Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:01 AM - Spins and AOA (Wheeler North)
2. 12:07 AM - E- Mag test flights (Wheeler North)
3. 12:14 AM - Re: planes are fun (Bob 1)
4. 12:59 AM - Re: planes are fun (Bob 1)
5. 01:31 AM - Re: planes are fun (Mickey Coggins)
6. 02:01 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Mickey Coggins)
7. 02:29 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Kevin Horton)
8. 03:26 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Mickey Coggins)
9. 04:41 AM - Re: E- Mag test flights (RVer273sb@aol.com)
10. 05:47 AM - Re: planes are fun (Larry Bowen)
11. 05:52 AM - Re: planes are fun (Richard Bibb)
12. 06:44 AM - Inadvertent Spin (Paul Besing)
13. 07:02 AM - Re: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems (Emrath)
14. 07:02 AM - Re: AOA - when going straight up (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club)
15. 08:04 AM - Re: planes are fun (Richard Lundin)
16. 08:30 AM - Re: planes are fun (Jerry Springer)
17. 08:55 AM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
18. 08:55 AM - Re: planes are fun (Gordon or Marge Comfort)
19. 09:02 AM - Re: planes are fun (John Danielson)
20. 09:04 AM - Re: Inadvertent Spin (steve zicree)
21. 09:13 AM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
22. 09:22 AM - Re: planes are fun (Jim Streit)
23. 09:31 AM - Re: planes are fun (steve zicree)
24. 09:54 AM - Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider (JTAnon@aol.com)
25. 10:14 AM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Howard Walrath)
26. 10:27 AM - Re: planes are fun Redux (I hope!) (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
27. 10:40 AM - Re: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider (Ross S)
28. 11:10 AM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (Konrad Werner)
29. 11:12 AM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Brian Denk)
30. 11:45 AM - [ Keith T Uhls ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
31. 11:46 AM - Locking the Slider Canopy (Charlie)
32. 11:46 AM - OT - Interesting approach to Baghdad (Mickey Coggins)
33. 11:51 AM - Re: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider (Pat Hatch)
34. 11:59 AM - Re: planes are fun (Bob 1)
35. 11:59 AM - Re: planes are fun (Randy Compton)
36. 12:03 PM - Spins and canopies (steve zicree)
37. 12:27 PM - Re: Canopy latch (Dave Durakovich)
38. 12:30 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Mickey Coggins)
39. 12:37 PM - Re: Spins and AOA (Larry Pardue)
40. 12:51 PM - Oil where I didn't expect it (thomas a. sargent)
41. 12:51 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree)
42. 01:34 PM - Re: Re: Canopy latch (JOHN STARN)
43. 01:35 PM - Re: Inadvertent Spin (Dan Checkoway)
44. 01:37 PM - Re: Stall & Spin Training (EMAproducts@aol.com)
45. 01:45 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Randy Lervold)
46. 02:03 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Alex Peterson)
47. 02:46 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree)
48. 03:00 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Larry Bowen)
49. 03:00 PM - Re: planes are fun (Chris W)
50. 03:10 PM - Too Cool! (David Schaefer)
51. 03:28 PM - LOE 5 Move (Gary Zilik)
52. 03:37 PM - Re: planes are fun (linn walters)
53. 03:40 PM - Re: planes are fun (linn walters)
54. 03:54 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Brian Denk)
55. 03:58 PM - Re: LOE 5 Move (Brian Denk)
56. 04:15 PM - Re: LOE 5 Move (Larry Pardue)
57. 04:24 PM - Re: Re: Stall & Spin Training (linn walters)
58. 05:47 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Doug Rozendaal)
59. 05:49 PM - Re: planes are fun (Scott VanArtsdalen)
60. 05:53 PM - Re: planes are fun (Bob 1)
61. 06:13 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (John Danielson)
62. 06:31 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Bob 1)
63. 06:33 PM - Trutrak in an RV-3B (Ken Simmons)
64. 06:45 PM - Edge Gromment? (Bobby Hester)
65. 06:49 PM - Re: Trutrak in an RV-3B (Dan Checkoway)
66. 07:09 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree)
67. 07:17 PM - Re: Edge Gromment? (thomas a. sargent)
68. 07:38 PM - Chapter 486 RV Forum? (Jim Cimino)
69. 07:41 PM - Re: Edge Gromment? (Stein Bruch)
70. 07:42 PM - Re: Edge Gromment? (thomas a. sargent)
71. 08:03 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jack Ford)
72. 09:12 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Jim Oke)
73. 09:21 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree)
74. 09:29 PM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (Jim Oke)
75. 09:53 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (JOHN STARN)
76. 10:07 PM - Re: Trutrak in an RV-3B (Randy Lervold)
77. 11:05 PM - The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
Message 1
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"'owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com '"@matronics.com
--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
Well,
I have to go back to a pitch that I have heard Van give a dozen times.
Practice slow flight..... a lot, regularly.
I have regularly gone out and shot about 20 consecutive stalls at various
attitudes and conditions at least three or four times a year. After that the
engine needs to cool down, but it realy improves my landings when I do it.
Don't know about other planes, but RVs will stall nicely going straight up,
done it many times when pulling too much in a slow loop. They'll do it going
straight down as well.
I would also caution since there has been so much discussion about spins
that those with small tail sixes remember Van's caution against spins.
In fact I was going to ask Jerry S if he has noticed much difference in spin
recovery with his larger vert and rudder? Although I used to spin some on
other aircraft I have resisted this since the old guy who designed these
puppies didn't recommend it. I would love to go back to doing them though,
so am curious if the big tail is a legitimate fix for this.
As I said in an earlier post, the Dynon D-10A should already have an audio
AOA capacity. I don't know if they have the software part of it worked out
though as I haven't upgraded to it yet. You Dynon boys out lurking on the
list have any input on this???
W
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Message 2
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"'owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com '"@matronics.com
| Subject: | E- Mag test flights |
--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
I forgot the person's name who was flying one of these but I was wondering
if there was any effect on your CHTs when you went to the new unit.
Also, what spark plug option did you go for?, and did you go for the MAP
option?
W
do not archive
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Oh, and one more thing. When you excerpt my post, at least do me the
> courtesy of not intentionally deleting context in order to strengthen your
> position.
===========================================
Please disregard the earlier recommendation that you take a deep breath,
relax and enjoy "Stick and Rudder".
Instead, may I recommend.... "How to Win Friends and Influence people"
Would you like to make more friends? Would you like to be able to persuade
more people to your way of thinking? Then you will want to put How To Win
Friends & Influence People on your annual reading list.
http://www.profitadvisors.com/friends.shtml
Do not archive
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:40:24 PM Central Standard Time,
> Larry@bowenaero.com writes:
> It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is
it
> more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is
there
> more to it?
> >>>>
>
> Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van advises against it, at least
> more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some pretty darn cool videos of
some
> dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a dozen times or more, IIRC.
> Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list of things to do, way
below
> loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra firma- I just don't
understand
> why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't give me that "accident"
crap-
> you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me it's just like the drug
thing-
> JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a consenting adult!)
>
> C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and yer stick in the other-
why
> toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a Darwin award maybe?
>
> Mark - do not archive
==========================================
Mark,
I use to be able to truthfully say that I spun everything that I ever
flew....
Until fate introduced me to a youthful, but bright and persuasive aero
engineer in Wichita KS.
He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in a
homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious, one
of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
I've owned 3 homebuilts now.
Never spun a one of 'em.
YMMV, if Darwin is your hero.
Bob - over 50 years of flight and maybe old enough to know better.... about
some things.
Do not archive
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>...
>He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in a
>homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious, one
>of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
>...
Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>> >First off, my understanding is that there is significant up force on a
>> >closed canopy. ...
>>
>>This does not seem intuitive to me. Looking at the front
>>of an RV8, the top of the canopy sticks up over the top
>>of the windscreen, which tells me that the forces would
>>be pushing the canopy down, at least at the top of the
>>canopy.
>
>If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
>curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
>force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
>accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
>that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
>top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
>thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
>of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
>fall.
>
>Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
>First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
>force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
>windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
>curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
>curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
>free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
>to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
>canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
>simply different views of the same phenomenon.
This is a bit brutal for a Sunday morning! :-)
I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been seen to be far less
than originally postulated, and that it's really Newton's third law
of physics (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)
that allows us to fly. Essentially, we are pushing a mass of air down
that exactly equals the amount of lift that the airplane generates.
Also, since there are so many lifting surface shapes and angles of
attack that it seems surprising that the canopy shape happens to be
one that generates lift. These are all things that made me guess,
and it's only a guess, that the forces on the canopy would be downward.
Looks like I'll have to do some tufting when I get flying to get a
better answer, or perhaps more confused!
Best regards,
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
> >If we follow the same logic, we should conclude that the air would hit the
> >curved part on the upper leading edge of the wing, and cause a downwards
> >force. But it doesn't - the force on the wing is upwards, because the air
> >accelerates over that curved leading edge. And Bernoulli's Law tells us
> >that the air pressure decreases when it accelerates. The lower pressure on
> >top of the wing makes a significant contribution to the lift. The same
> >thing happens as the air goes over the windscreen and the curved front part
> >of the canopy. The air has to accelerate, and that causes the pressure to
> >fall.
> >
> >Another, more complicated, way to look at it is to consider that Newton's
> >First Law tells us that an object continues in a straight line unless a
> >force is applied to it. So, the air that is going up the slope of the
> >windscreen would tend to keep going in that direction. But it follows a
> >curved path to go over the top of the canopy. It is forced into this
> >curved path because the pressure at the canopy surface is lower than the
> >free stream pressure. This pressure difference provides the force needed
> >to push that air stream "around the corner" from the windscreen to the
> >canopy top. The Newton's First Law and Bernoulli's Law explanation are
> >simply different views of the same phenomenon.
>
>This is a bit brutal for a Sunday morning! :-)
>
>I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been seen to be far less
>than originally postulated, and that it's really Newton's third law
>of physics (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction)
>that allows us to fly. Essentially, we are pushing a mass of air down
>that exactly equals the amount of lift that the airplane generates.
>Also, since there are so many lifting surface shapes and angles of
>attack that it seems surprising that the canopy shape happens to be
>one that generates lift. These are all things that made me guess,
>and it's only a guess, that the forces on the canopy would be downward.
>
>Looks like I'll have to do some tufting when I get flying to get a
>better answer, or perhaps more confused!
>
>Best regards,
>Mickey
When you say that that "I thought that Bernoulli effect of lift has been
seen to be far less
than originally postulated", you may be referring to the popular
misapplication where people try to say that the path around the top of the
wing is longer than over the bottom, and that the air must go faster as a
result. This is wrong. But, the air does accelerate as it goes over the
top, and Bernoulli correctly predicts that the pressure will be lower due
to the higher speed. So Bernoulli's Law isn't wrong, it is just the
over-simplification that people use.
If you look at the pressure distribution around the wing, the difference in
pressure explains the amount of lift. Or, you can measure the amount the
air is deflected downwards, and that also explains the lift. They are
simply different views of the same phenomenon. Just because one view can
explain that is happening doesn't mean that the other one is invalid. Pick
what ever explanation fits the way your brain is wired. The aircraft won't
know the difference. :)
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0005.shtml
Kevin Horton
RV-8 (Finishing Kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/bernnew.html
>http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0005.shtml
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the links and the clarifications - very interesting reading!
Mickey
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: E- Mag test flights |
--> RV-List message posted by: RVer273sb@aol.com
That would be me most likely.
I am now running total electronic ignition on my
0-320 powered RV-4. I have the P-mag on the left
and the E-mag on the right. Thus far I have seen a
slight increase in cht and egt from what I am used to.
My engine has always run on the cold side in the RV-4
so this is not a problem. Temps are prety much normal
in cruise.. I have to run the mixture a bit richer than I am
used to but I can see a drop in fuel consumption. I have
6 hrs on the dual system so accurate numbers are yet
to be calculated.
