---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 11/27/04: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:06 AM - Capacitive sending unit (Chenoweth) 2. 11:41 AM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (Pat Hatch) 3. 11:45 AM - Lister Comments - Please Support The Lists (Matt Dralle) 4. 02:20 PM - Fw: AeroElectric-List: Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question . . . (LarryRobertHelming) 5. 03:27 PM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (Evan and Megan Johnson) 6. 04:05 PM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (Charlie England) 7. 04:47 PM - Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/26/04 (Thomas Velvick) 8. 06:34 PM - Canopy is drilled (JTAnon@aol.com) 9. 07:53 PM - Re: Canopy is drilled (Scott VanArtsdalen) 10. 08:03 PM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (LarryRobertHelming) 11. 08:41 PM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (Dan Checkoway) 12. 09:09 PM - Re: Capacitive sending unit (Pat Hatch) 13. 09:32 PM - Prop/Governor Adjustments (Tony Marshall) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:37 AM PST US From: "Chenoweth" Subject: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "Chenoweth" I'm just about to order the wing kit for the 9 and need to make the fuel sending unit decision. I am intrigued by the capacitive unit and would like to hear from anyone who's used it. Among the questions I have are; is it measuring the fuel in the tank regardless of the fuel's position in the tank, i.e., if you have 10 gallons will it register that in a climb, descent, bank, etc? Were there any installation problems? Have there been problems getting gauges that work with it? Has it proven reliable? Would you use it if you were to do it over again? Bill Chenoweth Albion, Maine ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:41:17 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Bill, I have Van's capacitance senders in my RV-6 and really like them compared to the floats. It is much more linear than the floats and less affected by attitude, but not perfectly so. A lot will depend on the fuel gauging system and its method of calibration. For example, if you use the ACS 2002 engine monitor, you can calibrate for both level flight and 3-point attitude. The logic is controlled by engine RPM. Anything over 1500 RPM and it thinks it's in flight. I have the floats on the RV-7 calibrated by the ACS 2002 and the most fuel that ever shows is 14 gallons in a 21-gallon tank. Obviously, the geometry of the tank will not allow calibration above about 14 gallons with the float senders. Both systems are probably equally accurate at the low end of the scale, however. I would give the edge to the capacitance system only because there are no moveable parts, should last a long time. You will have to get the adaptors that convert farads to volts. Van's has them but check with the vendor of your fuel gauge system first, they may have their own. Pat Hatch RV-4 RV-6 RV-7 Vero Beach, FL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chenoweth" Subject: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chenoweth" > > I'm just about to order the wing kit for the 9 and need to make the fuel > sending unit decision. I am intrigued by the capacitive unit and would > like to hear from anyone who's used it. Among the questions I have are; > is it measuring the fuel in the tank regardless of the fuel's position in > the tank, i.e., if you have 10 gallons will it register that in a climb, > descent, bank, etc? Were there any installation problems? Have there > been problems getting gauges that work with it? Has it proven reliable? > Would you use it if you were to do it over again? > Bill Chenoweth > Albion, Maine > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:45:52 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Lister Comments - Please Support The Lists --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Wow! People have been including some very nice comments along with their Contributions lately! I've included another set of below and will send another set in a couple of days. Guys, I really appreciate your kind words and support. In the last few days, the contributions have really started to come in and its looking like support this year may slightly surpass last year's. There's still a few days left in this year's Fund Raiser, so if you've been waiting until the last minute to make your Contribution, now's the time! Make Your Contribution Today: http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ----------------- More of What Listers Are Saying... -------------------- Every morning 5:30 am, coffee and the "List". It's how I start my day. Robert G. The list is still my favorite aviation magazine. Roger H. Great resource, without the distraction of pop ups and ads! Douglas D. I look forward to my daily list reading almost as much as my coffee! Hal K. Great service! Aaron G. I have made some great friends, because of it! Bob D. Great resource!! Richard S. I learn something of value every time I read the messages. Stan S. Great list! Thomas E. Now that I am close to completion of my [homebuilt], I look back and wonder how I could ever have made it this far without [the Lists]. Jeff O. Outstanding site and administration. Anthony S. Great forum for our projects. Darrel M. I have become a List Addict! George M. A very helpful resource for me. Dennis K. Great for staying up on the latest. Forrest L. Valuable benefit for the users. George A. Great tool for all [builders]. Tony M. Can't tell you how much I appreciate the archives. Ken B. I really enjoy the sharing of information and the "discussions" that come up. Ross S. [The List] reminds us home builders that help is just a few clicks away. Danny W. A great resource! Christopher S. Always a pleasure to support this list! Richard W. Thanks for helping all of us build better aircraft. John P. Great list(s)for data, info and making friends. John S. [The] List has helped me much with my building process. Raimo T. Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:20:07 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: RV-List: Fw: AeroElectric-List: Re: to tie or not to tie, that IS the question . . . --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" More than some of us ever wanted to know about ties. (Forwarded from the aeroelectric-list.) It might be in bed now!! Indiana Larry ----- Original Message ----- > --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" > > IMHO, the only advantage of zip-ties is reduced time for installation. I > don't recommend using them in the engine compartment, they get brittle with > time and can let loose without warning. > > This is mostly a materials issue. Like bolts, you can purchase > cable ties in a wide variety of materials and qualities . . . and > like bolts, you cannot deduce the any secrets of fabrication by > simply looking at it. > > Not all plastics are equal but most all plastics are relatively > cheap . . . so it's not difficult to purchase cable ties fabricated > from known materials selected for their suitability to the task. > If one wishes to acquire the Cadillac of cable ties made from the > same stuff as the wire insulation of choice, you can purchase > Tefzel ties from lots of places not the least of which is our > friends a Steinair. See: > > http://www.steinair.com/cableties.htm > > Any supplier worth his salt will KNOW where his inventory comes > from, what it's made of and MAY be able to advise for or against > the use of any particular product in certain applications. When > you buy that big jar of 1000 cable ties at Harbor Freight for $9.95, > what you see is what you get and you cannot deduce much from simply > seeing. > > For ties that you do not wish to look and or touch for a very > long time, it's worth your time and effort to purchase ties > by name brand manufacturers where the material and it's features > are cited. Looking for UV, ozone, and/or hydrocarbon resistant > products. These are NOT the generic nylon cable wraps offered by > the vast majority of consumer oriented suppliers including > Walmart and Harbor Freight. > > > Tensioning zip-ties is also problematic. If you overtension, they WILL eat > the insulation with enough vibration/time. > > There are at least two underlying issues here. Insulation is hard > to "eat" . . . but certain insulations like Teflon are soft enough > to flow under continuous pressure exceeding its compression strength > combined with heating cycles. > > I have also seen wire-ties eat into engine mounts and aluminum when > installed improperly > > There have been suggestions in this thread concerning abrasion of > metal tubes like engine mounts due to the improper use of cable ties. > I'll suggest that ANY form of wire attachment can become a problem > for metals IF the attachment is loose enough to allow motion -AND- > you add dust and grit to the space between the metal surface and > whatever is riding against it. > > I had a power steering hose simply lay against a brake line in > my '57 Chevy for a bunch of years and lost brakes when a hole > blew out in a section of the brake line thinned out by continuous > motion of a rubber hose lubricated with gritty grease. This didn't > even involve a wire tie, "Adel" clamp or any such technology. These > kinds of things CAN and DO happen and it has nothing to do with > the type of retention technology and a LOT to do with craftsmanship. > > > If you undertension, wire-ties they don't hold well. They have a tendency > to slightly loosen after initial installation. To cure the above problems, > you might consider a wire tie install tool. > > There are cable tie installation tools that feature adjustable > and repeatable tensioning and cutoff adjustments. Many factories > use them (including Raytheon Aircraft) and they've proven useful. > They're not cheap. I've never bothered to own one. The range of > acceptable tensions for wire ties is large and it's not hard to > apply them by hand in a way that offers long service life. > > > Wire-ties also have an affinity for human skin. You'll find this out down > the road when you reach up behind your panel to do something and shortly > thereafter donate a small amount of blood to the nylon god. > > This is not so much an issue with the tie but how the tail is cut off. > Avoid using the classic diagonal wire cutter (dikes) . . . they > part the material by driving two symmetrical wedges together and > the finished cut protrudes from the tie buckle and is sharp. Use > flush cutters like: > > http://www.action-electronics.com/cutters.htm > > http://www.home-jewelry-business-success-tips.com/wire-cutter.html > > http://www.techbuys.net/to-201.html > > . . . and trim the tail off squarely and flush with the buckle > and you'll not have to bleed on the project at any time in the > future. > > For shear beauty (and no cuts on your hands) nothing can beat tying your > wires together the old fashioned way. See the aeroelectric site for the > technique. Yes, it's time consuming! and requires a certain amount of > learned skill. > > Probably no more effort than required to learn the use > of a cable-tie installation tool. However, there's > nothing 'magic' about the techniques suggested in: > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/cable_lace/cable_lace.html > > > the choice of MATERIALS is still just as critical. You > wouldn't want to tie up your wire bundles with kit > string. > > Adels work great. They also weigh more and are time consuming to install. > I'd use them to use larger wiring harnesses and for all wiring attachment > in the engine compartment unless no other option exists. > > We're