---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 01/05/05: 34 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:41 AM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Kevin Horton) 2. 05:58 AM - Re: Intercom wiring (Williams Hildred) 3. 06:33 AM - Re: replace starter for io-360/induction snorkel fit (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 4. 06:43 AM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Gary Zilik) 5. 07:15 AM - Re: Lycoming Shaking (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 6. 07:15 AM - Plenum cowl rings (Don/Marcia Piermattei) 7. 07:41 AM - Re: Plenum cowl rings (Maureen & Bob Christensen) 8. 08:03 AM - Re: Lycoming Shaking (Bob J) 9. 08:09 AM - Mexico fee structure update (Dan Checkoway) 10. 09:08 AM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 11. 09:15 AM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 12. 09:35 AM - Sub Assembly storage ... (John Spicer) 13. 09:57 AM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Dr. Peter Laurence) 14. 10:02 AM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Jim Cimino) 15. 10:20 AM - Fuselage Stand (Albert Gardner) 16. 10:28 AM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Mickey Coggins) 17. 11:02 AM - RV7 weight & balance (Steve Nyman) 18. 12:15 PM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (John Spicer) 19. 01:14 PM - Re: Lower Cowl Air Scoop Problem (Mike Robertson) 20. 01:50 PM - O-320 E2A for sale Phx, AZ () 21. 02:57 PM - Thanks to all (smoothweasel@juno.com) 22. 04:14 PM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 23. 05:05 PM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Charlie Kuss) 24. 05:39 PM - Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux (Ronnie Brown) 25. 06:06 PM - Re: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux (Bruce Bell) 26. 06:24 PM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Martin Hone) 27. 07:05 PM - Re: Ideas on painting panel? (Greg.Puckett@united.com) 28. 07:26 PM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (Charlie England) 29. 07:26 PM - Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) (Martin Hone) 30. 07:30 PM - Re: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux (LarryRobertHelming) 31. 07:36 PM - Re: Sub Assembly storage ... (LarryRobertHelming) 32. 07:56 PM - Re: Re: Plenum closure (& CHT) (GMC) 33. 08:29 PM - Re: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux (Vincent Osburn) 34. 08:57 PM - Re: Ideas on painting panel? (Greg.Puckett@united.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:41:58 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton >--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik > >The main reason I installed a plenum in the first place was that I was >told (via the RV-LIST) that the top cowl will balloon out along the >fuselage hinge line due to the pressure exerted by the cooling air. >Well, Im here to tell you mine balloons the same with or without the >plenum. Go figure! Oh, I almost forgot, I thought the plenum looked cool >too. > Gary - What did you do to minimize air leaks between the cowl inlet and the plenum? That is possibly the hardest job about the whole thing. -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:58:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Intercom wiring From: "Williams Hildred" --> RV-List message posted by: "Williams Hildred" The diagram is available in a PDF emailable format from Mark Kelley at Sigtronics. Email ID ==> info [info@sigtronics.com] Hildred Williams WilliamsHildred@JohnDeere.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of smoothweasel@juno.com Subject: RV-List: Intercom wiring --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com Does anyone here have access to a wiring "pin input and output" for a Sigtronics SPA400 intercom? I don't have access to the Internet here so I need it in email format. Weasel -4 do not archive ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:33:29 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: replace starter for io-360/induction snorkel fit --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Hi Lucky, I used the Sky-Tek starter part number 149-12LS available from Aircraft Spruce. BTW check below for how I received your post. Dan Hopper Walton IN RV-7A N766DH In a message dated 1/4/05 11:17:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, luc kymacy@comcast.net writes: --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) I have an OEM Prestolite starter on my IO-360 and the induction snorkel doesn't fit because the starter sticks down too far. Anyone run across this and come up with solution to share? I could hack up the snorkel a bit and add a bubble inside it to make it fit around or buy a different starter that fits the snorkel without modifying it. Hacking up the snorkel and restricting it's air flow slightly will probalby also add performance reducing turbulence so that doesn't feel good. Starters on the other hand are expensive