Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning etc. (GMC)
2. 02:28 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning etc. on opie.wvnet.edu (Bob 1)
3. 02:38 AM - Re: Canopy Open In FLight (Bob 1)
4. 02:44 AM - The List Fund Raiser - Great Gifts! (Matt Dralle)
5. 03:47 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning etc. ()
6. 03:50 AM - Re: Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Bob 1)
7. 04:28 AM - Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
8. 04:31 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning etc. (Larry Bowen)
9. 04:40 AM - Re: Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs (Jeff Dowling)
10. 05:00 AM - Re: Stall warning etc. (Jeff Dowling)
11. 05:01 AM - Re: Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range (Jerry Calvert)
12. 05:11 AM - Re: Canopy Open In FLight on opie.wvnet.edu clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Jeff Dowling)
13. 05:12 AM - Re: AOA (Jeff Dowling)
14. 05:18 AM - Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range (PGLong@aol.com)
15. 05:41 AM - Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
16. 06:06 AM - Re: Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com)
17. 06:10 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning etc. (Bob 1)
18. 06:11 AM - Re: AOA (Sam Buchanan)
19. 06:25 AM - Re: [Team RV] Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute (James E. Clark)
20. 06:47 AM - Re: inverted oil (Glen Matejcek)
21. 07:35 AM - Re: Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on (linn walters)
22. 07:35 AM - Re: AOA (Charles Rowbotham)
23. 08:13 AM - Re: AOA (Curt Reimer)
24. 08:22 AM - Re: Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... (David Burton)
25. 08:50 AM - Re: Stall Warnings, etc (John)
26. 08:58 AM - Re: Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range (RV_8 Pilot)
27. 09:15 AM - Re: Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (steve zicree)
28. 09:33 AM - Re: AOA (RV_8 Pilot)
29. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Scott Bilinski)
30. 09:44 AM - Re: Prop cable (Jerry Grimmonpre)
31. 10:32 AM - Re: Canopy Open In FLight (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR)
32. 10:44 AM - Re: Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Bob 1)
33. 10:45 AM - Re: Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... (Larry Bowen)
34. 10:58 AM - Re: Re: Canopy Open In FLight (Bob 1)
35. 11:31 AM - Stall Horn (Mickey Coggins)
36. 12:04 PM - Re: Re: RV-Listt: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems (Neil McLeod)
37. 12:20 PM - Attaching the emp. tips (David Fenstermacher)
38. 12:23 PM - Re: Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs (Maureen & Bob Christensen)
39. 12:31 PM - Re: Prop cable (Don Mack)
40. 01:22 PM - CH Products Control Stick Switches Electrical Specifications (Richard Tasker)
41. 01:51 PM - Re: CH Products Control Stick Switches Electrical Specifications (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
42. 02:58 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Jim Oke)
43. 03:34 PM - Re: Prop cable ()
44. 06:09 PM - Re: AOA (Jerry Springer)
45. 07:48 PM - tools for sale (William Davis)
46. 08:29 PM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (GMC)
47. 08:56 PM - AOA (Michael Robbins)
48. 09:00 PM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (David Fenstermacher)
49. 09:13 PM - Wiring for 2 Comms - no audio panel (dag adamson)
50. 09:29 PM - Re: Wiring for 2 Comms - no audio panel (linn walters)
51. 09:35 PM - Re: Canopy Open In FLight (DejaVu)
52. 09:38 PM - Re: AOA (Dave Bristol)
53. 10:06 PM - Re: AOA (Scott VanArtsdalen)
54. 10:06 PM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (steve zicree)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Stall Warning & AOA
What really amazes me about this discussion is how many highly experienced
pilots with two lifetimes of experience tend to belittle the addition of a
safety device that can be added for as little as twenty dollars. Really
gentlemen, there are low time pilots reading your comments and you may
dissuade them from having an item in their aircraft that "may" increase the
safety level for those who do not "fly enough".
I will not go into my thoughts about selling the aircraft to a lower time
pilot, or allowing someone else to fly your aircraft.
Instead, I will just congratulate those who actually do "fly enough" to have
a "good feel for their aircraft" and diligently practice, while stressed,
emergency returns or diversions to a airport with a rough running engine or
some other emergency, overshooting their turn to final in a stiff crosswind
and throwing in simulated wind-shear - well done guys!!
George in Langley
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. on opie.wvnet.edu |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> Please don't take this as a flame, but I earn a living in high risk
sports,
> and the safety nuts are always telling me if only............(fill in the
> blank) no one would ever get hurt/killed etc. My response is if no one
> ever flew an airplane, no one would ever die in an airplane crash. How
> many people died in stall spin crashes in the year 1640! My point
exactly!!!
> Bob
> RV6 NightFighter
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I have over half a century of flight.
Much of it was considered high risk.
A couple of observations....
1. Statistics will prove whatever the speaker wants them to prove.
2. For the most part, we are either speaking to the choir or we are not.
Kinda' like religion and/or politics. <g>
Bob - RV3 driver and ex crop duster
Do not archive
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Open In FLight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
> Hi tech solution. I keep a bright yellow cloth pin on my throttle anytime
> the canopy is open. Once Im ready to go, I remove it from the throttle
> cable and place it on the canopy handle. Its worked for me so far. I
would
> have forgetten it a couple times in the beginning. I have a slider by the
> way.
>
> Jeff Dowling
> RV-6A, N915JD
> 140 hours
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
My RV-3 has a slider.
Not latching it is a non event.
The first order of business ALWAYS is..... FLY THE AIRPLANE.
Those that break this rule can perish or ruin a perfectly good airplane.
Bob - soloed 1954
Do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | The List Fund Raiser - Great Gifts! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that we're well into this year's Email List Fund
Raiser! Response has been great so far and there has been a lot of
interest in the Gift options. Speaking of those Gifts, if you haven't
already checked out the nice selection you owe it to yourself to check them
out. They are once again provided by Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore
www.buildersbooks.com. The gifts this year include the following items:
* List Archive CD
* Aircraft Fuel Tester
* Builder's Logbook
* Mechanic's Toolbox CDROM
* 24 Years of the RVator
* Powerplant Video
* Jeppesen VFR Kneeboard
Won't you make a Contribution today to support the these valuable Email
List Services? Please remember that its YOUR generosity that entirely
supports the continued operation and upgrade of the Lists. That's it - no
ads, no banners, no SPAM, no virus, no pop-up ads - just good clean
fun! Well, that is, with your support of course!
Please take a moment and make a generous Contribution today. It only takes
a minute using the Contribution Web Site where you can use either a Credit
Card, PayPal, or a Personal Check to make your donation.
The URL for the SSL Secure Contribution web site can be found below and
also includes a complete description of this year's awesome gifts:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I'd like to say a special "thank you!" to everyone one who has made
Contribution so far this year!! I really appreciate your generosity!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551
925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email
http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft
do not archive
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: <sears@searnet.com>
> What really amazes me about this discussion is how many highly experienced
> pilots with two lifetimes of experience tend to belittle the addition of a
> safety device that can be added for as little as twenty dollars. Really
> gentlemen, there are low time pilots reading your comments and you may
> dissuade them from having an item in their aircraft that "may" increase
the
> safety level for those who do not "fly enough".
George has a point.
I became a flight advisor because I thought newbies might listen to someone
with a title more quickly than someone with no title. Having owned a C172,
a AA-5A Cheetah, and a RV-6A, I've experienced flight in three perfomance
levels. I use that experience to advise those I know about the handling of
the RV. I strongly suggest training in one before their doing their first
solo flights in one. I even suggest a test pilot to do a maiden flight, if
one is not current enough, has little flight time, etc. However, I must
admit I've encountered one person who didn't listen to a bit of what I said
and went ahead with his maiden flight without further instruction. He was
also very lacking in proficiency. He survived; but, he could just as
easily have been added to the NTSB list. His survival supports the good
flying characteristics of the RV.
Safety in flight starts at the brain. If one doesn't practice good sense,
all of the safety devices in the world will not help those who have them.
That's what we're trying say. The NTSB reports prove that out. There are
thousands of aircraft flying that do not have stall warning devices and
don't crash. There are those that do and crash, anyway.
> I will not go into my thoughts about selling the aircraft to a lower time
> pilot, or allowing someone else to fly your aircraft.
>
I do not allow anyone else to fly my RV, or any other airplane I've owned,
unless I'm in the left seat. I don't see how others can lend their
airplanes out, these days. I'd worry myself sick, if I did that. :-) For
those who do, it's up to them to be sure the pilot borrowing the airplane is
up to the task. I wouldn't even think about letting anyone fly my RV
without his/her having had plenty of experience in one. In fact, I'd prefer
that person to have more experience in them than I do. Maybe that's
selfish; but, I'm the one who has to pay the big bills if the pilot screws
up.
As for selling my RV to anyone, I'm going to make sure I tell that person
how I feel about training in one before taking one on a solo flight. After
that, it's the decision of the purchaser to do the right thing. When I sold
my Cheetah, it was to a guy who'd been flying a two place Grumman for years.
He sold his Grumman to a man who didn't listen very well. He also didn't
fly very well. He ended up taking out the nose gear very shortly after he
bought the airplane. The guy who bought mine kept it for a couple of years
and had no problems with it. A difference in attitude, don't you think?
> Instead, I will just congratulate those who actually do "fly enough" to
have
> a "good feel for their aircraft" and diligently practice, while stressed,
> emergency returns or diversions to a airport with a rough running engine
or
> some other emergency, overshooting their turn to final in a stiff
crosswind
> and throwing in simulated wind-shear - well done guys!!
>
It can be done. :-)
I know we may sound arrogant when we talk about not needing safety devices;
but, our experience has shown they aren't needed if one is flying regularly.
I'm retired and on a very limited income; but, I fly every week, if I can.
Oftentimes more than that. I believe there is no need to own an airplane if
I'm not going to fly it. I also believe the only way to stay proficient
enough to fly a higher performance airplane is to fly it regularly. That is
my safety device.
Just look at the Bonanzas and other high performance aircraft out there that
kill each year because their doctor/lawyer type owners never fly them
enough. They tend to kill themselves and their families. Those airplanes
are loaded with safety goodies. The Kennedy's airplane was a good example
of a lack of common sense in an airplane loaded with safety devices. We
have aircraft owners at my home base who may fly their airplanes a couple of
times a year. Those aircraft have safety devices; but, do you think those
devices are going to make those pilots safe to ride with? I don't think
so!
