Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:36 AM - Re: Standby Gyros (Jeff Point)
2. 03:05 AM - Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Ron Schreck)
3. 03:44 AM - Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Dana Overall)
4. 04:48 AM - Re: Headsets.....again... (Charles Rowbotham)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: Standby Gyros (linn walters)
6. 06:25 AM - Re: Changing out Air speed indicators (Kevin Horton)
7. 07:00 AM - Re: Headsets.....again... (Bill VonDane)
8. 07:11 AM - Re: TEE for heater (Bob)
9. 08:07 AM - Electric Artificial Horizon for Sale (Tony Marshall)
10. 08:11 AM - Re: well, I guess I'll stir the pot (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Bob J)
11. 08:17 AM - Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Mike Nellis)
12. 08:17 AM - Re: Carburator heat on rvs (Matt Jurotich)
13. 08:25 AM - Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Dan Checkoway)
14. 08:28 AM - Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) (Dan Checkoway)
15. 08:58 AM - Re: Carburetor heat on RVs ()
16. 09:00 AM - Re:Carb heat on Lycomings (PSPRV6A@aol.com)
17. 09:31 AM - Re: TEE for heater (Larry Bowen)
18. 09:35 AM - Re: Re: Headsets.....again... (Ross S)
19. 09:44 AM - Re: Carburetor heat on RVs (Bryan Jones)
20. 09:58 AM - How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft (Jon Croke)
21. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Headsets.....again... (Larry Bowen)
22. 10:41 AM - Lycoming - tractor engine or turbine smooth? ()
23. 10:45 AM - lighted panel (Evan and Megan Johnson)
24. 11:04 AM - Re: Standby Gyros (GMC)
25. 11:32 AM - Re: lighted panel (james freeman)
26. 11:45 AM - Re: lighted panel (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
27. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Headsets.....again... (JOHN STARN)
28. 12:40 PM - Re: Carburetor heat on RVs (Doug Weiler)
29. 12:46 PM - Sennheiser Headsets..... (Aircraft Technical Book Company)
30. 03:12 PM - Re: Sennheiser Headsets..... (Dana Overall)
31. 03:14 PM - Anywhere Map with XM Weather (John)
32. 04:08 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Doug Rozendaal)
33. 04:44 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (James Freeman)
34. 04:55 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Sam Buchanan)
35. 05:30 PM - Gillespie Field/San Diego (Louis Willig)
36. 05:30 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Jim Jewell)
37. 05:41 PM - Re: Lycoming - tractor engine or turbine smooth? (LeastDrag93066@aol.com)
38. 05:47 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Sam Buchanan)
39. 06:01 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Scott VanArtsdalen)
40. 07:45 PM - Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather (Alex Peterson)
41. 10:11 PM - Re: Headsets.....again... (H.Ivan Haecker)
42. 10:13 PM - Re: Brass/Copper bus bar (HCRV6@aol.com)
43. 10:48 PM - Van's deluxe tailwheel spring set (HCRV6@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Standby Gyros |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Interesting. I went back and re-read the ad for this unit, and it is
somewhat confusing. The display looks like the heading display in the
Digitrak models. Do these use heading or are they GPS track as well? I
agree that actual heading would be much more useful. However my whiskey
compass is a already a backup to my Dynon w/ built in compass so I feel
OK swapping it out for the ADI.
Jeff Point
>In Canada we need a source of heading that is not dependent on aircraft
>electrical power so don't throw out that whiskey compass too soon.
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
Excellent point! After I read this post I dove into Bob Nuckolls' "AeroElectric
Connection" and found that ALL of his sample electic wiring schematics have
a starter contactor. I have great respect for "Electric" Bob yet I see your
point as well. I'm hoping Bob will jump on this thread and shed some light on
this issue. Come in Bob!
Ron Schreck
RV-8
Gold Hill, NC
>>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place? There's
one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to prevent
arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>
> >>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place?
>There's
> one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
> terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
> then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to
>prevent
> arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
> one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
>
The way I see it with my non electrical mind is the starter contactor setup
allows you to keep your "large" wires forward of the firewall in an effort
to reduce noise. In my setup a 2AWG wire is called out between battery
contactor/starter contactor and starter sol. Only a 20AWG wire is called
out going between the main bus bar/push to start button and switch terminal
on the starter contactor. Maybe I'm missing something but if I "Disconnect
the jumper from the big
> terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
> then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to
>prevent
> arcing in the switch or contactor." I've got a big wire penetrating
>my firewall where I don't want one.
Thoughts from the uninformed:-)
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
Message 4
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| Subject: | Headsets.....again... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" <crowbotham@hotmail.com>
Hi Bill,
While I do not have experience with the Bose headsets, Dave and I have
Lightspeeds. Dave has the 20XL and I have the XCounrty ANR. THe 20 is more
comfortable but both work very effectively after 3 yrs. I only problem I had
was some crackling noise last summer. I called Lightspeed and they said to
send it in. A week later I had it back, it's now good as new and No Charge.
