Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:10 AM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kathleen@rv7.us)
2. 12:12 AM - Re: Stall warning etc. (Todd Bartrim)
3. 03:07 AM - looking for (Jim Jewell)
4. 05:39 AM - Re: AOA clamav-milter version (RV_8 Pilot)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (RV_8 Pilot)
6. 05:56 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (RV_8 Pilot)
7. 05:57 AM - Re: AOA (Jim Gray)
8. 05:58 AM - Re: AOA (Larry Bowen)
9. 06:07 AM - O-320 oil temps (Johnny Johnson)
10. 06:15 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski)
11. 06:27 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Scott Bilinski)
12. 06:42 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (John Furey)
13. 06:49 AM - Re: RV-9A QB rivet access. (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
14. 07:08 AM - HUD display of AOA [was Re: Re: Stall warning etc.] (David Carter)
15. 07:15 AM - Re: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Larry Pardue)
16. 07:26 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Larry Bowen)
17. 07:57 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (RV_8 Pilot)
18. 08:08 AM - Stall Training (Valovich, Paul)
19. 08:10 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (James E. Clark)
20. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (steve zicree)
21. 08:31 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Scott Bilinski)
22. 08:37 AM - Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" (Tony Marshall)
23. 08:46 AM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Howard Walrath)
24. 08:47 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott.Fink@microchip.com)
25. 09:01 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
26. 09:08 AM - RV 10 simulator (Evan and Megan Johnson)
27. 09:14 AM - Re: Stall Training (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
28. 09:15 AM - Re: Stall Training (linn walters)
29. 09:29 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski)
30. 10:02 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 (PSPRV6A@aol.com)
31. 10:16 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels)
32. 10:23 AM - TXM-O360 (Maureen & Bob Christensen)
33. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 (Sam Buchanan)
34. 10:31 AM - Re: TXM-O360 (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
35. 10:40 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
36. 10:41 AM - Re: Stall Training (Dwight Frye)
37. 11:15 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski)
38. 11:33 AM - Re: Stall Training (steve zicree)
39. 11:37 AM - Re: Stall Training (Bob 1)
40. 11:38 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels)
41. 11:48 AM - Re: TXM-O360 (James H Nelson)
42. 11:52 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski)
43. 11:55 AM - Re: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" (Ralph E. Capen)
44. 12:06 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels)
45. 12:27 PM - hand held radio (Evan and Megan Johnson)
46. 01:02 PM - Re: hand held radio (David E. Nelson)
47. 01:02 PM - Re: hand held radio (linn walters)
48. 01:49 PM - Re: hand held radio (CBRxxDRV@aol.com)
49. 02:16 PM - Re: AOA (Bob)
50. 02:19 PM - Re: hand held radio (Stein Bruch)
51. 02:33 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Tracy Crook)
52. 03:18 PM - Re: Stall Training (David Carter)
53. 03:58 PM - Re: Stall Training (Scott VanArtsdalen)
54. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Tom Gummo)
55. 04:36 PM - planes are fun (steve zicree)
56. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (923te)
57. 05:13 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (cecilth@juno.com)
58. 05:36 PM - Re: Stall Training (Louis Willig)
59. 05:51 PM - Re: Stall Training (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
60. 06:01 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
61. 06:02 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kathleen@rv7.us)
62. 06:02 PM - Re: planes are fun (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
63. 07:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Edward Cole)
64. 07:49 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
65. 08:04 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jerry Springer)
66. 08:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
67. 08:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Sam Buchanan)
68. 08:44 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
69. 08:57 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jerry Springer)
70. 08:59 PM - Re: Stall Training (Ed Holyoke)
71. 09:30 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
72. 09:30 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
73. 09:57 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree)
74. 10:11 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen)
75. 10:26 PM - Re: Stall Training (DejaVu)
76. 10:35 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (James E. Clark)
77. 11:52 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while
you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach
45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
and pull and pull...
Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
Kathleen Evans
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff and
stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It
closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the
other latch the handle.
----- Original Message -----
From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
> --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
> I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I
> might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway end
> for fear of it opening further un flight.
>
> Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by itself.
I
> believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only
open
> a few inches.
> What are the groups experiences?
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Todd Bartrim" <haywire@telus.net>
I've tried to resist getting into this due to a busy schedule, but....
I installed the PSS-AOA Sport when building, then after completion added the
Dynon and the AOA probe. Both are excellent. When I installed the Dynon I
thought I might remove the PSS AOA and sell it, but instead I've installed
it into the glaresheild, facing up to give me a heads-up display, which
works Ok in sunlight and of coarse great on cloudy days. Having learned to
fly in my own creation, I've little flying experience without an AOA, but
feel it is an extremely valuable tool which not only adds to flight safety,
it allows me to make my landings consistently short and precise, something
that is important to me as I work on building a difficult and challenging
future strip at home.
I like these AOA's so much that I will definitely keep both of them. An
experienced pilot that has never had one, probably wouldn't use it if it was
in the panel, but any low-time, new, or non-pilots out there that are
currently building would do well to strongly consider one of these.
Also, don't assume that I've become reliant on this gizmo, as I have
learned the "feel" of my plane, but I'd sooner lose my ASI, than one of
these.
Ps. Sometime ago somebody was asking about the Dynon AOA and I didn't see
any replies. The PSS-AOA actually measures AOA, while the Dynon is more of
an "inferential" measurement, so I didn't expect it to be as accurate. But
I've found that it very closely follows the PSS, so is every bit as
accurate. The biggest advantages to the PSS-AOA is that it has an audible
output which is valuable, (the new Dynon is supposed to have this), it does
a self test every time it turns on and notifies you if it fails (power it up
before removing snow from the wings(covering pressure port)and it will
notify you of an error) and that it can be mounted to give a heads-up
display, while the Dynon display can be slightly cluttered (still love it
though). Anybody using or planning on a Dynon really should pop the extra
couple hundred bucks, for what really is the best priced heated pitot tube
on the market, and get an AOA included!
Pss. Anybody wanna buy my old (almost new) heated pitot tube?
Todd Bartrim
RV9Endurance
13B Turbo Rotary
C-FSTB
http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm
"The world will always have a place for those that bring hard
work and determination to the things they do."
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
I am looking for Norman Hunger,
If you are monitoring the list norman please get in touch.
Jim in Kelowna
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: AOA clamav-milter version |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
I think he's right on...
Bryan -8 680 hrs
>No one has any comments on this one???
>
>Do not archive
>
>Curt Reimer wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mts.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one
>of
> >the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall
> >speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as
>the
> >load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can
>be
> >in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight
> >and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the
> >pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not
>pulling
> >any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall.
>On
> >the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight
>and
> >level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated
> >stall.
> >
> >What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of
>bank,
> >the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn increases, until
>at
> >90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold altitude. But
>even
> >that goes out the window when you start getting into high power-to-weight
> >ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level, knife edge flight is
> >obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only seeing 1 G and still holding
>level
> >flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree base-to-final turn but letting the
> >altitude bleed off and keeping the airspeed up and the Gs low and be
>nowhere
> >near the stall.
> >
> >I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high Gs at low
> >altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an eye
>on
> >your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked turn, keep the nose
> >down, the Gs low and the airspeed up.
> >
> >As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they seem like a
> >good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low altitude.