I have known five pilots who were killed in aircraft. One died when the
engine on the Bonanza he was flying quit on take off. He may have used the
wrong fuel selector setting. Another died in his gyrocopter when the engine
failed. We think he stalled the rotor. He was an instructor in gyros;
but, he flew an aircraft with known engine problems, anyway. Another died
when he and his friend balled up their C150 in a hard crosswind. Old age
may have had something to do with that one. Reaction times do slow down
with age. Those two seemed to fly on the ragged edge, anyway. One of them
was the aforementioned Grumman purchaser. Another died when he allowed his
pilot friend to fly into known icing with a C177. The person who died was
instrument rated and not current. The PIC was working on the rating. Not
good common sense. I'm amazed that anyone survived that crash. One was
flying a new Lancair and had an engine failure in flight. He balled it up
in a subdivision. In each case, a stall warning device would not have
helped much. In three of the cases, the warning devices were present.
Still, they will all be on that NTSB report to support arguments for the
need of a stall warning device, if one choses to use it to support their
argument for that. Statistics are kinda like that.
When I first started flying Scooter, I had a wasp clog up the pitot twice in
one week! Both times, I knew the airplane well enough to fly it as if
nothing was wrong with it. Other than not knowing how fast I was going,
nothing was wrong with it. I flew the airplane and fixed the problem later.
It was no big deal because I knew my airplane, even though I had only flown
it about six months. We discuss these safety devices, and not taking off
without one; but, what will you do if your electrical system fails and no
warning device is available? Will you just give up and stop flying? I
don't think so!
With proper training, flying an RV is easy to do. With proper training, the
average pilot will have experienced the edges of the envelop in a RV and
will be able to handle most of the things we've discussed, so far. If one
goes beyond that, the best of the warning devices will not save those folks.
The NTSB reports prove that out.
Again, I say you should install a warning device, if that gives you a warm
fuzzy. I'm building a new -7A to replace Scooter, someday. It will not
have a stall warning device. Bob and Jerry both have many more hours of
flying than I do and do not support their installation. I'm pushing 2000
hours of flight time and feel comfortable that I do not need one. Why?
Because I'm not one who pushes the ragged edge every time I go to fly. I
fly in a conservative manner that works well for me. I don't try to get as
slow as I can when I land. I don't point the nose of my RV straight up when
I take off. I leave myself some wiggle room. With that, a stall warning
device isn't needed. For you, that may not be enough. If not, install the
device. Only you can determine what's best for you. However, common sense
is what will prevail. Without it, your device is worthless.
Jim Sears in KY
RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
RV-7A #70317 (Building wings, fuse ordered)
EAA Tech Counselor
EAA Flight Advisor
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on |
zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
> That's nonsense. By your reasoning a "proficient" pilot should ditch his
> altimeter and just eyeball altitude. While we're at it, let's lose the
flaps
> and learn to properly slip to landing. Don't carrier pilots use an AOA?
Hard
> to find pilots more proficient than that.
>
> Steve Zicree
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Slow down, Steve.
Take a deep breath, relax and...
Enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder".
You sound like you're still on the steep part of the learning curve.
Bob - over a half century of flight
do not archive
Message 7
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| Subject: | Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute |
<OhioValleyRVators@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
On this very important day, I felt it appropriate to post an article on
our 2 special missions last Sunday. I encourage you to read what some
very special pilots and planes can do. There are 2 articles I think are
worth reading. One on our missing man, and the other on our Tuskegee
Flight. I hope you like em. Proof readers have reported that a Kleenex
is required.
Click on the link under Airshows for Camden 04
http://www.mstewart.net/teamrv/index.htm
Warm Regards,
Mike Stewart
Do not archive
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I think the PSS AOA Sport is a good value considering all that it gives you.
I refer to mine every TO, landing and in between.
http://www.angle-of-attack.com
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8, 22.3 Hrs.
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob 1 [mailto:rv3a@comcast.net]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:25 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc. on opie.wvnet.edu
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
> > Please don't take this as a flame, but I earn a living in high risk
> sports,
> > and the safety nuts are always telling me if
> only............(fill in
> > the
> > blank) no one would ever get hurt/killed etc. My response is if no
> > one ever flew an airplane, no one would ever die in an
> airplane crash.
> > How many people died in stall spin crashes in the year
> 1640! My point
> exactly!!!
>
> > Bob
> > RV6 NightFighter
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> I have over half a century of flight.
> Much of it was considered high risk.
>
> A couple of observations....
>
> 1. Statistics will prove whatever the speaker wants them to prove.
> 2. For the most part, we are either speaking to the choir or
> we are not.
>
> Kinda' like religion and/or politics. <g>
>
>
> Bob - RV3 driver and ex crop duster
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
Great job!!!!
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <Jerry2DT@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
> Dan,
>
> I think it IS rocket science. Your presentation is the way it should have
> been done in the first place. Congrats and thanks for the time and effort,
> you've done a real service to fellow pilots.
>
> Jerry Cochran
>
>
> This isn't rocket science by any stretch, but it is brand new
> functionality
> on my decoded weather stuff...
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/wx/
>
> Now you can enter origin and destination airports and a course width, and
> you can get decoded weather along that course (great circle). This
> should
> simplify x-country flight planning imho...at-a-glance color coded weather
> along your route.
>
> do not archive
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
Howard, do you do aerobatics? Just wondering if you see the aoa getting
close to stall during high g turns. How about short field landings? Which
system do you have?
Shemp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall warning etc.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath"
> <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
>
> One only needs to look at the stall/spin accident statistics,
> particularly in overshooting the turn to final, to conclude
> that ANY aid to prevent that happening is worth while.
> Far too many pilots are being indoctrinated and licensed
> without adequate stall avoidance training, let alone real
> stall/spin recovery training. Call it an AOA or even one
> of the less-expensive, "pseudo-AOA's" (that would never
> pass military muster) -- awareness of that unforgiving
> threshold is as valuable as any instrument in the panel.
>
> My ifr RV-6A has a Lift Reserve Indicator installed as the
> top instrument at the extreme left of the panel just below
> the glare shield, and more time is spent with it in my scan
> than the air speed indicator. I consider it so important that if
> it failed to display adequate lift capability during the take-off
> run, I'd abort the flight. It has the added benefit of being the
> one speed/lift indicator (in my bird) that would survive an
> unexpected and unavoidable encounter with ice.
>
> Finally Jim, with all of the equipment options available to a
> builder, no supplier of plans or kits can possibly include all
> of the wiring harnesses for all possible configurations. I feel
> gratified if the lightening holes in the ribs are in alignment!!!
>
>
> Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Greg@itmack" <greg@itmack.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc.
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Greg@itmack" <greg@itmack.com>
>>
>> Has anyone got any comments on the Dynon AOA, does it work ok?
>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: <sears@searnet.com>
>>>
>>> This is a nice report; but, I'd be interested in what percentage of
>>> those
>>> accidents were with commercially built aircraft that had stall warning
>>> devices. If we don't pay attention to those that are already installed,
>> why
>>> bother putting them in, in the first place? As others have reported,
>>> one
>>> gets the feel for an RV, very quickly. Once that feel is learned, stall
>>> prevention aides seem to be ignored. Goodness knows the ones in this
>> report
>>> sure forgot about their warning devices. If you want one in your
>> airplane,
>>> by all means install it. Warm fuzzies are still allowed. :-)
>>>
>>> BTW, someone mentioned that Jerry Vangrunsven has a AOA. How about
>>> Van's
>>> fleet? Do they have stall warning devices, as well? I don't remember
>>> seeing anything about stall warning devices in his wiring diagrams. If
>>> he
>>> pushes them, one would think one would be shown in the diagrams.
>>>
>>> Jim Sears in KY
>>> do not archive
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: <EMAproducts@aol.com>
>>> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc.
>>>
>>>
>>> > --> RV-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com
>>> >
>>> > To all who said the stall warning / AOA was not needed,
>>> > These pilots weren't planning on an accident either!
>>> > Do you know of ANYONE who planned an accident?
>>> > Taken from NTSB reports, a total of 1833 Stall Spin accidents
>>> > Phase # accidents % Fatal
>>> > of Flight
>>> > T/O 451 33
>>> > Climb 61 52
>>> > Cruise 91 44
>>> > Maneuvering 294 69
>>> > Decent 76 72
>>> > Approach 201 39
>>> > Em. Ldg 64 28
>>> > Landing 269 6
>>> > Go around VFR 36 17
>>> > Go around IFR 3 100
>>> > UKN 276 34
>>> >
>>> > This is Stall Spin accidents only over a 9 year period up to 2004, it
>>> > includes production and homebuilt aircraft.
>>> > Notice the maneuvering, something all of us have been guilty of at one
>>> time
>>> > or the other in our flying career/hobby. This is not near airports,
>> such
>>> a
>>> > terrible waste of equipment and lives. Buzz jobs etc were the leading
>>> cause of
>>> > this type of accident, the fancy pull up and whoops, all over.
>>> >
>>> > You can bet not all 1833 accident aircraft involved in stall spin
>>> accidents
>>> > were not familiar with their airplanes. Were all your friends who
>>> > have
>>> been
>>> > killed in a stall spin accidents idiots as some of you have implied?
>>> >
>>> > This puts it all in perspective!
>>> >
>>> > This isn't to flame or point fingers, but just cold statistics.
>>> >
>>> > Elbie, who has lost to many friends needlessly
>>> > www.riteangle.com
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Calvert" <rv6@cox.net>
I have the same engine in my -6 and it runs 150 on cool days and 170 on hot
days. Haven't flown on really cold days yet. I have a flap on the oil
cooler that I can close to varying degrees and it will raise the temp. I
try to get the oil temp up to 180 by adjusting the flap. I have also put a
restrictor plate between the cooler and baffle to reduce the opening by 1/3
and it helped. I plan on enlarging the restrictor plate a little more.
You didn't mention what size oil cooler lines you are using. I have -8
fittings and oil lines. I think that -6 lines would help raise the oil
temp.