but if I can save 8 pounds it might be tempting. darn snorkel....why does everything that appears to be a time saver in the end seem to require additional work itself? sigh... do not archive lucky I have an OEM Prestolite starter on my IO-360 and the induction snorkel doesn't fit because the starter sticks down too far. Anyone run across this and come up with solution to share? I could hack up the snorkel a bit and add a bubble inside it to make it fit around or buy a different starter that fits the snorkel without modifying it. Hacking up the snorkel and restricting it's air flow slightly will probalby also add performance reducing turbulence so that doesn't feel good. Starters on the other hand are expensive but if I can save 8 pounds it might be tempting. darn snorkel....why does everything thatappears to be a time saverin the endseem torequire additional work itself? sigh... do not archive lucky ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:43:05 AM PST US From: Gary Zilik Subject: Re: RV-List: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik Kevin, I had silicon airseals all the way around the cowl inlets which sealed very well. Gary Kevin Horton wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Gary Zilik >> >>The main reason I installed a plenum in the first place was that I was >>told (via the RV-LIST) that the top cowl will balloon out along the >>fuselage hinge line due to the pressure exerted by the cooling air. >>Well, Im here to tell you mine balloons the same with or without the >>plenum. Go figure! Oh, I almost forgot, I thought the plenum looked cool >>too. >> > > Gary - What did you do to minimize air leaks between the cowl inlet > and the plenum? That is possibly the hardest job about the whole > thing. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:26 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming Shaking --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 1/4/05 5:34:52 PM US Eastern Standard Time, lwalters2@cfl.rr.com writes: Charlie may post a more thorough answer, but think thermal expansion instead of stretching. What I wanted to comment on, since you have your engine apart is fretting on the bearing saddles.where the case parts. If you're going to overhaul your engine (properly IMHO) you should ship your case off to a facility like Divco and have it gone through. Have them install the through-bolt collars (to prevent fretting) and the piston oil sprayers if they're not already there. Linn do not archive Linn, The thermal coefficient of expansion of aluminum is 24 parts per million per degree C. Steel is half of that, or 12 ppm/degree C. That's a lot of degrees C. to get 3/16 inch! The whole engine (crankcase and accessory case) is about 20 inches long. 3/16 divided by 20 is 9375 parts per million. Divide that by 24 is 391 degrees C rise, or 703 degrees F rise. I doubt if the case gets that hot, but we are at least in the same order of magnitude. I guess half could be thermal and half could be vibration, at least out at the cylinder heads. Interesting. Thanks for the advice on the engine. I was planning on Divco, and have talked to them already. It already has the oil sprayers. I will mention the collars to them. The case shows very little fretting. This is a "spare" engine, I have another one in the airplane. This is a core I picked up while building the plane, then came across an engine ready to go. I got in a hurry and bought it -- off eBay! Its been a great engine, by the way. These are both 200 HP IO-360 angle valve engines. The one in the airplane has counterweights, the one apart does not. Do not archive. Regards, Dan Hopper Walton IN RV-7A N766DH (Flying since July) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:52 AM PST US From: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" Subject: RV-List: Plenum cowl rings --> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane I seem to remember someone talking about just buying the rings for the "holy cowl" so you can roll your own... Anyone know anything about this? Bill, Another source of rings is Richard Martin, Green Bay WI, 920/432-4845 Don Piermattei RV-9A Carr CO ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:41:50 AM PST US From: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Plenum cowl rings --> RV-List message posted by: "Maureen & Bob Christensen" I'm pretty sure the Richard Martin used the "Sam James cowl"?? . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" Subject: RV-List: Plenum cowl rings > --> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane > > I seem to remember someone talking about just buying the rings for the "holy > cowl" so you can roll your own... Anyone know anything about this? > > Bill, > Another source of rings is Richard Martin, Green Bay WI, 920/432-4845 > > Don Piermattei > RV-9A > Carr CO > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:03:18 AM PST US From: Bob J Subject: Re: RV-List: Lycoming Shaking --> RV-List message posted by: Bob J On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:13:45 EST, Hopperdhh@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com > The thermal coefficient of expansion of aluminum is 24 parts per million per > degree C. Steel is half of that, or 12 ppm/degree C. That's a lot of > degrees C. to get 3/16 inch! The whole engine (crankcase and accessory case) is > about 20 inches long. 3/16 divided by 20 is 9375 parts per million. Divide > that by 24 is 391 degrees C rise, or 703 degrees F rise. I doubt if the case > gets that hot, but we are at least in the same order of magnitude. I guess > half could be thermal and half could be vibration, at least out at the > cylinder heads. Interesting. Dan, an acquaintance of mine who has been involved with quite a few airframe/powerplant stc's and certifications (a recently notable one is the Columbia 400) described to me one of the tests that was performed while in the dyno cell for that particular IO-550/turbo combination. The way I understood him there is a powerful lamp below the engine that shines up through the engine with a grid above appropriately scaled so they can measure the amount of movement of the cylinders and various components. Apparently things move around quite a bit. He did say you can actually watch the cylinders move around. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying F1 under const. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:30 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: RV-List: Mexico fee structure update --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" This just in from the Baja Bush Pilots. The airspace fee is changing. In my recent experience they charged 0.80 pesos per liter (about US$0.28 per gallon). It worked out to about $9 whenever I topped off. Now it's actually supposed to be fixed, which will be slightly cheaper for us small time RVators when we top off. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com Major fee change in Mexico - 1/5/2005 Mexico has added a new fixed fee "air space" tax that is to be paid each time you purchase fuel be it one gallon or one hundred gallons. The fuel tax has been discontinued. For most foreign pilots, this is how it works: For an aircraft with a wingspan up to: 10 meters, (33') the tax is N$70 or about US$7.00 11.1 meters, (36') the tax is N$100 or about US$10.00 12.5 meters, (40') the tax is N$150 or about US$15.00 There are several problems with this however; at this point, they don't specify what the charge is for aircraft that have a wingspan in excess of 40 '. We are getting reports from both Mexican and American pilots that the tax goes from US$300 for a King Air up to US$1,200 for a Jet. (I don't know what they are going to charge for our aircraft which is 49') This is not a DGAC tax and the people at the DGAC (the Airport Commanders) have no control over it. We are talking to Mexico about this at this time however; it is a major issue that will create a lot of confusion for all sized aircraft. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:47 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 1/5/05 4:43:37 AM Central Standard Time, khorton01@rogers.com writes: > Gary - What did you do to minimize air leaks between the cowl inlet > and the plenum? That is possibly the hardest job about the whole > thing. >>>> On my dual aluminum plenums I opted to do no sealing at all to see if it was necessary- easy to goop it up later and I wanted to avoid the mess if I had to make modifications. Initial flight testing in January made this decision easier. There are quite a few holes and gaps where leakage must be occuring on mine, but they cool quite nicely with no sealant so far even on 90+ degree days here in TN on my 150hp Lyc- bigger, badder motors may not get by so easily... From The PossumWorks in TN Mark - 6A, 144 hours ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:17 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 1/5/05 8:43:48 AM Central Standard Time, zilik@excelgeo.com writes: > Gary - What did you do to minimize air leaks between the cowl inlet > >and the plenum? >>> Duh- after re-read I see you asked specifically about the INLETS- I used the kit-supplied baffle seal material that came with the kit with 1/2-3/4" gaps between the inlets and the plenums (pleni?). A "U"-shaped piece across the bottom half all the way up the sides that tuck inside the plenum inlet while installing the cowl, and another strip across the top half that just lays on top of the plenum roof... Again, not a perfect seal, but I ain't aguing with results! Sorry- I'll read more closely before sending next time! 8-( Mark ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:35 AM PST US From: "John Spicer" Subject: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" Im just about finished up on some of the sub assemblies for the tail and will need to "put them away" until the are needed. Other than putting them out of the way, how are you guys protecting your