>The
> >alternative is to just stay away from the edge.
> >
> >Curt
> >RV-6 C-GACR
> >240 hours
> >
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning (opinionated) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>That very same day, while flying
>around with my girlfriend, the right door flew open while doing a steep
>turn. I am absolutely certain that she would have fallen to her death had I
>taken that old blowhard's advice.
Guess I better *triple* check the seat belts before reaching over and
popping my students door open in the pattern!! ;) ;)
Was it a cross-controlled steep turn? Why the lateral g's pulling your
girlfriend toward the open door? What kind of door popped open far enough
to someone to fall out of? A Cub?
I'm just gig'n you a little. Your point is well taken - just sounded kind of
dramatic.
Bryan
do not archive
Message 6
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
I've cjecked into this and the only one I know of was an -8.
Bryan
>You unlatch your slider and pull
>and pull and pull...
>
>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
>Kathleen Evans
>www.rv7.us
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Gray <n747jg@earthlink.net>
One of those famous aviation truisms.......why do we do it that way?
Because weve always done it that way.
It doesnt mean its the best way to do it.
To those that feel that AOA is not a valuable addition to an aircraft
because they have survived 20 years, or 30 years or 40 years, without
it, I think you are missing the point. Because you survived without it
doesnt mean its the better way to fly.
airplanes with and without AOA, there is no question in my mind that
AOA is better than no AOA. The reasons would be too lengthy to list
here.
V/R
Jim Gray
RV-8 with AOA under construction
Message 8
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Makes sense to me. It's all about angle of attack -- wing versus relative
wind. Not wing versus horizon.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dave Bristol [mailto:bj034@lafn.org]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:37 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
> No one has any comments on this one???
>
> Do not archive
>
> Curt Reimer wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mts.net>
> >
> >
> >
> >Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed
> whatsoever. This is
> >one of the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply
> >that stall speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed
> >increases as the load factor increases, period. If you
> aren't pulling
> >any Gs then you can be in a 90 degree bank and your stall
> speed is the
> >same as it is in straight and level flight. I often find myself with
> >60-80 degrees of bank in the pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but
> >you'd better believe I'm not pulling any significant Gs at
> the time and
> >my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On the other hand, you
> can be in a
> >nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and level, but if
> you pull hard
> >at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated stall.
> >
> >What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of
> >bank, the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn
> increases,
> >until at 90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold
> >altitude. But even that goes out the window when you start
> getting into
> >high power-to-weight ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level,
> >knife edge flight is obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only
> seeing 1 G
> >and still holding level flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree
> >base-to-final turn but letting the altitude bleed off and
> keeping the
> >airspeed up and the Gs low and be nowhere near the stall.
> >
> >I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high
> Gs at low
> >altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an
> >eye on your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked
> turn, keep
> >the nose down, the Gs low and the airspeed up.
> >
> >As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they
> seem like
> >a good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low
> >altitude. The alternative is to just stay away from the edge.
> >
> >Curt
> >RV-6 C-GACR
> >240 hours
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> =========
> =========
> Matronics Forums.
> =========
> =========
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
The oil temp on my RV-3 with an O320 generally runs 150 at most, no matter
what. No, I havent calibrated the senders, but two different ones agree
within a few degrees (the original bulb and the sender on the currently
installed GRT engine monitor). From many comments lately on the list, it
looks like O-320s in general run cool. People do all sorts of stuff that
amounts to different ways of blocking off the oil cooler air inlet and/or
outlet to try to get the oil to warm up.
This brings up an obvious question. Do we really need an oil cooler on an
O-320? Has anyone gone the no-cooler route or have some words of wisdom for
me?
Thanks
Johnny Johnson
49MM RV-3A 160 Lyc
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to
just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out?
At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while
>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach
>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
>and pull and pull...
>
>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
>Kathleen Evans
>www.rv7.us
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
>
>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff and
>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It
>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the
>other latch the handle.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
> >
> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I
> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway end
> > for fear of it opening further un flight.
> >
> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by itself.
>I
> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only
>open
> > a few inches.
> > What are the groups experiences?
> >
> >
> > ---
> >
> >
>
>---
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: O-320 oil temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Why is there oil going through the cooler at 150?
At 08:04 AM 11/12/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" <Johnny@wiktel.com>
>
>The oil temp on my RV-3 with an O320 generally runs 150 at most, no matter
>what. No, I havent calibrated the senders, but two different ones agree
>within a few degrees (the original bulb and the sender on the currently
>installed GRT engine monitor). From many comments lately on the list, it
>looks like O-320s in general run cool. People do all sorts of stuff that
>amounts to different ways of blocking off the oil cooler air inlet and/or
>outlet to try to get the oil to warm up.
>
>This brings up an obvious question. Do we really need an oil cooler on an
>O-320? Has anyone gone the no-cooler route or have some words of wisdom for
>me?
>
>Thanks
>
>Johnny Johnson
>49MM RV-3A 160 Lyc
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 12
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--> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes
above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone
has the answer.
John
RV6A O-320
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: RV-9A QB rivet access. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Hi Pete,
You mean you're not flying yet, and don't care about AOA stall warning
devices, and flying without latching the canopy?
Just kidding.
I used the edge of a piece of half inch steel plate (actually my back
riveting plate, but its a little big) for a bucking bar to do most of the canopy
sill
rivets, and used pop rivets between the front and rear F-721-A and -B pieces.
Also, you can use the flat side of a punch backed up by a bucking bar some
places. Another trick is to taper the front of the F-721-B to get access to
the bottom of the bolt that holds the roll bar on if yours is a slider.
Hope this helps.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A
N766DH (Flying since July)
In a message dated 11/10/04 9:45:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" <pete.howell@gecko-group.com>
>
> Hello,
>
> I am trying to get access to the rivets under the F-721-B for the F-705 on
> my -9A QB. Is it a case of making some creative bucking bars, or have
> people cut off the slotted flange of the F-721B to get access. Other ideas
> appreciated........
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pete
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning etc.] |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
Todd, I love the "HUD" display thing!
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Bartrim" <haywire@telus.net>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Todd Bartrim" <haywire@telus.net>
>
<snip> I installed the PSS-AOA Sport when building, then after completion
added the
> Dynon and the AOA probe. Both are excellent. When I installed the Dynon I
> thought I might remove the PSS AOA and sell it, but instead I've installed
> it into the glaresheild, facing up to give me a heads-up display, which
> works Ok in sunlight and of coarse great on cloudy days.
> Todd Bartrim
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
Well, none really except it is all true.
One of my favorite maneuvers is a deal where I bank about 120 degrees at
around 60 or 70 knots. This is not part of a roll but just kind of a steep
wingover. Lots of fun, very graceful and not more than about 1.5 G during
the whole thing. Pull up till you are slow, bank to about 90 to 120 degrees
while letting the nose fall through the horizon, then gradually level the
wings and apply back pressure. I never get near stall because I am unloaded
in the steep part of the maneuver. I don't do it low though.
No one has mentioned that an airplane also will not stall going straight up,
even as it reaches 0 airspeed. It will fall though. Not recommended low
either.
Don't have angle of attack in my airplane. Think it would be real nice.
Can't imagine why anyone objects to someone else having it.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
On 11/11/04 10:37 PM, "Dave Bristol" <bj034@lafn.org> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <bj034@lafn.org>
>
> No one has any comments on this one???
