---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/15/04: 75 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:34 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (Bob 1) 2. 02:49 AM - List Fund Raiser - New Gift Addition! (Matt Dralle) 3. 04:46 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jerry Springer) 4. 05:14 AM - Re: Re: Edge Gromment? (Bobby Hester) 5. 06:00 AM - Re: RV Stall/Spin Issues (linn walters) 6. 06:54 AM - Spin Recovery (Valovich, Paul) 7. 07:53 AM - Re: Oil where I didn't expect it (DAVID REEL) 8. 07:57 AM - Large Aluminum Tubing - source? (sjhdcl@kingston.net) 9. 08:07 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 10. 08:10 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (rv6tc) 11. 08:17 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jack Ford) 12. 08:52 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 13. 08:56 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree) 14. 09:02 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Doug Rozendaal) 15. 09:03 AM - Re: planes are fun, -8 spin (RV_8 Pilot) 16. 09:08 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree) 17. 09:08 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (steve zicree) 18. 09:17 AM - Aileron trim springs (Ralph E. Capen) 19. 09:32 AM - Fw: RV8-List: Dynon remote compasses (Christopher Stone) 20. 09:41 AM - Re: Large Aluminum Tubing - source? (GMC) 21. 09:41 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (David Fenstermacher) 22. 09:42 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Larry Bowen) 23. 09:45 AM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (Larry Bowen) 24. 09:47 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (rv6tc) 25. 09:49 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (rv6tc) 26. 10:09 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (linn walters) 27. 10:19 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (rv6tc) 28. 10:23 AM - RV8 Plans Error (BRUCE GRAY) 29. 10:25 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 30. 10:29 AM - Re: planes are fun, -8 spin (linn walters) 31. 10:41 AM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jack Ford) 32. 10:49 AM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (Randy Lervold) 33. 10:49 AM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (Randy Lervold) 34. 11:40 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Doug Rozendaal) 35. 11:44 AM - Re: planes are fun, -8 spin (JVanLaak@aol.com) 36. 12:14 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Dean) 37. 12:40 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 38. 12:50 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Tom Gummo) 39. 12:55 PM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (RV_8 Pilot) 40. 01:01 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 41. 01:26 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Doug Rozendaal) 42. 01:30 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (linn walters) 43. 01:31 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (steve zicree) 44. 02:07 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Christopher Stone) 45. 02:43 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (steve zicree) 46. 03:08 PM - Bell crank (Wheeler North) 47. 03:21 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Bob 1) 48. 03:23 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Bill Dube) 49. 03:42 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (UFOBUCK@aol.com) 50. 03:45 PM - Re: planes are fun, -8 spin (Brian Denk) 51. 04:03 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Bob 1) 52. 04:11 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 53. 04:14 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (steve zicree) 54. 04:31 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (JOHN STARN) 55. 04:32 PM - Re: 8A looks like What? (Dr. Kevin Leathers) 56. 04:38 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 57. 04:41 PM - Orndorff videos available (Australia) (Bob Barrow) 58. 04:48 PM - Re: 8A looks like What? (David Burton) 59. 05:06 PM - Re: Bell crank (Daniel Clark) 60. 05:19 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Jim Oke) 61. 05:41 PM - Re: Re: Edge Gromment? (Stein Bruch) 62. 05:54 PM - Re: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question - DUMB QUESTION (Bill Schlatterer) 63. 06:01 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Alex Peterson) 64. 06:17 PM - Re: Bell crank/Trutrak (Ken Simmons) 65. 06:27 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Terry Watson) 66. 06:59 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 67. 06:59 PM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (Larry Bowen) 68. 07:02 PM - Re: Spins, canopies & extingushers (Larry Bowen) 69. 07:23 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jerry Springer) 70. 08:27 PM - RV7 spin recovery (Bob Barrow) 71. 08:49 PM - Re: Spins and canopies (Jack Ford) 72. 09:33 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (rv6tc) 73. 09:38 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (rv6tc) 74. 11:20 PM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (steve zicree) 75. 11:52 PM - And now for something completely different (steve zicree) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:34:33 AM PST US From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > Aren't you the condescending guy who advised me to go "read my book" because > I was "on the steep part of the learning curve" simply because I said that > Stick and Rudder was very informative? You know as well as I do that primary > flight training often stresses the required tasks of navigation, reg. > compliance, communication, etc. at the expense of actual flight control > skills. You also know that this is a very good book on the subject of > AOA/stall-avoidance that many newer pilots may not be aware of. So why make > fun of me for recommending it? I was trying to HELP by humbly deferring to a > resource much more informed than myself. What were you trying to do? All I > did was call you out for YOUR antisocial behavior. The extent of my > antisocial behavior was limited to disagreeing with you. > > Steve Zicree =================================== IMO.... You have one helluva complex, see things that are not there, and wouldn't know "humble" if it bit you in the arse. I apologized once to help calm you down, but no more. I advocated that you take a deep breath, relax... and enjoy your copy of "Stick and Rudder" whilst you were informing another here of 'how the cow ate the cabbage', Zicree style. That advice, sir.... Is STILL recommended. Put another way - Take a chill pill, dude. It not just how you say things, but the way you say them. How do I know? You said it best. I'm an "expert". Bob - Do not archive _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:04 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: List Fund Raiser - New Gift Addition! --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises (www.kitlog.com) has generously contributed free registered copies of his great Windows kit logging software called Kitlog Pro to support this year's List Fund Raiser! Beginning on November 13, anyone making a List Contribution of $50 or more will qualify to receive the Windows web site download distribution of Kitlog Pro along with an official registration number via email on December 5th. The offer will continue through the end of the Fund Raiser. I want to thank Andy Gold (www.buildersbooks.com) and Paul Besing for their generous contributions in support of the Matronics Email Lists this year! Won't you take a minute and support these Lists as well? It is exclusively your contributions that enable the continue operation and upgrade of these Lists. The SSL Secure web site for making your Contribution can be found here: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:59 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer steve zicree wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >Jack, > > It was only during the last month that I >finally decided to participate in the discussions on the RV-list. Having >never interacted with the RV community, I just assumed that they would be a >bunch of friendly tinkerers (as I consider myself). Don't get me wrong, they >may in-large be just that, but my experience here has changed my feelings >about the whole endeavor. > You will not find a friendlier bunch of aviators at any flyin, I have attended fly ins every year for the past 40 years and still have not found a group that is more willing to help and give advice and encouragement to builders than the RV bunch. All I can say Steve is you get out of a discussion what you put into it, Your whole attitude since you started posting has been negative if you did not agree with the poster. > I've honestly given serious thought in the last >two days to selling my unfinished project. I'm gonna stay out of the shop >for a few days, > The statement above says volumes about you. For someone to say they are going to give up a project because they got their little feeling hurt by some faceless people on the Internet is pretty silly IMO. Anyone of the RVs are a joy to fly and give that up based on the RV-List is certainly your loss. If you have been lurking as long as you say you have, you know that these types of things come up every so often. >put a few hundred on the bicycle instead, and see how I >feel. Building something as big and pricey as this over such a long time >gives a person plenty of opportunities to doubt, and past experience has >taught me to ride it out. Incidently, I have attended one small RV fly-in >over the summer and there were definitely two camps: guys who were >absolutely terrrific and loved the sharing, and guys who were there to hold >court . My girlfriend couldn't get over it, said it wasn't at all what she >expected. > > > I say it is the attitude you portray that gets the responses that you get. >As for the glass vs. metal thing, I think you're like a guy on a Yamaha at a >biker bar. I personally would love to build a composite if they could design >something that looks like a "normal" airplane. I've just not been able to >warm up to the look of the pushers. Have you seen Cory Bird's plane, >Symmetry?? Un-freakin-believable. I saw a guy at the fly in who had >completely filled ALL the rivets, seams, ripples, etc on his RV with body >filler. I mean the plane looked like a glass plane, even up close. I'm sure >I'll catch heck for saying it, but that filler will eventually pop off in >places. Too much differential expansion and flexing between the metal and >filler. I've worked with that stuff since I was a kid and you can only get >away with so much. If a perfectly blocked, dead-straight airframe is what >you want, composite is the only way to get and keep it. > >On the other hand, the support and service at Van's is outstanding. Even my >undrilled kit has been awesome and it really does turn out a great airplane. >Go for a ride in each I say before you decide. And get ready for the itchies >if you choose the glass. > > > Totally agree with you on the above statements. >Steve Zicree >do not archive > > Jerry do not archive _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:41 AM PST US From: "Bobby Hester" Subject: Re: RE: RV-List: Edge Gromment? --> RV-List message posted by: "Bobby Hester" Great I have a few other things I need to order from you so this will work out great :-) I checked your site before I posted, I thought you would have it. I'll wait till it's on your site. > -----Original Message----- > From: "Stein Bruch" > To: > Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:41 (CDT) > Subject: RE: RV-List: Edge Gromment? > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" > > It's officially called Grommet strip, but in the airline world its mainly > referred to as "caterpillar tracks". I have a bunch of it, and will have it > for sale on my website hopefully by tomorrow (or sometime this week when I > have a spare minute). The stuff from ACS is high $$ (but is fine quality), > and really more than is necessary for the job. The plain nylon stuff is > cheap, easy to use, and I have it in 2 thicknesses. Check for it on my > website this week. > > Cheers, > Stein Bruch > > http://www.steinair.com > > do not archive > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bobby Hester > To: RV7and7A; RV-List > Subject: RV-List: Edge Gromment? > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester > > Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything > about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one > get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The > plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires. > > -- > Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY > Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ > RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) > > > _-===================================================================== > _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- > _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the > _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this > _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the > _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! > _-_-= List Contribution Web Site > _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! > _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > _-_-===================================================================== > _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - > _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions > _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other > _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > _-===================================================================== > _-= List Related Information > _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com > _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription > _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search > _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list > _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat > _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives > _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list > _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report > _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-===================================================================== > > > _-===================================================================== > _-> _-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- > _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the > _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this > _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the > _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! > _-> _-= List Contribution Web Site > _-> _-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-> _-= Thank you for your generous support! > _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > _-> _-===================================================================== > _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - > _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions > _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other > _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > _-===================================================================== > _-= List Related Information > _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com > _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription > _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search > _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list > _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat > _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives > _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list > _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report > _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-===================================================================== > > > > > ------- Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:00:09 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: RV Stall/Spin Issues --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Patience folks .... not RV related (on my part .... don't have one yet) but it's my chance to learn something about them. Doug Rozendaal wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > >Geez, > >I have been traveling all week, almost 3000 miles in the -4 this week, and I >nearly missed all the fun!!!! > I'm sure we're not talking about the flying! :-P >This is almost as good as the old tailwheel vs trike, or three-point vs >wheel-landing rampages. > And you forgot primer wars. >Here is my $.02 worth. This is all "my opinion." Since I have not been >adding much lately, some of the new listers may not know me, and there seems >to be some new found concern about the qualification of opinion givers. I >will share that I am an ATP, CFII, MEI, with type ratings in the B-25, PBY, >DC-3 and additional authorized aircraft rating in the P-51, F-4U, & T-28 >with an "all makes and models, single and multi-engine piston powered" >endorsement. > Your reputation preceeds you. I am impressed. Well, impressed is a poor word. Jealous as hell is more like it!! >The RV is a lousy aerobatic airplane that does great "gentlemans" acro. > Like the T-6 and P-51? > Let me explain, The RV is pretty unforgiving of botched manuvers because the >stall speed is so low, the redline is so high, and the airplane is so clean. >A "good" acro airplane