assemblies? Are you wrapping them in anything? I want to make sure they stay as pristine as possible for the next few years. -- John (RV-9A) www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:57:57 AM PST US From: "Dr. Peter Laurence" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: "Dr. Peter Laurence" John Here is how I did mine. Placed them on my couches in the living room and sealed the entrance way with plywood , screws and liquid nails. Ha! now let those cats try and get to them. Peter do not archive ... > > > Im just about finished up on some of the sub assemblies for the tail and > will > need to "put them away" until the are needed. Other than putting them out > of the > way, how are you guys protecting your assemblies? Are you wrapping them in > anything? I want to make sure they stay as pristine as possible for the > next few > years. > > -- John (RV-9A) > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:36 AM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" When I was building my -8, I built racks for the wall to put the rudder, V-stab, and elevators on and mounted it in my basement. I then built two racks for the ceiling for the wings and the H-stab. I used carpet to cushion them on the racks...worked well. I did not cover them, so I had to remove some dust, but that was it. If you lived near me, you could have them. Jim Jim Cimino RV-8 SN 80039 150+ Hours ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Spicer" Subject: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... > --> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" > > Im just about finished up on some of the sub assemblies for the tail and will > need to "put them away" until the are needed. Other than putting them out of the > way, how are you guys protecting your assemblies? Are you wrapping them in > anything? I want to make sure they stay as pristine as possible for the next few > years. > > -- John (RV-9A) > > www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders > www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:27 AM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RV-List: Fuselage Stand --> RV-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" If any of you builders are looking for cheap engine stands, I just got a Northern Tool + Equipment catalog in the mail, (flyer 1515) and page 5 has a 1250 lb. engine stand on casters for $49. Looks like the stuff I see at Harbor Freight so maybe it would work for somebody. Albert Gardner RV-9A 872RV Yuma, AZ http://www.northerntool.com 1-800-533-5545 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:52 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins There are probably as many ways to store these as there are builders, but I believe stacking them on the top shelf in the garage (assuming it is fairly dry) wrapped in an old blanket or sheet, with sticks of styrofoam between them is a good way. Just make sure they don't fall down, but are easy to reach when you want to show your buddies what you're up to. Mickey >>Im just about finished up on some of the sub assemblies for the tail and >>will >>need to "put them away" until the are needed. Other than putting them out >>of the >>way, how are you guys protecting your assemblies? Are you wrapping them in >>anything? I want to make sure they stay as pristine as possible for the >>next few >>years. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wiring ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:19 AM PST US From: "Steve Nyman" Subject: RV-List: RV7 weight & balance --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Nyman" I'm on the road and don't have the manual with me. Does anyone have Van's basic numbers for calculating the w&b for the RV7 they can send me. Just got the airplane weighed and it came in at 1104. I would like to do a preliminary calculation and then take measurements when I get back. Thanks in advance, Steve 7QB MEM do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:12 PM PST US From: "John Spicer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" Thanx guys for some good ideas. It doesn't sound like people are being too picky about the storage (except for those with cats.) I appreciate it. -- John www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log do not archive ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:30 PM PST US From: "Mike Robertson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Lower Cowl Air Scoop Problem --> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" Charlie, We installed the same engine on our RV-9A using the fab box that came with the firewall forward kit and it fit the -9 cowl without modification. It even lined up with the air inlet on the scope perfectly. Mike Robertson >From: Charlie Brame >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: RV-List >Subject: RV-List: Lower Cowl Air Scoop Problem >Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:58:43 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Brame > >I am finishing an RV-6A with an 0-320 engine fitted with an Air Flow >Performance Fuel injection. When I tried to mate the lower cowl air >scoop to the lower cowl, it would not fit over Van's standard 0-320 FAB. >The AFP throttle body sits almost exactly one inch lower than a Lycoming >carb. Van's solution is that I need an 0-360 air scoop, with the caveat >that "if that doesn't work, I may have to switch to a FAB 360 AP air >box." The 0-360 air scoop sells for $60 plus shipping, the FAB 360 AP >air box costs $120 plus shipping. > >Surely I'm not the only one out there with this set up, but Van's seemed >unsure as how I should correct it. Is there anybody else out there with >an 0-320 and a AFP Fuel Injection? What airscoop/FAB did you use to >solve the problem? If possible, I would prefer NOT to use the 0-360 >scoop because of its larger frontal area and increased drag. > >Charlie Brame >RV-6A N11CB >San Antonio > > ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:19 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: O-320 E2A for sale Phx, AZ --> RV-List message posted by: O-320 E2A Lycoming Engine 2279 TTSN, first run, disassembled for overhaul. Crankshaft, Cam and Rods have been overhauled by Aircraft Specialities in Tulsa, Ok. Crankshaft has standard grind on rod and main bearings, was not turned down. Crankshaft and rods were also balanced to help the engine run smoother while at Aircraft Specialities. Does not include mags or starter (bendix and heavy old starter) unless you want them for a core, but does include the carburator. This engine has the hollow crank and can be set up for constant speed. Dynafocal mount. $5000.00 I was rebuilding this engine for my rv-6a project, but came across a O-360 A1A with 600 SMOH that I bought. Contact Tom Velvick 623-979-2519 home 623-261-2906 cell see pictures at www.eaa538.org/forsale.html ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:17 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Thanks to all From: smoothweasel@juno.com --> RV-List message posted by: smoothweasel@juno.com Hey thank you to everyone that sent the info on the spa400 intercom!!!!!! I got a lot of them now! Yall are great! Weasel do not archive ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:13 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com In a message dated 1/5/05 12:36:46 PM US Eastern Standard Time, spike@spikesplace.org writes: Im just about finished up on some of the sub assemblies for the tail and will need to "put them away" until the are needed. Other than putting them out of the way, how are you guys protecting your assemblies? Are you wrapping them in anything? I want to make sure they stay as pristine as possible for the next few years. -- John (RV-9A) John, I joined the elevators to the horizontal stab and hung the assembly on the shop wall with some screw in ladder hooks. Two at the bottom and one at the top (front) which had to be bent to get the thing unhooked. These are plastic dipped rods bent to hang ladders on available at the Home Depot type stores. Worked great. In fact I just looked around and they are still hanging there with nothing on them anymore. Hmmmm...... I hid the rudder and vertical stab under the bed in the spare bedroom wrapped in blankets. Dan Hopper Walton, IN N766DH (Flying since July) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:17 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss John, Most of us, would simply kill the cats or move the parts, but Peter is .... shall we say..... odd??? :-) Charlie Kuss do not archive >--> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" > >Thanx guys for some good ideas. It doesn't sound like people are being too >picky >about the storage (except for those with cats.) I appreciate it. > >-- John > >www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders >www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log > >do not archive > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:53 PM PST US From: "Ronnie Brown" Subject: RV-List: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux --> RV-List message posted by: "Ronnie Brown" Folks in the RV community might want to try to head this off in CA - and the rest of us need to do the same around the country. (It seems the rest of the country likes to copy the Left Coast tax and spend crowd)!