---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/12/04: 77 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:10 AM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kathleen@rv7.us) 2. 12:12 AM - Re: Stall warning etc. (Todd Bartrim) 3. 03:07 AM - looking for (Jim Jewell) 4. 05:39 AM - Re: AOA clamav-milter version (RV_8 Pilot) 5. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (RV_8 Pilot) 6. 05:56 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (RV_8 Pilot) 7. 05:57 AM - Re: AOA (Jim Gray) 8. 05:58 AM - Re: AOA (Larry Bowen) 9. 06:07 AM - O-320 oil temps (Johnny Johnson) 10. 06:15 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski) 11. 06:27 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Scott Bilinski) 12. 06:42 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (John Furey) 13. 06:49 AM - Re: RV-9A QB rivet access. (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 14. 07:08 AM - HUD display of AOA [was Re: Re: Stall warning etc.] (David Carter) 15. 07:15 AM - Re: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org (Larry Pardue) 16. 07:26 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Larry Bowen) 17. 07:57 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (RV_8 Pilot) 18. 08:08 AM - Stall Training (Valovich, Paul) 19. 08:10 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (James E. Clark) 20. 08:29 AM - Re: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) (steve zicree) 21. 08:31 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Scott Bilinski) 22. 08:37 AM - Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" (Tony Marshall) 23. 08:46 AM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Howard Walrath) 24. 08:47 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott.Fink@microchip.com) 25. 09:01 AM - Re: O-320 oil temps (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 26. 09:08 AM - RV 10 simulator (Evan and Megan Johnson) 27. 09:14 AM - Re: Stall Training (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 28. 09:15 AM - Re: Stall Training (linn walters) 29. 09:29 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski) 30. 10:02 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 (PSPRV6A@aol.com) 31. 10:16 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels) 32. 10:23 AM - TXM-O360 (Maureen & Bob Christensen) 33. 10:25 AM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 (Sam Buchanan) 34. 10:31 AM - Re: TXM-O360 (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 35. 10:40 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 36. 10:41 AM - Re: Stall Training (Dwight Frye) 37. 11:15 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski) 38. 11:33 AM - Re: Stall Training (steve zicree) 39. 11:37 AM - Re: Stall Training (Bob 1) 40. 11:38 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels) 41. 11:48 AM - Re: TXM-O360 (James H Nelson) 42. 11:52 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott Bilinski) 43. 11:55 AM - Re: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" (Ralph E. Capen) 44. 12:06 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jim Daniels) 45. 12:27 PM - hand held radio (Evan and Megan Johnson) 46. 01:02 PM - Re: hand held radio (David E. Nelson) 47. 01:02 PM - Re: hand held radio (linn walters) 48. 01:49 PM - Re: hand held radio (CBRxxDRV@aol.com) 49. 02:16 PM - Re: AOA (Bob) 50. 02:19 PM - Re: hand held radio (Stein Bruch) 51. 02:33 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Tracy Crook) 52. 03:18 PM - Re: Stall Training (David Carter) 53. 03:58 PM - Re: Stall Training (Scott VanArtsdalen) 54. 04:14 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Tom Gummo) 55. 04:36 PM - planes are fun (steve zicree) 56. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (923te) 57. 05:13 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (cecilth@juno.com) 58. 05:36 PM - Re: Stall Training (Louis Willig) 59. 05:51 PM - Re: Stall Training (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 60. 06:01 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 61. 06:02 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kathleen@rv7.us) 62. 06:02 PM - Re: planes are fun (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 63. 07:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Edward Cole) 64. 07:49 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 65. 08:04 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jerry Springer) 66. 08:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 67. 08:26 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Sam Buchanan) 68. 08:44 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 69. 08:57 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Jerry Springer) 70. 08:59 PM - Re: Stall Training (Ed Holyoke) 71. 09:30 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen) 72. 09:30 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 73. 09:57 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (steve zicree) 74. 10:11 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Scott VanArtsdalen) 75. 10:26 PM - Re: Stall Training (DejaVu) 76. 10:35 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (James E. Clark) 77. 11:52 PM - Re: Re: Stall Warnings, etc (Mickey Coggins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:10:58 AM PST US From: Kathleen@rv7.us Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull and pull and pull... Can you open it? Has anyone ever? Kathleen Evans www.rv7.us -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight --> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff and stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the other latch the handle. ----- Original Message ----- From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway end > for fear of it opening further un flight. > > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by itself. I > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only open > a few inches. > What are the groups experiences? > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:12:34 AM PST US From: "Todd Bartrim" Subject: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc. --> RV-List message posted by: "Todd Bartrim" I've tried to resist getting into this due to a busy schedule, but.... I installed the PSS-AOA Sport when building, then after completion added the Dynon and the AOA probe. Both are excellent. When I installed the Dynon I thought I might remove the PSS AOA and sell it, but instead I've installed it into the glaresheild, facing up to give me a heads-up display, which works Ok in sunlight and of coarse great on cloudy days. Having learned to fly in my own creation, I've little flying experience without an AOA, but feel it is an extremely valuable tool which not only adds to flight safety, it allows me to make my landings consistently short and precise, something that is important to me as I work on building a difficult and challenging future strip at home. I like these AOA's so much that I will definitely keep both of them. An experienced pilot that has never had one, probably wouldn't use it if it was in the panel, but any low-time, new, or non-pilots out there that are currently building would do well to strongly consider one of these. Also, don't assume that I've become reliant on this gizmo, as I have learned the "feel" of my plane, but I'd sooner lose my ASI, than one of these. Ps. Sometime ago somebody was asking about the Dynon AOA and I didn't see any replies. The PSS-AOA actually measures AOA, while the Dynon is more of an "inferential" measurement, so I didn't expect it to be as accurate. But I've found that it very closely follows the PSS, so is every bit as accurate. The biggest advantages to the PSS-AOA is that it has an audible output which is valuable, (the new Dynon is supposed to have this), it does a self test every time it turns on and notifies you if it fails (power it up before removing snow from the wings(covering pressure port)and it will notify you of an error) and that it can be mounted to give a heads-up display, while the Dynon display can be slightly cluttered (still love it though). Anybody using or planning on a Dynon really should pop the extra couple hundred bucks, for what really is the best priced heated pitot tube on the market, and get an AOA included! Pss. Anybody wanna buy my old (almost new) heated pitot tube? Todd Bartrim RV9Endurance 13B Turbo Rotary C-FSTB http://www3.telus.net/haywire/RV-9/C-FSTB.htm "The world will always have a place for those that bring hard work and determination to the things they do." ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:37 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: RV-List: looking for --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" I am looking for Norman Hunger, If you are monitoring the list norman please get in touch. Jim in Kelowna do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:15 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA clamav-milter version --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" I think he's right on... Bryan -8 680 hrs >No one has any comments on this one??? > >Do not archive > >Curt Reimer wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" > > > > > > > >Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one >of > >the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall > >speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as >the > >load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can >be > >in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight > >and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the > >pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not >pulling > >any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. >On > >the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight >and > >level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated > >stall. > > > >What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of >bank, > >the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn increases, until >at > >90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold altitude. But >even > >that goes out the window when you start getting into high power-to-weight > >ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level, knife edge flight is > >obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only seeing 1 G and still holding >level > >flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree base-to-final turn but letting the > >altitude bleed off and keeping the airspeed up and the Gs low and be >nowhere > >near the stall. > > > >I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high Gs at low > >altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an eye >on > >your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked turn, keep the nose > >down, the Gs low and the airspeed up. > > > >As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they seem like a > >good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low altitude. >The > >alternative is to just stay away from the edge. > > > >Curt > >RV-6 C-GACR > >240 hours > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:08 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" >That very same day, while flying >around with my girlfriend, the right door flew open while doing a steep >turn. I am absolutely certain that she would have fallen to her death had I >taken that old blowhard's advice. Guess I better *triple* check the seat belts before reaching over and popping my students door open in the pattern!! ;) ;) Was it a cross-controlled steep turn? Why the lateral g's pulling your girlfriend toward the open door? What kind of door popped open far enough to someone to fall out of? A Cub? I'm just gig'n you a little. Your point is well taken - just sounded kind of dramatic. Bryan do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:16 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" I've cjecked into this and the only one I know of was an -8. Bryan >You unlatch your slider and pull >and pull and pull... > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > >Kathleen Evans >www.rv7.us ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:57:52 AM PST US From: Jim Gray Subject: RV-List: RE: AOA --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Gray One of those famous aviation truisms.......why do we do it that way? Because weve always done it that way. It doesnt mean its the best way to do it. To those that feel that AOA is not a valuable addition to an aircraft because they have survived 20 years, or 30 years or 40 years, without it, I think you are missing the point. Because you survived without it doesnt mean its the better way to fly. airplanes with