Chuck
>From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv8-list@matronics.com>, <RV-8@yahoogroups.com>,
><rv-list@matronics.com>, "vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RV-List: Headsets.....again...
>Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 18:17:01 -0700
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
>Ok, I know we have been over this before, I just got through ready the
>archives...
>
>I am thinking of getting some Bose X headsets, but want to know if anyone
>has used any of these others before I spend the $$... I would also like to
>know what your old headset was and how they compare...
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Standby Gyros |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Jeff Point wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
>
>Interesting. I went back and re-read the ad for this unit, and it is
>somewhat confusing. The display looks like the heading display in the
>Digitrak models. Do these use heading or are they GPS track as well? I
>agree that actual heading would be much more useful.
>
Why? I'm quite happy following the green line on my Anywhere map, and
the only information I get from heading Vs. track is crosswind info
..... and I don't see any use for that info (and it's a PITA to compute
etc.). All the other info I get (groundspeed, ETA or ATA) tell me
whether I can reach my destination safely with fuel on board. So, tell
me what I'm missing???
Linn
do not archive
> However my whiskey
>compass is a already a backup to my Dynon w/ built in compass so I feel
>OK swapping it out for the ADI.
>
>Jeff Point
>
>
>
>>In Canada we need a source of heading that is not dependent on aircraft
>>electrical power so don't throw out that whiskey compass too soon.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Changing out Air speed indicators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" <cheathco@comcast.net>
>
> I just bought a Knots outer ring with true airspeed window from Vans,
> and was wondering if there is any caviats to removing/installing? (I
> didnt build the plane) this is on an RV6A Charlie heathco
>
One thing to be aware of is that each airspeed indicator has its own
instrument error. So depending on what the instrument error is on the
old and new ASIs, you may find that the indicated airspeed for a given
calibrated airspeed may change. Most ASIs probably have errors There
are two ways to address this:
1. Do a small flight test program with the new ASI to check stall
speeds and any other speeds that interest you, such as best glide
speed, or
2. Make a water manometer and measure the instrument error of each ASI
to see how they compare.
Info on how to make a water manometer:
http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/instcal/instcal.htm
Excel spreadsheet to convert between inches of water and the correct
ASI reading:
http://members.rogers.com/khorton/rvlinks/asi2.zip
My list of links on pitot-static system calibrations:
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/phplinks/index.php?&PID=48
For info, my ASI has instrument errors of 2-3 kts at some speeds. This
seems to be typical. So if one ASI read 3 kt high, and the other one 3
kt low, you would see a change in IAS of 6 kt. But, I've seen reports
of some ASIs with errors of up to 10 kt. The instrument was obviously
not serviceable, but the owner had no way to know it until he had it
checked.
My ASI cal info:
http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/article.php?
story=20040418195119749
Kevin Horton
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Headsets.....again... |
RV-8@yahoogroups.com, rv-list@matronics.com,
vansairforce <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
I just wanted to clarify... I already have a pair of Lightspeed QFR CC
ANR's, and I like them.....but lately some friends of mine have been trying
to get me to try their Bose X sets...
What I really want is one of the lightweight, headsetless (that's my new
word) headsets... I guess I should have left Bose out of the mix...
-Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
<rv-list@matronics.com>; "vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Headsets.....again...
Ok, I know we have been over this before, I just got through ready the
archives...
I am thinking of getting some Bose X headsets, but want to know if anyone
has used any of these others before I spend the $$... I would also like to
know what your old headset was and how they compare...
Bose X (stereo) - www.bose.com - $995
Clarity Aloft (??) - www.clarityaloft.com - $550
Quiet Technologies (stereo) - www.quiettechnologies.com - $335
Panther Electronics (mono) - www.pantherelectronics.com - $599
Thanks in advance!
-Bill VonDane
bill@vondane.com
RV-8A - Colorado Springs
www.rv8a.com
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: TEE for heater |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob <flyboy.bob@gmail.com>
I'm planing to use the "Y" that Van's or ACS sells. Have my "box"
mounted but haven't done the inside plumbing yet.
Regards,
Bob
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:54:34 -0700, sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
> I'm installing my hot-air box on the firewall. I'd like to have it
> connect to a simple tee on the cabin side of the firewall. One side of
> the Tee would go to each side of the plane. My problem is I can't find
> a 2" tee anywhere. Van's has a very fancy tee with 2 flapper valves in
> it, but I don't want the 2 valves or the $90 price tag. I guess I
> could make something, but little projects like this seem to take a lot
> of time.
>
> Does anybody know where I can buy something like this?
> --
> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, firewall
>
>
>
--
Thanks,
Bob
Message 9
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| Subject: | Electric Artificial Horizon for Sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" <tony@lambros.com>
RC Allen electric horizon gyro....looks new, functions new. Chief part number
RCA 26AK4. Purchased new Jan03 $1,695. Needs to be tilted for RV6 ($200) or
mounting wedge can be used. What's it worth?