Jerry Calvert
N295JC RV6
Edmond Ok
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruno" <rv4@videotron.ca>
Subject: RV-List: Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bruno <rv4@videotron.ca>
>
> Hello Listers
> I have a Lycoming 0-320 E2D in my RV-4 and ever
since
> I got the a/c , the oil temperature has been hovering between 110 (Cold
day
> 25 F)and 150
> (very hot day 80 F.)
> My first reaction was to check the oil temp gauge
> which I found defective and I since replaced it with one from Van's. I
> thought my problem will be over but not to avail.Next was to installed a
> back plate to the back of the oil cooler.It did improve the oil temp a bit
> but not by much.
>
> I'm wondering what I can do next short of plugging
the
> air intake.
>
> I have a Positech (7 rows) oil cooler on the a/c.
>
> So what have you guys (specially the ones flying in cold climat) done to
get
> the proper oil temp?
>
> Are there any oil cooler better than others??
>
> What is your normal oil temperature range?
>
> What are the potential problems I can expect? ( I know of a few but it
will
> be nice to know them all if possible.)
>
> Thank you
>
> Bruno Dionne
> C-GDBH RV-4
> rv4@videotron.ca
>
> P.S # You may reply OFF list if you wish.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Open In FLight on opie.wvnet.edu clamav-milter |
version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
For what its worth.....
I've been trying a few acronyms to use as a quick checklist before t/o to
make sure I didn't miss the essential items. Here's what I use:
FFTC, GUMP
F - Fuel (pump on if appl, select appr tank)
F - Flaps
T - Trim
C - Canopy
We all know GUMP.
Its easy to remember FTC anyway so just add an F to it or don't and use the
G in gump to remember. I find I use it on final as well, especially during
touch and go's and the ever so dreaded go-around(trim/flaps).
Jeff Dowling
RV-6A, N915JD
140 hours
Chicago/Louisville
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Bristol" <bj034@lafn.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight on opie.wvnet.edu clamav-milter
version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
>
> I hate to admit it but in the early days of flying my -6, I managed to
> leave the slider unlatched 3 times! The first time I noticed it at about
> 7000 feet (because of the cold draft on the back of my neck). Since I
> had so much altitude, I felt it was safer to try to close it than to
> wait until I landed. In cruise you can forget it, it won't move, but if
> you slow down and put the flaps down it closes pretty easily by
> squeezing the lower front corner and the roll bar together on both
> sides.. Of course, you have to let go of the stick to do it, so it's a
> good idea to get the airplane trimmed for that speed.
> The second time I noticed it on takeoff and just landed to close it. The
> third time it happened it was a non-issue since I knew exactly what to do!
> Now, before taking the runway, I automatically reach up and check the
> handle. Now if I can just find a way to remember to turn on the fuel pump!
>
> Dave -6 So Cal
> EAA Technical Counselor and Flight Advisor
>
>>Recommendation it this happens to you:
>>
>>1. Fly the aircraft
>>2. Don't panic, land when you can, safely.
>>3. Do not see how far you can go with the canopy open, slows you down,
>>the
>>suction is tremendous and could suck off the canopy with out the forward
>>(for the slider) latch locked.
>>
>>Bob
>>RV6 NightFighter
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 13
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
Not everyone has your skill Jerry.
do not archive
Shemp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
> DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote:
>
>>. Two people I knew might still be alive today if they had these features
>>in the cockpit! Just IMHO.
>>
>>Dean Psiropoulos
>>RV-6A N197DM
>>Wiring and fuel system
>>
>>
>>
> All of this talk about stall warnings and AOA makes me wonder how in the
> world I survived 43 years of flying without
> them? I cannot think of one occasion that I have not been aware of what
> my airplane was doing either in the pattern or
> elsewhere.
>
> do not archive
>
> Jerry
>
> PS Dean if you are talking about Gary and Mike I am not so sure it would
> have helped.
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range |
--> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com
Hi Bruno
If you get any replies off list to this problem, would you send a copy to
me? I have an RV4 with low oil temps just like yours. I recently installed an
oil filter and vernatherm with no change in temps. Mahlon on the Lycoming Yahoo
group told me I needed to remove the spring and cap under the 1" plug so
the oil would be controlled by the vernatherm and not the way it use to be when
I had the screen filter. Did this and then the oil temps only came up about 5
degrees. Still need to do something to get them up. I did check my sender
and gage by immersing in boiling water and found my gage is correct. Next cowl
removal, I'm going to stuff a rag in my cooler in case some oil is still
passing through it. I perviously had blocked 80% of it off and no difference.
I
have concluded that the RV4 with my _0-320_ (mailto:0-320-A@Bjust) won't
generate enough heat to warm up the oil. All my other temps are fine. Sure would
appreciate anything you learn and what any one else knows about how to
correct this problem.
Pat Long
PGLong@aol.com
N120PL
RV4
Bay City, Michigan
3CM
Message 15
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| Subject: | Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... |
--> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
Larry,
Can you give a more detailed PiRep? During TO/Landings or acro, can you give us
some at least some subjective evaluations on how close to stall it says you
are per given typical maneuver?
I could "relax" a bit, I guess, if more folks with AOA systems gave us some "hard"
data to consider.
For example, the thing that's gotten my attention frequently as a passenger in
RVs is the 60 to 90 degree, (insert your G reading here) bank turns in the pattern
or while flying over some point over the ground. Seems RV dudes love to
rack it up tight while relatively close to the ground with little regard for entry/exit
airspeed or G's being pulled. I ain't been in one that's stalled yet
but my military training has had my sphincter tighten up on me more than once
and I get kind of white knuckled while considering taking the stick away from
the pilot and whacking them on the noggin' like some off the IPs loved to do.
I mean, if you look at the typical stall speed vs. bank angle vs. G charts, I've
been in situations where my brain was telling me we had to be pretty darn close
and not using best judgement.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
> I think the PSS AOA Sport is a good value considering all that it gives you.
> I refer to mine every TO, landing and in between.
>
> http://www.angle-of-attack.com
>
> -
> Larry Bowen, RV-8, 22.3 Hrs.
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bob 1 [mailto:rv3a@comcast.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:25 AM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc. on opie.wvnet.edu
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> >
> > > Please don't take this as a flame, but I earn a living in high risk
> > sports,
> > > and the safety nuts are always telling me if
> > only............(fill in
> > > the
> > > blank) no one would ever get hurt/killed etc. My response is if no
> > > one ever flew an airplane, no one would ever die in an
> > airplane crash.
> > > How many people died in stall spin crashes in the year
> > 1640! My point
> > exactly!!!
> >
> > > Bob
> > > RV6 NightFighter
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > I have over half a century of flight.
> > Much of it was considered high risk.
> >
> > A couple of observations....
> >
> > 1. Statistics will prove whatever the speaker wants them to prove.
> > 2. For the most part, we are either speaking to the choir or
> > we are not.
> >
> > Kinda' like religion and/or politics. <g>
> >
> >
> > Bob - RV3 driver and ex crop duster
> >
> >
> > Do not archive
> >
> >
> > =========
> > =========
> > Matronics Forums.
> > =========
> > =========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute |
--> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com
Great work Mike. You guys are outstanding. I did need the kleenex. Thanks for
all the good things ya'll are doing.
Regards,
Doug
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> Again, I say you should install a warning device, if that gives you a warm
> fuzzy. I'm building a new -7A to replace Scooter, someday. It will not
> have a stall warning device. Bob and Jerry both have many more hours of
> flying than I do and do not support their installation. I'm pushing 2000
> hours of flight time and feel comfortable that I do not need one. Why?
> Because I'm not one who pushes the ragged edge every time I go to fly. I
> fly in a conservative manner that works well for me. I don't try to get
as
> slow as I can when I land. I don't point the nose of my RV straight up
when
> I take off. I leave myself some wiggle room. With that, a stall warning
> device isn't needed. For you, that may not be enough. If not, install
the
> device. Only you can determine what's best for you. However, common
sense
> is what will prevail. Without it, your device is worthless.
>
> Jim Sears in KY
> RV-6A N198JS (Scooter)
> RV-7A #70317 (Building wings, fuse ordered)
> EAA Tech Counselor
> EAA Flight Advisor
> do not archive
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sufficient wiggle room?
Common sense?
Good judgement?
Although no device can substitute for the above...
neither can an instructor teach such with predictable results.
[SOAP BOX ON]
As to stall/spin training....
IIRC, the FAA's prediction is more pilots would be lost in stall/spin
training than are currently lost under actual conditions. That is why you
don't see such training required of students. Most stall spin accidents
occur on that fateful base to final turn.... when too low to recover from a
screw up anyway, so the story goes.
Do I agree...
More or less.
IMO, what is needed is for the field of instructors to be sufficiently
competent in stall recognition to be able to pass it on to their students.
Of course, none of this matters much unless the FAA places a more stringent
emphasis on stall recognition and to demonstrate a higher proficiency before
solo and the acquisition of additional GA ratings... including that of
Instructor.
It is also my opinion that such training does not generally exist in any
meaningful way because some/many students are fearful of flying on the edge
of stalls and the industry is wont to do anything that might scare off the
golden goose... even if it kills one every now and then..
[SOAP BOX OFF]
Are we all then doomed?
No, not all of us. <g>
YMMV.
Bob - fate is the hunter
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
steve zicree wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> One more thing on the AOA issue. I'm guessing most of you have read it, but
> to those who haven't, get a copy of Stick and Rudder. It's an awesome book
> on the subject.
For those wanting additional info concerning AOA issues, stall warnings,
etc, etc, look in the list archives. This subject gets thoroughly hashed
and rehashed every couple of years or so. :-)
Just search "AOA" or "LRI" and sit back for an extended reading session.
Sam Buchanan
Message 19
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| Subject: | RE: [Team RV] Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
I just want to publicly thank Mike, Stu, Rick and their wingmen once again
for helping us make it all so special and to say to Mike ...
man you have really outdone yourself on this one!!!
In a strange way, reading that article, was (almost) better than being there
and I **was** there!
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) [mailto:mstewart@iss.net]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 7:25 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com; teamrv@yahoogroups.com;
> OhioValleyRVators@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Team RV] Team RV....A Veterans Day Salute
>
>
> On this very important day, I felt it appropriate to post an article on
> our 2 special missions last Sunday. I encourage you to read what some
> very special pilots and planes can do. There are 2 articles I think are
> worth reading. One on our missing man, and the other on our Tuskegee
> Flight. I hope you like em. Proof readers have reported that a Kleenex
> is required.
