---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 03/25/05: 22 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:05 AM - Re: Australian RV accidents (was Canopy Breaker Survival Gear) (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 2. 05:26 AM - Re: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have (Alex Peterson) 3. 09:32 AM - Vibration/Landoll ring (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 4. 09:47 AM - Re: Vibration/Landoll ring (Scott Vanartsdalen) 5. 10:02 AM - Re: Vibration/Landoll ring (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 6. 10:07 AM - Re: Vibration/Landoll ring (Jeff Point) 7. 10:09 AM - Re: Vibration/Landoll ring (Scott Vanartsdalen) 8. 12:29 PM - Re: Wing incidence (rv6n6r@comcast.net) 9. 02:12 PM - Re: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have (Hal Kempthorne) 10. 02:50 PM - Anyone besides me having a problem (LarryRobertHelming) 11. 03:08 PM - Re: Anyone besides me having a problem (Scott VanArtsdalen) 12. 03:41 PM - Re: Anyone besides me having a problem (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 13. 03:53 PM - Re: Anyone besides me having a problem (Darrell Reiley) 14. 04:19 PM - Air in brake line (PeterHunt1@aol.com) 15. 05:35 PM - Re: Anyone besides me having a problem (Bill Schlatterer) 16. 05:43 PM - Re:Air inbrake lines (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 17. 05:59 PM - Re:Vibration/Landol Ring (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 18. 06:12 PM - Re: Air in brake line (Walter Tondu) 19. 06:53 PM - Re: Re:Vibration/Landol Ring () 20. 07:30 PM - Re: Air in brake line (sportav8r@aol.com) 21. 10:59 PM - Re: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have (HCRV6@aol.com) 22. 11:09 PM - Re: Air in brake line (HCRV6@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:28 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Australian RV accidents (was Canopy Breaker Survival Gear) --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Listers, While 26 Gs sounds like a lot to a pilot, in an accident where the forces last only a fraction of a second, the human body can stand twice that while distributed across the seat belt and harness. I should qualify that by stating that the crotch strap is needed because of the rearward attachment of Vans lap belts. I'm an old race car driver (drove race cars when I was younger!) and have hit the wall many times, and I still have all my organs! Now, an RV or any airplane for that matter is simply not as crashworthy as a race car. That's a fact. Compare the structures. To rationalize that it is as crashworthy as necessary to save the pilot just is not true. Dan Hopper Walton, IN RV-7A (Flying until it went into the paint shop.) In a message dated 3/25/05 1:39:17 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, oll@tpg.com.au writes: --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Olsen" From my reading. As a result of these accidents (RV6, RV3) a report surfaced questioning the low speed aerodynamic characteristics, whilst making a case for the need to strengthen the canopy deck rails of the RV's. Modifications were also engineered. http://www.saoginc.com/%5Cnewsletters%5C112002.htm This was taken up with Vans who subsequently carried out testing on the fuselage of a stock built RV-6. Results:- Fuselage structure withstood a static load of 26 Gs with no obvious deformation. (a dynamic load of 26 Gs is said to cause irreparable damage to body organs.) Article including a letter from Vans explaining the above was published in the June/July 2004 edition of the Sports Aircraft Association of Australia Inc 'Airsport Magazine' Paul Olsen SAAA 04689 RV7 QB(emp) Queensland Australia ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:26:07 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" > --> > > Wow!......9.3 hours in an RV 6 will get some miles under your > butt.Are you just having fun or is it business? Evan Johnson > www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell > The pleasure trip was 1260 n.m. to be exact. We left Fort Myers FL at 0800 local, and landed in Minneapolis at 1745 local, elapsed time 10:45. We stopped at Lagrange GA and Bloomington IN for fuel. I would guess the autopilot flew 98% of the route. Each stop takes about 45 minutes shutdown to startup, average ground speed for the elapsed time was 117 knots, average ground speed compared to Hobbs was 135 knots, and average ground speed while in the air was 150 knots. I fly at about 55% power with a 180hp, 7.3 GPH, TAS about 160 knots. There were several periods where we slowed down to about 100 knots due to visibilities in the 3 mile range, which reduced our average speed a little. Alex Peterson RV6-A 602 hours Maple Grove, MN http://www.home.earthlink.net/~alexpeterson/ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:04 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Vibration/Landoll ring --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy -list, Since painting, I've had had a very noticeable vibration between about 1000-1700 rpms on my 150 hp -6A that smoothes out nicely above about 2000 rpms to where it is not noticeable. Speaking with the manufacturer of my prop extension this morning, he suggested that most imbalances can be attributed to the spinner, which would jibe with it just being painted. Any coroborating experience out there? Should (or can) the spinner be balanced independant of the engine as well as in combination? I