Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:15 AM - Brake Fluid (Neil Henderson)
2. 02:16 AM - Re: Dynon D-10 errors (Jeff Point)
3. 05:06 AM - Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors (Ed Anderson)
4. 06:54 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Land Shorter)
5. 07:10 AM - Re: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors (Dave Bristol)
6. 07:57 AM - Re: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors (SportAV8R@aol.com)
7. 08:26 AM - Re: Vortex Generators (Roger Embree)
8. 08:58 AM - Re: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
9. 09:14 AM - Re: cold air (Mike Robertson)
10. 10:00 AM - Re: Brake Fluid (JusCash@aol.com)
11. 10:38 AM - Re: Dynon D-10 errors (N13eer@aol.com)
12. 10:54 AM - Dynon D10 (Wheeler North)
13. 12:05 PM - Re: Dynon D-10 errors (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
14. 12:23 PM - Re: Dynon D-10 errors (Bruce Gray)
15. 12:39 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (cgalley)
16. 02:44 PM - Re: Dynon D-10 errors (Bob Japundza)
17. 03:36 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (Doug Rozendaal)
18. 04:36 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (JusCash@aol.com)
19. 05:00 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (Jim Jewell)
20. 06:47 PM - Re : Brake Fluid (Martin Hone)
21. 06:49 PM - Re : Brake Fluid (Martin Hone)
22. 07:18 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (Bob Japundza)
23. 07:36 PM - Re: K1100-06 nutplate installation on e-616 ()
24. 07:37 PM - > Re: Brake Fluid (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
25. 07:54 PM - Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? (thomas a. sargent)
26. 08:15 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (cgalley)
27. 09:19 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (HCRV6@aol.com)
28. 09:59 PM - Landing gear intersection fairings. (Dean Psiropoulos)
29. 11:31 PM - Re: Brake Fluid (Vanremog@aol.com)
30. 11:37 PM - Why such short rivets? (ed)
Message 1
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51@btopenworld.com>
Listers
About a year ago there was a thread discussing brake fluids and the use of automatic
transmission oil as being a suitable substitution. I've searched the archives
but can't find the references. There a couple of types of transmission oil
available, does anyone know what grade to use or are either suitable.
Neil Henderson RV9A 98% finished 10% to go
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Mike,
With about 90 hours on my D-10, I have also seen the roll error you
described on occasion. I limit my flying to VFR for now. If I ever get
my prop back I'll do some testing and see if it is RPM related.
Jeff Point
RV-6
Milwaukee WI
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
If the Dynon uses "solid state" gyros as part of their stabilization
mechanism then I can see the possibility that the problem could be RPM
related. Unlike the spinning mass gyro the solid state gyro rely on a
vibrating electric element to establish a spatial reference plane. IF the
frequency of the engine (or a harmonic of the basic engine frequency)
happens to fall within the proper range then it could be influencing the
vibrating element and confusing the processing of the signal from the that
element. If that is the case, then perhaps better physical isolation might
cure the problem.
Any correlation between engine type such as the larger 360 causing more of
a problem than say the 320??
Ed
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10 errors
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
> Mike,
>
> With about 90 hours on my D-10, I have also seen the roll error you
> described on occasion. I limit my flying to VFR for now. If I ever get
> my prop back I'll do some testing and see if it is RPM related.
>
> Jeff Point
> RV-6
> Milwaukee WI
>
> >
> >
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com>
I'm with you guys on seeing some numbers. I'm working on it, believe me :) I'm
a mechanical engineer so I like data as much as anyone.
I intend to borrow a boom from my boss and get some good data on the effect at
the bottom end as well as at cruise. It just takes time, especially when *everyone*
wants data on their plane :) Though of course the RV market is huge so
I obviously will be focusing on getting you guys some numbers.
Joa
www.landshorter.com
++++++++++++++++++++++
Your product looks intriguing and the price seems right for sure. It
would
be good if we had some reliable test data from an RV. Any installed so
far?
Thanx
Jerry Cochran
<<
I'll second that. I'm interested, but want to hear an RV testimonial
even at that
price :-)
-BB
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
---------------------------------
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors |
on zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
With this in mind, I would try taking the alternator off-line and see if
the problem still exists, since charging system noise might also be
affecting it.
