---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/20/04: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:27 AM - Really Great Pumpkin Festival & Fly-In (Warren Hurd) 2. 08:17 AM - Tampa, FL Area Builders/Flyers? (Matthew Brandes) 3. 08:33 AM - Re: Control Vision EXP BUS (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 4. 09:03 AM - Re: Control Vision EXP BUS (bertrv6@highstream.net) 5. 12:08 PM - Re: FADEC (Kathleen@rv7.us) 6. 12:59 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 (Bob) 7. 01:26 PM - Xcom Saga (Donald Mei) 8. 02:12 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Kathleen@rv7.us) 9. 02:14 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Larry Pardue) 10. 03:03 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (steve zicree) 11. 03:08 PM - Re: Rivet squeezer (Richard Scott) 12. 03:21 PM - Re: Heat Muff Parts (Jim Streit) 13. 03:25 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (steve zicree) 14. 03:26 PM - (no subject) (Bluecavu@aol.com) 15. 03:38 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 (Sam Buchanan) 16. 03:40 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Charlie England) 17. 04:11 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Larry Pardue) 18. 04:42 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (steve zicree) 19. 05:00 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (steve zicree) 20. 05:34 PM - FW: Mounting of Bendix Fuel Servo (Emrath) 21. 06:38 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Jerry Hansen) 22. 06:55 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Sam Buchanan) 23. 07:04 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Doug Rozendaal) 24. 07:38 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (Scott Jackson) 25. 07:41 PM - Grand Canyon airspace (Sam Buchanan) 26. 08:54 PM - Innovative Intake (Jeff Bertsch) 27. 10:53 PM - Re: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu (steve zicree) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:11 AM PST US From: Warren Hurd Subject: RV-List: Really Great Pumpkin Festival & Fly-In --> RV-List message posted by: Warren Hurd Oct. 23rd, Keene NH. (EEN) Really Great Pumpkin Festival & Fly-In. Hosted by EAA Chapter 1314. Fly-In is held on the same day as the Keene Pumpkin Festival, Worlds largest collection of lighted pumpkins last year. Transportation provided. So join us for a hamburger. More info at http://www.ahyup.com/1314/pumpkin/ Fly-In or drive in and park at the airport. Bring the family and let them go see the pumpkins while you hang out at the airport. Shuttle bus every 45 min. We will have food and a TV showing kit aircraft propaganda. We will be there from 11:00 to 10:00. Have fun & fly safe! Do not archive Warren Hurd RV-9A builder ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:24 AM PST US From: "Matthew Brandes" Subject: RV-List: Tampa, FL Area Builders/Flyers? --> RV-List message posted by: "Matthew Brandes" I found myself traveling to Tampa, FL next week with nothing to do on Wednesday night (Oct. 27th). Any Tampa Bay builders/flyers out there willing to take me up for a ride (if flying) or want to show off their project under construction? Hec.. I'd be willing to buck or drive some rivets. :-) I arrive at TPA at 4:40pm and will be staying at the Trade Winds Grand Island Resort. Matthew Brandes, Van's RV-9A (Fuselage/Finish) EAA Chapter 868/91/1329 www.n523rv.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:26 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Vision EXP BUS --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Kevin, Having worked on GM's voltage regulator program back in the 1960s, I can shed some light on the mystery of load dump. Load dump is a term coined by the engineers I worked with, as far as I know anyway. Here is how a load dump happens. If the alternator is running full field (that is -- full output) charging the battery or any other load, and if that load becomes disconnected, the output voltage will soar. The alternator momentarily acts like a current source and tries to maintain the same current that it was putting out before the load came unhooked. The voltage can rise as high as about 80 to 100 volts. Battery connections in cars are notorious for developing loose connections, and that is what we were trying to protect against. Just shutting off the alternator by turning off the field breaker does not cause a load dump. You will not hurt your electronics by turning off the alternator, because the field current will decay and then the stator current (and output voltage) should also decay without a spike. To learn more about the nature of load dump, we used to simulate it with a great big knife switch mounted at the edge of a workbench. We would swing a baseball bat down at the knife switch to open it as quickly as possible. This made the greatest load dump voltage possible. The electronic devices (at least the regulator and ignition systems) were designed to withstand 80 volts for 200 milliseconds. Today, avalanche diodes (zeners) in some alternators reduce this voltage to less than half those numbers. I couldn't tell you if my alternator (Van's 60 amp) uses this protection or not. I am familiar with automotive electronic circuits, and I can tell you that aircraft electronics, particularly low cost radios and intercoms, etc., typically are not as robust as electronic systems designed for cars. I would therefore take all precautions available to turn off the electronics while cranking the engine. Having said that, I do have my Van's gauges wired direct to the master buss (through circuit breakers) as called out in the plans, and have not had any trouble. I do not, however, turn on the radios or other avionics until the engine is running and the alternator is on line. Dan Hopper retired automotive engineer RV-7A N766DH (Flying 60 hours since 7/7/04) In a message dated 10/19/04 5:10:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: > > This might not be an EXP BUS problem. There was a long series of > discussions on the Aeroelectric-List earlier this year about > alternator "load dump". Apparently if you switch an alternator OFF > when it is producing a high current, there may be a momentary voltage > spike on the alternator output. I don't understand all the ins and > outs of the issue, but perhaps this was what happened here. It might > be interesting to post your story on the Aeroelectric List. > > If this was caused by "load dump", then there must be other variables > involved too, as I suspect many other flyers have cycled the > alternator switch when the alternator is producing high load, without > frying something. > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > on the road, again :( > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:44 AM PST US From: bertrv6@highstream.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Control Vision EXP BUS --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Quoting Kevin Horton : > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Comeaux" > > > > Dear Listers: > > I have a problem that maybe everyone else should be made aware of > > in case you decide to install the Control Vision EXP BUS center. I had > > Blue Sky Aviation do my electrical and upon initial run up I cycled the > > Alt switch to check the alternator and blew all the resistors in > > the following > > gauges, Tach (Van's) impulse, Both fuel gauges, fuel pressure, > > oil pressure, oil temp. We called Van's and was told of a probable > > compatibilty problem with the 60amp internal regulated alternator with > > use of the EXP BUS system. Has anyone else heard of this? I've heard > > of some other issues regarding the Bus not sure if related. > > This might not be an EXP BUS problem. There was a long series of > discussions on the Aeroelectric-List earlier this year about > alternator "load dump". Apparently if you switch an alternator OFF > when it is producing a high current, there may be a momentary voltage > spike on the alternator output. I don't understand all the ins and > outs of the issue, but perhaps this was what happened here. It might > be interesting to post your story on the Aeroelectric List. > > If this was caused by "load dump", then there must be other variables > involved too, as I suspect many other flyers have cycled the > alternator switch when the alternator is producing high load, without > frying something. > -- > Kevin Horton > Ottawa, Canada > on the road, again :( > > Mike: I have the same system, however if your alternator is more than 45amps the unit have to be modified. You can sent it back and they will