also mentioned adding a Landoll ring (the simple weight ring- not the damper) and he mentioned he had heard of a few flywheel failures from the additional load on this cast part- I have never heard this before and am curious if there is any knowledge of this from anyone on the list? I plan to remove the spinner and see if this is in fact where the new vibration is from, and if so will get dynamic balancing, but unsure about installing the Landoll ring - (yes I have seem many references over the years on the list and in archive of pros/cons on these) Thanks! Mark Phillips N51PW ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:47:15 AM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Vibration/Landoll ring --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen What kind of prop do you have? If it's wood then adding a little weight to the ring gear does have some beneficial flywheel charactaristics. I added Landoll's harmonic dampener to my ring gear. It smoothes out vibrations you would normally feel at cruise, not necessarily at low rpms. Though it might change vibration you feel in the RPM range you mention. It would probably change the frequency of the vibration but not get rid of it totally. --- Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > > Howdy -list, > > Since painting, I've had had a very noticeable vibration between about > 1000-1700 rpms on my 150 hp -6A that smoothes out nicely above about 2000 rpms to > where it is not noticeable. Speaking with the manufacturer of my prop extension > this morning, he suggested that most imbalances can be attributed to the > spinner, which would jibe with it just being painted. Any coroborating experience > out there? Should (or can) the spinner be balanced independant of the engine > as well as in combination? > > I also mentioned adding a Landoll ring (the simple weight ring- not the > damper) and he mentioned he had heard of a few flywheel failures from the > additional load on this cast part- I have never heard this before and am curious if > there is any knowledge of this from anyone on the list? > > I plan to remove the spinner and see if this is in fact where the new > vibration is from, and if so will get dynamic balancing, but unsure about installing > the Landoll ring - (yes I have seem many references over the years on the list > and in archive of pros/cons on these) > > Thanks! > Mark Phillips N51PW > > > > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:48 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Vibration/Landoll ring --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 03/25/2005 11:48:07 AM Central Standard Time, svanarts@yahoo.com writes: What kind of prop do you have? >>> Hi Scott- it's a Catto 3-blade - do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:07:15 AM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Vibration/Landoll ring --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Hi Mark, Curious what it is you plan to accomplish by adding the Landoll weight ring? The purpose of this ring (not the harmonic balancer) is two fold- add weight out at the nose for aft CG issues, and add weight to the flywheel for better flywheel inertia. Both of these are common problems with wood props (which I have) which is what the steel ring is intended for. I don't think it does much if anything in the way of smoothing out vibrations. FWIW I've nver heard of any flywheels disintegrating because of the Landoll ring. Have you tried running up, or even flying, without the spinner to see if that really is the cause of the vibrations? Jeff Point > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 10:09:45 AM PST US From: Scott Vanartsdalen Subject: Re: RV-List: Vibration/Landoll ring --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Vanartsdalen Excellent choice! I have a Catto 2 blade. If it were me I'd get the full harmonic dampener. Your already smooth running engine will be smootherer. --- Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > > In a message dated 03/25/2005 11:48:07 AM Central Standard Time, > svanarts@yahoo.com writes: > What kind of prop do you have? > >>> > Hi Scott- it's a Catto 3-blade - do not archive > > > > > > > -- Scott VanArtsdalen RV-4 N311SV, FLYING!! When a man does all he can though it succeeds not well, blame not him that did it." -- George Washington ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:29:37 PM PST US From: rv6n6r@comcast.net Subject: RV-List: Re: Wing incidence 0.00 FROM_HAS_MIXED_NUMS From: contains numbers mixed in with letters 1.78 FROM_HAS_MIXED_NUMS3 From: contains numbers mixed in with letters --> RV-List message posted by: rv6n6r@comcast.net Bob said: > The incidence change was done > to preserve the light aileron forces by not squeezing the light > aileron, which in effect makes the ailerons heavier in feel. [snip] > I do agree its simple to squeeze the ailerons, but all that may do is > cover up the symptoms of a mis-rigged airplane. Or vice versa. The technique for 'fixing' a heavy wing isn't just a matter of squeezing the light aileron. The aileron surfaces are meant to be flat from the leading to trailing edge bend, and any variation in this along the length will cause a "heavy" (or light) wing. It's common for ailerons to start out with convex or concave spots, and often just straightening those out is enough to fix the problem. Only after doing that should one think about going back and making further adjustments. And even then there's always