Dave -6 So Cal
EAA Technical Counselor
Ed Anderson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
>
>If the Dynon uses "solid state" gyros as part of their stabilization
>mechanism then I can see the possibility that the problem could be RPM
>related. Unlike the spinning mass gyro the solid state gyro rely on a
>vibrating electric element to establish a spatial reference plane. IF the
>frequency of the engine (or a harmonic of the basic engine frequency)
>happens to fall within the proper range then it could be influencing the
>vibrating element and confusing the processing of the signal from the that
>element. If that is the case, then perhaps better physical isolation might
>cure the problem.
>
> Any correlation between engine type such as the larger 360 causing more of
>a problem than say the 320??
>
>Ed
>
>Ed Anderson
>RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>Matthews, NC
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jeff Point" <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10 errors
>
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Please tell me this has been fixed with the new model; I was already planning a
new panel around the Dynon now that my old electric horizon is getting a bit
wobbly from all the barrel rolls... Len, any "leans" in your Dynon installation?
-Stormy
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Roger Embree <j.embree@sympatico.ca>
For the newbies, have a look at Terry Jantzi's site for VGs supplied by
Larry Vetterman.
http://www.ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
Roger Embree
RV-4 Alliston Ontario
Land Shorter wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Land Shorter <landshorter2@yahoo.com>
>
>
>I'm with you guys on seeing some numbers. I'm working on it, believe me :) I'm
a mechanical engineer so I like data as much as anyone.
>
>I intend to borrow a boom from my boss and get some good data on the effect at
the bottom end as well as at cruise. It just takes time, especially when *everyone*
wants data on their plane :) Though of course the RV market is huge
so I obviously will be focusing on getting you guys some numbers.
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
In conversations with Dynon, they did not feel the new 10A unit would
behave any differently on this issue.
Mike
Do not archive.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
SportAV8R@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Solid State gyro Dynon D-10 errors
--> RV-List message posted by: SportAV8R@aol.com
Please tell me this has been fixed with the new model; I was already
planning a new panel around the Dynon now that my old electric horizon
is getting a bit wobbly from all the barrel rolls... Len, any "leans"
in your Dynon installation?
-Stormy
==
==
==
==
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
The RV-ator from a couple of issues ago also has a nice article on making
these boots. It was very easy and done quite quickly.
Mike Robertson
>From: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes@comcast.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: cold air
>Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:10:58 -0400
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Harvey Sigmon" <rv6hes@comcast.net>
>
>There is a cloth boot that can be installed around the aileron push rod as
>it comes into the cockpit on each side to keep the air out. I think I
>saw
>them for sale at Cleveland or Becky Ormdorf.
>Harvey Sigmon RV-6A N602RV flying
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <jammeter@comcast.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: cold air
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: jammeter@comcast.net
> >
> > You DO have a boot on the stick? That stopped all of the cold air
> > problems on my RV-6
> >
> > John
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >
> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD"
> >>
> >> Oh great list,
> >>
> >> I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around
>the
> >> stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration
> >> and
> >> for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only
> >> one
> >> with this problem.
> >>
> >> thanks
> >>
> >> Keith Hedrick
> >> RV 6
> >> 3LF
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > You DO have a boot on the stick? That stopped all of the cold air
>problems
> > on my RV-6
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > -------------- Original message --------------
> >
> > -- RV-List message posted by: "Keith Hedrick OD"
> > <KHEDRICK@FRONTIERNET.NET>
> >
> > Oh great list,
> >
> > I would like to stop (or slow down) the cold air that comes up around
>the
> > stick. Is there a kit made to install around the fuselage fenestration
>and
> > for the stick housing to do this ?? If not, any ideas or am I the only
>one
> > with this problem.
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Keith Hedrick
> > RV 6
> > 3LF
> >
> >
> > >
> > ttp://www.matronics.com/trouble-report
> >
> >
> >
>
>
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
Just curious, why would you want to use automatic transmission fluid in place
of the recommended MIL-H-5606G brake fluid?
Cash Copeland A&P
RV-6 Hayward, Ca
In a message dated 9/7/2004 1:16:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
neil.mo51@btopenworld.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Neil Henderson" <neil.mo51@btopenworld.com>
Listers
About a year ago there was a thread discussing brake fluids and the use of
automatic transmission oil as being a suitable substitution. I've searched the
archives but can't find the references. There a couple of types of transmission
oil available, does anyone know what grade to use or are either suitable.
