---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/21/04: 39 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:58 AM - Re: Alternator temperature monitor was Apples to oranges (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 2. 07:17 AM - Riveting LE To Spar (Jamie Painter) 3. 07:36 AM - To Quick Build or Not (Valovich, Paul) 4. 07:39 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Charlie Kuss) 5. 07:54 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Dave Figgins) 6. 07:57 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Dale Mitchell) 7. 08:00 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Scott VanArtsdalen) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 12/20/04 Carb Ice (PSPRV6A@aol.com) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: Cold/Lean Cylinders (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR) 10. 08:09 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Dwight Frye) 11. 08:18 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Charlie Kuss) 12. 08:22 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Konrad L. Werner) 13. 08:24 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Paul Rice) 14. 08:33 AM - Re: Re: Cold/Lean Cylinders (Scott Bilinski) 15. 08:35 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 16. 08:44 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Dave Figgins) 17. 08:47 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (James H Nelson) 18. 08:52 AM - friendly reminder (Evan and Megan Johnson) 19. 08:54 AM - Kips faa test (Evan and Megan Johnson) 20. 09:01 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (BRUCE GRAY) 21. 09:41 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Charlie Kuss) 22. 09:41 AM - Re: Kips faa test (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 23. 09:56 AM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (Kathleen (rv7)) 24. 09:58 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Dave Figgins) 25. 10:25 AM - Re: Mags Crossed (Hal Kempthorne) 26. 11:00 AM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 27. 12:36 PM - Mongo Squeeze (was: Riveting LE To Spar) (Bill Dube) 28. 12:37 PM - Re:Firesleeve: Sealing ends (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 29. 12:55 PM - Re: Re:Firesleeve: Sealing ends (Larry Bowen) 30. 03:01 PM - Anywhere Map Web Site Attack (John) 31. 03:30 PM - Re: Anywhere Map Web Site Attack (Scott Vanartsdalen) 32. 04:25 PM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Christopher Stone) 33. 05:04 PM - Re: To Quick Build or Not () 34. 05:31 PM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Charlie Kuss) 35. 05:31 PM - Re: Mongo Squeeze (was: Riveting LE To Spar) (Charlie Kuss) 36. 05:36 PM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Charlie Kuss) 37. 06:05 PM - Re: To Quick Build or Not (DANBERGERONHAM@aol.com) 38. 06:13 PM - Re: Riveting LE To Spar (Richard Scott) 39. 08:01 PM - Off topic - Control Vision web site (Scott VanArtsdalen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:00 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Alternator temperature monitor was Apples to oranges --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Charlie, Now that you brought it up, I have an extra inputs on my UBG that I could use! I'm not sure what kind of inputs your Rocky Mountain MicroMonitor wants, but thermocouples are typical. Read in your manual about that. Also, a call to Rocky Mountain may bring an answer about what sensor to use. I would suggest a thermocouple (type K) like used for egt or cht. You can make your own with small thermocouple wire. Weld it together with an acetylene torch and mount it to the diode heat sink. Maybe you can drill a hole in the heat sink -- say 1/16 inch dia. and use red RTV to glue it in. A small piece of heat shrink or teflon tubing could be used for insulation. If your monitor will accept grounded thermocouples, its much easier. You can twist the wires and crimp them in a terminal. Its still recommended to weld them, but they will work even if they are not welded. There may also be something available commercially from a company like Omega Engineering that a search on the inte rnet might find. Hope this helps, Dan Hopper RV-7A > > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss oranges > > Dan > Thanks for the great info. I really appreciate the temperature data. As > an auto mechanic with 30 years experience, I know that toasting the > rectifier diodes destroys lots of alternators. I have a Rocky Mountain > MicroMonitor in my 8A project. It allows me to add up to 3 additional > sensor inputs. It also allows me to set alarm points for all sensors, > including the "user defined" ones. > Can you suggest a thermistor which would be small enough and durable enough > to be used to monitor the rectifier diode heat sink?? > Charlie Kuss > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > > >Another alternative would be to sense the temperature of the diode heat > >sink and > >light a warning light on the panel if it overheats so that the field > circuit > >breaker could be turned off. This would be at about 150 degrees C. Not > >too many > >of us have time or resources to do this. But, this may be easier than > taking > >the necessary data to assure ourselves that the system is doing the job > >reliably as installed in our particular airplane. > > > >OK, sorry folks, but I had to jump in here. Of course just IMHO. > > > >Regards, > > > >Dan Hopper > >RV-7A > >N766DH (Flying with Van's 60 amp alternator, even though I don't need even > 35 > >amps!) > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:37 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar From: "Jamie Painter" --> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" Listers: Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've already ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head access isn't a problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to hit the AN470AD4-X rivets for what seems like forever to get them to set through the spar, and I think this is aggravating the problem (it's one thing to get your hand in there to set the rivet...it's another thing entirely to hold it there for any extended period of time!) Would you folks that have used both the 2x and the 3x recommend that I upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets much easier than the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x means. Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I know that the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal mechanisms are heavier or what? I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except for the spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as well). It seems like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the impact from the rivet gun so the bucking bar is not receiving enough impulse to drive the rivet. I've tried every combination of air pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. Thanks in advance! Jamie do not archive -- Jamie D. Painter RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) http://rv.jpainter.org ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:19 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not From: "Valovich, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, etc, etc. I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also enters the equation. I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you decide to go one way or the other? Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the QB. Paul Valovich Booger Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:39:28 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Jamie, I assume that you are referring to driving the rivets between the main spar and the leading edge's rib rear flanges? I suggest that you make a copy of my "BINFORD 9000" bucking bar. This will allow you to install the manufactured head from the front (top as viewed on the jig). The BINFORD 900 is then placed on top of the manufactured head. (Your 1/8" universal set is installed in the bucking bar first) The person using the rivet gun can now back rivet the tail using the rivet gun and either the Avery wing skin back riveting set (#4653) or a C style back riveting set. You can see how to make the BINFORD 9000 & see how it's used at the SE Florida RV Builders site on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SEFlaRVbuilders/files/Useful%20Tools/Binford%209000%20bucking%20bar/ Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" > > >Listers: > >Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. >Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've already >ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head access isn't a >problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to hit the AN470AD4-X >rivets for what seems like forever to get them to set through the spar, and I >think this is aggravating the problem (it's one thing to get your hand in >there to set the rivet...it's another thing entirely to hold it there for any >extended period of time!) Would you folks that have used both the 2x and the >3x recommend that I upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets >much easier than the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x means. > Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I know > that >the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal mechanisms are >heavier or what? > >I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except for the >spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as well). It seems >like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the impact from the rivet gun so >the bucking bar is not receiving enough impulse to drive the rivet. I've >tried every combination of air pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. > >Thanks in advance! > >Jamie > >do not archive > >-- >Jamie D. Painter >RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) >http://rv.jpainter.org > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:54:11 AM PST US From: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Charlie Is this picture posted elsewhere (would need to join the group to view) Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Jamie, I assume that you are referring to driving the rivets between the main spar and the leading edge's rib rear flanges? I suggest that you make a copy of my "BINFORD 9000" bucking bar. This will allow you to install the manufactured head from the front (top as viewed on the jig). The BINFORD 900 is then placed on top of the manufactured head. (Your 1/8" universal set is installed in the bucking bar first) The person using the rivet gun can now back rivet the tail using the rivet gun and either the Avery wing skin back riveting set (#4653) or a C style back riveting set. You can see how to make the BINFORD 9000 & see how it's used at the SE Florida RV Builders site on Yahoo http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SEFlaRVbuilders/files/Useful%20Tools/Binford%2 09000%20bucking%20bar/ Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" > > >Listers: > >Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. >Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've >already ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head >access isn't a problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to >hit the AN470AD4-X rivets for what seems like forever to get them to >set through the spar, and I think this is aggravating the problem (it's >one thing to get your hand in there to set the rivet...it's another >thing entirely to hold it there for any extended period of time!) >Would you folks that have used both the 2x and the 3x recommend that I >upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets much easier than the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x means. > Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I >know that the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal >mechanisms are heavier or what? > >I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except >for the spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as >well). It seems like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the >impact from the rivet gun so the bucking bar is not receiving enough >impulse to drive the rivet. I've tried every combination of air pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. > >Thanks in advance! > >Jamie > >do not archive > >-- >Jamie D. Painter >RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) http://rv.jpainter.org > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:57:03 AM PST US From: Dale Mitchell Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Dale Mitchell You will still have plenty of stuff to do. Dale Mitchell RV-8A MN wing --- "Valovich, Paul" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > > I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and > admittedly have > contracted a very serious case of the "disease". > This stuff is great - > tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I > have found that the > actual construction timeline is moving more to the > right from what I had > envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, > but the time actually > available to get into the workshop. All the usual > suspects - job, wife, > grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, > community involvement, > etc, etc. > > > I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit > or quick build. I > enjoy the construction process, but am becoming > increasingly frustrated > by the time constraints. And somehow I've > inadvertently let myself > become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my > toys" factor also > enters the equation. > > > I realize that the decision is ultimately mine > alone, but I'd be > interested in hearing some thought of others who > have found themselves > in a similar situation. What were the deciding > factors that made you > decide to go one way or the other? > > > Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover > the added cost of the > QB. > > > Paul Valovich > > Booger > > Ridgecrest, CA > > > > Contributions > any other > Forums. > > http://www.matronics.com/subscription > http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm > http://www.matronics.com/archives > http://www.matronics.com/photoshare > http://www.matronics.com/emaillists > > > > > > __________________________________ http://my.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:12 AM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen If you can afford a quick build go that route. I would have if I could have afforded it. Valovich, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > >I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have >contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - >tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the >actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had >envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually >available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, >grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, >etc, etc. > > >I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I >enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated >by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself >become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also >enters the equation. > > >I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be >interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves >in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you >decide to go one way or the other? > > >Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the >QB. > > >Paul Valovich > >Booger > >Ridgecrest, CA > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:42 AM PST US From: PSPRV6A@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 32 Msgs - 12/20/04 Carb Ice --> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com Hint: EGT serves as a fairly effective carb ice warning. Cruising with full lean mixture, slight carb ice will initially not reduce power, as it richens the mixture enough to offset the slightly reduced airfow. Keeping an eye on EGT will detect carb ice very early, while there is plenty of heat to eliminate it. In 30 years of flying Cessna, all of the SERIOUS carb ice happened on just one trip! Watching the EGT I have seen very minor ice frequently, which would normally go unnoticed. A manifold pressure gage is also useful for detecting minor carb ice. Paul S. Petersen, Minnetonka MN RV6A 95% done. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:22 AM PST US From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Subject: RV-List: RE: Cold/Lean Cylinders --> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" listers, Here's what I have found out to date concerning the issues with my engine. The original problem was that, in cold air, the #3 & #4 cylinders were already running lean in cruise at the full rich setting. Swapping out the carb had no effect (stock from AeroSport Power). Checks on the fuel supply side showed everything in order with no fuel flow restrictions. The airbox is standard, with a clean air filter. The carb bowl level is within spec's. This RV-6A is running a 70CM6S9-0 (79) Sensenich prop. The engine is an O-320D1A with 9:1 compression pistons, with a carb # 10-5217. The carb jet is a 47-828 with a .093 diam jet. Swapping out the jet to a P/N 47-773 style jet (different spray bar area) proved to worsen the engine performance. Besides running very rich (it had a .107" diam jet size) it did not run smoothly over a wide RPM setting range without a lot of manual mixture changes. Overall, performance was unacceptable. Changing the jet to a P/N 47-828 with a .098" diam jet size has resulted in both smooth operation over a wide RPM range, and with #3 & #4 cylinders starting out rich while operating in cold air (15*F OAT, cruise at full rich). Leaning from this operational point results in all cylinders EGT's first getting hotter, peaking, then falling as would be expected. Fuel flows have increased (also expected, as this is a 10% increase in the jet diameter). There still is a 50*F - 100*F difference in EGT's depending on the power setting. Leaning to 50*F lean of peak on the hottest cylinder (#3) still results in #4 cylinder CHT to be considerably lower than the rest (#1 & #2 CHT's are hottest, #3 & #4 CHT's are the coldest, in that order), so this may still be a plenum air flow issue. All testing to date has been done at low altitudes (3000' MSL). I'm expecting fuel flows to be lower at higher altitudes (about the same at they were with the original P/N 47-828 .093" jet). I'm traveling to Florida next week, so I'll take some more numbers at higher altitudes as I travel down the East Coast. The data still indicates that there is still an issue with fuel sharing between cylinders, but it's better than it was with the original jet. After I return from Florida, I'll do some more testing with a P/N 47-828 .100" jet to see if this helps change the sharing (the original jet will be "reamed" out from .093" to .100"). This would be close to the #28 drill size others have found to improve performance...... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:50 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye Paul, I have also been amazed at how challenging it has been to find time to work on the project (I have two teenagers, an intact marrage, am not retired, have a busy job, etc, etc). I built my empenage and then ordered a slow-build wing kit. Partway through it I realized that if I expected to get this finished before I am 50 (an arbitrary goal, but a good one if you ask me .. and I am 46 now, so should be able to actually *achieve* that too, darn it) I would be well served to go QB on the fuse. I did so and am not sorry I did. I don't know if you'll come to the same view as I have ... but if I were doing it again, I would likely choose to go QB all the way. Now that I am into my QB fuse, I can confirm what another list member said. You'll have plenty to do to feed that airplane-building-addiction. :) For you who have the time and ability to get out there and build a slow build plane in a few short years ... god bless you. You are an inspiration to the rest of us who struggle to carve out a small handful of hours each week to push our project forward! I keep telling myself that as long as I just don't quit I'll have a great airplane in the end! So ... I get in hours (or minutes) when I can, and don't grumble about it (too much, at least). :) Thanks goodness I am in a situation where I can build in my garage. If I had to _travel_ to get to my project it would go twice again as slowly! -- Dwight do not archive On Tue Dec 21 10:35:44 2004, Valovich, Paul wrote : >I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have >contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - >tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the >actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had >envisioned. [ ... snip ... ] ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:32 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: RE: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Dave No, unfortunately, it's not. I can sign you up. After you see what you want, you can simply remove yourself from the group. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> > >Charlie >Is this picture posted elsewhere (would need to join the group to view) >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar > >--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > >Jamie, > I assume that you are referring to driving the rivets between the main >spar and the leading edge's rib rear flanges? I suggest that you make a copy >of my "BINFORD 9000" bucking bar. This will allow you to install the >manufactured head from the front (top as viewed on the jig). The BINFORD 900 >is then placed on top of the manufactured head. (Your 1/8" universal set is >installed in the bucking bar first) The person using the rivet gun can now >back rivet the tail using the rivet gun and either the Avery wing skin back >riveting set (#4653) or a C style back riveting set. > You can see how to make the BINFORD 9000 & see how it's used at the SE >Florida RV Builders site on Yahoo > >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SEFlaRVbuilders/files/Useful%20Tools/Binford%2 >09000%20bucking%20bar/ > >Charlie Kuss > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" > > > > > >Listers: > > > >Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. > >Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've > >already ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head > >access isn't a problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to > >hit the AN470AD4-X rivets for what seems like forever to get them to > >set through the spar, and I think this is aggravating the problem (it's > >one thing to get your hand in there to set the rivet...it's another > >thing entirely to hold it there for any extended period of time!) > >Would you folks that have used both the 2x and the 3x recommend that I > >upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets much easier than >the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x means. > > Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I > >know that the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal > >mechanisms are heavier or what? > > > >I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except > >for the spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as > >well). It seems like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the > >impact from the rivet gun so the bucking bar is not receiving enough > >impulse to drive the rivet. I've tried every combination of air >pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. > > > >Thanks in advance! > > > >Jamie > > > >do not archive > > > >-- > >Jamie D. Painter > >RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) http://rv.jpainter.org > > > > > > >advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:49 AM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" Paul, I would go Q.B. if the money is available! Once it is finished & flying and you still want to build, then build another one while enjoying to fly the first one, or help another builder during their construction. I'd go QB. Konrad do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Valovich, Paul To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, etc, etc. I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also enters the equation. I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you decide to go one way or the other? Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the QB. Paul Valovich Booger Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:09 AM PST US From: "Paul Rice" Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not Seal-Send-Time: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 11:21:11 -0500 --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" Hey Paul, I have just finished my horiz. stab. and have a QB on order. To me, it looks like the best way to go if money is not a factor. Like you, time is more of a constraint then anything else. Like Vans says, for the price of your time, it is well worth the money. Don't forget that prices go up 1 to 3 percent Jan 1, so if you can pay for it before then you will save a little money. Good luck, Paul RV-8 QB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Valovich, Paul" Subject: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not > --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" > > I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have > contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - > tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the > actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had > envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually > available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, > grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, > etc, etc. > > > I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I > enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated > by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself > become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also > enters the equation. > > > I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be > interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves > in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you > decide to go one way or the other? > > > Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the > QB. > > > Paul Valovich > > Booger > > Ridgecrest, CA > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:33:26 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Cold/Lean Cylinders --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski One thing to point out is that the EGT spread is not as important as when the cylinders will peak relative to each other. Only worry about the spread after peaking each cylinder and then note the spread. Since I am fuel injected I dont have your problems but I have gone to great lengths to make sure all cylinders peak at the same time, not the same temp, this is key. You can do this but need a flow meter and a EGT on each cylinder. If you have this, contact me off line and I will explain how to do it. Has any one experimented with or has seen the "Turbo Tornado" advertised on TV. I would think that a device like this would greatly help fuel/air distribution. The scary part is that it must be placed after the carb. At 11:03 AM 12/21/2004 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" > > >listers, > > Here's what I have found out to date concerning the issues with my engine. > > The original problem was that, in cold air, the #3 & #4 cylinders were >already running lean in cruise at the full rich setting. Swapping out the >carb had no effect (stock from AeroSport Power). Checks on the fuel supply >side showed everything in order with no fuel flow restrictions. The airbox >is standard, with a clean air filter. The carb bowl level is within spec's. >This RV-6A is running a 70CM6S9-0 (79) Sensenich prop. The engine is an >O-320D1A with 9:1 compression pistons, with a carb # 10-5217. The carb jet >is a 47-828 with a .093 diam jet. > Swapping out the jet to a P/N 47-773 style jet (different spray bar area) >proved to worsen the engine performance. Besides running very rich (it had a >.107" diam jet size) it did not run smoothly over a wide RPM setting range >without a lot of manual mixture changes. Overall, performance was >unacceptable. > Changing the jet to a P/N 47-828 with a .098" diam jet size has resulted >in both smooth operation over a wide RPM range, and with #3 & #4 cylinders >starting out rich while operating in cold air (15*F OAT, cruise at full >rich). Leaning from this operational point results in all cylinders EGT's >first getting hotter, peaking, then falling as would be expected. Fuel flows >have increased (also expected, as this is a 10% increase in the jet >diameter). There still is a 50*F - 100*F difference in EGT's depending on >the power setting. Leaning to 50*F lean of peak on the hottest cylinder (#3) >still results in #4 cylinder CHT to be considerably lower than the rest (#1 >& #2 CHT's are hottest, #3 & #4 CHT's are the coldest, in that order), so >this may still be a plenum air flow issue. > All testing to date has been done at low altitudes (3000' MSL). I'm >expecting fuel flows to be lower at higher altitudes (about the same at they >were with the original P/N 47-828 .093" jet). I'm traveling to Florida next >week, so I'll take some more numbers at higher altitudes as I travel down >the East Coast. > The data still indicates that there is still an issue with fuel sharing >between cylinders, but it's better than it was with the original jet. After >I return from Florida, I'll do some more testing with a P/N 47-828 .100" jet >to see if this helps change the sharing (the original jet will be "reamed" >out from .093" to .100"). This would be close to the #28 drill size others >have found to improve performance...... > > >Fred Stucklen >RV-6A N926RV > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:35:34 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 12/21/04 11:21:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, chaztuna@adelphia.net writes: > Dave > No, unfortunately, it's not. I can sign you up. After you see what you > want, you can simply remove yourself from the group. > Charlie Kuss > Charlie, I too started to view the picture. Is signing up for Yahoo free? I too had trouble in this area of building the plane, and would like to see what you are doing there. I did something similar, I think. I had a honker bucking bar, drilled it for a rivet set, and back riveted the ribs to the spar. Using masking tape on the set to cushion the bouncing would probably help a lot. I had trouble keeping the tool on the round head of the rivets. Dan Hopper RV-7A ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:40 AM PST US From: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Paul I have similar issues, just finishing RV7 empennage and am struggling to get quality time in the garage but cannot at this time afford the entire QB route so my plan is slow build wings (with QB tanks) and then QB fuselage. I would have gone QB all the way if money was not an issue. Also from reading this email list every day there is plenty to do even going the QB route. Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Subject: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, etc, etc. I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also enters the equation. I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you decide to go one way or the other? Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the QB. Paul Valovich Booger Ridgecrest, CA advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:47:07 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Roger, Go Quick build. I'm in the same world. I run my own company and time is not always available. I bought the quick build for my RV9 and I'm very glad I did. The wings are very close to being done when they arrive. Depending on what you are doing for landing lights, strobes etc. you can be done with them in a few weeks to a month . Now thats my way of fast building. The fuselage is different as there is a lot to do in the front. But again, its a far cry from the "long" way to build. (I'm 61 also and times flys JIm ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:36 AM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: RV-List: friendly reminder --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Just a quick reminder to those of you out there with suspicious tanks.....Check regularly for loose sloshing compound! I have had a wave of calls recently from pilots with loose slosh in their tanks. If you suspect you have this issue, PLEASE ground your airplane and call me. It just aint worth the risk of starving your engine at just the wrong time. In cruising the web I have noticed that there are certified airplanes out there dealing with this issue as well.....I gotta figure out how to help those guys as well. Merry Christmas Happy Christmas (to those on the other side of the planet) Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:54 AM PST US From: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Subject: RV-List: Kips faa test --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" What happened to the Kips practice test on the web? It seems to have disappeared. I like to quiz myself every once in a while to stay sharp. Is there another site that does the same? Thanks.... Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:28 AM PST US From: "BRUCE GRAY" Subject: RE: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: "BRUCE GRAY" Jamie, I would have imagined your wife was just about ready to hang it up after that session. The 2X is just making noise if anything. You are correct with the thicker material, you loose some of your impact force of the gun in turn not kicking the bucking bar off hard and far enough to create your shop head. The other down side of not setting the rivet quick enough is work hardening the rivet which will make it even more difficult to set the rivet. I to wondered about the sizes of guns? Your 3X gun if I am not mistaken has a longer stroke in the barrel so it will hit harder and slower versus the 2X which has a shorter neck and will hit softer but faster. Make sense? My dad told me to get use to the 3X even with the -3 rivets so when it came time to set the larger ones I had the gun for the job. Hope this helps. Check out ATS at www.aircraft-tool.com they have an awesome deal on 3x guns for 30 year celebration event. They even have colors to choose from. Bruce Gray RV-8 Wings #81745 >From: "Jamie Painter" >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar >Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:26:16 -0500 (EST) > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" > > >Listers: > >Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. >Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've >already >ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head access isn't >a >problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to hit the AN470AD4-X >rivets for what seems like forever to get them to set through the spar, and >I >think this is aggravating the problem (it's one thing to get your hand in >there to set the rivet...it's another thing entirely to hold it there for >any >extended period of time!) Would you folks that have used both the 2x and >the >3x recommend that I upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets >much easier than the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x >means. > Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I know >that >the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal mechanisms are >heavier or what? > >I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except for >the >spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as well). It >seems >like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the impact from the rivet gun >so >the bucking bar is not receiving enough impulse to drive the rivet. I've >tried every combination of air pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. > >Thanks in advance! > >Jamie > >do not archive > >-- >Jamie D. Painter >RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) >http://rv.jpainter.org > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:24 AM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Dan Yes, signing up for Yahoo is free. Once you join, I suggest you sign up for the Lycoming group on Yahoo. Mahlon Russell of Mattituck Aviation, Don Rivera of Airflow Performance and another FI guru (forgot his name) all are members of that group. Great resource for Lycoming and Lycoming clone engines. Someone recently also started a Superior XP 360 group on Yahoo.. The BINFORD 9000 weighs 3 pounds, so holding it on the manufactured head is NOT a problem. You were using the 1/8" universal rivet set, wheren't you??? Yes, it is drilled to use the standard rivet sits you use in your squeezer and the Avery C frame tool. I drilled 3 holes. The center hole is used to do the 3 center rivets. The two outside holes (for the rivet set) are used to reach the upper and lower corner rivets. This method eliminates the problem of tipped rivets in this area. It also allows you to use a less than skilled assistant. You just need an assistant with long arms, especially when working on the 9 & 9A wings. I also notched the bar, so that the flanging on the lightening holes doesn't prevent you from holding the bar parallel with the rivet. I just used a chunk of hot rolled (cheapest) steel. It took me less than an hour to make the bar using a band saw, belt sander and a drill. Since the person running the rivet gun can watch the shop head being formed, getting great results is much easier. This bar in conjunction with a C style back riveting set was really handy while setting the universal rivets around the wing roots of my 8A fuselage. Charlie PS We've also got some good tech info available on the site as well. Check it all out >--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >In a message dated 12/21/04 11:21:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >chaztuna@adelphia.net writes: > > > Dave > > No, unfortunately, it's not. I can sign you up. After you see what you > > want, you can simply remove yourself from the group. > > Charlie Kuss > > > >Charlie, > >I too started to view the picture. Is signing up for Yahoo free? > >I too had trouble in this area of building the plane, and would like to see >what you are doing there. I did something similar, I think. I had a honker >bucking bar, drilled it for a rivet set, and back riveted the ribs to the >spar. >Using masking tape on the set to cushion the bouncing would probably help a >lot. I had trouble keeping the tool on the round head of the rivets. > >Dan Hopper >RV-7A > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Kips faa test From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Well I have an alternative. When I was going for my IFR, what I really wanted was to be familiar with all the correct answers, and not familiar with the wrong ones as the wrong ones just muddied up my brain water. So in that vein, I took ALL the questions, and correct responses and studies just those. Questions with correct responses. Then when taking the test, the correct answers were familiar and the wrong ones were unfamiliar. You can have them here under downloads/strangely useful things. http://www.mstewart.net/michael/rv/ Enjoy. Kahuna -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Evan and Megan Johnson Subject: RV-List: Kips faa test --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" What happened to the Kips practice test on the web? It seems to have disappeared. I like to quiz myself every once in a while to stay sharp. Is there another site that does the same? Thanks.... Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:21 AM PST US From: "Kathleen (rv7)" Subject: RE: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Kathleen (rv7)" At a mere 61, I also appreciate the time to work on the parts that are really fun. I look at as paying someone $5 an hour to do the tedious repetitive work that I'd get tired of doing. The workmanship on the QB parts is also very good. I've found one missed rivet and no bad rivets and the skin lays down very smooth. I am convinced it was worth it to go quick build. Kathleen Evans www.rv7.us -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Valovich, Paul Subject: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" I'm in the midst of assembling my RV-8A emp kit and admittedly have contracted a very serious case of the "disease". This stuff is great - tremendously interesting and rewarding. However, I have found that the actual construction timeline is moving more to the right from what I had envisioned. Not so much the actual hands-on stuff, but the time actually available to get into the workshop. All the usual suspects - job, wife, grandsons, personal business, house maintenance, community involvement, etc, etc. I'm having a tough time deciding on the standard kit or quick build. I enjoy the construction process, but am becoming increasingly frustrated by the time constraints. And somehow I've inadvertently let myself become 61 years old, so the "time left to enjoy my toys" factor also enters the equation. I realize that the decision is ultimately mine alone, but I'd be interested in hearing some thought of others who have found themselves in a similar situation. What were the deciding factors that made you decide to go one way or the other? Money isn't the issue - I've saved enough to cover the added cost of the QB. Paul Valovich Booger Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:46 AM PST US From: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Subject: RE: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> Charlie Where did you find the C style back riveting set? I looked around after the last thread on this subject and could not find one listed. Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Dan Yes, signing up for Yahoo is free. Once you join, I suggest you sign up for the Lycoming group on Yahoo. Mahlon Russell of Mattituck Aviation, Don Rivera of Airflow Performance and another FI guru (forgot his name) all are members of that group. Great resource for Lycoming and Lycoming clone engines. Someone recently also started a Superior XP 360 group on Yahoo.. The BINFORD 9000 weighs 3 pounds, so holding it on the manufactured head is NOT a problem. You were using the 1/8" universal rivet set, wheren't you??? Yes, it is drilled to use the standard rivet sits you use in your squeezer and the Avery C frame tool. I drilled 3 holes. The center hole is used to do the 3 center rivets. The two outside holes (for the rivet set) are used to reach the upper and lower corner rivets. This method eliminates the problem of tipped rivets in this area. It also allows you to use a less than skilled assistant. You just need an assistant with long arms, especially when working on the 9 & 9A wings. I also notched the bar, so that the flanging on the lightening holes doesn't prevent you from holding the bar parallel with the rivet. I just used a chunk of hot rolled (cheapest) steel. It took me less than an hour to make the bar using a band saw, belt sander and a drill. Since the person running the rivet gun can watch the shop head being formed, getting great results is much easier. This bar in conjunction with a C style back riveting set was really handy while setting the universal rivets around the wing roots of my 8A fuselage. Charlie PS We've also got some good tech info available on the site as well. Check it all out >--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > >In a message dated 12/21/04 11:21:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >chaztuna@adelphia.net writes: > > > Dave > > No, unfortunately, it's not. I can sign you up. After you see what > > you want, you can simply remove yourself from the group. > > Charlie Kuss > > > >Charlie, > >I too started to view the picture. Is signing up for Yahoo free? > >I too had trouble in this area of building the plane, and would like to >see what you are doing there. I did something similar, I think. I had >a honker bucking bar, drilled it for a rivet set, and back riveted the >ribs to the spar. >Using masking tape on the set to cushion the bouncing would probably >help a lot. I had trouble keeping the tool on the round head of the rivets. > >Dan Hopper >RV-7A > > advertising on the Matronics Forums. ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:49 AM PST US From: Hal Kempthorne Subject: Re: RV-List: Mags Crossed --> RV-List message posted by: Hal Kempthorne I won't one up you I will one down you! Mine ran from Dec 2000 to last month with mags reversed! 175 hours. It was frequently hard to start from day one which was with a new engine! It does no harm but it does make starting harder. Recently it was a chilly 40* and it would not fire at all. Figuring out that the problem was reversed leads was difficult because it seemed so impossible. If starting is difficult, check it out because it is an easy mistake, eh guys? hal Scott VanArtsdalen wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen Heh, heh... been there done that. Get this, mine ran a year with my mags reversed! John Furey wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" > >I'm embarrassed to admit that I switched the P leads on my mag (toggle) >switches which means that I was starting on the right mag only and the left > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:25 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 12/21/04 12:59:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 2004nospam@earthlink.net writes: > The BINFORD 9000 weighs 3 pounds, so holding it on the manufactured head > is NOT a problem. You were using the 1/8" universal rivet set, wheren't > you??? > Yes, I was using the 1/8" universal rivet set. What should I have used? BTW the HOPPER 9000 is also about 3 lbs. Great minds think alike. Or maybe the job forces you to do it a certain way. I too have 3 holes in the HOPPER 9000. Sounds similar. I will get to that picture ASAP. Do not archive. Dan Hopper RV-7A (Flying since July) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:36:27 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: RV-List: Mongo Squeeze (was: Riveting LE To Spar) --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube When I began attaching the LE ribs to the spar, I played around with the set on the bucking bar, but it was too easy to slip off. Also, it took way too many strokes to set the rivet. What worked a little better was a regular bucking bar with duct tape around it on the shop head side. Pushing hard with both the gun and the bucking bar made a big difference. After struggling with the bucking bar and gun, I switched over to Mongo Squeeze.: http://www.killacycle.com/mongo1.JPG This is a CP-351 with 9 inch deep alligator jaws. I bought it on Ebay for about $100. (They typically sell for about twice that on Ebay. New, they go for over $2,000.) I spent a day rigging up a rope and pulley system that would suspend Mongo Squeeze from the rafters in my garage. I used the rails from a sliding closet door with a few pulleys, rope, and lead shot to make a counter-weight system that looks a bit like the rigging on a tower crane. This allows me to slide back and forth (and up and down) along the main spar and rear spar. By maneuvering Mongo Squeeze from each side of the spar, I was able to reach every rivet. Every rivet came out perfectly. Until the spar, I used Mongo Squeeze exclusively on the bench (shown) with the foot pedal. Great for dimpling skins (and ribs) and riveting assemblies you can support with your hands. Makes it all go a lot faster. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:25 PM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: RE:Firesleeve: Sealing ends --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Larry, What did you thin with? I tried acetone, lacquer thinner, MEK, water. No joy... Jerry Cochran In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:59:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: From: "Larry Bowen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Firesleeve: Sealing ends --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I thinned the RTV. I'm happy with how it turned out. http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2004/01/firesleeve_dres.html - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:27 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: RE:Firesleeve: Sealing ends From: "Larry Bowen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I used MEK. Quite a bit of it.... - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Jerry2DT@aol.com said: > --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com > > > Larry, > > What did you thin with? I tried acetone, lacquer thinner, MEK, water. No > joy... > > Jerry Cochran > > In a message dated 12/20/2004 11:59:41 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: > > From: "Larry Bowen" > Subject: RE: RV-List: Firesleeve: Sealing ends > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" > > I thinned the RTV. I'm happy with how it turned out. > > http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2004/01/firesleeve_dres.html > > - > Larry Bowen > Larry@BowenAero.com > http://BowenAero.com > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:12 PM PST US From: "John" Subject: RV-List: Anywhere Map Web Site Attack 0.00 FROM_HAS_MIXED_NUMS From: contains numbers mixed in with letters --> RV-List message posted by: "John" It appears AWM web site was attacked...try their "documentation" site, or their discussion site. Damn hackers ! John ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:30:17 PM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Anywhere Map Web Site Attack --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen Yeah, it happened last night between 10:30 and 11:00pm PST. I was trying to get into their discussion forums and got the new defaced web page. Looked like an internet worm to me. I wish I could remember what the site said. Maybe our good friend Mr. Stewart could have helped nail the culprit. Seemed to say something about NoSaferWeb or Net or something. It was just too late at night. John wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "John" It appears AWM web site was attacked...try their "documentation" site, or their discussion site. Damn hackers ! John -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:44 PM PST US From: Christopher Stone Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Christopher Stone Jamie... After consulting with Van's I took the easy way out and used LP4-3 (blind rivets) for the 4 outboard ribs and LP4-4 for the 2 inboard ribs (where the ribs attach through the spar doupler and spar web). You do have to grind the side of the nose flat on the "pop" riveter to get it to fit against the main ribs. Chris Stone RV-8 Newberg, OR -----Original Message----- From: Jamie Painter Subject: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: "Jamie Painter" Listers: Last night my wife and I tried to rivet our assembled right LE to the spar. Boy....what a pain. Anyone have any hints to make this easier? I've already ground down my offset universal rivet set so manufactured head access isn't a problem. I'm using a 2x gun which equates to having to hit the AN470AD4-X rivets for what seems like forever to get them to set through the spar, and I think this is aggravating the problem (it's one thing to get your hand in there to set the rivet...it's another thing entirely to hold it there for any extended period of time!) Would you folks that have used both the 2x and the 3x recommend that I upgrade to the 3x? Does the 3x handle the AD4-X rivets much easier than the 2x? Also, I'm just curious about what the 2 in 2x means. Is this some arbitrary number or does it have a meaning? I mean, I know that the 3x hits harder than the 2x...but why? It's internal mechanisms are heavier or what? I haven't had any problems with the AD4-X rivets anywhere else except for the spar (it took a while setting the main ribs to spar rivets as well). It seems like the thick spar web is absorbing some of the impact from the rivet gun so the bucking bar is not receiving enough impulse to drive the rivet. I've tried every combination of air pressure/bucking bar size I can think of. Thanks in advance! Jamie do not archive -- Jamie D. Painter RV-7A wings (fuse on order) N622JP (reserved) http://rv.jpainter.org ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:45 PM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: Paul, I am ashamed to say I have been working on an RV-6A QB for nearly 5 years, and am also 61. Do the QB as you'll still have plenty to do and hundreds of buying decisions for outfitting it. Pilots need to fly although building is enjoyable. Best wishes, Ron Burnett DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:47 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Dan, You were using the correct set. Charlie >snipped > >Yes, I was using the 1/8" universal rivet set. What should I have used? > >BTW the HOPPER 9000 is also about 3 lbs. Great minds think alike. Or maybe >the job forces you to do it a certain way. I too have 3 holes in the HOPPER >9000. Sounds similar. I will get to that picture ASAP. > >Do not archive. > >Dan Hopper >RV-7A (Flying since July) ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:47 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Mongo Squeeze (was: Riveting LE To Spar) --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Bill Nice tool, however, the rivets in question can't be set with a squeezer of any type. (not unless you've got something with a 4 foot throat) Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube > > When I began attaching the LE ribs to the spar, I played around > with the >set on the bucking bar, but it was too easy to slip off. Also, it took way >too many strokes to set the rivet. > > What worked a little better was a regular bucking bar with duct tape >around it on the shop head side. Pushing hard with both the gun and the >bucking bar made a big difference. > > After struggling with the bucking bar and gun, I switched over to > Mongo >Squeeze.: > >http://www.killacycle.com/mongo1.JPG > > This is a CP-351 with 9 inch deep alligator jaws. I bought it on > Ebay for >about $100. (They typically sell for about twice that on Ebay. New, they go >for over $2,000.) > > I spent a day rigging up a rope and pulley system that would > suspend Mongo >Squeeze from the rafters in my garage. I used the rails from a sliding >closet door with a few pulleys, rope, and lead shot to make a >counter-weight system that looks a bit like the rigging on a tower crane. >This