Tony Marshall
www.lambros.com
P.O. Box 906
Polson, MT 59860
800-432-6828 Office
406-249-0835 Cell
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: well, I guess I'll stir the pot (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>The way I see it with my non electrical mind is the starter contactor setup
>allows you to keep your "large" wires forward of the firewall in an effort
>to reduce noise.
What about the wire from the alternator? Its hot all the time... You
could even go directly from the alternator, running one fat wire for
both the starter and alternator (I'm thinking about doing this on the
F1. If I can ever get some of my other 'projects' out of the way
first.) A friend wired his starter in his F1 without the unnecessary
contactor, now that it is flying the sky-tec starter spins the 540
like mad off of a odyssey battery located in the back. No noise, no
problems.
Since I've got one foot on my soapbox right now, I may as well go on
;) So none of this is directed towards you, Dana.
On this particular F1 the ground is a (choke, gasp) fuselage longeron.
Oh the horror, that he didn't add 7 more lbs to the airframe by
running a ground to the front of the airplane.
If arcing in the starter switch is a concern due to the design of the
of the starter solenoid, the easy solution is to add a 50A fast-acting
diode in series downstream of the starter switch, but I haven't had a
need for it. The diode I have goes from the starter wire to ground to
prevent the back-EMF current of the solenoid from flowing back into
the bus as is the norm for most contactors.
I have a tremendous respect for Electric Bob and have read his book
and when I didn't know better followed his advice, however, I think he
(and for the matter a lot of people in the RV world in the last few
years) win the gold medal for pole-vaulting over mouse turds.
In 600+ hours of flying my RV, the following components have failed in
the electrical system: the Van's el-cheapo old-school
externally-regulated alternator (twice), the rectifier for the
essential-bus feed (once), and at least three nuisance trips of the
fuse to the crowbar OV module. Life is good now that I have installed
a Niagara internally-regulated alternator, removed the external
regulator, the essential bus rectifier, and the crowbar OV module.
Haven't had any trouble since, and all of that happened in the first
200 hours.
I have a jeep that I've owned since new with 250,000 miles on it now.
I've never replaced the starter, or a keyswitch. And I've yet to
find the other starter solenoid, or the fat ground wire running to the
instrument cluster :).
Here's another rhetorical question: Why do we spend $500 for a backup
fuel pump for an injected engine, which only runs roughly 2% of the
time, to back up a $150 engine-driven pump? The engineer in me tells
me I could make the same setup on the lathe with a ball bearing, a
spring, a check valve, some tubing, some bar stock, and a good quality
racing fuel pump for about $100.
I sometimes think that I'm the only one in the world left that has no
interest in having a glass panel or expensive avionics that are
quickly rendered obsolete. 8-12 hours a day in front of a flat-panel
screen is enough for this computer geek. But boy do I love flying
with my RV buddies, doing acro, formation flying, and honing my flying
skills! Van used to say keep it light and simple. It seems that
philosophy is no longer very popular.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying F1 under const.
forever a pragmatist
please do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mike Nellis <mike@bmnellis.com>
Bob doesn't monitor all the lists anymore since the Aeroelectric list
was formed a few years ago. The Aeroelectric List is a great place to
get help with electrical questions. Many highly skilled and qualified
people take part on that list, in addition to Bob. You can forward this
thread to aeroelectric-list@matronics.com and I'm sure you'll get a
quick reply. Better yet just subscribe to the list
http://matronics.com/subscribe
Ron Schreck wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
>
>Excellent point! After I read this post I dove into Bob Nuckolls' "AeroElectric
Connection" and found that ALL of his sample electic wiring schematics have
a starter contactor. I have great respect for "Electric" Bob yet I see your
point as well. I'm hoping Bob will jump on this thread and shed some light on
this issue. Come in Bob!
>
>Ron Schreck
>RV-8
>Gold Hill, NC
>
>
>
>
>>>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place? There's
>>>>
>>>>
> one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
> terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
> then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to prevent
> arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
> one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Mike Nellis
Austin, TX
CMRA #32 Honda RC51
'97 YZF1000
'47 Stinson 108-2; RV6 (Fuselage)
http://bmnellis.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Carburator heat on rvs |
--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Jurotich <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
Carb heat is required on my RV 6A with Lycoming O-360-xxx (new from Van's)
with Ellison Throttle body. It has actually iced up on take off in really
damp conditions. i.e. Dew point only 2 degs above temperature of about 65 F.
Matthew M. Jurotich
NASA/Goddard Space Flight Center
Swales contractor to the
JWST ISIM Systems Engineer
m/c : 443
e-mail mail to: <mjurotich@hst.nasa.gov>
phone : 301-286-5919
fax : 301-286-7021
JWST URL: <http://ngst1.gsfc.nasa.gov
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
If you don't use a separate starter contactor, you will have a huge (i.e.