Neil Henderson RV9A 98% finished 10% to go
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: N13eer@aol.com
Mike,
It is not clear from your description if the pitch error was a single event or
an oscillation. A couple months back I was doing some hood time with a CFI in
the back seat of my -8. After leveling off after a long descent (If I remember
it was from 8500 down to 2500) My Dynon started pitching up and down. It
didn't just pitch up 20 deg and stay there. It was about 20 deg each way. Since
the airspeed and alt were stable I just watched it, it was a little unnerving.
It damped out after about 5 cycles. At the time Dynon said they had seen
an issue in roll at about 1900 rpm that they could duplicate but had not seen
or been told of other pitch issues. I tried to duplicate the issue but to date
I have not been able to. Doug at Dynon was very interested and wanted any
info on being able to recreate it.
Alan Kritzman
To summarize, myself and others, have been getting errors on the horizon
function of the Dynon EFIS. In one case it really scared me and as a
result I have grounded me 6A from any IFR work. Most of the errors are a
lean in the roll axis by as much as 7-10 degrees. Pitch errors in my
case have been as much as 20 degrees. Here is a brief synopsis of what
and how it is happening based on some e-mail to Dynon:
Message 12
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"'owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com '"@matronics.com
--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
MS,
thanks for the report, I haven't had most of those issues, but I haven't
necessarily done those manuvers with the intent of diagnosing a problem.
I'll print this and go check mine. That said I'm up in the 400-500 hour
range of operation and so far the only real error is the pitch lag during
rapid changes in velocity like a loop or a set of knife edge dutch type
rolls.
There was a period where I was getting some slight lean for awhile but that
seems to have cleared up.
RPM issue, mostly I keep things at 2200-2400 so I may not be in the range
you are seeing this. I have the FP Sensenich though so RPM issues may act
differently from a CS prop. The question I am asking myself is what effects
on forces and attitude does RPM have. So far the only thing that comes to
mind is yaw and panel vibration.
The other question that comes up is why is there different behaviour between
units. Is it the unit's or the airplane, or the installation. One line of
thought would be to put your unit in a different airplane and see if it
behaves the same, then try a different unit in your plane, then try it in
your plane but installed differently, say velcroed somewhere. Also would be
interesting to see if it is different with connector disconnected operating
on battery power. Not sure about this last one, but RF and spikes do strange
things.
I'll let you know my results as soon as work/life lets me go fly some more.
I did play with it some going to Vans as per Dynon's request but saw no
errors. Your data gives me some more specifics to try.
W
Message 13
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| Subject: | Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
That was a single event of that degree. It was not oscillating at all so
It did not clearly identify that it was malfunctioning. It just showed a
20deg climb and stayed there. I did not follow it at the time cause I
was heading into my home base spec. vfr and was busy.
I have had say, a dozen times where the pitch was off by about oh 5
degrees. Never oscillating like the roll has done. And even in the roll
oscillation, the oscillations are smooth and slow, say 15 seconds
between 7degrees right to 7 degrees left.
Now I had one time a month ago when it was erratic, where it was
responding hyper sensitively to all axis. A tiny pitch up in control
resulted in a giant 20-30 degree pitch up. If you believed the screen,
you would have just ripped the wings off based on what the screen was
telling you. I was vfr severe clear on this day and ignored it. What was
not so bad about this type of error is that it is so bad that you can
ignore it and you don't try to follow it. These others are not so
obvious and much more dangerous IMHO as a result. I do think it is
probably exactly what you described below in your experience.
To answer some off-line questions that others might be interested in:
1. No I have not tried a different unit. We are trying to work with a
known good unit to troubleshoot. And no my unit has not been tried in
another plane. I think you can tell from some of the posts that these
are not isolated incidents, particularly the leaning.
2. No I have not tried dampeners. Dynon feels at this stage that a
change in the sampling rate might work and so we are doing that.
3. No I have not tried the 10A and I don't know personally if any 10A's
have exhibited this behavior. All I can tell you is that I offered to
upgrade and they did not believe it would fix the problem. So I can only
assume from this that the new hardware in their estimation would or does
or has exhibited this behavior also.
4. I have an 0-360 a1a, c/s, Dual EI, AFP FI sissy wheel plane.
5. No I do not know at all if the remote compass has any effect nor do I
know if any of the others have or don't have the remote compass. I do
have it.
6. I have seen the lean at many different rpm's, it is just that 2560 is
the number I can readily reproduce it every time.
7. This has been going on since day one in the leaning issue. Only in
the last couple of hundred hours of operation have I seen the pitch
error.