going to be some slight variation, and it takes such a small tweak to change it, that IMHO messing with the wing incidence should only be tried as a fix for a heavy wing after it's been determined that it would take an overtly NON-flat aileron to fix it. Caveat: all I know about it is with regards to RVs, not Rockets. There could be something there that I'm missing... Randall Henderson RV-6 Bob said: The incidence change was done to preserve the light aileron forces by not squeezing the light aileron, which in effect makes the ailerons heavier in feel. [snip] I do agree its simple to squeeze the ailerons, but all that may do is cover up the symptoms of a mis-rigged airplane. Or vice versa. The technique for 'fixing' a heavy wing isn't just a matter of squeezing the light aileron. The aileron surfaces are meant to be flat from the leading to trailing edge bend, and any variation in this along the length will cause a "heavy" (or light) wing. It's common for ailerons to start out with convex or concave spots, and often just straightening those out is enough to fix the problem. Only after doing that should one think about going back and making further adjustments. And even then there's always going to be some slight variation, and it takes such a small tweak to change it, that IMHO messing with the wing incidence should only be tried as a fix for a heavy wing after it's been determined that it would take an overtly NON-flat aileron to fix it. Caveat: all I know about it is with regards to RVs, not Rockets. There could be something there that I'm missing... Randall Henderson RV-6 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:12:04 PM PST US From: Hal Kempthorne Subject: Re: RV-List: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have --> RV-List message posted by: Hal Kempthorne If you only fly VFR, autopilot is only a convenience but if you fly IFR it is an essential piece of equipment, especially in responsive aircraft like RV's and Bonanzas and Debonairs. By the way, my Debonair is for sale -- www.clikset.com hal N7HK RV6a 160 hrs. Fred Stucklen wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Fred Stucklen" Paul, I used to feel this way too, but, as I get older, I'm finding it a lot more enjoyable on long cross country trips to turn on the autopilot and enjoy the ride. After two short stops, and 8 hours in the air, being "fresh" enough to be able to complete a 40 knot 90* crosswind at the destination is enough reason for an autopilot.... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 375+ Hrs RV-6A N925RV 2008 Hrs From: "Valovich, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" I'm in the avionics dreaming stage of my RV-8A construction. I'm debating the advantages of an autopilot - initially, based on my 4500 hours in A-4's without an autopilot and acceptance that stabilized wing trim was always an impossible dream, I felt that an autopilot wasn't worth the hassle. I plan to do a lot of cross country flying, but I'm also one of those guys who doesn't defer to automobile cruise control. Anyone have biased opinions about RV autopilots? Paul Valovich RV-8A QB Ridgecrest, CA ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:22 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" with getting your rv-list posts daily. Seems they quit on 3-16-05. Matt says he has me on the list and is sending them. do not archive Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:12 PM PST US From: "Scott VanArtsdalen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "Scott VanArtsdalen" No. In fact I was just thinking about how much traffic has picked up on the list. I've received a lot more messages lately. -----Original Message----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Sent: 3/25/05 2:45:25 PM To: "rv-list@matronics.com" Subject: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" with getting your rv-list posts daily. Seems they quit on 3-16-05. Matt says he has me on the list and is sending them. do not archive Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up [Message truncated. Tap Edit->Mark for Download to get remaining portion.] ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:57 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Nope, coming through just fine. Make sure your email software or ISP are not filtering it as SPAM. Michael Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of LarryRobertHelming Subject: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" with getting your rv-list posts daily. Seems they quit on 3-16-05. Matt says he has me on the list and is sending them. do not archive Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:23 PM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley All is well here, on overload can't read them fast enough.... LarryRobertHelming wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" with getting your rv-list posts daily. Seems they quit on 3-16-05. Matt says he has me on the list and is sending them. do not archive Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A #70125 N622DR (reserved) --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:27 PM PST US From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Air in brake line --> RV-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com I just filled my dual (pilot and passenger) brake system and have a one inch air bubble in one of the crossover tubes. Peddles feel solid, but it seems to me all air should be out of the system. I know