talking about two related but different tasks. The cable tie > is used in many places to simply hold the bundle of wires together. > The MS21919 (Adel) series clamps . . . > > http://aeroelectric.com/articles/adel.html > > . . . are certainly adequate to many applications. This doesn't > mean that other materials and technologies are not recommended. > Proper use of any technology is dependent upon understanding > it's limitations. > > > On occasion, a bundle of wires needs to be support on the airframe > either for the purpose of simply holding the bundle in place -or- > to prevent the bundle from coming into adverse contact with > parts of the airplane. > > Like all things on an aircraft, each situation will require a balance of > needs and limitations... > > Exactly. The situation is further improved with a thoughtful > analysis of cause and effect for both materials selection and > techniques applied to their use. > > Bob . . . ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:29 PM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" I would also add that the capacitance system does away with the single biggest source of leaks on these tanks...the penetration for the sender. The only place it can leak is around the small BNC connector on the inboard rib (not likely). The installation is not hard, just takes some time and patience. The only drawback I can see is the cost of the instruments....assuming you are not using something fancier than just fuel level indicators. I understand they will run somewhere around 500 bucks......a lot compared to the old standby stewart warner type. Maybe someone who has installed them can comment further on the price. Over all I think they are pretty neat...... Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)351-1776 cell (530)247-0375 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" > > Bill, > > I have Van's capacitance senders in my RV-6 and really like them compared to > the floats. It is much more linear than the floats and less affected by > attitude, but not perfectly so. A lot will depend on the fuel gauging > system and its method of calibration. For example, if you use the ACS 2002 > engine monitor, you can calibrate for both level flight and 3-point > attitude. The logic is controlled by engine RPM. Anything over 1500 RPM > and it thinks it's in flight. I have the floats on the RV-7 calibrated by > the ACS 2002 and the most fuel that ever shows is 14 gallons in a 21-gallon > tank. Obviously, the geometry of the tank will not allow calibration above > about 14 gallons with the float senders. Both systems are probably equally > accurate at the low end of the scale, however. I would give the edge to the > capacitance system only because there are no moveable parts, should last a > long time. You will have to get the adaptors that convert farads to volts. > Van's has them but check with the vendor of your fuel gauge system first, > they may have their own. > > Pat Hatch > RV-4 > RV-6 > RV-7 > Vero Beach, FL > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chenoweth" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chenoweth" > > > > I'm just about to order the wing kit for the 9 and need to make the fuel > > sending unit decision. I am intrigued by the capacitive unit and would > > like to hear from anyone who's used it. Among the questions I have are; > > is it measuring the fuel in the tank regardless of the fuel's position in > > the tank, i.e., if you have 10 gallons will it register that in a climb, > > descent, bank, etc? Were there any installation problems? Have there > > been problems getting gauges that work with it? Has it proven reliable? > > Would you use it if you were to do it over again? > > Bill Chenoweth > > Albion, Maine > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:33 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Evan and Megan Johnson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" > >I would also add that the capacitance system does away with the single >biggest source of leaks on these tanks...the penetration for the sender. The >only place it can leak is around the small BNC connector on the inboard rib >(not likely). The installation is not hard, just takes some time and >patience. The only drawback I can see is the cost of the >instruments....assuming you are not using something fancier than just fuel >level indicators. I understand they will run somewhere around 500 >bucks......a lot compared to the old standby stewart warner type. Maybe >someone who has installed them can comment further on the price. Over all I >think they are pretty neat...... >Evan Johnson >www.evansaviationproducts.com >(530)351-1776 cell >(530)247-0375 > > An alternative capacitive probe is available from a company called SkySports. It's available as a bendable rod. The most recent catalog I have lists the probes at $85 ea & a dual gauge with 2 probes is $275. The web site says that the probes can be configured to work with existing gauges. I don't have personal experience with them but a friend used them in his -6 & is happy with them. http://www.airstuff.com/fuelmon.html Charlie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:29 PM PST US From: Thomas Velvick Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 12 Msgs - 11/26/04 --> RV-List message posted by: Thomas Velvick O-320 E2A Lycoming Engine 2000 TTSN, first run, disassembled for overhaul. Crankshaft, Cam and Rods have been overhauled by Aircraft Specialities in Tulsa, Ok. Crankshaft has standard grind on rod and main bearings, was not turned down. Crankshaft and rods were also balanced to help the engine run smoother while at Aircraft Specialities. Does not include mags or starter (bendix and heavy old starter) unless you want them for a core, but does include the carburator. This engine has the hollow crank and can be set up for constant speed. Dynafocal mount. $6500.00 Contact Tom Velvick 623-979-2519 home 623-261-2906 cell tomvelvick@cox.net See pictures at: http://www.eaa538.org/forsale.html --- ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:34:30 PM PST US From: JTAnon@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Canopy is drilled --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com Hi Gang, Drilled and clecoed the slider canopy to the frame today.