do it for you. Or you can try doing it yourself, i choose to have they do it. Call them and they will explain it. you must do this, to avoid this problem.. Bert rv6a > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:05 PM PST US From: Kathleen@rv7.us Subject: RE: RV-List: FADEC --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us So, there is not much action on FADEC, but a few opinions. I got interested after flying behind FADEC, which until now, I thought was just a gimmick. I was amazed (not overstated) at the smoothness of the engine. The egts were constant and level across the cylinders through 9,000 feet. When throttling back and pulling the prop back to give me 19 inches and 2300, it went lean of peak with perfectly balanced cylinders. I can see why it saves fuel, because it keep optimum mixture throughout the takeoff and climb. I found it a pleasure to fly and it wasn't bad that it start on the first turn, hot or cold without priming or fuel pressure relief or any of that. So that's my opinion. If you buy it as a package, it adds less than $2,000 to the cost of an engine. An engine Mattituck with FADEC is only $300 more than the engine I was contemplating. Last year my husband bought me a 350Z for my birthday. At first, I was not certain I would like the fact that it was an automatic. It's the first automatic I have ever owned. I've discovered it's much more fun to drive than the old five speeds I thought I couldn't live without. It has traction control too, which is much better than opening the door and dragging a foot :-) OK, I got my 2 cents worth in. I know there are many of these arguments around tailwheels, high vs low wings and a whole list of other stuff. The great thing about building is being able to make it your way. I think my way just might be FADEC. First, I'm going to go fly one again. Thanks much though, for sharing your opinions.... Do not archive. Kathleen Evans www.rv7.us -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV-List: FADEC --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I still don't get why anybody would want FADEC. I'm not knocking it, I just can't relate to not wanting to control mixture manually. With balanced fuel injectors, you have a huge band of possible operating conditions -- figure the band between 150 ROP and 50 LOP gives you a fuel burn spread of a few gallons per hour. Why not give the operator the control to play around to suit conditions and personal preference? And you're tellin' me I gotta pay big bucks to lose that control? On the other hand, I do have electronic ignition but I do NOT have a "timing knob" in my cockpit. I understand that electronics work way faster & smarter than I do. But that's a very granular, real-time adjustment. With something as non-granular as mixture & prop control, I gotta have my knobs. 8-) As you can see I don't really get it. But I used to think vacuum systems were the way to go...so I'm at least open-minded about being convinced that FADEC is desirable in the first place, let alone worth the price! do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" The price seems a bit hard to reconcile I hear the argument about losing control of mixture choices. However that is likely balanced out somewhat with all those moments when the pilot gets behind mixture management due to unintended mismanagement or other distractions such as looking out the windows (flying){[;-). `Supposedly'... The automatic control should keep the mixture and timing in tight formation regardless of engine load. So then, modifying prop or engine speed as preferred would still deliver the best GPH per RPM all the while preserving engine TBO and reducing operating costs to some (unknown to me)degree. At present the performance issues may, or may not justify the cost for those of us that are among bank account challenged. I'll leave the cost versus performance thing for others wiser than yours truly to deal with. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: FADEC ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: FADEC > --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > > > Seeing there is not much in the archives, I pose the questions: > How many folks flying with FADEC? > What do you think of it? (Do it again?) > What is the down side? > > According to Aerosance, there are RVs flying with angle valve 360s and > FADEC. Does anyone have FADEC on their 200 hp angle valve? How's it > working. > > FADEC costs an arm and a leg. I'm trying to find out if it is worth it.. > > Thanks to all, > > Kathleen Evans > www.rv7.us > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:57 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Bob Review of DYNON D-10 When I was installing the Dynon I made numerous updates on the progress. Now that I have installed the system into my A/C and have been flying with it for over a year, I thought I would share a few of my observations and OPINIONS on the system. Airspeed and Altitude works very well, but I have a RMI MicroEncoder and use that for AS, ALT and VSI. Dynon is hard to read and impossible for me to find the VSI when inverted, numbers are too small. Turn and Bank indicator. I do understand how in theory this is suppose to work, I have yet been able to functionally use it, it seems way too sensitive or maybe the RV is way too sensitive. Artificial Horizon. Really cool when it works (which is 97% of the time), but I have had it drift off during long cross countries. If I had been in the clouds I would have been in a slow turn. Occasionally it has been off as much as 10 degrees. I do not have sufficient confidence in it to use it in IMC. Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I can not believe what a painful process calibrating the magnetic system is. You must download info from the web and a program from Dynon and then connect your computer/laptop to the Dynon and download to it. Pretty easy if you have access to a laptop and know what you are doing, for me it is not worth the effort. Also if you don't know your geographic DIP angle, go search the WWW. G-Meter. Works ok, but too small to be seen during acrobatics. I do have a normal G-meter and use it for Akro. Volt meter. Works well but it is also duplicated on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine Monitor. I do not use the volt meter on the DYNON. Visual tapes for Airspeed and Altimeter. Really neat, easy to convince FAA inspector that I have placarded the Airspeeds as required, but in reality I have never looked at it inflight. Clock, I like this feature best, I use it for flight time for my pilot logbook. Engine monitor records all engine and airframe time. In my case I basically have a $2000 digital clock, the only thing on the Dynon that I routinely use in flight. Reliability. Absolutely no problems with this unit at all. I have thought about adding the AOA, but I wouldn't use it. I know this has been debated off and on, but I know my RV well enough to tell what the AOA is without the instrument. If I flew underpowered and over gross, out of short grass strips with the 50 foot tree, I would have more desire for an accurate AOA instrument. I consider my RV very light and overpowered and most of my flying is out of a 150 foot by 7000 foot paved runway. Overall it is a real neat fun gadget. I love the way you can dim it at night, too cool. But, I bought the system hoping that I could eliminate conventional gyros for IFR flight. Because it does drift, I do not have any confidence in it for IMC. In my case the MicroEncoder makes the Dynon totally superfluous for VFR flight. Bottom line, if it ever breaks or fails, I will probably not fix it or replace in kind! Recommendations: 1. As the only VFR flight instrument, highly recommend. 2. If you need backup VFR or IFR instruments, highly recommend. 3. If you use it as primary IFR instruments, without back up, do not recommend. 4. If you want to impress all of your buddies with Gee Whiz, High Speed, Teflon Coated instrument, highly recommend. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:26:48 PM PST US From: "Donald Mei" Subject: RV-List: Xcom Saga --> RV-List message posted by: "Donald Mei" I think what this whole saga shows is that there are plusses and minuses in dealing with a very small company vs a large company Small Company (Xcom Radio): Personalized service Inconsistent service (If the one guy is gone for legitimate reasons, you have no support) Knowledgible assistance All the institutional knowledge resides in 1 guys head. flexible warranty/service policy Large Company (Upsat SL 40, I can't bring myself to say Garmin) Impersonal Service Consistent service Only routed to as knowledgible a person as is necessary. Many people can help. inflexible service policy Don ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:46 PM PST US From: Kathleen@rv7.us Subject: RE: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us Bob, These are the kinds of "reports" that really add value to this list, especially for those of us who are still in the decision making stage of panel design. Thanks for taking the time share your opinions and support your findings. Do not archive Kathleen Evans www.rv7.us -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Bob Review of DYNON D-10 When I was installing the Dynon I made numerous updates on the progress. Now that I have installed the system into my A/C and have been flying with it for over a year, I thought I would share a few of my observations and OPINIONS on the system. Airspeed and Altitude works very well, but I have a RMI MicroEncoder and use that for AS, ALT and VSI. Dynon is hard to read and impossible for me to find the VSI when inverted, numbers are too small. Turn and Bank indicator. I do understand how in theory this is suppose to work, I have yet been able to functionally use it, it seems way too sensitive or maybe the RV is way too sensitive. Artificial Horizon. Really cool when it works (which is 97% of the time), but I have had it drift off during long cross countries. If I had been in the clouds I would have been in a slow turn. Occasionally it has been off as much as 10 degrees. I do not have sufficient confidence in it to use it in IMC. Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I can not believe what a painful process calibrating the magnetic system is. You must download info from the web and a program from Dynon and then connect your computer/laptop to the Dynon and download to it. Pretty easy if you have access to a laptop and know what you are doing, for me it is not worth the effort. Also if you don't know your geographic DIP angle, go search the WWW. G-Meter. Works ok, but too small to be seen during acrobatics. I do have a normal G-meter and use it for Akro. Volt meter. Works well but it is also duplicated on my Grand Rapids Technologies Engine Monitor. I do not use the volt meter on the DYNON. Visual tapes for Airspeed and Altimeter. Really neat, easy to convince FAA inspector that I have placarded the Airspeeds as required, but in reality I have never looked at it inflight. Clock, I like this feature best, I use it for flight time for my pilot logbook. Engine monitor records all engine and airframe time. In my case I basically have a $2000 digital clock, the only thing on the Dynon that I routinely use in flight. Reliability. Absolutely no problems with this unit at all. I have thought about adding the AOA, but I wouldn't use it. I know this has been debated off and on, but I know my RV well enough to tell what the AOA is without the instrument. If I flew underpowered and over gross, out of short grass strips with the 50 foot tree, I would have more desire for an accurate AOA instrument. I consider my RV very light and overpowered and most of my flying is out of a 150 foot by 7000 foot paved runway. Overall it is a real neat fun gadget. I love the way you can dim it at night, too cool. But, I bought the system hoping that I could eliminate conventional gyros for IFR flight. Because it does drift, I do not have any confidence in it for IMC. In my case the MicroEncoder makes the Dynon totally superfluous for VFR flight. Bottom line, if it ever breaks or fails, I will probably not fix it or replace in kind! Recommendations: 1. As the only VFR flight instrument, highly recommend. 2. If you need backup VFR or IFR instruments, highly recommend. 3. If you use it as primary IFR instruments, without back up, do not recommend. 4. If you want to impress all of your buddies with Gee Whiz, High Speed, Teflon Coated instrument, highly recommend. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:14:18 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu From: Larry Pardue --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue On 10/20/04 3:00 PM, "Bob" wrote: > > Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real > pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I > could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather > and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading > indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I know I have pointed this out on the list a number of times, but I keep seeing it pop up. Commonly used aviation GPS units are utterly incapable of displaying any sort of heading information at all, much less accurate heading information. Apparently many people think the distinction between heading and track is without importance. I disagree. When you commonly fly in winds like the 30 knots LOE4 participants experienced last weekend, you notice the difference right away. Track is great for navigation but not good at all for things like ATC assigned headings. I recently installed a D10A and am getting pretty good heading information without the external sensor, it is certainly giving me better heading information than my GPS. I plan to further fine tune. I agree the calibration routine is a "real pain" but I have done it several times now and have it down to about 20 minutes. That is after I picked north and south points I could use to visually aim at on the ground. I found the air portion is the trickiest, since I no longer have a vacuum heading indicator. By picking north and south reference points far away, on the horizon, and using the angle difference to section lines, I found it to be doable. After the basic calibration, it is possible to fine tune by adjusting the whole system a fixed number of degrees + or -. In my case this has allowed me to reduce the error. I have also not yet decided if I trust this unit for IFR flight. I have not had any deviations yet that would have caused a problem, but it will drift off noticeably in pitch and bank, and pitch, bank, heading and even the slip/skid ball are sometimes a bit jittery. Certainly different than the ultra stability of the spinning mechanical gyros. We'll see. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:32 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Bob, Thanks so much for the objective review. My primary reason for wanting the Dynon is for a horizon in case of accidental flight into IMC, but based on the errors I've read about it seems to be a bit unreliable. I also love acro flight so I wanted the g-meter, but you say it's too small to use. Let me ask you, if you could do it over would an electric horizon gyro do the trick instead? Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > > Review of DYNON D-10 > > When I was installing the Dynon I made numerous updates on the > progress. Now that I have installed the system into my A/C and have been > flying with it for over a year, I thought I would share a few of my > observations and OPINIONS on the system. > > Airspeed and Altitude works very well, but I have a RMI MicroEncoder and > use that for AS, ALT and VSI. Dynon is hard to read and impossible for me > to find the VSI when inverted, numbers are too small. > > Turn and Bank indicator. I do understand how in theory this is suppose to > work, I have yet been able to functionally use it, it seems way too > sensitive or maybe the RV is way too sensitive. > > Artificial Horizon. Really cool when it works (which is 97% of the time), > but I have had it drift off during long cross countries. If I had been in > the clouds I would have been in a slow turn. Occasionally it has been off > as much as 10 degrees. I do not have sufficient confidence in it to use it > in IMC. > > Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real > pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I > could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather > and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading > indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I can not > believe what a painful process calibrating the magnetic system is. You > must download info from the web and a program from Dynon and then connect > your computer/laptop to the Dynon and download to it. Pretty easy if you > have access to a laptop and know what you are doing, for me it is not worth > the effort. Also if you don't know your geographic DIP angle, go search > the WWW. > > G-Meter. Works ok, but too small to be seen during acrobatics. I do have > a normal G-meter and use it for Akro. > > Volt meter. Works well but it is also duplicated on my Grand