there is a discussion in the archives, but I just cannot find it. What say you? Pete in Clearwater RV-6, N216PH All electric IRF panel ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:00 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Seems like I'm missing all the RV7 and RV-List stuff since about that time as well. Bill S 7a Ark -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of LarryRobertHelming Subject: RV-List: Anyone besides me having a problem --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" with getting your rv-list posts daily. Seems they quit on 3-16-05. Matt says he has me on the list and is sending them. do not archive Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:07 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re:Air inbrake lines --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com I had to bleed the last few bubbles out of our RV-4 brake lines by putting a container under the fitting and loosening the nut to let the air leak out. You have to push on the pedal to get pressure to force the air out. I also built a baby food jar with a small plastic tube in the top so I could catch the fluid coming out of the resevoir. I could alse pressurize the jar to bleed back down. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:13 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re:Vibration/Landol Ring --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com Like Scott, I put on the Landol Harmonic Dampener with my Pacesetter wood prop. It smoothed out the vibration I had at cruise,the only range where I had the vibration. I added the aerobatic ring for added strength. I really like it better with the dampener,idle is much smoother too. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:12:58 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: Air in brake line --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 03/25 7:17, PeterHunt1@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com > > I just filled my dual (pilot and passenger) brake system and have a one inch > air bubble in one of the crossover tubes. Peddles feel solid, but it seems to > me all air should be out of the system. I know there is a discussion in the > archives, but I just cannot find it. What say you? Keep pumping those brakes while you pump fluid into the line at the wheel. Can be done by one person, but easier with two. Eventually, they all come out. You just need a way to siphon the extra fluid out of the reservoir as you pump fluid in to keep from overflowing... -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:37 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: RV-List: Re:Vibration/Landol Ring --> RV-List message posted by: Bob; I am sorry, but I can't resist commenting on your last line. How many Real Aviators who Fly Tail draggers have ever flown a REAL Tail dragger? I once owned a DH82A Dehavilland Tiger Moth. It had no brakes and no tail wheel. The "steerable" skid on the tail was the brake. Hence it was a "REAL" Tail dragger! By the way the airspeed indicator was a flap with a scale, located on the left wing strut. Low and Slo..... :) Bud Silvers Building RV-8 Colorado Springs, CO Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:23 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Air in brake line --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com I used a tube (clear polyethylene from hardware store) to conduct brake fluid from the (opened) drain fitting on the slave cylinder back up to the reservoir on the firewall; then pumped the brakes by foot repeatedly until the bubbles were all purged out. The fluid just goes round and round and the bubbles escape inside the reservoir. Simple and one-man procedure. Never had much success trying to retrograde fill the system from below, though that's what most seem to recommend. Encountered a check-valve problem, most likely. -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: PeterHunt1@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Air in brake line --> RV-List message posted by: PeterHunt1@aol.com I just filled my dual (pilot and passenger) brake system and have a one inch air bubble in one of the crossover tubes. Peddles feel solid, but it seems to me all air should be out of the system. I know there is a discussion in the archives, but I just cannot find it. What say you? Pete in Clearwater RV-6, N216PH All electric IRF panel ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:59:30 PM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Autopilot - To Have or Not to Have --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 3/24/05 4:16:01 PM Pacific Standard Time, cwcrane@gbronline.com writes: > < using > one of the setup items. >> > > I think this may be my problem. Several other listers have mentioned the > same thing. I'll find our tomorrow. Thanks for the help. Harry ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:51 PM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Air in brake line --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 3/25/05 4:20:28 PM Pacific Standard Time, PeterHunt1@aol.com writes: > < inch > air bubble in one of the crossover tubes>> Pete: I initially had the same size bubble at the top of one of the crossover tubes. I re-bled the brakes twice trying to get it out and finally said the heck with it because the brakes were rock solid. After 50 hours the bubble has gotten smaller (?) and the brakes work fine. Harry Crosby RV-6, 50+ hours