>
>
> Click on the link under Airshows for Camden 04
>
> http://www.mstewart.net/teamrv/index.htm
>
>
> Warm Regards,
>
>
> Mike Stewart
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!
> http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/jrDrlB/TM
>
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/teamrv/
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> teamrv-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | RE: inverted oil |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" <aerobubba@earthlink.net>
Hi All-
To my knowledge, Doug doesn't maintain a web site. He can be reached at
the following addresses when he's not off flying an airshow or mowing the
airport.
BTW, his slobber pot is also flat instead of cylindrical. In theory, it
should precipitate more oil vapor due to the greater radiating surface area
per cubic volume of slobber pot. It also means the pot bolts directly to
the firewall instead of using giant hose clamps to hang it. Any of the
systems can use the vacuum pump pad (a la B&C) for improved oil pick up
performance, unless of course you have an IO 360-A1B6D. You may wonder how
I know that....
Doug Dodge
Acro Specialties
614 Fouth River Rd
Bay City, MI 48708
ddodge@concentric.net
989-893-0801
--> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
got a link?
-------------- Original message --------------
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek"
>
> Hi All-
>
> For those interested in inverted oil, check out Doug Dodge at Acro
> Specialties up in Bay City, MI. His system is functionally the same as
the
> other systems while avoiding the sticking valve of the Christen system.
> The cost is a fraction of the Christen and slightly less than the RAven
> system (as of my purchase), but included the machining and repainting the
> sump.
>
> FWIW
>
Glen Matejcek
aerobubba@earthlink.net
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on |
zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Well said Bob!
Bob 1 wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
>
>
>>That's nonsense. By your reasoning a "proficient" pilot should ditch his
>>altimeter and just eyeball altitude.
>>
There's only two (in my mind) times you NEED (my emphasis) an altimeter
(set to the correct PA) and that's IFR and when above 3000' for
separation ..... so where do you fly?
>> While we're at it, let's lose the flaps
>>
There are a lot of airplanes that don't even have them.
>> and learn to properly slip to landing.
>>
You should be able to do that with/without the flaps.
>> Don't carrier pilots use an AOA? Hard to find pilots more proficient than that.
>>
Yeah, but look at how much it costs to train them! Military pilots, by
the nature of their job stay proficient ...... and may not have flown as
many different models as you have! You didn't mention practicing night
landings without your landing lights either.
However you (this is the collective you, not a specific you) look at
safety and how we achieve it .... with gadgets or flight time or
training .... it all boils down to OUR perception of what's required for
a safe flight or OUR wants/needs for neat gadgets. For me, I'm
comfortable with minimum equipment (my Pitts fills that bill) but my -10
will be full-blown IFR capable ..... and maybe I will be too ...... and
my requirements will surely change over time. But I still think that
the best safety tool is between the ears of the person in the left
seat. Rarely do airplanes have a problem on their own. And reading
some of the NTSB accident reports (yeah, that's my 'home page) I have to
wonder "what were they thinking". Flying often is probably the second
safety tool. So I do it every chance I get. That still hasn't kept me
accident or incident free.
Linn
>>
>>Steve Zicree
>>
>>
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>Slow down, Steve.
>
>Take a deep breath, relax and...
>Enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder".
>
>You sound like you're still on the steep part of the learning curve.
>
>
>Bob - over a half century of flight
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>
Message 22
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham@hotmail.com>
Dean,
I strongly Agree with you.
We have JimFrantz'a Proprietary Software System's Pro in our RV-8A. We
mounted it, at Jim's suggestion, in a holder on top of the glareshield in
the left hand corner AND hard wired the audio warning to the pilot's headset
jack.
For those of you who have had an in-flight emergency, you know how busy it
gets. You are focused on the problem at hand - the audio warning is my
insurance and it works.
Regarding comments that there are safety cops who will tell you what to do -
I won't argue. But like most of us I also usually dismiss them. Remembering
that the FAA is more interested in the public than us - Safety is our
responsiblitity. WE CAN MITIGATE the Risks - If we want to. Since I'd hate
to see my family suffer my loss (probably few others would be
concerned-short of more FAA attention) I under took a fairly extensive
research effort on what we could do to mitigate the risks, we all face.
Hence the AOA was on the top of my list.
Good building and safe flying,
Chuck Rowbotham
RV-8A (300+ hrs)
>From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RV-List: AOA
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 00:52:14 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS"
><dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>
>Since I've been spending most of my time building and so far only have
>limited flight time in RVs (~4 hours) I'm not speaking from an abundance of
>my own experience. However, from what flying I have done and from having
>known people who flew thier RVs ALOT and still PERISHED due to stall spin
>accidents, I really think that than AOA indicator (with a warning tone into
>the audio system) should be high on every RVers need list. The issue as I
>see it has to do with the power and speed of the airplane and the ease with
>which the RVs will do steeply banked turns and still have seemingly
>unlimited excess power. To me this seems like it could have the effect of
>making the pilot complacent and possibly get him into trouble. I have
>heard many an RV driver talk about yanking and banking HARD when LOW in the
>pattern in order to bleed off more speed for landing. Remember your basic
>pilot training folks:"the more you bank the faster the stall speed becomes
>until it goes to infinity"!
>. This also applies to airplanes with "adequate" power like the RV! Just
>because we have so much power doesn't mean we can defy the laws of physics.
> We can NOT just crank it over and hold it there without consequences!
>An AOA indicator in the cockpit would certianly help show us how close to
>the ragged edge we are pushing it. For those busy times in the pattern
>where we might not be looking heads down at the indicator.....the warning
>tone should help remind us not to press the envelope any further. Two
>people I knew might still be alive today if they had these features in the
>cockpit! Just IMHO.
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
>RV-6A N197DM
>Wiring and fuel system
Message 23
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mts.net>
> I think you're dead-on accurate here. I've no experience in an RV, but
> have
> seen ridiculously steep-banked RV's in the pattern.
Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one of
the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall
speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as the
load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can be
in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight
and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the
pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not pulling
any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On
the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and
level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated
stall.
What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of bank,
the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn increases, until at
90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold altitude. But even
that goes out the window when you start getting into high power-to-weight
ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level, knife edge flight is
obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only seeing 1 G and still holding level
flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree base-to-final turn but letting the
altitude bleed off and keeping the airspeed up and the Gs low and be nowhere
near the stall.
I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high Gs at low
altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an eye on
your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked turn, keep the nose
down, the Gs low and the airspeed up.
As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they seem like a
good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low altitude. The
alternative is to just stay away from the edge.
Curt
RV-6 C-GACR
240 hours
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" <dburton@nwlink.com>
> For example, the thing that's gotten my attention frequently as a
passenger in RVs is the >60 to 90 degree, (insert your G reading here) bank
turns in the pattern or while flying over >some point over the ground.
Seems RV dudes love to rack it up tight while relatively >close to the
ground with little regard for entry/exit airspeed or G's being pulled. I
ain't >been in one that's stalled yet but my military training has had my
sphincter tighten up on >me more than once and I get kind of white knuckled
while considering taking the stick >away from the pilot and whacking them on
the noggin' like some off the IPs loved to do.
I think Lucky is right on the mark with this. I know four people killed in
exactly this way, meaning that two pilots killed themselves and both took
another pilot with them. When you whip stall at low altitude it could be
possible to fly out of it, but most of us will be overwhelmed by the
experience to the point that the ground will give us a dope slap before we
figure out what happened. One of these accidents was an RV6 the other was a
Yak. The Yak is designed to fly out of a stall and easily could have, the
pilot had well more then 1000 feet of altitude. My friend (20,000+ hours
and airshow pilot) flying his other plane observed the Yak held in the stall
until impact with the ground. Since the pilots were dead we can't say what
happened for sure. The NTSB could not identify a mechanical deficiency and
both accidents were observed to result from an accelerated stall caused by
cranking the plane around in a high bank angle.
I'd really prefer to hear "angle angle push" before the break if I found
myself in this situation.
Message 25
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| Subject: | re: Stall Warnings, etc |
0.00 FROM_HAS_MIXED_NUMS From: contains numbers mixed in with letters
--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
The LRI (Lift Reserve Indicator) in my RV6A was my primary reference when
(as you may recall) I posted about an incident where my static tube was
pinched and I lost ASI, VSI, ALT, upon take off in a busy traffic pattern
and decided to fly on rather than get back in the pattern without those
indicators...my LRI was critical for landing, and is ALWAYS, the
indicator I refer to on rotation and while doing pattern turns, etc.
I may not be old, fat, and have 50,000-hours in WW2, but I know what's
important !!
John at Salida, CO
Message 26
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| Subject: | Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
I've got an O-320-E2A with high compresion pistons. It runs 140-160 unless
doing a lot of powered slow flight. I lean the heck out of it, have a
working vernitherm, spin on oil filter on the accy section and have an oil
cooler on the firewall.
It's (knock on wood) doing just fine after about 680 hrs of my overhaul in
1999. On the other hand, most of the -360 series installations I'm familiar
with generally seem to run hotter. Bottom line - for some reason - I
believe the -320 series just runs cooler.
Bryan Jones
>From: PGLong@aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: Rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Lycoming 0-320 Oil Temperature Range
>Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 08:18:28 EST
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: PGLong@aol.com
>
>Hi Bruno
>
>If you get any replies off list to this problem, would you send a copy to
>me? I have an RV4 with low oil temps just like yours. I recently installed
>an
>oil filter and vernatherm with no change in temps. Mahlon on the Lycoming
>Yahoo
> group told me I needed to remove the spring and cap under the 1" plug so
>the oil would be controlled by the vernatherm and not the way it use to be
>when
>I had the screen filter. Did this and then the oil temps only came up about
>5
> degrees. Still need to do something to get them up. I did check my sender
>and gage by immersing in boiling water and found my gage is correct. Next
>cowl
>removal, I'm going to stuff a rag in my cooler in case some oil is still
>passing through it. I perviously had blocked 80% of it off and no
>difference. I
>have concluded that the RV4 with my _0-320_ (mailto:0-320-A@Bjust) won't
>generate enough heat to warm up the oil. All my other temps are fine. Sure
>would
>appreciate anything you learn and what any one else knows about how to
>correct this problem.