8. I am sorry I have not said anything sooner. I did not want a product
panic and I wanted to try and root cause the problem with the
manufacturer. The longer it goes, the more I hear from others about the
extent of the problem in the field. You are seeing some posts from
others now that are "I have seen that too" which is what I suspected. I
have had great difficulty in weighing the safety/panic issue and decided
now it is time that others be aware of the problem and that it is being
worked. Not to panic, but to be informed and take extra care as a result
of the info. It would have weighed on me heavy if something terrible
happened to a friend where my silence could have been a contributing
factor. We should be able to look at my data points and others, without
respect to emotion, and make decisions moving forward. Increased
awareness is a good thing.
Regards,
Mike Stewart
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N13eer@aol.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10 errors
--> RV-List message posted by: N13eer@aol.com
Mike,
It is not clear from your description if the pitch error was a single
event or an oscillation. A couple months back I was doing some hood
time with a CFI in the back seat of my -8. After leveling off after a
long descent (If I remember it was from 8500 down to 2500) My Dynon
started pitching up and down. It didn't just pitch up 20 deg and stay
there. It was about 20 deg each way. Since the airspeed and alt were
stable I just watched it, it was a little unnerving. It damped out
after about 5 cycles. At the time Dynon said they had seen an issue in
roll at about 1900 rpm that they could duplicate but had not seen or
been told of other pitch issues. I tried to duplicate the issue but to
date I have not been able to. Doug at Dynon was very interested and
wanted any info on being able to recreate it.
Alan Kritzman
To summarize, myself and others, have been getting errors on the horizon
function of the Dynon EFIS. In one case it really scared me and as a
result I have grounded me 6A from any IFR work. Most of the errors are a
lean in the roll axis by as much as 7-10 degrees. Pitch errors in my
case have been as much as 20 degrees. Here is a brief synopsis of what
and how it is happening based on some e-mail to Dynon:
==
==
==
==
Message 14
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| Subject: | Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Now you guys are starting to find out why certified AHERS are so
expensive.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Message 15
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--> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Auto transmission fluid has several pluses. Cheap, readily available, works
well, doesn't absorb moisture, doesn't dry to a sticky mess, doesn't catch
fire at as low a temperature as 5606.
BUT you have to use compatible seals.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: <JusCash@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Brake Fluid
> --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
>
> Just curious, why would you want to use automatic transmission fluid in
place
> of the recommended MIL-H-5606G brake fluid?
>
> Cash Copeland A&P
> RV-6 Hayward, Ca
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2004 1:16:33 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> neil.mo51@btopenworld.com writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Neil Henderson"
<neil.mo51@btopenworld.com>
>
> Listers
>
> About a year ago there was a thread discussing brake fluids and the use of
> automatic transmission oil as being a suitable substitution. I've searched
the
> archives but can't find the references. There a couple of types of
transmission
> oil available, does anyone know what grade to use or are either suitable.
>
> Neil Henderson RV9A 98% finished 10% to go
>
>
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Dynon D-10 errors |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob Japundza <japundza@gmail.com>
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:01:30 -0400, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)
<mstewart@iss.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
>
> That was a single event of that degree. It was not oscillating at all so
> It did not clearly identify that it was malfunctioning. It just showed a
> 20deg climb and stayed there. I did not follow it at the time cause I
> was heading into my home base spec. vfr and was busy.
>
> I have had say, a dozen times where the pitch was off by about oh 5
> degrees. Never oscillating like the roll has done. And even in the roll
> oscillation, the oscillations are smooth and slow, say 15 seconds
> between 7degrees right to 7 degrees left.
>
> Now I had one time a month ago when it was erratic, where it was
> responding hyper sensitively to all axis. A tiny pitch up in control
> resulted in a giant 20-30 degree pitch up. If you believed the screen,
> you would have just ripped the wings off based on what the screen was
> telling you. I was vfr severe clear on this day and ignored it. What was
> not so bad about this type of error is that it is so bad that you can
> ignore it and you don't try to follow it. These others are not so
> obvious and much more dangerous IMHO as a result. I do think it is
> probably exactly what you described below in your experience.
>
> To answer some off-line questions that others might be interested in:
> 1. No I have not tried a different unit. We are trying to work with a
> known good unit to troubleshoot. And no my unit has not been tried in
> another plane. I think you can tell from some of the posts that these
> are not isolated incidents, particularly the leaning.
> 2. No I have not tried dampeners. Dynon feels at this stage that a
> change in the sampling rate might work and so we are doing that.