will allow you to screw up nearly any manuver and not >break the airplane. That is absolutely not true of an RV!!! The thing >between your legs in an RV is truely the "wing removal lever" > You missed the 'yanking and banking' in the pattern thread. Smooth movement of the controls (and not so rapid) should keep any airplane within it's design envelope. (IMHO) >Spin training should be a no go item for any kind of acro in any kind of >airplane. > Absolutely! But, some folks are hard to convince. Sadly, some of those aren't here to tell us what went wrong. > You do not have to do the spin training in your RV, but if you >are not willing to spin your RV, then your acro should be limited to loops >and rolls at speeds with some margin in them. If you do hammerheads, long >enough, sooner or later you will end up in a spin. If you kick left rudder >and outside aileron at, or nearly at, zero airspeed, these are perfect >pro-spin inputs, and if the airplane is falling off front or back, you stick >in some elevator to hold the vertical line, bingo, spin. Right side up, or >upside down. > Ah, the infamous 'wifferdill'. I think, for a low-aerobatic-time pilot not only are they in a spin, but they're also disoriented and haven't a clue what's going on. Thinking about it can eat up a whole lot of altitude. The spin training will teach you what to look for and react almost instinctively. >If you try to cheat and kick early, you will sooner or later do a snap on >the up-line, with out enough speed to finish it and you'll flop over into a >spin. > This is true of almost any airplane, aerobatic or not. Even with the Pitts, and a whole lot of vertical hours (I love that!!!) I've waited 'till too late ..... and ended up in an outside spin because the tail came around. The Pitts will handle that, but I'm not sure the the RV and will let someone else relate their experience .... if they can. >The only RV that I have spun is the -4 and it spins and recovers fine, >pretty fast, but, as noted here by someone else, the airplane is not really >happy doing it. The fuselage makes noises that I really dislike. > Any idea what makes the noises? Turbulence banging the side of the fuselage??? Buffet on a stalled vertical fin??? > I have a >C/S (forward CG) and if I do not have the stick absolutely full aft it hooks >up and unhooks and that gets kind of aggressive. > Now this is intriguing to me. I assume that you're describing a stalled, unstalled, stalled activity while still in a spin (because of rudder)? That speaks well of a stable airplane. > I do not regularly spin >it. I do not spin it for kicks, only occasionally for proficency. For >kicks I spin my T-crate, it spins pretty quick too, but without all the >spooky noises. The T-6 spins pretty quick too, and is fun. It rattles >shakes, but it is built like a tank and I have no worries about it coming >apart. > >Finally, everyone should regularly practice slow flight and stall >recoveries. Stall awareness and spin avoidance will save many more lives >than spin recovery. > Excellent advice again. If you don't stall it, you can't spin it. I think, however, that most folks get into trouble because they're the limits of the slow flight, and the airplane stalls, and drops a wing, and since aileron's aren't effective, stomp on a rudder to pick that wing up. That's the basic way to enter an upright spin. That comment is for the masses. Doug already knows that! > Except for acro, most places where you are likely to >stall\spin are too close to the ground to recover from a spin, so if you >don't plan to do acro, or flight instruct, I agree that spin training is >optional. Spin training is good training and will make you a better pilot, >it is a good way to learn how to "Fly the Airplane" when the world is >seemingly going to hell around you. Go find an acro instructor with a >Decathalon and explore the envelope. > >If you got this far, you can have your $.02 back... > I'll leave it on the counter .... call it small compensation for some knowledge. Someday we'll meet face to face, I hope. Maybe at Sun-n-Fun??? I'd love to pick your brain!!! Linn > >Tailwinds, >Doug Rozendaal > > >_-===================================================================== >_->_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- >_-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) >_->_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the >_-= Contribution link below to find out more about this >_-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the >_-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! >_->_-= List Contribution Web Site >_->_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_->_-= Thank you for your generous support! >_-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >_->_-===================================================================== >_-= - The RV-List Email Forum - >_-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions >_-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other >_-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. >_-===================================================================== >_-= List Related Information >_-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com >_-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription >_-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm >_-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search >_-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list >_-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list >_-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat >_-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives >_-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare >_-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list >_-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists >_-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report >_-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution >_-===================================================================== > > > > _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:54:09 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Spin Recovery From: "Valovich, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could make a difference. Paul Valovich Booger _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:49 AM PST US From: "DAVID REEL" Subject: Re: RV-List: Oil where I didn't expect it --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" I've had a beautiful Bart LaLonde IO360-B2B engine sitting in a crate for much longer than I care to admit. Now it is finally in danger of getting hung - in another month or so. It's dangling from an engine hoist. I thought I'd bolt the AFP air controller on today (temporarily) so I could roll the engine into a close approximation of its final resting place and get an idea of where the control cables should penetrate the firewall, where the fuel hoses go, etc.. Much to my surprise when I removed the plate Bart had bolted on to the intake, and pulled out the plastic plug, about a pint of oil splooshed out onto the floor. Since he had a big plug in there, I'm assuming the oil was put there intentionally, but why is there oil in my air intake? Further more, how do I clean it out before I try bolting the air controller on? I don't want oil dribbling into my air controller. -- Tom Sargent, RV-6A Since noone seems to have answered this, Tom, here goes. When preped for long term storage, a lot of oil is sprayed into each cylinder. Some will have open intake valves so this gets into the intake plumbing and runs down to the bottom over time. Perfectly normal & also occured on my O360 from Lycoming. To remove it I just wiped out inside as far up as I could reach with paper towels. Because it's been sitting a long time, everything that could has collected at the bottom. If you rotate the crankshaft however, some fresh oil will get in & though you should avoid rotation as much as possible to leave an oil film on the cylinder walls, you will have to rotate when you fit the spinner. So, I'd delay attaching anything you don't want to get oily until the last minute. Dave Reel - RV8A _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:34 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Large Aluminum Tubing - source? From: sjhdcl@kingston.net --> RV-List message posted by: sjhdcl@kingston.net Can anyone give me another source for large aluminum tubing? Aircraft spruce has 4" tubing that is 0.049" wall thickness (6061-T6). Wicks has 4 1/2" diameter tubing but its 0.120" wall thickness (6061-T6). Anybody know where I can get 4 1/4" tubing with 0.062" or 0.049" wall thickness? Steve RV7A #2 _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Other than the normal spin recovery techniques, here is one that taught me a lot. I had a retired 2 star AF general demonstrate a deep stall in my 6 where you practice your foot work for early spin recovery. In my 6 we: 1. approached a power off stall 2. HE held the stick back with 1/2 stick deflection. I was NOT allowed to touch the stick. I had to cross my arms. 3. Dance your feet rudders only while he keeps stick half way back. The plane shakes and rattles and tries to spin left and right while you recover rudder only. The planes is in a deep stall continuously. It is an unnerving exercise but it will teach you how to use your feet. Keep the wings level feet only. I can hear him in my ear now. "USE YOUR FEET! YOUR FEET DAMN IT! MOVE MOVE" It is hard to overcome the tendency to recover with the stick. In the RV, Spin recovery is all about early detection and having a feel for your feet reacting quickly. This exercise will get your feet wired to your brain and your butt very quickly. Once you have mastered this, then do it power on and now your in for a ride. This really worked for me. Your results may vary. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Subject: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could make a difference. Paul Valovich Booger _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:00 AM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Mr. Ford, (and Mr. Zicree) <> And I was going to stay out of this and just watch..... Oh well. First, I am not ranting or flaming, as you seem to be a bit thin-skinned. I am amazed that you would make a decision based on a few e-mails from people you don't know. I would think that a truly informed decision would take in to account things such as aircraft mission and capabilities, value, the support provided by the factory. Then the final decision would be how much fun they are to fly and how much the "fit" your flying style. But then again, that's just me. You have gotten the wrong impression about the people on this list. Again, I'm not attacking you, since you seem to be a little sensitive. I have had unbelievable experiences with guys I've met here. I've bought items here, for great values... And I had no worries that they would arrive as advertised. I have had guys send me stuff for FREE here. I woke up one morning and found out a guy was getting rid of some grounding straps.... he sent one to me and wouldn't take any money. At fly-ins, I've met guys from here that are true gentlemen. One of them is in the little "fracas" that you reference in your Cozy decision. Sam Buckhannon is a true gentleman that is as nice as they come. He also built a beautiful RV-6 so fast that it emasculated some of us trying to keep up! And he has valuable input, and should be listened to. I've had guys from this list come to my house and help with my airplane, and one guy I met off this list took me flying to prepare for my check out with Mike Seagar. He stuck me in the left seat of his aircraft and did a full check out including touch and go's, and wouldn't take any more payment than an airport hot dog. I haven't met Jerry Springer (another in your little furball) but you know what??? he's a LONG time RVer that is knowledgeable and tells it like it is. He deserves to be listened to, even if you don't agree and don't like his bluntness. Which brings me to the larger point. I've been in professional aviation all my adult (if you can call it that) life. I was in the Air Force for ten years and now with an airline (bankrupt, thank-you) for eight. I can tell you that pilots are Type-A personalities. We are an opinionated lot. By nature we believe we are right and stick to our decisions. I have had a hand in washing guys out of the Air Force that were milk-toast guys that couldn't make a decision. But maybe they were "softer or kinder" in e-mails. Pilots need to be thick skinned. You need to be able to handle criticism and defend your argument to those who don't agree. You may be right, but if you run away to those who will just agree with you or find guys who won't disagree then you are absolutely not someone I will share a cockpit with. To make a life decision based on the fact someone was not nice enough on an internet list.... well frankly, I have no words for that. But I do wish you the best. I hope you finish your Cozy and you love it and we meet at Oshkosh and you tell me it was the best decision you've ever made. And I hope you take ribbing better than you do here, or we may have a short conversation. You guys (Mr. Zicree) need to realize that the impersonal nature of e-mail communications makes this a cyclical thing on this list. Someone gets their feelings hurt and wants to make someone "Their Daisy" (Read the archives). But to indict them based on your limited observations is just plain narrow-minded. And I don't care how long you have lurked. Because then you **should** remember all the kind, generous things these guys do. They fix strangers aircraft when they are stuck cross country. They give people rides to fly-ins and demonstration rides. They help. So maybe you need to look in the mirror and see which side of the keyboard the problem lies. You obviously need to surround yourselves with people that agree with you. And if you fly with the same attitude you type, then , please.... don't take passengers. Go ahead... flame away, I can handle it. Keith Hughes RV-6 Denver do not archive ----- Original Message ----- > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" >> >> >> The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their >> impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY. >> I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something >> about airplanes. >> Good luck! >> Jack Ford >> _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:00 AM PST US From: "Jack Ford" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" Steve, Please finish your plane and smile. It is now a social rule that 90% of the people on the planet are put there to make you want to be with the other 10%. You're one of the terrific people, go with them. Don't rise to the bait, these guys are looking for an opportunity to pontificate, not contribute to the overall understanding. I too have been a wacked-out tinkerer and builder of interesting stuff. I also play classical guitar. I've dabbled in fiberglass, making an Austin Healy look like a Cobra (only better). Please go back into your shop and forget the size 18 collars with size four hats. Best wishes, Jack do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > Jack, > > I've put 1300 hours into the constructon of my RV4 over the last 5 years and > have enjoyed the heck out of every minute of it. I'm a builder, always have > been. Hotrods, motorcycles, fine furniture, stringed instruments, and > probably a few things I can't recall. I just love being alone in my shop and > when I'm without a project I'm hard to live with. The construction of my > plane has been an entirely solo affair, with only occasional assistance from > the folks at Vans. I've always like it best that way -- different strokes > for different folks I guess. It was only during the last month that I > finally decided to participate in the discussions on the RV-list. Having > never interacted with the RV community, I just assumed that they would be a > bunch of friendly tinkerers (as I consider myself). Don't get me wrong, they > may in-large be just that, but my experience here has changed my feelings > about the whole endeavor. I've honestly given serious thought in the last > two days to selling my unfinished project. I'm gonna stay out of the shop > for a few days, put a few hundred on the bicycle instead, and see how I > feel. Building something as big and pricey as this over such a long time > gives a person plenty of opportunities to doubt, and past experience has > taught me to ride it out. Incidently, I have attended one small RV fly-in > over the summer and there were definitely two camps: guys who were > absolutely terrrific and loved the sharing, and guys who were there to hold > court . My girlfriend couldn't get over it, said it wasn't at all what she > expected. > > As for the glass vs. metal thing, I think you're like a guy on a Yamaha at a > biker bar. I personally would love to build a composite if they could design > something that looks like a "normal" airplane. I've just not been able to > warm up to the look of the pushers. Have you seen Cory Bird's plane, > Symmetry?? Un-freakin-believable. I saw a guy at the fly in who had > completely filled ALL the rivets, seams, ripples, etc on his RV with body > filler. I mean the plane looked like a glass plane, even up close. I'm sure > I'll catch heck for saying it, but that filler will eventually pop off in > places. Too much differential expansion and flexing between the metal and > filler. I've worked with that stuff since I was a kid and you