>
> Do not archive
>
> Curt Reimer wrote:
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" <cgreimer@mts.net>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one of
>> the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall
>> speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as the
>> load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can be
>> in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight
>> and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the
>> pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not pulling
>> any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On
>> the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and
>> level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated
>> stall.
>>
Message 16
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Never done it. Hope I never have to.
But I installed quick release pins just in case.
http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
> So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to
> blue sky while you chatter into the intercom telling your
> friend how easy it is in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!"
> Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not
> worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
> airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your
> slider and pull and pull and pull...
>
> Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
> Kathleen Evans
> www.rv7.us
Message 17
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--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
and eliminate a serious failure point!!
Will have to look at the flow diagram and see if it can just be removed and
the connection points plugged. I think it can. Anyone know for sure off
the top of their head?
Bryan
do not archive
>Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes
>above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone
>has the answer.
>
>John
>RV6A O-320
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing
something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
occurs?
Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the
pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on
recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the
old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope.
Paul Valovich
Booger
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
Our O-320 runs warm.
On hot days during climb I have seen oil temps as high as 220 I think. Spoke
with Bart about the temps and he said all was well.
On the other hand, getting the EGT and CHT up on our engine is another
story.
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Furey
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:45 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" <john@fureychrysler.com>
>
> Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes
> above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone
> has the answer.
>
> John
> RV6A O-320
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Stall warning (opinionated) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Actually the turn was probably pretty well coordinated (for a low time guy),
but the surprise did cause me to release back pressure kind of suddenly. I
do reach over and check pax's belts now. Plane was a 152. Door didn't fly
completely open, but I'm sure a falling body would open it the rest of the
way. In any case, her can of 7-up is no longer with us. RIP 7-up can.
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated)
> --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>
> >That very same day, while flying
> >around with my girlfriend, the right door flew open while doing a steep
> >turn. I am absolutely certain that she would have fallen to her death had
I
> >taken that old blowhard's advice.
>
> Guess I better *triple* check the seat belts before reaching over and
> popping my students door open in the pattern!! ;) ;)
>
> Was it a cross-controlled steep turn? Why the lateral g's pulling your
> girlfriend toward the open door? What kind of door popped open far enough
> to someone to fall out of? A Cub?
>
> I'm just gig'n you a little. Your point is well taken - just sounded kind
of
> dramatic.
>
> Bryan
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 21
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--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I would think this should be moved over to the Lycoming list to get the answer?
At 09:56 AM 11/12/2004 -0600, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
>
>and eliminate a serious failure point!!
>
>Will have to look at the flow diagram and see if it can just be removed and
>the connection points plugged. I think it can. Anyone know for sure off
>the top of their head?
>
>Bryan
>
>do not archive
>
> >Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes
> >above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone
> >has the answer.
> >
> >John
> >RV6A O-320
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 22
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| Subject: | Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" <tony@lambros.com>
In the not too distant past I came across a posting where someone had improved
(modified) Rich's canopy mod. Now I am unable to find it. As I recall the mod
had to do with the spring loaded canopy stop included with Rich's kit. I would
appreciate hearing (seeing) what that mod looks like. I am getting ready
to install the kit on my 6. Thanks.
Tony Marshall
ArtDeco RV6
www.lambros.com
P.O. Box 906
Polson, MT 59860
800-432-6828 Office
406-249-0835 Cell
Message 23
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
A related question to those posed below is the provision
in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an
emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy
arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they
have found that useful to allow complete removal of the
tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel.
My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and
I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to
jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate
having to try and break out through the canopy when upside
down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent.
During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that
question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they
didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone
who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows
of someone who has.
Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to
> just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out?
>
>
> At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>>
>>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
>>while
>>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
>>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach
>>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
>>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
>>and pull and pull...
>>
>>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>>
>>Kathleen Evans
>>www.rv7.us
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
>>
>>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff
>>and
>>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It
>>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the
>>other latch the handle.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>>
>>
>> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>> >
>> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I
>> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway
>> > end
>> > for fear of it opening further un flight.
>> >
>> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by
>> > itself.
>>I
>> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only
>>open
>> > a few inches.
>> > What are the groups experiences?
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> >
>>
>>---
>>
>>
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
11/12/2004 09:46:59 AM,
Serialize complete at 11/12/2004 09:46:59 AM
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com
Kathleen,
That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That
way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips
from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club.
Scott
Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
11/12/2004 07:12 AM
Please respond to rv-list
To: rv-list@matronics.com
cc:
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to
just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out?
At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
while
>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at
mach
>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
>and pull and pull...
>
>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
>Kathleen Evans
>www.rv7.us
Message 25
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|
| Subject: | Re: O-320 oil temps |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>>>>>>>
My 150 hp E3D with a Positech (new style) cooler rarely gets over 180 during
the summer and I've only see it over 200 on looooong climbs with the ambient
above 90. I do have it firewall mounted and fed with a 3" scat from the left
plenum and have a cockpit adjustable butterfly to control airflow through it.
During the winter it stays shut most of the time to get 180, so maybe I didn't
need all this stuff anyway!
From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark
Message 26
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Anybody know of an RV 10 model for microsoft flight sim 2004?
Thanks in advance...
Evan
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 11/12/2004 10:11:03 AM Central Standard Time,
pvalovich@dcscorp.com writes:
Maybe I'm missing
something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
occurs?
>>>>>>>
I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and he
demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
dirty-side-up before, but we did several more with me on the controls and the big
difference between the first and the rest convinced me that if I had never seen
a
spin, the first time I got into one accidentally I'd be too busy crapping my
drawers to react quickly, regardless of how many times I'd been coached on the
correct recovery or how many times I had practiced stalls. I'd highly recommend
doing spins with a well-qualified instructor during initial training or at
least get it in aero asap. One of those "most valuable moments" I've ever had
in
an airplane!
FWIW-
Mark Phillips
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Valovich, Paul wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
>
>Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
>focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
>seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing
>something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
>isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
>all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
>occurs?
>
I received all my training for my private license in a 2-place Grumman
...... spins prohibited. The first opportunity to practice spins came
in a T-34 (which I used to make many instructors sick .... paybacks are
hell!) and now I do them a lot in my Pitts. I don't agree with not
requiring some spin training for the private. As with comments on the
AOA thread ..... being able to explore the slow edge of flight (and the
onset of a stall/spin scenario) may just save somebody's bacon down the
road when they get complacent. The original Grumman Yankee suffered
from approach to landing stall/spin accidents and garnered an undeserved
reputation ..... but the accidents were due to poor (or no) training
when 150 pilots were transitioning to the little Grummans ..... whose
only requirement was to maintain flying speed ..... a little higher than
the 150's ..... and control sink rate with throttle, not elevator.
Again, if the incident had occured with sufficient altitude recovery is
possible (in the Grumman) if action is taken swiftly. The Grummans
proclivity to spin only occurs outside the normal operating envelope and
illadvised use of the rudder. However, with the Grumman, you get two
distinct warnings ...... burbling and associated noise as the airflow
over the wing starts to unattach ..... then the stall horn goes off
....... and if you persist in your activity, finally it will stall.
So, what's this got to do with RV's? Well, I've not got much time in
them .... but not one of the aircraft I've flown was without some
buffeting prior to the stall. Depending on the wing shape, AOA, and
airspeed, the time between buffetting and stall can get pretty short.