> 3. No I have not tried the 10A and I don't know personally if any 10A's
> have exhibited this behavior. All I can tell you is that I offered to
> upgrade and they did not believe it would fix the problem. So I can only
> assume from this that the new hardware in their estimation would or does
> or has exhibited this behavior also.
> 4. I have an 0-360 a1a, c/s, Dual EI, AFP FI sissy wheel plane.
> 5. No I do not know at all if the remote compass has any effect nor do I
> know if any of the others have or don't have the remote compass. I do
> have it.
> 6. I have seen the lean at many different rpm's, it is just that 2560 is
> the number I can readily reproduce it every time.
> 7. This has been going on since day one in the leaning issue. Only in
> the last couple of hundred hours of operation have I seen the pitch
> error.
> 8. I am sorry I have not said anything sooner. I did not want a product
> panic and I wanted to try and root cause the problem with the
> manufacturer. The longer it goes, the more I hear from others about the
> extent of the problem in the field. You are seeing some posts from
> others now that are "I have seen that too" which is what I suspected. I
> have had great difficulty in weighing the safety/panic issue and decided
> now it is time that others be aware of the problem and that it is being
> worked. Not to panic, but to be informed and take extra care as a result
> of the info. It would have weighed on me heavy if something terrible
> happened to a friend where my silence could have been a contributing
> factor. We should be able to look at my data points and others, without
> respect to emotion, and make decisions moving forward. Increased
> awareness is a good thing.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Stewart
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N13eer@aol.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon D-10 errors
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: N13eer@aol.com
>
> Mike,
> It is not clear from your description if the pitch error was a single
> event or an oscillation. A couple months back I was doing some hood
> time with a CFI in the back seat of my -8. After leveling off after a
> long descent (If I remember it was from 8500 down to 2500) My Dynon
> started pitching up and down. It didn't just pitch up 20 deg and stay
> there. It was about 20 deg each way. Since the airspeed and alt were
> stable I just watched it, it was a little unnerving. It damped out
> after about 5 cycles. At the time Dynon said they had seen an issue in
> roll at about 1900 rpm that they could duplicate but had not seen or
> been told of other pitch issues. I tried to duplicate the issue but to
> date I have not been able to. Doug at Dynon was very interested and
> wanted any info on being able to recreate it.
>
> Alan Kritzman
>
> To summarize, myself and others, have been getting errors on the horizon
> function of the Dynon EFIS. In one case it really scared me and as a
> result I have grounded me 6A from any IFR work. Most of the errors are a
> lean in the roll axis by as much as 7-10 degrees. Pitch errors in my
> case have been as much as 20 degrees. Here is a brief synopsis of what
> and how it is happening based on some e-mail to Dynon:
>
> ==
> ==
> ==
> ==
>
>
>
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
ATF should be compatible with 5606 seals. Note, I said should, but I have
pretty high confidence on that. Further, ATF should be compatible with 5606
if they were mixed but I have not tried that. Does anyone know what the
seals in Cleveland brakes are made of?? Buna-N
ATF should work as a brake fluid at any temp that we would fly an RV. ATF's
typically have Pour Points in the -50F range.
Having said all that, why? a well maintained brake system needs little
service, a gallon of 5606 is about $15 and will last a lifetime. ATF's have
all sorts of things that you do not need in your brake system, Viscosity
Index improvers, friction modifiers, anti-oxidants (that only work at high
temperatures) detergents (that only work at high temperatures) anti-wear
agents,( that only work under high loads). Many small cheap hydraulic
systems use ATF as a hydraulic fluid, because it has very low viscometrics
and excellent low temp properties. That is the only reason. You may say
that ATF is easier to find than 5606, but your airplane is at the airport
and you can find 5606 at any airport, ATF will be more difficult.
I would vote for 5606.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
If cheap is the issue a gallon of 5606 at $13.95 will supply just about every
airplane on the airport. Or if you are really cheap get a quart for $3.95.
Or if you are really, really cheap and don't want to share with your building
buddies a pint at $2.20 is enough to do the brakes on an RV. Readily available
from ACS and other aircraft parts suppliers.
In my experience brake fires happen when plastic brake lines are used and the
heat generated by a hard brake application melts them. The latest versions
of the RV don't use plastic brake lines so that should not be a problem.
Agreed if you spill it and let it dry it can be a mess. Just clean it up when
you
spill it.
By the time you figure out the proper seals to use, disassemble and
reassemble the components why not just use the recommended brake fluid.
This is what I recommend to new builders and I'm sticking to it.