2AWG) "always hot" wire capable of delivering hundreds of amps going to the
starter, which I personally consider a safety risk. By using the separate
starter contactor, you can keep the starter's power source wire COLD at all
times other than startup cranking.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
Subject: RV-List: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar)
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Schreck" <ronschreck@webkorner.com>
>
> Excellent point! After I read this post I dove into Bob Nuckolls'
"AeroElectric Connection" and found that ALL of his sample electic wiring
schematics have a starter contactor. I have great respect for "Electric"
Bob yet I see your point as well. I'm hoping Bob will jump on this thread
and shed some light on this issue. Come in Bob!
>
> Ron Schreck
> RV-8
> Gold Hill, NC
>
>
> >>> Why do you need another starter contactor in the first place?
There's
> one built into the starter. Disconnect the jumper from the big
> terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter switch,
> then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to
prevent
> arcing in the switch or contactor. I have had this setup since day
> one on my -6 and have never had any trouble with it.
>
> Regards,
> Bob Japundza
> RV-6 flying F1 under const.
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Starter contactor (was Brass/Copper Bus Bar) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> The way I see it with my non electrical mind is the starter contactor
setup
> allows you to keep your "large" wires forward of the firewall in an effort
> to reduce noise. In my setup a 2AWG wire is called out between battery
> contactor/starter contactor and starter sol. Only a 20AWG wire is called
> out going between the main bus bar/push to start button and switch
terminal
> on the starter contactor. Maybe I'm missing something but if I
"Disconnect
> the jumper from the big
> > terminal on the starter, run a wire from it to your starter
switch,
> > then a diode from the starter side of the switch to ground to
> >prevent
> > arcing in the switch or contactor." I've got a big wire
penetrating
> >my firewall where I don't want one.
Dana,
You could still avoid a large wire penetrating/behind the firewall if you
didn't use a separate starter contactor. You would still have the 2AWG wire
running only from the battery contactor to the starter, and the small wire
would run from your starter switch (panel) to the solenoid on the starter
(i.e. Sky-Tec).
As I mentioned in my previous email, the "problem" with doing this is that
the 2AWG wire would be energized any time the master switch was on. Having
such a huge wire be "always hot" is a risk imho.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor heat on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>bertrv6@highstream.net writes:
>What is the practice with carburetor heat, on RV's? on rv6..
I think you should install a good carb heat system on your RV. My suggestion, is
at minimum, install Van's Carb Heat set-up per (plans)**. It is cheap, light
and compact. Even though your RV is experimental, it is a regulatory requirement
for certified aircraft to have Carb heat. I think it is wise to include carb
heat as a required system.
**(Uses a solid #10 threaded push-pull cable for CH cont'l, not the thin wire type,
which will break in 100-200 hours.)
>bertrv6@highstream.net writes:
>I cruise high VFR when I cross the big hills we have out west and, without carb
heat on, >normally see carb air temps about 5 deg C above ambient. Since I
can see what the carb >air temp is, I never use carb heat if it's not needed.
I am not sure what the point is: Clear of clouds, dry air (high altitudes), higher
cruse power and no carb ice. So? Carb ice is possible w/ carb air temp's
between ( -10c to +10c), add moisture, reduced power setting you can get carb
ice. You can find testimonials saying it never happens, as well as those who
have experienced it. Carb ice can, will and does happen in the right conditions,
even in a RV with a Lycoming. Consider it insurance.
Cheers George (RV-4 O-320, RV-7 O-360 project)
---------------------------------
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re:Carb heat on Lycomings |
--> RV-List message posted by: PSPRV6A@aol.com
In almost 30 years of flying a Lycoming-equipped 172, I found slight carb
ice with some frequency, only detected because I had a manifold pressure
gage. You have MINOR ice more often than you realize! All of the carb ice that
could be detected from POWER LOSS was on one trip!
Yet, I always did an ice check before landing, not a good time to be
trouble shooting! Also worth noting, EGT is a good detector of slight icing in
cruise. Venturi ice makes the mixture richer and EGT falls. That richer
mixture initially conceals the small loss of manifold pressure.
Paul S. Petersen, RV6A (90%) with son Eric
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: TEE for heater |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Bend and piece of 2x2" .025 AL 90 degrees. Tack or JB weld it to the 2"
exit tube on the heater box. It will divert the air to each side. Make
sense?
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:54:34 -0700, sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net> wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>>
>> I'm installing my hot-air box on the firewall. I'd like to have it
>> connect to a simple tee on the cabin side of the firewall. One side of
>> the Tee would go to each side of the plane. My problem is I can't find
>> a 2" tee anywhere. Van's has a very fancy tee with 2 flapper valves in
>> it, but I don't want the 2 valves or the $90 price tag. I guess I
>> could make something, but little projects like this seem to take a lot
>> of time.
>>
>> Does anybody know where I can buy something like this?
>> --
>> Tom Sargent, RV-6A, firewall
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Headsets.....again... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross S" <rv7maker@hotmail.com>
Bill,
I have a set of 15XLs for my self and a set of QFR solos for the passenger.
I figured I better get a new set of ANR's due to the RV rumble, I was
thinking about getting a bose X unit, but after demoing, I bough a new set
of lightspeed 3G's and they work great. I put them on in my truck and I
couldn't hear anything, kind of an uneasy feeling! In the plane they are
quiet enough you feel like you can talk in a normal voice to your passenger.