can only get > away with so much. If a perfectly blocked, dead-straight airframe is what > you want, composite is the only way to get and keep it. > > On the other hand, the support and service at Van's is outstanding. Even my > undrilled kit has been awesome and it really does turn out a great airplane. > Go for a ride in each I say before you decide. And get ready for the itchies > if you choose the glass. > > Steve Zicree > do not archive > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jack Ford" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" > > > > Steve, > > I have been lurking along the sidelines of this forum for a while. > > Specifically, trying to make up my mind whether to build an RV or a Cozy > > MKIV (for which I have plans). I am not a low time pilot, I've had spin > > training. None of that is germain to this conversation. > > One could not hope to find a friendlier, more patient, more helpful group > of > > people on the internet than on Marc Zeitlin's Unofficial Cozy forum. > > Incredible sense of community. Everyone is treated with respect.Very few > > personal attacks. > > The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their > > impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY. > > I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something > > about airplanes. > > Good luck! > > Jack Ford > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "steve zicree" > > To: > > Subject: RV-List: Spins and canopies > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > > > For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial > > post. If I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize > directly > > to him, but for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so > > controversial. > > > > > > Mark, > > > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the hair-raising > > > deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses > start > > > with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In > fact, > > > the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman he > > > accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but > confidence > > > building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, get > > some > > > spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can > be > > a > > > dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed is > > > great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training. > > > Steve Zicree > > > > > > I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons of > > open gasoline around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, > and > > was told by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably > wasn't > > smart enough to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? Wow! > > One poster suggested that I have "lurked" on the list for years because > I'm > > not worthy of adding to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because > most > > of what I saw were ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in > after > > all. > > > > > > Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a > tip-up > > was so great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to > sit > > down and shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo of > > the 6 to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me that, > in > > HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted upward > > and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge > and > > the resulting torque created by the drag force. > > > > > > I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more experienced > > than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make > > someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and > > flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of > > Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied > > mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with tacit > > acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the world > of > > aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the > > reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to question > > the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or > > idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me. > > > > > > Steve Zicree > > > > > > disappointed quite Very dissapointing from > > > > > > > > > _-===================================================================== > > > _-> _-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- > > > _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) > > > _-> _-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. 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Click on the > _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this > _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the > _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! > _-> _-= List Contribution Web Site > _-> _-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-> _-= Thank you for your generous support! > _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > _-> _-===================================================================== > _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - > _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions > _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other > _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. > _-===================================================================== > _-= List Related Information > _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com > _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription > _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search > _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list > _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat > _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives > _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list > _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report > _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution > _-===================================================================== > > _-===================================================================== _-_-= -- Please Support Your Lists This Month -- _-= (And Get Some AWESOME FREE Gifts!) _-_-= November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Click on the _-= Contribution link below to find out more about this _-= year's Terrific Free Incentive Gifts provided by the _-= The Builder's Bookstore www.buildersbooks.com! _-_-= List Contribution Web Site _-_-= http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-_-= Thank you for your generous support! _-= -Matt Dralle, List Admin. _-_-===================================================================== _-= - The RV-List Email Forum - _-= This forum is sponsored entirely through the Contributions _-= of List members. You'll never see banner ads or any other _-= form of direct advertising on the Matronics Forums. _-===================================================================== _-= List Related Information _-= Post Message: rv-list@matronics.com _-= UN/SUBSCRIBE: http://www.matronics.com/subscription _-= List FAQ: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm _-= Search Engine: http://www.matronics.com/search _-= 7-Day Browse: http://www.matronics.com/browse/rv-list _-= Browse Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list _-= Live List Chat: http://www.matronics.com/chat _-= Archives: http://www.matronics.com/archives _-= Photo Share: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare _-= List Specific: http://www.matronics.com/rv-list _-= Other Lists: http://www.matronics.com/emaillists _-= Trouble Report http://www.matronics.com/trouble-report _-= Contributions: http://www.matronics.com/contribution _-===================================================================== ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins and canopies From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" On a lighter note, same topic. This past weekend, a friend was doing some acro in his 8. A loose fire extinguisher bottle was very unfriendly to his canopy. Pics here. http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/doggscanopy This is a very important lesson folks. This could have been his head. Mike Do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:06 AM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Jerry, Why are you even commenting on my open and honest response to ANOTHER lister regarding his impression of this forum? In spite of my "little feelings" being hurt, I have gone back and looked at every post I've ever made to this list trying to see just what you might perceive as "negative", and see nothing until the personal attacks, condescension, and sarcasm from yourself and others began. Is standing up to you considered negative? I have also received upwards of a dozen off-list responses voicing opinions similar to the one expressed in Jack's email. If my truthful remarks about possibly abandoning my project speaks volumes about me, then what of the hundreds of builders who've had similar doubts over the course of their projects for equally trivial reasons? Not you though, right superman? The fact that the people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but I try not to operate that way. As I said, I reviewed all of my comments and took "a look in the mirror" because it's the right thing to do. Have you? Steve Zicree ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:02:02 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin Recover Procedure 1. Cut the throttle. 2. Take your hand off the stick. 3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops. 4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive. The second is the PARE Method 1. Power, idle 2. Ailerons, neutral 3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation 4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted. The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires the PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood of success. This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up" (from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly down the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite direction and several people have been killed because they continued to push on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder" that would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at you. Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may require 1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This would require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount of confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input selected while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun the Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered by 10,000 feet, get out. There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing not even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this in my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and pull the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning pretty quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip from an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done that, thank you) None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with an enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes. One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal lever. An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that happen to do great aerobatics. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could > make a difference. > > Paul Valovich > > Booger ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:27 AM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: planes are fun, -8 spin --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Gotta add opposite aileron with the -8 to get it to spin. Otherwise, you'll just have a very fast downward spiral based upon my experience. Recovery is reasonable. Pull the power, neutralize controls. I add a little opposite rudder and down elevator to stop the rotation more positively, if I recall correctly. With a fwd CG (me alone onboard is the only way I've done them in the -8), the -8 recovers predictably. It will spin up after a couple of turns and understandable begins dropping pretty fast. Have only gone 4-5 turns in mine. Second the concerns about the tail integrity. During flight testing, I tried snap rolls. After hearing funny noises from behind, I decided no more snap rolls. I also am conscious about how hard/fast I kick the rudder - smooth, progressive rudder application only for me. 2 cents Bryan Jones 680-hrs -8, ~775 total RV >Please tell me about it. > >It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is it >more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is >there >more to it? > >- >Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. >Larry@BowenAero.com >http://BowenAero.com > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com] >[snip] > > > > Just wait'll ya get to spin it!!!!!! 8-) > > > > Mark & do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:40 AM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Thanks, brother. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Ford" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" > > Steve, > Please finish your plane and smile. It is now a social rule that 90% of the > people on the planet are put there to make you want to be with the other > 10%. You're one of the terrific people, go with them. > Don't rise to the bait, these guys are looking for an opportunity to > pontificate, not contribute to the overall understanding. > I too have been a wacked-out tinkerer and builder of interesting stuff. I > also play classical guitar. I've dabbled in fiberglass, making an Austin > Healy look like a Cobra (only better). > Please go back into your shop and forget the size 18 collars with size four > hats. > Best wishes, > Jack > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "steve zicree" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > Jack, > > > > I've put 1300 hours into the constructon of my RV4 over the last 5 years > and > > have enjoyed the heck out of every minute of it. I'm a builder, always > have > > been. Hotrods, motorcycles, fine furniture, stringed instruments, and > > probably a few things I can't recall. I just love being alone in my shop > and > > when I'm without a project I'm hard to live with. The construction of my > > plane has been an entirely solo affair, with only occasional assistance > from > > the folks at Vans. I've always like it best that way -- different strokes > > for different folks I guess. It was only during the last month that I > > finally decided to participate in the discussions on the RV-list. Having > > never interacted with the RV community, I just assumed that they would be > a > > bunch of friendly tinkerers (as I consider myself). Don't get me wrong, > they > > may in-large be just that, but my experience here has changed my feelings > > about the whole endeavor. I've honestly given serious thought in the last > > two days to selling my unfinished project. I'm gonna stay out of the shop > > for a few days, put a few hundred on the bicycle instead, and see how I > > feel. Building something as big and pricey as this over such a long time > > gives a person plenty of opportunities to doubt, and past experience has > > taught me to ride it out. Incidently, I have attended one small RV fly-in > > over the summer and there were definitely two camps: guys who were > > absolutely terrrific and loved the sharing, and guys who were there to > hold > > court . My girlfriend couldn't get over it, said it wasn't at all what she > > expected. > > > > As for the glass vs. metal thing, I think you're like a guy on a Yamaha at > a > > biker bar. I personally would love to build a composite if they could > design > > something that looks like a "normal" airplane. I've just not been able to > > warm up to the look of the pushers. Have you seen Cory Bird's plane, > > Symmetry?? Un-freakin-believable. I saw a guy at the fly in who had > > completely filled ALL the rivets, seams, ripples, etc on his RV with body > > filler. I mean the plane looked like a glass plane, even up close. I'm > sure > > I'll catch heck for saying it, but that filler will eventually pop off in > > places. Too much differential expansion and flexing between the metal and > > filler. I've worked with that stuff since I was a kid and you can only get > > away with so much. If a perfectly blocked, dead-straight airframe is what > > you want, composite is the only way to get and keep it. > > > > On the other hand, the support and service at Van's is outstanding. Even > my > > undrilled kit has been awesome and it really does turn out a great > airplane. > > Go for a ride in each I say before you decide. And get ready for the > itchies > > if you choose the glass. > > > > Steve Zicree > > do not archive > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jack Ford" > > To: > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" > > > > > > Steve, > > > I have been lurking along the sidelines of this forum for a while. > > > Specifically, trying to make up my mind whether to build an RV or a Cozy > > > MKIV (for which I have plans). I am not a low time pilot, I've had spin > > > training. None of that is germain to this conversation. > > > One could not hope to find a friendlier, more patient, more helpful > group > > of > > > people on the internet than on Marc Zeitlin's Unofficial Cozy forum. > > > Incredible sense of community. Everyone is treated with respect.Very few > > > personal attacks. > > > The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their > > > impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY. > > > I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know > something > > > about airplanes. > > > Good luck! > > > Jack Ford > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "steve zicree" > > > To: > > > Subject: RV-List: Spins and canopies > > > > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > > > > > > > For all to read, here is the original text of my highly controversial > > > post. If I misinterpreted Mark's attitude toward spins I apologize > > directly > > > to him, but for the life of me I can't see what I said that was so > > > controversial. > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > I've never spun (or flown) an RV, but it's probably not the > hair-raising > > > > deal you think it is. Keep in mind that most good aerobatics courses > > start > > > > with spins because botched manuevers can easily turn into spins. In > > fact, > > > > the first time my highly skilled instructor demonstrated an immelman > he > > > > accidentally spun us. It is kind of spooky the first time, but > > confidence > > > > building as well. At any rate, if you plan on doing loops and such, > get > > > some > > > > spin training in something first. Not to harp on it, but a split-s can > > be > > > a > > > > dangerous trick if you get things wrong. The potential for overspeed > is > > > > great. Again, they're no big thing with the proper training. > > > > Steve Zicree > > > > > > > > I once stated to the list that I was uncomfortable toting 18 gallons > of > > > open gasoline around my enclosed garage for the purpose of tank testing, > > and > > > was told by the experienced builders/flyers that therefore I probably > > wasn't > > > smart enough to "share the sky" with the rest of you. Share the sky? > Wow! > > > One poster suggested that I have "lurked" on the list for years because > > I'm > > > not worthy of adding to it. The truth is I avoided contributing because > > most > > > of what I saw were ego driven arguments. Well, I guess I got sucked in > > after > > > all. > > > > > > > > Regarding the canopy jettison issue, I ASKED if the downforce on a > > tip-up > > > was so great as to prevent anything from lifting it. Again I was told to > > sit > > > down and shut up. Not being an expert on such things, I emailed a photo > of > > > the 6 to a colleague of mine who is a fluid dynamicist. He tells me > that, > > in > > > HIS OPINION the forces on the canopy in forward flight are exerted > upward > > > and backward relative to the airplane. Thus the real issue is the hinge > > and > > > the resulting torque created by the drag force. > > > > > > > > I am well aware that there are pilots here who are much more > experienced > > > than I, but I also know that flight hours alone do not necessarily make > > > someone an expert on every issue surrounding design, construction, and > > > flight. A good example would be the Wright's eventual refutation of > > > Lilienthal's airfoil L/D data. As I mentioned before, I am an applied > > > mathematician. This work requires an open, questioning mindset, with > tacit > > > acceptance of dogma getting you nowhere. I am relatively new to the > world > > of > > > aviation, but from what I've seen here I would have to assume that the > > > reverse is true in the world of homebuilders, and that daring to > question > > > the old guard simply gets one shouted down. I am perhaps naive or > > > idealistic, but this discovery is very disappointing to me. > > > > > > > > Steve Zicree > > > > > > > > disappointed quite Very dissapointing from > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _-> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _-> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _-> > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:40 AM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I guess I'm more of the Wright Brothers, tinkerer, scientist type, than the macho, never wrong, blood and guts, war story type. In the words of a great mariner: I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" > > Mr. Ford, (and Mr. Zicree) > > <> And I was going to stay out of this and just watch..... Oh well. > > First, I am not ranting or flaming, as you seem to be a bit thin-skinned. I > am amazed that you would make a decision based on a few e-mails from people > you don't know. I would think that a truly informed decision would take in > to account things such as aircraft mission and capabilities, value, the > support provided by the factory. Then the final decision would be how much > fun they are to fly and how much the "fit" your flying style. But then > again, that's just me. > > You have gotten the wrong impression about the people on this list. Again, > I'm not attacking you, since you seem to be a little sensitive. I have had > unbelievable experiences with guys I've met here. I've bought items here, > for great values... And I had no worries that they would arrive as > advertised. I have had guys send me stuff for FREE here. I woke up one > morning and found out a guy was getting rid of some grounding straps.... he > sent one to me and wouldn't take any money. At fly-ins, I've met guys from > here that are true gentlemen. One of them is in the little "fracas" that > you reference in your Cozy decision. Sam Buckhannon is a true gentleman > that is as nice as they come. He also built a beautiful RV-6 so fast that > it emasculated some of us trying to keep up! And he has valuable input, and > should be listened to. I've had guys from this list come to my house and > help with my airplane, and one guy I met off this list took me flying to > prepare for my check out with Mike Seagar. He stuck me in the left seat of > his aircraft and did a full check out including touch and go's, and wouldn't > take any more payment than an airport hot dog. I haven't met Jerry Springer > (another in your little furball) but you know what??? he's a LONG time RVer > that is knowledgeable and tells it like it is. He deserves to be listened > to, even if you don't agree and don't like his bluntness. Which brings me > to the larger point. > > I've been in professional aviation all my adult (if you can call it that) > life. I was in the Air Force for ten years and now with an airline > (bankrupt, thank-you) for eight. I can tell you that pilots are Type-A > personalities. We are an opinionated lot. By nature we believe we are > right and stick to our decisions. I have had a hand in washing guys out of > the Air Force that were milk-toast guys that couldn't make a decision. But > maybe they were "softer or kinder" in e-mails. Pilots need to be thick > skinned. You need to be able to handle criticism and defend your argument > to those who don't agree. You may be right, but if you run away to those > who will just agree with you or find guys who won't disagree then you are > absolutely not someone I will share a cockpit with. To make a life decision > based on the fact someone was not nice enough on an internet list.... well > frankly, I have no words for that. But I do wish you the best. I hope you > finish your Cozy and you love it and we meet at Oshkosh and you tell me it > was the best decision you've ever made. And I hope you take ribbing better > than you do here, or we may have a short conversation. > > You guys (Mr. Zicree) need to realize that the impersonal nature of e-mail > communications makes this a cyclical thing on this list. Someone gets their > feelings hurt and wants to make someone "Their Daisy" (Read the archives). > But to indict them based on your limited observations is just plain > narrow-minded. And I don't care how long you have lurked. Because then you > **should** remember all the kind, generous things these guys do. They fix > strangers aircraft when they are stuck cross country. They give people > rides to fly-ins and demonstration rides. They help. > > So maybe you need to look in the mirror and see which side of the keyboard > the problem lies. You obviously need to surround yourselves with people > that agree with you. And if you fly with the same attitude you type, then , > please.... don't take passengers. > > Go ahead... flame away, I can handle it. > > Keith Hughes > RV-6 > Denver > > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" > >> > >> > >> The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their > >> impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY. > >> I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something > >> about airplanes. > >> Good luck! > >> Jack Ford > >> > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:17 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: RV-List: Aileron trim springs --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" Fellow listers, Does anyone know if the RV8 manual trim kit springs are the same as the RV6 manual trim kit springs.!? I bought the -8 set to get the benefit of some of the parts and the instructions. I may need to get the -6 set to get the correct springs though...I think the -8 springs are too heavy. Anyone with a set of -6 manual aileron trim instructions - I would appreciate a set of scans.... Thanks, Ralph Capen ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:07 AM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: RV-List: Fw: RV8-List: Dynon remote compasses --> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone Just forwarding this question to the RV-List for John... CS -----Forwarded Message----- From: John Porter Subject: RV8-List: Dynon remote compasses --> RV8-List message posted by: "John Porter" Hi, Where are guys putting the Dynon remote compasses? I have seen in the tail and on the wing access panels but haven't heard of how well they work. Anyone out there with a system working on a -8? Thanks, John Porter ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US From: GMC Subject: RE: RV-List: Large Aluminum Tubing - source? --> RV-List message posted by: GMC --> RV-List message posted by: sjhdcl@kingston.net Can anyone give me another source for large aluminum tubing? Aircraft spruce has 4" tubing that is 0.049" wall thickness (6061-T6). Wicks has 4 1/2" diameter tubing but its 0.120" wall thickness (6061-T6). Anybody know where I can get 4 1/4" tubing with 0.062" or 0.049" wall thickness? Steve RV7A #2 Try agricultural sprinkling/irrigation suppliers, I believe one of our local builders used this source for long range tanks that slip into the wing lightening holes. George in Langley ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:35 AM PST US From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Throttle(s) - Idle Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. Stick - abruptly full aft and hold Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn neddle and hold Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder Controld neutral and recover from the dive. That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? Dave > [Original Message] > From: Doug Rozendaal > To: > Date: 11/15/2004 12:01:54 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > > I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin Recover > Procedure > > 1. Cut the throttle. > > 2. Take your hand off the stick. > > 3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops. > > 4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive. > > The second is the PARE Method > > 1. Power, idle > > 2. Ailerons, neutral > > 3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation > > 4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted. > > The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires the > PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in > that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the > airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood of > success. > > This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up" > (from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly down > the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite > direction and several people have been killed because they continued to push > on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder" that > would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at > you. > > Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may require > 1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This would > require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount of > confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input selected > while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun the > Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered by > 10,000 feet, get out. > > There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing not > even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this in > my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and pull > the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite > direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning pretty > quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip from > an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done > that, thank you) > > None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing > this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a > responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with an > enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier > attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes. > > One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal lever. > An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate > structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that happen > to do great aerobatics. > > Tailwinds, > Doug Rozendaal > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > > > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? > > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get > > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you > > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem > > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a > > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could > > make a difference. > > > > Paul Valovich > > > > Booger > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:42:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery From: "Larry Bowen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Is that the "falling leaf"? Or is that different? - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Other than the normal spin recovery techniques, here is one that taught > me a lot. > I had a retired 2 star AF general demonstrate a deep stall in my 6 where > you practice your foot work for early spin recovery. In my 6 we: > 1. approached a power off stall > 2. HE held the stick back with 1/2 stick deflection. I was NOT allowed > to touch the stick. I had to cross my arms. > 3. Dance your feet rudders only while he keeps stick half way back. The > plane shakes and rattles and tries to spin left and right while you > recover rudder only. The planes is in a deep stall continuously. It is > an unnerving exercise but it will teach you how to use your feet. Keep > the wings level feet only. > > I can hear him in my ear now. "USE YOUR FEET! YOUR FEET DAMN IT! MOVE > MOVE" It is hard to overcome the tendency to recover with the stick. In > the RV, Spin recovery is all about early detection and having a feel for > your feet reacting quickly. This exercise will get your feet wired to > your brain and your butt very quickly. > > Once you have mastered this, then do it power on and now your in for a > ride. This really worked for me. > > Your results may vary. > Mike > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could > make a difference. > > Paul Valovich > > Booger > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers From: "Larry Bowen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my little halon extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? - Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > On a lighter note, same topic. > This past weekend, a friend was doing some acro in his 8. A loose fire > extinguisher bottle was very unfriendly to his canopy. > Pics here. > http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/doggscanopy > This is a very important lesson folks. This could have been his head. > Mike > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:45 AM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Hmmmmmmmm. And I said that where? A little more sarcasm might just prove your point. You know... the Wrights used to have day-long arguments. I don't remember either one of them leaving to build an Aerodrome. Regards. Keith do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > I guess I'm more of the Wright Brothers, tinkerer, scientist type, than > the > macho, never wrong, blood and guts, war story type. In the words of a > great > mariner: I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam. > > Steve Zicree > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:17 AM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Anyone else see irony? do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > Jerry, > > Not you though, right superman? >The fact that the > people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but > I > try not to operate that way. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:02 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Valovich, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > >A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? >For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get >out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you >got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem >to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a >few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could >make a difference. > >Paul Valovich > >Booger > Paul, recovery sequence will be somewhat different for different airplanes, but the basics are: Considering a fully developed spin at idle throttle, you have to stop the spin first, and gain airspeed so the controls are effective. Depending on the airplane, you may find that ailerons have the least effect, the elevator a little more (depending on power and how well the tail stays in the prop wash) and the most control comes from the rudder. So brisk application of rudder opposite the spin, and forward stick to get the nose down and gain airspeed. Here's where it gets dicey ... you may go over on your back and be in an opposite rotation spin. This terrifies a lot of people and puts them waay into the panic mode. Not a good thing. So, you need to fly the airplane out of the stall. Now something slick like the RVs will gain airspeed in huge amounts per second, so you need to be careful with that redline and judicious use of power coming out of the stall. Copious amounts of altitude will disappear in a heartbeat. Remember what Doug said about the wing removal tool between your legs. Someone said that the RVs spin very nose down so the amount of forward stick may be small. Now, having read this, I caution you about just running out and reading my email as you try to remove yourself from a spin. Go with someone in like model that's done 'em and have them demonstrate (not teach) any nuances that that particular model may have. I want to fly with y'all sometime in the future. Linn do not archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 10:19:26 AM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Dave, Unsat! Take your seat. Ahem. "Controls neutral after spinning stops and recover..." Keith. PS. I am actually impressed. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" > > Throttle(s) - Idle > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > neddle and hold > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:16 AM PST US From: "BRUCE GRAY" Subject: RV-List: RV8 Plans Error --> RV-List message posted by: "BRUCE GRAY" This weekend prepping the gap fairing for the flap on the left wing I referred to the plans for the correct call outs for rivet size. On drawing 10A, detail "A" it calls out for an AN470AD4-8,9 for the 3 most inner rivets that tie the gap fairing to the rear spar. Looking at the fairing, I dimpled it! Then looking at the spar, I countersunk it also. Oh man, do I screw up? No, because a few weeks earlier I was studying the flap plans (14A) gearing to construct those and notice a call out to put in AN426AD4-9 rivets in the three most inner holes for clearance issues for the lead edge of the flap in the flap channel. Don't know but I'll give factory a call and see if it can be change so know one over looks this issue. I say that because you do not have enough material in the gap fairing to get the proper countersink depth to put in after the fact that it is already riveted to the rear spar. Maybe people are installing AN470's and bending the lead edge of the flap more to allow for clearance? Good luck either way. Bruce Gray RV8 Wing's #81745 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Guess I would have to know what that is, which I don't. Maybe some of the ole timers can jump in here. Falling leaf? It's about what it felt like. Except the leaf is working smoothly and seems to always stay upright... well maybe not now that I think about it. . I most certainly did neither at the outset. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bowen Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Is that the "falling leaf"? Or is that different? - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Other than the normal spin recovery techniques, here is one that taught > me a lot. > I had a retired 2 star AF general demonstrate a deep stall in my 6 where > you practice your foot work for early spin recovery. In my 6 we: > 1. approached a power off stall > 2. HE held the stick back with 1/2 stick deflection. I was NOT allowed > to touch the stick. I had to cross my arms. > 3. Dance your feet rudders only while he keeps stick half way back. The > plane shakes and rattles and tries to spin left and right while you > recover rudder only. The planes is in a deep stall continuously. It is > an unnerving exercise but it will teach you how to use your feet. Keep > the wings level feet only. > > I can hear him in my ear now. "USE YOUR FEET! YOUR FEET DAMN IT! MOVE > MOVE" It is hard to overcome the tendency to recover with the stick. In > the RV, Spin recovery is all about early detection and having a feel for > your feet reacting quickly. This exercise will get your feet wired to > your brain and your butt very quickly. > > Once you have mastered this, then do it power on and now your in for a > ride. This really worked for me. > > Your results may vary. > Mike > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin recovery? > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to get > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could > make a difference. > > Paul Valovich > > Booger > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 10:29:30 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun, -8 spin --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters RV_8 Pilot wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > >Gotta add opposite aileron with the -8 to get it to spin. Otherwise, you'll >just have a very fast downward spiral based upon my experience. > I find this interesting. I would suspect that adding aileron would create the spiral, not the spin! Shows you what I know. As you approach the stall (either power on or power off) and you apply full up elevator (actually creates the stall) and then shortly after briskly apply rudder in the direction that you want the spin ...... that should be all you need. I suspect, and I could be terribly wrong here, is that the stall doesn't develop or the rudder isn't that effective, I hope you respond on-list or off because although I'll probably never spin a -8, I'll add it to my knowledge base. Linn ..... enjoying this thread do not archive > >Recovery is reasonable. Pull the power, neutralize controls. I add a >little opposite rudder and down elevator to stop the rotation more >positively, if I recall correctly. With a fwd CG (me alone onboard is the >only way I've done them in the -8), the -8 recovers predictably. > >It will spin up after a couple of turns and understandable begins dropping >pretty fast. Have only gone 4-5 turns in mine. > >Second the concerns about the tail integrity. During flight testing, I >tried snap rolls. After hearing funny noises from behind, I decided no more >snap rolls. I also am conscious about how hard/fast I kick the rudder - >smooth, progressive rudder application only for me. > >2 cents > >Bryan Jones 680-hrs -8, ~775 total RV > > > >>Please tell me about it. >> >>It's on my list of things to do. I've spun a C172 and a Decathalon. Is it >>more of the same, just quicker to accelerate when pointed down? Or is >>there >>more to it? >> >>- >>Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. >>Larry@BowenAero.com >>http://BowenAero.com >> >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com] >>> >>> >>[snip] >> >> >>>Just wait'll ya get to spin it!!!!!! 8-) >>> >>>Mark & do not archive >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 10:41:21 AM PST US From: "Jack Ford" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" In fairness to all, I neglected to mention that there was some GREAT WISDOM expressed along the line in this thread. Sometimes by the adversary. But when people start to make personal comments aside from the issue, good taste and etiquette are breached. Stick to the ISSUE, gentlemen. Jack ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > > Jerry, > > Why are you even commenting on my open and honest response to ANOTHER lister > regarding his impression of this forum? In spite of my "little feelings" > being hurt, I have gone back and looked at every post I've ever made to this > list trying to see just what you might perceive as "negative", and see > nothing until the personal attacks, condescension, and sarcasm from yourself > and others began. Is standing up to you considered negative? I have also > received upwards of a dozen off-list responses voicing opinions similar to > the one expressed in Jack's email. If my truthful remarks about possibly > abandoning my project speaks volumes about me, then what of the hundreds of > builders who've had similar doubts over the course of their projects for > equally trivial reasons? Not you though, right superman? The fact that the > people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but I > try not to operate that way. As I said, I reviewed all of my comments and > took "a look in the mirror" because it's the right thing to do. Have you? > > Steve Zicree > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:30 AM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my little halon > extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com Larry, this worked well for me... http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/Mvc-529x.jpg I could easily extract it by reaching behind my back. I checked by practicing in flight. Randy Lervold ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:30 AM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my little halon > extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? > > - > Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > > > > On a lighter note, same topic. > > This past weekend, a friend was doing some acro in his 8. A loose fire > > extinguisher bottle was very unfriendly to his canopy. > > Pics here. > > http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/doggscanopy > > This is a very important lesson folks. This could have been his head. > > Mike > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:25 AM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Mike, I can't get any work done today.... The maneuver you described is exactly a falling leaf. This is a GREAT training exercise and it is a great way to enter a spin. It was used extensively in WWII to teach using the rudder to raise the stalled wing, not the aileron. Most pilots will raise the stalled wing with the aileron and in most spam can type airplanes, it works, but it is still a bad idea. The problem is if the left wing stalls, starts to fall and you put in right aileron, you have increased the angle of attack on the wing that is stalling and again, in some airplanes, i.e., T-6 or a DC-3, you will instantly fill the windshield with the earth. Suppose you are turning base to final. You overshoot and in an effort not to exceed 30 deg bank angle like your instructor taught, you push the nose around with the rudder. This is a skidding turn, and the way you know it is a skidding turn is the ball is "up." In a slip, the ball will be down. In a skid the inside wing will stall first because it is moving slower than the outside wing. If you try to raise it with aileron, increasing the angle of attack on the stalled wing, you may impact the ground upside down, if you raise it with the rudder, you just might crash right side up, a much more survivable scenario..... Or better yet, recover from the stall as the wings are passing through level and fly away. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:28 AM PST US From: JVanLaak@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun, -8 spin --> RV-List message posted by: JVanLaak@aol.com I have to jump in here, as people appear to be repeating an error made by many journalists who fly with demo pilots. The spinning characteristics of any plane can be drastically different depending on where the CG is. Demo pilots fly these stalls with forward CG to show that the airplane is super safe, but it does not represent the whole picture. A friend has an 8 that has a very forward empty CG, to the point where he carries 30 lbs of sand in the baggage area to get comfortable landings solo. It is very benign spinning with that CG. Put a 200 lbder in the back and it would probably spin like a top and take some positive effort to recover. I had a wonderful RV-4 that I thoroughly enjoyed, but which I had to be extra cautious with when I had a passenger over 130 lbs or so. It was built light, with 150 hp, wood prop, etc, but the CG really went aft with a big pax. Jim Van Laak Currently RV-6 N79RL ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 12:14:08 PM PST US From: "Dean" Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" Dean I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider that torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the fastener. Dean Van Winkle Retired Aeronautical Engineer RV-9A Fuselage/Finish ----- Original Message ----- From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > >Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US > >From: Sam Buchanan > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks. > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 12:40:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" See I knew an ole timer would jump in here:) So is it your position Doug that this was good training he gave me? This 'falling leaf' deal? Boy did the tail shake. I could easily master this in the Aeronca Chief, but it is a B!@#ch in the RV. Damn thing just wants to snap around and keeping the wings level is a bear with this technique as I described. I do think that what it taught me was how to get the right amount of opp. rudder in for the amount of snap induced. If you put too much in, around she'd go the other way... and so forth. Cool exercise though. Fun, scary at first, sometimes violent, always hard. Mike Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Mike, I can't get any work done today.... The maneuver you described is exactly a falling leaf. This is a GREAT training exercise and it is a great way to enter a spin. It was used extensively in WWII to teach using the rudder to raise the stalled wing, not the aileron. Most pilots will raise the stalled wing with the aileron and in most spam can type airplanes, it works, but it is still a bad idea. The problem is if the left wing stalls, starts to fall and you put in right aileron, you have increased the angle of attack on the wing that is stalling and again, in some airplanes, i.e., T-6 or a DC-3, you will instantly fill the windshield with the earth. Suppose you are turning base to final. You overshoot and in an effort not to exceed 30 deg bank angle like your instructor taught, you push the nose around with the rudder. This is a skidding turn, and the way you know it is a skidding turn is the ball is "up." In a slip, the ball will be down. In a skid the inside wing will stall first because it is moving slower than the outside wing. If you try to raise it with aileron, increasing the angle of attack on the stalled wing, you may impact the ground upside down, if you raise it with the rudder, you just might crash right side up, a much more survivable scenario..... Or better yet, recover from the stall as the wings are passing through level and fly away. Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:36 PM PST US From: "Tom Gummo" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > neddle and hold > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > Dave ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:20 PM PST US From: "RV_8 Pilot" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" Mines (1.5# halon) under the right canopy rail, beside the pilots seat. Bryan >From: "Larry Bowen" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:45:34 -0500 (EST) > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > >Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my little halon >extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? > >- >Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. >Larry@BowenAero.com >http://BowenAero.com > >Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > > > > On a lighter note, same topic. > > This past weekend, a friend was doing some acro in his 8. A loose fire > > extinguisher bottle was very unfriendly to his canopy. > > Pics here. > > http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/doggscanopy > > This is a very important lesson folks. This could have been his head. > > Mike > > Do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:01:55 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) well, he would have flunked for his mispelling of the boldface on "Controld". you don't ge to fly today. stick around for corrective action.... -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Fenstermacher" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > > neddle and hold > > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > > > Dave > > > > > > well, he would have flunked for his mispelling of the boldface on "Controld". you don't ge to fly today. stick around for corrective action.... -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) Tom Gummo Apple Valley, CA Harmon Rocket-II do not archive http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" To: Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery -- RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Throttle(s) - Idle Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. Stick - abruptly full aft and hold &g t; Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn neddle and hold Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder Controld neutral and recover from the dive. That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? Dave gest/rv-list ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:55 PM PST US From: "Doug Rozendaal" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" Mike, Old timer???? I said it is a great training maneuver, I did not say it was a great training maneuver in an RV. again, we are taking a maneuver that was invented for an airplane built like a brick bathroom and applying it to a slick little hotrod, and you will hear some of those sounds that I don't like coming from the a-- end of the airplane. ( I meant AFT you know ;-) ) Tailwinds, Doug Rozendaal > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > See I knew an ole timer would jump in here:) > > So is it your position Doug that this was good training he gave me? This > 'falling leaf' deal? Boy did the tail shake. I could easily master this > in the Aeronca Chief, but it is a B!