and without AOA, there is no question in my mind that AOA is better than no AOA. The reasons would be too lengthy to list here. V/R Jim Gray RV-8 with AOA under construction ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:22 AM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: AOA --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Makes sense to me. It's all about angle of attack -- wing versus relative wind. Not wing versus horizon. - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Bristol [mailto:bj034@lafn.org] > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 12:37 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org > > --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol > > No one has any comments on this one??? > > Do not archive > > Curt Reimer wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" > > > > > > > >Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed > whatsoever. This is > >one of the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply > >that stall speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed > >increases as the load factor increases, period. If you > aren't pulling > >any Gs then you can be in a 90 degree bank and your stall > speed is the > >same as it is in straight and level flight. I often find myself with > >60-80 degrees of bank in the pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but > >you'd better believe I'm not pulling any significant Gs at > the time and > >my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On the other hand, you > can be in a > >nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and level, but if > you pull hard > >at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated stall. > > > >What the textbooks usually say is that as you increase your angle of > >bank, the amount of G necessary to hold altitude in the turn > increases, > >until at 90 degrees of bank you need to pull infinite Gs to hold > >altitude. But even that goes out the window when you start > getting into > >high power-to-weight ratio aircraft. An aerobatic aircraft in level, > >knife edge flight is obviously banked at 90 degrees yet only > seeing 1 G > >and still holding level flight. Or you can be in a 70 degree > >base-to-final turn but letting the altitude bleed off and > keeping the > >airspeed up and the Gs low and be nowhere near the stall. > > > >I think the bottom line for pattern work is: don't pull high > Gs at low > >altitude, regardless of the attitude of the airplane. Always keep an > >eye on your airspeed, and if you need to make a steep banked > turn, keep > >the nose down, the Gs low and the airspeed up. > > > >As for angle of attack indicators, I don't have one but they > seem like > >a good idea IF you want to push the edge of the envelope at low > >altitude. The alternative is to just stay away from the edge. > > > >Curt > >RV-6 C-GACR > >240 hours > > > > > > > > > > > ========= > ========= > Matronics Forums. > ========= > ========= > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:08 AM PST US From: "Johnny Johnson" Subject: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" The oil temp on my RV-3 with an O320 generally runs 150 at most, no matter what. No, I havent calibrated the senders, but two different ones agree within a few degrees (the original bulb and the sender on the currently installed GRT engine monitor). From many comments lately on the list, it looks like O-320s in general run cool. People do all sorts of stuff that amounts to different ways of blocking off the oil cooler air inlet and/or outlet to try to get the oil to warm up. This brings up an obvious question. Do we really need an oil cooler on an O-320? Has anyone gone the no-cooler route or have some words of wisdom for me? Thanks Johnny Johnson 49MM RV-3A 160 Lyc ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:15:36 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull >and pull and pull... > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > >Kathleen Evans >www.rv7.us > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight > >--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" > >Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff and >stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It >closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the >other latch the handle. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > > > > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I > > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway end > > for fear of it opening further un flight. > > > > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by itself. >I > > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only >open > > a few inches. > > What are the groups experiences? > > > > > > --- > > > > > >--- > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:02 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Why is there oil going through the cooler at 150? At 08:04 AM 11/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Johnny Johnson" > >The oil temp on my RV-3 with an O320 generally runs 150 at most, no matter >what. No, I havent calibrated the senders, but two different ones agree >within a few degrees (the original bulb and the sender on the currently >installed GRT engine monitor). From many comments lately on the list, it >looks like O-320s in general run cool. People do all sorts of stuff that >amounts to different ways of blocking off the oil cooler air inlet and/or >outlet to try to get the oil to warm up. > >This brings up an obvious question. Do we really need an oil cooler on an >O-320? Has anyone gone the no-cooler route or have some words of wisdom for >me? > >Thanks > >Johnny Johnson >49MM RV-3A 160 Lyc > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:39 AM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone has the answer. John RV6A O-320 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:42 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-9A QB rivet access. --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Hi Pete, You mean you're not flying yet, and don't care about AOA stall warning devices, and flying without latching the canopy? Just kidding. I used the edge of a piece of half inch steel plate (actually my back riveting plate, but its a little big) for a bucking bar to do most of the canopy sill rivets, and used pop rivets between the front and rear F-721-A and -B pieces. Also, you can use the flat side of a punch backed up by a bucking bar some places. Another trick is to taper the front of the F-721-B to get access to the bottom of the bolt that holds the roll bar on if yours is a slider. Hope this helps. Dan Hopper RV-7A N766DH (Flying since July) In a message dated 11/10/04 9:45:05 PM US Eastern Standard Time, pete.howell@gecko-group.com writes: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Pete Howell" > > Hello, > > I am trying to get access to the rivets under the F-721-B for the F-705 on > my -9A QB. Is it a case of making some creative bucking bars, or have > people cut off the slotted flange of the F-721B to get access. Other ideas > appreciated........ > > Thanks, > > Pete > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:17 AM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: HUD display of AOA [was Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc.] --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Todd, I love the "HUD" display thing! David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Todd Bartrim" Subject: RV-List: Re: Stall warning etc. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Todd Bartrim" > I installed the PSS-AOA Sport when building, then after completion added the > Dynon and the AOA probe. Both are excellent. When I installed the Dynon I > thought I might remove the PSS AOA and sell it, but instead I've installed > it into the glaresheild, facing up to give me a heads-up display, which > works Ok in sunlight and of coarse great on cloudy days. > Todd Bartrim ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:15:57 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA clamav-milter version 0.80j on zoot.lafn.org From: Larry Pardue --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue Well, none really except it is all true. One of my favorite maneuvers is a deal where I bank about 120 degrees at around 60 or 70 knots. This is not part of a roll but just kind of a steep wingover. Lots of fun, very graceful and not more than about 1.5 G during the whole thing. Pull up till you are slow, bank to about 90 to 120 degrees while letting the nose fall through the horizon, then gradually level the wings and apply back pressure. I never get near stall because I am unloaded in the steep part of the maneuver. I don't do it low though. No one has mentioned that an airplane also will not stall going straight up, even as it reaches 0 airspeed. It will fall though. Not recommended low either. Don't have angle of attack in my airplane. Think it would be real nice. Can't imagine why anyone objects to someone else having it. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net On 11/11/04 10:37 PM, "Dave Bristol" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol > > No one has any comments on this one??? > > Do not archive > > Curt Reimer wrote: > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Curt Reimer" >> >> >> >> Bank angle by itself has no impact on stall speed whatsoever. This is one of >> the bigest misconceptions in flying. The textbooks all imply that stall >> speed increases with angle of bank. Not true! Stall speed increases as the >> load factor increases, period. If you aren't pulling any Gs then you can be >> in a 90 degree bank and your stall speed is the same as it is in straight >> and level flight. I often find myself with 60-80 degrees of bank in the >> pattern, since RVs roll so nicely, but you'd better believe I'm not pulling >> any significant Gs at the time and my airspeed is 20 knots above stall. On >> the other hand, you can be in a nice "safe" 30 degree bank, or straight and >> level, but if you pull hard at low airspeed, you will get an accellerated >> stall. >> ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:09 AM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Never done it. Hope I never have to. But I installed quick release pins just in case. http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us] > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > > So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to > blue sky while you chatter into the intercom telling your > friend how easy it is in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" > Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not > worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the > airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your > slider and pull and pull and pull... > > Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > > Kathleen Evans > www.rv7.us ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:42 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" and eliminate a serious failure point!! Will have to look at the flow diagram and see if it can just be removed and the connection points plugged. I think it can. Anyone know for sure off the top of their head? Bryan do not archive >Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes >above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone >has the answer. > >John >RV6A O-320 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:28 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Stall Training From: "Valovich, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane - isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall occurs? Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope. Paul Valovich Booger ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:51 AM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" Our O-320 runs warm. On hot days during climb I have seen oil temps as high as 220 I think. Spoke with Bart about the temps and he said all was well. On the other hand, getting the EGT and CHT up on our engine is another story. James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Furey > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:45 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" > > Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes > above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone > has the answer. > > John > RV6A O-320 > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:38 AM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Actually the turn was probably pretty well coordinated (for a low time guy), but the surprise did cause me to release back pressure kind of suddenly. I do reach over and check pax's belts now. Plane was a 152. Door didn't fly completely open, but I'm sure a falling body would open it the rest of the way. In any case, her can of 7-up is no longer with us. RIP 7-up can. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Stall warning (opinionated) > --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > > >That very same day, while flying > >around with my girlfriend, the right door flew open while doing a steep > >turn. I am absolutely certain that she would have fallen to her death had I > >taken that old blowhard's advice. > > Guess I better *triple* check the seat belts before reaching over and > popping my students door open in the pattern!! ;) ;) > > Was it a cross-controlled steep turn? Why the lateral g's pulling your > girlfriend toward the open door? What kind of door popped open far enough > to someone to fall out of? A Cub? > > I'm just gig'n you a little. Your point is well taken - just sounded kind of > dramatic. > > Bryan > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:28 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: RE: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I would think this should be moved over to the Lycoming list to get the answer? At 09:56 AM 11/12/2004 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > >and eliminate a serious failure point!! > >Will have to look at the flow diagram and see if it can just be removed and >the connection points plugged. I think it can. Anyone know for sure off >the top of their head? > >Bryan > >do not archive > > >Great question, I have been wanting to ask the same since mine never goes > >above 170 and I would love to make room and save weight, so I hope someone > >has the answer. > > > >John > >RV6A O-320 > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:02 AM PST US From: "Tony Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" --> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" In the not too distant past I came across a posting where someone had improved (modified) Rich's canopy mod. Now I am unable to find it. As I recall the mod had to do with the spring loaded canopy stop included with Rich's kit. I would appreciate hearing (seeing) what that mod looks like. I am getting ready to install the kit on my 6. Thanks. Tony Marshall ArtDeco RV6 www.lambros.com P.O. Box 906 Polson, MT 59860 800-432-6828 Office 406-249-0835 Cell ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:49 AM PST US From: "Howard Walrath" Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" A related question to those posed below is the provision in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they have found that useful to allow complete removal of the tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel. My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate having to try and break out through the canopy when upside down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent. During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows of someone who has. Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Bilinski" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to > just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? > > > At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us >> >>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky >>while >>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your >>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach >>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the >>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull >>and pull and pull... >> >>Can you open it? Has anyone ever? >> >>Kathleen Evans >>www.rv7.us >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight >> >>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" >> >>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff >>and >>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It >>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the >>other latch the handle. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> >>To: >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight >> >> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> >> > >> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I >> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway >> > end >> > for fear of it opening further un flight. >> > >> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by >> > itself. >>I >> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only >>open >> > a few inches. >> > What are the groups experiences? >> > >> > >> > --- >> > >> > >> >>--- >> >> > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:04 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question From: Scott.Fink@microchip.com 11/12/2004 09:46:59 AM, Serialize complete at 11/12/2004 09:46:59 AM --> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com Kathleen, That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club. Scott Scott Bilinski Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com 11/12/2004 07:12 AM Please respond to rv-list To: rv-list@matronics.com cc: Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky while >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull >and pull and pull... > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > >Kathleen Evans >www.rv7.us ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:04 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: O-320 oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com >>>>>>> My 150 hp E3D with a Positech (new style) cooler rarely gets over 180 during the summer and I've only see it over 200 on looooong climbs with the ambient above 90. I do have it firewall mounted and fed with a 3" scat from the left plenum and have a cockpit adjustable butterfly to control airflow through it. During the winter it stays shut most of the time to get 180, so maybe I didn't need all this stuff anyway! From The PossumWorks in TN Mark ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:00 AM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: RV-List: RV 10 simulator --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Anybody know of an RV 10 model for microsoft flight sim 2004? Thanks in advance... Evan ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:03 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 11/12/2004 10:11:03 AM Central Standard Time, pvalovich@dcscorp.com writes: Maybe I'm missing something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane - isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall occurs? >>>>>>> I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and he demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been dirty-side-up before, but we did several more with me on the controls and the big difference between the first and the rest convinced me that if I had never seen a spin, the first time I got into one accidentally I'd be too busy crapping my drawers to react quickly, regardless of how many times I'd been coached on the correct recovery or how many times I had practiced stalls. I'd highly recommend doing spins with a well-qualified instructor during initial training or at least get it in aero asap. One of those "most valuable moments" I've ever had in an airplane! FWIW- Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:03 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Valovich, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing >something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane - >isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in >all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall >occurs? > I received all my training for my private license in a 2-place Grumman ...... spins prohibited. The first opportunity to practice spins came in a T-34 (which I used to make many instructors sick .... paybacks are hell!) and now I do them a lot in my Pitts. I don't agree with not requiring some spin training for the private. As with comments on the AOA thread ..... being able to explore the slow edge of flight (and the onset of a stall/spin scenario) may just save somebody's bacon down the road when they get complacent. The original Grumman Yankee suffered from approach to landing stall/spin accidents and garnered an undeserved reputation ..... but the accidents were due to poor (or no) training when 150 pilots were transitioning to the little Grummans ..... whose only requirement was to maintain flying speed ..... a little higher than the 150's ..... and control sink rate with throttle, not elevator. Again, if the incident had occured with sufficient altitude recovery is possible (in the Grumman) if action is taken swiftly. The Grummans proclivity to spin only occurs outside the normal operating envelope and illadvised use of the rudder. However, with the Grumman, you get two distinct warnings ...... burbling and associated noise as the airflow over the wing starts to unattach ..... then the stall horn goes off ....... and if you persist in your activity, finally it will stall. So, what's this got to do with RV's? Well, I've not got much time in them .... but not one of the aircraft I've flown was without some buffeting prior to the stall. Depending on the wing shape, AOA, and airspeed, the time between buffetting and stall can get pretty short. But it's still there, and not being trained to know what that noise means leads me to speculate that stall/spin accidents will increase. My (unsolicited) advice is to get some practice with a pilot experienced in the same model ...... and go explore the nether regions of the flight envelope until you're comfortable doing it by yourself ..... bearing in mind that with a passenger/instructor the airspeeds will be a little different than with just one pilot. Go out and have fun with your airplane .... but I have a warning .... if you get into the 'aerobatic' regions ..... aierbatics can be terribly addictive ..... I know, because I'm addicted ..... and when the -10 is done, I'll still have two airplanes for their two different missions. Linn > > >Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the >pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on >recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the >old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope. > >Paul Valovich > >Booger > > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:44 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back approx .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound do no good for me. Dont all slider canopies have to move back before they can move upward? At 09:46 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com > >Kathleen, > >That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That >way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips >from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club. > >Scott > > >Scott Bilinski >Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >11/12/2004 07:12 AM >Please respond to rv-list > > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > cc: > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > >Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to >just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? > > >At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > > > >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky >while > >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your > >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at >mach > >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the > >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull > >and pull and pull... > > > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > > > >Kathleen Evans > >www.rv7.us > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:54 AM PST US From: PSPRV6A@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 --> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com Re: Stall warning. I am a typical 30-year Cessna "driver," 1,100 hours or so. Everone knows the "sick cat" wail of the Cessna stall warner. It only surprised me only once, on the well-known tailwind on base leg scenario & saved the day. Once is enough! Our 6A nearing completion has the Lift Reserve Indicator. Paul S. Petersen ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:46 AM PST US From: Jim Daniels Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back > approx > .