Rapids > Technologies Engine Monitor. I do not use the volt meter on the DYNON. > > Visual tapes for Airspeed and Altimeter. Really neat, easy to convince FAA > inspector that I have placarded the Airspeeds as required, but in reality I > have never looked at it inflight. > > Clock, I like this feature best, I use it for flight time for my pilot > logbook. Engine monitor records all engine and airframe time. In my case > I basically have a $2000 digital clock, the only thing on the Dynon that I > routinely use in flight. > > Reliability. Absolutely no problems with this unit at all. > > I have thought about adding the AOA, but I wouldn't use it. I know this > has been debated off and on, but I know my RV well enough to tell what the > AOA is without the instrument. If I flew underpowered and over gross, out > of short grass strips with the 50 foot tree, I would have more desire for > an accurate AOA instrument. I consider my RV very light and overpowered > and most of my flying is out of a 150 foot by 7000 foot paved runway. > > Overall it is a real neat fun gadget. I love the way you can dim it at > night, too cool. But, I bought the system hoping that I could eliminate > conventional gyros for IFR flight. Because it does drift, I do not have > any confidence in it for IMC. In my case the MicroEncoder makes the > Dynon totally superfluous for VFR flight. Bottom line, if it ever breaks > or fails, I will probably not fix it or replace in kind! > > Recommendations: > 1. As the only VFR flight instrument, highly recommend. > 2. If you need backup VFR or IFR instruments, highly recommend. > 3. If you use it as primary IFR instruments, without back up, do not > recommend. > 4. If you want to impress all of your buddies with Gee Whiz, High Speed, > Teflon Coated instrument, highly recommend. > > > Bob > RV6 NightFighter > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:18 PM PST US From: Richard Scott Subject: RV-List: Re: Rivet squeezer --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott First, after a little practice, you learn to get close with guessing. Then when it is adjusted right, screw it all the way in, counting the number of turns. Write that on a piece of paper & stick it in with the rivets you are working from, or write it on whatever you keep them in. Next time, run it all the way closed, back off the specified number of turns & you will be right on or real close the first try, every time. Richard Scott 9A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:57 PM PST US From: Jim Streit Subject: Re: RV-List: Heat Muff Parts --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit Try Vans Sounds like the same heat muff that Vans sells. Jim Streit 90073 Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy list- > >Anyone know where to get replacement parts for the heat muff Vetterman sends >with his standard crossover systems? I lost one of the rods with the threaded >ends that holds the end pieces together. I tried Vetterman but he's still >not home from LOE. > >Thanks! > >Mark do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:25:03 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" At the risk of sounding really stupid, isn't track info what we really want anyway? It seems to me that the reason we have historically used heading is because all we've ever had is compasses and that's all they're capable of. When ATC tells me to fly heading 180, I'm sure they mean to fly due south, not point the spinner due south. If I'm missing something (and it's VERY possible) please let me know. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue > > On 10/20/04 3:00 PM, "Bob" wrote: > > > > > > Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real > > pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I > > could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather > > and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading > > indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. > > I know I have pointed this out on the list a number of times, but I keep > seeing it pop up. Commonly used aviation GPS units are utterly incapable of > displaying any sort of heading information at all, much less accurate > heading information. Apparently many people think the distinction between > heading and track is without importance. I disagree. When you commonly fly > in winds like the 30 knots LOE4 participants experienced last weekend, you > notice the difference right away. Track is great for navigation but not > good at all for things like ATC assigned headings. > > I recently installed a D10A and am getting pretty good heading information > without the external sensor, it is certainly giving me better heading > information than my GPS. I plan to further fine tune. I agree the > calibration routine is a "real pain" but I have done it several times now > and have it down to about 20 minutes. That is after I picked north and > south points I could use to visually aim at on the ground. I found the air > portion is the trickiest, since I no longer have a vacuum heading indicator. > By picking north and south reference points far away, on the horizon, and > using the angle difference to section lines, I found it to be doable. After > the basic calibration, it is possible to fine tune by adjusting the whole > system a fixed number of degrees + or -. In my case this has allowed me to > reduce the error. > > I have also not yet decided if I trust this unit for IFR flight. I have not > had any deviations yet that would have caused a problem, but it will drift > off noticeably in pitch and bank, and pitch, bank, heading and even the > slip/skid ball are sometimes a bit jittery. Certainly different than the > ultra stability of the spinning mechanical gyros. > > We'll see. > > Larry Pardue > Carlsbad, NM > > RV-6 N441LP Flying > http://n5lp.net > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:32 PM PST US From: Bluecavu@aol.com Subject: RV-List: (no subject) --> RV-List message posted by: Bluecavu@aol.com Anyone know of any people with RV's based in Northern NJ - CDW, N07, TEB, or MMU? May God pity the soul of the person who has to operate a recip single out of TEB... land of the bizjet logjams... the one, the only (thank God) Teterhole! do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:38:24 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Larry Pardue wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue > > On 10/20/04 3:00 PM, "Bob" wrote: > > > >>Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real >>pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration ( I >>could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather >>and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading >>indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. > > > I know I have pointed this out on the list a number of times, but I keep > seeing it pop up. Commonly used aviation GPS units are utterly incapable of > displaying any sort of heading information at all, much less accurate > heading information. Apparently many people think the distinction between > heading and track is without importance. I disagree. When you commonly fly > in winds like the 30 knots LOE4 participants experienced last weekend, you > notice the difference right away. Track is great for navigation but not > good at all for things like ATC assigned headings. Larry, I understand what you are saying, but I suspect heading vs track is not as big an issue as some may think. If ATC gives you "fly heading of 270" and you then turn to a *track* of 270, if the track needs to be adjusted ATC will simply request you to "turn 10 degrees left". There seems to be some slack in the requested headings given by ATC since they assume the DG may have precessed a little or (gasp) the pilot may be flying via a GPS track instead of magnetic heading. :-) When flying a localizer, the GPS may be superior to a magnetic indication especially when dealing with crosswinds. The pilot with only a DG has to point the nose off heading in order to correct for the wind whereas the pilot with a GPS can fly the inbound track of the localizer once established. All in all, in my opinion, flying a GPS track instead of a DG heading is not a big deal in the real world. > > I recently installed a D10A and am getting pretty good heading information > without the external sensor, it is certainly giving me better heading > information than my GPS. I plan to further fine tune. I agree the > calibration routine is a "real pain" but I have done it several times now > and have it down to about 20 minutes. That is after I picked north