>
>Pat Long
>PGLong@aol.com
>N120PL
>RV4
>Bay City, Michigan
>3CM
>
>
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on |
zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
And you're on the smug, flat, know-it-all part of the curve.
Steve - over one million seconds of breathing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on
zoot.lafn.org
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
> >
> > That's nonsense. By your reasoning a "proficient" pilot should ditch his
> > altimeter and just eyeball altitude. While we're at it, let's lose the
> flaps
> > and learn to properly slip to landing. Don't carrier pilots use an AOA?
> Hard
> > to find pilots more proficient than that.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Slow down, Steve.
>
> Take a deep breath, relax and...
> Enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder".
>
> You sound like you're still on the steep part of the learning curve.
>
>
> Bob - over a half century of flight
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 28
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--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>I think you're dead-on accurate here. I've no experience in an RV, but have
>seen ridiculously steep-banked RV's in the pattern.
It's all about energy management. RV's bank OK up to *360 degrees* at 100
mph and even nicer at 120-130 mph airspeed - whether at 1500 agl or 100 agl.
What altitude one chooses to do this is between them and the FAA, allowing
for skills and life insurance currency. Short wing RV's (all except the -9
and maybe -10) all will bite you if you get them slow on final even with AOA
and stall warning devices, run out of energy during a steep pull up
following a low pass, or yank the stick to the point of breaking off a wing.
Everything that flies has an envelope. RV's are no different. The problem
comes when people get a little pumped up giving rides trying to show off.
There's no reason to get into this stall/spin situation after a pull up.
Just know your plane! The only time I've gotten into this low energy
condition was during an acro session. Instead of a stall turn/hammerhead, I
kicked late and ended up in a near tailslide (not smart in an RV - they're
not built for that). I lost an uncomfortable amount of altitude before
beginning flying again. But had an alt margin and learned from it.
Recalling this situation, I know this is probably what happens to those who
crash after a steep pull up. It's not a helicopter - it needs airspeed or
will begin accelerating toward the ground.
Big knock on wood again, but I've never been near the ragged edge in the
pattern. I always fly 110 dwnd, 100 base and 90-95 final - works good for
me. I have gotten slow over the runway and "plopped" it down after a nice
stabilized approach. Didn't like it at all, but learned from it. I was
intentionall flying near stall to get into a short field. I doubt that an
AOA would have helped, because I got an accelerated stall shen I flared to
land. But that doesn't mean I'm against them - just not my thing.
>However, from what flying I have done and from having
>known people who flew thier RVs ALOT and still PERISHED due to stall spin
>accidents, I really think that than AOA indicator (with a warning tone into
>the audio system) should be high on every RVers need list.
Maybe, maybe not. have flown with and without one. I'd argue that once
that person committed to the high angle pull up and the speed slowed to the
point of an imminent stall and some warning device alarmed, they were
already dead. Example - someone pulls into a near vertical pull-up. The
AOA and stall warning will not alarm until committed to the eventual
complete loss of flying airspeed. If too low, and you loose enough
airspeed, you're going to hit the ground and nothing can be done to prevent
it - other than ejecting.
.....the warning tone should
>help remind us not to press the envelope any further. Two people I knew
>might still be alive today if they had these features in the cockpit! Just
I believe these systems would be very helpful for some just becoming
familiar with their plane. And I've also learned after doing the cfi thing
for a while that there are some who, even after many hours in a given model,
seem to prefer flying little planes primarily from the numbers/instrument
indications and less from feel.
Good discussions and glad we can all build them like we want!!
Bryan Jones
do not archive
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: re: Stall Warnings, etc |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Here is my 2 cents on all this with no flame intended to those who want the
stall devices.
In VFR weather, the entire panel should not be needed in order to make a
good landing. I used to race cars, road racing requires a good feel through
your hands and rear end while doing 4 wheel drifts around the course. For
me this has transferred over to flying, I can tell you what the plane is
doing by sound and vibration. I once forgot to remove the pitot tube cover,
continued on and landed at my destination and landed by feel, it was a non
issue. If you can not feel what your plane is doing then you had better
rely on some sort of stall warning device I guess. This also reminds me of
people in other posts who have commented about how fast the RV's pick up
speed. Well yea, for me they do until about 210 MPH then there are all
sorts of "signs" that let you know things are changing. Some people have
commented on hitting 260 MPH while looking at a map!!!! My question is ho
can you not feel/hear that? Being in tune with your plane is
vital........of course VFR conditions only.
At 09:47 AM 11/11/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
>The LRI (Lift Reserve Indicator) in my RV6A was my primary reference when
>(as you may recall) I posted about an incident where my static tube was
>pinched and I lost ASI, VSI, ALT, upon take off in a busy traffic pattern
>and decided to fly on rather than get back in the pattern without those
>indicators...my LRI was critical for landing, and is ALWAYS, the
>indicator I refer to on rotation and while doing pattern turns, etc.
>
>I may not be old, fat, and have 50,000-hours in WW2, but I know what's
>important !!
>
>John at Salida, CO
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 30
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" <jerry@mc.net>
Me too ... thanks.
Jerry Grimmonpre O-320 RV7A
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Prop cable
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
>
> If you could send that diagram I would appreciate it also.
>
> Thanks,
> John Furey
> O-320 RV6A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Open In FLight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" <Fred.Stucklen@UTCFuelCells.com>
First and foremost, Van doesn't recommend opening a Tip-Up
canopy in flight. Nor do I recommend doing it unless the test
conditions are limited....
But in the interest of knowing all I can know
about my plane, I've done a fair amount of testing for the
open Tip Up canopy condition, including opening it in flight,
and taking off & landing with it open. Except for limiting
the cruise speed while it's open, there has never been any
adverse effects. The MAX airspeed I've tested to with it open,
is 110 Knots.
Because of the airflow over it, the canopy wants to open up about
3". The canopy is a lifting surface. Because of that fact, it's
difficult to close it in flight, UNLESS the airspeed is reduced AND
the angle of attack is increased: to close it, slow down to approach
speed (even put the flaps down) get the nose up a bit, and it'll
close easily.
Believe it or not, the canopy can be used to control the pitch of
the aircraft while in flight, and can be used in an emergency if the
elevator controls were compromised. Slow the aircraft down WITHOUT
PUTTING ON THE FLAPS. Use the trim to obtain level flight. Slowly
open the canopy, and re-trim (you'll need more UP trim).
Once trimmed, let go of the stick. Pulling the canopy down will
cause the nose to pitch up. Pushing it further open will cause the
nose to pitch down.
I've even demonstrated landing using only this method for pitch
control (fast landing on a very long runway, with my hand near the
stick!).
Fred Stucklen
RV-6A N926RV
From: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
A friend who has an RV6A tilt-up canopy took off with it cracked open.
It was a hot day and he forgot to close it. He said that after he
took
off it would come to within about 2 inches of closing but that he
couldn't pull it shut. Nor could he push it outward (hoping the wind
would slam it down so he could latch it. He said it took an
incredible
combined effort of he and his wife to pull the canopy down and latch
it. Dunno about the sliders. I triple check the canopy on my RV-4!
923te wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
>I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as
I
>might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway
end
>for fear of it opening further un flight.
>
>Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by
itself. I
>believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is
only open
>a few inches.
>What are the groups experiences?
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re:Stall Horn clamav-milter version 0.80j on |
zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> And you're on the smug, flat, know-it-all part of the curve.
>
> Steve - over one million seconds of breathing
============================
If my style and placement on 'the curve' offends you, I appolgize.
I do continue to learn and am confident you can teach me a few things.
However, when it comes to surviving a flight environment for 50 years...
I am a proven survivor.
Now, once more -
Take a deep breath, relax and...
Enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder".
Bob -
Do not archive.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Sorry. I'm still a newby. I haven't explored the edges of the envelope yet
to really answer those sort of questions. I use it to help get off my home
runway before the big pothole (actually just a rough spot, probably a
pothole by spring). I look for four lights on final (best appch). And I
know it accurately predicts a power off stall. I haven't done too many of
those yet though. With 23.5 hours now, it's time to explore those other
areas, but so far I've been focused on engine break-in, trouble-shooting,
landings and just generally getting acquainted with the plane.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lucky [mailto:luckymacy@comcast.net]
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 8:41 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Stall warnings, AOAs, pucker factor...
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
>
> Larry,
> Can you give a more detailed PiRep? During TO/Landings or
> acro, can you give us some at least some subjective
> evaluations on how close to stall it says you are per given
> typical maneuver?
>
> I could "relax" a bit, I guess, if more folks with AOA
> systems gave us some "hard" data to consider.
>
> For example, the thing that's gotten my attention frequently
> as a passenger in RVs is the 60 to 90 degree, (insert your G
> reading here) bank turns in the pattern or while flying over
> some point over the ground. Seems RV dudes love to rack it
> up tight while relatively close to the ground with little
> regard for entry/exit airspeed or G's being pulled. I ain't
> been in one that's stalled yet but my military training has
> had my sphincter tighten up on me more than once and I get
> kind of white knuckled while considering taking the stick
> away from the pilot and whacking them on the noggin' like
> some off the IPs loved to do.
>
> I mean, if you look at the typical stall speed vs. bank angle
> vs. G charts, I've been in situations where my brain was
> telling me we had to be pretty darn close and not using best
> judgement.
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> >
> > I think the PSS AOA Sport is a good value considering all
> that it gives you.
> > I refer to mine every TO, landing and in between.
> >
> > http://www.angle-of-attack.com
> >
> > -
> > Larry Bowen, RV-8, 22.3 Hrs.
> > Larry@BowenAero.com
> > http://BowenAero.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Bob 1 [mailto:rv3a@comcast.net]
> > > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2004 5:25 AM
> > > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc. on opie.wvnet.edu
> > >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> > >
> > > > Please don't take this as a flame, but I earn a living in high
> > > > risk
> > > sports,
> > > > and the safety nuts are always telling me if
> > > only............(fill in
> > > > the
> > > > blank) no one would ever get hurt/killed etc. My
> response is if
> > > > no one ever flew an airplane, no one would ever die in an
> > > airplane crash.