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound > do > no good for me. Why not? Just pull the pins, slide it back slightly, push up and it's gone. Jim Daniels ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:31 AM PST US From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" Subject: RV-List: TXM-O360 --> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" I am at the point where I need to buy an engine . . . I'm leaning toward the TXM-O360 from Mattituck/Teledyne . . . this appears to be a professional shop with a good reputation. Their price is competitive. Does anyone out there have experience with the TXM-360 and/or Mattituck that they would be willing to share? Thanks, Bob Christensen RV-8 Builder - SE Iowa ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:25 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 54 Msgs - 11/11/04 --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan PSPRV6A@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com > > Re: Stall warning. > I am a typical 30-year Cessna "driver," 1,100 hours or so. Everone > knows the "sick cat" wail of the Cessna stall warner. It only surprised me only > once, on the well-known tailwind on base leg scenario & saved the day. Once is > enough! Our 6A nearing completion has the Lift Reserve Indicator. > Uh oh........the dasterdly downwind turn demon has reappeared!!! Bunches of opinions in the archives. :-) Sam Buchanan (RV-6 with LRI) http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/liftreserve.htm ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:53 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: TXM-O360 --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) yes, i've ordered stuff from them. No problems. Mahlon represents them and he's just an awesome "internet resource". Like 'lectric Bob but with a torque wrench instead of a multi-meter on his desk. > --> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" > > > I am at the point where I need to buy an engine . . . I'm leaning toward the > TXM-O360 from Mattituck/Teledyne . . . this appears to be a professional > shop with a good reputation. Their price is competitive. > > Does anyone out there have experience with the TXM-360 and/or Mattituck that > they would be willing to share? > > Thanks, > Bob Christensen > RV-8 Builder - SE Iowa > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:54 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) yep, and the one time we took off in an 8 with it partially opened we couldn't not get it to move no matter how hard pushed. Seems if you are going much higher than stall speeds the darn air pressure pushing down on the top of the canopy is like a lock. Which is wierd because the canopy skirt at the rear has a low pressure and likes to rise and air enters in on the rear seater's neck. > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back approx > .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound do > no good for me. Dont all slider canopies have to move back before they can > move upward? > > > At 09:46 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott.Fink@Microchip.com > > > >Kathleen, > > > >That is why a lot of people put pull-pins to hold the front rollers. That > >way, you pull the pins, push the canopy up a little and hopefully it rips > >from the plane and out you go to join the caterpillar club. > > > >Scott > > > > > >Scott Bilinski > >Sent by: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >11/12/2004 07:12 AM > >Please respond to rv-list > > > > > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > cc: > > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > >Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to > >just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? > > > > > >At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > > > > > >So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky > >while > > >you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your > > >RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at > >mach > > >45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the > > >airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull > > >and pull and pull... > > > > > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > > > > > >Kathleen Evans > > >www.rv7.us > > > > > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:26 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote : >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. [ ... snip ... ] I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of morbid curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else. I had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a graduated series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied the recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue. I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while the instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a vengeance followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all I could do was suck in a lot of air. If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k feet we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started to do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind. After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and more turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I had to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully developed spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were going by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with each one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer. Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say "yes". Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :) -- Dwight do not archive ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:41 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I have some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am amazed at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No insults intended towards anyone just my experience. At 11:13 AM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > I dont know about you but to open my canopy (8a) it must slide back > > approx > > .625 inches before it can move upward to eject it, so those pins wound > > do > > no good for me. > >Why not? Just pull the pins, slide it back slightly, push up and it's >gone. > >Jim Daniels > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:08 AM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Dwight, My first exposure to spins was exactly as you described. In spite of all my previous instructor's verbal instructions, I'm pretty certain that without the first hand training I would not have been able to recover (soiling underwear is not an approved spin recovery technique). Steve Zicree do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight Frye" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training > --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye > > On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote : > >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced > >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and > >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. > [ ... snip ... ] > > I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of morbid > curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else. I > had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a graduated > series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied the > recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue. > > I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while the > instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the > stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a vengeance > followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all > I could do was suck in a lot of air. > > If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k feet > we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started to > do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The > phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind. > > After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and more > turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I had > to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully developed > spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were going > by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with each > one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer. > > Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say "yes". > Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :) > > -- Dwight > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:34 AM PST US From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and he > demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been > dirty-side-up before, > > Mark Phillips ================================== Dirty side up???? Are you sure? Bob Do not archive ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:24 AM PST US From: Jim Daniels Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I > have > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am > amazed > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No > insults intended towards anyone just my experience. None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can be ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it has (tragically) been proven already? Jim Daniels ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: TXM-O360 From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Bob, I have a friend who has a Cessna 210 with a turbo normalized 6 cyl. He had Mattituck do the over haul and they did an excellent job. This is noted from my friend who worked with Malihon and the help and SERVICE that he got from them. Many will build but if things don't go exactly the way you want , the service from them to get you on your way is worth a few bucks. I will be needing a new engine and they will get my order. Jim ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:31 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think it is going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry the canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better idea, it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over. I just dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I guess that was my main point. Im done on this topic. At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless maybe I > > have > > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and I am > > amazed > > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in flight. No > > insults intended towards anyone just my experience. > >None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can be >ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it has >(tragically) been proven already? > >Jim Daniels > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:14 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I'm interested in any improvements there too. I have installed mine already - but it could be bettter. Ralph Capen -----Original Message----- From: Tony Marshall Subject: RV-List: Rich Meske's "Tip-up Slider" --> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" In the not too distant past I came across a posting where someone had improved (modified) Rich's canopy mod. Now I am unable to find it. As I recall the mod had to do with the spring loaded canopy stop included with Rich's kit. I would appreciate hearing (seeing) what that mod looks like. I am getting ready to install the kit on my 6. Thanks. Tony Marshall ArtDeco RV6 www.lambros.com P.O. Box 906 Polson, MT 59860 800-432-6828 Office 406-249-0835 Cell ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:33 PM PST US From: Jim Daniels Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > I just > dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I guess > that > was my main point. Im done on this topic. Agreed, I'm not trying to trivialize the point, and it is likely not possible in all situations. Remember, though, that testing the waters trying to partially open your canopy on a fun flight is entirely different than a real life emergency situation. I'm guessing that if that sucker *must* go, you'll come up with a lot more effort. Jim ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 12:27:48 PM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using and where the best deals are. Thanks a bunch....Evan www.evansaviationproducts.com ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:28 PM PST US From: "David E. Nelson" Subject: Re: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: "David E. Nelson" Hi Evan, I've been using the Icom IC-A5 as my standy and have been happy with it. Features I like: - BNC antenna - Lighted display _and_ numbers - Water resistant - Small (I actually carry it in my Lightspeed headset bag w/ the