allows me to slide back and forth (and up and down) along the main >spar and rear spar. By maneuvering Mongo Squeeze from each side of the >spar, I was able to reach every rivet. Every rivet came out perfectly. > > Until the spar, I used Mongo Squeeze exclusively on the bench > (shown) with >the foot pedal. Great for dimpling skins (and ribs) and riveting assemblies >you can support with your hands. Makes it all go a lot faster. > > ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:08 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: RE: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Dave, I bought mine on EBay for about $12 4 years ago. There is a similar item for sale there now. See http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=50928&item=3861301551&rd=1 My first exposure to this tool was from RV8 builder Steve Dixon. Steve found one of these in a box of bucking bars at Sun N' Fun. I borrowed his and loved it. It looks really strange, but it works great. It can be positioned in areas where no other back riveting tool can reach. Due to it's mass, I find I that my ratio of tipped or sub standard rivets dropped WAY down. These things are very pricey when new, but can be found quite cheaply, used. EBay member "Alien Spirit" had a lot of these for sale in the spring and summer of this year. He now has a variation of the C set, an L set. See below. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4513671719&fromMakeTrack=true FYI Alien Spirit is great to do business with. I've been pleased with everything I've bought from him. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Figgins" <2004nospam@earthlink.net> > >Charlie >Where did you find the C style back riveting set? I looked around after the >last thread on this subject and could not find one listed. >Dave > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Kuss >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Riveting LE To Spar > >--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > >Dan > Yes, signing up for Yahoo is free. Once you join, I suggest you sign up >for the Lycoming group on Yahoo. Mahlon Russell of Mattituck Aviation, Don >Rivera of Airflow Performance and another FI guru (forgot his name) all are >members of that group. Great resource for Lycoming and Lycoming clone >engines. Someone recently also started a Superior XP 360 group on Yahoo.. > The BINFORD 9000 weighs 3 pounds, so holding it on the manufactured head >is NOT a problem. You were using the 1/8" universal rivet set, wheren't >you??? > Yes, it is drilled to use the standard rivet sits you use in your squeezer >and the Avery C frame tool. I drilled 3 holes. The center hole is used to do >the 3 center rivets. The two outside holes (for the rivet set) are used to >reach the upper and lower corner rivets. This method eliminates the problem >of tipped rivets in this area. It also allows you to use a less than skilled >assistant. You just need an assistant with long arms, especially when >working on the 9 & 9A wings. I also notched the bar, so that the flanging on >the lightening holes doesn't prevent you from holding the bar parallel with >the rivet. I just used a chunk of hot rolled >(cheapest) steel. It took me less than an hour to make the bar using a band >saw, belt sander and a drill. > Since the person running the rivet gun can watch the shop head being >formed, getting great results is much easier. This bar in conjunction with a >C style back riveting set was really handy while setting the universal >rivets around the wing roots of my 8A fuselage. >Charlie >PS We've also got some good tech info available on the site as well. Check >it all out > > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > > > >In a message dated 12/21/04 11:21:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > >chaztuna@adelphia.net writes: > > > > > Dave > > > No, unfortunately, it's not. I can sign you up. After you see what > > > you want, you can simply remove yourself from the group. > > > Charlie Kuss > > > > > > >Charlie, > > > >I too started to view the picture. Is signing up for Yahoo free? > > > >I too had trouble in this area of building the plane, and would like to > >see what you are doing there. I did something similar, I think. I had > >a honker bucking bar, drilled it for a rivet set, and back riveted the > >ribs to the spar. > >Using masking tape on the set to cushion the bouncing would probably > >help a lot. I had trouble keeping the tool on the round head of the >rivets. > > > >Dan Hopper > >RV-7A > > > > > > >advertising on the Matronics Forums. > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 06:05:29 PM PST US From: DANBERGERONHAM@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: To Quick Build or Not --> RV-List message posted by: DANBERGERONHAM@aol.com I'm doing a slow-build RV-7A and have been working on it since Feb 03. I'm just finishing up the wings (The wife and I did our own tanks There are no leaks but we probably used enough proseal to overgross the plane. I think my wife got hooked on the stuff) and am about to order the fuselage kit. The 10 week lead time will hopefully give me just about enough time to winterize the garage. The empenage and wings I've been able to build in the cellar (where it's warm) but not so the fuselage. Temp this morning was minus 2 F and not much above that in the garage. I've thoroughly enjoy the building process thus far, but have to admit there've been times when I wonder if I should have gone with the quick build kit. I've gotten bored with the obvious stuff: match drilling, deburring, dimpling and priming. I'm 62 years old, a retired soldier, work 50 hours per week as a school administrator, maintain an old home, and have social and family obligations. I don't plan on retiring for another two years but hope to have the fuselage done by then. Then it'll be a full time, full-court press to finish it up in one additional year. Meanwhile, I've learned to budget my time carefully, get the most out of weekends and holidays for building, and an hour of so in the evenings. (It's amazing how much one can get done in one hour.) Though I have to admit I'd rather be flying than building, I guess I'd still go with the slow-build kit. It's a beautiful process. Take your time and enjoy it. Just my opinion. Dan Bergeron Chicopee, MA Almost there with the wings ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:31 PM PST US From: Richard Scott Subject: RV-List: Re: Riveting LE To Spar --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott One of the replies mentioned a sale on rivet guns at ATS. My ATS gun is more like an air hammer, as is the one owned by a friend. The "teasing" trigger they claim is has means it is teasing YOU, seeing how long you will try to make it work. And the ATS "sale" price on a Sioux air drill is $5 higher than Brown's normal price. So, I don't shop ATS. Taylor guns some in our builder's group have don't seem to be any better than the ATS's. I eventually bought a well used Ingersoll Rand AVC 12 (3X equivalent) thru Ebay & it is a much better gun than the ATS ever dreamed of being. My AI recommends Chicago Pneumatic guns, but after working with him to rivet a glider where we used both his CP & my IR, he says my IR is equal to the CP. There is an IR AVC 12 on Ebay now, no CP 3X's but just keep watching. I'm certainly no expert, but this is my experience. Richard Scott RV-9A emp. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 08:01:47 PM PST US From: Scott VanArtsdalen Subject: RV-List: Off topic - Control Vision web site --> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen Ah, the worm that took down Control Vision finally has a name: perl.santy. It targets UNIX systems that run PHPBBS. Looks like it hit them hard they are still down.. -- Scott VanArtsdalen Van Arts Consulting Services 3848 McHenry Ave Suite #155-184 Modesto, CA 95356 209-986-4647 Ps 34:4,6