> > > > How many people died in stall spin crashes in the year
> > > 1640! My point
> > > exactly!!!
> > >
> > > > Bob
> > > > RV6 NightFighter
> > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > > I have over half a century of flight.
> > > Much of it was considered high risk.
> > >
> > > A couple of observations....
> > >
> > > 1. Statistics will prove whatever the speaker wants them to prove.
> > > 2. For the most part, we are either speaking to the choir
> or we are
> > > not.
> > >
> > > Kinda' like religion and/or politics. <g>
> > >
> > >
> > > Bob - RV3 driver and ex crop duster
> > >
> > >
> > > Do not archive
> > >
> > >
> > > =========
> > > =========
> > > Matronics Forums.
> > > =========
> > > =========
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Open In FLight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> Believe it or not, the canopy can be used to control the pitch of
> the aircraft while in flight, and can be used in an emergency if the
> elevator controls were compromised. Slow the aircraft down WITHOUT
> PUTTING ON THE FLAPS. Use the trim to obtain level flight. Slowly
> open the canopy, and re-trim (you'll need more UP trim).
> Once trimmed, let go of the stick. Pulling the canopy down will
> cause the nose to pitch up. Pushing it further open will cause the
> nose to pitch down.
> I've even demonstrated landing using only this method for pitch
> control (fast landing on a very long runway, with my hand near the
> stick!).
>
> Fred Stucklen
> RV-6A N926RV
==================================
I believe it without reservation, Fred.
I'll file this away in the back of my noggin for the day I may need it.
P.S.
Yoohoo, Steve = szicree@adelphia.net
Pleez notice:
I just learned something even after 50 years in the sky.
And you said I knew it all. <g>
Bob
Do not archive
Message 35
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--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>Enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder".
That is an excellent book. Sure explains a lot
of things I should have known 25+ years ago!
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: RV-Listt: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Neil McLeod" <bedrock@theriver.com>
And does your 6 have an inverted system?
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phil Sisson,
Litchfield Aerobatic Club
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV-Listt: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club"
<sisson@consolidated.net>
Actually it is hard to tell some of the clones apart.
Keep in mind that Frank Christen is not the inventor of this inverted
oil system.
He copied it and so did Nathan Davis at Acra-Line, Doug Dodge, and at
least a half dozen others. I personally made my first sytem in the late
70's and a friend of mine made a few sets back in the early seventies.
It was invented by one or two IAC'ers and it just spread from plane to
plane like wild fire. I don't recall who actually came up with the
system first, it is in some old "Sport Aerobatics" though. They were
playing with a lot of different kinds and this is the system that
evolved. The present day systems are all basically the same .The one
Nathan Davis built is what I last used and I thought it was the neatest
because he designed it a little more compact. His ball valve is a
little smaller and the "slobber" pot was made with two flattened sides
instead of completely round. It fits in better and does exactly the same
job..Hiis was also 1/3 the price of Frank's. Unfortunately, he quit
building them back in the late 80's. and concentrated his very high tech
machine shop on high tech aerospace work.
Phil in Illinois RV 6 will fly some day. It has been weighed at
1016 empty with no paint and no interior..
do not archive
>
>
>>From: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
>>Subject: RE: RV-List: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" <rv6_flyer@hotmail.com>
>>
>>Has anyone looked into what appears to be a clone of the Christen inverted
>>oil system?
>>
>>http://www.ravenaircraft.com/raven_012.htm
>>
>>Gary A. Sobek
>>"My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell,
>>1,607 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA
>>http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com
>>
>>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Attaching the emp. tips |
0.50 MIME_BOUND_NEXTPART Spam tool pattern in MIME boundary
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
When attaching the emp. tips, do you use cloth, or just micro-ballons (West Systems)?
I have a couple of weeks until the wings arrive, so I thought I'd get these done.
My fit is really pretty good. There is a small line which could be filled if I
wanted to, just wanted to get the list's concensus.
Also, is there a preference on the type of foam used to seal the ends?
Something easily shaped and sanded, particularly sanded, would be nice.
Ahhh - one more thing. When sanding, how do you protect the skins where you don't
want scratches.
I see all these RV's where there is fiberglass work done and no apparent damage/scratches
on the uhh non-fiberglassed areas.
I have used West systems before (boating) .
Thanks,
Dave
David Fenstermacher
dfenstermacher@earthlink.net
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste@danvilletelco.net>
Great job Dan . . . why can't we get service like this for our government?!
Thank for you effort . . . I'm hooked!
Bob
RV-8 Builder in SE Iowa
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
> Great job!!!!
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Jerry2DT@aol.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Re: ROUTE based decoded METARs and TAFs
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
> >
> > Dan,
> >
> > I think it IS rocket science. Your presentation is the way it should
have
> > been done in the first place. Congrats and thanks for the time and
effort,
> > you've done a real service to fellow pilots.
> >
> > Jerry Cochran
> >
> >
> > This isn't rocket science by any stretch, but it is brand new
> > functionality
> > on my decoded weather stuff...
> >
> > http://www.rvproject.com/wx/
> >
> > Now you can enter origin and destination airports and a course width,
and
> > you can get decoded weather along that course (great circle). This
> > should
> > simplify x-country flight planning imho...at-a-glance color coded
weather
> > along your route.
> >
> > do not archive
> > )_( Dan
> > RV-7 N714D
> > http://www.rvproject.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 39
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Don Mack" <don@dmack.net>
One of our lines of business makes aircraft cables. I haven't ordered a cable from
Van's in a while (mine were all custom made for free ;), but I believe the
cables that come with Van's kits may be ours.
We have setup a web site to customer order kit aircraft cables.
https://shop.tuthill.com/Cablecraft/
Don Mack RV-6A finishing
don@dmack.net | www.dmack.net
Message 40
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| Subject: | CH Products Control Stick Switches Electrical Specifications |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
There has been discussions about the CH Products control sticks (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/aircraft.html) on the newsgroups lately. I have two of them, but there was a question about what the switch ratings were. I contacted Kevin Williamson of CH
Products and he was kind enough to supply me with a set of sample switches (from
Omron) and the part numbers thereof.
I downloaded the complete data sheet from the web, reviewed the specifications
and then called the Omron factory representative. There are a few minor errors
in the datasheet available on the web, so the rep emailed me the revised (corrected)
sheets. I
also discussed with him the specifications listed and got clarification, although
it turned out that when I received the revised data sheets, the specification
is very clear now.
The bottom line is that the electrical rating for all three different switches
is: 1-50mA, at 5-24V.
The explanation for the ratings is:
1. The lower values (1 mA at 5V) are to make sure that the switch sees enough energy
when switching to keep the contacts clean. Any lower values would not guarantee
that the contacts will always make proper contact over the life of the
switch. If for
some reason the load being switched is too low, a resistor could be added in parallel
with the load to increase the current to at least 1 mA.
2. The higher values (50 mA at 24V) are the maximum values that should be switched
that will not damage the switch. Switching any higher loads will risk damaging
the contacts - either welding them shut or warping them or causing excessive
arc damage - and
will certainly shorten the life of the switch.
3. These ratings are for a resistive load, so if they are to be used with a relay
or motor the contacts MUST be protected with a diode or other type of snubber
network!
Of course, the manufacturer always has a margin in the design so if one chooses
to switch 55mA at 14V (for instance), the switch will probably still have a reasonable
life. However, pushing them to 100 mA or more will definitely shorten
the life and may
result in a catastrophic failure at some point.
These switches are rated for a lot of actuations so their use in an airplane should
be no problem. The hat switches are rated for 300,000 operations (minimum),
the switches on the top face of the stick are rated for 100,000 operations
(minimum) and the
trigger (typically used for push-to-talk) is rated for 1,000,000 operations (minimum).
To put these numbers in perspective, let's assume you make one flight every day
for ten years. For each flight you could use the hat switch to trim the airplane
82 times in each direction, you could actuate the flaps (assuming that is
what you use the two
gray switches on the top of the stick for) 27 times each up and down and you could
push-to-talk 274 times.
I am satisfied that the switches used are as robust as you will find and the ratings
are adequate for the task. Just don't go overboard on what you connect
direct to the switches and your CH Products control stick will have a long and
happy life!
Dick Tasker
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: CH Products Control Stick Switches Electrical Specifications |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>>>>>
I'd like to thank Dick for all the legwork looking into this, no small task!
Mark Phillips - do not archive
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: re: Stall Warnings, etc |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Well, looking back at the beginning of all this, the reason that some (not
all, just some) aircraft have stall warning systems is that the
builder/manufacturer of the aircraft, or more usually the agency certifying
the airworthiness of the aircraft, decided (normally after flight testing)
that the natural indications associated with high angle of attack flight in
the aircraft were not sufficient to provide adequate warning of an impending
stall to an average (for certification purposes) pilot.
The classic warning indication typical of most light aircraft is buffeting
of the aft fuselage and tail surface or the flight controls as separated
flow from the inboard sections of the wing strikes the aft fuselage and tail
surfaces of the aircraft. Due to design considerations such as high mounted
tailplanes (a 'Tee' tail), wing sweep, airfoil choice, aspect ratio, amount
of wing incidence "washout", etc. there are some aircraft that have little
or no warning of an impending stall that might lead to a departure from
controlled flight. In some cases the consequences of a stall may be such
that a stall has to be avoided at all costs so a "belt and suspenders"
approach is used to avoid this. Some large aircraft with high tails and
swept wings when stalled have insufficient nose down pitch capability to
unstall themselves, a mushing descent into the ground usually results. Thus
stall warning "stick shakers" and even "stick pushers" are used in most
higher performance aircraft such as jets and airliners.
My impression of the two RV series aircraft I have flown regularly into
practice stalls (RV-3, RV-6A) is that they do not provide much advance
warning in the form of airframe/stick buffet when flown into the usual 1 G,
slow deceleration, level flight, power on stall. There are lots of other
indications in form of pitch attitude, control feel, etc. that say a stall
is imminent but the "buffet symptom" is not there and rather suddenly the
aircraft "breaks" with one wing or the other dropping. A quick release of
back pressure of course reduces the angle of attack and the aircraft is
flying again. Pulling hard in a "wind-up turn" maneuver to induce a high-G,
aka "accelerated stall", situation in my experience provides reasonable
pre-stall buffet in an RV series aircraft due most likely to the higher
speed of the airflow striking the aft fuselage and tail. Recovery is again
almost instantaneous with the release of back-pressure.