=A0 No cracks, sits tight, slid with pressure from one finger when mounted on the fuselage. Told all my friends and they basically said, "OK;.... glad to hear that;.... that's nice; .... and, what time do the Eagles play tomorrow." Showed my daughter and she said, "Will all those little silver things be sticking up when you fly it?" Just needed to share with people who understand the significance .... John McDonnell (RV7A - On to the windshield) Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:10 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy is drilled --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen Oh man! That is SO COOL! Only one finger you say, that's great! Which finger by the way? Just wanted to give you some encouragement. :-) Those little milestones feel good don't they? Way to go John, keep building! JTAnon@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com > >Hi Gang, > >Drilled and clecoed the slider canopy to the frame today.=A0 No cracks, sits >tight, slid with pressure from one finger when mounted on the fuselage. > >Told all my friends and they basically said, "OK;.... glad to hear that;.... >that's nice; .... and, what time do the Eagles play tomorrow." > >Showed my daughter and she said, "Will all those little silver things be >sticking up when you fly it?" > >Just needed to share with people who understand the significance .... > >John McDonnell (RV7A - On to the windshield) > >Do not archive > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:03:11 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" > > Bill, > >.............. I have the floats (senders) on the RV-7 calibrated by > the ACS 2002 and the most fuel that ever shows is 14 gallons in a 21-gallon > tank. Obviously, the geometry of the tank will not allow calibration above > about 14 gallons with the float senders. (((((((( What does the ACS2002 acknowledge when you calibrate it from 14 gallons to 16 gallons by adding two more gallons, and then 16 to 18 and 18 to 20. Does it just keep saying 14 gallons? Something does not sound right with this. I am sending copy to Rob Hickman at ACS and hope he responds to the list. Larry Helming))))))))))))) > Pat Hatch > RV-4 > RV-6 > RV-7 > Vero Beach, FL ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:15 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > (((((((( What does the ACS2002 acknowledge when you calibrate it > from 14 gallons to 16 gallons by adding two more gallons, and then 16 to 18 > and 18 to 20. Does it just keep saying 14 gallons? Something does not > sound right with this. > > I am sending copy to Rob Hickman at ACS and hope he responds to the list. > Larry Helming))))))))))))) Larry, it's not the ACS2002 in particular, it's the dihedral of the wings in conjunction with floats. The float maxes out before the tank is actually full. If there were zero dihedral this wouldn't be a problem -- but you'd have other problems. ;-) do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:14 PM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Larry, Yes, that's correct, the float senders appear to max out at about 14 gallons, probably a little more, but unless the calibration algorithm sees a full 2-gallon increase it will not register the increment. Because of the dihedral and the sender being at the root end, the float hits the top way before the tank is full. I never bothered to talk to Rob about it because it seemed normal to me but I'll be interested to hear what he says about it. With full tanks, the gauge registers 14+ until the level gets below 14. I guess the "+" means you are somewhere between 14 and 21 with no way to determine exactly where. The fuel remaining part of the ACS fuel computer is pretty accurate, though, so the gauge is just a backup for the fuel flow counter. This assumes that you remember to reset the fuel computer after a fillup. After a fillup, the computer fuel remaining indication is always within a gallon or less of the actual fuel remaining. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > > From: "Pat Hatch" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Capacitive sending unit > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" >> >> Bill, >> >>.............. I have the floats (senders) on the RV-7 calibrated by >> the ACS 2002 and the most fuel that ever shows is 14 gallons in a > 21-gallon >> tank. Obviously, the geometry of the tank will not allow calibration > above >> about 14 gallons with the float senders. > > (((((((( What does the ACS2002 acknowledge when you calibrate it > from 14 gallons to 16 gallons by adding two more gallons, and then 16 to > 18 > and 18 to 20. Does it just keep saying 14 gallons? Something does not > sound right with this. > > I am sending copy to Rob Hickman at ACS and hope he responds to the list. > Larry Helming))))))))))))) > >> Pat Hatch >> RV-4 >> RV-6 >> RV-7 >> Vero Beach, FL > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:32:57 PM PST US From: "Tony Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Prop/Governor Adjustments --> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" I would appreciate direction to instructions on adjusting the prop low pitch and governor? My new 62 hour lyc 0360, new hartzell c/s has never been adjusted and is only giving me a static rpm of 2500 (initial takeoff roll rpm). Shouldnt I be able to redline at 2700? Advice appreciated. tony marshall rv6 polson, mt