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Len Johnson Subject: [Canards] Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux Some of you might remember my tussle with the O.C. CA Tax Assessor in 2003. They wanted to assess my plans-made, homebuilt airplane at $250,000! They agreed to reassess it at $37,400 (35K plus sales tax) after presenting an appraisal performed by Dick Ruttan showing that as the actual value. Well, they just changed their minds. Given that they know far more about fiberglass canard aircraft than anyone else in the country including Dick Ruttan, they have just reassessed it for 2005 at over $140,000. This despite knowing it was in a hard landing, after seeing proof of an insurance claim, and being told that it is still disassembled in my hangar as it has been for more than a year. The assessment goes like this: they figure the materials at $40,000 (today's market- never mind it was plans built over years). Figuring the time spent building it, they are assessing the value of all the labor for the time it took to build, for a total of a little over $90,000 in labor costs. They are supporting this estimate with the blurb on the official Cozy website on the time it takes to build, while ignoring the blurb on the cost of materials ($14,000). Then, they add sales tax to the total. This is called cost-based assessment. They completely ignore their previous assessment; Dick's appraisal; the damage history; and that the plane is not even flying. If they pull this off, you can guarantee it will spread through the rest of California like wildfire, and anyone with a productive hobby will all have to flee the state, along with the businesses (mine included- on top of the 65% estimate I just got on my Workmen's Comp Insurance, I've got one foot in Arizona already. Arizona charges a flat $10 a year for experimentals). The worst part is, it takes 12-18 months to get a hearing, and you have to pay the assessment in the meantime. They did this a few weeks ago, but waited until today (Jan 5) to spring it on me, so I'd be legally bound to the 2005 tax year. The woman on the phone told me so- can you believe that? When I told her I'd fight it, she threatened to reassess back to 2003 as well. Isn't that sort of thing subject to some kind of criminal penalties? Don't they call that extortion? Anyway, I know of no other experimental anywhere in the country that has been assessed this way. I know of no other 4 place canard (cozy or aerocanard) that is worth anywhere near this, of that has been assessed for taxes at even half this much. This is close to a 4 fold increase. It makes you wonder- do these folks have any clue what this looks like? 250K to 37K to 140K? Is anyone going to believe them, given they can't give a single corroborating example anywhere in the entire country for any of this, and you guys can contribute hundreds? Help me out here, guys. I need some ammunition. We desperately need to get government at all levels involved to nip this in the bud, or California is going to put experimental aircraft dead in their sites. -- Len Canards mailing list Canards@tnstaafl.net http://mail.tnstaafl.net/mailman/listinfo/canards_tnstaafl.net ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:27 PM PST US From: "Bruce Bell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell" My RV4 not completed and still in my garage was valued at $295, 000 by the Lubbock Central Appraisal District. They said it was in the Aircraft Blue Book at that! Here we do not have to pay the tax on aircraft used for private purposes. I was so happy about that I am installing an autopilot. But I agree there is no standard. Bruce Bell Lubbock, Texas RV4 # 2888 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:38 PM PST US From: "Martin Hone" Subject: RV-List: Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" Gary, I was interested to note that you had relatively high CHT and oil temps with your plenum. Although I have only ever flown my O-320 powered 6 with the Van's baffle kit converted to a closed plenum by way of a screwed-on top panel, I have had the opposite problem, except for when I was bedding in the new engine in 40 degree C temps. Now, at 55- 65% power I am struggling to keep CHT on all cylinders above 400 F and the front baffle-mounted oil cooler is 80% covered to get the oil up to 170 F. Lycoming guru Paul McBride reckons my temps are too low, so I may look at restricting the air inlet or outlets - and maybe pick up a bit more speed ! One thing that I did note from your plenum pics - you seem to have a large step in the inlet section, just aft of the opening for the cowl, that could be causing stalling/turbulence of the incoming airstream. I tried to maintain a gradual divergence for just this reason - same principle that works for P-51's and megaphone exhaust systems. I agree that access to the top plugs is difficult, but with an electric screw-driver, it takes only a couple of minutes to remove to top panel. I'd certainly do it again. Cheers Martin in Oz _____ Block Spam Emails - Click here! ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:09 PM PST US From: Greg.Puckett@united.