Cash Copeland A&P
RV-6
Hayward, Ca
In a message dated 9/7/2004 12:40:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
Auto transmission fluid has several pluses. Cheap, readily available, works
well, doesn't absorb moisture, doesn't dry to a sticky mess, doesn't catch
fire at as low a temperature as 5606.
BUT you have to use compatible seals.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
I don't plan to move away from what is suggested by the brake components
manufacturer as yet.
However if I was going to look for an alternative I think I would go with
DOT 5 synthetic. It costs more but my guess is that it would perform well
without the unknowns (additives) etc. that non spec. products contain.
I'm not sure but I suspect that DOT 5 would operate without the need to
change out seals etc.
Does anyone feel a strong impulse to offer up an opinion or even some data
or an in the field experience report on DOT 5 synthetic? {[;-)
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: <JusCash@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Brake Fluid
> --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
>
> If cheap is the issue a gallon of 5606 at $13.95 will supply just about
> every
> airplane on the airport. Or if you are really cheap get a quart for
> $3.95.
> Or if you are really, really cheap and don't want to share with your
> building
> buddies a pint at $2.20 is enough to do the brakes on an RV. Readily
> available
> from ACS and other aircraft parts suppliers.
>
> In my experience brake fires happen when plastic brake lines are used and
> the
> heat generated by a hard brake application melts them. The latest
> versions
> of the RV don't use plastic brake lines so that should not be a problem.
> Agreed if you spill it and let it dry it can be a mess. Just clean it up
> when you
> spill it.
>
> By the time you figure out the proper seals to use, disassemble and
> reassemble the components why not just use the recommended brake fluid.
>
> This is what I recommend to new builders and I'm sticking to it.
>
> Cash Copeland A&P
> RV-6
> Hayward, Ca
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re : Brake Fluid |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" <mctrader@bigpond.net.au>
I too had a similar query to Neil regarding using ATF in my RV's brakes. My
previous aircraft had Cleveland copies, and the manufacturer recommended
using ATF, which I happily did for 10 years without a problem. Certainly
cost is not an issue and neither is availability, but flammability is.
MIL-H5606 is a mineral oil-based hydraulic fluid that has been in use since
the 1940's with an operating range of - 54C to 135C, but its high degree if
flammability has long been recognised by the military. As a result,
commercial aircraft moved to phosphate ester-based hydraulic fluids (eg
Skydrol) and found a reduction in hydraulic fluid fires.
A direct replacement for 5606 that is more fire resistant was developed,
called MIL-H 83282, and is a synthetic hydro-carbon based fluid that is
compatible with 5606 and 5606 based system materials. It has an operating
range of - 40C to 205C
When I went searching for MIL-H 83282 I could not buy it anything smaller
than 20 litres ( 4 US Gals) so that idea went out the window.
In the end I went with the garden-variety 5606 thought I felt I could have
just as easily used ATF.
Other than flammability, the main issue is seal compatibility. You would
need to test seal compatability if you used DOT 5 synthetic fluid, and I
would have a preference for DOT 5.1 which I believe is non-synthetic.
Hope this helps
Martin in Oz
RV-6
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re : Brake Fluid |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" <mctrader@bigpond.net.au>
I too had a similar query to Neil regarding using ATF in my RV's brakes. My
previous aircraft had Cleveland copies, and the manufacturer recommended
using ATF, which I happily did for 10 years without a problem. Certainly
cost is not an issue and neither is availability, but flammability is.
MIL-H5606 is a mineral oil-based hydraulic fluid that has been in use since
the 1940's with an operating range of - 54C to 135C, but its high degree if
flammability has long been recognised by the military. As a result,
commercial aircraft moved to phosphate ester-based hydraulic fluids (eg
Skydrol) and found a reduction in hydraulic fluid fires.
A direct replacement for 5606 that is more fire resistant was developed,
called MIL-H 83282, and is a synthetic hydro-carbon based fluid that is
compatible with 5606 and 5606 based system materials. It has an operating
range of - 40C to 205C
When I went searching for MIL-H 83282 I could not buy it anything smaller
than 20 litres ( 4 US Gals) so that idea went out the window.
In the end I went with the garden-variety 5606 thought I felt I could have
just as easily used ATF.
Other than flammability, the main issue is seal compatibility. You would
need to test seal compatability if you used DOT 5 synthetic fluid, and I
would have a preference for DOT 5.1 which I believe is non-synthetic.