I have the optional MAP feature on mine. What mag drop
there is very smooth and almost non existent.
Stewart RV-4 Colorado
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Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Someday, I will botch an aerobatic maneuver and find myself in a spin. I'd
rather not be totally surprised when that happens. So, it makes sense to me
to start with spins. Sounds like you are an outstanding pilot and this will
never happen to you. I'm not that good.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:49 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:40:24 PM Central Standard
> Time, Larry@bowenaero.com writes:
> It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a
> Decathalon. Is it more of the same, just quicker to
> accelerate when pointed down? Or is there more to it?
> >>>>
>
> Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van advises against
> it, at least
> more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some pretty darn
> cool videos of some
> dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a dozen times
> or more, IIRC.
> Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list of things
> to do, way below
> loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra firma- I
> just don't understand
> why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't give me that
> "accident" crap-
> you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me it's just
> like the drug thing-
> JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a consenting adult!)
>
> C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and yer stick
> in the other- why
> toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a Darwin award maybe?
>
> Mark - do not archive
>
>
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" <rebibb@comcast.net>
> >...
> >He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in
a
> >homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious,
one
> >of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
> >...
>
> Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
>
>
With a spin 'shute for starters. Look on Van's website about the flight
testing of the RV-10 and notice the spin 'shute....
When I first flew my -4 I went up and did a spin both left and right for
maybe 1/2-1 turn. It was rather benign but I would not do it again without
taking a spin training course in something like a Pitts. Not because the -4
spins badly but because I now know that spins in small airplanes that wind
up fast can kill you as it is easy to get disoriented. I lost a friend who
spun in practicing for an aerobatic contest. He had thousands of hours
flying all sorts of acro planes and I learned from his demise that I sure
didn't know enough about this.
I agree with the post on practicing slow flight - best thing you can do to
gain profiency in any airplane IMHO.
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Inadvertent Spin |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
I too have spun an RV-6A. It was unintentional. I was conducting some test
flying for friend's plane, and was doing a departure stall. It broke very
sharply, and violently. It took about 2000 feet and 3 turns before I
realized what I was in. I had no formal spin training before then. I was
shown one or two, but that was it.
Now that I am a CFI, I have had the formal spin training. And I can tell
you this, I will never spin an RV again. It was just too tight and fast.
But most of all, the biggest problem I saw was my lack of recognition. Had
I not been doing my testing at 5000' agl, I don't think I would be here to
talk about it. Spin training should be done at the private pilot level,
and on BFR's in my opinion, but we know the lawyers would never have it that
way!
Paul Besing
RV-6A Sold
RV-10 Soon
http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
http://www.kitlog.com
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Message 13
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| Subject: | RE: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Emrath" <emrath@comcast.net>
Sorry folks for the general posting, if uninterested, delete now.
I have been trying to contact Stein to ask some questions about the
momentary "drop" in oil pressure experienced with the Christian set up. My
efforts to contract Stein directly have been returned as undeliverable.
I'm not familiar with these systems, can anyone advise me about this
momentary "drop" in pressure? When does this occur and for how long? Does
one really need to use the vac. Pump pad attachment or will the stock
Christian installation with a hose to the breather not work satisfactory?
Thanks for the education.
Marty in Brentwood TN
Subject: RE: Re: RV-Listt: Christen 801 Inverted Oil Systems
From: Stein Bruch (stein@steinair.com)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
No Different whe it comes to the vac.pump pad fitting. Many people can & do
use the same vac.pump pad fitting for the Christen systems. This keeps the
momentary "drop" in pressure from happening.
That being said, the Christen system is still significatly more expensive
than the "clone" which from what I've seen is basically the same thing, just
a copy.
Just an FYI..
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
Rv6's, Minneapolis (one with Inverted fuel/oil).
---
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Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: AOA - when going straight up |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" <sisson@consolidated.net>
HAL KEMPTHORNE wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: HAL KEMPTHORNE <hal_kempthorne@sbcglobal.net>
>
>Phil S. says there wouldn't be relative wind if your RV was going straight up.
I can see that it might not amount to much, but there would be some wouldn't
there? I'm not nit picking but just interested in learning.
>
>If one was going straight up in an F16 and fast enough, there would also be lift
I should think. I wonder what the stick forces would be then?
>
>hal
>
>
>
Hal,
Actually, I didn't say there would be no relative wind when going
straight up. I said there would be no relative wind if there was zero
air speed, and therefor no angle of Attack., If an airplane is not
moving through the air, there is no relative wind.. actuqlly there is a
lot of relative wind when you pull to vertical and it will simply
diminish as you progress up the vertical line. The controls get softer
and softer until you stop, At that point you still have some elevator
and rudder authority from the prop blast but not as much, then very
soon, you will be coming backwards tail first. Don't do this in an RV.
I'm not sure what that .016 skin would do on some of the control surfaces.
I also said an airplane Can stall when going straight up such as what
happens when an vertical snap roll is performed on an "up" line..
I just didnt make my self clear..Read it again. My comments are in
the ( brackets ) ,,,
Phil
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Message 15
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=T0pQswtJ04Q+aAL37t9k/COaDqHw3m/8DwIUQh9oFjTbe5IKAKXYosoz1buyINtyHWkjKPWfo782kc+91QOLGDCXVmVLydkpolYXb+7vRt2xr1ZoA6Sx1j6eyzx+1PtmiXxt4ZXJf9frln3frvk6kgZBafr/Neu0LGrt5IF6KvE=
;
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Lundin <rlundin46@yahoo.com>
I did a spin in a C-150 by accident when I was
learning to do power on stalls. It's a good thing my
instructor knew what to do. He explained the recovery
and we never did another spin.
Years later while getting tail drager time in a Champ
the instructor asked if I'd had spin training, and
would I like to. No and yes respectively. So we did
lots of spins over the next couple days along with
many T&Gs. Spins are no big deal once you've done a
few. I'm glad I took time with a qualified instructor
to learn them.
Rick
--- Larry Bowen <Larry@bowenaero.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen"
> <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
> Someday, I will botch an aerobatic maneuver and find
> myself in a spin. I'd
> rather not be totally surprised when that happens.
> So, it makes sense to me
> to start with spins. Sounds like you are an
> outstanding pilot and this will
> never happen to you. I'm not that good.
>
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com]
>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 11:49 PM
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
> >
> > In a message dated 11/13/2004 2:40:24 PM Central
> Standard
> > Time, Larry@bowenaero.com writes:
> > It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172
> and a
> > Decathalon. Is it more of the same, just quicker
> to
> > accelerate when pointed down? Or is there more to
> it?
> > >>>>
> >
> > Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van
> advises against
> > it, at least
> > more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some
> pretty darn
> > cool videos of some
> > dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a
> dozen times
> > or more, IIRC.
> > Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list
> of things
> > to do, way below
> > loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra
> firma- I
> > just don't understand
> > why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't
> give me that
> > "accident" crap-
> > you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me
> it's just
> > like the drug thing-
> > JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a
> consenting adult!)
> >
> > C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and
> yer stick
> > in the other- why
> > toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a
> Darwin award maybe?
> >
> > Mark - do not archive
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
The questions should really be what is your problem? You do a lot of
talking for someone who really
does not have a clue what they are talking about or the experience in
said arplane to back it up. I really
doubt Sam is "terrified" of spinning." I have done many loops and
split-s' and other aerobatics without
having done spins in my RV. I do not feel that doing so is as you say
"dumb as it gets" maybe there is a
reason you have been a lurker for years and have not opened your mouth
before?
Jerry
do not archive
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post I was responding to a bit
>more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about doing split-s's and loops
>in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?! Does this really make
>sense to you? Can a botched loop turn into a spin? A split-s? Did I say that
>the plane spins well? Did I say he should rush out and see? I simply
>suggested that a spin in a 6 was probably not the end of the world and that
>aerobatics should not be done without adequate spin recovery training in
>SOMETHING. I've made it clear that I've no experience in RV's, but I know
>enough to know that aerobatics without solid spin recovery capability is
>about as dumb as it gets. As for the canopy thing, I'll give in to your
>all-knowing-ness: I hereby declare that it is impossible for a tip-up canopy
>to be jetissoned in any flight regime by anyone or anything, and that nobody
>will ever find a way to do so. I further promise to cease any investigation
>into said problem until I have accumulated sufficient RV flight time as
>determined by the elders of the RV list or 606 hrs, whichever comes first.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Mark,
>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>deal you think it is.
>>>
>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>
>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>spins would expect.
>>
>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>
>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do
>>
>>
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Actually I did read Carnegie's book years ago and I don't remeber there
being a chapter on kissing the a$$ of "experts" just to feed their overblown
egos.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > Oh, and one more thing. When you excerpt my post, at least do me the
> > courtesy of not intentionally deleting context in order to strengthen
your
> > position.
>
> ===========================================
>
> Please disregard the earlier recommendation that you take a deep breath,
> relax and enjoy "Stick and Rudder".
>
> Instead, may I recommend.... "How to Win Friends and Influence people"
>
> Would you like to make more friends? Would you like to be able to persuade
> more people to your way of thinking? Then you will want to put How To Win
> Friends & Influence People on your annual reading list.
>
> http://www.profitadvisors.com/friends.shtml
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
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Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Mark,
I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses
start with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins.
In fact, the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an
immelman he accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time,
but confidence building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops
and such, get some spin training in something first. Not to harp on it,
but a split-s can be a dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The
potential for overspeed is great. Again, they're no big thing with the
proper training.
Steve Zicree
planes are fun
Steve and others:
I must chime in here. I agree with what you have said up to the last
sentence and even that one may be ok for TC'd aircraft. Maybe. Not all
aircraft are created equal and spin behavior may vary considerably.
Recovery requirements may vary also. One would need to know why a
particular aircraft is placarded against spins to be sure whether the
placard is there because the mfr. chose not to test for spin recovery or
because under some circumstances recovery is impossible. With untested
aircraft one cannot be sure until and testing is done. If you have seen
the film NASA made of their attempts to make a Grumman Tiger spin proof
you would gain new respect for the process. They popped the antispin
parachutes many times. The late Al Meyers lost the prototype Meyers 145
to an unrecoverable spin and in that case the argument that releasing
the controls would effect recovery failed. His parachute landing
resulted in a broken foot. Dick Johnson found himself in an
unrecoverable spin in a Standard Austria SH sailplane and he had tested
more aircraft than I have flown. A bent wing Corsair as demonstrated at
Cleveland has quite weird behavior and a McDonnell Banshee even wierder.
But they will recover.
In our aircraft a prestall buffet is not universally found in spin
entry. An anecdote: I owned a Standard Austria SH-1 sailplane
(different airfoil from the SH). It had a 15 meter span and the wings
were fairly heavy, about 175 pounds each. The fuselage was a bit
shorter than other contemporary gliders and the the V-tail was all
flying, that is, it had no fixed stabilizer surfaces. The ailerons were
comparatively small and there was very little differential and so
adverse yaw was prominent. Consequently steep thermalling turns resulted
in crossed controls. One day when working a difficult thermal it rolled
over and I, thinking no big deal, had completed 3/4 of a turn before
acknowledging to myself what was happening. I reverted to the spin
recovery technique learned in Aeronca Champs, put in opposite rudder to
no effect, took it out and put it in again still to no effect, took it
out and put it in again with forward stick. Rotation quickly reversed,
was easily controlled and recovery was completed. Dick Johnson's
experience was going through my mind and due to my altitude I was about
to exit the aircraft had I not recovered when I did. There was no
prestall buffet. A couple of weeks later I took a Citabria to altitude
and experimented a bit. I found that a spin is easily entered with no
prestall buffet. That was news to me. Later I had a PIK-20B sailplane
and did spin entries and up to 1 turn right and left. That one went
right over on its back in the first part of the spin.
During the test phase in my RV-4 I explored the flight envelope as best
I could. Starting with simple power off stalls I progressed to stalls
with power, and out of shallow to medium turns, and from there to stalls
out of 2g turns (60 degrees) both coordinated and with top rudder and
with bottom rudder (1 ball out) and found recovery to be uncomplicated.