But it's still there, and not being trained to know what that noise
means leads me to speculate that stall/spin accidents will increase. My
(unsolicited) advice is to get some practice with a pilot experienced in
the same model ...... and go explore the nether regions of the flight
envelope until you're comfortable doing it by yourself ..... bearing in
mind that with a passenger/instructor the airspeeds will be a little
different than with just one pilot. Go out and have fun with your
airplane .... but I have a warning .... if you get into the 'aerobatic'
regions ..... aierbatics can be terribly addictive ..... I know, because
I'm addicted ..... and when the -10 is done, I'll still have two
airplanes for their two different missions.
Linn
>
>
>Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the
>pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on
>recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the
>old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope.
>
>Paul Valovich
>
>Booger
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back approx
.625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound do
no good for me. Dont all slider canopies have to move back before they can
move upward?
At 09:46 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com
>
>Kathleen,
>
>That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That
>way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips
>from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club.
>
>Scott
>
>
>Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>11/12/2004 07:12 AM
>Please respond to rv-list
>
>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> cc:
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
>Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to
>just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out?
>
>
>At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
> >
> >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
>while
> >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
> >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at
>mach
> >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
> >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
> >and pull and pull...
> >
> >Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
> >
> >Kathleen Evans
> >www.rv7.us
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 |
--> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com
Re: Stall warning.
I am a typical 30-year Cessna "driver," 1,100 hours or so. Everone
knows the "sick cat" wail of the Cessna stall warner. It only surprised me only
once, on the well-known tailwind on base leg scenario & saved the day. Once is
enough! Our 6A nearing completion has the Lift Reserve Indicator.
Paul S. Petersen
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back
> approx
> .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound
> do
> no good for me.
Why not? Just pull the pins, slide it back slightly, push up and it's
gone.
Jim Daniels
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" <mchriste@danvilletelco.net>
I am at the point where I need to buy an engine . . . I'm leaning toward the
TXM-O360 from Mattituck/Teledyne . . . this appears to be a professional
shop with a good reputation. Their price is competitive.
Does anyone out there have experience with the TXM-360 and/or Mattituck that
they would be willing to share?
Thanks,
Bob Christensen
RV-8 Builder - SE Iowa
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
PSPRV6A@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com
>
> Re: Stall warning.
> I am a typical 30-year Cessna "driver," 1,100 hours or so. Everone
> knows the "sick cat" wail of the Cessna stall warner. It only surprised me only
> once, on the well-known tailwind on base leg scenario & saved the day. Once
is
> enough! Our 6A nearing completion has the Lift Reserve Indicator.
>
Uh oh........the dasterdly downwind turn demon has reappeared!!!
Bunches of opinions in the archives. :-)
Sam Buchanan (RV-6 with LRI)
http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/liftreserve.htm
Message 34
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--> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
yes, i've ordered stuff from them. No problems. Mahlon represents them and he's
just an awesome "internet resource". Like 'lectric Bob but with a torque wrench
instead of a multi-meter on his desk.
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen"
> <mchriste@danvilletelco.net>
>
> I am at the point where I need to buy an engine . . . I'm leaning toward the
> TXM-O360 from Mattituck/Teledyne . . . this appears to be a professional
> shop with a good reputation. Their price is competitive.
>
> Does anyone out there have experience with the TXM-360 and/or Mattituck that
> they would be willing to share?
>
> Thanks,
> Bob Christensen
> RV-8 Builder - SE Iowa
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
yep, and the one time we took off in an 8 with it partially opened we couldn't
not get it to move no matter how hard pushed. Seems if you are going much higher
than stall speeds the darn air pressure pushing down on the top of the canopy
is like a lock. Which is wierd because the canopy skirt at the rear has a
low pressure and likes to rise and air enters in on the rear seater's neck.
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back approx
> .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound do
> no good for me. Dont all slider canopies have to move back before they can
> move upward?
>
>
> At 09:46 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com
> >
> >Kathleen,
> >
> >That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That
> >way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips
> >from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club.
> >
> >Scott
> >
> >
> >Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >11/12/2004 07:12 AM
> >Please respond to rv-list
> >
> >
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > cc:
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> ><bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >
> >Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to
> >just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out?
> >
> >
> >At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
> > >
> > >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
> >while
> > >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your
> > >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at
> >mach
> > >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
> > >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull
> > >and pull and pull...
> > >
> > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
> > >
> > >Kathleen Evans
> > >www.rv7.us
> >
> >
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote :
>Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
>focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
>seemed to question the need for stall / spin training.
[ ... snip ... ]
I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of morbid
curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else. I
had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a graduated
series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied the
recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue.
I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while the
instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the
stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a vengeance
followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all
I could do was suck in a lot of air.
If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k feet
we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started to
do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The
phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind.
After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and more
turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I had
to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully developed
spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were going
by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with each
one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer.
Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say "yes".
Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :)
-- Dwight
do not archive
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I have
some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am amazed
at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No
insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
At 11:13 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >
> > I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back
> > approx
> > .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound
> > do
> > no good for me.
>
>Why not? Just pull the pins, slide it back slightly, push up and it's
>gone.
>
>Jim Daniels
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Dwight,
My first exposure to spins was exactly as you described. In spite of all my
previous instructor's verbal instructions, I'm pretty certain that without
the first hand training I would not have been able to recover (soiling
underwear is not an approved spin recovery technique).
Steve Zicree
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>
> On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote :
> >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
> >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
> >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training.
> [ ... snip ... ]
>
> I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of morbid
> curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else. I
> had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a graduated
> series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied the
> recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue.
>
> I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while the
> instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the
> stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a vengeance
> followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all
> I could do was suck in a lot of air.
>
> If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k feet
> we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started to
> do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The
> phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind.
>
> After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and more
> turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I had
> to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully developed
> spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were going
> by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with each
> one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer.
>
> Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say
"yes".
> Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :)
>
> -- Dwight
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and
he
> demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
> dirty-side-up before,
>
> Mark Phillips
==================================
Dirty side up????
Are you sure?
Bob
Do not archive
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I
> have
> some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am
> amazed
> at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No
> insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can be
ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it has
(tragically) been proven already?
Jim Daniels
Message 41
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--> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
Bob,
I have a friend who has a Cessna 210 with a turbo normalized 6
cyl. He had Mattituck do the over haul and they did an excellent job.
This is noted from my friend who worked with Malihon and the help and
SERVICE that he got from them. Many will build but if things don't go
exactly the way you want , the service from them to get you on your way
is worth a few bucks.
I will be needing a new engine and they will get my order.
Jim
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is
possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think it is
going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry the
canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better idea,
it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over. I just
dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I guess that
was my main point. Im done on this topic.
At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >
> > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I
> > have
> > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am
> > amazed
> > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No
> > insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
>
>None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can be
>ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it has
>(tragically) been proven already?
>
>Jim Daniels
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
I'm interested in any improvements there too.
I have installed mine already - but it could be bettter.
Ralph Capen
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Marshall <tony@lambros.com>
Subject: RV-List: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider"
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" <tony@lambros.com>
In the not too distant past I came across a posting where someone had improved
(modified) Rich's canopy mod. Now I am unable to find it. As I recall the mod
had to do with the spring loaded canopy stop included with Rich's kit. I would
appreciate hearing (seeing) what that mod looks like. I am getting ready
to install the kit on my 6. Thanks.