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Ideas on painting panel? --> RV-List message posted by: Greg.Puckett@united.com Ron, I can't remember now who gave me this idea but I love the way it came out. http://204.31.68.69/DCP=5F252.JPG It's black Krylon Wrinkle paint in a rattle can from Checker. I then sprayed textured grey (or whatever color you want) over top. It took many days to fully dry with the grey over the wrinkle finish but when it finally did dry, the finish is extremely durable and absolutely glare free. I liked it on the panel so much I used only the black wrinkle paint on the glare shield and it produced a very nice looking non reflecting surface. It takes a little practice and experimenting with temperature/coat thickness/ and time between coats to get what you want. I found it a little tough to do small items with this stuff but large areas were easy to do. Greg Puckett Elizabeth, CO In near future need to paint panel on Europa XS. It has a fiberglass Instrument Module that will have 3 aluminium inserts. The fiberglass has an eyebrow for glare. What suggestions on painting=3F Should the bottom of brow be very dark=3F I imagine the top of the fiberglass does not want to be too dark so it does not heat up too much=3F I imagine I want flat on instrument module and brow, what is preference out there for face of panel, light / dark flat or gloss=3F What ideas for on type of paint to use. Thx. Sincerely Ron Parigoris ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:58 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England If you kill the cats you'll really need to worry. It ain't the cats that are the problem; it's what the cats eat if you don't feed them well. It pays to check anything aluminum (inside & out) on a regular basis if it's stored out of your sight. Further details of what can happen are left as an excercise for the reader. ;-) Charlie (England) Slobovia Outernational Jackson MS Charlie Kuss wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > >John, > Most of us, would simply kill the cats or move the parts, but Peter is >.... shall we say..... odd??? :-) >Charlie Kuss > >do not archive > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" >> >>Thanx guys for some good ideas. It doesn't sound like people are being too >>picky >>about the storage (except for those with cats.) I appreciate it. >> >>-- John >> >>www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders >>www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log >> >>do not archive >> >> ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:58 PM PST US From: "Martin Hone" Subject: RV-List: Re: Plenum closure (& airspeed) --> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" Um, sorry guys....I meant to say I struggle to get over 300 degrees F, not 400 !!! Thanks to John for picking this up... Cheers Martin _____ Block Spam Emails - Click here! ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:16 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" I'd offer to sell it to them for $140k. Sounds like a fair deal to me and maybe you too. do not archive. I never heard of paying sales tax on the value of one's own hourly hobby time. Maybe you built it in just a week of time? Can they prove it took 500 hours, 2,000 hours? I doubt it. I don't know how much additional tax there is between $40k and $140k, but if it is significant, I think a look-see-evaluate visit with an tax lawyer might be worth while to see what your options are. You have, it seems, gotten a little bit to far on the wrong side of the tax assessor. Do they have any leave way? Ask them what your options are. Try to be more open to working with them. Don't push back right off when you hear something you don't like from them. Get informed on your rights. I would you would not do this, buuttt,,,,,Maybe some flowers or candy could be given to soften the other side up, or a cigar if its a man. Maybe you can promise a ride in the plane when its done and flying. Indiana Larry > > > Help me out here, guys. I need some ammunition. We desperately need to get government at all levels involved to nip this in the bud, or California is going to put experimental aircraft dead in their sites. > > > -- Len > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:10 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" I moved my assembled tail assemblies into the house basement where it is climate controlled and hung them from the ceiling. No problems after 3 years. Indiana Larry, RV7 TipUp "SunSeeker" Evansville, Indiana (just north of western Kentucky) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charlie Kuss" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sub Assembly storage ... > --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss > > John, > Most of us, would simply kill the cats or move the parts, but Peter is > .... shall we say..... odd??? :-) > Charlie Kuss > > do not archive > > >--> RV-List message posted by: "John Spicer" > > > >Thanx guys for some good ideas. It doesn't sound like people are being too > >picky > >about the storage (except for those with cats.) I appreciate it. > > > >-- John > > > >www.rivetbangers.com - A marriage of web and mail, no ads, just builders > >www.spikesplace.org/cgi-php/serendipity - Builder's log > > > >do not archive > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:01 PM PST US From: GMC Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Plenum closure (& CHT) --> RV-List message posted by: GMC 1) Did I read that right, you are trying to keep your CHT's over 400F. ?? I don't have a Lycoming operators manual for the 0-320 however the 0-360 manual states that at the Bayonet location "for maximum service life of the engine maintain CHT between 150F. and 400F. during continuous operation". Most of the RV 0-320's I have experience with cruise at about 330F. - 350F. CHT on a standard day measured at Bayonet. 