Then came spin entries where rotation was not allowed beyond 1/4 turn
and thence to 1 turn spins. All done right and left with c.g. fairly
forward. I chose not to let a spin progress beyond 1 turn and did not
test to aft c.g limits. For that I would want anti-spin parachutes and
some additional courage. One RV-4 may have been lost due to an aft c.g.
spin. I fly accordingly. None of the above qualifies me to speak to the
characteristics of any of the other RVs out there. I offer these
comments as cautionary and not personal and hope they may be of benefit
to some.
Gordon Comfort
N363GC
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Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343@bresnan.net>
Rick,
It is no big deal to spin a plane if you have had spin training.
I've had unusual attitude and aerobatic training in a Decathalon.
I can spin a plane and recover to a heading chosen by the instructor.
What these others on the list are saying is that it is not wise to spin
an RV-6/6A. Van himself doesn't like the spin characteristics of the
RV-6/6A.
This should tell us something. Its not that the RV-6 is incapable of be
spun and recovered, it's just that it will be a lot different in the
rate of spin than most pilots are used to.
Heed the advise of Van and the other pilots that are on the list.
If you don't wish to do this, then at least climb to a safe altitude
above the ground, say 8000 feet. Sounds high doesn't it. Just remember
you can't use altitude you don't have.
John Danielson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Lundin
Subject: RE: RV-List: planes are fun
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Lundin <rlundin46@yahoo.com>
I did a spin in a C-150 by accident when I was
learning to do power on stalls. It's a good thing my
instructor knew what to do. He explained the recovery
and we never did another spin.
Years later while getting tail drager time in a Champ
the instructor asked if I'd had spin training, and
would I like to. No and yes respectively. So we did
lots of spins over the next couple days along with
many T&Gs. Spins are no big deal once you've done a
few. I'm glad I took time with a qualified instructor
to learn them.
Rick
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Inadvertent Spin |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Did I understand you correctly? Are you saying that you UNINTENTIONALLY spun
an RV6 while flying near the edge of the envelope?!?! Why, I was told by the
wise and omniscient Elders of RV-dom that no good pilot could ever do that.
And you say that spin training in another aircraft would have helped? How
can this be?
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
Subject: RV-List: Inadvertent Spin
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
>
> I too have spun an RV-6A. It was unintentional. I was conducting some
test
> flying for friend's plane, and was doing a departure stall. It broke very
> sharply, and violently. It took about 2000 feet and 3 turns before I
> realized what I was in. I had no formal spin training before then. I was
> shown one or two, but that was it.
>
> Now that I am a CFI, I have had the formal spin training. And I can tell
> you this, I will never spin an RV again. It was just too tight and fast.
> But most of all, the biggest problem I saw was my lack of recognition.
Had
> I not been doing my testing at 5000' agl, I don't think I would be here to
> talk about it. Spin training should be done at the private pilot level,
> and on BFR's in my opinion, but we know the lawyers would never have it
that
> way!
>
> Paul Besing
> RV-6A Sold
> RV-10 Soon
> http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
> Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
> http://www.kitlog.com
>
>
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Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
First off, I wasn't talking about Sam being afraid of spins. Second, I said
aerobatics without spin training in SOMETHING was dumb and I think most of
the aerobatic community would agree. Third, I haven't contributed to the
list because I've been on a hiatus from building while devoting most of my
spare time and money to aerobatics. And lastly, this list is not here solely
as a forum for you to be praised as the inventor of everything RV. Learn
some manners.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
>
> The questions should really be what is your problem? You do a lot of
> talking for someone who really
> does not have a clue what they are talking about or the experience in
> said arplane to back it up. I really
> doubt Sam is "terrified" of spinning." I have done many loops and
> split-s' and other aerobatics without
> having done spins in my RV. I do not feel that doing so is as you say
> "dumb as it gets" maybe there is a
> reason you have been a lurker for years and have not opened your mouth
> before?
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
> steve zicree wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> >Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post I was responding to a bit
> >more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about doing split-s's and
loops
> >in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?! Does this really
make
> >sense to you? Can a botched loop turn into a spin? A split-s? Did I say
that
> >the plane spins well? Did I say he should rush out and see? I simply
> >suggested that a spin in a 6 was probably not the end of the world and
that
> >aerobatics should not be done without adequate spin recovery training in
> >SOMETHING. I've made it clear that I've no experience in RV's, but I know
> >enough to know that aerobatics without solid spin recovery capability is
> >about as dumb as it gets. As for the canopy thing, I'll give in to your
> >all-knowing-ness: I hereby declare that it is impossible for a tip-up
canopy
> >to be jetissoned in any flight regime by anyone or anything, and that
nobody
> >will ever find a way to do so. I further promise to cease any
investigation
> >into said problem until I have accumulated sufficient RV flight time as
> >determined by the elders of the RV list or 606 hrs, whichever comes
first.
> >
> >Steve Zicree
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> >To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
> >>
> >>steve zicree wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >>>
> >>>Mark,
> >>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the
hair-raising
> >>>deal you think it is.
> >>>
> >>>
> >><snip>
> >>
> >>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
> >>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
> >>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
> >>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
> >>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
> >>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
> >>
> >>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
> >>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
> >>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
> >>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
> >>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
> >>spins would expect.
> >>
> >>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
> >>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
> >>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
> >>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
> >>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
> >>
> >>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do
> >>
> >>
>
>
> _-=====================================================================
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_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Streit <wooody04@bellsouth.net>
Alright boys, lets get back to building RV's
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>First off, I wasn't talking about Sam being afraid of spins. Second, I said
>aerobatics without spin training in SOMETHING was dumb and I think most of
>the aerobatic community would agree. Third, I haven't contributed to the
>list because I've been on a hiatus from building while devoting most of my
>spare time and money to aerobatics. And lastly, this list is not here solely
>as a forum for you to be praised as the inventor of everything RV. Learn
>some manners.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Jerry Springer" <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>>
>>
>>The questions should really be what is your problem? You do a lot of
>>talking for someone who really
>>does not have a clue what they are talking about or the experience in
>>said arplane to back it up. I really
>>doubt Sam is "terrified" of spinning." I have done many loops and
>>split-s' and other aerobatics without
>>having done spins in my RV. I do not feel that doing so is as you say
>>"dumb as it gets" maybe there is a
>>reason you have been a lurker for years and have not opened your mouth
>>before?
>>
>>Jerry
>>do not archive
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post I was responding to a bit
>>>more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about doing split-s's and
>>>
>>>
>loops
>
>
>>>in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?! Does this really
>>>
>>>
>make
>
>
>>>sense to you? Can a botched loop turn into a spin? A split-s? Did I say
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>the plane spins well? Did I say he should rush out and see? I simply
>>>suggested that a spin in a 6 was probably not the end of the world and
>>>
>>>
>that
>
>
>>>aerobatics should not be done without adequate spin recovery training in
>>>SOMETHING. I've made it clear that I've no experience in RV's, but I know
>>>enough to know that aerobatics without solid spin recovery capability is
>>>about as dumb as it gets. As for the canopy thing, I'll give in to your
>>>all-knowing-ness: I hereby declare that it is impossible for a tip-up
>>>
>>>
>canopy
>
>
>>>to be jetissoned in any flight regime by anyone or anything, and that
>>>
>>>
>nobody
>
>
>>>will ever find a way to do so. I further promise to cease any
>>>
>>>
>investigation
>
>
>>>into said problem until I have accumulated sufficient RV flight time as
>>>determined by the elders of the RV list or 606 hrs, whichever comes
>>>
>>>
>first.
>
>
>>>Steve Zicree
>>>
>>>----- Original Message -----
>>>From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>>Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>>>
>>>>steve zicree wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>>>
>>>>>Mark,
>>>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the
>>>>>
>>>>>
>hair-raising
>
>
>>>>>deal you think it is.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>>>
>>>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>>>spins would expect.
>>>>
>>>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>>>
>>>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>_-=====================================================================
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>>_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
>>_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
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>>_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
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>>
>>
>>
>
>
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>
>
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Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Excellent, thoughtful observations Gordon. Actually my last sentence refered
to the split-s not being any big deal. I agree whole-heartedly with you
about spin characteristics varying widely from type to type and would never
suggest that anyone but a trained test pilot with some anti-spin device
venture into this unknown area. I was simply suggesting that the 6's have
been spun by many and that with the proper training it can be done safely.
After all I've read on here, I went back and read all I could find from Van,
and others at Van's, and do not find where they say that spins should never
be attempted. I do read where they say the rate of spin is about 180
degrees/second (pretty fast) and that recovery at this rate is quite delayed
(a turn and a half, I think), but I also read that they say it can be done.
At any rate, I was only trying to suggest that aerobatics without spin
confidence is ill-advised. Actually, can anybody name a good aerobatics
plane that isn't approved for spins? Thanks again for your input and let me
know when you need a back seater for a sailplane ride. I've been up once and
it was unbelievable.
Cheers,
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon or Marge Comfort" <gcomfo@tc3net.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Gordon or Marge Comfort"
<gcomfo@tc3net.com>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of steve zicree
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses
> start with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins.
> In fact, the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an
> immelman he accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time,
> but confidence building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops
> and such, get some spin training in something first. Not to harp on it,
> but a split-s can be a dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The
> potential for overspeed is great. Again, they're no big thing with the
> proper training.
>
> Steve Zicree
> planes are fun
>
> Steve and others:
>
> I must chime in here. I agree with what you have said up to the last
> sentence and even that one may be ok for TC'd aircraft. Maybe. Not all
> aircraft are created equal and spin behavior may vary considerably.
> Recovery requirements may vary also. One would need to know why a
> particular aircraft is placarded against spins to be sure whether the
> placard is there because the mfr. chose not to test for spin recovery or
> because under some circumstances recovery is impossible. With untested
> aircraft one cannot be sure until and testing is done. If you have seen
> the film NASA made of their attempts to make a Grumman Tiger spin proof
> you would gain new respect for the process. They popped the antispin
> parachutes many times. The late Al Meyers lost the prototype Meyers 145
> to an unrecoverable spin and in that case the argument that releasing
> the controls would effect recovery failed. His parachute landing
> resulted in a broken foot. Dick Johnson found himself in an
> unrecoverable spin in a Standard Austria SH sailplane and he had tested
> more aircraft than I have flown. A bent wing Corsair as demonstrated at
> Cleveland has quite weird behavior and a McDonnell Banshee even wierder.
> But they will recover.
>
> In our aircraft a prestall buffet is not universally found in spin
> entry. An anecdote: I owned a Standard Austria SH-1 sailplane
> (different airfoil from the SH). It had a 15 meter span and the wings
> were fairly heavy, about 175 pounds each. The fuselage was a bit
> shorter than other contemporary gliders and the the V-tail was all
> flying, that is, it had no fixed stabilizer surfaces. The ailerons were
> comparatively small and there was very little differential and so
> adverse yaw was prominent. Consequently steep thermalling turns resulted
> in crossed controls. One day when working a difficult thermal it rolled
> over and I, thinking no big deal, had completed 3/4 of a turn before
> acknowledging to myself what was happening. I reverted to the spin
> recovery technique learned in Aeronca Champs, put in opposite rudder to
> no effect, took it out and put it in again still to no effect, took it
> out and put it in again with forward stick. Rotation quickly reversed,
> was easily controlled and recovery was completed. Dick Johnson's
> experience was going through my mind and due to my altitude I was about
> to exit the aircraft had I not recovered when I did. There was no
> prestall buffet. A couple of weeks later I took a Citabria to altitude
> and experimented a bit. I found that a spin is easily entered with no
> prestall buffet. That was news to me. Later I had a PIK-20B sailplane
> and did spin entries and up to 1 turn right and left. That one went
> right over on its back in the first part of the spin.