In the homebuilt aircraft sector, everyone gets to be their own test pilot
and certifying authority. So the bottom line is test your own personal RV's
stall characteristics and if you don't consider the aircraft's inherent
stall warning characteristics are adequate for "YOUR" own personal purposes,
install whatever AOA gauges, warnings lights, tones, horns, etc. you feel
will do the job. I saw/see no need to install such devices in my two RVs.
Others will certainly see things differently.
In my own flying, I expect I would be considered somewhat aggressive in the
angle of bank I use in the traffic pattern. In this, I feel I am making an
appropriate balance between the danger and consequences of stalling the
aircraft (which I feel to be minimal) versus the increased probability of
collision due to loss of look-out capability in an extended (in terms of
time spent in a banked attitude) turn which are serious and quite likely to
be fatal.
In my own view, it is those who fly shallow banked, poorly co-ordinated,
turns close to the ground who are in danger of the stall, loss-of-control,
accident. Yes, a steeply bank aircraft will "stall" at a higher speed but
will "unstall" almost instantaneously when/if the back pressure being held
for the turn is released. The aircraft's wings can then be levelled through
normal use of the ailerons and a climb attitude easily achieved. The "safe &
careful" guy turning final onspeed with 10-15 deg of bank has no reserve of
airspeed should he stall, has to get the nose well down to gain airspeed (a
highly unnatural action when down low) and then has to be quite careful
about the use of the ailerons when levelling the wings before raising the
nose to start climbing. There are also aerodynamic factors such as downwash
from the wing which can reduce the nose up stick authority in a steep turn
in some aircraft such that there is insufficient control effect to stall the
aircraft compared to wings level flight (however RVs have highly effective
elevators and this effect is not noticeable in my RV experience).
Not many aircraft will enter and stabilize in a spin from 500 feet AGL, it
is usually just a quick 90 deg to 180 deg turn before the aircraft hits the
ground well nose down; thus multi-turn spin and spin recovery practice at
altitude is mostly useless in the traffic pattern, IMHO. Time spent in
recognizing and countering an impending departure from controlled flight is
far more useful in avoiding traffic pattern accidents in my view.
Finally, here is a link to an excellent online aerodynamics text:
http://www.av8n.com/how/ . This is an really outstanding, pilot-oriented,
description of classical low speed aerodynamics and well worth having a
browse through when looking for explanations of why an aircraft stalls, the
difference between sustained banked flight vs. transient conditions, etc.
Jim Oke
Wpg, MB
RV-3, RV-6A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Here is my 2 cents on all this with no flame intended to those who want
> the
> stall devices.
>
> In VFR weather, the entire panel should not be needed in order to make a
> good landing. I used to race cars, road racing requires a good feel
> through
> your hands and rear end while doing 4 wheel drifts around the course. For
> me this has transferred over to flying, I can tell you what the plane is
> doing by sound and vibration. I once forgot to remove the pitot tube
> cover,
> continued on and landed at my destination and landed by feel, it was a non
> issue. If you can not feel what your plane is doing then you had better
> rely on some sort of stall warning device I guess. This also reminds me of
> people in other posts who have commented about how fast the RV's pick up
> speed. Well yea, for me they do until about 210 MPH then there are all
> sorts of "signs" that let you know things are changing. Some people have
> commented on hitting 260 MPH while looking at a map!!!! My question is ho
> can you not feel/hear that? Being in tune with your plane is
> vital........of course VFR conditions only.
>
>
> At 09:47 AM 11/11/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>>
>>The LRI (Lift Reserve Indicator) in my RV6A was my primary reference when
>>(as you may recall) I posted about an incident where my static tube was
>>pinched and I lost ASI, VSI, ALT, upon take off in a busy traffic pattern
>>and decided to fly on rather than get back in the pattern without those
>>indicators...my LRI was critical for landing, and is ALWAYS, the
>>indicator I refer to on rotation and while doing pattern turns, etc.
>>
>>I may not be old, fat, and have 50,000-hours in WW2, but I know what's
>>important !!
>>
>>John at Salida, CO
>>
>>
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
Message 43
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--> RV-List message posted by: <dwhite17@columbus.rr.com>
yes please. I don't have the issue you are referring. I'd appreciate the
diagram very much.
thanks for the reply. Very helpful.
Message 44
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Thats to bad Shemp, :-)
Jerry
do not archive
Jeff Dowling wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling@earthlink.net>
>
>Not everyone has your skill Jerry.
>
>do not archive
>
>Shemp
>
>
>
>
Message 45
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--> RV-List message posted by: "William Davis" <rvpilot@access4less.net>
Guys,
In my tools for sale post a few days ago, I forgot to mention a few goodies that
are included.
Pneumatic 90 Deg. angle drill (worn but still works good)
Big collection of 1/4-28 drill bits
Metal shrinker
Rivit cutter
Rivit fan spacing tool
Instrument panel hole punch, does both 3 1/8 & 2 1/4 holes
skin flanging tool
Imperial 1/4" tubing bender
Ridgid 3/8" tubing bender
Hose mandrels for making up Aeroquip hoses
Toggle clamps
Bill Davis
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning (opinionated) |
--> RV-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
> What really amazes me about this discussion is how many highly experienced
> pilots with two lifetimes of experience tend to belittle the addition of a
> safety device that can be added for as little as twenty dollars. Really
> gentlemen, there are low time pilots reading your comments and you may
> dissuade them from having an item in their aircraft that "may" increase
the
> safety level for those who do not "fly enough".
Jim said "George has a point".
George says -
Thanks gentleman for an interesting discussion, however I think that I may
not have made my point.
My point is that no matter how good you are (or think you are) there are
situations for which you cannot fully train yourself and that is when a
inexpensive safety device such as stall warning or AOA may be instrumental
in a successful conclusion to your flight.
One respected pilot wrote, RV's give a (marginal) buffet warning before the
stall and with proficiency it is easily recognized, and I agree, but my
point is would you recognize this pre-stall buffet if the aircraft was
shaking violently because the prop spinner is coming off, and the airspeed
indicator is just a blur, I think not!
Another experienced pilot points out that we can take off and fly quite
safely with the pitot tube plugged by wasps, and I agree, it is actually
quite easy to fly without airspeed. Everyone should practice flying with the
airspeed indicator covered to cater for this non-normal procedure. But step
this non-normal up one level to a true emergency, a flock of geese took out
your airspeed plus one, with no boarding pass, came through the canopy
breaking your glasses and shaking you up, your aircraft is now vibrating,
has more drag, lots of noise and you are having trouble seeing - now will a
inexpensive safety device be helpful??
And from the tone of some posts I think that some respected pilots have
fallen into the same trap as myself.
When I was 19 and had 300 hours I could make perfect landings and really did
know everything there was about flying, except for one puzzling thing, why
did VFR pilots fly into IFR conditions. Not flying enough or were they just
not as good as me?
By the time I was in my thirties I was a 737 Captain and our company was
giving us quarterly recurrent simulator training.
I booked extra time and practiced every emergency the simulator could
reproduce, manual reversions, engine fires, single engine go-around, they
were all a piece of cake. My attitude was "show me something I can't
handle". Of course that was before we knew about the rudder hard over
problem. (sidebar - later when we went to bi-annual two day training
sessions they were more humbling - there really is a difference between
practicing quarterly or bi-annually).
Now as a retired 747 captain I realize that some of my attitudes were
downright dumb because I was only looking at my own narrow little envelope.
I now consider myself a student pilot again.
To reiterate, my point is this, it really doesn't matter if one adds or
leaves out any safety device, that is for each individual builder to decide.
However in my opinion, more experienced pilots should not belittle any
device that may be beneficial to those with less experience!
George in Langley
Message 47
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|
Seal-Send-Time: Wed, 10 Nov 2004 21:02:18 -0800
--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Robbins" <robbinsrv8@msn.com>
Time: 09:53:06 PM PST US
From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
Subject: RV-List: AOA
--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
. . I really think that than AOA indicator (with a warning tone into the audio
system) should
be high on every RVers need list. . . . the ease with which the RVs will do steeply
banked turns and still have seemingly unlimited excess power.
Such a thing happened to me early in my RV flying. Pulled hard low in the pattern
to avoid conflicting traffic and noticed all the green, yellow and red LEDs
on my AOA suddenly illuminate. I immediately unloaded and never got a buffet.
Just because I've been in this flying game for 44 years now doesn't mean I
still can't do something stupid and do myself in. My AOA and the controversial
fuselage strakes (for RV-8s only) were worth every penny I paid for them. Send
me a message if you 8 guys want to know more about the strakes. They do make
a difference.
Mike Robbins
RV-8 N88MJ 480 hours
Seattle
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning (opinionated) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
Well said.
I have sorta stayed out of this one.... but
When I was in the military, I was flying the T-37 simulator.
I had a primary emergency (don't remember what the IP threw at me) that I
took care of and happilly landed with the gear horn bleeping in my helmet.
What happened? - He also threw in a hydraulic failure. The gear handle was
down, but I was so complacent that I had the emergency taken care of.
Well, you know. I thought I was home free.
What a sobering moment. I was busy and even with the gear horn, I managed
to ignore that I had no gear. I sat in the sim for 10 minutes. All I
could hear was my breathing - the IP had long since left.
I always think of this when I get to feeling too good about my flying
abilities. When it hits the fan, it has a habit of piling up on your butt.
> [Original Message]
> From: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 11/11/2004 11:25:56 PM
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated)
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
>
>
> > What really amazes me about this discussion is how many highly
experienced
> > pilots with two lifetimes of experience tend to belittle the addition
of a
> > safety device that can be added for as little as twenty dollars. Really
> > gentlemen, there are low time pilots reading your comments and you may
> > dissuade them from having an item in their aircraft that "may" increase
> the
> > safety level for those who do not "fly enough".
>
> Jim said "George has a point".
>
> George says -
>
> Thanks gentleman for an interesting discussion, however I think that I may
> not have made my point.