Hope this helps
Martin in Oz
RV-6
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bob Japundza <japundza@gmail.com>
I have been running synthetic ATF in my brake lines for four years and
never have had ANY problems. While I was at wal-mart with the family
unit picking up a giant sized pack of toilet paper and some other
stuff I strolled over over to the aviation supply aisle and picked up
a quart of Mobil1 Synthetic ATF for the rocket and gave a whopping
$2.60 for it. No hazardous material shipping charges, no shipping
charges, etc. Aeroshell lists the flash point of fluid 4 (5606) at
110 deg. C, the newer fire-resistant replacement for 5606 is aeroshell
31, flash point of 220 deg. C. Mobil1 synthetic ATF flash point: 220
deg. In fact when you compare the specs between Mobil1 and fluid 31
they're nearly identical. I will venture to say that they're (choke,
gasp) the same dang thing.
In a nutshell, there are two types of o-rings and seals: those that
work with oil and those that work with water. Automotive brake fluid
is hydroscopic (absorbs water) therefore automotive brake systems use
o-rings that work with water. Big no-no with seals that work only
with oil (like in aircraft brake systems).
There's no good reason to say that a fluid that has been around for
50+ years is any better than a modern fluid, espicially if it has a
flashpoint that is half of its modern counterpart. For some reason
the good people in the aviation community refuse to think outside the
box, if its cheap it can't be good, if it isn't mil-spec it can't be
good, if it isn't complex it can't be good, etc. For the matter I
know quite a few guys running plastic brake lines also, one RV-4 with
1500+ hours on plastic brake lines and ATF and has never had any
problems. The others went to plastic after several breaks with the
aluminum lines.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying, F1 under const.
Indy
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 19:34:14 EDT, juscash@aol.com <juscash@aol.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
>
> If cheap is the issue a gallon of 5606 at $13.95 will supply just about every
> airplane on the airport. Or if you are really cheap get a quart for $3.95.
> Or if you are really, really cheap and don't want to share with your building
> buddies a pint at $2.20 is enough to do the brakes on an RV. Readily available
> from ACS and other aircraft parts suppliers.
>
> In my experience brake fires happen when plastic brake lines are used and the
> heat generated by a hard brake application melts them. The latest versions
> of the RV don't use plastic brake lines so that should not be a problem.
> Agreed if you spill it and let it dry it can be a mess. Just clean it up when
you
> spill it.
>
> By the time you figure out the proper seals to use, disassemble and
> reassemble the components why not just use the recommended brake fluid.
>
> This is what I recommend to new builders and I'm sticking to it.
>
> Cash Copeland A&P
> RV-6
> Hayward, Ca
>
> In a message dated 9/7/2004 12:40:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> cgalley@qcbc.org writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
>
> Auto transmission fluid has several pluses. Cheap, readily available, works
> well, doesn't absorb moisture, doesn't dry to a sticky mess, doesn't catch
> fire at as low a temperature as 5606.
>
> BUT you have to use compatible seals.
>
> Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
> Safety Programs Editor - TC
> EAA Sport Pilot
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: K1100-06 nutplate installation on e-616 |
--> RV-List message posted by: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Mike
Why not simply dimple the rivet holes in the nutplates and the doubler?
Charlie Kuss
>
> From: Mike Draper <mdraper@nww.com>
> Date: 2004/09/06 Mon PM 03:09:02 EDT
> To: "'rv-list@matronics.com'" <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: K1100-06 nutplate installation on e-616
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: > Re: Brake Fluid |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Better be careful using any DOT fluids. Automotive brake fluid (Glycerine
based) is NOT compatible with aircraft brake systems. You will wind up with a
gooey mess which is hard to clean out of the brake system. A friend did this.
Lest someone goes to buy auto brake fluid.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: how to feed the battery cable through the firewall?? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
I would be a little suspicious about the thru-bolt type of pass-thru.
The insulating material seems to be (from the pictures, anyway) a
plastic of some sort. I would think a fire would ruin that in seconds.
Do they make these things with a ceramic insulator?
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A, Landing gear
Message 26
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--> RV-List message posted by: "cgalley" <cgalley@qcbc.org>
I was told by Dave Ronnenberg that he didn't want Dot 5 in his building let
alone in his airplane. Dot 5 is silicone based and makes it very difficult
to paint a surface that is contaminated with Dot 5 and epoxy repairs were
also impaired. I know he recommends tray fluid but brake fluid is your
decision. The very worse fluid is ordinary auto brake fluid as it is not
compatible with aircraft seals. It also absorbs moisture which will corrode
brake parts. However some old bladder brakes do require the use of
automotive.