The Cell phone interface is excellent. I called my wife and she figured I
was at the office. If I hadn't needed to respond to the tower I would have
gotten away with the hole deal. I'll give you a call next time I am up and
you can be the judge.
-Ross
RV-7 Driver....finally
>From: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>, rv8-list@matronics.com,
>RV-8@yahoogroups.com, rv-list@matronics.com, vansairforce
><vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Headsets.....again...
>Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:00:53 -0700
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Bill VonDane <bill@vondane.com>
>
>I just wanted to clarify... I already have a pair of Lightspeed QFR CC
>ANR's, and I like them.....but lately some friends of mine have been trying
>to get me to try their Bose X sets...
>
>What I really want is one of the lightweight, headsetless (that's my new
>word) headsets... I guess I should have left Bose out of the mix...
>
>-Bill
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>To: <rv8-list@matronics.com>; <RV-8@yahoogroups.com>;
><rv-list@matronics.com>; "vansairforce" <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Headsets.....again...
>
>
>Ok, I know we have been over this before, I just got through ready the
>archives...
>
>I am thinking of getting some Bose X headsets, but want to know if anyone
>has used any of these others before I spend the $$... I would also like to
>know what your old headset was and how they compare...
>
>Bose X (stereo) - www.bose.com - $995
>Clarity Aloft (??) - www.clarityaloft.com - $550
>Quiet Technologies (stereo) - www.quiettechnologies.com - $335
>Panther Electronics (mono) - www.pantherelectronics.com - $599
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>-Bill VonDane
>bill@vondane.com
>RV-8A - Colorado Springs
>www.rv8a.com
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor heat on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Jones" <rv_8pilot@hotmail.com>
Carb ice is possible over a much larger temp range than -10 to 10-deg C.
I've posted this carb ice link before. Here it is again.
I have had one significant instance of carb ice after about 700 hrs in my
carbureted -320 powered -8. As I recall, it occurred at about 65-deg F.
http://www.ez.org/carb_ice.htm
Bryan Jones
>I am not sure what the point is: Clear of clouds, dry air (high altitudes),
>higher cruse power and no carb ice. So? Carb ice is possible w/ carb air
>temp's between ( -10c to +10c), add moisture, reduced power setting you can
>get carb ice. You can find testimonials saying it never happens, as well
>as those who have experienced it. Carb ice can, will and does happen in the
>right conditions, even in a RV with a Lycoming. Consider it insurance.
>
>Cheers George (RV-4 O-320, RV-7 O-360 project)
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jon Croke" <jon@joncroke.com>
This is an announcement that www.HomebuiltHELP.com has just completed production, and the release of their latest DVD video presentation: "How to License Your Homebuilt Aircraft". (for the U.S.)
To the best of my knowledge, this is the first comprehensive DVD video that explains
in detail the complete licensing process for experimental amateur built
aircraft - showing what/how/when to fill out the forms, the inspection process,
and also demonstrating new capabilities such as reserving an N number by going
online and using the FAA website.
I'll leave it at that, as full details are available at the www.HomebuiltHELP.com website.
Thanks!
Jon
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Headsets.....again... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Good discussion....But posting across multiple lists is poor netiquette.
Pick your favorite ONE. None of us needs four copies of this topic.
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
do not archive
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
> To: <rv8-list@matronics.com>; <RV-8@yahoogroups.com>;
> <rv-list@matronics.com>; <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Headsets.....again...
>
[snip]
Message 22
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| Subject: | Lycoming - tractor engine or turbine smooth? |
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
The only data on smoothness of 3 vs 2 blades has been subjective. The best documented
tests came from Van's and Randy @
http://www.rv-8.com/Prop.htm
Most of the data is geared towards performance. What I gather Pros for 3 blades
are: slightly better climb, better prop tip ground clearance and less takeoff
noise. As far as vibration the best of the 2 blades were equivalent to 3 blades.
The cons of 3 blades are they cost more, weigh more and have less cruise
and top speed.
I think a Lyc is going to shake and there is only so much a prop will do. Turbine
smooth? From what I heard, material of the blades has more to do with smoothness,
and the smoothest props are made from "God's Composite," Wood. It would
be nice to have actual flight test measurements with accelerometers vs the "seat-O-pant"
measurement. A well balanced prop is a well balanced prop. The big
boys (large real turbines) have more blades to absorb more shaft HP and make
it quite, not smoothness.
Someone made a comment about props flying off, 2 vs 3, and the 2 blade would flop
around and the 3 blade would not? Not sure what that means, but I have seen
2 blade props come off model planes and go straight and far directly in the
line of thrust. Balanced is balanced.
Cheers G, RV-7 O-360 Hartzell (2 blades - teeth shaking, just a joke ;-)
---------------------------------
Message 23
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
A while back I had a link to a super nice lighted panel which I have apparantly
lost. It was a laser etched plastic overlay which made the whole thing light
up like a sports car dash. Anybody know where on the web it is? Thanks in advance...
