---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/10/05:62 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Mickey Coggins) 2. 02:50 AM - Mufflers on Rv's (Charles Heathco) 3. 03:40 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Richard Bibb) 4. 04:18 AM - Re: Mufflers on Rv's (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 5. 05:27 AM - Re: Dimple Dies - regular vs. springback (LarryRobertHelming) 6. 05:51 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Darrell Reiley) 7. 06:17 AM - OFF THE TOPIC: Young Eagle Credits (Nightingale Michael) 8. 06:30 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Scott Bilinski) 9. 07:02 AM - Re: Re: Rude RVers (Sam Buchanan) 10. 07:11 AM - Re: Re: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question (Kevin Williams) 11. 07:59 AM - Sources for electrical system design (Paul Folbrecht) 12. 08:08 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Paul Folbrecht) 13. 08:37 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 14. 08:40 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Jerry Grimmonpre) 15. 08:55 AM - Re: Sources for electrical system design (Dan Brown) 16. 09:05 AM - Re: Re: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the (Scott Bilinski) 17. 09:07 AM - Re: Re: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question (Dan Checkoway) 18. 09:20 AM - Re: Duct Tape (Stephanie Marshall) 19. 09:36 AM - Re: Duct Tape (Marty) 20. 09:43 AM - Re: Mufflers on Rv's (Darrell Reiley) 21. 10:00 AM - Re: Sources for electrical system design (Dan Checkoway) 22. 10:01 AM - Re: Duct Tape (Kendel McCarley) 23. 10:04 AM - Re: Sources for electrical system design (Glaeser, Dennis A) 24. 10:06 AM - Re: Mufflers on Rv's (Larry Bowen) 25. 10:36 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (Scott Bilinski) 26. 11:02 AM - Re: Re:Dimple Dies-regular vs. springback (MLWynn@aol.com) 27. 11:02 AM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Darrell Reiley) 28. 11:12 AM - Re: Duct Tape (Walter Tondu) 29. 11:17 AM - Brown Tools (Stephanie Marshall) 30. 11:35 AM - Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) () 31. 11:41 AM - Uneven RV6 bottom cowl () 32. 12:06 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 33. 12:07 PM - Mogas warning (James Ochs) 34. 12:23 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Darrell Reiley) 35. 12:50 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (James H Nelson) 36. 01:11 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Jeff Point) 37. 01:11 PM - Re: Re:Dimple Dies-regular vs. springback (Glaeser, Dennis A) 38. 01:14 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Paul Folbrecht) 39. 01:14 PM - Re: Joy Riding in the Pattern (Bob) 40. 01:17 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Paul Folbrecht) 41. 01:19 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Wayne Glasser) 42. 01:27 PM - Re: Joy Riding in the Pattern (Rob Prior (rv7)) 43. 01:51 PM - Re: Joy Riding in the Pattern (Ron Lee) 44. 01:55 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (RGray67968@aol.com) 45. 02:13 PM - Re: Sources for electrical system design (Charles Rowbotham) 46. 02:17 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Dan Checkoway) 47. 02:18 PM - Re: Joy Riding in the Pattern (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 48. 02:20 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Dwight Frye) 49. 02:53 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Darrell Reiley) 50. 03:00 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Darrell Reiley) 51. 03:05 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Paul Folbrecht) 52. 03:15 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Paul Folbrecht) 53. 03:51 PM - Re: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) (Larry Pardue) 54. 04:33 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Dan Checkoway) 55. 04:59 PM - Re: Joy Riding in the Pattern (Ed Holyoke) 56. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Paul Folbrecht) 57. 06:50 PM - Vans "muff"lers (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 58. 07:35 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (Dan Checkoway) 59. 07:42 PM - Just trashing my first flap!! (Allen Fulmer) 60. 08:08 PM - Re: Just trashing my first flap!! (David Carter) 61. 08:55 PM - Re: Re: Sources for electrical system design (LARRY ADAMSON) 62. 09:09 PM - Re: Re: Rude RVers? (Finn Lassen) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:25 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > ... Community outreach is one solution, quieter airplanes is > another. There was an interesting question from a potential student > pilot in a British aviation magazine I read, "Why do I have to wear > the aircraft muffler on my head instead of it being on the airplane?" Good mufflers will go a long way towards making airplanes quieter, but there does not seem to be much research into this area. If anyone knows of some, I'm very interested in finding it. Here in Switzerland, many airports charge landing fees based on the MTOW and the "noise classification" of the airplane. They are doing this in a probably vain attempt at keeping the airports open. Having a quiet airplane can save you a lot of money per landing, and usually will pay for itself in a couple of days of doing touch and gos. The fees can get quite expensive. The normal way people here quiet down