>
> During the test phase in my RV-4 I explored the flight envelope as best
> I could. Starting with simple power off stalls I progressed to stalls
> with power, and out of shallow to medium turns, and from there to stalls
> out of 2g turns (60 degrees) both coordinated and with top rudder and
> with bottom rudder (1 ball out) and found recovery to be uncomplicated.
> Then came spin entries where rotation was not allowed beyond 1/4 turn
> and thence to 1 turn spins. All done right and left with c.g. fairly
> forward. I chose not to let a spin progress beyond 1 turn and did not
> test to aft c.g limits. For that I would want anti-spin parachutes and
> some additional courage. One RV-4 may have been lost due to an aft c.g.
> spin. I fly accordingly. None of the above qualifies me to speak to the
> characteristics of any of the other RVs out there. I offer these
> comments as cautionary and not personal and hope they may be of benefit
> to some.
>
> Gordon Comfort
> N363GC
>
>
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Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
--> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com
Dear Canopy Gurus,
This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the fore/aft
center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
canopy plexiglass.
Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no paint
condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft bow.
Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until everything
sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
11/16?
Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
plexiglass terrifies me.)
Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000 cut
between the windshield and the canopy.
John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
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Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
Yesterday's posts provided some new insight into this subject
including the contributions by Scott and Sam below, including
Van's commentary about RV-6 stall/spin characteristics. With
some four years now in my RV-6A, including many stalls and spins,
I'd make these observations.
The short, slick wing of the -6 gives us the performance we enjoy
but it can also provide very exciting results, especially from high
angle-of-attack stalls that can suddenly provide you a view
through the windshield rarely seen by most pilots. 40+ years ago,
when I took my training, my instructor taught stall avoidance along
with stall/spin recovery.
Because a couple dozen of our EAA Chapter 168 members already
had RV's flying, I decided that before I explored these un-natural
attitudes in my RV, I would get some professional training. 2 years
ago I flew out to California to spend a couple days with the "Dean" of
Emergency Maneuver Training, Mr. Rich Stowell. Rich was the
FAA's first Master CFI-Aerobatic and is the author of numerous books
and papers on the subject.
Rich and I spent 4 hours spinning my RV-6A and, when we broke for lunch,
he remarked that I had now logged more spins than were required by the
FAA to be a professional instructor and commercial pilot. The rest of that
day and all of the next day were all in a Super Decathelon getting some
aerobatic training. While you may not be interested in aerobatics, I'd
strongly recommend spending a few hours with an instructor knowledgeable
in recovery from unusual attitudes training -- to become constantly aware of
all the ways your bird might bite you -- leaving or arriving at an airport.
Links to more information on this are below, including a link to how you
can get a copy of Rich's text on Emergency Mauever Training from a List
Supporter, Builder's Bookstore.
Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW
http://www.richstowell.com/index.htm
http://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm
http://www.buildersbooks.com/emergency_manuever_training.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>
> I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
> Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
> this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
> and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
> felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
> the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
> to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
> after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
> his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
> avoid a third."
>
> Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
> RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
> drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
> anyway.
>
> I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
> it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
> passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>
> Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
> as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
> your airplane.
>
> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Mark,
>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>deal you think it is.
>>>
>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>
>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>spins would expect.
>>
>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>
>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>>
SNIP******************************
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_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: planes are fun Redux (I hope!) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
(Please delete now if tired of this- I suppose I started it and would like to
see it put to bed- Mark)
In a message dated 11/14/2004 1:38:49 AM Central Standard Time,
szicree@adelphia.net writes:
Oh, and one more thing. When you excerpt my post, at least do me the
courtesy of not intentionally deleting context in order to strengthen your
position.
>>>>>
....ahem..... Let me be as calm as possible here- In my subsequent message
(below) where did I say or suggest that spinning an RV is "the hair-raising deal
you think it is." (your words) You also said in response to Sam Buchannans
knowlegeable and sincere input: "Holy crap, what is your problem? Read the post
I was responding to a bit more carefully. You've got a pilot talking about
doing split-s's and loops in an aircraft that they're terrified of spinning!?!"
Gee Steve, where do I give you the impression I'm "terrified of spinning!?!" ?
(again your words- see my post below)
Fact is, I actually ENJOYED the spins I have done and learned a great deal
from them- the ORIGINAL discussion was about stall training and my ORIGINAL
comment was that I thought it was a good idea to experience a spin, if for no
other reason than to KNOW it can happen and not freak out if it accidentally does,
with the point being to reduce the number of pilots decorating departure and
approach areas with fire, smoke and emergency vehicle lights.
I'll be the first to declare I'm no hotshot, talented pilot. But I do pay
attention to those who appear to be and have heard a whole bunch of experienced
folks in the RV community say that spins in an RV are not a particularly good
idea, just as many have chimed in recently. I've also never heard anyone say
other aerobatic manuevers (such as loops & split Ss) are a particularly bad
idea once you have the requisite training, which you obviously know by now can't
be conducted in a tip-up RV like mine because the instructor and I would have
to legally wear chutes that we could never use. (well, they might actually
lessen the impact with earth, provided we hit dirty-side down)
You don't have to tell me advanced aerobatic manuevers can be dangerous- My
cousin, an Air Force F-16 driver, killed himself in a Texas airshow doing a
Split-S several years ago. But you better believe before I try it in my RV I'll
have seen one many times in an aircraft that's seen it's share of barf sponged
out of it....
Sorry to belabor this (I just HATE when that happens!) but I've said my piece
and now I'll shut up and go do some aileron rolls to calm down- (yes,
airplanes ARE fun!)
From the PossumWorks in TN
Mark Phillips, and let's toss in another do not archive since my fingers as
all warmed up 8-)
>>>Subsequent post after asked what my experince spinning an RV were like:
Never done it & in no hurry to find out. Van advises against it, at least
more than 3 (I think) although I've seen some pretty darn cool videos of some
dude in a -4 going round&round at least about a dozen times or more, IIRC.
Personally, spinning my -6A is way down on my list of things to do, way below
loops and split-Ss- especially when close to terra firma- I just don't understand
why anyone would intentionally do this? Don't give me that "accident" crap-
you ARE flying the airplane, aren't you? To me it's just like the drug thing-
JUST SAY NO (unless under expert supervision by a consenting adult!)
C'mon, folks- ya got yer throttle in one hand and yer stick in the other- why
toss your precious RV into the ground? To get a Darwin award maybe?
Mark - do not archive
>>>Original unedited post regarding Stall Training:
I asked my CFI during intitial training about spins- we climbed to 6K and he
demonstrated. First time was a HUGE eye opener, never having been
dirty-side-up before, but we did several more with me on the controls and the big
difference between the first and the rest convinced me that if I had never seen
a
spin, the first time I got into one accidentally I'd be too busy crapping my
drawers to react quickly, regardless of how many times I'd been coached on the
correct recovery or how many times I had practiced stalls. I'd highly recommend
doing spins with a well-qualified instructor during initial training or at
least get it in aero asap. One of those "most valuable moments" I've ever had
in
an airplane!
_-=====================================================================
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_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!)
_-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the
_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this
_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
_-_-= List Contribution Web Site
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_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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_-= - The RV-List Email Forum -
_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions
_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other
_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums.
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross S" <rv7maker@hotmail.com>
John,
Go for the 11/16 or larger if it works better. Make it bigger for and aft
with corse sandpaper and then progressively go finer and finer until it is
very smooth. The approximately 1" wide aluminum strip that runs for and aft
over the center tube will cover your hole.
Good Luck,
Ross Schlotthauer
RV-7 Finishing
>From: JTAnon@aol.com
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 12:54:28 EST
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com
>
>Dear Canopy Gurus,
>
>This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the
>fore/aft
>center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
>canopy plexiglass.
>
>Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no
>paint
>condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
>won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
>
>A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
>nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft
>bow.
>
>Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until
>everything
>sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
>11/16?
>
>Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
>for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
>plexiglass terrifies me.)
>
>Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000
>cut
>between the windshield and the canopy.
>
>John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
>
>
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad Werner" <klwerner@comcast.net>
I'll vote for a RACBOD (Rocket Assisted Canopy Blow Off Device).
And for the slight chance for it to malfunction in this highly anticipated emergency,
you then point to a FAA sanctioned placard that reads something like this:
"In case of a RACBOD-Malfunction to counter another emergency please bend
you head between your knees and kiss your A$$ Good By, assuming the malfunctioning
explosive charge did not blow off your pretty face first."
Any truly concerned soul could modify their RV into a fully open-cockpit flying
machine, just like the old biplanes from the early days of aviation? Nothing
beats having the wind in your face at 200mph all the time, ...versus being potentially
stuck under a canopy in an emergency, if it were to ever happen!
And I agree with Linn:
If you are able to open the canopy latch and use your body's weight times G-Forces,
something will give way to your bodies departure.
BTW: Tip-Ups seem to lift open 4-6 inches in flight if left unsecured. Do you think
1000lbs+ (per PAX) pushing you through this gap will open it even further?
I am pretty darn certain!
AND PLEASE > DO NOT ARCHIVE < this mostly nonsense of mine.
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathleen@rv7.us
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2004 5:40 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: Kathleen@rv7.us
Well, I'm really glad I brought this subject up! For those of you who
require apologies, I apologize. I think I have the answer. I'm working on
a forward-facing trap door under the seats. Pull a lever and the seats and
occupants just drop out the bottom. It couldn't be simpler, right?
Wait! Wait! Please! Let's not start discussing the merits of this!
I take it back!
:-) :-))
Kathleen Evans
www.rv7.us
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of linn walters
To: rv-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
steve zicree wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
>Suppose the plane is broken and tumbling. Will it open then? Deep in a
>stall? Many on the list have said the the parachute is worthless since you
>CAN'T get out.
>
Let me run this by y'all (since we're having so much fun with it): When
it comes time to exit, canopy or not, you're going to be so shot full of
adrenalin that NOTHING will stand in your way of getting out .... unless
you're injured ..... and the adrenalin may just make injuries go away
.... at least for the time being. Unhitch your safety belt and jam the
stick forward (yeah, I know maybe that's the problem) and your 180 Lb
(OK, I'm being nice is now ) is going to be over 1000 lbs. Think the
canopy is going to stay there???
Linn ..... knows about adrenalin
do not archive
> Well I say there are situations where you MIGHT be able to
>get out and that's what matters. We had an airplane out here in Long Beach,
>CA a couple of years ago lose elevator control. The pilots were both
>skydivers, and so they opted to go for a swim rather than try to fly using
>trim control. Now, with little or no elevator control, an aircraft might
>start porpoising and might just help toss that canopy off. I know it's a
>stretch, but freaky things happen. I think the prevailing theory regarding
>Von Alexander's accident is that something pushed the stick forward and
>caused a negative g situation. I believe the canopy of his 8 was already
>off.
>
>Steve Zicree
>
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>snippage<
> > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
> > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> > wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
> > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> > spun an airplane. Probably never will.
Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I mean it's
the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying well before it does.
The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane bucks and
shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does wind up and I
really don't think it's properly stalled through the manuever. It's too
nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin with. A spin
can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So, after I
verified that the airplane does recover using conventional means, I haven't
done any since. The plane really seems to protest the maneuver...lots of
skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never got comfy with it.
Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered with opposite
rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in CAP10B
prior to.
Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane, they're
a hoot.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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Message 30
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|
| Subject: | [ Keith T Uhls ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Keith T Uhls <keithuhls@juno.com>
Lists: RV-List,RV6-List,RV7-List,RV9-List
Subject: RV-7 with GRT EFIS and Dynon
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/keithuhls@juno.com.11.14.2004/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
_-=====================================================================
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_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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Message 31
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|
| Subject: | Locking the Slider Canopy |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie <charleyb@earthlink.net>
My -6A slider has a relatively positive over-center latch. However, I
have considered installing a safety catch or some device to prevent the
canopy from opening if the latch were inadvertently opened. To you old
head -6 Slider pilots, have you ever had your slider canopy
inadvertently unlatch? Or had a passenger inadvertently unlatch it. Has
anybody gone to the trouble to install a safety catch or device to
prevent such an occurrence?