headset) - WX freqs When I purchased it, ICOM had a special going on and I got the NiMH and charger. A pretty good desc is here: http://www.acespilotshop.com/pilot-supplies/handheld/icom-a5-com.htm Regards, /\/elson On Fri, 12 Nov 2004, Evan and Megan Johnson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" > > Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in > my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on > buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use > either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to > use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is > using and where the best deals are. Thanks a bunch....Evan > www.evansaviationproducts.com ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:28 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Evan and Megan Johnson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" > >Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using and where the best deals are. >Thanks a bunch....Evan >www.evansaviationproducts.com > You might scour the radio shops for a used one instead of going the handheld route. Check TAP too. Even Ebay. If/when you go to sell the airplane, not having a functioning radio will take a big bite out of the selling price. I guess it's kinda like pay me now or pay me later. You may not be satisfied using the handheld as a primary radio ...... I use the Icom ICA-4 in my Pitts, and its a PITA to tune and only has 10 stored freqs. Linn Linn > > > > ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:40 PM PST US From: CBRxxDRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com In a message dated 11/12/04 3:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, evmeg@snowcrest.net writes: > Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio > in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on > buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either > in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until > I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using > and where the best deals are. > Best deal I can't tell you, but I have been running a Icom A-5 in my champ for 4 years and it has been a good investment. I just sold the champ and kept the radio. do not archive RV-4 RV-8 QB Sal Capra Lakeland, FL. My Home Page ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:13 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA on opie.wvnet.edu --> RV-List message posted by: Bob The debate over the AOA/stall warning device is not about how good it is or how many lives it will save. I doubt anyone is saying that it is totally useless. What some of us are disagreeing about is the comment heard from many proponents: "Every RV should have one" The hidden meaning is: 1. How can you fly without one. 2. If you fly without one you are a stupid reckless pilot that should be banned from the airways. 3. I know best what you need in your RV (in some cases made by people who don't fly RVs who based their judgments on the Airlines or the Military) What we are talking about is risk management. Does the pilot think he can handle the risks or not? For the AOA proponents, would you ground your aircraft if your AOA was inoperative? Do you consider it mandatory for any flight? Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 02:19:56 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: RE: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" Hi Even, ICOM does indeed make the same radio TSO'd that you could install in your C-150. It's about $100.00 higher than the non-TSO'd one, meaning you should be able to find them for around $800.00. That being said, you should also be able to pickup a good handheld Nav/Comm (like an Icom for example - it's what I use) for around $400.00 (IC-A22 or A23). The comm only is around $350.00. The JHP-520 Nav/Com is also about $350-400.00. If you can't find a deal on one, contact me off list and I'll hook you up. I have acess to the above units at the above pricing. Cheers, Stein Bruch RV6's, Minneapolis Do Not Archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and Megan Johnson Subject: RV-List: hand held radio --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Guys, I am in need of a portable (hand held) back up radio. The old radio in my C-150 went south and I dont feel like replacing it. I am planning on buying a new X-com or micro air for my RV 10 but I am not allowed to use either in the Cessna. So I thought I would just invest now in a back up to use until I am ready to buy for the RV. Just wondering what everybody else is using and where the best deals are. Thanks a bunch....Evan www.evansaviationproducts.com ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:32 PM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question Seal-Send-Time: Fri, 12 Nov 2004 17:29:21 -0500 --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" Second hand info, but I hear the -4 canopy departs the airframe immediately after unlatching it. Tracy Crook --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > I've cjecked into this and the only one I know of was an -8. Bryan >You unlatch your slider and pull >and pull and pull... > >Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > >Kathleen Evans >www.rv7.us ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:47 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" This FAA sanctioned/fostered/promoted "approach to stalls"/"start recovery at the first indication of a stall" thing is the single most serious safety problem that exists in this country, in General Aviation - in my opinion. It is the only aviation issue I am absolutely PASSIONATE about. - All pilots should be - but are not -properly instructed in the essential knowledge of safe recovery from a stall. The bi-annual reviews and initial flight instruction have been fatally poisoned by the FAA idiocy so that I see no evidence of proper instruction and practice. When I attended AirAdventure at Oshkosh about 3 years ago, three aircraft crashed due to stall turning final over the course of the event. I went to the FAA exhibit area and shared my frustration with one of the "Ops" types there. He listened, agreed, and said, "Why don't you go home and write that up?" I said to him, "Why don't you - you are on the taxpayer's salary and are on the inside of the system!" He was silent. Wasn't his job. No one should die from momentarily stalling an aircraft in the turn to final. Death follows trying to maneuver the aircraft while STILL STALLED - trying to roll wings level when one one starts dropping due to being stalled and riding the aircraft into the ground because the ailerons weren't making the plane roll out, etc, etc, until he/they impact past inverted and/or way nose low (unsurvivable). - Som guys in the F-100 used to do the same thing: Would be at 350KIAS on base leg in the gunnery pattern and roll into a turn to final. If/when they pulled too hard/got to a high AOA - not even stalled but "high" - we eventually learned (John Boyd figured it out and taught everyone else) that the only way to roll the F-100 at high AOA was stick in the center (laterally) and use slight rudder to cause slight yaw, which caused POWERFUL roll in the direction you wanted to roll. It wasn't noticeably "uncoordinated", was NOT "turning with the rudder" as we sometimes demonstrate in a Cessna, to show how NOT to turn - it was simply a reality that the F-100 had such horrendous "adverse yaw" from the "down aileron" that the aileron would produce more yaw than the rudder. You had to use rudder to roll - at high AOA. These guys turning final would crash/impact going the OPPOSITE direction from the target - they would be in a left pattern, load up the aircraft (increase AOA) and use left aileron - result was a RIGHT roll away from the target, they'd fight it and put in MORE left aileron, the airplane would continue to depart to the RIGHT and they'd fly the plane right into the ground fighting the "roll in the opposite direction". Well, what does this have to do with straight wing aircraft which don't have that much adverse yaw? The simple fact that there IS adverse yaw in all our straight wing aircraft - the Wright brothers found it and added a rudder to compensate. Other than crossed controls for slipping on final and/or in the flare for touchdown in presence of a crosswind, the primary purpose of the rudder is to cancel out adverse yaw when rolling into and out of turns.. - Guys who have spent their whole life only "APPROACHING a stall" and never MOMENTARILY play with ailerons IN the stall, don't have a clue that they can and will actually induce a pro-spin control input by trying to raise a wing while it is still stalled. That is the whole point of this discussion - keep the ball in the center and don't try to roll BEFORE you REDUCE AOA and UNSTALL the wing. I teach: 1) Reduce AOA (now the wing is no longer stalled) and THEN roll wings level and use power and pitch to avoid the ground. In a Cessna 172 I typically lose 50' in the recovery from a straight ahead level flight stall. If you are turning final, overshooting due to being in too close or being blown in too close by improperly compensated wind, you abandon the attempt to align with the runway and go around at some angle to the runway, but you are alive. 2) You must start your recovery - even when practicing under controlled condition - before you allow the aircraft to develop ANGULAR MOMENTUM in roll. Release back pressure (unstall), roll out, and pull up. It is a simultaneous, instantaneous recovery. NO ONE SHOULD EVER DIE IN A "TURN TO FINAL STALL". I demonstrate this to a student with a slow power reduction in wings level flight holding altitude. I reduce power just enough to let the aircraft slow enough to stall in level flight. We lose 50' in the recovery, without even having to add full power. - After the student sees that the airplane is not going to "flip upside down and/or spin" when it fully stalls, I then demo it by holding the aircraft in the stall, with Cessna wheel full back against the mechanical stop, keeping the ball in the center with the rudder, and watch the vertical velocity tell us that we are falling at a significant rate. We note altitude, relax back pressure and add power and recover to level flight - don't lose much altitude. Then we do it in a simulated turn to final - pull into a full stall and when one wing starts to drop, we instantly relax back pressure and roll out (unstalled) and use pitch and power to recover. 1. Don't try to roll or control the bank angle when stalled. 2. Don't let any roll momentum build up before reducing AOA and recovering. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valovich, Paul" Subject: RV-List: Stall Training > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced > focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and > seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. Maybe I'm missing > something, but putting aside the need to actually spin the airplane - > isn't the real learning point recognition of the approach to stall in > all flight regions, not necessarily the reaction once the full stall > occurs? > > > Granted, recovery from a full blown stall at low altitude or in the > pattern is a dicey proposition, so shouldn't the training focus on > recognition of the where the stall is about to occur ? I adhere to the > old Navy adage: The edge IS still part of the envelope. > > Paul Valovich > > Booger > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:18 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen I can still hear my instructor's voice in my head as we were doing approach stalls: "Lower the nose! Level the wings! Add power! When the airspeed is good, fly out of it." David Carter wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" >No one should die from momentarily stalling an aircraft in the turn to >final. Death follows trying to maneuver the aircraft while STILL STALLED - >trying to roll wings level when one one starts dropping due to being stalled >and riding the aircraft into the ground because the ailerons weren't making >the plane roll out, etc, etc, until he/they impact past inverted and/or way >nose low (unsurvivable). > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:02 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" One more thought on AOA: I was trained on AOA and love the system. Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my instrument panel. Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would. Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow to see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a HUD). My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system didn't just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA of the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was. Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator, it may show errors too. A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall. What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway? What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the proper AOA should remain the same. Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:18 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: RV-List: planes are fun --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Aviators, So I'm standing in the driveway heading out for the usual Friday night drive-thru fare when I realized my wallet's in the garage. I hit the opener from my car and when the door comes up what do I see pointing straight at me but my perfect little RV4 fuse, sitting proudly on it's newly mounted wheels. Suddenly I feel this silly grin creep across my face. With all the talk of safety and grim accident reports it's easy to forget why we all do this: Cuz we LOVE airplanes!! I've loved em since I was tiny and I know you all feel the same. I've dreamt of building one in my garage since I saw that flock of Teenie's on the cover of my dad's Popular Mechanics. The cost and the regs and hazards are a hassle, but having a real plane in my garage is amazing. The other day two little boys stopped to look at me in the driveway trying to align the wheel pants and asked if it was a REAL plane. When I told them yes, they both responded in unison "LUCKY!!!". All I could do was agree. Steve Zicree do not archive ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:41 PM PST US From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> Good points Tom. I wonder how easy it would be for one of the electrical gurus on this list to make a aural tone annuciator like you describe that would attach to the PSS AOA system? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > > One more thought on AOA: > > > I was trained on AOA and love the system. > > > Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my > instrument panel. > > > Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would. > > > Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my > plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow to > see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a HUD). > My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I > miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system didn't > just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA of > the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise > speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA > increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON > SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to > look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range > and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started > beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could > look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was. > > > Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and > static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator, > it may show errors too. > > > A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed > it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall. > What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle > to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway? > What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area > you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the > proper AOA should remain the same. > > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 05:13:24 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question From: cecilth@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com Seems to me that if you install a 'pull pin' at each side if the canopy where it connects to the roller (on a slider). In flight, just pull both pins, undo open the handle, push up on the canopy, and its gone, period. This is for emergency only. Am I wrong?? Cecil On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 Scott Bilinski writes: > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is > > possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think > it is > going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry > the > canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better > idea, > it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over. > I just > dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I > guess that > was my main point. Im done on this topic. > > > At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > > > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless > maybe I > > > have > > > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and > I am > > > amazed > > > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in > flight. No > > > insults intended towards anyone just my experience. > > > >None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can > be > >ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it > has > >(tragically) been proven already? > > > >Jim Daniels > > > > > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:15 PM PST US From: Louis Willig Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: Louis Willig At 02:37 PM 11/12/2004, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > > > > I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and >he > > demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been > > dirty-side-up before, > > > > Mark Phillips > >================================== > >Dirty side up???? > >Are you sure? > > >Bob Bob, Actually, most aircraft will go inverted momentarily when a spin is initiated. You are still moving forward at about 50 mph, and the wind against the underneath of the wing at the moment of stall/spin initiation forces the upper wing to roll the aircraft inverted, or nearly so, at the first turn progresses. The nose then drops and the aircraft remains belly down. I don't know if all aircraft respond this way, but my C-150 would do this. I think William Kirschner describes this in his " The Basic Aerobatic Manual" Louis Louis I Willig 1640 Oakwood Dr. Penn Valley, PA 19072 610 668-4964 RV-4, N180PF 190HP IO-360, C/S prop ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:49 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com >>>>> In an AIRPLANE, Bob..... it might not have been 180 deg. vs. gravity, but close enuff! Yeeeeehahh!!!!!! Mark- do not archive ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:56 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" With all this talk of canopy jettison, I'm wondering if anyone knows of a case where a pilot tried to get out and failed? Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: cecilth@juno.com > > Seems to me that if you install a 'pull pin' at each side if the canopy > where it connects to the roller (on a slider). > In flight, just pull both pins, undo open the handle, push up on the > canopy, and its gone, period. This is for emergency only. Am I wrong?? > Cecil > > > On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 11:52:19 -0800 Scott Bilinski > writes: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > Your right, with a fire you still have control of the plane so it is > > > > possible. If the plane is broke and your speed is up, I dont think > > it is > > going to happen. Hmmmmmm, I am thinking of carrying something to pry > > the > > canopy open with now, its starting to sound like a better and better > > idea, > > it can also double for a canopy breaker to get out if flipped over. > > I just > > dont like the over simplification of "just opening" the canopy I > > guess that > > was my main point. Im done on this topic. > > > > > > At 12:38 PM 11/12/2004 -0700, you wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Daniels > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > > > > > > > Your canopy slides back in flight? On my 8 it will not, unless > > maybe I > > > > have > > > > some sort of pry bar. We have been through this in the past and > > I am > > > > amazed > > > > at how easy people think it is to open/close the canopy in > > flight. No > > > > insults intended towards anyone just my experience. > > > > > >None taken, however we have also been shown that an RV8 canopy can > > be > > >ejected in flight. Why do we continue to ignore the fact that it > > has > > >(tragically) been proven already? > > > > > >Jim Daniels > > > > > > > > > > > > Scott Bilinski > > Eng dept 305 > > Phone (858) 657-2536 > > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:14 PM PST US From: Kathleen@rv7.us Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us Very good idea. Have you tried pulling the pins with LOTS of pressure on the canopy? We'd probably all like to know if it works. Just don't break your canopy trying.. :-) Kathleen Evans www.rv7.us -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Never done it. Hope I never have to. But I installed quick release pins just in case. http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2003/11/canopy.html - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Kathleen@rv7.us [mailto:Kathleen@rv7.us] > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 3:10 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > > So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to > blue sky while you chatter into the intercom telling your > friend how easy it is in your RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" > Next you're whistling toward earth at mach 45, but not > worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the > airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your > slider and pull and pull and pull... > > Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > > Kathleen Evans > www.rv7.us ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 06:02:45 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 11/12/2004 6:37:15 PM Central Standard Time, szicree@adelphia.net writes: but having a real plane in my garage is amazing. >>>> Just wait'll ya get to spin it!!!!!! 8-) Mark & do not archive ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:54 PM PST US From: "Edward Cole" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7 tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable forces. In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift struts, pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit the aircraft. The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level and in control of the aircraft, why jump out? The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy. Ed Cole RV6A N2169D Flying RV6A N648RV Finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Walrath Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" A related question to those posed below is the provision in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they have found that useful to allow complete removal of the tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel. My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate having to try and break out through the canopy when upside down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent. During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows of someone who has. Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Bilinski" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down to > just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail out? > > > At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: >>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us >> >>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky >>while >>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in your >>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at mach >>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control the >>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and pull >>and pull and pull... >> >>Can you open it? Has anyone ever? >> >>Kathleen Evans >>www.rv7.us >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu >>To: rv-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight >> >>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" >> >>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on takeoff >>and >>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. It >>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, the >>other latch the handle. >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> >>To: >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight >> >> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> >> > >> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try as I >> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the runway >> > end >> > for fear of it opening further un flight. >> > >> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by >> > itself. >>I >> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is only >>open >> > a few inches. >> > What are the groups experiences? >> > >> > >> > --- >> > >> > >> >>--- >> >> > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 07:49:09 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even when his/her life depends on it? I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe that in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Cole" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" > > If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7 > tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be > lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable > forces. > In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift > struts, > pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against > a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit > the aircraft. > The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to > go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level > and in control of the aircraft, why jump out? > The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be > practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with > an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy. > > > Ed Cole > RV6A N2169D Flying > RV6A N648RV Finishing > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Howard Walrath > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" > > > A related question to those posed below is the provision > in many "Tilt-Up" RV-6/6A's that are equipped with an > emergency handle in the panel that will pull out the canopy > arm hinge pins. Some builders have remarked that they > have found that useful to allow complete removal of the > tilt-up canopy for working behind the instrument panel. > > My RV-6A does not have that pin removal provision and > I have often wondered whether it would reaaly work to > jetison the canopy to permit bail out or -- just to try and obviate > having to try and break out through the canopy when upside > down if an off-airport landing on unsuitable terrain was imminent. > > During one of Van's forums at Air Venture 2004, I posed that > question to Van's chief engineer, and his staff remarked that they > didn't know if it would work in flight and didn't know of anyone > who'd tried to jettison a tip-up. Maybe someone on this list knows > of someone who has. > > Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW flying 390 hours > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Bilinski" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > > > Good point. I hear you open the canopy in flight but need to slow down > to > > just above stall speed........Now if you can do that then why bail > out? > > > > > > At 12:09 AM 11/12/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us > >> > >>So, you're watching blue sky turn to green fields and back to blue sky > > >>while > >>you chatter into the intercom telling your friend how easy it is in > your > >>RV-#, when there is a, "bang!" Next you're whistling toward earth at > mach > >>45, but not worried because you wore your chute. You can't control > the > >>airplane, so it's time to hit the silk. You unlatch your slider and > pull > >>and pull and pull... > >> > >>Can you open it? Has anyone ever? > >> > >>Kathleen Evans > >>www.rv7.us > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > >>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DejaVu > >>To: rv-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight > >> > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" > >> > >>Yup, been there in my -6. No worries. It popped up about 4" on > takeoff > >>and > >>stayed there. Came around to down wind just in case while closing it. > It > >>closed fine in flight. It does take both hands - one to pull it down, > the > >>other latch the handle. > >> > >>----- Original Message ----- > >>From: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > >>To: > >>Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Open In FLight > >> > >> > >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > >> > > >> > I started to take off once with the canopy open 2" in my RV6A. Try > as I > >> > might I could not budge the canopy. I Landed just short of the > runway > >> > end > >> > for fear of it opening further un flight. > >> > > >> > Anyone ever fly with the canopy open? I'm not sure it will open by > >> > itself. > >>I > >> > believe the aerodynamics are working to close it at least if it is > only > >>open > >> > a few inches. > >> > What are the groups experiences? > >> > > >> > > >> > --- > >> > > >> > > >> > >>--- > >> > >> > > > > > > Scott Bilinski > > Eng dept 305 > > Phone (858) 657-2536 > > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:09 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer steve zicree wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only >exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the >downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even >when his/her life depends on it? > >I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got >tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a >Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of >being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the >aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe that >in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of. > >Steve Zicree > > > >> Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye. do not archive Jerry ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:30 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Springer" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > steve zicree wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > >I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only > >exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the > >downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even > >when his/her life depends on it? > > > >I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got > >tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a > >Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of > >being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the > >aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe that > >in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of. > > > >Steve Zicree > > > > > > > >> > Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye. > > do not archive > > Jerry > > ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:58 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan steve zicree wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only > exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the > downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even > when his/her life depends on it? Yes. Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-) Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:20 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I don't want to prove anyone wrong, but I'm curious about just how much downforce is created. If it really is on the order of hundreds of pounds, shouldn't Vans try to develop a more efficient canopy? All that force is shoving the aircraft downward and taking away from useful baggage, fuel capacity, etc. Are you also saying that this tremendous force exists while in a spin? I really don't understand how this can be. Can you explain? Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sam Buchanan" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > steve zicree wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only > > exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is the > > downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, even > > when his/her life depends on it? > > > Yes. > > Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-) > > Sam Buchanan > > ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:29 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer steve zicree wrote: Strange, the Decathlon I used to fly had a big red handle that was pretty easy to reach. You sound like you are a pretty new pilot? Jerry do not archive >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it >wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular >door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane. > >Steve > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jerry Springer" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer >> >>steve zicree wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" >>> >>>I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only >>>exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is >>> >>> >the > > >>>downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, >>> >>> >even > > >>>when his/her life depends on it? >>> >>>I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got >>>tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a >>>Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of >>>being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the >>>aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe >>> >>> >that > > >>>in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of. >>> >>>Steve Zicree >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye. >> >>do not archive >> >>Jerry >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:18 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" I don't think I quite soiled my underwear, but my first introduction to a spin entry came while on a supervised solo flight in a C-150. I was told to go to a nearby airport for fuel and practice stalls along the way. I did a full power stall with a lazy right foot. I gave a little extra pull to hasten the process and all of a sudden I was looking at the ground after going over the left wing. After a very brief "oh my god", I pulled the power, leveled the wings and pulled out. It was going very fast by that time. I don't think I consciously released back pressure first. It scared me off stalls pretty good and I was too embarrassed to mention it to my instructor. If I hadn't had some altitude I'd have been toast. In my case, just the regular unusual attitude recovery drills I'd done pre-solo were enough to save my bacon. After I got my license, I got some spin training and came to enjoy them. Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Dwight, My first exposure to spins was exactly as you described. In spite of all my previous instructor's verbal instructions, I'm pretty certain that without the first hand training I would not have been able to recover (soiling underwear is not an approved spin recovery technique). Steve Zicree do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight Frye" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training > --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye > > On Fri Nov 12 11:08:01 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote : > >Recent discussion here and an article in Flying talked about the reduced > >focus on stall training in modern flight instruction programs, and > >seemed to question the need for stall / spin training. > [ ... snip ... ] > > I had to explicitly seek out spin training, and did so more out of morbid > curiosity (and the fact that spinning sounded fun) than anything else. I > had to travel get to the instructor, and she took me through a graduated > series of exercises in a 150 Aerobat. I had read about spins, studied the > recovery techniques, and felt I had a clue. > > I didn't have a clue. The first spin was a simple "ride along while the > instructor does a 1/4 turn spin" to see what it was all about. On the > stall break she stomped the rudder, the wing went down with a vengeance > followed very shortly after by the nose. My eyeballs went wide and all > I could do was suck in a lot of air. > > If that had been me alone ... I would have died. Maybe within the 3k feet > we had I would have gotten through sucking in air and actually started to > do something about the situation, but I can't swear I would have. The > phrase "deer in the headlights" comes to mind. > > After that we did a series of spins, left and right, with more and more > turns, with the "graduation" being her spinning and me recovering. I had > to take hands/feet off the controls, let her get us into a fully developed > spin, then I had to look up .. figure out which ways the cows were going > by the windscreen ... and recover. I did this about three times, with each > one being *fun* by that point. No wide-eyed gasping any longer. > > Should it be required? People I respect say "no". Others I respect say "yes". > Am I glad *I* did it? You betcha! :) > > -- Dwight > > do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:06 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under controlled flight. Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of control to open your canopy. Edward Cole wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" > >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7 >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable >forces. >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift >struts, >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit >the aircraft. >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out? >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy. > > >Ed Cole >RV6A N2169D Flying >RV6A N648RV Finishing > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:06 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I flew one today and it had a little bitty safety pin somewher near my right knee that should be nearly impossible to reach while spinning earthward. Once that's out, you still gotta get ahold of the handle and crank it about 90 degrees or so to drive out the hinge pin. Much easier to just smack the handle with my elbow I think. I've been flying for only four years, so I guess that makes me new. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Springer" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > > steve zicree wrote: > > Strange, the Decathlon I used to fly had a big red handle that was > pretty easy to reach. You sound like you are > a pretty new pilot? > > Jerry > do not archive > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > >Decathlons do have a safety pin and release handle, but in this case it > >wasn't used. The pin is small and kind of hard to reach, and the regular > >door handle was easier to get to in a spinning plane. > > > >Steve > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jerry Springer" > >To: > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > > > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer > >> > >>steve zicree wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >>> > >>>I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only > >>>exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to do that. Is > >>> > >>> > >the > > > > > >>>downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman can lift it, > >>> > >>> > >even > > > > > >>>when his/her life depends on it? > >>> > >>>I once met a guy who bailed out of a Decathlon when the aft stick got > >>>tangled up on the rear seatbelt during spins. Granted, the door on a > >>>Decathlon is much smaller than a canopy, but he did open it in spite of > >>>being tossed about. It's also worth noting that in such a mishap, the > >>>aircraft is stalled and thus at a very high angle of attack. I believe > >>> > >>> > >that > > > > > >>>in such an attitude the canopy might be quite easy to get rid of. > >>> > >>>Steve Zicree > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>Decathlon had a handle you pull and door goes bye bye. > >> > >>do not archive > >> > >>Jerry > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:23 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I remember well, and sadly have to agree. The circumstances that would require and allow a succesful egress and chute deployment are very, very narrow indeed. However, if things do come to it, it may be the ONLY way to survive and therefore deserves thoughtful consideration. The tone of many of the more experienced gents on here brings to mind another highly experienced master of machinery who didn't take the claims of safety equipment advocates seriously and paid: Dale Earnhardt. When I started flying only 4 short years ago, every old timer I met said that GPS was crap and would never take the place of the trusty VOR! New ideas are GOOD! Investigation is GOOD! Open-minded humility is GOOD. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen > > I can think of one situation where I'd open the canopy and egress under > controlled flight. > > Anyone remember Von Alexander? There's more reasons than just loss of > control to open your canopy. > > Edward Cole wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Edward Cole" > > > >If the situation arose that you would consider bailing out of a RV6/7 > >tilt-up, I would assume that control of the aircraft would have to be > >lost and you would be flailing about the cabin against unimaginable > >forces. > >In this case you would still have to be able to disconnect the lift > >struts, > >pull the emergency release handle, push the canopy up far enough against > >a 150-200 mph wind to throw it up over your head before you could exit > >the aircraft. > >The other scenario is that you are straight and level and still have to > >go through the same maneuvers. Of course if you were straight and level > >and in control of the aircraft, why jump out? > >The bottom line is that jettisoning the canopy in flight would be > >practically impossible. The posts concerning takeoff and flight with > >an open canopy shows how tough it is to even move the canopy. > > > > > >Ed Cole > >RV6A N2169D Flying > >RV6A N648RV Finishing > > > > > > -- > Scott VanArtsdalen > Van Arts Consulting Services > 3848 McHenry Ave > Suite #155-184 > Modesto, CA 95356 > 209-986-4647 > Ps 34:4,6 > > ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:18 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen Amen to that. steve zicree wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > Open-minded humility is GOOD. > > > > ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 10:26:24 PM PST US From: "DejaVu" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training --> RV-List message posted by: "DejaVu" I'm fortunate enough to have spun in a variety of aircraft along with a variety of very capable pilots. Spins can be a lot of fun once you get over the initial pucker factor. Afterall most aircraft behave like a falling leaf - vice diving for the earth. Inverted spins would most definitely surprise you if you're not familiar with the behaviors beforehand. Make sure you're briefed on the spin characteristics of a particular aircraft and rehearse it in your mind well to minimize the surprise factor. When you tuck the stick of a P-51D, for example, against your lap belt and kick left rudder at the right moment, guess what, it snaps right - every time (that's goodness). One other aircraft that I can think of right now would spin 1/4 turn and accelerate the spin rate quickly for the another 1/2 turn while pitching up at the same time. Then it slows down and pitch down for the remaining 1/4 turn and the cycle repeats itself. Try to recover from a spin to a particular heading. That can be a lot of fun, especially when the spin does not stop for 3/4 turn or 11/2 turn once you initiate the recovery. Spins keep you in tune with the aircraft and your situational awareness alive of what's happening around you. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Stall Training > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > > > > I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and > he > > demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been > > dirty-side-up before, > > > > Mark Phillips > > ================================== > > Dirty side up???? > > Are you sure? > > > Bob > > Do not archive > > > --- > > --- ________________________________ Message 76 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:54 PM PST US From: "James E. Clark" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "James E. Clark" As I recall, our tip-up is hard enough to remove **ON THE GROUND!!** with two people working at it. I **think** the newer (within last 5-6 years??) have a hook in the mechanism that would make it very difficult to simply "jettison" in flight. There is some **upward** force for the first inch or so and I *think* the canopy tries to stabilize slightly open. To get it closed requires slowing down and/or certain maneuvers to counter the pressures. These comments are based on some actual experiences and direct comments from someone with actual experience with a tip-up canopy that was half locked in my case an no locked at all in the other case. I do not have knowledge about what happens in a spin. "Don't try this at home.". "Your mileage may vary." Stay safe! James > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of steve zicree > Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 11:44 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > I don't want to prove anyone wrong, but I'm curious about just how much > downforce is created. If it really is on the order of hundreds of pounds, > shouldn't Vans try to develop a more efficient canopy? All that force is > shoving the aircraft downward and taking away from useful baggage, fuel > capacity, etc. > > Are you also saying that this tremendous force exists while in a spin? I > really don't understand how this can be. Can you explain? > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sam Buchanan" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan > > > > steve zicree wrote: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > > > I may be missing something here, but the entire 20 foot long wing only > > > exerts 1000 pounds or so of upward lift and it's DESIGNED to > do that. Is > the > > > downforce on that little canopy so great that no man/woman > can lift it, > even > > > when his/her life depends on it? > > > > > > Yes. > > > > Now......prove I'm wrong............ :-) > > > > Sam Buchanan > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 77 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:39 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Great comments, Tom, and I agree with 923te that someone could add these audio features to the PSS AOA system. Perhaps Jim Franz, the guy that builds them! Mickey At 01:56 13-11-04, 923te wrote: -----Start of Original Message----- >--> RV-List message posted by: "923te" <923te@cox.net> > >Good points Tom. > >I wonder how easy it would be for one of the electrical gurus on this list >to make a aural tone annuciator like you describe that would attach to the >PSS AOA system? > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tom Gummo" >To: >Subject: Re: RV-List: re: Stall Warnings, etc > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" >> >> One more thought on AOA: >> >> >> I was trained on AOA and love the system. >> >> >> Do I have one in my plane? Yes, the PSS Sport model is high on my >> instrument panel. >> >> >> Do I use it? Yes, put not as much as I thought I would. >> >> >> Why? In the military, the AOA system had two things I don't have in my >> plane. The first is that AOA was installed high enough on the canopy bow >to >> see while looking out the front of the aircraft (the F-4 didn't have a >HUD). >> My Rocket doesn't have a place to install the AOA in clear view. What I >> miss the most, however, is the aural tone in the headset. This system >didn't >> just say "Angle Angle Push Push" but used sound to tell you what the AOA >of >> the aircraft was doing. As the AOA started to increase from the cruise >> speed level, there started to be a very slow beeping tone. As the AOA >> increased farther, the beeping rate and sound level increased. At "ON >> SPEED", the AOA of approach speed, the tone became steady (no reason to >> look in the cockpit). As the AOA increased past the approach speed range >> and moved to the stall speed area, the tone increase in volume and started >> beeping again but in a very irritating manner. Therefore, the pilot could >> look anywhere he wanted and knew what the aircraft AOA status was. >> >> >> Can I use it as a backup? Maybe, but my system has only one pitot and >> static air systems. So if the error is not inside the airspeed indicator, >> it may show errors too. >> >> >> A point I hadn't seen anybody else address (if you have and I just missed >> it, sorry), AOA can be used to find several other speeds besides stall. >> What about L/D max? What, if you really need to make that max climb angle >> to get out of the short field with tall tress at the end of the runway? >> What if you need to stretch that engine out glide to make the landing area >> you have picked? The speed changes depending upon gross weight, while the >> proper AOA should remain the same. >> >> >> Tom Gummo >> Apple Valley, CA >> Harmon Rocket-II >> >> do not archive >> >> http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html >> >> -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage