---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 11/17/04: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:13 AM - Re: Not quite so self locking nut plates (Jim Jewell) 2. 02:42 AM - [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? (Matt Dralle) 3. 04:05 AM - Re: finishing up sequence of events? Part II (LarryRobertHelming) 4. 05:07 AM - Re: Not quite so self locking nut plates (Charlie Kuss) 5. 05:38 AM - Re: Pitot Options (George Neal E Capt AU/PC) 6. 05:55 AM - [Fw: SEMINAR ANNOUCEMENTS AND DATES] (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 7. 06:20 AM - Re: Pitot Options (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 8. 06:31 AM - Re: Pitot Options (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 9. 06:36 AM - Re: [Fw: SEMINAR ANNOUCEMENTS AND DATES] (Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club) 10. 08:11 AM - Re: ( Now Bolt Torque ) (Christopher Stone) 11. 08:28 AM - For Sale (John Furey) 12. 09:43 AM - Re: Forced Landing. (long) (David Carter) 13. 10:15 AM - Re: Forced Landing. (long) (Bob 1) 14. 10:16 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Jeff Dowling) 15. 10:27 AM - Re: Spin Recovery (Jeff Dowling) 16. 11:26 AM - Old Timers (Wheeler North) 17. 11:32 AM - ...Something Different (Jim Duckett) 18. 11:57 AM - Torque (Wheeler North) 19. 01:29 PM - Re: ...Something Different (steve zicree) 20. 01:30 PM - spin again (Jeff Dowling) 21. 02:23 PM - Re: For Sale (Peter Laurence) 22. 02:23 PM - Wing root mods (steve zicree) 23. 03:07 PM - Re: Torque (Bill Dube) 24. 04:21 PM - Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A (Gerald Richardson) 25. 04:23 PM - No RV7 spin (Bob Barrow) 26. 04:30 PM - Re: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 27. 04:38 PM - Re: For Sale (John Furey) 28. 05:06 PM - Re: Torque (steve zicree) 29. 05:08 PM - Re: No RV7 spin (Larry Pardue) 30. 06:25 PM - Re: Wing root mods (glaesers) 31. 06:28 PM - Re: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A () 32. 06:54 PM - Re: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A (Scott VanArtsdalen) 33. 07:20 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (David Fenstermacher) 34. 07:36 PM - Re: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A (David Schaefer) 35. 07:44 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (rv6tc) 36. 07:57 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (David Fenstermacher) 37. 08:06 PM - Re: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A (Scott VanArtsdalen) 38. 08:36 PM - Re: No RV7 spin (Skylor Piper) 39. 09:33 PM - Re: Lead counter weights (HCRV6@aol.com) 40. 10:07 PM - Re: Lead counter weights (JOHN STARN) 41. 10:09 PM - Re: No RV7 spin (Dan Checkoway) 42. 11:33 PM - Re: Spin Recovery (Terry Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:13:46 AM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Not quite so self locking nut plates --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi Brian, It takes a somewhat deft touch to run a tap part way through them, but done right some of the self locking feature can be removed from these little screw ruining nut plates. If the tapping process eliminates the self locking feature? When installing the screws an application of Fuel Lube or something similar will protect against corrosion as well as make the screws somewhat less likely to back out. My opinion; In most applications these units are not all that reliant on the self locking feature anyway. Keep on building, Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: RV-List: Not quite so self locking nut plates > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" > > I have and they are still pretty tight. Seems kind of defeating the > purpose > also to make a self locking nut so tight that you have to lubricate it to > make it less self locking. I have also tried to un-oval them in a vise > and > that works when you get it just right. > > I do have some that are not quite as squashed into the oval shape that > work > great, but I have no idea where they came from. I imagine I just need to > get the right brand, but none of them have a manufacturer written on them. > > Brian Kraut > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > www.engalt.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:42:16 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: [PLEASE READ] - Why Do I Have A Fund Raiser Each Year? --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, I was thinking that perhaps I should explain why I have a Fund Raiser and also take the opportunity to express why I think the List Services here provide a far better experience than the commercial equivalents. I use the List Fund Raiser each year to offset the costs involved with running a high performance email list site such as this one. With the annual support from the List members through the PBS-like Fund Raiser, I have found I can run the entire site without having to inflect any of the members with those annoying banner ads flashing up all the time trying to sell Toner Cartridge Refills or other garbage nobody wants or needs. From the comments I've received over the years regarding the Lists, the great majority of the members really appreciate the non-commercialism of my List systems and don't mind my 'go-team-go' banter once a year to encourage members to support the Lists. I believe that the Lists services that I provide here offer a great many benefits over the commercial equivalents in a number of ways. The first feature I believe to be particularly significant is that you *cannot* receive a computer v*rus from any of my Lists directly. I've been on a few other List servers and have been unfortunate enough to download infected files people have innocently or not-so-innocently included with their posts. This just can't happen with my Lists; each incoming message is filtered and attachments stripped off prior to posting. I provide a Photo and File Share feature that allows members to share files and bitmaps with other members and everyone can be assured that these files will be prescanned for any sort of v*rus before they are posted. Safe and simple. Also, with this photo and file sharing technique, the Archives don't get loaded up with a huge amounts of bitmap "data" that slows the Archive Search times. Another feature of this system is the extensive List Archives that are available for download, browsing, and searching. The Archives go all the way back to the very beginning of each List and with the super fast Search Engine, the huge size of the Archives is a non-issue in quickly finding the data you're looking for. Another feature of the Archives, in my opinion, is that they have been primarily stripped of all the useless email header garbage that seems to build up in a typical email thread. I have received an extremely positive response from Listers regarding the List Browse feature and the consensus is that the format and ease of use is outstanding. Members report that having the previous 7 days worth of messages on line for easy browsing and sorting is hugely beneficial. And again, as with the real time distribution of List email, the messages are stripped of all the unnecessary email headers and potentially dangerous v*ruses. I've been running email Lists and services under the matronics.com domain since about 1989 starting with RV-List and 30 guys who I knew and who where also building RVs. It has grown into well over 50 different aviation-related Email Lists and an associated web site that receives over 13,000,000 hits each year!! Additionally, the List email system forwards well over 32,000,000 (yes, that's 32 MILLION) email messages to subscribers each year! With all the dot.bombs these days, I think there's a lot of value in supporting a service that has gone the long haul and is still providing and improving a high quality service at a price that's nearly free. I have to admit running these Lists is a labor of love and I hope it shows in the quality of the experience that you receive when you get a List Email Message, Search the Archives, or use the List Browser. The Lists will be here for a long time to come. If you just want to lurk a while for free, that's great and I encourage you to do so. If you use, appreciate, and receive value from these Lists, then please support them during the Annual List Fund Raiser! The SSL Secure Contribution Web Site: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you, Matt Dralle Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:48 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? Part II --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" Subject: RV-List: finishing up sequence of events? Part II > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > OK, it's been a few months since this thread made its rounds. > > I have all the FWF stuff. > > I have the Engine mounted. I have the starter, governor, and exhaust stacks mounted. > > I don't have any of the sensors installed but have them. (((((I would look at the exhausts and consider removing them and drilling for the EGT probes if you have those sensors. I'd position and drill these probes so they are on the inside/under and not outside of the rocker arm cover line. As you do this, be thinking about access for future maintenance.)))))). > > What's the smartest way to finish up between baffling, cowl, engine related sensors, panel and top skin, baggage door? (((((((((((( I pretty much followed the manual on these. They have to be done somewhat together. You want all electronics done before riveting on the top skin and the cowling and baffle must be done before then also. Top Skin is last. You could fit the cowling first however without the baffle first installed. No harm in doing that before the baffles. Then make a first fit of the baffling. You will have to cut baffle down after you find out how much when you reinstall the upper cowling. The engine sensors, beside the inside location EGT, could be installed later after baffle is complete.))))))))) > > I'm thinking that since some of the sensors will have to be removed to do the baffling work then I should probably stop what I'm doing as far as hanging more stuff on the engine, do the cowl and then the baffle then pick back up. OL, I don't have the prop yet but that shouldn't be a big deal, right? (((((((( Not having prop is no big deal. You need to determine how to simulate the prop extension so you can fit the cowling correctly. There should be stuff in the archives on this. I had a CS prop and those deminsions/instrctions worked for me that I found in the archives. Your prop type may be different.))))))))))) > > What say you folks past this stage? (((((((((You have come a long way Lucky. You got some ways to go still. Keep after it.))))))))) > > Thanks, > Lucky (((((((Larry in Indiana with SunSeeker))))))) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:07:46 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Not quite so self locking nut plates --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Brian, Stripping the head off of #4 and #6 Phillips pan head screws is a common problem. As these fasteners age, often the shank of #4 and #6 screws will break off during removal. Early in my project, an A&P, IA friend (he also built an RV4), recommended that I substitute #8 nutplates and screws for the places that Vans uses #6. The rivet hole pattern is the same for #6 and #8 nutplates, so there is no problem with doing this on the newer pre-punched kits. The #8 screws are more durable. Use Boelube, wax or NeverSeize on the threads of your screws and dip the tip of a high quality screw driver in valve lapping compound, prior to installing the screw for the first time will do wonders for you. Charlie Kuss PS If you are a "low drag" freak, the #8 nutplates can be ordered with all three holes dimpled. (MS21049-08K) Then you can use flush screws, as opposed to the pan head screws Vans supplies. >--> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Kraut" > >The brand of K1000 anchor nuts that Aircraft Spruce stocks take the self >locking a little to the extreme when you are using them on thin sheet metal >and with 6-32 screws. It is very hard sometimes to not strip out the head >of the screw when you can't put a lot of pressure on the screw driver to >keep from bending the metal. I have seen some others that don't quite lock >the screw as hard. Does anyone know who stocks the ones that don't lock so >hard? > >Brian Kraut >Engineering Alternatives, Inc. >www.engalt.com > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:27 AM PST US From: George Neal E Capt AU/PC Subject: RE: RV-List: Pitot Options --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC On the T-6, the pitot tube is mounted in a round tube that projects straight forward out of the leading edge out at the wingtip. >Describe "leading edge tube"< Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:59 AM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: RV-List: [Fwd: SEMINAR ANNOUCEMENTS AND DATES] --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Here are some Siminars that are being put on by Wick's. Included is a $25 certificate and free lunch... The one at the end concerns The RV empenage.Wick is building a RV8 in the back of their building and it is open for inspection to anyone who wants to stop in. Check with them first though, it may have gotten moved to Metro-East Airport, about 8 or 10 miles away. I thought someone may be interested...open the files with Adobe Acrobat . Phil WICKS ANNOUNCES THE UPCOMING SEMINARS. PLEASE OPEN THE ATTACHED PDF FILE TO VIEW OR PRINT FOR YOUR REFERENCE. HOPE TO SEE YOU THERE!! CALL EARLY FOR RESERVATIONS. THANK YOU WICKS AIRCRAFT SUPPLY 800-221-9425 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:20:25 AM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: Re: RV-List: Pitot Options --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" George Neal E Capt AU/PC wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/PC > >Listers - > > >Have any of you installed and flown with a Piper-style blade pitot? > >Or a leading edge tube, as found on the AT-6? > > >Neal > > I have a Cessna type hanging on the bottom of the 6 that is soon to fly. I have a 1/4 " tube sticking straight out from the leading edge of my Pitt's. It is only about 6 inches long. Van says these are extremely inaccurate. I can't comment on the accuracy, as it is the only thing that has ever been on it. It indicates about the same as all other Pitts of a similar model and power combination, most of which have the longer pitot-static combination tube..... I seldom look at the airspeed and have never checked it for accuracy... > > Phil ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:25 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Pitot Options --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 11/17/04 7:39:31 AM Central Standard Time, Neal.George@maxwell.af.mil writes: > On the T-6, the pitot tube is mounted in a round tube that projects > straight > forward out of the leading edge out at the wingtip. >>> Gotcha- just curious if you were talking about a heated tube here- FWIW, I relocated my pitot from underwing per plans to the outer wing rib, right on the leading edge and angled down from the chordline about 8 or 9 degrees. This was after about 110 hours and I have seen no difference in any indicated airspeed from liftoff to landing, including stall and top end. It is manually retractable and I also experimented with it at various extension lengths from about 2 to 7 inches and didn't see any difference here either. I usually pull it out about 5". I'll send ya a foto if ya want one... From The PossumWorks in TN Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:04 AM PST US From: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Subject: Re: RV-List: [Fwd: SEMINAR ANNOUCEMENTS AND DATES] --> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Phil Sisson, Litchfield Aerobatic Club" > >Here are some Siminars that are being put on by Wick's. Included is a >$25 certificate and free lunch... The one at the end concerns The RV >empenage.Wick is building a RV8 in the back of their building and it is >open for inspection to anyone who wants to stop in. Check with them >first though, it may have gotten moved to Metro-East Airport, about 8 or >10 miles away. I thought someone may be interested...open the files >with Adobe Acrobat . > >Phil > > > WICKS ANNOUNCES THE UPCOMING SEMINARS. > PLEASE OPEN THE ATTACHED PDF FILE > TO VIEW OR PRINT FOR YOUR REFERENCE. > HOPE TO SEE YOU THERE!! CALL EARLY FOR RESERVATIONS. > THANK YOU > WICKS AIRCRAFT SUPPLY > 800-221-9425 > > > sorry, the Spam blocker did its job and cut the attachments... Call the 800 number if you are interested... Phil Do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:10 AM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone Bruce... We (myself and another RV-8 builder) are building two -8s side by side in the now wet Northwest. Actually the North end of the Willamette Valley about 30 mi west of Portland, OR. We have one -8 on the gear and a quickbuild fuse waiting for the wings. I have been very pleased with the quality and precision of the fits of parts. The only problems have been self inflicted... Drilling wrong size holes, not throughly reading the instructions etc. If I had it to do over I would change the sequence of assembly of the tank z-brackets/baffle and cleco up the whole assembly to check the fit prior to drilling any holes in the Z-brackets or baffle. I had to slightly elongate (.030) the holes in the spar for the z-brackets to get a perfect fit between wing skins and tank skin since I had already drilled the holes in the z-bracket/baffle/ribs (per the instructions). Chris Stone -----Original Message----- From: BRUCE GRAY Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) --> RV-List message posted by: "BRUCE GRAY" Hey Chris, Where are you located? I myself am in the "one done one to go", on my RV8 wings. The first one went together ok no complaints but the second one is flying together with great results. I may have to put in for the fuse. kit sooner than expected. Good luck with yours. Bruce Gray RV8 Wings #81745 >From: Christopher Stone >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: ( Now Bolt Torque ) >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:06:57 -0800 (GMT-08:00) > >--> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone > >Dean... > >The bolt torque issue is one that I have always had a tough time >reconciling. Too many variables. Lubricated threads and head? Or not? >Lock nut or plain nut? Locking nut plate or not... On and on. For small >fasteners the torque required to overcome the locking fastener is generally >as much as the "published" torque value which is ambiguous since the spec >does not usually indicate lubed or dry. > The method that is consistant but tedious is to measure rotation of the >fastener head after it is seated. Knowing the pitch one can calculate the >amount of preload or tension is generated per degree of rotation. (Whith >the help of a stress/strain curve for the material the fastener is made >of). >For fasteners less then 1/4" preload shoud be 90% of material yield >strength. greater then 1/4" 100% of yield strength. (Not ultimate strength) > >All this being said... I usually go by my calibrated wrist to know how >tight is tight. > > >Chris Stone >RV-8 wings (one done one to go) >Mech/Aero Eng. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dean >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question ( Now Bolt >Torque ) > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean" > >Dean > >I was taught that the proper torque for bolts and nuts/nutplates was >determined by adding the torque spec to the amount of torque required to >overcome thread friction of the locking nut/nutplate. Otherwise you will >not attain the desired clamp-up of the fastener. Worst case: Consider >that >torque to overcome thread friction alone exceeds the torque spec for the >fastener. > >Dean Van Winkle >Retired Aeronautical Engineer >RV-9A Fuselage/Finish > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" >To: >Subject: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > > > >Time: 07:19:50 AM PST US > > >From: Sam Buchanan > > >Subject: Re: RV-List: The Real Canopy Open In Flight Question > > > > > On a more realistic note, I was installing my Odessey battery tray today >with AN3 bolts and nutplates and a question occurred to me. We have torque >specs for the regular nuts and stop nuts that we use but is there a torque >spec for a bolt that goes into a nutplate? I got out my trusty "Standard >Aircraft Handbook" but no answers there, just specs for standard type nuts. >Any thoughts on this? I just tightend the bolts till the nutdriver >wouldn't >turn anymore, since they're into nutplates they're NOT going to fall out >but, do I need to worry about torquing them? Thanks. > > > > Dean Psiropoulos > > RV-6A N197DM > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:48 AM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RV-List: For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" Sensenich 70x80 for an O-320 with fitted spinner. 280hrs. Perfect condition Complete Vacume System with Gyros, together or seperate 149 tooth Starter- Like New Heated Pitot tube- Like New Many other items John@fureychrysler.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:00 AM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Forced Landing. (long) --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" My guesses on cause are 1) carb ice (flying under an overcast at low altitude is where I got my first carb ice incident - if OAT is 65 or less, you are in "prime conditions" - you did pull on carb heat, didn't you, when it started running rough? Seems like I heard you talking about playing with the "mixture" a lot and I don't remember hearing about carb heat) and 2) fuel line heating and vaporization prior to the carb - something not shielded from exhaust heat. The other inputs of "debris" etc causing flooding due to float/valve interference are probably closer to the truth. David Carter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Zilik" Subject: RV-List: Forced Landing. (long) > --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik > > Last Saturday morning was a great day to fly. We had to dodge the low > lying thin scudd below us and the Bravo airspace above us. There was a > nice breeze from the south and at 20"/2400rpm we cruised at 185 kt > ground speed. What better flying could you have. The trip home was > another story. > > After and east takeoff (flight of 3) from GXY we turned south and chased > after a newly flying supercharge-Subie-powered RV-7. Prop to 2500 rpm, > full throttle (24.5" at 6000') and the subie in our sites. As we got > near the subie we called him up and he cranked his prop to high rpm. > That slowed our rapid gain on him but we were still closing the range. > Then my lycoming started running rough. > > I shoved the mixture in which helped but it still ran a little rough. > Leaning even a little caused the engine to roughen up more. Mixture back > in. I called lead stating I had a rough engine and could not keep up and > things were getting rougher quickly. I switched tanks, turned the boost > pump on pulled on carb heat. Nothing worked the engine was slowly dying. > Lead pointed us to a friends grass strip 6.5 miles SSE but I did not > think I would make it. (remember that nice south breeze) I was looking > at the fields and roads just in case. I checked the mags (one EI and one > mag) and it ran equally bad on both ignitions. Fuel flow was showing > approximately 14 gph. Now I'm at full throttle 2500rpm and still showing > 24.5" MP with an engine that is now starting to shake the airframe a lot > and an IAS of 130 mph down from 190 IAS in the subie chase. I'm now high > 6999' one foot below the Bravo airspace and 1500' AGL when I finally see > the grass strip just south of my position. The engine is hardly running > now. I chopped what little power I had and put 99PZ into the steepest > slip she's ever seen. This is were I messed up and I hate to admit it > but I was too fast for the short strip when I passed over the corn on > the north end. I pulled up trading airspeed for altitude and pushed the > throttle in half way. She ran smooth. I came around for another approach > with a much more manageable airspeed, brushed the standing corn on the > north with my wheel pants and landed successfully on terra firma. The > butterflies in my stomach didn't start till I had to do the go-around. > > Now some may question my next move. She ran good on the go-around so I > did a run-up, used all the available strip and swore if I was not off > the ground by the halfway point (1000')I would abort the takeoff. FTG > was 19.5 nautical from where I was with another dirt strip 10 south. I > flew at 18" 2500 rpm all the way back without any problems. A little > fast on the landing with the 16 kt crosswind but other than that it was > a uneventful flight. > > What could be wrong with 99PZ? Some history: > > Oh the engine is a Aerosport O-360-A1A, carburated swinging a Hartzell. > 9.2:1 pistons. > > Denver Jackpot air-race. > Soon after departing Rock Springs WYO at low level full throttle 2600 > rpm (97 OAT) I looked at my wife and asked her if the engine seemed > rough? It was hard to tell in the bumpy thermal air. I thought I leaned > too much so I pushed the red knob in and re-leaned and all was well. > > Jackpot to Denver via Bendover Utah. 10000 feet full throttle 2400 rpm > we just rounded the restricted airspace and turned west towards > Wendover. As we crossed the ridge the engine again ran rough, like too > lean. Boost pump on, switch tanks and push the red knob in again. > Smoothed right out and leaned normally after that. A quick low level run > down the salt flats (what fun) and then over the rockpile to Denver. The > engine ran fine the rest of the way home. > > I did a 100 hour on the engine and found nothing out of the ordinary. > > We went to OSH, no problems. > > Labor day saw us to East Texas to visit dad. On the way back while > dodging T-storms the problem again revisited. I checked everything but > the red knob fixed it again. We could lean normally after that and had > and uneventful flight home. > > I checked fuel filters, boost pump flow from both tanks, checked the > carb screen again and replace the intake tube gaskets on the cylinder > head on two cylinders cause the bolts seemed only hand tight. the two > others were fine. Checked the primer ports, lines and valve. no leaks. > > Denver to IA. On upwind leaving the pattern at FTG the engine ran rough > and would not smooth out. Even the red knob did not help. Aborted > mission. Seemed to run smooth as soon as I reduced throttle to land. > > Did valve wobble check. Nothing found. > > Many breakfast flights east and west over the rockpile with no rough > spells. > > Then Saturdays forced landing. 99PZ is officially grounded until > something is fixed. > > Some observations: > > The red knob seems to be directly connected to the problem but lately > does not seem to help. > > All instances were at full throttle. Seems, I say seems, to run good at > partial throttle settings. > > boost pump, tanks carb heat or ignition source makes no change. > > I'm thinking carburetor vent, sticking float or something. > > Any ideas?? > > Gary Zilik > RV-6A N99PZ > 700 hours tach time. > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:30 AM PST US From: "Bob 1" Subject: Re: RV-List: Forced Landing. (long) --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob 1" > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" > > My guesses on cause are 1) carb ice (flying under an overcast at low > altitude is where I got my first carb ice incident - if OAT is 65 or less, > you are in "prime conditions" - you did pull on carb heat, didn't you, when > it started running rough? Seems like I heard you talking about playing with > the "mixture" a lot and I don't remember hearing about carb heat) and 2) > fuel line heating and vaporization prior to the carb - something not > shielded from exhaust heat. The other inputs of "debris" etc causing > flooding due to float/valve interference are probably closer to the truth. > > David Carter +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ If this is a guessing game, I rule out carb ice because... 1. Lycomings seldom require carb heat due to their inherent design. 2. If pulling the throttle back smoothed things out, it indicates that the fuel system could not deliver sufficient fuel for full throttle operation. My guess is restricted fuel flow....with no idea of the cause. Bob ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:19 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Lt Fenstermacher, you forgot : Maintain aircraft control Analyze the situation Take appropriate action You get the hook. Duty officer again :) Thats how I remember it anyway. What class were you in? Laughlin 91-09 do not archive shemp ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > neddle and hold > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > Dave > >> [Original Message] >> From: Doug Rozendaal >> To: >> Date: 11/15/2004 12:01:54 PM >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" >> >> I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin > Recover >> Procedure >> >> 1. Cut the throttle. >> >> 2. Take your hand off the stick. >> >> 3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops. >> >> 4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive. >> >> The second is the PARE Method >> >> 1. Power, idle >> >> 2. Ailerons, neutral >> >> 3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation >> >> 4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted. >> >> The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires > the >> PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in >> that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the >> airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood > of >> success. >> >> This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up" >> (from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly > down >> the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite >> direction and several people have been killed because they continued to > push >> on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder" > that >> would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at >> you. >> >> Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may > require >> 1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This > would >> require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount > of >> confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input > selected >> while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun > the >> Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered > by >> 10,000 feet, get out. >> >> There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing > not >> even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this > in >> my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and > pull >> the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite >> direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning > pretty >> quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip > from >> an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done >> that, thank you) >> >> None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing >> this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a >> responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with > an >> enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier >> attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes. >> >> One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal > lever. >> An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate >> structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that > happen >> to do great aerobatics. >> >> Tailwinds, >> Doug Rozendaal >> >> >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" >> > >> > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin >> > recovery? >> > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to >> > get >> > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you >> > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem >> > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a >> > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could >> > make a difference. >> > >> > Paul Valovich >> > >> > Booger >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:29 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" 42 or 43 letters in spin recovery????? do not archive shemp ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklist had to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > >> --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com >> >> In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, >> T.gummo@verizon.net writes: >> >> > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. >> >> I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold >> Face " >> ??? >> >> >> >> >> >> > > All and only the EPs (emergency procedures) from the checklisthad to be > committed to wrote memory. They were > > TYPED IN BOLD FACE AND ALL CAPS. > > HOW'S THIS FOR A BLAST FROM THE PAST? HOW MANY WORDS DOES IT TAKE TO > REMEMBER THIS TUNE? > > WHICH PLANE AND PROCEDURE WAS THIS FOR? > > 1) HAND GRIPS - RAISED. > 2) TRIGGERS - SQUEEZED. > > (HINT, ONLY EJECTION SEAT I KNOW OF WITH PLURAL GRIPS/TRIGGERS) > > lucky > -------------- Original message -------------- > > -- RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com > > In a message dated 11/15/2004 2:52:38 PM Central Standard Time, > T.gummo@verizon.net writes: > > Sounds like the Bold Face for the T-37. > > I just love it when you war heros talk dirty. What the f--- is " Bold Face > " > ??? > > > e Digests: http://www.matronics.com/digest/rv-list > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:08 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Old Timers --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North Dang, and here I thought the Honorable Mr. Stewart was an old timer???? ;{) I was doing this "falling leaf" by accident in that I was trying to sustain a straight ahead stall to see what that would do to a calibration routine for an AOA device. It was kinda fun once I figured out what I was learning. Essentially this condition is a negatively statically balanced situation, much like balancing on a stopped motorcycle, requiring very short quick inputs, to which as one gets better in response prediction there is less need for input magnitude. I'm guessing this is what Helo pilots must go through learning and is not too disimilar from tail wheel training. Unfortunately without a passenger it was/is very difficult to avoid little aileron inputs as well, as I don't seem to be able to command my body to not react on that axis. Next time I practice that, I'll try to be more diligent in neutralizing the ailerons. do not archive W ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:58 AM PST US From: Jim Duckett Subject: RV-List: ...Something Different --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett I concur with most of the other observations as to why GA has such a poor safety record. The big 3 (Training, Procedures, and Pilot Attitude) has to be IMHO the highest contributing factors as to why other operations have such a better record.. With GA not having these as , what some Commercial Drivers might call "Requirements for Flight" GA aircraft will continue to decorate the countryside. Many points were brought up on the List regarding causes of these accidents and some very good solutions too! One point I'd like to throw out just for thought is how our society has developed this carefree attitude to a point that it is now considered normal, even within some parts of aviation. I remember years ago (yes, when dirt was new and pump gas was 100+ Octane) Oil and Coolant levels in the old family grocery-getter were checked at every fill-up. Often, even the tire pressure was checked. Ask yourself how often do you do that now? Tune-ups, Front End Alignments, and Tire Rotation on these vehicles were regimented to the point that you'd think there was a TSO for them. Ask yourself how often do you do that now? Most folks today haven't even looked at, much less read their car's Owners Manual. I can remember going to the little airport where my Dad kept the Piper and watched as he performed the checklist on the aircraft. Comparing that to the way some people do things today, you'd think he was preparing for an Annual. My point is this, given how we have been made to expect reliability in our technological world, we have forgotten how to ensure that the basics are covered. We have become reliant on the fuel gauges to read correctly so we skip visually looking in the tanks. We haven't seen any oil on the belly so we don't check the oil. If the tires aren't flat, the pressure must be okay. We read threads where folks are complaining about their EFIS. Understandably so but, when was the last time you you intentionally flew somewhere just using dead reckoning? Technology is a wonderful thing, and yes, my panel will have a new Dynon and lots of other "Glass" but I guess I'm from the "Old School". There's more to flying than "kicking the tires and lighting the fire". Even if you just did that an hour or so ago. I'll step down from the Soap Box with what I was taught when first learning to fly; "Prepare yourself, prepare the aircraft, and then decide if both of you are ready for flight". Jim Duckett Please Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:57:23 AM PST US From: Wheeler North Subject: RV-List: Torque --> RV-List message posted by: Wheeler North I have read numorus manuals that refer to this as "friction torque" or "friction drag torque" (AC 43.13 1B). Measured torque = friction torque + fastener torque / (or *) K factor where k factor is a value for calibration and or for a change in torque arm as when using a crows foot rather than a socket. Friction torque should be measured just prior to the fastener beginning to apply clamping force. RE using a calibrated hand vs torque wrench. If you have automotive experience you are most probably the worst offender(I raise my hand as the king of this bad behavior). The reason is with the exception of reciprocating engines most aircraft fasteners are fine thread, most auto fasteners are coarse thread. Since the torque values are much higher for NCT to get equal clamping force, one's arm doesn't need to be that sensitive to get fairly close. But if you have learned this on NCT, its very tough to unlearn and get good on NFT. I know as I are one having many years in both fields. I tested this one day just to see how good I was. Stayed within 8% using various sizes of NCT, but was all over the place on various sizes of NFT fasteners. Although I never over torqued one I could never consistently get them properly torqued unless I stayed with one type and size. The second I started mixing it up I would invaribly get one too loose. Also, published torque values, like anything, can be wrong. If it seems or feels odd (too loose or tight), do some homework prior to trusting your life on it. I know of this happening several times to which led to fatal accidents. W ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:09 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: ...Something Different --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Jim, Your comparison to the old days of car maintenence is a real eye-opener. I'm embarrassed to admit that I've checked the oil in my 98 toyota not one time in the 6 years I've owned her. I do get the 3000 mile change, but still this is quite different from the oil checking at each fill-up that I got back when I first started driving. I'm a renter pilot so I always check oil, fuel, tires, brakes etc., but I think I could easily slip into a pattern of doing it less often if I owned my own. Excellent point Jim. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Duckett" Subject: RV-List: ...Something Different > --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Duckett > > I concur with most of the other observations as to why GA has such a > poor safety record. The big 3 (Training, Procedures, and Pilot > Attitude) has to be IMHO the highest contributing factors as to why > other operations have such a better record.. > With GA not having these as , what some Commercial Drivers might call > "Requirements for Flight" GA aircraft will continue to decorate the > countryside. > Many points were brought up on the List regarding causes of these > accidents and some very good solutions too! One point I'd like to throw > out just for thought is how our society has developed this carefree > attitude to a point that it is now considered normal, even within some > parts of aviation. > I remember years ago (yes, when dirt was new and pump gas was 100+ > Octane) Oil and Coolant levels in the old family grocery-getter were > checked at every fill-up. Often, even the tire pressure was checked. > Ask yourself how often do you do that now? > Tune-ups, Front End Alignments, and Tire Rotation on these vehicles were > regimented to the point that you'd think there was a TSO for them. Ask > yourself how often do you do that now? Most folks today haven't even > looked at, much less read their car's Owners Manual. > I can remember going to the little airport where my Dad kept the Piper > and watched as he performed the checklist on the aircraft. Comparing > that to the way some people do things today, you'd think he was > preparing for an Annual. > My point is this, given how we have been made to expect reliability in > our technological world, we have forgotten how to ensure that the basics > are covered. We have become reliant on the fuel gauges to read > correctly so we skip visually looking in the tanks. We haven't seen any > oil on the belly so we don't check the oil. If the tires aren't flat, > the pressure must be okay. > We read threads where folks are complaining about their EFIS. > Understandably so but, when was the last time you you intentionally > flew somewhere just using dead reckoning? > Technology is a wonderful thing, and yes, my panel will have a new Dynon > and lots of other "Glass" but I guess I'm from the "Old School". > There's more to flying than "kicking the tires and lighting the fire". > Even if you just did that an hour or so ago. > I'll step down from the Soap Box with what I was taught when first > learning to fly; "Prepare yourself, prepare the aircraft, and then > decide if both of you are ready for flight". > > Jim Duckett > > Please Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:11 PM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: RV-List: spin again --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Ive been gone for 5 days and didnt get to add my 2 cents. Actual practice of spins or not, your choice. However, I think at the very least you should "chair fly" the recovery over and over until its completely repeatable without hesitation. I admit I havent tried spinning my 6a yet, and like many others on this list who have been trained by the Air Force in spin recovery, Im not sure if I will due to the lack of consistent recovery techniques. Vans has stated that recovery occurs in 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 rotations with opposite rudder and "toward neutral" elevator. I was always drilled to SLAM the stick to the forward stop but that was in a T-37. For those who have done multiple spin testing in the 6a, how does this sound. Start wit a fwd cg and empty airplane. As you approach stall, push full rudder and hold aft stick. Once she starts a spinnin: 1. Power - idle 2. Ail - neutral 3. Stick - Full aft 4. Confirm spin direction with needle 5. Rudder - abruptly full opposite direction 6. Wait a turn, then abrupt neutral elevator. If that doesnt work, I would try what I was taught and restabilize the spin and apply hard full forward stick to see if it will break the stall I'll wait to hear from those who have spun it before trying. In training, we sat in a cockpit makeup and did this procedure hundreds of times until it was second nature. If you ever end up in an inadvertent spin, you dont want to be in catch up mode. Just force yourself to repeat what you've already practiced. Idle, neutral, aft, spinning left (or right), needle left(or right), hard opposite rudder, wait, then stick forward (still wondering to what extent). So who wants to go with me for some spins? Shemp ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:53 PM PST US From: Peter Laurence Subject: Re: RV-List: For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: Peter Laurence John, What kind(model) pitot and how much? Please respond to Plaurence@the-beach.net Thanks Peter Laurence 786 210 4867 > Sensenich 70x80 for an O-320 with fitted spinner. 280hrs. Perfect > condition > Complete Vacume System with Gyros, together or seperate > 149 tooth Starter- Like New > Heated Pitot tube- Like New > Many other items > > John@fureychrysler.com > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:23:53 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: RV-List: Wing root mods --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Anybody take a look at the latest entry to the first flights section of Van's website? Any thoughts on the unusual wing root fairings? Steve Zicree ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:30 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Torque --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube At 11:56 AM 11/17/2004 -0800, you wrote: >The reason is with the exception of reciprocating engines most aircraft >fasteners are fine thread, most auto fasteners are coarse thread. Since the >torque values are much higher for NCT to get equal clamping force, one's arm >doesn't need to be that sensitive to get fairly close. It turns out that the pitch of the thread drops out of the equation. The clamping force is a function of the diameter, torque, and the surface friction. Surprisingly, the thread pitch is not a factor. T = K x Fi x d where T = torque, K ~ 0.20, Fi = clamping force, d = bolt diameter (Page #378, Mechanical Engineering Design, Shigley and Mitchell, 1983, McGraw Hill) >But if you have learned this on NCT, its very tough to unlearn and get good >on NFT. I know as I are one having many years in both fields. I tested this >one day just to see how good I was. > >Stayed within 8% using various sizes of NCT, but was all over the place on >various sizes of NFT fasteners. Although I never over torqued one I could >never consistently get them properly torqued unless I stayed with one type >and size. The second I started mixing it up I would invaribly get one too >loose. High quality, high-strength bolts typically have smoother threads. This would alter the outcome of your test. ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:21:45 PM PST US From: Gerald Richardson Subject: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson Greetings: I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a few additional goodies, etc. My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this post, merely gather some data to help me decide. Thank you for your comments. Gerald Richardson Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada RV6A 25366 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:23:39 PM PST US From: "Bob Barrow" Subject: RV-List: No RV7 spin --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" I recently asked if anyone had spun an RV7or RV7A with the new rudder (which was apparently transposed from the RV9 to improve rudder authority after less than ideal spin recovery episodes in the RV7 by Vans). There was not one response despite a deluge of emails on spinning everything else from WW11 forward. Surely some-one out there has spun a 7 and can comment. The question of whether the new rudder now provides satisfactory authority to recover from spins should be of concern to all RV7 builders / owners. In discussions on spinning some people discuss it as if it were an option, like...."I don't intend doing spins in my RV". I just trust those people aren't doing any aerobatic manoeuvres...you can fall into a spin from any of them....including simple loops. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:30:59 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Unless there's been a turnaround, you can't get a Lite G3 yet. They aren't in production when I last checked earlier in the month. Check their discussion boards for further details. Have you considered the GRT EFIS/engine monitor/gps moving map? If you go with them instead of separate systems I think the cost is close to a wash but the end is much more than the sum in my opinion. Much more future growth than either of the above in addition to the already current capabilities. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS/ for more details. -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson > > Greetings: > > I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have > studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of > them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either > of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My > installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would > like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a > few additional goodies, etc. > > My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this > post, merely gather some data to help me decide. > > Thank you for your comments. > > Gerald Richardson > Medicine Hat, Alberta > Canada > > RV6A 25366 > > > > > > Unless there's been a turnaround, you can't get a Lite G3 yet. They aren't in production when I last checked earlier in the month. Check their discussion boards for further details. Have you considered the GRT EFIS/engine monitor/gps moving map? If you go with them instead of separate systems I think the cost is close to a wash but the end is much more than the sum in my opinion. Much more future growth than either of the above in addition to the already current capabilities. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GRT_EFIS/ for more details. -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson Greetings: I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would like to have the capability of the attitude directional gyros, plus a few additional goodies, etc. My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this post, merely gather some data to help me decide. Thank you for your comments. Gerald Richardson Medicine Hat, Alberta Canada RV6A 25366 le-report ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:01 PM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RE: RV-List: For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" Check Aircraft Spruce for the AN-5812 12V Asking $595 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:06:38 PM PST US From: "steve zicree" Subject: Re: RV-List: Torque --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" On a coarse bolt, the last little bit of wrench movement creates more additional torque than the same amount of movement applied in the fine bolt case. It might be that knowledge of this from coarse bolt usage could lead a person to be "gun shy" about overtightening, leading to consistent undertightening when using the fine pitch hardware. Just another possible explanation for the test results. Steve Zicree ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" Subject: Re: RV-List: Torque > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > At 11:56 AM 11/17/2004 -0800, you wrote: > > >The reason is with the exception of reciprocating engines most aircraft > >fasteners are fine thread, most auto fasteners are coarse thread. Since the > >torque values are much higher for NCT to get equal clamping force, one's arm > >doesn't need to be that sensitive to get fairly close. > > It turns out that the pitch of the thread drops out of the > equation. The clamping force is a function of the diameter, torque, and the > surface friction. Surprisingly, the thread pitch is not a factor. > > T = K x Fi x d > > where T = torque, K ~ 0.20, Fi = clamping force, d = bolt diameter > > (Page #378, Mechanical Engineering Design, Shigley and Mitchell, 1983, > McGraw Hill) > > > >But if you have learned this on NCT, its very tough to unlearn and get good > >on NFT. I know as I are one having many years in both fields. I tested this > >one day just to see how good I was. > > > >Stayed within 8% using various sizes of NCT, but was all over the place on > >various sizes of NFT fasteners. Although I never over torqued one I could > >never consistently get them properly torqued unless I stayed with one type > >and size. The second I started mixing it up I would invaribly get one too > >loose. > > High quality, high-strength bolts typically have smoother threads. > This would alter the outcome of your test. > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:27 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: No RV7 spin --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Barrow" Subject: RV-List: No RV7 spin > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" > > I recently asked if anyone had spun an RV7or RV7A with the new rudder > (which was apparently transposed from the RV9 to improve rudder authority > after less than ideal spin recovery episodes in the RV7 by Vans). > This was addressed in an RVator. I no longer have that issue so am reluctant to relate what I remember, but maybe by doing so someone can correct me. It seems to me that Van said the RV-7 did not have better spin characteristics, in general, than the RV-6. I think it was worse in some ways. Actually the article may have referred to a 6 with a 7 tail. Do not archive Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:25:04 PM PST US From: "glaesers" Subject: RV-List: Re: Wing root mods --> RV-List message posted by: "glaesers" Kinda looks like a Piper Cherokee. Extending the LE like that is a way of improving high AOA characteristics - especially flow past the tail. If you want to see that concept taken to the extreme, look at the F-18. The LE strakes go all the way to the cockpit. They did that to improve the flow over the twin tails at very high AOA, and reduce the stresses on the vertical fin root fitting - which were developing cracks. Dennis Glaeser --> RV-List message posted by: "steve zicree" Anybody take a look at the latest entry to the first flights section of Van's website? Any thoughts on the unusual wing root fairings? Steve Zicree ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:13 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: Hi Gerald, Not to sart a war or anything BUT, when I was at oshkosh this year I looked at both of these units and I must say I was much more impressed with the Blue Mountain lite. The dynon would grey out if you rolled it in your hands to fast, where as the BM lite was fine. Both are really nice units but my impressions of each unit was the BM lite was a superior unit. Kirk RV-8 wings > > From: Gerald Richardson > Date: 2004/11/17 Wed PM 07:20:47 EST > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A > > --> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson > > Greetings: > > I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have > studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of > them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either > of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My > installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would > like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a > few additional goodies, etc. > > My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this > post, merely gather some data to help me decide. > > Thank you for your comments. > > Gerald Richardson > Medicine Hat, Alberta > Canada > > RV6A 25366 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:39 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen I posted a quick and dirty comparisson of the BM EFIS Lite, Dynon D10A, and GRT Horizon here: http://www.geocities.com/svanarts/efis.htm I'm starting to lean toward the BM Lite. You get a lot more than the Dynon for only a few bucks more. The GRT unit does more and has a bigger screen but it's kind of spendy for me. The Dynon unit is nice, I really like the built in AOA but getting GPS, moving map, and a few other nice features for only a couple of hundred bucks more has really leaned me toward Blue Mountain. Gerald Richardson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson > >Greetings: > >I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have >studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of >them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either >of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My >installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would >like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a >few additional goodies, etc. > >My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this >post, merely gather some data to help me decide. > >Thank you for your comments. > >Gerald Richardson >Medicine Hat, Alberta >Canada > >RV6A 25366 > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:00 PM PST US From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Ahhh crap....... I got used to the "HOOK" "U" = Unsat for everyone else Columbus - the only true instrument rated AF pilots.... cuz the weather always sucked - on and off duty. Not like you Vance weenies.......... > [Original Message] > From: Jeff Dowling > To: > Date: 11/17/2004 1:16:17 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" > > Lt Fenstermacher, you forgot : > > Maintain aircraft control > Analyze the situation > Take appropriate action > > You get the hook. Duty officer again :) > > Thats how I remember it anyway. > > What class were you in? Laughlin 91-09 > > > do not archive > > shemp > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Fenstermacher" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > > > > > Throttle(s) - Idle > > Rudder and Ailerons - neutral. > > Stick - abruptly full aft and hold > > Rudder - abruptly apply full rudder opposite spin direction, opposite turn > > neddle and hold > > Stick - abruptly forward one turn after applying rudder > > Controld neutral and recover from the dive. > > > > That's my best recollection of the bold face from the Air Force. > > Incidentally, why don't they teach bold face in the civilian world? > > > > Dave > > > >> [Original Message] > >> From: Doug Rozendaal > >> To: > >> Date: 11/15/2004 12:01:54 PM > >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > >> > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" > >> > >> I teach two methods. The first is the Muller-Beggs Emergency Spin > > Recover > >> Procedure > >> > >> 1. Cut the throttle. > >> > >> 2. Take your hand off the stick. > >> > >> 3. Kick full opposite rudder until the spin stops. > >> > >> 4. Neutralize rudder and pull out of dive. > >> > >> The second is the PARE Method > >> > >> 1. Power, idle > >> > >> 2. Ailerons, neutral > >> > >> 3. Rudder, full & opposite the rotation > >> > >> 4. Elevator, briskly, forward for an upright spin, aft for inverted. > >> > >> The Beggs method works in most airplanes, but not all. An AT-6 requires > > the > >> PARE method if the spin develops, based on hear-say, the RV-6 might be in > >> that same group. Most instructors teach the Beggs method, because in the > >> airplanes that most people fly, it works, and has the highest likely hood > > of > >> success. > >> > >> This all sounds easy, but especially in inverted spins, if you look "up" > >> (from where you sit, actually down) at the ground, instead of directly > > down > >> the cowling, evidently it is easy to perceive rotation in the opposite > >> direction and several people have been killed because they continued to > > push > >> on the wrong rudder. Some instructors teach "push on the hard rudder" > > that > >> would be the one that the air loads, due to rotation, are pushing back at > >> you. > >> > >> Some airplanes, P-51, do not immediately come out of a spin and may > > require > >> 1 or 2 additional turns with proper input to stop the rotation. This > > would > >> require lots of discipline and patience, as well as a tremendous amount > > of > >> confidence in the knowledge that you have the correct rudder input > > selected > >> while you are waiting for the spinning to stop. FWIW, I have not spun > > the > >> Mustang, and I do not plan to. The book says if you have not recovered > > by > >> 10,000 feet, get out. > >> > >> There have been some pretty casual discussions of spins here, one thing > > not > >> even discussed is crossovers, again, I am no expert, but I have done this > > in > >> my T-crate. Upon recovery if you forget to neutralize the rudder and > > pull > >> the nose up a little hard in the recovery you will spin the opposite > >> direction from an accelerated stall and the world will start turning > > pretty > >> quickly. Also If you move the elevator too aggressively you can flip > > from > >> an upright stall to an inverted, or vice-versa, spin also. (never done > >> that, thank you) > >> > >> None of this is stuff that I would recommend in an RV. I am just sharing > >> this for the purpose of awareness of the trouble you can get into in a > >> responsive little short wing airplane. Spins in a rag tube airplane with > > an > >> enormous wings can be a non-event. We should not transfer that cavalier > >> attitude about spins to very clean, very responsive airplanes. > >> > >> One point I failed to make in my last post was about the wing removal > > lever. > >> An RV-8 at 1550# and 230 mph has 18 Gs available, twice the ultimate > >> structural limit. I repeat, these are lousy aerobatic airplanes that > > happen > >> to do great aerobatics. > >> > >> Tailwinds, > >> Doug Rozendaal > >> > >> > >> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > >> > > >> > A lot of discussion here about spin philosophy. How about spin > >> > recovery? > >> > For us new RV'ers, do any of you old guys have favored techniques to > >> > get > >> > out of a spin (note that I am completely ignoring the issue of how you > >> > got there in the first place)? Although a low altitude spin would seem > >> > to be a fatal endeavor, there has to be a height above ground where a > >> > few seconds - or milliseconds - saved in the recovery sequence could > >> > make a difference. > >> > > >> > Paul Valovich > >> > > >> > Booger > >> > >> > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:35 PM PST US From: "David Schaefer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" I hate to disagree with the comparison and possibly anger someone, BUT the GRT unit does indeed have Ground Speed, Track and an HSI. Having flown behind one for a bunch of hours now I can guarantee it. If you'd like pictures just let me know. The only concern I found with the EFIS Lite is I believe it only had a 24nm zoom range which is only 8 min in an RV! Regards, David Schaefer N142DS -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen I posted a quick and dirty comparisson of the BM EFIS Lite, Dynon D10A, and GRT Horizon here: http://www.geocities.com/svanarts/efis.htm I'm starting to lean toward the BM Lite. You get a lot more than the Dynon for only a few bucks more. The GRT unit does more and has a bigger screen but it's kind of spendy for me. The Dynon unit is nice, I really like the built in AOA but getting GPS, moving map, and a few other nice features for only a couple of hundred bucks more has really leaned me toward Blue Mountain. Gerald Richardson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson > >Greetings: > >I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have >studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of >them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either >of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My >installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would >like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a >few additional goodies, etc. > >My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this >post, merely gather some data to help me decide. > >Thank you for your comments. > >Gerald Richardson >Medicine Hat, Alberta >Canada > >RV6A 25366 > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:38 PM PST US From: "rv6tc" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Hey.... At least we could land in a cross wind!! Keith Hughes Reese 88-02, T-38 FAIP to Vance (one time good deal!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" > > Columbus - the only true instrument rated AF pilots.... cuz the weather > always sucked - on and off duty. > Not like you Vance weenies.......... > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:47 PM PST US From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Below 240, gear clear............... Fuel from the perch.........ahhhhhhhh Dave do not archive > [Original Message] > From: rv6tc > To: > Date: 11/17/2004 10:44:26 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Spin Recovery > > --> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" > > Hey.... At least we could land in a cross wind!! > > Keith Hughes > Reese 88-02, > T-38 FAIP to Vance (one time good deal!) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Fenstermacher" > > > > > Columbus - the only true instrument rated AF pilots.... cuz the weather > > always sucked - on and off duty. > > Not like you Vance weenies.......... > > > > Do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:45 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen Geez, give me some credit. I DID say the comparrison was quck and dirty. :-) My understanding was that the groundspeed and track were only available if you interfaced with an external GPS. Or am I mistaken? If so maybe I should change it to show "built in" GPS. That's really what I meant. Thanks for the correction, David. Now, I wonder how many people *I* will anger by having the wrong info on my web page? Aw, who the (expletive of your choice) cares? >:-) David Schaefer wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Schaefer" > >I hate to disagree with the comparison and possibly anger someone, BUT the >GRT unit does indeed have Ground Speed, Track and an HSI. Having flown >behind one for a bunch of hours now I can guarantee it. If you'd like >pictures just let me know. > >The only concern I found with the EFIS Lite is I believe it only had a 24nm >zoom range which is only 8 min in an RV! > >Regards, > >David Schaefer >N142DS > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott VanArtsdalen >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Blue mountain EFIS Lite G3 vs. Dynon EFIS-D10A > >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen > >I posted a quick and dirty comparisson of the BM EFIS Lite, Dynon D10A, >and GRT Horizon here: >http://www.geocities.com/svanarts/efis.htm > >I'm starting to lean toward the BM Lite. You get a lot more than the >Dynon for only a few bucks more. The GRT unit does more and has a >bigger screen but it's kind of spendy for me. The Dynon unit is nice, I >really like the built in AOA but getting GPS, moving map, and a few >other nice features for only a couple of hundred bucks more has really >leaned me toward Blue Mountain. > >Gerald Richardson wrote: > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Gerald Richardson >> >>Greetings: >> >>I am nearing the stage where I will require an EFIS system, I have >>studied both of the above products and am quite impressed with both of >>them. I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comments on either >>of them such as brightness, operation, reliability, etc. My >>installation will be in an RV6A and the flying will be VFR. I would >>like to have the capability of the attitude & directional gyros, plus a >>few additional goodies, etc. >> >>My desire is not to set up a challenge between these instruments in this >>post, merely gather some data to help me decide. >> >>Thank you for your comments. >> >>Gerald Richardson >>Medicine Hat, Alberta >>Canada >> >>RV6A 25366 >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 08:36:39 PM PST US DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; b=O4AE3aC1A5Pv4YgVCsjNQsfXOdWuBs9xqmFoCYW+CGOrokq4oveh9RNPyMIXdcRAlSXOQnV6wUl3LQxH27xjQz+yNM+SimbwPT0NphivqvjqKiKy4ubWH8FOTUq7UrsD7uNz1baKfAdnn4F1YA8BzpNnEyjZVzt53rdOYRRCx+U= ; From: Skylor Piper Subject: Re: RV-List: No RV7 spin --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper Dan Checkoway has done some spin testing on his -7. I believe he has the small rudder, but don't quote me on that... http://www.rvproject.com/20040405.html Skylor RV-8 Under Construction --- Bob Barrow wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Barrow" > > > I recently asked if anyone had spun an RV7or RV7A > with the new rudder (which was apparently transposed > from the RV9 to improve rudder authority after less > than ideal spin recovery episodes in the RV7 by > Vans). > > There was not one response despite a deluge of > emails on spinning everything else from WW11 > forward. > > Surely some-one out there has spun a 7 and can > comment. The question of whether the new rudder now > provides satisfactory authority to recover from > spins should be of concern to all RV7 builders / > owners. > > In discussions on spinning some people discuss it as > if it were an option, like...."I don't intend doing > spins in my RV". I just trust those people aren't > doing any aerobatic manoeuvres...you can fall into a > spin from any of them....including simple loops. > > > > Click on the > this > by the > Admin. > _-> > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:31 PM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Lead counter weights --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 11/16/04 8:43:32 AM Pacific Standard Time, bdube@al.noaa.gov writes: << I had a hell of a time shaping the elevator counterweights this past >weekend, is there some easy trick to cut this stuff? Band saw. Pocket knife. >> Or you could do it the original way, melt the lead and pour it into the elevator horns. Works great. Harry Crosby Pleasanton, California RV-6, flying!!! ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:24 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Lead counter weights --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" and double nut a bolt (or two) into the open space. Pour the liquid lead in and then use a drill to remove as much as need to balance. Every local plumbing shop has lead, heater, pot & laddle. May not have used them in a while but they will have one and someone with okum and the skill to melt & fill. $40.00 bucks if he does it, $50.00 bucks if he does it and you watch. $100.00 if you help. If you do it with his help and instruction: PRICELESS. 8*) KABONG HRII N561FS 220+ hours of pure joy. Do Not Archive > bdube@al.noaa.gov writes: > > << I had a hell of a time shaping the elevator counterweights this past > >weekend, is there some easy trick to cut this stuff? > > Band saw. Pocket knife. >> > > Or you could do it the original way, melt the lead and pour it into the > elevator horns. Works great. > > Harry Crosby > Pleasanton, California > RV-6, flying!!! ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:09:41 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: No RV7 spin --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Dan Checkoway has done some spin testing on his -7. I > believe he has the small rudder, but don't quote me on > that... Yeah, I spun my RV-7 during Phase I, and I have the older, smaller (RV-8 style) rudder. I was perfectly happy with how responsive it was. I didn't reply to this thread originally because Bob wanted to know if any builders out there had spun their RV-7[A] with the *new* rudder. Since I have the old rudder I didn't respond. But... Bob wrote: > The question of whether the new rudder now > provides satisfactory authority to recover from > spins should be of concern to all RV7 builders / > owners. Bob, you seem to be seeking confirmation that the new rudder helps spin recovery. Van's themselves did find that the larger rudder provided more authority in spin recovery. I encourage you to review Van's service bulletin on the matter -- http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/sb02-6-1.pdf Quoting it: "We did find that the RV-7 spin recovery characteristics easily met FAA requirements* for normal category* aircraft, but not those of aerobatic category aircraft*. (The AEROBATIC category requires that the aircraft be able to recover from a 6-turn spin within 1 1/4 rotations. A NORMAL category aircraft is required to recover from a 1-turn spin within 1 additional rotation.)" "The RV-7 spin recovery characteristics were also found to be adequate for operations within the recommended limits specified in Section 15 of the RV-7 Construction Manual. Service experience with the RV-6/6A fleet indicates that safe operation, including "Sport Aerobatics", is possible without meeting the exact spin recovery requirements of aerobatic category aircraft." ...here's what you're looking for, clear as day: "Testing the RV-7 (N137RV) reconfigured with an RV-9/9A rudder showed improved spin recovery qualities. With this larger rudder, RV-7 spin recovery qualities are equal to or better than those of the standard RV-6/6A, which have been service proven through fleet experience." "Flown within the recommended limitations of Section 15 of the Construction Manual, either the original or the enlarged RV-7 rudder will provide adequate authority for spin recovery." ...and then in the "CONCLUSION" paragraphs, what you're looking for is reiterated clearly: "The substitution of an RV-9 rudder on an RV-7 improved spin recovery. With the larger rudder, the RV-7 will have better spin recovery from whatever flight condition the pilot may encounter." From the horse's mouth! )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:10 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Spin Recovery --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" Keith, OK, I'll bite. What's a T-38 FAIP? I get the T-38 part, and the AIP must mean Awesome Instructor Pilot. But what's the "F" for? Don't leave it to our imaginations. Terry Class 66C, Williams. Do not archive -> RV-List message posted by: "rv6tc" Hey.... At least we could land in a cross wind!! Keith Hughes Reese 88-02, T-38 FAIP to Vance (one time good deal!)