Tony Marshall
ArtDeco RV6
www.lambros.com
P.O. Box 906
Polson, MT 59860
800-432-6828 Office
406-249-0835 Cell
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> I just
> dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I guess
> that
> was my main point. Im done on this topic.
Agreed, I'm not trying to trivialize the point, and it is likely not
possible in all situations. Remember, though, that testing the waters
trying to partially open your canopy on a fun flight is entirely
different than a real life emergency situation. I'm guessing that if
that sucker *must* go, you'll come up with a lot more effort.
Jim
Message 45
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in my
C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on buying a
new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either in the
Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until I am ready
to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using and where
the best deals are.
Thanks a bunch....Evan
www.evansaviationproducts.com
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: hand held radio |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" <david.nelson@pobox.com>
Hi Evan,
I've been using the Icom IC-A5 as my standy and have been happy with it.
Features I like:
- BNC antenna
- Lighted display _and_ numbers
- Water resistant
- Small (I actually carry it in my Lightspeed headset bag w/ the headset)
- WX freqs
When I purchased it, ICOM had a special going on and I got the NiMH and
charger.
A pretty good desc is here:
http://www.acespilotshop.com/pilot-supplies/handheld/icom-a5-com.htm
Regards,
/\/elson
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
> Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in
> my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on
> buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use
> either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to
> use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is
> using and where the best deals are. Thanks a bunch....Evan
> www.evansaviationproducts.com
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: hand held radio |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
>Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in my
C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on buying
a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either in the
Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until I am
ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using and where
the best deals are.
>Thanks a bunch....Evan
>www.evansaviationproducts.com
>
You might scour the radio shops for a used one instead of going the
handheld route. Check TAP too. Even Ebay. If/when you go to sell the
airplane, not having a functioning radio will take a big bite out of the
selling price. I guess it's kinda like pay me now or pay me later. You
may not be satisfied using the handheld as a primary radio ...... I use
the Icom ICA-4 in my Pitts, and its a PITA to tune and only has 10
stored freqs.
Linn
Linn
>
>
>
>
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: hand held radio |
--> RV-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com
In a message dated 11/12/04 3:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time,
evmeg@snowcrest.net writes:
> Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio
> in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on
> buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either
> in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until
> I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using
> and where the best deals are.
>
Best deal I can't tell you, but I have been running a Icom A-5 in
my champ for 4 years and it has been a good investment.
I just sold the champ and kept the radio.
do not archive
RV-4
RV-8 QB
Sal Capra
Lakeland, FL.
My Home Page
Message 49
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|
on opie.wvnet.edu
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <panamared3@brier.net>
The debate over the AOA/stall warning device is not about how good it is or
how many lives it will save. I doubt anyone is saying that it is totally
useless.
What some of us are disagreeing about is the comment heard from many
proponents:
"Every RV should have one"
The hidden meaning is:
1. How can you fly without one.
2. If you fly without one you are a stupid reckless pilot that should be
banned from the airways.
3. I know best what you need in your RV (in some cases made by people who
don't fly RVs who based their judgments on the Airlines or the Military)
What we are talking about is risk management. Does the pilot think he can
handle the risks or not?
For the AOA proponents, would you ground your aircraft if your AOA was
inoperative? Do you consider it mandatory for any flight?
Bob
RV6 NightFighter
Message 50
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Hi Even,
ICOM does indeed make the same radio TSO'd that you could install in your
C-150. It's about $100.00 higher than the non-TSO'd one, meaning you should
be able to find them for around $800.00.
That being said, you should also be able to pickup a good handheld Nav/Comm
(like an Icom for example - it's what I use) for around $400.00 (IC-A22 or
A23). The comm only is around $350.00. The JHP-520 Nav/Com is also about
$350-400.00.
If you can't find a deal on one, contact me off list and I'll hook you up.
I have acess to the above units at the above pricing.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
RV6's, Minneapolis
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and Megan
Johnson
Subject: RV-List: hand held radio
--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
<evmeg@snowcrest.net>
Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in
my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on
buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use
either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to
use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else
is using and where the best deals are.
Thanks a bunch....Evan
www.evansaviationproducts.com
Message 51
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|
| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:29:21 -0500
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" <lors01@msn.com>
Second hand info, but I hear the -4 canopy departs the airframe immediately after
unlatching it.
Tracy Crook
--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com<mailto:rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>>
I've cjecked into this and the only one I know of was an -8.
Bryan
>You unlatch your slider and pull
>and pull and pull...
>
>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
>Kathleen Evans
>www.rv7.us
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
This FAA sanctioned/fostered/promoted "approach to stalls"/"start recovery
at the first indication of a stall" thing is the single most serious safety
problem that exists in this country, in General Aviation - in my opinion.
It is the only aviation issue I am absolutely PASSIONATE about.
- All pilots should be - but are not -properly instructed in the
essential knowledge of safe recovery from a stall. The bi-annual reviews
and initial flight instruction have been fatally poisoned by the FAA idiocy
so that I see no evidence of proper instruction and practice.
When I attended AirAdventure at Oshkosh about 3 years ago, three aircraft
crashed due to stall turning final over the course of the event. I went to
the FAA exhibit area and shared my frustration with one of the "Ops" types
there. He listened, agreed, and said, "Why don't you go home and write that
up?" I said to him, "Why don't you - you are on the taxpayer's salary and
are on the inside of the system!" He was silent. Wasn't his job.
No one should die from momentarily stalling an aircraft in the turn to
final. Death follows trying to maneuver the aircraft while STILL STALLED -
trying to roll wings level when one one starts dropping due to being stalled
and riding the aircraft into the ground because the ailerons weren't making
the plane roll out, etc, etc, until he/they impact past inverted and/or way
nose low (unsurvivable).
- Som guys in the F-100 used to do the same thing: Would be at 350KIAS
on base leg in the gunnery pattern and roll into a turn to final. If/when
they pulled too hard/got to a high AOA - not even stalled but "high" - we
eventually learned (John Boyd figured it out and taught everyone else) that
the only way to roll the F-100 at high AOA was stick in the center
(laterally) and use slight rudder to cause slight yaw, which caused POWERFUL
roll in the direction you wanted to roll. It wasn't noticeably
"uncoordinated", was NOT "turning with the rudder" as we sometimes
demonstrate in a Cessna, to show how NOT to turn - it was simply a reality
that the F-100 had such horrendous "adverse yaw" from the "down aileron"
that the aileron would produce more yaw than the rudder. You had to use
rudder to roll - at high AOA. These guys turning final would crash/impact
going the OPPOSITE direction from the target - they would be in a left
pattern, load up the aircraft (increase AOA) and use left aileron - result
was a RIGHT roll away from the target, they'd fight it and put in MORE left
aileron, the airplane would continue to depart to the RIGHT and they'd fly
the plane right into the ground fighting the "roll in the opposite
direction".
Well, what does this have to do with straight wing aircraft which don't have
that much adverse yaw? The simple fact that there IS adverse yaw in all our
straight wing aircraft - the Wright brothers found it and added a rudder to
compensate. Other than crossed controls for slipping on final and/or in the
flare for touchdown in presence of a crosswind, the primary purpose of the
rudder is to cancel out adverse yaw when rolling into and out of turns..