@#ch in the RV. Damn thing just > wants to snap around and keeping the wings level is a bear with this > technique as I described. I do think that what it taught me was how to > get the right amount of opp. rudder in for the amount of snap induced. > If you put too much in, around she'd go the other way... and so forth. > Cool exercise though. Fun, scary at first, sometimes violent, always > hard. > > Mike > Do not archive. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:56 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > >See I knew an ole timer would jump in here:) > >So is it your position Doug that this was good training he gave me? This >'falling leaf' deal? Boy did the tail shake. I could easily master this >in the Aeronca Chief, but it is a B!@#ch in the RV. Damn thing just >wants to snap around and keeping the wings level is a bear with this >technique as I described. I do think that what it taught me was how to >get the right amount of opp. rudder in for the amount of snap induced. >If you put too much in, around she'd go the other way... and so forth. >Cool exercise though. Fun, scary at first, sometimes violent, always >hard. > >Mike >Do not archive. > Hi Mike! I'm going to equate an RV wing with the original Grumman Yankee (AA-1) wing ..... built for speed. The Aeronca Chief on the other hand is much like the Grumman Trainer (AA-1B .... which I have). The results of this 'falling leaf' maneuver in each airplane is the same! Being short-coupled, the AA-1 is a handful. And once the airplane gets ahead of you, and you persist is trying to tame it, it'll snap to the outside in a heartbeat. The -1B is a lot more benign. As you practice this maneuver more and more, you will find that you can sense the amount of rudder necessary to keep the wings level and prevent the snap will decrease .... and you'll be a little more harmonious with your airplane. When you do this in your RV, and you get 'ham fisted' (ham feeted?) with the rudder and it snaps, does it fly out of the snap or enter a spin? Linn ..... loves the 'carnival ride' do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > >Mike, > >I can't get any work done today.... > >The maneuver you described is exactly a falling leaf. This is a GREAT >training exercise and it is a great way to enter a spin. It was used >extensively in WWII to teach using the rudder to raise the stalled wing, >not >the aileron. Most pilots will raise the stalled wing with the aileron >and >in most spam can type airplanes, it works, but it is still a bad idea. > >The problem is if the left wing stalls, starts to fall and you put in >right >aileron, you have increased the angle of attack on the wing that is >stalling >and again, in some airplanes, i.e., T-6 or a DC-3, you will instantly >fill >the windshield with the earth. Suppose you are turning base to final. >You >overshoot and in an effort not to exceed 30 deg bank angle like your >instructor taught, you push the nose around with the rudder. This is a >skidding turn, and the way you know it is a skidding turn is the ball is > >"up." In a slip, the ball will be down. In a skid the inside wing will > >stall first because it is moving slower than the outside wing. If you >try >to raise it with aileron, increasing the angle of attack on the stalled >wing, you may impact the ground upside down, if you raise it with the >rudder, you just might crash right side up, a much more survivable >scenario..... Or better yet, recover from the stall as the wings are >passing through level and fly away. > >Tailwinds, >Doug Rozendaal > > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:31:51 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" ...and the misspelling of mispelling : ) ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > well, he would have flunked for his mispelling of the boldface on "Controld". > > you don't ge to fly today. stick around for corrective action.... > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > > > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) > > > > Tom Gummo > > Apple Valley, CA > > Harmon Rocket-II > > > > do not archive > > > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Fenstermacher" > > To: > > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > > > > > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > > > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > > > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > > > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > > > neddle and hold > > > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > > > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > > > > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > > > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > well, he would have flunked for his mispelling of the boldface on "Controld". > > you don't ge to fly today. stick around for corrective action.... > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: "Tom Gummo" > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) > > Tom Gummo > Apple Valley, CA > Harmon Rocket-II > > do not archive > > http://mysite.verizon.net/t.gummo/index.html > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Fenstermacher" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > -- RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > &g > t; Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > neddle and hold > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > Dave > > > gest/rv-list > > ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:44 PM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone Dean... The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry. The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the fastener is made of). For fasteners less then 1/4" preload shoud be 90% of material yield strength. greater then 1/4" 100% of yield strength. (Not ultimate strength) All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how tight is tight. Chris Stone RV-8 wings (one done one to go) Mech/Aero Eng. -----Original Message----- From: Dean Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" Dean I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider that torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the fastener. Dean Van Winkle Retired Aeronautical Engineer RV-9A Fuselage/Finish ----- Original Message ----- From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > >Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US > >From: Sam Buchanan > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks. > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:43:52 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Chris, Over the years I've occasionally run into instructions like "tighten til seated, then x number of turns". Auto oil filters are an example that comes to mind. Being a perfectionist, I then find myself obsessing about exactly where to begin counting. I mean, when exactly is it seated? In the end I usually give up and use the same tool as you. Steve Zicree do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Stone" Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) > --> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone > > Dean... > > The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry. > The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the fastener is made of). > For fasteners less then 1/4" preload shoud be 90% of material yield strength. greater then 1/4" 100% of yield strength. (Not ultimate strength) > > All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how tight is tight. > > > Chris Stone > RV-8 wings (one done one to go) > Mech/Aero Eng. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dean > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt Torque ) > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" > > Dean > > I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was > determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to > overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will > not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider that > torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the > fastener. > > Dean Van Winkle > Retired Aeronautical Engineer > RV-9A Fuselage/Finish > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > To: > Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > > > >Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US > > >From: Sam Buchanan > > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > > On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today > with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque > specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque > spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard > Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. > Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't > turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out > but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks. > > > > Dean Psiropoulos > > RV-6A N197DM > > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:57 PM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Bell crank --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Ken, just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very different then the 7, 8, and 9. For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube. But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching its stops. On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of the rod end. _###________________ _______________________ pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________ ____________________ # # Sorry I can't draw it better W ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 03:21:03 PM PST US From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > However forty years ago was a long time ago. :-) > > Tom Gummo ============================== Summer of '59 for some of us. Bob - Do not archive ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:06 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 02:06 PM 11/15/2004 -0800, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone > >Dean... > >The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time >reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or >not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For >small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is >generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since >the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry. Read the torque caused by the drag of the locking fastener well before the nut seats. Add that number to the specified torque. Use that total to set the fastener. > The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the > fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate > the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of > rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the > fastener is made of). This doesn't work because you also must know the material properties (and geometry) of the part being clamped. If the flange is slightly bowed, or there is a chip under the nut, or.... the compliance of the clamped part changes and the clamping force per turn changes with it. >All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how >tight is tight. It is useful to pay attention to what your wrist is telling you to be sure that the setting (and the calibration) of the torque wrench is within reason. This sort of sanity check keeps you from accidentally setting the wrench for inch-pounds instead of ft-pounds. However, relying on your wrist as the primary standard can be a big mistake when working on an airplane. You are betting your life on each "free throw". ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:21 PM PST US From: UFOBUCK@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face " ??? ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 03:45:48 PM PST US From: "Brian Denk" Subject: Re: RV-List: planes are fun, -8 spin --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" >RV_8 Pilot wrote: > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > > > >Gotta add opposite aileron with the -8 to get it to spin. Otherwise, >you'll > >just have a very fast downward spiral based upon my experience. > > >I find this interesting. I would suspect that adding aileron would >create the spiral, not the spin! Shows you what I know. As you >approach the stall (either power on or power off) and you apply full up >elevator (actually creates the stall) and then shortly after briskly >apply rudder in the direction that you want the spin ...... that should >be all you need. I suspect, and I could be terribly wrong here, is that >the stall doesn't develop or the rudder isn't that effective, I hope >you respond on-list or off because although I'll probably never spin a >-8, I'll add it to my knowledge base. >Linn ..... enjoying this thread >do not archive Any knowledge on the subject of spins is worthwhile! I think Bryan said opposite aileron, which should flatten the lateral axis of the aircraft as it spins. I never tried any aileron input during my spin testing. Just kept it simple as you mention with wings level stall, full rudder and holding the stick back hard to the stops. It did seem to protest the event, almost had to sweet talk her to get the break to happen. Whatta gal. She won't bite unless you really ask for it. :) Brian Denk RV8 N94BD RV10 '51 ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 04:03:13 PM PST US From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" > > Anyone else see irony? ================================= Oh yeah.... Even with eyes tightly closed. Bob - hoping mouth will follow suit. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 04:11:56 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be committed to wrote memory. They were TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS TUNE? WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) lucky -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face " > ??? > > > > > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be committed to wrote memory. They were TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS TUNE? WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) lucky -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, T.gummo@verizon.net writes: Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face " ??? e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:43 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" I should have added that my "calibrated wrist" is used only for things like inspection covers and instrument mounting screws. For structural stuff, I always use a nice little inch-pound torque screwdriver I got at Spruce. Rather than a click, it actually lets go at the right torque value -- works very well. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > At 02:06 PM 11/15/2004 -0800, you wrote: > >--> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone > > > >Dean... > > > >The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time > >reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or > >not? Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For > >small fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is > >generally as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since > >the spec does not usually indicate lubed or dry. > > Read the torque caused by the drag of the locking fastener well > before the nut seats. Add that number to the specified torque. Use that > total to set the fastener. > > > The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the > > fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate > > the amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of > > rotation. (Whith the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the > > fastener is made of). > > This doesn't work because you also must know the material > properties (and geometry) of the part being clamped. If the flange is > slightly bowed, or there is a chip under the nut, or.... the compliance of > the clamped part changes and the clamping force per turn changes with it. > > >All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how > >tight is tight. > It is useful to pay attention to what your wrist is telling you to > be sure that the setting (and the calibration) of the torque wrench is > within reason. This sort of sanity check keeps you from accidentally > setting the wrench for inch-pounds instead of ft-pounds. However, relying > on your wrist as the primary standard can be a big mistake when working on > an airplane. You are betting your life on each "free throw". > > ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:39 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" Go to the "word pad" "windows word" or wherever you type up letters etc on your computer. Go to the top and look at the options. See the B - I - U boxes ? The "B" is a bold face option. BOLD FACE are check list items that you must know intowtow, ver batum (OK so I don't spell french very well, & don't care to learn). ABORT is one example. Throttle: Idle, Chute Deployed, Hook Down. This was for an F-4. KABONG 8*) ----- Original Message ----- From: , > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > >> Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face > " > ??? Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:34 PM PST US From: "Dr. Kevin Leathers" Subject: Re: RV-List: 8A looks like What? --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Kevin Leathers" Hello Listers, Last time at Van's Homecoming, I overheard someone say that, to him, the RV-8A resembles some sort of military aircraft. I can not remember what he said it looked like. Do any of you know what he may have been talking about?? Doc > > ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:03 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 11/15/04 5:09:27 PM US Eastern Standard Time, rv8iator@earthlink.net writes: > All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how > tight is tight. > > > Chris Stone > RV-8 wings (one done one to go) > Mech/Aero Eng. > > I have to agree, Chris. How many times have you heard of a bolt breaking because it was tightened a little too tight, or even a lot too tight? I mean, I have been working on cars for 45 years, and I have (almost) never seen it happen, at least its extremely rare. I have seen Piper Cherokee landing gear (oleo to spar) bolts break, possibly because of overtorque. But, you usually strip the threads, or break the bolt at assembly time if its ever going to happen. I think the bolt torque specs for A/C are EXTREMEL.Y conservative -- to the extent that they sometimes loosen because they aren't tight enough. (I'm thinking of my wheel fairings. I overtorqued them, and they haven't loosened since.) Now, on control surface Heim joints and pushrods, etc., and on almost all engine fasteners, I use a torque wrench -- and use the conservative specs. Of course, experience does matter. You have to use some judgment or you will get into trouble. Just my opinion. Worth only about $.02. Do not archive. Dan Hopper RV-7A N766DH (Flying since July -- 67 hours) ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:32 PM PST US From: "Bob Barrow" Subject: RV-List: Orndorff videos available (Australia) --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" I know a guy who spent Aust$100k building an RV and it was a dog because he refused to spend $200 getting some decent construction videos. If you live in Australia and want to build a nice plane to protect your investment you might like to consider purchasing the following PAL Orndorff videos (the best available) that I have now finished with. They are all the current editions and are for both the taildragger and nose-wheel models. RV7/8 Prepunched Empennage Construction: A 2 tape series. 3.0 hours. RV7/8 Wing Construction: A 2 tape series. 3.5 hours. Sheet Metal Tools and Construction: 1.0 hour. Watching a Lycoming Engine Rebuild: 1.0 hour. I'll sell the lot for Aust$150 and you'll save 25% off retail, plus you'll save GST, freight, clearance, and lead time. For further info on these videos you can go to the Ordorff site at http://www.fly-gbi.com/ Contact me directly at bobbarrow@o... I'm in Melbourne, Australia. Regards Bob Barrow ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:17 PM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: Re: RV-List: 8A looks like What? --> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" Mentor T-34 to me... ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:27 PM PST US From: Daniel Clark Subject: Re: RV-List: Bell crank --> RV-List message posted by: Daniel Clark Wheeler, still a pretty good drawing with ASCII text ! Daniel Clark Wheeler North wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Ken, > >just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very >different then the 7, 8, and 9. > >For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than >in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a >folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube. > >But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end >about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach >point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so >arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching >its stops. > >On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of >the rod end. > > _###________________ >_______________________ >pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >_______________________ > ____________________ > # > # > >Sorry I can't draw it better > >W > > > > ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 05:19:08 PM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that was fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back. Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder. Jim Oke Wpg, MB do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > >> --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com >> >> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, >> T.gummo@verizon.net writes: >> >> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. >> >> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold >> Face " >> ??? >> >> >> >> >> >> > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face > " > ??? > > > e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:40 PM PST US From: "Stein Bruch" Subject: Re: RE: RV-List: Edge Gromment? --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" I tell you what. I'm WAYYY behind on updating the website, so if you tell me how much (in feet) you want and just place the rest of the order, we'll just throw some in for free (assuming it's not hundreds of feet). Let me know if that works for you. Cheers, Stein. ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Bobby Hester" >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bobby Hester" > >Great I have a few other things I need to order from you so this will work out great :-) >I checked your site before I posted, I thought you would have it. I'll wait till it's on your site. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Stein Bruch" >> To: >> Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2004 21:41 (CDT) >> Subject: RE: RV-List: Edge Gromment? >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" >> >> It's officially called Grommet strip, but in the airline world its mainly >> referred to as "caterpillar tracks". I have a bunch of it, and will have it >> for sale on my website hopefully by tomorrow (or sometime this week when I >> have a spare minute). The stuff from ACS is high $$ (but is fine quality), >> and really more than is necessary for the job. The plain nylon stuff is >> cheap, easy to use, and I have it in 2 thicknesses. Check for it on my >> website this week. >> >> Cheers, >> Stein Bruch >> >> http://www.steinair.com >> >> do not archive >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bobby Hester >> To: RV7and7A; RV-List >> Subject: RV-List: Edge Gromment? >> >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester >> >> Ok I know I just read about it last week and now I can't find anything >> about it. What is that Edge Gromment material called and were does one >> get it? I found something in Spruce but not what I was looking for. The >> plastic edgeing that goes around sharp edges to protect wires. >> >> -- >> Surfing the Web from Hopkinsville, KY >> Visit my web site at: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ >> RV7A Slowbuild wings-QB Fuse :-) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >------- >Surfing the web from Hopkinsville, KY >RV7A web site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite > > ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:36 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question - DUMB QUESTION --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" I guess my original post was really too dumb to get a reply but I'm serious. Probably shows inexperience but if the big deal is aerodynamic forces on the canopy creating a "can't get out" situation and assuming you aren't in a violent spin/tumble,.... why couldn't you just grab the removable passenger side stick and beat the plexi canopy until it gives up. If it breaks as easy as everyone says, a couple of good licks and who knows where the broken pieces go but there will be a hole to scoot through. I would guess that if you broke out the top of a slider, it would ruin the shape and maybe allow you to slide it open if it didn't completely warp it as it blew off the rest of the rear plexi. It would certainly equalize the pressures pretty quick. (I know broken glass, etc. is a hazard but this is sort of a last resort isn't it?) Now to put it in a more plausible scenario but still a stretch, there was a post on one of the lists about an oil leak covering the windscreen and having no forward or side visibility. Read three examples this year due to leaky CS prop crank seal. With the tip-up, I'm not sure what I would do but with the slider, I THINK(?) I might try to break a hole in the rear slider part leaving the windscreen intact and allowing a look out the side. Just considering the options. What else would work better ? Pleading ignorance in advance, but it looks to me that you can open any of them in flight assuming you want out bad enough and the tumbling hasn't beat you senseless. Bill Schlatterer 7a QB fuse/panel -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" >Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US >From: Sam Buchanan >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question >However, the ONLY way to prove otherwise is for somebody to actually jettison the canopy and successfully jump! Until >that happens, all we can do is speculate on the odds of being able to actually egress from a flying tip-up RV. I've got an idea Sam. A while back Van retired one of the very early RV-6s they had used as a demo ride for years. "Ol Blue" as she was affectionately called, is still tucked away in his personal hangar. Maybe we could get him to sacrifice her for a real world experiment on this canopy jettison thing!? You'd have to find someone willing to put thier tush on the line to do the test (one time only). Hmmm??? Naaaa..... too risky! Stilllllllll........ :-) On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver wouldn't turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM ________________________________ Message 63 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:58 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > I have to agree, Chris. How many times have you heard of a > bolt breaking > because it was tightened a little too tight, or even a lot > too tight? I mean, I > have been working on cars for 45 years, and I have (almost) > never seen it > happen, at least its extremely rare. Torque specs are generally not designed to prevent bolts from breaking, but to minimize the chances of fatigue failure. After all, if you break it during torquing, no big deal, it is simply replaced. And, if it isn't broken during the torquing step, it is very unlikely to simply break in use (ignoring fatigue). However, in most situations, there is an optimum clamping force which maximizes the fatigue life of the bolt. Too tight or too loose and fatigue life is reduced. Keep this in mind as you torque down the empennage mounting bolts. It is also good practice to overtorque the bolt a little initially to crunch dust and small debris in the joint, then back off the bolt and properly torque. Alex Peterson RV6-A 552 hours Maple Grove, MN http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________ Message 64 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:11 PM PST US From: "Ken Simmons" Subject: Re: RV-List: Bell crank/Trutrak --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Simmons" Wheeler, Thanks for the info. I think you're exactly right when referring to the old RV-3 wing. The new B wing for the RV-3 is more like the 7/8 though. That's one reason you can get it quickbuild. The RV-4 still doesn't have any QB options. That's why I listed the part number for the bell crank. I was hoping someone could check their 7/8 plans to see if they were the same. The part number again is Wd-421-L(R). I have noticed one thing that will affect installing the Trutrak. The brackets that hold the bell crank are oriented differently on the 3B wing. Both of the brackets mount to the spar facing down. I imagine this is due to the shorter spar height/wing thickness. This means the one angle attaching the servo to the upper bracket would have to be modified. Thanks. Ken ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: Wheeler North >--> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North > >Ken, > >just to confirm Dan's comment. The 3, 4, and 6 aileron bell crank is very >different then the 7, 8, and 9. > >For one its a first class lever, and the other pivots on one end rather than >in the middle. For two, its double plate aluminum crank on a bearing vs a >folded 4130 steel assembly welded to a bushing tube. > >But in either case a drilled hole should allow one to bolt to the rod end >about the same. The key is the lever length from the pivot to the attach >point. It should be similar to that of the servo lever pivot length, but so >arranged that the ailerons make their full swing prior to the servo reaching >its stops. > >On my bell crank I laminated aluminum plates like this to trap both sides of >the rod end. > > _###________________ >_______________________ >pvt brng _______ rod end>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >_______________________ > ____________________ > # > # > >Sorry I can't draw it better > >W > ________________________________ Message 65 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:06 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Lucky, You guys got me remembering, and I just happened to have on my bookshelf the Flight Crew Checklist for both the T-37B (dated August 64) and the T-38A, revised through 1 April 65. Big surprise: There is no spin recovery procedure in my Flight Crew Checklist for the T-37, normal or emergency procedures. I guess they knew we would have a hard time finding the page while spinning. (Yes, I know: we had to have every emergency procedure committed to memory.) There's Two Engine Failure During Takeoff (After Airborne), Canopy Unlocked, Runaway Trim, and many more, but no spin recovery. I remember it pretty much like others have mentioned: Stick full back, full rudder in opposite direction of spin, then slam the stick full forward and ease it back to recover from the dive. Wasn't that it? I'm sure the checklist didn't say "slam", but the IP's did. Now, about the ejection procedure you mentioned: I'm sure you are referring to the T-38. My checklist reads like this, all bold face & caps: EJECTION 1. LEGBRACES - RAISE 2. CATAPULT FIRING TRIGGERS - SQUEEZE OK, now back to reality. Do not archive Terry RV-8A wiring -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of lucky Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be committed to wrote memory. They were TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS TUNE? WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) lucky ________________________________ Message 66 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:45 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) it's what I remember for the tweet which did have a rocket motor (or so they told us). -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke > > Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that was > fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back. > Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder. > > Jim Oke > Wpg, MB > > do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lucky" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be > > committed to wrote memory. They were > > > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > > > lucky > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > >> > >> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > >> T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > >> > >> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > >> > >> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold > >> Face " > >> ??? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be > > committed to wrote memory. They were > > > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > > > lucky > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > > > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face > > " > > ??? > > > > > > e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > > > > > > > > > > > > it's what I remember for the tweet which did havea rocket motor (or so they told us). -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that was fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back. Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder. Jim Oke Wpg, MB do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" To: Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery -- RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be committed to wrote memory. They were TYPED IN BOLD F ACE AND ALL CAPS. HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS TUNE? WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) lucky -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, T.gummo@verizon.net writes: Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face " ??? &g t; All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be committed to wrote memory. They were TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO REMEMBER THIS TUNE? WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) lucky -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, T.gummo@verizon.net writes: Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face " ??? e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list s ________________________________ Message 67 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:49 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Did you just std AN3 bolts? The tail isn't tearing up the seat-back? Thx, - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Randy Lervold [mailto:randy@romeolima.com] > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:49 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" > > > Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my > little halon > > extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? > > > > - > > Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. > > Larry@BowenAero.com > > http://BowenAero.com > > > Larry, this worked well for me... > http://www.rv-8.com/Pictures/Mvc-529x.jpg > > I could easily extract it by reaching behind my back. I > checked by practicing in flight. > > Randy Lervold > > > ========= > ========= > Matronics Forums. > ========= > ========= > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 68 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:26 PM PST US From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" Good one, but I have map pockets on each side in that area. Thx, - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com > -----Original Message----- > From: RV_8 Pilot [mailto:rv_8pilot@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 3:55 PM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers > > --> RV-List message posted by: "RV_8 Pilot" > > Mines (1.5# halon) under the right canopy rail, beside the > pilots seat. > > Bryan > > >From: "Larry Bowen" > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com > >To: rv-list@matronics.com > >Subject: RE: RV-List: Spins, canopies & extingushers > >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 12:45:34 -0500 (EST) > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > > >Speaking of which, I haven't found a good spot to mount my > little halon > >extinguisher yet. Can anyone recommend a place in the 8/8A? > > > >- > >Larry Bowen, RV-8, 23.5 Hrs. > >Larry@BowenAero.com > >http://BowenAero.com > > > >Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) said: > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > > > > > > > On a lighter note, same topic. > > > This past weekend, a friend was doing some acro in his 8. A loose > > > fire extinguisher bottle was very unfriendly to his canopy. > > > Pics here. > > > http://www.mstewart.net/deletesoon/doggscanopy > > > This is a very important lesson folks. This could have > been his head. > > > Mike > > > Do not archive > > > > > > > > > > > > > ========= > ========= > Matronics Forums. > ========= > ========= > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 69 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:18 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer steve zicree wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" > >Jerry, > >Why are you even commenting on my open and honest response to ANOTHER lister >regarding his impression of this forum? > Because it is an open forum? >In spite of my "little feelings" >being hurt, I have gone back and looked at every post I've ever made to this >list trying to see just what you might perceive as "negative", and see >nothing until the personal attacks, condescension, and sarcasm from yourself >and others began. > Try the post where you disagree with someone that said stall warnings were not needed.....sarcasm? >Is standing up to you considered negative? I have also >received upwards of a dozen off-list responses voicing opinions similar to >the one expressed in Jack's email. If my truthful remarks about possibly >abandoning my project speaks volumes about me, then what of the hundreds of >builders who've had similar doubts over the course of their projects for >equally trivial reasons? > You know about hundreds. :-) > Not you though, right superman? > RIGHT!!!! > The fact that the >people on the list are "faceless" emboldens many to take cheap shots, but I >try not to operate that way. As I said, I reviewed all of my comments and >took "a look in the mirror" because it's the right thing to do. Have you? > > Everyday >Steve Zicree > > > > C ya, Jerry (AKA superman, is that anything like being someones Daisey?) do not archive PS If you ever get up this way give a shout and we will go flying my RV-6 :-) ________________________________ Message 70 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:29 PM PST US From: "Bob Barrow" Subject: RV-List: RV7 spin recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" It would appear that the RV8 has reasonable spin recovery but what about the RV7 and 7A. Has anyone spun theirs. It is obvious that in the first instance Vans were worried about the spin recovery on the RV7 and eventually transposed the larger RV9 rudder onto the 7 to give it greater rudder authority. Any feedback on whether it worked. Any one out there spun both a 7 and 8 and can compare. Or what about a 6 and 7 (with the new rudder). ________________________________ Message 71 ____________________________________ Time: 08:49:19 PM PST US From: "Jack Ford" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" No flame, I'm an old construction worker, and I know all the words that start with mother and son and many other technical construction terms. I am anything but thin skinned. I understand the attitude, I share it. Telling me I'm a dodo does not enlighten me-I am already aware of that. KING'S X. Call me anything but late for breakfast. I'll take care of the decision issue. I really didn't make up my mind, I was just pissed. Nobody's indicting anybody (at least not today). This thread has been very enlightening from many points of view, particularly related to stalls and spins. And attitudes toward that. Sam, Keith says you're a good guy, and I believe him. I have also heard from some folks offline who were genuinely concerned, and I wish to thank them again. Now, I have to finish up a job so I can decide to order foam and glass or an empennage kit (I'll fly about .05 lifetimes sooner with the RV7A). A: There are no stupid questions. B:Try to get along. Thanks, Keith Jack Ford ----- Original Message ----- From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spins and canopies > --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" > > Mr. Ford, (and Mr. Zicree) > > <> And I was going to stay out of this and just watch..... Oh well. > Go ahead... flame away, I can handle it. > > Keith Hughes > RV-6 > Denver > > > do not archive > ----- Original Message ----- > > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jack Ford" > >> > >> > >> The status conciousness of some of the members of this list in their > >> impatience with you has tipped the balance to the COZY. > >> I'm going to stay on this list because some of these folks know something > >> about airplanes. > >> Good luck! > >> Jack Ford > >> > > ________________________________ Message 72 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:46 PM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Nope. At least in 1987 it was still ballistic. A good friend of mine was a Tweet IP ( I was a T-38 FAIP) and he swore that he'd pop the canopy and dive out before he ever let the "boom bucket" have a crack at his spine. While I was at Vance, three guys all punched out of Tweets. All three walked away with minor scrapes, so maybe it was a bad rap. I never wanted to find out. Keith do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > it's what I remember for the tweet which did have a rocket motor (or so > they told us). > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke >> >> Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that >> was >> fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back. >> Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder. >> >> Jim Oke >> Wpg, MB >> >> do not archive >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "lucky" >> To: >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery >> >> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) >> > >> > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to >> > be >> > committed to wrote memory. They were >> > >> > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. >> > >> > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO >> > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? >> > >> > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? >> > >> > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. >> > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. >> > >> > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) >> > >> > lucky >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >> > >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com >> >> >> >> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, >> >> T.gummo@verizon.net writes: >> >> >> >> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. >> >> >> >> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold >> >> Face " >> >> ??? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be >> > committed to wrote memory. They were >> > >> > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. >> > >> > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO >> > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? >> > >> > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? >> > >> > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. >> > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. >> > >> > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) >> > >> > lucky >> > -------------- Original message -------------- >> > >> > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com >> > >> > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, >> > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: >> > >> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. >> > >> > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold >> > Face >> > " >> > ??? >> > >> > >> > e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list >> > >> > >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> > > it's what I remember for the tweet which did havea rocket motor (or so > they told us). > > > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke > > Sounds like the old T-33 seat. The kind with the 20mm cannon shell that > was > fired to rapidly shove the seat up the rails at some risk to your back. > Later seats with a rocket motor were a lot kinder. > > Jim Oke > Wpg, MB > > do not archive > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "lucky" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > -- RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD F > ACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold > Face " > ??? > > &g > t; > > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold > Face > " > ??? > > > e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > > > s > > > ________________________________ Message 73 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:03 PM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Terry, Holy Cow!!!!! That is an old one (sorry... not to imply that you are old). They got rid of the leg braces and the triggers a looooong time ago! The leg braces were automatic on the new seats, and they figured out that at T-38 speeds, the triggers wasted valuable time. The new(??) Bold Face was "HANDGRIPS-RAISE". Something I could remember. A side note (I'm sure no one cares.. but I'm bored): I used to point out to my student that if you were at 300 kts (pattern speed) at zero sink rate and inverted, you could eject and still be in the envelope. I couldn't ever get one to try it, tho. Keith do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" > > Lucky, > > You guys got me remembering, and I just happened to have on my bookshelf > the > Flight Crew Checklist for both the T-37B (dated August 64) and the T-38A, > revised through 1 April 65. Big surprise: There is no spin recovery > procedure in my Flight Crew Checklist for the T-37, normal or emergency > procedures. I guess they knew we would have a hard time finding the page > while spinning. (Yes, I know: we had to have every emergency procedure > committed to memory.) There's Two Engine Failure During Takeoff (After > Airborne), Canopy Unlocked, Runaway Trim, and many more, but no spin > recovery. I remember it pretty much like others have mentioned: > > Stick full back, full rudder in opposite direction of spin, then slam the > stick full forward and ease it back to recover from the dive. Wasn't that > it? I'm sure the checklist didn't say "slam", but the IP's did. > > Now, about the ejection procedure you mentioned: I'm sure you are > referring > to the T-38. My checklist reads like this, all bold face & caps: > > EJECTION > 1. LEGBRACES - RAISE > 2. CATAPULT FIRING TRIGGERS - SQUEEZE > > OK, now back to reality. > > Do not archive > > Terry > RV-8A wiring > > ________________________________ Message 74 ____________________________________ Time: 11:20:35 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Another often overlooked consequence of over-torqueing a bolt is what is sometimes referred to as "waisting", where the bolt diameter actually reduces in the middle due to the excessive stretch. It's probably not a huge issue on airframe components, but can cause problems in things where close tolerance between bolt and hole is desired. Stuff like engine rod bearing caps, case half bolts, etc. I think the only place on my airframe where this might be an issue is in the wing attach hardware. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) > --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > > I have to agree, Chris. How many times have you heard of a > > bolt breaking > > because it was tightened a little too tight, or even a lot > > too tight? I mean, I > > have been working on cars for 45 years, and I have (almost) > > never seen it > > happen, at least its extremely rare. > > Torque specs are generally not designed to prevent bolts from breaking, but > to minimize the chances of fatigue failure. After all, if you break it > during torquing, no big deal, it is simply replaced. And, if it isn't > broken during the torquing step, it is very unlikely to simply break in use > (ignoring fatigue). However, in most situations, there is an optimum > clamping force which maximizes the fatigue life of the bolt. Too tight or > too loose and fatigue life is reduced. Keep this in mind as you torque > down the empennage mounting bolts. It is also good practice to overtorque > the bolt a little initially to crunch dust and small debris in the joint, > then back off the bolt and properly torque. > > Alex Peterson > RV6-A 552 hours > Maple Grove, MN > > http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ > > ________________________________ Message 75 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:05 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: RV-List: And now for something completely different --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" So here's one for pilots of all ages (even gray hairs), experience levels (students too), and political leanings (except maybe Nader-ites). I've often wondered, and been asked by many, why the safety record for G.A. is so much worse than that for commercial carriers. We constantly hear that, statistically speaking, flying on an airliner is safer than brushing your teeth or what have you, but flying in a private aircraft is much more dangerous than even driving your car. I've casually looked over the numbers and it is very true, no matter how you slice it, that G.A. is much more dangerous than airline travel. I know that one reason is quality of training and another is probably the repetitive nature of commercial aviation operations. I think safety systems and redundancy are also probably superior in jets, but those aircraft are also significantly more complex and unforgiving than light aircraft. I'm mostly looking for some brainstorming on this topic with my goal being to take whatever I can from the airlines and make it mine. They are obviously doing something that we as a group are not, and I'd like to learn from their success. I see light planes crash on tv almost weekly, and can barely remember the last time an air carrier lost one. In my experience, pilots typically treat each accident as a unique event and are satisfied once the direct cause is known; I'm trying to see the bigger picture if possible. Steve Zicree