>
> My point is that no matter how good you are (or think you are) there are
> situations for which you cannot fully train yourself and that is when a
> inexpensive safety device such as stall warning or AOA may be instrumental
> in a successful conclusion to your flight.
>
> One respected pilot wrote, RV's give a (marginal) buffet warning before
the
> stall and with proficiency it is easily recognized, and I agree, but my
> point is would you recognize this pre-stall buffet if the aircraft was
> shaking violently because the prop spinner is coming off, and the airspeed
> indicator is just a blur, I think not!
>
> Another experienced pilot points out that we can take off and fly quite
> safely with the pitot tube plugged by wasps, and I agree, it is actually
> quite easy to fly without airspeed. Everyone should practice flying with
the
> airspeed indicator covered to cater for this non-normal procedure. But
step
> this non-normal up one level to a true emergency, a flock of geese took
out
> your airspeed plus one, with no boarding pass, came through the canopy
> breaking your glasses and shaking you up, your aircraft is now vibrating,
> has more drag, lots of noise and you are having trouble seeing - now will
a
> inexpensive safety device be helpful??
>
> And from the tone of some posts I think that some respected pilots have
> fallen into the same trap as myself.
> When I was 19 and had 300 hours I could make perfect landings and really
did
> know everything there was about flying, except for one puzzling thing, why
> did VFR pilots fly into IFR conditions. Not flying enough or were they
just
> not as good as me?
>
> By the time I was in my thirties I was a 737 Captain and our company was
> giving us quarterly recurrent simulator training.
> I booked extra time and practiced every emergency the simulator could
> reproduce, manual reversions, engine fires, single engine go-around, they
> were all a piece of cake. My attitude was "show me something I can't
> handle". Of course that was before we knew about the rudder hard over
> problem. (sidebar - later when we went to bi-annual two day training
> sessions they were more humbling - there really is a difference between
> practicing quarterly or bi-annually).
> Now as a retired 747 captain I realize that some of my attitudes were
> downright dumb because I was only looking at my own narrow little
envelope.
> I now consider myself a student pilot again.
>
> To reiterate, my point is this, it really doesn't matter if one adds or
> leaves out any safety device, that is for each individual builder to
decide.
> However in my opinion, more experienced pilots should not belittle any
> device that may be beneficial to those with less experience!
>
> George in Langley
>
>
Message 49
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|
DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=pU6W0HtyGsePryPwu7j5bWVAtpQ4k/hnL5cCnGw+9csApgyQAO+WZ7dg2dp/vJfS1epO75g59rV3uYt44ur7UKlpWY/+EPfwOaJlZt7GlKHuOTbktPwfN2FQZZnqTL1w7lahLq1wF9GP4JVlUv2Iqz8dMZu8OM2OBFXRQXfioEc=
;
| Subject: | Wiring for 2 Comms - no audio panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: dag adamson <dag_adamson@yahoo.com>
Hello-
I have decided to install a second com in my Rv-8. I just have an intercom - no
audio panel switching unit. I thought someone told me that there were two
pins I needed to toggle between the two comms.
Is it:
(1) push to talk (which is ultimately grounded when you press the key)
and
(2) mike high?
Thanks
Dag
*****************
Dag Adamson
617 513 1182
Cambridge, MA
Denver, CO
*****************
---------------------------------
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Wiring for 2 Comms - no audio panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
dag adamson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: dag adamson <dag_adamson@yahoo.com>
>
>Hello-
>
>I have decided to install a second com in my Rv-8. I just have an intercom -
no audio panel switching unit. I thought someone told me that there were two
pins I needed to toggle between the two comms.
>
>Is it:
>
>(1) push to talk (which is ultimately grounded when you press the key)
>and
>(2) mike AUDIO (not high?)
>
And (3) headphone audio.
Can be done with one 3pdt switch.
Linn
>
>Thanks
>Dag
>
>
>*****************
>Dag Adamson
>617 513 1182
>Cambridge, MA
>Denver, CO
>*****************
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
Message 51
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Open In FLight |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff and
stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It
closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the
other latch the handle.
----- Original Message -----
From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
> --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
> I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I
> might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway end
> for fear of it opening further un flight.
>
> Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by itself.
I
> believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only
open
> a few inches.
> What are the groups experiences?
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 52
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clamav-milter version 0.80j
on zoot.lafn.org
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
No one has any comments on this one???
Do not archive
Curt Reimer wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mts.net>
>
>
>
>Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one of
>the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall
>speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as the
>load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can be
>in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight
>and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the
>pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not pulling
>any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On
>the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and
>level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated
>stall.
>
>What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of bank,
>the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn increases, until at
>90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold altitude. But even
>that goes out the window when you start getting into high power-to-weight
>ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level, knife edge flight is
>obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only seeing 1 G and still holding level
>flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree base-to-final turn but letting the
>altitude bleed off and keeping the airspeed up and the Gs low and be nowhere
>near the stall.
>
>I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high Gs at low
>altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an eye on
>your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked turn, keep the nose
>down, the Gs low and the airspeed up.
>
>As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they seem like a
>good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low altitude. The
>alternative is to just stay away from the edge.
>
>Curt
>RV-6 C-GACR
>240 hours
>
>
>
>
Message 53
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I'd like to hear about why you put strakes on and what their effect is.
Michael Robbins wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Robbins" <robbinsrv8@msn.com>
>
>Time: 09:53:06 PM PST US
>From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>Subject: RV-List: AOA
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>
> . . I really think that than AOA indicator (with a warning tone into the audio
system) should
>be high on every RVers need list. . . . the ease with which the RVs will do steeply
>banked turns and still have seemingly unlimited excess power.
>
>
>Such a thing happened to me early in my RV flying. Pulled hard low in the pattern
to avoid conflicting traffic and noticed all the green, yellow and red LEDs
on my AOA suddenly illuminate. I immediately unloaded and never got a buffet.
Just because I've been in this flying game for 44 years now doesn't mean I
still can't do something stupid and do myself in. My AOA and the controversial
fuselage strakes (for RV-8s only) were worth every penny I paid for them.
Send me a message if you 8 guys want to know more about the strakes. They do
make a difference.
>
>Mike Robbins
>RV-8 N88MJ 480 hours
>Seattle
>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning (opinionated) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
George,
Thanks very much for the sensible comments from an experienced pilot. I've
happily used the list search engine for the last couple of years and found
it very helpful in getting answers to technical questions during the
construction of my 4, but have not participated in the email side of things.
Recently, I became a full fledged member of the list and have enjoyed the
daily emails, but am dismayed by the typical macho cr*p that gets spread
around on here. Whenever topics concerning safety come up, it's always the
same old b.s: "I'm such a great pilot that I don't need it. Why, when I
sarted flying they didn't even have planes. We'd have to rope and saddle a
pteradactyl!" or some such bull. It gets real old. When I first started
flying, one of these old cowboys told me that wearing seatbelts while at
altitude was not required and of no use. That very same day, while flying
around with my girlfriend, the right door flew open while doing a steep
turn. I am absolutely certain that she would have fallen to her death had I
taken that old blowhard's advice. Do you think he would have gone with me to
explain things to her parents? The bottom line is that you don't equip a
plane with safety equipment for when things go right, it's for when things
go wrong -- and things do go wrong. If someone wants to try to make their
plane goof proof, I say more power to 'em.
Steve Zicree
P.S. I remember watching my dad cut the seatbelts out of a brand new car
when I was a boy -- called em newfangled cr*p.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GMC" <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated)
> --> RV-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
>
>
> > What really amazes me about this discussion is how many highly
experienced
> > pilots with two lifetimes of experience tend to belittle the addition of
a
> > safety device that can be added for as little as twenty dollars. Really
> > gentlemen, there are low time pilots reading your comments and you may
> > dissuade them from having an item in their aircraft that "may" increase
> the
> > safety level for those who do not "fly enough".
>
> Jim said "George has a point".
>
> George says -
>
> Thanks gentleman for an interesting discussion, however I think that I may
> not have made my point.
>
> My point is that no matter how good you are (or think you are) there are
> situations for which you cannot fully train yourself and that is when a
> inexpensive safety device such as stall warning or AOA may be instrumental
> in a successful conclusion to your flight.
>
> One respected pilot wrote, RV's give a (marginal) buffet warning before
the
> stall and with proficiency it is easily recognized, and I agree, but my
> point is would you recognize this pre-stall buffet if the aircraft was
> shaking violently because the prop spinner is coming off, and the airspeed
> indicator is just a blur, I think not!
>
> Another experienced pilot points out that we can take off and fly quite
> safely with the pitot tube plugged by wasps, and I agree, it is actually
> quite easy to fly without airspeed. Everyone should practice flying with
the
> airspeed indicator covered to cater for this non-normal procedure. But
step
> this non-normal up one level to a true emergency, a flock of geese took
out
> your airspeed plus one, with no boarding pass, came through the canopy
> breaking your glasses and shaking you up, your aircraft is now vibrating,
> has more drag, lots of noise and you are having trouble seeing - now will
a
> inexpensive safety device be helpful??
>
> And from the tone of some posts I think that some respected pilots have
> fallen into the same trap as myself.
> When I was 19 and had 300 hours I could make perfect landings and really
did
> know everything there was about flying, except for one puzzling thing, why
> did VFR pilots fly into IFR conditions. Not flying enough or were they
just
> not as good as me?
>
> By the time I was in my thirties I was a 737 Captain and our company was
> giving us quarterly recurrent simulator training.
> I booked extra time and practiced every emergency the simulator could
> reproduce, manual reversions, engine fires, single engine go-around, they
> were all a piece of cake. My attitude was "show me something I can't
> handle". Of course that was before we knew about the rudder hard over
> problem. (sidebar - later when we went to bi-annual two day training
> sessions they were more humbling - there really is a difference between
> practicing quarterly or bi-annually).
> Now as a retired 747 captain I realize that some of my attitudes were
> downright dumb because I was only looking at my own narrow little
envelope.
> I now consider myself a student pilot again.
>
> To reiterate, my point is this, it really doesn't matter if one adds or
> leaves out any safety device, that is for each individual builder to
decide.
> However in my opinion, more experienced pilots should not belittle any
> device that may be beneficial to those with less experience!
>
> George in Langley
>
>
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