2) can anyone out there tell me why a plenum should be any more efficient than well sealed baffles, (no, my cowl does not bulge out in flight). George in Langley BC 6A flying 7A wings ---------- I was interested to note that you had relatively high CHT and oil temps with your plenum. Although I have only ever flown my O-320 powered 6 with the Van's baffle kit converted to a closed plenum by way of a screwed-on top panel, I have had the opposite problem, except for when I was bedding in the new engine in 40 degree C temps. Now, at 55- 65% power I am struggling to keep CHT on all cylinders above 400 F and the front baffle-mounted oil cooler is 80% covered to get the oil up to 170 F. Lycoming guru Paul McBride reckons my temps are too low, so I may look at restricting the air inlet or outlets - and maybe pick up a bit more speed ! One thing that I did note from your plenum pics - you seem to have a large step in the inlet section, just aft of the opening for the cowl, that could be causing stalling/turbulence of the incoming airstream. I tried to maintain a gradual divergence for just this reason - same principle that works for P-51's and megaphone exhaust systems. I agree that access to the top plugs is difficult, but with an electric screw-driver, it takes only a couple of minutes to remove to top panel. I'd certainly do it again. Cheers Martin in Oz ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:06 PM PST US From: "Vincent Osburn" Subject: Re: RV-List: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux --> RV-List message posted by: "Vincent Osburn" A friend who lives in Kern County Ca. had been taxed many years for an airplane that was dimantled in his hanger which he paid until they raised the tax dramatically one year. He called the assessor (yes, you can call him in Kern Co.) and told him the plane was "dismantled and not airworthy and why are you taxing me so much all of a sudden.". They don't tax him anything now. Apparently a dismantled non air worthy airplane is pile of parts unless it's assembled and in annuall? Is that not so for RV builders or anyones airplane that is in the process of being completed or built? When does an airplane become an airplane and when does an airplane cease being an airplane? I don't know anything. I'm just throwing a few thoughts/ arguments for consideration. > [Original Message] > From: Bruce Bell > To: > Date: 1/5/2005 6:05:33 PM > Subject: Re: RV-List: Orange County CA Tax Assessor, Redux > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Bell" > > My RV4 not completed and still in my garage was valued at $295, 000 by the > Lubbock Central Appraisal District. They said it was in the Aircraft Blue > Book at that! Here we do not have to pay the tax on aircraft used for > private purposes. I was so happy about that I am installing an autopilot. > But I agree there is no standard. > Bruce Bell > Lubbock, Texas > RV4 # 2888 > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:57:18 PM PST US From: Greg.Puckett@united.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Ideas on painting panel? --> RV-List message posted by: Greg.Puckett@united.com Oops, I meant for that to go to Aeroelectric-list do not archive Ron, I can't remember now who gave me this idea but I love the way it came out. http://204.31.68.69/DCP=5F252.JPG It's black Krylon Wrinkle paint in a rattle can from Checker. I then sprayed textured grey (or whatever color you want) over top. It took many days to fully dry with the grey over the wrinkle finish but when it finally did dry, the finish is extremely durable and absolutely glare free. I liked it on the panel so much I used only the black wrinkle paint on the glare shield and it produced a very nice looking non reflecting surface. It takes a little practice and experimenting with temperature/coat thickness/ and time between coats to get what you want. I found it a little tough to do small items with this stuff but large areas were easy to do. Greg Puckett Elizabeth, CO In near future need to paint panel on Europa XS. It has a fiberglass Instrument Module that will have 3 aluminium inserts. The fiberglass has an eyebrow for glare. What suggestions on painting=3F Should the bottom of brow be very dark=3F I imagine the top of the fiberglass does not want to be too dark so it does not heat up too much=3F I imagine I want flat on instrument module and brow, what is preference out there for face of panel, light / dark flat or gloss=3F What ideas for on type of paint to use. Thx. Sincerely Ron Parigoris