to stand between a fuel fed fire and folks in the cockpit who are doing their best to survive the experience. Hundreds of thousands of single engine aircraft have been built in the past 100 years. Most were fabricated with some attention paid to the physics of fire protection. Every firewall-sheet of stainless steel (or composite material selected for it's fire resistance) is perfectly capable of doing its job . . . as long as you don't cut holes in it. Unfortunately, it's necessary for things forward of the firewall to be in communication with things aft of the firewall. There are controls, fuel plumbing, instrumentation and power generation wiring that must run between engine compartment and cockpit thus requiring a certain number of HOLES in the firewall. Penetrations of fuel and other fluid plumbing running through all metal bulkhead fittings require little further consideration. For certified airplanes, the FARs tell us that bulkhead feed through fittings of steel or copper-alloy may be used with no concerns for compromising firewall integrity. There are a variety of metal "eyeball" fittings available for easing the transition of throttle, prop, mixture and cowl flap controls at odd angles. This leaves us with the "soft" lines such as wires and perhaps small fluid lines for pressure instrumentation. Click here for larger image A visit with camera in hand to a production line for certified piston aircraft allowed me to record and share a fabrication technique for soft penetration. This technique has a long history of laboratory testing for effectiveness, production line convenience, and field maintainability. In this case, all of the wiring comes through a single, fairly large penetration fitting . . . but there's no reason why multiple, smaller fittings wouldn't work too . . . Here we see how a stainless weldment bolted to the firewall with steel hardware provides the structural component of a transition for wires and other relatively "soft" materials running between cockpit and engine compartment. Note generous flange area outside the tube to flange interface that is sealed with fire-stop when the flange is bolted into place. Click here for larger image The fittings for this airplane are made from 0.050" stainless. Thickness and attaching geometry are a function of how much support the fitting needs to provide for the bundle of transitioning wires and tubes. The material shown here is pretty hefty stuff and may have been selected as handier to weld than thinner material. Drawings for other firewall fittings used in this same factory show materials as thin as 0.020" thick. Builders can certainly experiment with thinner material and alternative joining techniques. Periodic inspections will show whether or not there are issues of mechanical robustness . . . not strong enough, they'll simply come apart. Given that fires are VERY rare, the failure of an experimental fitting doesn't represent a great threat as long as you do reasonably complete inspections during normal P/M activities . . . like every oil change. The worst thing that happens is that you have to build a more robust transition fitting and replace the broken one. Click here for larger image Looking up the business end of the finished transition. What's not visible in this view is the packing placed around wires so that the second hose clamp doesn't have to put a super-crush on the fire sleeve . . . . more on this later. Click here for larger image The flight-ready firewall penetration. A second hose clamp brings the fire sleeve down for a snug fit on the wire bundle. A filler wrap around a wire bundle much smaller than the i.d. of the fire sleeve makes for a better seal with less crush under the second hose clamp . . . Click here for larger image On another airplane, we find a similar technique except that the stainless steel firewall fitting is straight, no 90-degree bend. Otherwise, installation and functionality is same as shown above. Click here for larger image This view illustrates an interesting packing material used to build up the wire bundle size. A piece of fire sleeve was cut down the side and made into a strip of wrapping filler. Note that all exposed edges of the fire sleeve are "doped" with the recommended sealer to preclude entry of moisture and to keep the edges from fraying . . . Questions or comments about this site? Click here to contact Bob at AeroElectric Connection ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:32 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: Twin Cities Fly-in/camp-in picnic --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Listers: One week until our Fall picnic, which will include camping for those interested this year. Date is September 11, Saturday. For details see: http://www.pressenter.com/~dougweil/mnwing/id18.htm The location of this strip is approximately 40 miles NE of the Minneapolis metro area, and it is on the Green Bay sectional as St. Croix Valley. We will supply burgers/brats/refreshments. Bring a potluck side, salad or dessert and a couple lawn chairs. Oh, and don't forget to bring some tall flying tales also. Hope to see you there! Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:54:05 PM PST US From: "George P. Tyler" Subject: Re: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane --> RV-List message posted by: "George P. Tyler" Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve the problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Vanartsdalen" Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen > > Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas? > > Thanks. > > > -- > Scott VanArtsdalen > RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! > > When a man does all he can > though it succeeds not well, > blame not him that did it." > -- George Washington > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:27 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: Twin Cities Picnic/Fly-in/Camp-in --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Well, I gave you all the wrong website for the event, the website I gave you earlier today is going to be shut down soon. Here is one that will continue to work: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rvflyin/ Alex Peterson Maple Grove, MN RV6-A N66AP ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:01 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen It was in there but came out so the stick boot could be installed. Maybe "he" should put it back in. "George P. Tyler" wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "George P. Tyler" Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve the problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Vanartsdalen" Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen > > Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas? > > Thanks. > > > -- > Scott VanArtsdalen > RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! > > When a man does all he can > though it succeeds not well, > blame not him that did it." > -- George Washington > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:01 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen It was in there but came out so the stick boot could be installed. Maybe "he" should put it back in. "George P. Tyler" wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "George P. Tyler" Does "his 4", have aileron trim? Vans manual system is simple and may solve the problem. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Vanartsdalen" Subject: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen > > Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to straight and level flight without some control input. With the wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas? > > Thanks. > > > -- > Scott VanArtsdalen > RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! > > When a man does all he can > though it succeeds not well, > blame not him that did it." > -- George Washington > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:17:59 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Need help trimming out airplane --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen > >Okay, let's say I have this "friend" who has an RV-4 that he's been >flying for almost two years now. Let's say this "friend" is pulling >his hair out because I - uh, *he* cannot trim his plane out to >straight and level flight without some control input. With the >wings held level by the stick in straight and level flight the plane >wants to go into a skidding left turn. To keep the plane on a >straight course the stick either has to be deflected to the right or >right rudder/left stick must be held. There is already a trim tab >on the rudder. Should I just keep enlarging it? Any other ideas? > I've never had to rig an RV yet, so the following advice is worth what you paid for it. If it was my plane, the first thing I would do is get the rudder tab sorted out. You want the rudder tab rigged so that at your normal cruise condition, with aileron input to hold the wings absolutely level, the heading doesn't change with your feet off the rudder. If your ball is perfectly installed (i.e. the instrument isn't tilted to one side a bit), then the ball will be centred. Next, worry about the aileron trim. Take a very close look at the flap angle to be sure they are the same. Look at the ailerons - are the aileron hinge brackets drilled so the ailerons are positioned exactly the same vertically? If not, this would cause an out of trim condition. Order new brackets are redrill as required. Once you are sure the ailerons are positioned the same vertically, you can think about the aileron trailing edge radii. Look at the heavy wing - is the aileron trailing edge too sharp? If so, take a block of wood and hold it against the trailing edge and tap it a bit to enlarge the radius. If the heavy aileron looks OK, then you'll need to gently squeeze the trailing edge of the aileron on the light wing. A little bit goes a long way, so be careful here. Van has published some info on correcting wing heaviness in the Construction FAQs that has more items to look at: http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Wing_Heavy.pdf -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:54 PM PST US From: "Keith Hedrick OD" Subject: RV-List: Re: --> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD" That is a big help. thanks. thos e look good. It will be good to be warm in the cold. Keith ============== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Taylor" > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Taylor" > > Fenestration means windows! From the French word for window fenetre. > > Anyways, back to the problem at hand, boots around the aileron control rods > where they enter the fuselage will help a bunch. See Sam Buchannan's site > for the plans.... http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/cold.html > > Mark Taylor > RV-7 QB > http://home.comcast.net/~mtaylo17/RV7/ > > > Time: 09:06:06 PM PST US > From: "Brian Denk" > Subject: RE: RV-List: cold air > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" > > >Oh great list, > > > >I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the > >stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and > >for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one > >with this problem. > > > >thanks > > > >Keith Hedrick > > > Fuselage penetration=FENESTRATION. LOVE it!! Gotta remember that one. > Even if it is only a typo. :) > > Stick boots. That's the answer. DJ makes 'em, or can modify aftermarket > shifter boots from Pep Boys and the like. Also, boots around the aileron > pushrods where they FENESTRATE the fuselage sides will keep the air from > getting into the cabin at all. I think Sam B. shows an install on his > website. > > Good luck and get 'er done before wintertime! > > Brian Denk > RV8 N94BD > RV10 '51 > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:47 PM PST US From: "Keith Hedrick OD" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: cold air --> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD" i have an email into to Abby. thanks again. kt =========== ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick Galati" Subject: RV-List: Re: cold air > --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati > > I'm happy to say I worked with Abby Erdmann of Flightline Interiors to produce correctly sized aileron boots using ripstock fabric for the RV-6 series. I believe the going price is $19 per pair. Give her a call. I installed the boots with 2 flywheel cutter produced retaining rings (one outside, one inside) that capture the fabric and are held to the fuselage sides with screws and nutplates. Overkill I know, but hey...its my airplane. > > Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" N307R "finishing" > > > I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around the > stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration and > for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only one > with this problem. > > thanks > > Keith Hedrick > RV 6 > 3LF > >