and > south points I could use to visually aim at on the ground. I found the air > portion is the trickiest, since I no longer have a vacuum heading indicator. > By picking north and south reference points far away, on the horizon, and > using the angle difference to section lines, I found it to be doable. After > the basic calibration, it is possible to fine tune by adjusting the whole > system a fixed number of degrees + or -. In my case this has allowed me to > reduce the error. The calibration for the external magnetometer (at least the original version) is MUCH simpler than for the internal mag. There is no calibration required in the air, only a "swing" to the four cardinal points on the ground. The external mag in my RV-6 was easily calibrated in less than ten minutes and is accurate, as far as I can tell (how DO you establish a dead-on magnetic heading in the air???) to a couple of degrees. About the only way I have found to really check the accuracy is while taxiing on a known heading. > > I have also not yet decided if I trust this unit for IFR flight. I have not > had any deviations yet that would have caused a problem, but it will drift > off noticeably in pitch and bank, and pitch, bank, heading and even the > slip/skid ball are sometimes a bit jittery. Certainly different than the > ultra stability of the spinning mechanical gyros. The electronic display of the Dynon is certainly different from a mechanical gyro. It looks different and moves differently. It also has much higher resolution than a mechanical gyro. While it is very difficult to see two degrees deflection with a conventional gyro, two degrees on the Dynon is very noticeable. I see the acclimation to electronic gyros to be similar to that I encountered when transitioning from analog needles to the digits on the uEncoder when I first flew my "instrumentless" RV-6. It is a bit uncomfortable at first, but gradually the brain gets recalibrated. It is imperative that suitable backup instrumentation be in the panel if the decision is made to take any EFIS into the clouds. The form and quantity of backups depends on the experience, background and proficiency of the pilot. The IFR pilot needs to fly solely with the backups frequently to maintain the ability to survive the loss of the EFIS. It is my contention than an autopilot should be in the panel of anyone taking an RV into the clouds, not only for safety but to relieve fatigue. IFR is IFR, whether "soft" or "hard". Either can kill us. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:11 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England There is no reason why the G meter and/or AOA can't be displayed bigger, even full screen in beautiful living color at the operator's option. Why don't you current owners lobby Dynon for a software upgrade that will allow this? (Maybe it will be ready for me by the time I'm ready for it.) :-) Charlie -7 in the oven steve zicree wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >Bob, > >Thanks so much for the objective review. My primary reason for wanting the >Dynon is for a horizon in case of accidental flight into IMC, but based on >the errors I've read about it seems to be a bit unreliable. I also love acro >flight so I wanted the g-meter, but you say it's too small to use. Let me >ask you, if you could do it over would an electric horizon gyro do the trick >instead? > >Steve Zicree > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bob" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Bob >> >>Review of DYNON D-10 >> >>When I was installing the Dynon I made numerous updates on the >>progress. Now that I have installed the system into my A/C and have been >>flying with it for over a year, I thought I would share a few of my >>observations and OPINIONS on the system. >> >>Airspeed and Altitude works very well, but I have a RMI MicroEncoder and >>use that for AS, ALT and VSI. Dynon is hard to read and impossible for me >>to find the VSI when inverted, numbers are too small. >> >>Turn and Bank indicator. I do understand how in theory this is suppose to >>work, I have yet been able to functionally use it, it seems way too >>sensitive or maybe the RV is way too sensitive. >> >>Artificial Horizon. Really cool when it works (which is 97% of the time), >>but I have had it drift off during long cross countries. If I had been in >>the clouds I would have been in a slow turn. Occasionally it has been off >>as much as 10 degrees. I do not have sufficient confidence in it to use >> >> >it > > >>in IMC. >> >>Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real >>pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration >> >> >( I > > >>could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather >>and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading >>indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I can not >>believe what a painful process calibrating the magnetic system is. You >>must download info from the web and a program from Dynon and then connect >>your computer/laptop to the Dynon and download to it. Pretty easy if you >>have access to a laptop and know what you are doing, for me it is not >> >> >worth > > >>the effort. Also if you don't know your geographic DIP angle, go search >>the WWW. >> >>G-Meter. Works ok, but too small to be seen during acrobatics. I do have >>a normal G-meter and use it for Akro. >> >>Volt meter. Works well but it is also duplicated on my Grand Rapids >>Technologies Engine Monitor. I do not use the volt meter on the DYNON. >> >>Visual tapes for Airspeed and Altimeter. Really neat, easy to convince >> >> >FAA > > >>inspector that I have placarded the Airspeeds as required, but in reality >> >> >I > > >>have never looked at it inflight. >> >>Clock, I like this feature best, I use it for flight time for my pilot >>logbook. Engine monitor records all engine and airframe time. In my case >>I basically have a $2000 digital clock, the only thing on the Dynon that I >>routinely use in flight. >> >>Reliability. Absolutely no problems with this unit at all. >> >>I have thought about adding the AOA, but I wouldn't use it. I know this >>has been debated off and on, but I know my RV well enough to tell what the >>AOA is without the instrument. If I flew underpowered and over gross, out >>of short grass strips with the 50 foot tree, I would have more desire for >>an accurate AOA instrument. I consider my RV very light and overpowered >>and most of my flying is out of a 150 foot by 7000 foot paved runway. >> >>Overall it is a real neat fun gadget. I love the way you can dim it at >>night, too cool. But, I bought the system hoping that I could eliminate >>conventional gyros for IFR flight. Because it does drift, I do not have >>any confidence in it for IMC. In my case the MicroEncoder makes the >>Dynon totally superfluous for VFR flight. Bottom line, if it ever breaks >>or fails, I will probably not fix it or replace in kind! >> >>Recommendations: >>1. As the only VFR flight instrument, highly recommend. >>2. If you need backup VFR or IFR instruments, highly recommend. >>3. If you use it as primary IFR instruments, without back up, do not >>recommend. >>4. If you want to impress all of your buddies with Gee Whiz, High Speed, >>Teflon Coated instrument, highly recommend. >> >> >>Bob >>RV6 NightFighter >> ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:37 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > At the risk of sounding really stupid, isn't track info what we really > want > anyway? It seems to me that the reason we have historically used heading > is > because all we've ever had is compasses and that's all they're capable of. > When ATC tells me to fly heading 180, I'm sure they mean to fly due south, > not point the spinner due south. If I'm missing something (and it's VERY > possible) please let me know. > They mean point the spinner due south (magnetic). That is the meaning of heading. Do not archive Larry Pardue ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:03 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I was real excited about the Dynon for my 4 until I started reading about attitude errors. Now I'm beginning to rethink. Let's face it, the whole idea of having the artificial horizon is to take over when our senses fail. If it's no more reliable than my inner ear, then why would I buy it? Imagine being in hard IMC and not knowing for sure if your indicated bank was off by 10 degrees! Compound this situation with the fact that while this is happening your senses are telling you stuff that may or may not agree with the Dynon. The errors I've read of have