Cy Galley - Chair, Emergency Aircraft Repair
Safety Programs Editor - TC
EAA Sport Pilot
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Brake Fluid
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> I don't plan to move away from what is suggested by the brake components
> manufacturer as yet.
>
> However if I was going to look for an alternative I think I would go with
> DOT 5 synthetic. It costs more but my guess is that it would perform well
> without the unknowns (additives) etc. that non spec. products contain.
> I'm not sure but I suspect that DOT 5 would operate without the need to
> change out seals etc.
> Does anyone feel a strong impulse to offer up an opinion or even some data
> or an in the field experience report on DOT 5 synthetic? {[;-)
>
> Jim in Kelowna
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <JusCash@aol.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Brake Fluid
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: JusCash@aol.com
> >
> > If cheap is the issue a gallon of 5606 at $13.95 will supply just about
> > every
> > airplane on the airport. Or if you are really cheap get a quart for
> > $3.95.
> > Or if you are really, really cheap and don't want to share with your
> > building
> > buddies a pint at $2.20 is enough to do the brakes on an RV. Readily
> > available
> > from ACS and other aircraft parts suppliers.
> >
> > In my experience brake fires happen when plastic brake lines are used
and
> > the
> > heat generated by a hard brake application melts them. The latest
> > versions
> > of the RV don't use plastic brake lines so that should not be a problem.
> > Agreed if you spill it and let it dry it can be a mess. Just clean it
up
> > when you
> > spill it.
> >
> > By the time you figure out the proper seals to use, disassemble and
> > reassemble the components why not just use the recommended brake fluid.
> >
> > This is what I recommend to new builders and I'm sticking to it.
> >
> > Cash Copeland A&P
> > RV-6
> > Hayward, Ca
>
>
Message 27
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--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 9/7/04 1:16:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
neil.mo51@btopenworld.com writes:
<< About a year ago there was a thread discussing brake fluids and the use of
automatic transmission oil as being a suitable substitution. >>
I'm curious. Is there some reason you don't want to use aircraft brake fluid?
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, final details
Message 28
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| Subject: | Landing gear intersection fairings. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Psiropoulos" <deanpsir@easystreet.com>
Anyone know where I can get pre-made landing gear intersection fairings for
my -6A. I checked the archives and "Fairings-etc." popped up. I was able to
locate the website and these look like good pieces but does anyone ELSE sell
something similar? Just wondering if there's more than one vendor out there
now. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Survived Hurricanes Charley and Frances, wondering if Ivan will be strike 3
and I'm out, jeeeezzz is it ever gonna stop?
Message 29
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--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 9/7/2004 7:19:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
japundza@gmail.com writes:
Automotive brake fluid
is hydroscopic (absorbs water) therefore automotive brake systems use
o-rings that work with water.
====================================
Bob-
Actually hygroscopic is the correct term.
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A C/S, flying 719 hrs)
Message 30
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| Subject: | Why such short rivets? |
From: "ed \240" <ed_88@hotmai...
--> RV-List message posted by: "ed " <ed_88@hotmail.com>
Hello listers, I've recently started building the emp kit for my
rv-8a, and I've run into my first question that I cant seem to find
discussed in the archives.
According to the plans HS609PP is supposed to be riveted to HS603PP using
AN470AD4-6 rivets. But when I did a test fitting the rivet looked too short.
I got out the avery gauge, and indeed it looks about 1/8" shorter than the
gauge says it should be.
So of course I went back to the plans, and they said the rivet size was
correct. (I guess I am not the first person to wonder this.) I re-read the
section in the preview plans which talks about riveting, and they mentioned
the plans sometimes called for rivets that seemed too short, but they
thought should work. Unfortuately this leaves me with a couple of questions:
1) How far should these "short" rivets be squeezed? Should I squeeze to
the same 1/2 the radius rule as normal? Or should I squeeze farther to get
more of a shop head on the rivet?
2) Why do they do this? Does using shorter rivets save weight over the
course of the entire airplane?
3) Why do the plans say never to use a vibrating pencil to mark parts,
then say it is ok on the rear spar of the horiz. stab? How can I tell when
it is ok and when its not ok. (Ok that one has nothing to do with riveting,
but I thought I would ask anyway.)
Once again, the people on this list are a huge resource, I don't know who
the early builders managed without it.
--Eddie
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
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