Charlie Brame
RB-6A N11CB
San Antonio
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Message 32
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| Subject: | OT - Interesting approach to Baghdad |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Here's a maneuver that I didn't learn during my flight
training:
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album15&id=100_3175
This is a seat pocket card from an airline that flies into Baghdad. Here
is the text taken from the image:
For those of you who have not
traveled with us before, you
need to be aware that, for your
security and safety, and not for
your comfort, we do a spiral
descent into Baghdad.
This is carried out to avoid any
risk from ant-aircraft missiles or
small arms fire, and is 100%
effective in achieving this objec-
tive.
We start the spiral from 15000
feet overhead the airfield and
the aircraft is banked at an
average angle of bank of 45
degrees. The rate of descent
will be about 4000 feet per
minute and there may be some
discomfort to the ears as the
cabin pressurization controller
has difficulty in keeping up with
the rate of descent.
For first time travelers to
Baghdad, the procedure can
seem quite alarming, but it is a
totally safe and an entirely
normal procedure.
Enjoy your flight with Air Serv.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
John,
Here's what I did: first try chamfering the bottom of the 5/8" hole to nest
with the weld bead on the canopy frame. (You don't want the bead to ride on
the edge of the hole for sure.) If necessary, go for the next size hole
with the unibit (or elongate the hole with a file) but it probably will be
just fine once you chamfer. Go with a round file and sandpaper to smooth
and polish out the chamfer. The trim piece that goes on top of the canopy
will dress out the hole for you so don't be too concerned if the hole is not
exactly centered now. The slight oversize, if necessary, is not a problem.
Also, I wouldn't grind the bead off. Welders will tell you not to do this.
I think a crack could develop. I would be interested in hearing what others
have to say about this practice.
Pat Hatch
RV-4
RV-6
RV-7
Vero Beach, FL
----- Original Message -----
From: <JTAnon@aol.com>
Subject: RV-List: Canopy Latch tube RV7 Slider
> --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com
>
> Dear Canopy Gurus,
>
> This is an RV7 Slider. Concerning he little part of the tube on the
> fore/aft
> center bow of the canopy frame that sticks up through the 5/8 hole in the
> canopy plexiglass.
>
> Despite grinding the weld flat and buffing everything up to a smooth no
> paint
> condition, a 5/8 hole through the plexi is still a VERY tight fit. Plexi
> won't quite go all the way down and lay flat around the tube
>
> A test 11/16 hole in some scrap aluminum lets the aluminum piece lay down
> nice and flat around the tube and on the center line of the fore and aft
> bow.
>
> Question 1: Should I keep going at the tube on the weldment until
> everything
> sits flat around the tube, or just be done with it and drill the plexi to
> 11/16?
>
> Question 2: The plans say you can elongate the hole fore and aft to allow
> for minor adjustments. How does one elongate the hole? (As you can tell
> plexiglass terrifies me.)
>
> Hoping for a quick answer as the shop is up to 82 degrees for the $1,000
> cut
> between the windshield and the canopy.
>
> John (pray for a crack free, clean cut) McDonnell
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Actually I did read Carnegie's book years ago and I don't remeber there
> being a chapter on kissing the a$$ of "experts" just to feed their
overblown
> egos.
============================================
READING a good book is easy.
Comprehending and APPLYING the principles are quite another.
Perhaps more dual is in order before you fatally crash and burn more
relationships among resident "experts".
FWIW.
Although my vision is no longer 20/15 uncorrected....
until you came along I saw no arsses here at all,
much less any that were in need of kissing.
do not archive
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Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
Man, is this thread entertaining or what?!
My cable TV is still out from Hurricane Ivan, but there's nothing on it that
can match the action I've been following here. I may just go ahead and tell
'em to forget fixin' it!
Can't beat this show...and except for the yearly contribution, it's free!
Lurking eagerly,
Randy Compton
Gulf Breeze, FL
former RV-3 owner
Do Not Archive
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| Subject: | Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial post. If
I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize directly to him, but
for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so controversial.
Mark,
I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses start
with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In fact,
the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but confidence
building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get some
spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can be a
dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
Steve Zicree
I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of open gasoline
around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, and was told
by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably wasn't smart enough
to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow! One poster suggested
that I have "lurked" on the list for years because I'm not worthy of adding
to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because most of what I saw were
ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in after all.
Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a tip-up was so
great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to sit down and
shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6 to
a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that, in HIS OPINION
the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward and backward relative
to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge and the resulting torque
created by the drag force.
I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced than I,
but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make someone an expert
on every issue surrounding design, construction, and flight. A good example
would be the Wright's eventual refutation of Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data.
As I mentioned before, I am an applied mathematician. This work requires an
open, questioning mindset, with tacit acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere.
I am relatively new to the world of aviation, but from what I've seen here I
would have to assume that the reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and
that daring to question the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps
naive or idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
Steve Zicree
disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
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DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws;
s=s1024; d=yahoo.com;
b=3jfK2I5FwO6y8FB+UjvuFmrb51wy+7oIRXABZiNR8ZD6rIxpfL8g8wZV9NPmJ1FmxbRzFsRDimkKKlWPoW4G6+WsQShu7eoKLOQi/aT3nJfE2Sgr+abZJoZY/0iZImkwSIZY+slqZFOxyN2NQEfc7j/NPDp/CJvxKhTdspL3lzI=
;
| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich@yahoo.com>
I took some "Alumiweld" (Wicks has it), filled the end of the tube, then ground
it down to the shape I wanted. Took about 10 minutes! Make sure you "clean" the
inside bore with a drill bit first, SS brush won't reach in far enough. Ground
down with no evidence of cracking, so I think I got decent penetration. No
experience with use yet....
Dave
>Listers,
>
> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end of the
canopy
> latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept their
looks
> and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was to replace
> the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to 1/4-28.
> I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with studs
that slip
> right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball joints
> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I now
want
> to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the ends
that
> penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out in the
plans.
> I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully with
> a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some sort
of stud
> on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can use.
Thanks
> for the assist.
>
> Steve Zicree
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>... Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6
>to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that,
>in HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted
>upward and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is
>the hinge and the resulting torque created by the drag force.
I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of the 8 - where would
he guess are the main forces?
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
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Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North <wnorth@sdccd.cc.ca.us>
>
>
> Don't know about other planes, but RVs will stall nicely going straight
> up,
> done it many times when pulling too much in a slow loop. They'll do it
> going
> straight down as well.
>
This may be a response to something I said about airplanes not stalling
going straight up. As soon as I hit send I realized I didn't specify enough
conditions. What is straight up, fuselage perpendicular or wing chord
perpendicular or what? I also didn't specify on a straight up line, not
going past straight up while pulling G's. I also said the airplane will
fall, which is not necessarily true if it has enough thrust, at least not
for quite a while. I was just thinking of the common sense case of pulling
one of our RV's to an approximate vertical line and holding it there. It
will lose speed until it falls at an airspeed around zero, but will not
stall as long as the line is held close to vertical without pulling G's.
I have spun and snap rolled my RV quite a few times in the test phase, as I
was planning to do aerobatics in it. I read the cautions about spins in
RV-6's which, as I recall, mentioned that after about 3 revolutions the spin
will get very fast and may take positive control inputs to recover. I did
not go past three turns and did not try any hands free recoveries. Within
those limits I did not find the spin particularly startling but I was ready
for it to be fast.
Some may not think this was prudent. Others may not think it prudent to fly
intentional aerobatics in airplanes they are unwilling to spin in. I have
not ever unintentionally spun the airplane but did get upside down at near
zero airspeed once, after a botched hammerhead. I probably wasn't far from
getting into an inverted spin right then. If you don't think you could ever
spin from a messed up manuever you had better be pretty good. I'm not near
that good.
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
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| Subject: | Oil where I didn't expect it |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
I've had a beautiful Bart LaLonde IO360-B2B engine sitting in a crate
for much longer than I care to admit. Now it is finally in danger of
getting hung - in another month or so. It's dangling from an engine
hoist. I thought I'd bolt the AFP air controller on today (temporarily)
so I could roll the engine into a close approximation of its final
resting place and get an idea of where the control cables should
penetrate the firewall, where the fuel hoses go, etc.. Much to my
surprise when I removed the plate Bart had bolted on to the intake, and
pulled out the plastic plug, about a pint of oil splooshed out onto the
floor.
Since he had a big plug in there, I'm assuming the oil was put there
intentionally, but why is there oil in my air intake? Further more, how
do I clean it out before I try bolting the air controller on? I don't
want oil dribbling into my air controller.
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
firewall.
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
I'll run it by him Monday if you promise not to call him names : )
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mickey Coggins" <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
>
>
> >... Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of the 6
> >to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that,
> >in HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted
> >upward and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is
> >the hinge and the resulting torque created by the drag force.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing his opinion of the 8 - where would
> he guess are the main forces?
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
> http://www.rv8.ch/
> #82007 QB Wings/Fuselage
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Canopy latch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
On HRII N561FS we tapped the far ends of the canopy rods (not sure but I
think 1/4X20) screwed in a bolt and ground down the end to a rounded point.
Used 3/4" long grade 8 bolts, w/ little or no shank, just because we had two
of them. Used JBWeld lightly on the threads and when it was screwed in it
created a "donut" at the end of the rod (1/8" or so). Kept the donut and
used it as part of the ground down area. This made the point a little longer
than just the thickness of the bolt head. The idea was the "harden" the tip
and protect from wear on the exposed rod aluminum end. Looks good & works
great. KABONG 8*)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Durakovich" <ddurakovich@yahoo.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Canopy latch
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich@yahoo.com>
>
> I took some "Alumiweld" (Wicks has it), filled the end of the tube, then
> ground it down to the shape I wanted. Took about 10 minutes! Make sure you
> "clean" the inside bore with a drill bit first, SS brush won't reach in
> far enough. Ground down with no evidence of cracking, so I think I got
> decent penetration. No experience with use yet....
>> I asked a while back about the hand formed clevis at the handle end
>> of the canopy
>> latch rods on the 4. Well, after making them I just couldn't accept
>> their looks
>> and the function was less than perfect too. What I came up with was
>> to replace
>> the .058 wall tubing with .083, which allowed me to tap them to
>> 1/4-28.
>> I then attached some real nice little balljoints at the ends with
>> studs that slip
>> right into the handle. I know it's a very small detail, but the ball
>> joints
>> pivot nicely and it looks much better than smashing the ends flat. I
>> now want
>> to finish the job by putting some sort of bullet shaped tip on the
>> ends that
>> penetrate the bulkheads to replace the half-tapered tips called out
>> in the plans.
>> I'm picturing something like the point on a target arrow, hopefully
>> with
>> a 1/4-28 thread on it. It could also be JB Welded in if it has some
>> sort of stud
>> on it. I'm hoping that someone will have a good idea of what I can
>> use. Thanks
>> for the assist.
>>
>> Steve Zicree
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Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Inadvertent Spin |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
I spun out of Immelman turns a couple of times in the Decathlon when I did
my aerobatic training. When I took that course, I was a little afraid of
spins going into it -- I had never spun. My instructor refused to show me
ANY aerobatics until I had shown mastery of spin recovery at the Sportsman
level.
On my RV-7, I had no qualms about your basic run of the mill rolls, but
before I would split-S or loop or Immelman, I wanted to spin the plane to
see how it behaved. I did not want to find myself in the "surprise, you
fell out of the top of the Immelman or loop and now you're spinning, and
you've never spun this plane before" situation. I will grant you that
spinning out of maneuvers is a sign of a MISTAKE somewhere during the
maneuver...but I'm no perfect pilot, especially with aerobatics. I dunno if
I ever did a loop that looked like a perfect circle. I'll keep my day job.
I guess my point is that I *have* accidentally spun planes while doing less
than perfect aerobatics. The less than perfect part is fixable, but I
*still* would want to have a comfort zone with spins before doing any acro
that has any possibility of leading to a spin.