Evan Johnson
www.evansaviationproducts.com
(530)247-0375
(530)351-1776 cell
do not archive
Message 24
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--> RV-List message posted by: GMC <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Hi Jeff
Agreed that the Trutrak information is confusing, even my Pictorial Pilot
installation & users guide, is not very enlightening.
The Pictorial Pilot shows a GPS track on the display, and if there is no
valid GPS signal the display is blank.
Without GPS signal the Pictorial Pilot will be in "heading hold" using a
built in magnetometer to stabilize the gyros. My guess is that the built in
magnetometer is not accurate enough to show actual heading information. I
assume that their other autopilots and the ADI are similar.
In my discussion with Trutrak yesterday they said that if there was enough
customer interest in heading information it could be added, so add your name
(with mine) to their list.
I agree with others that heading information has become redundant for VFR
but it is still necessary for IFR flight.
George in Langley BC
--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point <jpoint@mindspring.com>
Interesting. I went back and re-read the ad for this unit, and it is
somewhat confusing. The display looks like the heading display in the
Digitrak models.
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: lighted panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: james freeman <flyeyes@mac.com>
That was probably Paul Besing's RV6, done by Steve Davis. I don't have
the url handy, but Paul monitors the list
On Jan 27, 2005, at 12:55 PM, Evan and Megan Johnson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson"
> <evmeg@snowcrest.net>
>
> A while back I had a link to a super nice lighted panel which I have
> apparantly lost. It was a laser etched plastic overlay which made the
> whole thing light up like a sports car dash. Anybody know where on the
> web it is? Thanks in advance...
>
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: lighted panel |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 1/27/05 1:33:48 PM Central Standard Time, flyeyes@mac.com
writes:
> That was probably Paul Besing's RV6, done by Steve Davis. I don't have
> the url handy, but Paul monitors the list
>>>>
Steve cut my panel and did a beautiful job, and also knows where to get some
kick-butt BBQ! Mine was not laser cut, but reversed-engraved from the back,
and I added LEDs for backlighting.
http://members.aol.com/panelcut/
Mark Phillips
Message 27
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|
"rv-list" <rv-list@matronics.com>, <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
| Subject: | Re: Headsets.....again... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
Sorry but I must humbly disagree. While gathering data or asking questions
on any RV subject I want as many opinions / observations as possible. If you
want to limit the number of messages received, pick your "favorite ONE". By
the way you forgot the Rocket list, 'cause we're RV's too. We're just on
steroids. 8*)
Keep up the posts Bill, I have a delete button. Do Not Archive. KABONG
SoCalRV, HRII
---- Original Message -----
From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Headsets.....again...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
>
>
> Good discussion....But posting across multiple lists is poor netiquette.
> Pick your favorite ONE. None of us needs four copies of this topic.
>
>
> -
> Larry Bowen
> Larry@BowenAero.com
> http://BowenAero.com
> do not archive
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Carburetor heat on RVs |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Weiler" <dcw@nomadwi.com>
Just to add another 2 cents worth to the carb heat issue. After 40 years of
flying and 4000 hours of dual given, I consider the use of CH very wise
insurance in all aircraft so equipped. Granted I agree with Cy that it is
much less likely in Lycoming engines due do to the intake configuration but
certainly there is no harm in it.
BUT, I have gotten carb ice in my 0-360 RV-4 on a 50 degree day with rather
damp conditions. A noticeable loss of rpm corrected by the application of
carb heat (this was in cruise by the way). I still recall the successful
forced landing of a C-172 at night (in the back parking lot of a shopping
mall) years ago in Dayton where I was instructing. The student claimed his
instructor said to never use carb heat... it was unnecessary in a Lycoming
powered Cessna 172. Well he proved otherwise and got away with it.
Doug Weiler
RV-4
Hudson, WI
Message 29
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| Subject: | Sennheiser Headsets..... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" <winterland@rkymtnhi.com>
While we are talking about headsets, does anybody have anything good or bad
to say about Sennheisers. We are looking to pick up the line, mainly as a
request from one of our dealers. He says they are as good as the Bose
products but for a bunch less money. Anybody want to agree with him?
Andy
Builder's Bookstore
www.Buildersbooks.com
PilotsBooks
www.Pilotsbooks.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
<rv-list@matronics.com>; <vansairforce@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Headsets.....again...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
>
> Sorry but I must humbly disagree. While gathering data or asking questions
> on any RV subject I want as many opinions / observations as possible. If
you
> want to limit the number of messages received, pick your "favorite ONE".
By
> the way you forgot the Rocket list, 'cause we're RV's too. We're just on
> steroids. 8*)
> Keep up the posts Bill, I have a delete button. Do Not Archive. KABONG
> SoCalRV, HRII
>
> ---- Original Message -----
> From: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@bowenaero.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Headsets.....again...
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
> >
> >
> > Good discussion....But posting across multiple lists is poor netiquette.