- Guys who have spent their whole life only "APPROACHING a stall" and
never MOMENTARILY play with ailerons IN the stall, don't have a clue that
they can and will actually induce a pro-spin control input by trying to
raise a wing while it is still stalled. That is the whole point of this
discussion - keep the ball in the center and don't try to roll BEFORE you
REDUCE AOA and UNSTALL the wing.
I teach: 1) Reduce AOA (now the wing is no longer stalled) and THEN roll
wings level and use power and pitch to avoid the ground. In a Cessna 172 I
typically lose 50' in the recovery from a straight ahead level flight stall.
If you are turning final, overshooting due to being in too close or being
blown in too close by improperly compensated wind, you abandon the attempt
to align with the runway and go around at some angle to the runway, but you
are alive.
2) You must start your recovery - even when practicing under controlled
condition - before you allow the aircraft to develop ANGULAR MOMENTUM in
roll. Release back pressure (unstall), roll out, and pull up. It is a
simultaneous, instantaneous recovery. NO ONE SHOULD EVER DIE IN A "TURN TO
FINAL STALL".
I demonstrate this to a student with a slow power reduction in wings level
flight holding altitude. I reduce power just enough to let the aircraft
slow enough to stall in level flight. We lose 50' in the recovery, without
even having to add full power.
- After the student sees that the airplane is not going to "flip upside
down and/or spin" when it fully stalls, I then demo it by holding the
aircraft in the stall, with Cessna wheel full back against the mechanical
stop, keeping the ball in the center with the rudder, and watch the vertical
velocity tell us that we are falling at a significant rate. We note
altitude, relax back pressure and add power and recover to level flight -
don't lose much altitude.
Then we do it in a simulated turn to final - pull into a full stall and when
one wing starts to drop, we instantly relax back pressure and roll out
(unstalled) and use pitch and power to recover.
1. Don't try to roll or control the bank angle when stalled.
2. Don't let any roll momentum build up before reducing AOA and recovering.
David Carter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
Subject: RV-List: Stall Training
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" <pvalovich@dcscorp.com>
>
> Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced
> focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
> seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing
> something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane -
> isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in
> all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall
> occurs?
>
>
> Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the
> pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on
> recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the
> old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope.
>
> Paul Valovich
>
> Booger
>
>
Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I can still hear my instructor's voice in my head as we were doing
approach stalls:
"Lower the nose! Level the wings! Add power! When the airspeed is
good, fly out of it."
David Carter wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" <dcarter@datarecall.net>
>No one should die from momentarily stalling an aircraft in the turn to
>final. Death follows trying to maneuver the aircraft while STILL STALLED -
>trying to roll wings level when one one starts dropping due to being stalled
>and riding the aircraft into the ground because the ailerons weren't making
>the plane roll out, etc, etc, until he/they impact past inverted and/or way
>nose low (unsurvivable).
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 54
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| Subject: | Re: re: Stall Warnings, etc |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
One more thought on AOA:
I was trained on AOA and love the system.
Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my
instrument panel.
Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would.
Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my
plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow to
see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a HUD).
My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I
miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system didn't
just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA of
the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise
speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA
increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON
SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to
look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range
and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started
beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could
look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was.
Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and
static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator,
it may show errors too.
A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed
it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall.
What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle
to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway?
What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area
you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the
proper AOA should remain the same.
Tom Gummo
Apple Valley, CA
Harmon Rocket-II
do not archive
http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
Message 55
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--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Aviators,
So I'm standing in the driveway heading out for the usual Friday night drive-thru
fare when I realized my wallet's in the garage. I hit the opener from my car
and when the door comes up what do I see pointing straight at me but my perfect
little RV4 fuse, sitting proudly on it's newly mounted wheels. Suddenly I
feel this silly grin creep across my face. With all the talk of safety and grim
accident reports it's easy to forget why we all do this: Cuz we LOVE airplanes!!
I've loved em since I was tiny and I know you all feel the same. I've dreamt
of building one in my garage since I saw that flock of Teenie's on the cover
of my dad's Popular Mechanics. The cost and the regs and hazards are a hassle,
but having a real plane in my garage is amazing. The other day two little
boys stopped to look at me in the driveway trying to align the wheel pants and
asked if it was a REAL plane. When I told them yes, they both responded in unison
"LUCKY!!!". All I could do was agree.
Steve Zicree
do not archive
Message 56
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| Subject: | Re: re: Stall Warnings, etc |
--> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
Good points Tom.
I wonder how easy it would be for one of the electrical gurus on this list
to make a aural tone annuciator like you describe that would attach to the
PSS AOA system?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>
> One more thought on AOA:
>
>
> I was trained on AOA and love the system.
>
>
> Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my
> instrument panel.
>
>
> Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would.
>
>
> Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my
> plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow
to
> see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a
HUD).
> My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I
> miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system
didn't
> just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA
of
> the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise
> speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA
> increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON
> SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to
> look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range
> and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started
> beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could
> look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was.
>
>
> Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and
> static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator,
> it may show errors too.
>
>
> A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed
> it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall.
> What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle
> to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway?
> What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area
> you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the
> proper AOA should remain the same.
>
>
> Tom Gummo
> Apple Valley, CA
> Harmon Rocket-II
>
> do not archive
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
Seems to me that if you install a 'pull pin' at each side if the canopy
where it connects to the roller (on a slider).
In flight, just pull both pins, undo open the handle, push up on the
canopy, and its gone, period. This is for emergency only. Am I wrong??
Cecil
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> writes:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is
>
> possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think
> it is
> going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry
> the
> canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better
> idea,
> it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over.
> I just
> dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I
> guess that
> was my main point. Im done on this topic.
>
>
> At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> > >
> > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless
> maybe I
> > > have
> > > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and
> I am
> > > amazed
> > > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in
> flight. No
> > > insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
> >
> >None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can
> be
> >ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it
> has
> >(tragically) been proven already?
> >
> >Jim Daniels
> >
> >
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net>
At 02:37 PM 11/12/2004, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
>
> > I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and
>he
> > demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
> > dirty-side-up before,
> >
> > Mark Phillips
>
>==================================
>
>Dirty side up????
>
>Are you sure?
>
>
>Bob
Bob,
Actually, most aircraft will go inverted momentarily when a spin is
initiated. You are still moving forward at about 50 mph, and the wind
against the underneath of the wing at the moment of stall/spin initiation
forces the upper wing to roll the aircraft inverted, or nearly so, at the
first turn progresses. The nose then drops and the aircraft remains belly
down. I don't know if all aircraft respond this way, but my C-150 would do
this. I think William Kirschner describes this in his " The Basic Aerobatic
Manual"
Louis
Louis I Willig
1640 Oakwood Dr.
Penn Valley, PA 19072
610 668-4964
RV-4, N180PF
190HP IO-360, C/S prop
Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>>>>>
In an AIRPLANE, Bob..... it might not have been 180 deg. vs. gravity, but
close enuff!
Yeeeeehahh!!!!!!
Mark- do not archive
Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
With all this talk of canopy jettison, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a
case where a pilot tried to get out and failed?
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: <cecilth@juno.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com
>
> Seems to me that if you install a 'pull pin' at each side if the canopy
> where it connects to the roller (on a slider).