I for one am very glad to know how my RV-7 behaves in the first couple of
turns of spins.
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Inadvertent Spin
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> Did I understand you correctly? Are you saying that you UNINTENTIONALLY
spun
> an RV6 while flying near the edge of the envelope?!?! Why, I was told by
the
> wise and omniscient Elders of RV-dom that no good pilot could ever do
that.
> And you say that spin training in another aircraft would have helped? How
> can this be?
>
> do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Inadvertent Spin
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" <azpilot@extremezone.com>
> >
> > I too have spun an RV-6A. It was unintentional. I was conducting some
> test
> > flying for friend's plane, and was doing a departure stall. It broke
very
> > sharply, and violently. It took about 2000 feet and 3 turns before I
> > realized what I was in. I had no formal spin training before then. I
was
> > shown one or two, but that was it.
> >
> > Now that I am a CFI, I have had the formal spin training. And I can
tell
> > you this, I will never spin an RV again. It was just too tight and
fast.
> > But most of all, the biggest problem I saw was my lack of recognition.
> Had
> > I not been doing my testing at 5000' agl, I don't think I would be here
to
> > talk about it. Spin training should be done at the private pilot
level,
> > and on BFR's in my opinion, but we know the lawyers would never have it
> that
> > way!
> >
> > Paul Besing
> > RV-6A Sold
> > RV-10 Soon
> > http://www.lacodeworks.com/besing
> > Kitlog Pro Builder's Log Software
> > http://www.kitlog.com
> >
> >
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Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Stall & Spin Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com
posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
OK, now that you (the collective you) are enjoying spins and they're 'no big
deal', put some aileron into the spin once it fully develops
....... and then move the stick forward ....... and then try and recover
on a heading.
Am I the only one that is getting old? On my CFI checkride I had to recover
from a spin on a heading! (over 24,000 flying hours ago)
Elbie
www.riteangle.com
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Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
> > > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model
has
> > > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
> > > wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
> > > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
> > > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with
a
> > > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
> > > spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>
> Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I mean
it's
> the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying well before it
does.
> The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane bucks
and
> shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does wind up and I
> really don't think it's properly stalled through the manuever. It's too
> nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin with. A
spin
> can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So, after I
> verified that the airplane does recover using conventional means, I
haven't
> done any since. The plane really seems to protest the maneuver...lots of
> skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never got comfy with it.
> Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered with opposite
> rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in CAP10B
> prior to.
>
> Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane,
they're
> a hoot.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
I would echo Brian's comments on the RV-8 exactly -- matches my experience
and resulting opinion precisely.
Randy Lervold
RV-3 N223RL
RV-8 N558RL
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Message 46
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| Subject: | Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
If you find yourself flying with the canopy unlatched, try entering a spin,
then between about 1 and 1.5 turns, re-latch the canopy. Works every time:)
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 552 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
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_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the
_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com!
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_-_-= Thank you for your generous support!
_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
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Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Talk about multi-tasking!
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins and canopies
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson"
<alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
>
> If you find yourself flying with the canopy unlatched, try entering a
spin,
> then between about 1 and 1.5 turns, re-latch the canopy. Works every
time:)
>
> Alex Peterson
> RV6-A 552 hours
> Maple Grove, MN
>
> http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
>
>
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Message 48
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| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Any known difference with or without wheel/leg fairings? I thought that was
a player with the whole tail shake thing....
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Randy Lervold [mailto:randy@romeolima.com]
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 4:29 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>
> > > > I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each
> > > > model
> has
> > > > it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with
> > > > them. I wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with
> it's spin charactaristics.
> > > > I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've
> researched
> > > > enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4.
> Not safe
> > > > with
> a
> > > > passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them
> because I've
> > > > NEVER spun an airplane. Probably never will.
> >
> > Looks like the -8 is the best spinning RV out there. By "best", I
> > mean
> it's
> > the one that let's you know that it's gonna stop flying
> well before it
> does.
> > The tail shake was discussed ad nauseum years ago. My airplane
> > bucks
> and
> > shudders like the dickens before it quits. Yes, it does
> wind up and I
> > really don't think it's properly stalled through the
> manuever. It's
> > too nose-low, probably because it's nose heavy while solo to begin
> > with. A
> spin
> > can be recovered. A nose low spiral can tear your wings off. So,
> > after I verified that the airplane does recover using conventional
> > means, I
> haven't
> > done any since. The plane really seems to protest the
> maneuver...lots
> > of skin banging going on back in the tailcone. Just never
> got comfy with it.
> > Made it through two turns in both directions. Recovered
> with opposite
> > rudder and neutral stick. Had five hours of acro/spin training in
> > CAP10B prior to.
> >
> > Still advocate spin training for everybody. In the right airplane,
> they're
> > a hoot.
> >
> > Brian Denk
> > RV8 N94BD
> > RV10 '51
>
>
> I would echo Brian's comments on the RV-8 exactly -- matches
> my experience and resulting opinion precisely.
>
> Randy Lervold
> RV-3 N223RL
> RV-8 N558RL
>
>
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Message 49
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
Randy Compton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
>
>Man, is this thread entertaining or what?!
>
>
I'll second that!
Chris W
Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want & give the
gifts they want this holiday season
http://thewishzone.com
do not archive
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Message 50
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--> RV-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" <dschaefer1@kc.rr.com>
I was at TruTrak's HQ on Friday afternoon.
They are getting ready to release a full sized solid-state attitude gyro
that works just like their current turn & bank but with pitch, heading
information and an inclinometer!! No more junk bearings to wear out! The
unit will work for about an hour on a 9 volt backup battery and will
eventually have an autopilot built in! Absolutely incredible engineering
from a great group of folks to work with.
Look for it by Sun 'n Fun.
Regards,
David Schaefer
RV-6A N142DS
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Message 51
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rv8list@yahoogroups.com,
rv9-list@matronics.com.1.70.SUSPICIOUS_RECIPS.Similar.addresses.in.recipient.list
--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
I just noticed on the Land Of Enchantment website that they are moving
the fly-in to a new location at 5T6. While I have been to the museum
there, which is nice, it looks to be in the middle of nowhere, far from
lodging and no rental cars. Tell me it aint so. My wife and I really
enjoy Las Cruces, I for one vote for not moving the fly-in. Someone in
the know need to fill us in on the reasons for the move.
Gary
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Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
I happen to have quite a few hours doing hard aerobatics. For me, it's
the most fun thing you can do with your clothes on. I do my aerobatics
in a Pitts ..... it's one of many aircraft specifically designed for
them. I'm also a fan of spin training. Like any other type of
training, it may not make you a better pilot, but it may save your bacon
sometime down the road. I agree that aerobatics aren't for everyone and
would never try and talk someone into exploring flight outside the
conventional envelope. I have demonstrated (not taught .... I'm not an
instructor) various aerobatic maneuvers to those that want, and flown
passengers without any unusual attitudes. Safety, for me, is #1, and my
passengers comfort is #2. So, I think that if you're going to spin (or
any other wild maneuver) your favorite toy, at least get some experience
with someone that knows (and likes) what ever it is you want to do.
Please don't jump into your favorite hotrod and get wild. Some botched
maneuvers can really eat up a lot of altitude (and wrap up that airspeed
needle) and if you're slow in reacting to fix the mess, well I'll see
the NTSB report sooner or later. I doubt that I'll ever do aerobatics
(as much as I enjoy it) outside a spin in my -10 ..... that's not what
it was designed for, and not part of my mission profile in it. I'll
probably spin it so I'll be prepared to handle it if I get in trouble.
The soapbox is available.
Linn ..... please be safe out there.
do not archive
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Message 53
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Jerry Springer wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@earthlink.net>
>
>Sam Buchanan wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>
>>steve zicree wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>
>>>Mark,
>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>deal you think it is.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>><snip>
>>
>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>
>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>spins would expect.
>>
>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>
>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>You took the words right off of my keyboard Sam, :-) When I made the
>first flight on my RV-6 I called
>Van and told him about it and in the conversation he said "don't spin it
>if you don't have to." I have never
>had a reason to spin my -6 so haven't. Before someone thinks I am not
>qualified to spin an aircraft I have
>done hundreds of spins with each and every one of my students, each one
>knows how to recover from a
>spin before I solo them. I am a firm believer in spin/stall recognition.
>The best way to learn spin recognition
>and spin recovery is to do them. I know many people have and do spin
>their -6 but I just haven't done more
>than maybe 1/4 to 1/2 turn. I have done a lot of aerobatics in my -6,
>and not all perfect, but still have not got
>into an unintentional spin in the almost 16 year of flying it.
>
>Jerry Springer
>do not archive
>
Well said. In my previous rant I didn't cover refusing knowledgeable
advice. Don't do it. You never want to find out just why someone
doesn't recommend doing something.
Linn
>
>
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| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>Any known difference with or without wheel/leg fairings? I thought that
>was
>a player with the whole tail shake thing....
>
>-
>Larry Bowen
My airplane does the same thing with or without gear leg fairings and wheel
pants, though I don't think this has proven to be the case with all the
RV8's out there. I've looked back at the tail while approaching the stall
and uh, well, it's "interesting viewing" to say the least. You'd have to be
asleep at the wheel to miss the audible cues. I've seen an unpainted RV8
with wing strakes attached just over the wing leading edge at the root. Was
also discussed in an RVator a while back. Has something to do with cleaning
up the dirty air near the wingroot/gear leg intersection at the fuselage at
high angle of attack.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: LOE 5 Move
>Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 16:28:36 -0700
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
>
>I just noticed on the Land Of Enchantment website that they are moving
>the fly-in to a new location at 5T6. While I have been to the museum
>there, which is nice, it looks to be in the middle of nowhere, far from
>lodging and no rental cars. Tell me it aint so. My wife and I really
>enjoy Las Cruces, I for one vote for not moving the fly-in. Someone in
>the know need to fill us in on the reasons for the move.
>
>
>Gary
I'm with you, Gary. It's a great museum. One of the unknown jewels of
classic aircraft collections. But, it's not what I'd consider to be prime
Fly-in real estate. It is rather remote and I don't recall there being much
in the way of FBO services. Could be wrong. Maybe it's grown recently.
I dunno. Cruces was great and the museum was just a short hop away for
anyone interested in seeing it. Could be other motives behind the move that
we're not aware of.
Brian Denk
RV8 N94BD
RV10 '51
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik <zilik@direcpc.com>
>
> I just noticed on the Land Of Enchantment website that they are moving
> the fly-in to a new location at 5T6. While I have been to the museum
> there, which is nice, it looks to be in the middle of nowhere, far from
> lodging and no rental cars. Tell me it aint so. My wife and I really
> enjoy Las Cruces, I for one vote for not moving the fly-in. Someone in
> the know need to fill us in on the reasons for the move.
>
I don't know much about this but did make some enquiries and was assured
that there will be plenty of rental cars. The cars had to be brought in
anyway. I enjoyed Las Cruces also and one could drive up there for lodging
although it seems that El Paso is quite a bit closer. El Paso has lots of
lodging and restaurants and some may be interested in visiting Juarez, which
is just across the river.
Guess it would take someone like Red Marron to really explain the reasons
for the move.
Do not archive
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
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Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: Stall & Spin Training |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
EMAproducts@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com
>
>posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
>OK, now that you (the collective you) are enjoying spins and they're 'no big
>deal', put some aileron into the spin once it fully develops
>....... and then move the stick forward ....... and then try and recover
>on a heading.
>Am I the only one that is getting old? On my CFI checkride I had to recover
>from a spin on a heading! (over 24,000 flying hours ago)
>Elbie
>www.riteangle.com
>
No, you're not getting old. The point I tried to make was that in that
configuration (spinning with forward stick) the spin rate is really
fast, and hitting a recovery heading is terribly hard. More timing than
skill, I think. In a normal spin (rudder and up elevator) I do much
better recovering on a specific heading. But then I do this just for
fun, Congrats on those hours. That's a whole lot of 'cheating death
one more time'!!! I probably have only 10% of that and have cheated
death more than once!!