occured in VMC, so the pilot seemed pretty relaxed about the situation. Had they occured in the soup, the pilot might not have even known about it, or worse yet the NTSB might be trying to figure it out instead of us. I sure don't want to offend anyone who owns one, and I know they will eventually sort all this out, but I think we should all face the fact that pitch/bank errors in an attitude instrument are far more serious than small display characters. Steve Zicree RV4 Finishing kit arrived today, lotsa fiberglass : ( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie England" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England > > There is no reason why the G meter and/or AOA can't be displayed bigger, > even full screen in beautiful living color at the operator's option. Why > don't you current owners lobby Dynon for a software upgrade that will > allow this? (Maybe it will be ready for me by the time I'm ready for > it.) :-) > > Charlie > -7 in the oven > > > steve zicree wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > >Bob, > > > >Thanks so much for the objective review. My primary reason for wanting the > >Dynon is for a horizon in case of accidental flight into IMC, but based on > >the errors I've read about it seems to be a bit unreliable. I also love acro > >flight so I wanted the g-meter, but you say it's too small to use. Let me > >ask you, if you could do it over would an electric horizon gyro do the trick > >instead? > > > >Steve Zicree > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Bob" > >To: > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > > > > > > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Bob > >> > >>Review of DYNON D-10 > >> > >>When I was installing the Dynon I made numerous updates on the > >>progress. Now that I have installed the system into my A/C and have been > >>flying with it for over a year, I thought I would share a few of my > >>observations and OPINIONS on the system. > >> > >>Airspeed and Altitude works very well, but I have a RMI MicroEncoder and > >>use that for AS, ALT and VSI. Dynon is hard to read and impossible for me > >>to find the VSI when inverted, numbers are too small. > >> > >>Turn and Bank indicator. I do understand how in theory this is suppose to > >>work, I have yet been able to functionally use it, it seems way too > >>sensitive or maybe the RV is way too sensitive. > >> > >>Artificial Horizon. Really cool when it works (which is 97% of the time), > >>but I have had it drift off during long cross countries. If I had been in > >>the clouds I would have been in a slow turn. Occasionally it has been off > >>as much as 10 degrees. I do not have sufficient confidence in it to use > >> > >> > >it > > > > > >>in IMC. > >> > >>Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real > >>pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration > >> > >> > >( I > > > > > >>could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the weather > >>and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the heading > >>indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. I can not > >>believe what a painful process calibrating the magnetic system is. You > >>must download info from the web and a program from Dynon and then connect > >>your computer/laptop to the Dynon and download to it. Pretty easy if you > >>have access to a laptop and know what you are doing, for me it is not > >> > >> > >worth > > > > > >>the effort. Also if you don't know your geographic DIP angle, go search > >>the WWW. > >> > >>G-Meter. Works ok, but too small to be seen during acrobatics. I do have > >>a normal G-meter and use it for Akro. > >> > >>Volt meter. Works well but it is also duplicated on my Grand Rapids > >>Technologies Engine Monitor. I do not use the volt meter on the DYNON. > >> > >>Visual tapes for Airspeed and Altimeter. Really neat, easy to convince > >> > >> > >FAA > > > > > >>inspector that I have placarded the Airspeeds as required, but in reality > >> > >> > >I > > > > > >>have never looked at it inflight. > >> > >>Clock, I like this feature best, I use it for flight time for my pilot > >>logbook. Engine monitor records all engine and airframe time. In my case > >>I basically have a $2000 digital clock, the only thing on the Dynon that I > >>routinely use in flight. > >> > >>Reliability. Absolutely no problems with this unit at all. > >> > >>I have thought about adding the AOA, but I wouldn't use it. I know this > >>has been debated off and on, but I know my RV well enough to tell what the > >>AOA is without the instrument. If I flew underpowered and over gross, out > >>of short grass strips with the 50 foot tree, I would have more desire for > >>an accurate AOA instrument. I consider my RV very light and overpowered > >>and most of my flying is out of a 150 foot by 7000 foot paved runway. > >> > >>Overall it is a real neat fun gadget. I love the way you can dim it at > >>night, too cool. But, I bought the system hoping that I could eliminate > >>conventional gyros for IFR flight. Because it does drift, I do not have > >>any confidence in it for IMC. In my case the MicroEncoder makes the > >>Dynon totally superfluous for VFR flight. Bottom line, if it ever breaks > >>or fails, I will probably not fix it or replace in kind! > >> > >>Recommendations: > >>1. As the only VFR flight instrument, highly recommend. > >>2. If you need backup VFR or IFR instruments, highly recommend. > >>3. If you use it as primary IFR instruments, without back up, do not > >>recommend. > >>4. If you want to impress all of your buddies with Gee Whiz, High Speed, > >>Teflon Coated instrument, highly recommend. > >> > >> > >>Bob > >>RV6 NightFighter > >> > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 05:00:11 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I'm aware that the ATC instruction means to point the plane south and that's how I've always done it, but isn't their DESIRE to actually get me to track south? Of course, they can't ask me to do that because I'm using a compass. Now, if they ask me to fly heading 180 and, because of wind, my track deviates significantly from 180 they're just going to give me an adjusted heading anyway. I guess my point was that the system of assigned headings is sort of antiquated in light of the GPS. I'm guessing that at some point in the future we might just dispense with heading altogether and just think in terms of track. However, for now I'll point my "spinner" where I'm told. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > At the risk of sounding really stupid, isn't track info what we really > > want > > anyway? It seems to me that the reason we have historically used heading > > is > > because all we've ever had is compasses and that's all they're capable of. > > When ATC tells me to fly heading 180, I'm sure they mean to fly due south, > > not point the spinner due south. If I'm missing something (and it's VERY > > possible) please let me know. > > > > They mean point the spinner due south (magnetic). That is the meaning of > heading. > > Do not archive > > Larry Pardue > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:36 PM PST US From: "Emrath" Subject: RV-List: FW: Mounting of Bendix Fuel Servo --> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" I'm reposting my reply from the other day because I've not received a response to this. Surely someone has "gone there" before me and could answer some of my questions.......please. If you have this set up and don't have pictures, please email me your phone number and I'll call you. Do not archive Marty -----Original Message----- From: Emrath [mailto:emrath@comcast.net] Subject: Mounting of Bendix Fuel Servo Does anyone have some pictures of their Vertical mounting of a Bendix F.I. Servo on the bottom of the sump as well as some shots of how they did their FAB? Could also use some picture of the fuel line runs, from firewall to engine pump, to fuel servo to distributor (mine is already mounted and lines to cylinders installed. I am finally to that point and could use a few pictures, as they are worth a thousand words. Thanks, just sent them directly to me or point me to a web site. Marty in Brentwood TN ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 06:38:44 PM PST US From: "Jerry Hansen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Hansen" If you have a GPS coupled autopilot capable of tracking a GPS course, this conundrum is easily resolved. Just adjust the autopilot course until the DG or compass shows the proper heading and let it fly that course (which, in a crosswind, will be different than the displayed heading). It's even easier if your autopilot has what is variously called "Pilot Command Steering" or "Control Wheel Steering". In this case, you just press the autopilot release button and manually fly the aircraft to the proper heading and release the button. The autopilot will then fly the new course, which has been derived from pointing the airplane toward the desired heading. That might sound a bit confusing, but it's really quite easy when you've done it a couple of times. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I'm aware that the ATC instruction means to point the plane south and that's how I've always done it, but isn't their DESIRE to actually get me to track south? Of course, they can't ask me to do that because I'm using a compass. Now, if they ask me to fly heading 180 and, because of wind, my track deviates significantly from 180 they're just going to give me an adjusted heading anyway. I guess my point was that the system of assigned headings is sort of antiquated in light of the GPS. I'm guessing that at some point in the future we might just dispense with heading altogether and just think in terms of track. However, for now I'll point my "spinner" where I'm told. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > At the risk of sounding really stupid, isn't track info what we really > > want > > anyway? It seems to me that the reason we have historically used heading > > is > > because all we've ever had is compasses and that's all they're capable of. > > When ATC tells me to fly heading 180, I'm sure they mean to fly due south, > > not point the spinner due south. If I'm missing something (and it's VERY > > possible) please let me know. > > > > They mean point the spinner due south (magnetic). That is the meaning of > heading. > > Do not archive > > Larry Pardue > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:43 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan steve zicree wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > I was real excited about the Dynon for my 4 until I started reading about > attitude errors. Now I'm beginning to rethink. Let's face it, the whole idea > of having the artificial horizon is to take over when our senses fail. If > it's no more reliable than my inner ear, then why would I buy it? Imagine > being in hard IMC and not knowing for sure if your indicated bank was off by > 10 degrees! This reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the more vocal reporters of Dynon's glitches. He also stated the concerns you have but I reminded him that having an EFIS does not relieve the pilot of maintaining a proper instrument scan!!!!!!! When I have seen my Dynon leaning about five degrees, a quick glance at the heading tape instantly told me whether the AHRS was having a bad day or the plane was actually banking. If the horizon tilts a little and the heading tape is stable, it is an AHRS error. If the heading tape is gradually scrolling the same direction, the AHRS is correct and the plane is turning. If the heading tape is scrolling the opposite direction...........it is time to check the backup instruments! Having a fancy piece of glass in the panel doesn't mean that we now can become zombies with no situational awareness. *ALL* the indications in the EFIS display need to be constantly compared to make sure nothing crazy in happening in the electronics. This means airspeed is compared to VSI and altitude, and heading is compared to the horizon......all the time! The individual with whom I had the conversation admitted he had never considered the need to scan the various components of the Dynon in order to sort out possible errors. Compound this situation with the fact that while this is > happening your senses are telling you stuff that may or may not agree with > the Dynon. The errors I've read of have occured in VMC, so the pilot seemed > pretty relaxed about the situation. Had they occured in the soup, the pilot > might not have even known about it, Not if a proper scan was used! And if in IMC, the backup instruments better be in the scan, too. An EFIS means the pilot has to be a smarter pilot, not a lazier pilot.........the ground is just as hard and unforgiving regardless of what kind of instruments grace the panel. Rant off............ Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:52 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" All, I have flown my D-10 for over a year now. I fly mine IFR. What some would call "hard IFR" but I agree with the statement, IFR is IFR. The Dynon is not perfect. Neither is a Vacuum Gyro. Anyone who is flying IFR in an RV should be pretty current. The Dynon makes it easier. My Dynon get the wobbles every now and then, but I have never seen an excursion on mine that would preclude me from keeping my airplane right side up. For VMC a Dynon is all you need. But NO ONE SHOULD FLY IMC without backup to the Dynon. Airspeed, altitude, and a turn and bank, better yet turn & bank autopilot as a minimum. On the subject of autopilots, I have said for years, here and in other venues, that anyone who was unwilling to fly IFR without an autopilot should not be flying IFR. After a year and a half of IFR RV flying, I have tempered my tone. I would have to think long and hard about flying my RV IFR without the A/P If it was a "clear above" operation maybe, but I would not want to fly for 2+30 IMC and then shoot an approach in an RV without an Autopilot...... I think the Dynon is a great device and I am sure it will get better, but I am satisified with mine, And when (not if) you have an Vacuum problem IMC, a weeks wages says you would never fly without a Dynon again. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:10 PM PST US From: "Scott Jackson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" YOu bring up a good point, and one that Boeing considered way back in the design of the 767, which raised the bar very high in the man/machine relationship, and one could tell that they'd consulted the right people( and paid attention to them) in every aspect of its design. The electronic nav display on the 767 has "track up", meaning track is always what's under the lubber line at the twelve o'clock position on the compass rose. Like most pilots, I wondered how hard it would be to adapt to the new orientation, but my concerns were for naught. Within a couple of minutes of first exposure, everyone was completely sold on the display. It became so obvious that heading had forever been just a trial-and-error method to get a desired ground track, and, now that we knew what the track was, the actual heading quickly became irrelevant. The only change that required an adjustment for us was when we were holding a vector, in that we had to watch both the heading bug and now the heading indicator, which could be either directly under, or either side, of the lubber line depending on drift angle. Crossing a 200+ knot jetstream at altitude, the heading indicator would be almost off the screen to the side. The other adjustment was remembering to adjust the picture of where the runway would be due to drift angle when breaking out on a low-viz approach. Interestingly, in airline operations, the next move is to True instead of Magnetic, and the same historical reference you make is relevant here,too. We've always used magnetic, because it was all we could sense. Over the ocean, where we running from Latitude to Latitude, we used to have to apply variation to the desired true direction, and it could be quite large and rapidly changing as we traversed the meridians of Longitude.For example, if we were tracking from 50North to 50North, the true would of course be either 090 or 270-ignoring convergence-but our desired magnetic direction could be 20 degrees or more either side of that depending on variation. Your position is correct: if we know our track, then the heading becomes irrelevant, and if we know it in True, then eventually the magnetic value will also be irrelevant. Even if we can display True Track, runway headings on SIDS, etc., remain magnetic headings except way up North. Scott in Vancouver ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > At the risk of sounding really stupid, isn't track info what we really > want > anyway? It seems to me that the reason we have historically used heading > is > because all we've ever had is compasses and that's all they're capable of. > When ATC tells me to fly heading 180, I'm sure they mean to fly due south, > not point the spinner due south. If I'm missing something (and it's VERY > possible) please let me know. > > Steve Zicree > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Pardue" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue >> >> On 10/20/04 3:00 PM, "Bob" wrote: >> >> >> > >> > Magnetic heading, I did install the remote sensor, and that was a real >> > pain. I have yet to get a laptop computer to do all of the calibration > ( I >> > could borrow one, but coordinating the loan of the computer, the >> > weather >> > and when I am available is too hard to do). So I do not use the >> > heading >> > indicator. Anyway, I doubt it would be as accurate as the GPS. >> >> I know I have pointed this out on the list a number of times, but I keep >> seeing it pop up. Commonly used aviation GPS units are utterly incapable > of >> displaying any sort of heading information at all, much less accurate >> heading information. Apparently many people think the distinction >> between >> heading and track is without importance. I disagree. When you commonly > fly >> in winds like the 30 knots LOE4 participants experienced last weekend, >> you >> notice the difference right away. Track is great for navigation but not >> good at all for things like ATC assigned headings. >> >> I recently installed a D10A and am getting pretty good heading >> information >> without the external sensor, it is certainly giving me better heading >> information than my GPS. I plan to further fine tune. I agree the >> calibration routine is a "real pain" but I have done it several times now >> and have it down to about 20 minutes. That is after I picked north and >> south points I could use to visually aim at on the ground. I found the > air >> portion is the trickiest, since I no longer have a vacuum heading > indicator. >> By picking north and south reference points far away, on the horizon, and >> using the angle difference to section lines, I found it to be doable. > After >> the basic calibration, it is possible to fine tune by adjusting the whole >> system a fixed number of degrees + or -. In my case this has allowed me > to >> reduce the error. >> >> I have also not yet decided if I trust this unit for IFR flight. I have > not >> had any deviations yet that would have caused a problem, but it will >> drift >> off noticeably in pitch and bank, and pitch, bank, heading and even the >> slip/skid ball are sometimes a bit jittery. Certainly different than the >> ultra stability of the spinning mechanical gyros. >> >> We'll see. >> >> Larry Pardue >> Carlsbad, NM >> >> RV-6 N441LP Flying >> http://n5lp.net >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:49 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan vansairforce@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: Grand Canyon airspace --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan Here is info about a superb web site that details the airspace around Grand Canyon National Park. Sam Buchanan =============================== -------- Original Message -------- Subject: http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/west_trip.html From: Michael_Ebersole@nps.gov Dear Mr. Buchanan: I just read about your trip out west in February 2000 and it sounded like a marvelous adventure. In case it helps in the future, I wanted to let you know that a new website was launched this year that helps explain how to navigate the Grand Canyon airspace http://www.grandcanyonairspace.iat.gov Sincerely, Michael J. Ebersole Grand Canyon National Park Website: www.nps.gov/grca ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:53 PM PST US From: Jeff Bertsch Subject: RV-List: Innovative Intake --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Bertsch The ram air intake on our RV4 works very well, however, I believe that it is way too large -- 5 inch diameter opening, 7 inch outside diameter. The drag reduction penalty is too large for the gain in manifold pressure. So I would like to redesign the intake. It has an Airflow Performance fuel injection with a forward facing ram intake. I like the Van's design that has an intake filter in the baffling just forward of the #4 cylinder, but after close inspection, I don't believe there is enough room in our tightly cowled RV4 to do that. There is only about 3 inches of baffling available (compared to about 5 - 6 inches in the RV8), and the cowling cheek rakes back at a steep angle, leaving no room for an airbox or even a simple duct. I don't believe the standard lower scoop and airbox will work with this Airflow Performance intake. So what do you suggest? Does anyone have any innovative intake designs for this configuration - RV-4, Airflow Performance, very tight cowl. Here is a link to some pictures of the cowling and our RV-4. Note that the link is longer than one line so may need to cut and past. http://www.cartogra.com/servlet/com.hp.HPGuestLogin?username=mach25&password=83485262 Thanks for your expertise Jeff Bertsch www.lonestarsquadron.com --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:53:37 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Again, I didn't mean to say the Dynon is a bad idea, I just think that an attitude instrument should be a bit more robust. Suppose you bought an R.C. Allen electric gyro and found that it lied by 10 degrees in pitch and/or bank whenever it felt like it. I think most of us would take it back and bitch up a storm if they didn't take care of it. Bear in mind that the Dynon website and other advertising makes no mention of these problems even though they seem to be fairly common. You're 100% right about proper scan technique and having backups, but I want an attitude indicator to possibly save my butt if for some crazy unforeseen reason I fly into IMC. Now many will say that there's no excuse for a VFR pilot doing that, but we all know it happens to people all the time and I refuse to believe that they're all idiots. For my intended use, I'm just trying to decide whether a Dynon makes sense, or should I spend the money on a good electric gyro. I guess I sort of look at it like a fire extinguisher; unlikely I'll need it, but if I do, I want it to work perfectly. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Review of Dynon D-10 on opie.wvnet.edu > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > steve zicree wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > I was real excited about the Dynon for my 4 until I started reading about > > attitude errors. Now I'm beginning to rethink. Let's face it, the whole idea > > of having the artificial horizon is to take over when our senses fail. If > > it's no more reliable than my inner ear, then why would I buy it? Imagine > > being in hard IMC and not knowing for sure if your indicated bank was off by > > 10 degrees! > > This reminds me of a conversation I had with one of the more vocal > reporters of Dynon's glitches. He also stated the concerns you have but > I reminded him that having an EFIS does not relieve the pilot of > maintaining a proper instrument scan!!!!!!! > > When I have seen my Dynon leaning about five degrees, a quick glance at > the heading tape instantly told me whether the AHRS was having a bad day > or the plane was actually banking. If the horizon tilts a little and the > heading tape is stable, it is an AHRS error. If the heading tape is > gradually scrolling the same direction, the AHRS is correct and the > plane is turning. If the heading tape is scrolling the opposite > direction...........it is time to check the backup instruments! > > Having a fancy piece of glass in the panel doesn't mean that we now can > become zombies with no situational awareness. *ALL* the indications in > the EFIS display need to be constantly compared to make sure nothing > crazy in happening in the electronics. This means airspeed is compared > to VSI and altitude, and heading is compared to the horizon......all the > time! > > The individual with whom I had the conversation admitted he had never > considered the need to scan the various components of the Dynon in order > to sort out possible errors. > > Compound this situation with the fact that while this is > > happening your senses are telling you stuff that may or may not agree with > > the Dynon. The errors I've read of have occured in VMC, so the pilot seemed > > pretty relaxed about the situation. Had they occured in the soup, the pilot > > might not have even known about it, > > Not if a proper scan was used! And if in IMC, the backup instruments > better be in the scan, too. > > An EFIS means the pilot has to be a smarter pilot, not a lazier > pilot.........the ground is just as hard and unforgiving regardless of > what kind of instruments grace the panel. > > Rant off............ > > Sam Buchanan > >