> > Pick your favorite ONE. None of us needs four copies of this topic.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Larry Bowen
> > Larry@BowenAero.com
> > http://BowenAero.com
> > do not archive
> >
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Bill VonDane" <bill@vondane.com>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Sennheiser Headsets..... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" <bo124rs@hotmail.com>
>From: "Aircraft Technical Book Company" <winterland@rkymtnhi.com>
>>
>While we are talking about headsets, does anybody have anything good or bad
>to say about Sennheisers. We are looking to pick up the line, mainly as a
>request from one of our dealers. He says they are as good as the Bose
>products but for a bunch less money. Anybody want to agree with him?
>
>Andy
>Builder's Bookstore
>www.Buildersbooks.com
Andy, to make it short and sweet...................YEP, I love mine. Great
noise reduction, comfortable, quality mic and worth what I paid for them.
Dana Overall
Richmond, KY i39
RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic"
Finish kit
13B Rotary. Hangar flying my Dynon.
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero1.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/aero3.jpg
http://rvflying.tripod.com/blackrudder.jpg
do not archive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
0.00 FROM_HAS_MIXED_NUMS From: contains numbers mixed in with letters
--> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Where have anyone with XM weather put their WORX satellite receiver box? I
am about to "permanently" moont mine, but before I start drilling holes I
wondered if there was a better idea out there in RV-land. Mine is an RV6A.
John Salida, CO
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
I put mine in an old Lowrance GPS case with a USB hub and a 12-30volt power
supply for my Fujitsu tablet PC.
I made mine portable, because once you fly with WX Worx you will NEVER want
to fly anything very far from home without it.
I have tried the PDA versions of this product, and I think the Tablet
version is a better solution in many ways.
XM weather is a bigger deal than GPS. 70% of aircraft accidents are weather
related. As nice as GPS is, not many accidents are caused because people
got lost. XM Weather makes flying more dependable, and safer.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
WX Worx user since August
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
Subject: RV-List: Anywhere Map with XM Weather
> --> RV-List message posted by: "John" <n1cxo320@salidaco.com>
>
> Where have anyone with XM weather put their WORX satellite receiver box? I
> am about to "permanently" moont mine, but before I start drilling holes I
> wondered if there was a better idea out there in RV-land. Mine is an RV6A.
>
> John Salida, CO
>
>
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: James Freeman <flyeyes@mac.com>
On Jan 27, 2005, at 5:35 PM, Doug Rozendaal wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
> I put mine in an old Lowrance GPS case with a USB hub and a 12-30volt
> power
> supply for my Fujitsu tablet PC.
>
> I made mine portable, because once you fly with WX Worx you will NEVER
> want
> to fly anything very far from home without it.
>
> I have tried the PDA versions of this product, and I think the Tablet
> version is a better solution in many ways.
>
>
Doug, I have to second this, except that I'm currently demoing a
bluetooth/PDA version to see if I like it. I have been flying with the
WxWorks/Fujitsu since last spring and feel naked going cross country
without it.
I was very interested in the PDA version since my RV8 should be flying
soon, although I've been more than happy with the tablet in a four
place aircraft. Do you find the tablet manageable in your RV4?
TIA
James Freeman
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>
> XM weather is a bigger deal than GPS. 70% of aircraft accidents are weather
> related. As nice as GPS is, not many accidents are caused because people
> got lost. XM Weather makes flying more dependable, and safer.
Doug, I agree. I suspect the future will show that XM weather will be
regarded as one of the greatest breakthroughs *ever* for aviation.
I'm wondering if it will be this year or next when Garmin, Lowrance,
etc, will introduce a handheld GPS with an XM receiver in the same box.....
Sam Buchanan
Message 35
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| Subject: | Gillespie Field/San Diego |
0.10 DRUGS_ERECTILE Refers to an erectile drug
--> RV-List message posted by: Louis Willig <larywil@comcast.net>
Hi gang,
Does anyone on the list have intimate knowledge about Gillespie field in
San Diego? I may be moving to the area of S/D and need to find a nice spot
for my RV-4. An affordable hangar would be great, but perhaps the moderate
weather would permit me to tie down outside. This will be a very long term
move ( as in retirement). Is Gillespie a good choice? And would one be able
to find a hangar or tiedown?
Any other ideas about fields or airparks in the Southern Cal area would be
very much appreciated. And of course, e-mail me offline if your post seems
un-RV-related.
Louis
-
Louis I Willig
1640 Oakwood Dr.
Penn Valley, PA 19072
610 668-4964
RV-4, N180PF "Miss Viagra"
190HP IO-360, C/S prop
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
Hi Sam,
Have you looked at this recent Garmin offering?
http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600a/
Jim in Kelowna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Buchanan" <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Anywhere Map with XM Weather
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
> Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>
>>
>> XM weather is a bigger deal than GPS. 70% of aircraft accidents are
>> weather
>> related. As nice as GPS is, not many accidents are caused because people
>> got lost. XM Weather makes flying more dependable, and safer.