Linn
do not archive
>
>
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>
>
>
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Message 58
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Geez,
I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week, and I
nearly missed all the fun!!!!
This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
wheel-landing rampages.
Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there seems
to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers. I
will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25, PBY,
DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
endorsement.
The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro. Let
me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so clean.
A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and not
break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if you
are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to loops
and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads, long
enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left rudder
and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you stick
in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up, or
upside down.
If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap on
the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over into a
spin.
The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not really
happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I have a
C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it hooks
up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly spin
it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it coming
apart.
Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more lives
than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely to
stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better pilot,
it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
Decathalon and explore the envelope.
If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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Message 59
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
Yep. It's kind of making me wax nostalgic... bringing me back to the
primer wars of yore.
Randy Compton wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Compton" <thecomptons@bellsouth.net>
>
>Man, is this thread entertaining or what?!
>
>My cable TV is still out from Hurricane Ivan, but there's nothing on it that
>can match the action I've been following here. I may just go ahead and tell
>'em to forget fixin' it!
>
>Can't beat this show...and except for the yearly contribution, it's free!
>
>Lurking eagerly,
>
>Randy Compton
>Gulf Breeze, FL
>former RV-3 owner
>
>Do Not Archive
>
>
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>
>
>
>
--
Scott VanArtsdalen
Van Arts Consulting Services
3848 McHenry Ave
Suite #155-184
Modesto, CA 95356
209-986-4647
Ps 34:4,6
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Message 60
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| Subject: | Re: planes are fun |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> >He convinced me it was a very bad idea to play test pilot of this sort in
a
> >homebuilt if I valued myself, my family and MOST OF ALL... my precious,
one
> >of a kind aircraft, unless I could do it the way the pros did.
> >...
>
> Sounds like good advice. Did he tell you how the pros do it?
>
>
> --
> Mickey Coggins
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1. Aircraft spin chute
2. Personal parachute
3. Means of escape
4. A willingness to sacrifice a unique experimental aircraft.
I find it impossible to justify the risk of losing my experimental to spins
that the designer specifically cautions against. For a giggles and grins
spin mission, there are far more suitable aircraft choices.
Bob -
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Message 61
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| Subject: | RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343@bresnan.net>
Well said Doug.
John Danielson
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Geez,
I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week,
and I
nearly missed all the fun!!!!
This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
wheel-landing rampages.
Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there
seems
to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers.
I
will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25,
PBY,
DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
endorsement.
The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro.
Let
me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so
clean.
A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and
not
break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if
you
are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to
loops
and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads,
long
enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left
rudder
and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you
stick
in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up,
or
upside down.
If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap
on
the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over
into a
spin.
The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not
really
happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I
have a
C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it
hooks
up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly
spin
it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it
coming
apart.
Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
lives
than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely
to
stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better
pilot,
it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
Decathalon and explore the envelope.
If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
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Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced
than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make
someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and
flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of
Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied
mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit
acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world of
aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the
reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question
the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or
idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
===============================
You are no Wright.
You are no Lilienthal.
If they behaved in an anti-social fashion....
I suspect they would earn an 'anti-social' reaction, too.
Do not archive
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Message 63
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| Subject: | Trutrak in an RV-3B |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
Need some help on installing a Trutrak roll servo in an RV-3B. The folks at Trutrak
said the RV-3B should be just like the RV-7 or RV-9 at the aileron bellcrank.
The problem is the two installations are different according to Trutraks
docs. I saw a reference in the RV-3 list about the installation being the same
as the RV-9. I don't have access to the drawings for the RV-7 or 9. The aileron
bellcrank for the 3B is specified as part number Wd-421-L(R). Does that match
up with the 7 or 9? It also appears the 7 and 9 differ in how the bellcrank
is attached, at least according to Trutrak's drawings. On the RV-3B and RV-7
the pushrod connection to the stick is on the bottom of the bellcrank. On the
9 it's on the top of the bellcrank.
Thanks.
Ken
DO NOT ARCHIVE
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Message 64
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--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
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Message 65
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak in an RV-3B |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
http://www.rvproject.com/trutrak.html has some installation drawings and
comments from two people who installed a Digitrak on their RV-6, one at the
wingtip with a pushrod, and one under the pilot's seat.
I recently installed the Digitrak in my RV-7 wing (trivial!). Here are a
few photos of the in-wing servo installation:
http://www.rvproject.com/20041011.html
Hope this helps,
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
Subject: RV-List: Trutrak in an RV-3B
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
>
> Need some help on installing a Trutrak roll servo in an RV-3B. The folks
at Trutrak said the RV-3B should be just like the RV-7 or RV-9 at the
aileron bellcrank. The problem is the two installations are different
according to Trutraks docs. I saw a reference in the RV-3 list about the
installation being the same as the RV-9. I don't have access to the drawings
for the RV-7 or 9. The aileron bellcrank for the 3B is specified as part
number Wd-421-L(R). Does that match up with the 7 or 9? It also appears the
7 and 9 differ in how the bellcrank is attached, at least according to
Trutrak's drawings. On the RV-3B and RV-7 the pushrod connection to the
stick is on the bottom of the bellcrank. On the 9 it's on the top of the
bellcrank.
>
> Thanks.
> Ken
>
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
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Message 66
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Aren't you the condescending guy who advised me to go "read my book" because
I was "on the steep part of the learning curve" simply because I said that
Stick and Rudder was very informative? You know as well as I do that primary
flight training often stresses the required tasks of navigation, reg.
compliance, communication, etc. at the expense of actual flight control
skills. You also know that this is a very good book on the subject of
AOA/stall-avoidance that many newer pilots may not be aware of. So why make
fun of me for recommending it? I was trying to HELP by humbly deferring to a
resource much more informed than myself. What were you trying to do? All I
did was call you out for YOUR antisocial behavior. The extent of my
antisocial behavior was limited to disagreeing with you.
Steve Zicree
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" <rv3a@comcast.net>
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced
> than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make
> someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and
> flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of
> Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied
> mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit
> acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world
of
> aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the
> reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question
> the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or
> idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
> ===============================
>
> You are no Wright.
> You are no Lilienthal.
>
> If they behaved in an anti-social fashion....
> I suspect they would earn an 'anti-social' reaction, too.
>
>
> Do not archive
>
>
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Message 67
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| Subject: | Re: Edge Gromment? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
It's usually called "flexible Grommet" or "Flexible Grommeting". I found
in the Digikey catalog. See page 85 of the Digikey catalog at
www.digikey.com
Bobby Hester wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
>
> Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
> about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
> get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
> plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
>
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
Firewall
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Message 68
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| Subject: | Chapter 486 RV Forum? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino@echoes.net>
Does anybody know anyone involved in the RV Forum put on by Chapter 486? I am
trying to claim my "People's Choice Award". It seems they are not too good on
giving out the awards and they are very hard to contact. This is the same way
it was handled two years ago. I guess they don't feel that the awards they
give are important. I don't know if I will go back any more. If anyone knows
anybody up there, maybe they can put a bug in their ear...it's been two months.
James Cimino
RV-8 SN 80039
100+ Hours
570-842-4057
http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/
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Message 69
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
It's officially called Grommet strip, but in the airline world its mainly
referred to as "caterpillar tracks". I have a bunch of it, and will have it
for sale on my website hopefully by tomorrow (or sometime this week when I
have a spare minute). The stuff from ACS is high $$ (but is fine quality),
and really more than is necessary for the job. The plain nylon stuff is
cheap, easy to use, and I have it in 2 thicknesses. Check for it on my
website this week.
Cheers,
Stein Bruch
http://www.steinair.com
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bobby Hester
Subject: RV-List: Edge Gromment?
--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
--
Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY
Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/
RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-)
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Message 70
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| Subject: | Re: Edge Gromment? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "thomas a. sargent" <sarg314@earthlink.net>
An update on the previous post. The Digikey web page is a little
confusing on page numbers. I found 2 very diffrerent pages identified as
page 85. Two different catalogs perhaps? Anyway, if you search for
flexible grommet, you'll find it.
> Bobby Hester wrote:
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester <bhester@hopkinsville.net>
>>
>>Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything
>>about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one
>>get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The
>>plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires.
>>
>
>
--
Tom Sargent, RV-6A
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Message 71
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" <jackoford@theofficenet.com>
Steve,
I have been lurking along the sidelines of this forum for a while.
Specifically, trying to make up my mind whether to build an RV or a Cozy
MKIV (for which I have plans). I am not a low time pilot, I've had spin
training. None of that is germain to this conversation.
One could not hope to find a friendlier, more patient, more helpful group of
people on the internet than on Marc Zeitlin's Unofficial Cozy forum.
Incredible sense of community. Everyone is treated with respect.Very few
personal attacks.
The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their
impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY.
I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something
about airplanes.
Good luck!
Jack Ford
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Subject: RV-List: Spins and canopies
> --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>
> For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial
post. If I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize directly
to him, but for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so
controversial.
>
> Mark,
> I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses start
> with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In fact,
> the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
> accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but confidence
> building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get
some
> spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can be
a
> dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
> great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
> Steve Zicree
>
> I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of
open gasoline around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, and
was told by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably wasn't
smart enough to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow!
One poster suggested that I have "lurked" on the list for years because I'm
not worthy of adding to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because most
of what I saw were ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in after
all.
>
> Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a tip-up
was so great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to sit
down and shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of
the 6 to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that, in
HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward
and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge and
the resulting torque created by the drag force.
>
> I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced
than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make
someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and
flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of
Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied
mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit
acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world of
aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the
reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question
the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or
idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
>
> Steve Zicree
>
> disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
I especially like these words, copied from Doug R.'s message below;
> .... everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
> recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
> lives than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are
> likely
> to stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, ....
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343@bresnan.net>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" <Jdaniel343@bresnan.net>
>
> Well said Doug.
>
> John Danielson
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
> Geez,
>
> I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week,
> and I
> nearly missed all the fun!!!!
>
> This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs
> wheel-landing rampages.
>
> Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been
> adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there
> seems
> to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers.
> I
> will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25,
> PBY,
> DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28
> with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered"
> endorsement.
>
> The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro.
> Let
> me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the
> stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so
> clean.
> A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and
> not
> break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing
> between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever"
>
> Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of
> airplane. You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if
> you
> are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to
> loops
> and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads,
> long
> enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left
> rudder
> and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect
> pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you
> stick
> in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up,
> or
> upside down.
>
> If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap
> on
> the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over
> into a
> spin.
>
> The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine,
> pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not
> really
> happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. I
> have a
> C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it
> hooks
> up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. I do not regularly
> spin
> it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For
> kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the
> spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles
> shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it
> coming
> apart.
>
> Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall
> recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more
> lives
> than spin recovery. Except for acro, most places where you are likely
> to
> stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you
> don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is
> optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better
> pilot,
> it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is
> seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a
> Decathalon and explore the envelope.
>
> If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back...
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
>
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Message 73
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
Jack,
I've put 1300 hours into the constructon of my RV4 over the last 5 years and
have enjoyed the heck out of every minute of it. I'm a builder, always have
been. Hotrods, motorcycles, fine furniture, stringed instruments, and
probably a few things I can't recall. I just love being alone in my shop and
when I'm without a project I'm hard to live with. The construction of my
plane has been an entirely solo affair, with only occasional assistance from
the folks at Vans. I've always like it best that way -- different strokes
for different folks I guess. It was only during the last month that I
finally decided to participate in the discussions on the RV-list. Having
never interacted with the RV community, I just assumed that they would be a
bunch of friendly tinkerers (as I consider myself). Don't get me wrong, they
may in-large be just that, but my experience here has changed my feelings
about the whole endeavor. I've honestly given serious thought in the last
two days to selling my unfinished project. I'm gonna stay out of the shop
for a few days, put a few hundred on the bicycle instead, and see how I
feel. Building something as big and pricey as this over such a long time
gives a person plenty of opportunities to doubt, and past experience has
taught me to ride it out. Incidently, I have attended one small RV fly-in
over the summer and there were definitely two camps: guys who were
absolutely terrrific and loved the sharing, and guys who were there to hold
court . My girlfriend couldn't get over it, said it wasn't at all what she
expected.