> In flight, just pull both pins, undo open the handle, push up on the
> canopy, and its gone, period. This is for emergency only. Am I wrong??
> Cecil
>
>
> On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com> writes:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >
> > Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is
> >
> > possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think
> > it is
> > going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry
> > the
> > canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better
> > idea,
> > it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over.
> > I just
> > dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I
> > guess that
> > was my main point. Im done on this topic.
> >
> >
> > At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote:
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels <jwdanie@comcast.net>
> > >
> > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > > > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> > > >
> > > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless
> > maybe I
> > > > have
> > > > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and
> > I am
> > > > amazed
> > > > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in
> > flight. No
> > > > insults intended towards anyone just my experience.
> > >
> > >None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can
> > be
> > >ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it
> > has
> > >(tragically) been proven already?
> > >
> > >Jim Daniels
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Scott Bilinski
> > Eng dept 305
> > Phone (858) 657-2536
> > Pager (858) 502-5190
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 61
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
Very good idea. Have you tried pulling the pins with LOTS of pressure on
the canopy? We'd probably all like to know if it works. Just don't break
your canopy trying.. :-)
Kathleen Evans
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Never done it. Hope I never have to.
But I installed quick release pins just in case.
http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us]
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>
> So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to
> blue sky while you chatter into the intercom telling your
> friend how easy it is in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!"
> Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not
> worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the
> airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your
> slider and pull and pull and pull...
>
> Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>
> Kathleen Evans
> www.rv7.us
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 11/12/2004 6:37:15 PM Central Standard Time,
szicree@adelphia.net writes:
but having a real plane in my garage is amazing.
>>>>
Just wait'll ya get to spin it!!!!!! 8-)
Mark & do not archive
Message 63
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
forces.
In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
struts,
pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
the aircraft.
The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
Ed Cole
RV6A N2169D Flying
RV6A N648RV Finishing
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Walrath
Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath"
<der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
A related question to those posed below is the provision
in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an
emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy
arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they
have found that useful to allow complete removal of the
tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel.
My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and
I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to
jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate
having to try and break out through the canopy when upside
down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent.
During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that
question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they
didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone
who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows
of someone who has.
Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
>
> Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down
to
> just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail
out?
>
>
> At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
>>
>>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
>>while
>>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in
your
>>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at
mach
>>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control
the
>>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and
pull
>>and pull and pull...
>>
>>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
>>
>>Kathleen Evans
>>www.rv7.us
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
>>
>>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on
takeoff
>>and
>>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it.
It
>>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down,
the
>>other latch the handle.
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
>>
>>
>> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>> >
>> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try
as I
>> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the
runway
>> > end
>> > for fear of it opening further un flight.
>> >
>> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by
>> > itself.
>>I
>> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is
only
>>open
>> > a few inches.
>> > What are the groups experiences?
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> >
>> >
>>
>>---
>>
>>
>
>
> Scott Bilinski
> Eng dept 305
> Phone (858) 657-2536
> Pager (858) 502-5190
>
>
>
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the
downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even
when his/her life depends on it?
I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got
tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a
Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of
being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the
aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe that
in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
>
> If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> forces.
> In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> struts,
> pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
> a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
> the aircraft.
> The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
> go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
> and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
>
>
> Ed Cole
> RV6A N2169D Flying
> RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Walrath
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath"
> <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
>
> A related question to those posed below is the provision
> in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an
> emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy
> arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they
> have found that useful to allow complete removal of the
> tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel.
>
> My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and
> I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to
> jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate
> having to try and break out through the canopy when upside
> down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent.
>
> During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that
> question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they
> didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone
> who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows
> of someone who has.
>
> Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott Bilinski" <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
> > <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
> >
> > Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down
> to
> > just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail
> out?
> >
> >
> > At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
> >>
> >>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky
>
> >>while
> >>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in
> your
> >>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at
> mach
> >>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control
> the
> >>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and
> pull
> >>and pull and pull...
> >>
> >>Can you open it? Has anyone ever?
> >>
> >>Kathleen Evans
> >>www.rv7.us
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu
> >>To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
> >>
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
> >>
> >>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on
> takeoff
> >>and
> >>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it.
> It
> >>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down,
> the
> >>other latch the handle.
> >>
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
> >>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight
> >>
> >>
> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
> >> >
> >> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try
> as I
> >> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the
> runway
> >> > end
> >> > for fear of it opening further un flight.
> >> >
> >> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by
> >> > itself.
> >>I
> >> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is
> only
> >>open
> >> > a few inches.
> >> > What are the groups experiences?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ---
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>---
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Scott Bilinski
> > Eng dept 305
> > Phone (858) 657-2536
> > Pager (858) 502-5190
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
>exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the
>downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even
>when his/her life depends on it?
>
>I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got
>tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a
>Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of
>being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the
>aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe that
>in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>
>
>>
Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye.
do not archive
Jerry
Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it
wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular
door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> >I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
> >exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is
the
> >downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it,
even
> >when his/her life depends on it?
> >
> >I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got
> >tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a
> >Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of
> >being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the
> >aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe
that
> >in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of.
> >
> >Steve Zicree
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye.
>
> do not archive
>
> Jerry
>
>
Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
steve zicree wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
> exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the
> downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even
> when his/her life depends on it?
Yes.
Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-)
Sam Buchanan
Message 68
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I don't want to prove anyone wrong, but I'm curious about just how much
downforce is created. If it really is on the order of hundreds of pounds,
shouldn't Vans try to develop a more efficient canopy? All that force is
shoving the aircraft downward and taking away from useful baggage, fuel
capacity, etc.
Are you also saying that this tremendous force exists while in a spin? I
really don't understand how this can be. Can you explain?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
> > exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is
the
> > downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it,
even
> > when his/her life depends on it?
>
>
> Yes.
>
> Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-)
>
> Sam Buchanan
>
>
Message 69
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
steve zicree wrote:
Strange, the Decathlon I used to fly had a big red handle that was
pretty easy to reach. You sound like you are
a pretty new pilot?
Jerry
do not archive
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it
>wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular
>door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane.
>
>Steve
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
>>>exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is
>>>
>>>
>the
>
>
>>>downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it,
>>>
>>>
>even
>
>
>>>when his/her life depends on it?
>>>
>>>I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got
>>>tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a
>>>Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of
>>>being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the
>>>aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of.
>>>
>>>Steve Zicree
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye.
>>
>>do not archive
>>
>>Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
Message 70
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
I don't think I quite soiled my underwear, but my first introduction to
a spin entry came while on a supervised solo flight in a C-150. I was
told to go to a nearby airport for fuel and practice stalls along the
way. I did a full power stall with a lazy right foot. I gave a little
extra pull to hasten the process and all of a sudden I was looking at
the ground after going over the left wing. After a very brief "oh my
god", I pulled the power, leveled the wings and pulled out. It was going
very fast by that time. I don't think I consciously released back
pressure first. It scared me off stalls pretty good and I was too
embarrassed to mention it to my instructor. If I hadn't had some
altitude I'd have been toast. In my case, just the regular unusual
attitude recovery drills I'd done pre-solo were enough to save my bacon.
After I got my license, I got some spin training and came to enjoy them.
Ed Holyoke
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Dwight,
My first exposure to spins was exactly as you described. In spite of all
my
previous instructor's verbal instructions, I'm pretty certain that
without
the first hand training I would not have been able to recover (soiling
underwear is not an approved spin recovery technique).
Steve Zicree
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dwight Frye" <dwight@openweave.org>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
>
> On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote :
> >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the
reduced
> >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and
> >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training.
> [ ... snip ... ]
>
> I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of
morbid
> curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else.
I
> had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a
graduated
> series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied
the
> recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue.
>
> I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while
the
> instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the
> stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a
vengeance
> followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all
> I could do was suck in a lot of air.
>
> If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k
feet
> we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started
to
> do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The
> phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind.
>
> After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and
more
> turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I
had
> to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully
developed
> spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were
going
> by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with
each
> one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer.
>
> Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say
"yes".
> Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :)
>
> -- Dwight
>
> do not archive
>
>
Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under
controlled flight.
Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
control to open your canopy.
Edward Cole wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
>
>If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
>tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
>lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
>forces.
>In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
>struts,
>pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
>a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
>the aircraft.
>The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
>go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
>and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
>The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
>practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
>an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
>
>
>Ed Cole
>RV6A N2169D Flying
>RV6A N648RV Finishing
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
Message 72
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I flew one today and it had a little bitty safety pin somewher near my right
knee that should be nearly impossible to reach while spinning earthward.
Once that's out, you still gotta get ahold of the handle and crank it about
90 degrees or so to drive out the hinge pin. Much easier to just smack the
handle with my elbow I think. I've been flying for only four years, so I
guess that makes me new.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>
> Strange, the Decathlon I used to fly had a big red handle that was
> pretty easy to reach. You sound like you are
> a pretty new pilot?
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> >Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it
> >wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular
> >door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
> >>
> >>steve zicree wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >>>
> >>>I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
> >>>exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that.
Is
> >>>
> >>>
> >the
> >
> >
> >>>downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it,
> >>>
> >>>
> >even
> >
> >
> >>>when his/her life depends on it?
> >>>
> >>>I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got
> >>>tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a
> >>>Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of
> >>>being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the
> >>>aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe
> >>>
> >>>
> >that
> >
> >
> >>>in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of.
> >>>
> >>>Steve Zicree
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye.
> >>
> >>do not archive
> >>
> >>Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would
require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very
narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way to
survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration.
The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind
another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the claims of
safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt.
When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said
that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New
ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under
> controlled flight.
>
> Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of
> control to open your canopy.
>
> Edward Cole wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" <edwardmcole@comcast.net>
> >
> >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7
> >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be
> >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable
> >forces.
> >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift
> >struts,
> >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against
> >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit
> >the aircraft.
> >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to
> >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level
> >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out?
> >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be
> >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with
> >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy.
> >
> >
> >Ed Cole
> >RV6A N2169D Flying
> >RV6A N648RV Finishing
> >
> >
>
> --
> Scott VanArtsdalen
> Van Arts Consulting Services
> 3848 McHenry Ave
> Suite #155-184
> Modesto, CA 95356
> 209-986-4647
> Ps 34:4,6
>
>
Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Amen to that.
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Open-minded humility is GOOD.
>
>
>
>
Message 75
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| Subject: | Re: Stall Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" <wvu@mail.ameritel.net>
I'm fortunate enough to have spun in a variety of aircraft along with a
variety of very capable pilots. Spins can be a lot of fun once you get over
the initial pucker factor. Afterall most aircraft behave like a falling
leaf - vice diving for the earth. Inverted spins would most definitely
surprise you if you're not familiar with the behaviors beforehand. Make
sure you're briefed on the spin characteristics of a particular aircraft and
rehearse it in your mind well to minimize the surprise factor.
When you tuck the stick of a P-51D, for example, against your lap belt and
kick left rudder at the right moment, guess what, it snaps right - every
time (that's goodness). One other aircraft that I can think of right now
would spin 1/4 turn and accelerate the spin rate quickly for the another 1/2
turn while pitching up at the same time. Then it slows down and pitch down
for the remaining 1/4 turn and the cycle repeats itself. Try to recover
from a spin to a particular heading. That can be a lot of fun, especially
when the spin does not stop for 3/4 turn or 11/2 turn once you initiate the
recovery.
Spins keep you in tune with the aircraft and your situational awareness
alive of what's happening around you.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
>
> > I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K
and
> he
> > demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
> > dirty-side-up before,
> >
> > Mark Phillips
>
> ==================================
>
> Dirty side up????
>
> Are you sure?
>
>
> Bob
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> ---
>
>
---
Message 76
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" <james@nextupventures.com>
As I recall, our tip-up is hard enough to remove **ON THE GROUND!!** with
two people working at it.
I **think** the newer (within last 5-6 years??) have a hook in the mechanism
that would make it very difficult to simply "jettison" in flight.
There is some **upward** force for the first inch or so and I *think* the
canopy tries to stabilize slightly open. To get it closed requires slowing
down and/or certain maneuvers to counter the pressures.
These comments are based on some actual experiences and direct comments from
someone with actual experience with a tip-up canopy that was half locked in
my case an no locked at all in the other case.
I do not have knowledge about what happens in a spin.
"Don't try this at home.". "Your mileage may vary." Stay safe!
James
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of steve zicree
> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:44 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> I don't want to prove anyone wrong, but I'm curious about just how much
> downforce is created. If it really is on the order of hundreds of pounds,
> shouldn't Vans try to develop a more efficient canopy? All that force is
> shoving the aircraft downward and taking away from useful baggage, fuel
> capacity, etc.
>
> Are you also saying that this tremendous force exists while in a spin? I
> really don't understand how this can be. Can you explain?
>
> Steve
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> >
> > steve zicree wrote:
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> > >
> > > I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only
> > > exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to
> do that. Is
> the
> > > downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman
> can lift it,
> even
> > > when his/her life depends on it?
> >
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-)
> >
> > Sam Buchanan
> >
> >
>
>
Message 77
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| Subject: | Re: re: Stall Warnings, etc |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Great comments, Tom, and I agree with 923te that someone
could add these audio features to the PSS AOA system.
Perhaps Jim Franz, the guy that builds them!
Mickey
At 01:56 13-11-04, 923te wrote:
-----Start of Original Message-----
>--> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net>
>
>Good points Tom.
>
>I wonder how easy it would be for one of the electrical gurus on this list
>to make a aural tone annuciator like you describe that would attach to the
>PSS AOA system?
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" <T.gummo@verizon.net>
>>
>> One more thought on AOA:
>>
>>
>> I was trained on AOA and love the system.
>>
>>
>> Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my
>> instrument panel.
>>
>>
>> Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would.
>>
>>
>> Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my
>> plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow
>to
>> see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a
>HUD).
>> My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I
>> miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system
>didn't
>> just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA
>of
>> the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise
>> speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA
>> increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON
>> SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to
>> look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range
>> and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started
>> beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could
>> look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was.
>>
>>
>> Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and
>> static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator,
>> it may show errors too.
>>
>>
>> A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed
>> it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall.
>> What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle
>> to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway?
>> What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area
>> you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the
>> proper AOA should remain the same.
>>
>>
>> Tom Gummo
>> Apple Valley, CA
>> Harmon Rocket-II
>>
>> do not archive
>>
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html
>>
>>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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