>
>
> Doug, I agree. I suspect the future will show that XM weather will be
> regarded as one of the greatest breakthroughs *ever* for aviation.
>
> I'm wondering if it will be this year or next when Garmin, Lowrance,
> etc, will introduce a handheld GPS with an XM receiver in the same
> box.....
>
> Sam Buchanan
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Lycoming - tractor engine or turbine smooth? |
--> RV-List message posted by: LeastDrag93066@aol.com
The primary vibration is being transmitted through the airframe by the
engine. There may be second vibrations as many have suggested.
Scott's description below seems to be the best way to visualize the cause of
the vibration.
Regardless of the engine having 4 cylinders or 6 cylinders (my testing was
done on both), I was told that there is a second order harmonic with a 2 blade
propeller that is not present with a 3 blade propeller. All my testing did
was confirm that the second order harmonic was there for the 2 blade
propellers, and was not there for the 3 blade propellers. And that the difference
in
vibration level was significant, rather than insignificant.
All propellers tested were from certified propeller manufacturers. The 3
blade propellers were lighter than the 2 blade propellers. Yes. 3 blades
lighter than 2 blade. (Actually, one of the 2 blade propellers weighed about
the
same as the 3 blade propeller.)
(I have heard that the 4 blade propeller is smoother than the 3 blade
propeller. However, this is still a future project.) :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
PS I only take the digest on this list, so my response is usually slow.
In a message dated 01/27/2005 12:00:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,
rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski
<bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
3 blade props are always smoother. 2 blade props are not naturally
balanced, meaning, spin up a 2 blade prop and let it fly off the mounting
flange, and it will tumble around and drop to the ground. Do the same thing
with a 3 blade prop and it will take off and go much further with no
tumbling before dropping to the ground. Does this make sense?
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Jim Jewell wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>
> Hi Sam,
>
> Have you looked at this recent Garmin offering?
> http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600a/
Yes, I have seen that one, but it is just a GPS map repackaged in a Palm
platform...still old tech, just an attempt to outmaneuver AnyWhereMap.
What is going to be cool is having a portable GPS color map with terrain
database packaged with an XM realtime weather receiver.....all in one
little box. Bet it happens inside of 24 months!
Sam Buchanan
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott VanArtsdalen <svanarts@yahoo.com>
I bet I bet the Raven has it first. That would be a real shot in the
arm for Control Vision.
Sam Buchanan wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
>
>Jim Jewell wrote:
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" <jjewell@telus.net>
>>
>>Hi Sam,
>>
>>Have you looked at this recent Garmin offering?
>>http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600a/
>>
>>
>
>
>Yes, I have seen that one, but it is just a GPS map repackaged in a Palm
>platform...still old tech, just an attempt to outmaneuver AnyWhereMap.
>
>What is going to be cool is having a portable GPS color map with terrain
>database packaged with an XM realtime weather receiver.....all in one
>little box. Bet it happens inside of 24 months!
>
>Sam Buchanan
>
>
>
>
Message 40
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| Subject: | Anywhere Map with XM Weather |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
> Where have anyone with XM weather put their WORX satellite
> receiver box? I
> am about to "permanently" moont mine, but before I start
> drilling holes I
> wondered if there was a better idea out there in RV-land.
> Mine is an RV6A.
>
> John Salida, CO
John, I too am pondering that question. I think I may make a little bracket
which clamps on to the flange on the top of the seat back, onto which I can
fasten the gps and XM antenna. The WXworx receiver will velcro to the aft
side of the seat back, at the floor level.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A 569 hours
Maple Grove, MN
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Headsets.....again... |
--> RV-List message posted by: "H.Ivan Haecker" <baremetl@gvtc.com>
Scott,
I modified my passive Peltors with the Headset, Inc. ANR kit about 5yrs ago
and they have worked well the whole time. I can't compare to others ANRs as
these are the only ones I have ever owned. I have a second passive Peltor
that is unmodified which I carry for the passenger, and there is no
comparison to the improvement that the kit makes.
Ivan Haecker RV-4 1135hrs S. Cen. TX
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott@telus.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Headsets.....again...
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Scott Jackson" <jayeandscott@telus.net>
>
>> Anyone modified their passive Peltors to active with Headsets, Inc. ANR
kit?
> Scott in VAncouver
> do not archive
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Brass/Copper bus bar |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 1/26/05 11:37:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
<< This is not a bus bar in the usual sense, like one that connects a row
of circuit breakers together. >>
Dan: Got it. You are connecting the master relay to the starter relay. I
missed that distinction in the original post. I used a short length of #4
welding cable for that purpose. As several others have already stated, brass or
copper, your choice. Either will work just as well for that purpose.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, flying, but also grounded because of the lousy weather in my assigned
test area.
Message 43
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| Subject: | Van's deluxe tailwheel spring set |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
Has anyone installed one of the so called "deluxe tail wheel springs" that
Van's is offering? From the picture in the on-line catalog I can't tell how
they are installed or how they work.
Harry Crosby
Pleasanton, California
RV-6, flying!
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