As for the glass vs. metal thing, I think you're like a guy on a Yamaha at a
biker bar. I personally would love to build a composite if they could design
something that looks like a "normal" airplane. I've just not been able to
warm up to the look of the pushers. Have you seen Cory Bird's plane,
Symmetry?? Un-freakin-believable. I saw a guy at the fly in who had
completely filled ALL the rivets, seams, ripples, etc on his RV with body
filler. I mean the plane looked like a glass plane, even up close. I'm sure
I'll catch heck for saying it, but that filler will eventually pop off in
places. Too much differential expansion and flexing between the metal and
filler. I've worked with that stuff since I was a kid and you can only get
away with so much. If a perfectly blocked, dead-straight airframe is what
you want, composite is the only way to get and keep it.
On the other hand, the support and service at Van's is outstanding. Even my
undrilled kit has been awesome and it really does turn out a great airplane.
Go for a ride in each I say before you decide. And get ready for the itchies
if you choose the glass.
Steve Zicree
do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Ford" <jackoford@theofficenet.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" <jackoford@theofficenet.com>
>
> Steve,
> I have been lurking along the sidelines of this forum for a while.
> Specifically, trying to make up my mind whether to build an RV or a Cozy
> MKIV (for which I have plans). I am not a low time pilot, I've had spin
> training. None of that is germain to this conversation.
> One could not hope to find a friendlier, more patient, more helpful group
of
> people on the internet than on Marc Zeitlin's Unofficial Cozy forum.
> Incredible sense of community. Everyone is treated with respect.Very few
> personal attacks.
> The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their
> impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY.
> I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something
> about airplanes.
> Good luck!
> Jack Ford
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Spins and canopies
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
> >
> > For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial
> post. If I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize
directly
> to him, but for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so
> controversial.
> >
> > Mark,
> > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
> > deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses
start
> > with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In
fact,
> > the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he
> > accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but
confidence
> > building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get
> some
> > spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can
be
> a
> > dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is
> > great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training.
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of
> open gasoline around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing,
and
> was told by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably
wasn't
> smart enough to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow!
> One poster suggested that I have "lurked" on the list for years because
I'm
> not worthy of adding to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because
most
> of what I saw were ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in
after
> all.
> >
> > Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a
tip-up
> was so great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to
sit
> down and shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of
> the 6 to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that,
in
> HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward
> and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge
and
> the resulting torque created by the drag force.
> >
> > I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced
> than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make
> someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and
> flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of
> Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied
> mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit
> acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world
of
> aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the
> reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question
> the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or
> idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me.
> >
> > Steve Zicree
> >
> > disappointed quite Very dissapointing from
> >
> >
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Message 74
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| Subject: | Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Exact analysis of an aircraft's spin characteristics is a complex subject
due to the transient, changing nature of the maneuver from entry through an
initial stage to (sometimes) a steady state situation. Only the really thick
aerodynamics books bother tackling the topic.
The basic theory is that there are inertia forces that work to speed up and
flatten the spin working against aerodynamic forces (aft fuselage shape,
fin, rudder, stabilizer, elevator, etc.) that resist the spin and pitch the
nose downward when recovery is initiated. The planform and airfoil
characteristics of the wing regulate the pro-spin force on the aircraft (the
wing still generates lift and drag even when completely stalled during a
spin). Too much pro-spin inertia compared to the anti-spin aerodynamic
effects makes for an exciting ride.
"Aerodynamics, Aeronautics, and Flight Mechanics" by B.W. McCormick is a
place to start for those so interested.
Jim Oke
Wpg., MB
RV-3, RV-6A
----- Original Message -----
From: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath"
> <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
>
> Yesterday's posts provided some new insight into this subject
> including the contributions by Scott and Sam below, including
> Van's commentary about RV-6 stall/spin characteristics. With
> some four years now in my RV-6A, including many stalls and spins,
> I'd make these observations.
>
> The short, slick wing of the -6 gives us the performance we enjoy
> but it can also provide very exciting results, especially from high
> angle-of-attack stalls that can suddenly provide you a view
> through the windshield rarely seen by most pilots. 40+ years ago,
> when I took my training, my instructor taught stall avoidance along
> with stall/spin recovery.
>
> Because a couple dozen of our EAA Chapter 168 members already
> had RV's flying, I decided that before I explored these un-natural
> attitudes in my RV, I would get some professional training. 2 years
> ago I flew out to California to spend a couple days with the "Dean" of
> Emergency Maneuver Training, Mr. Rich Stowell. Rich was the
> FAA's first Master CFI-Aerobatic and is the author of numerous books
> and papers on the subject.
>
> Rich and I spent 4 hours spinning my RV-6A and, when we broke for lunch,
> he remarked that I had now logged more spins than were required by the
> FAA to be a professional instructor and commercial pilot. The rest of that
> day and all of the next day were all in a Super Decathelon getting some
> aerobatic training. While you may not be interested in aerobatics, I'd
> strongly recommend spending a few hours with an instructor knowledgeable
> in recovery from unusual attitudes training -- to become constantly aware
> of
> all the ways your bird might bite you -- leaving or arriving at an
> airport.
>
> Links to more information on this are below, including a link to how you
> can get a copy of Rich's text on Emergency Mauever Training from a List
> Supporter, Builder's Bookstore.
>
> Howard Walrath RV-6A N55HW
>
> http://www.richstowell.com/index.htm
>
> http://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm
>
> http://www.buildersbooks.com/emergency_manuever_training.htm
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" <svanarts@yahoo.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
>>
>> I can sure believe this. When I did my transition training with Mike
>> Seager in the RV-6 the few stalls we did were pretty disconcerting for
>> this Airknocker pilot. I was accustomed to holding my Champ in a stall
>> and just walking it down with rudders. The first stall I did in the 6
>> felt like the world was just dropping out from under me. Then I lowered
>> the nose and tried to bring it back up again like I would in the Champ
>> to start flying again but there was an even more abrupt stall right
>> after the first. Mike just sat there with his hands folded neatly in
>> his lap and calmly said, "OK, now that's a secondary stall, let's try to
>> avoid a third."
>>
>> Anyway this had me really rattled for doing the first stalls in my
>> RV-4. But the 4 stalls very differently from the 6. Not the dramatic
>> drop you get in the 6. Well... I considered it a pretty dramatic drop
>> anyway.
>>
>> I guess the point is, don't generalize these airplanes. Each model has
>> it's own peculiar handling charactaristics. Be familiar with them. I
>> wouldn't spin a 6 just to be familiar with it's spin charactaristics.
>> I'd research it and figure out how to avoid them. I've researched
>> enough to know that spins are safely doable in an RV-4. Not safe with a
>> passenger in the back. Not safe with me doing them because I've NEVER
>> spun an airplane. Probably never will.
>>
>> Remember, we build 'em, we test 'em, we fly 'em. Do all three as safely
>> as you can within your personal capabilities, and the capabilities of
>> your airplane.
>>
>> Sam Buchanan wrote:
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>>>
>>>steve zicree wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" <szicree@adelphia.net>
>>>>
>>>>Mark,
>>>>I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising
>>>>deal you think it is.
>>>>
>>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>I read of a competent pilot who after spinning the RV-3 and RV-4, was
>>>spooked enough by the spin characteristics of the RV-6 that he decided
>>>to let a professional test pilot complete the spin testing. To his
>>>credit, the pilot's ego didn't interfere with his common sense and
>>>survival instinct and prevent him from turning over the spin testing to
>>>another pilot.......even though he was the designer of the RV-6.
>>>
>>>Yep, Van Hisself has written that the spin characteristics of the RV-6
>>>are, if memory serves me he used the word, "disconcerting" for a pilot
>>>not highly schooled in spins in short-winged airplanes. Apparently the
>>>plane winds up very quickly and the rotation is far quicker and the
>>>attitude of the plane much more nose-down than a pilot trained in C152
>>>spins would expect.
>>>
>>>I suspect it would enhance a poster's credibility if he/she had actual
>>>RV flight time before making pronouncements on spin characteristics of
>>>planes that the poster has never flown. RV flight experience would
>>>probably also make a difference in how statements concerning jettisoning
>>>RV canopies are received as well. :-)
>>>
>>>Sam Buchanan (never spun my RV-6 in 606 hrs, and hope I never do!)
>>>
> SNIP******************************
>
>
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Message 75
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| Subject: | Re: Spins and canopies |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
I recall a story about a bunch bones that the "old experts" put together.
It was on display for years for all to see. BUT one of the "young guns"
proved that
the "experts" had the wrong head attached. OPP'S
EXPERT: Ex- as in usta was, has been. -pert: A squirt under pressure.
Therefore: Expert is a usta was under pressure.
They did & They did.
> You are no Wright.
> If they behaved in an anti-social fashion....
> I suspect they would earn an 'anti-social' reaction, too.
rv3a@comcast.net & szicree@adelphia.net
KABONG 8*)
Keep pounding rivets & asking questions. It's worth every minute spent.
Do Not Archive.
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Message 76
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| Subject: | Re: Trutrak in an RV-3B |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Ken,
The RV-3B wing bellcrank should be very similar to the RV-7 which is the
same wing as the RV-8. The RV-6 bellcrank is different. IIRC the -3B
bellcrank is the same part and mounted in the same manner, but the wing is
thinner and that may throw some things off. Still, should be a way to mount
there no problem.
I'll have pics posted in another month or so of my -3B pitch servo
installation.
Randy Lervold
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Trutrak in an RV-3B
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
> http://www.rvproject.com/trutrak.html has some installation drawings and
> comments from two people who installed a Digitrak on their RV-6, one at
the
> wingtip with a pushrod, and one under the pilot's seat.
>
> I recently installed the Digitrak in my RV-7 wing (trivial!). Here are a
> few photos of the in-wing servo installation:
> http://www.rvproject.com/20041011.html
>
> Hope this helps,
> )_( Dan
> RV-7 N714D
> http://www.rvproject.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Trutrak in an RV-3B
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" <ken@truckstop.com>
> >
> > Need some help on installing a Trutrak roll servo in an RV-3B. The folks
> at Trutrak said the RV-3B should be just like the RV-7 or RV-9 at the
> aileron bellcrank. The problem is the two installations are different
> according to Trutraks docs. I saw a reference in the RV-3 list about the
> installation being the same as the RV-9. I don't have access to the
drawings
> for the RV-7 or 9. The aileron bellcrank for the 3B is specified as part
> number Wd-421-L(R). Does that match up with the 7 or 9? It also appears
the
> 7 and 9 differ in how the bellcrank is attached, at least according to
> Trutrak's drawings. On the RV-3B and RV-7 the pushrod connection to the
> stick is on the bottom of the bellcrank. On the 9 it's on the top of the
> bellcrank.
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Ken
> >
> > DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >
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Message 77
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| Subject: | The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US
>From: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question
>However, the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison
the canopy and successfully jump! Until >that happens, all we can do is speculate
on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying tip-up RV.
I've got an idea Sam. A while back Van retired one of the very early RV-6s they
had used as a demo ride for years. "Ol Blue" as she was affectionately called,
is still tucked away in his personal hangar. Maybe we could get him to sacrifice
her for a real world experiment on this canopy jettison thing!? You'd
have to find someone willing to put thier tush on the line to do the test (one
time only). Hmmm??? Naaaa..... too risky! Stilllllllll........ :-)
On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today with AN3
bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque specs for
the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque spec for a
bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard Aircraft Handbook"
but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. Any thoughts on
this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't turn anymore, since
they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out but, do I need to worry
about torquing them? Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
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