their airplane is with a big honkin' glasspack, a.k.a. the "Swiss muffler". They do work, but they are heavy, not too easy to install, and they sit out in the air stream. I was chatting with a couple of guys trying to find a way to put one on their Ercoupe just this Sunday. It can be difficult to mount these rascals. The other issue is, of course, prop noise. Everyone knows that long blades spinning fast can approach or exceed supersonic velocities, which makes a lot of racket. Recently at SNF some of the airshow guys thought that it would be great to make a lot of noise, and were constantly overspeeding their props. Everyone around was really annoyed by the excess noise, and you know this crowd is pretty partial to airplanes. The solution to prop noise is pretty well known, and that's simply reduce the tip speed of the prop. This can be done with some of those levers in the cockpit, and of course having a shorter prop (3-blade, for example) makes it easier. Many of the glider towing airplanes here have huge mufflers, and tiny 4-blade props to keep the noise down, and it really works. Yes, they are sacrificing some performance, but from the testing I've seen on the modern 3-blade props, you don't seem to lose much at all, if any. I have communicated with AOPA on this issue to see why they don't put any emphasis on the quieter airplane when they are discussing airport complaints and closures. All the answers I have received are basically saying that they don't want to open up that can of worms. If they start promoting mufflers and quieter props, then the people trying to get the airports closed will use that as a club to beat us. It makes sense, but does not really solve the problem. -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 Wiring ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:50:03 AM PST US From: "Charles Heathco" Subject: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" It never ceases to amase me how one can ask a question about a problem and get maybe one response at best, but something like the rude RV'rs bings dozens of replys, reposts, posturing, and turmoil. :-) As to noise, we are right up there with the older jets. First time I heard a 6a with 180 fire up, my first thought was, man that guy needs a new muffler!, suprise, suprise, NO muffler. ( I got arrested for not haveing one on my 42 ford when I was a kid). I guess it would cause loss of performance to have one, as would require bigger cowl, and reduce poweroutput some. I can and do fly without headphones comfortably, when not needed, in my cherokee, but try it in my 150hp 6a, Nyet! Nein! Uhuh! Charlie heathco ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:40 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" In one of the Tony Bingelis' books he describes a "European" muffler that is purported to allow experimental aircraft to meet some claimed some tough European country noise standards. As I recall it is a coaxial tube arrangement that runs almost the length of the fuselage and was shown being mounted along the centerline under the fuselage of some sort of homebuilt design. I think the reason you don't see any such muffler is the weight and performance penalty. You can't build one without robbing some performance and adding weight. The newer RVs (6,7,8,9,10) have more room under the cowling than the orignal designs (3,4) that are very tight with their cowlings and would make it vey hard to fabicate any sort of convential muffler under the cowling. In any event, any sort of muffler design is goning to add weight and cut power to some extent but, again with the newer designs such as the 7 and 10 the goal seems to be shifting from absolute performance and efficiency to a more complete corss-country and in many cases fully IFR capable platform so such creature comforts as muffled engine sound might make more sense, not to mention the airport friendly advantages. Maybe some inventive person will start making one and offering it for sale to this ever-growing community. I forget which Bingelis book it was - 'Firewall Forward' perhaps - but I was always intrigued by the nature of the muffler design. I remember seeing some sort of reconisaise aircarft taht was Lycoming ppowered and looked sorta like a mini U2 type thing in some museum tha thad a long muffler running external to the fuselage so the key to getting reallly quiet is probably something similar. In order to perserve the looks of the plane the fuselage would have to be modified to "hide the thing somewhat which, addes weight, complexity, and would likely not be considered worht the trouble unless some severe noise restrictions are enacted here. Perhaps some reader will know more about the so-called European muffler and the noise restrictions it is supposed to tame and can add some enlightenment. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > --> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com > > You know, that is a question I have asked myself numerous times. Why don't > we put an effective muffler on our planes? Is it a weight issue? Would the > muffler degrade the engine performance that much? Any aeronautical engineers > out there know the answer? > > Regards, > > Michael Wynn > RV-8, Empennage > San Ramon, California > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" You will find one reason that mufflers don't get much attention is that they have been bantered about on this list many times before. A quick search of the list would have yielded many results. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Heathco Subject: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" It never ceases to amase me how one can ask a question about a problem and get maybe one response at best, but something like the rude RV'rs bings dozens of replys, reposts, posturing, and turmoil. :-) As to noise, we are right up there with the older jets. First time I heard a 6a with 180 fire up, my first thought was, man that guy needs a new muffler!, suprise, suprise, NO muffler. ( I got arrested for not haveing one on my 42 ford when I was a kid). I guess it would cause loss of performance to have one, as would require bigger cowl, and reduce poweroutput some. I can and do fly without headphones comfortably, when not needed, in my cherokee, but try it in my 150hp 6a, Nyet! Nein! Uhuh! Charlie heathco ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:21 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dimple Dies - regular vs. springback --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" Also, check the archives and there is nothing wrong with dies from Avery Tools and you get discount when buying all your tools from them at the get go. Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up Just completed my plane using Avery Dies the slow build way. do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:47 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley http://www.customaircraft.com/systems.html Try this site for mufflers and exhaust systems fir experimentals... Darrell MLWynn@aol.com wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com You know, that is a question I have asked myself numerous times. Why don't we put an effective muffler on our planes? Is it a weight issue? Would the muffler degrade the engine performance that much? Any aeronautical engineers out there know the answer? Regards, Michael Wynn RV-8, Empennage San Ramon, California Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A #70125 N622DR (reserved) --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:47 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: OFF THE TOPIC: Young Eagle Credits From: "Nightingale Michael" "RV-9 LIST (RV-9 LIST)" FILETIME=[8811EFC0:01C55562] --> RV-List message posted by: "Nightingale Michael" Our EAA chapter is sending three young men (we sent two young ladies last year) to the Advanced Aviation Air Academy during Airventure. If anyone has any YOUNG EAGLE CREDITS that are not spoken for PLEASE contact me OFF the list. In the last six year EAA Chapter 75 and the QCAA (Quad City Airmen's Association) has sent 12 young to the Air Academy. PLEASE help us continue introducing young people to General Aviation. This is the only thing the YOUNG EAGLE CREDITS can be used for; to help pay up to half the tuition for each attendee. Thank You Michael V. Nightingale @ DEERE & Co. Computer Center 400 19th ST MOLINE, IL. 61265 309-314-6806 cell NightingaleMichaelV@JohnDeere.com I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things . . . Antoine de Saint-Exupry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:44 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski Here is a simple way to keep an engine quiet. EI causes all the combustion to take place in the combustion chamber where it belongs. An aircraft engine with one EI at idle is very quiet compared to mags. Although I have not heard a EI equipped plane take off that I know of, I can only imagine it is quieter. With the prop, a smaller dia helps. I went with a 3 blade WW151 prop, it is very quiet, and many people have commented about the sound of my plane on take off, much quieter than all others with no mufflers!! Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:01 AM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Rude RVers --> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan The following is a copy of an email that I was asked to forward to the RV-List. I have already shot my wad on this subject and have nothing further to add so please direct any responses about this post directly to Mr. Coggin, not me. Sam Buchanan ======================================= Sam, I am not a member of the Matronics RV list but monitor it. Would you please forward this email to the list? I have sent the same to one Finn Lassen. Thanks. Tom Coggin motniggo@localnet.com ---------- Dear Finn Lassen, I know all of the owners and pilots of the named aircraft in your post to the Matronics RV list as I flew with them to the Turks and Caicos a year or so ago. None of them were rude or inconsiderate on that trip. On that trip I saw all of them experience delays and excessive paperwork with patience and courtesy. One of the group was once very plainspoken but when he expressed his forthright opinion about the price of a taxi ride in the Bahamas, I was in complete agreement with him. Even then he was not rude to the taxi driver. All of them are careful and safe pilots. I would fly in formation or with anyone of them. None of them are "HOTDOGS". If this trip was handled as the one I was on, it was extremely well planned and researched. They would certainly have known of and complied with the proper traffic patterns at planned refueling stops. I am sure it will come as a shock to them when they return from their trip to learn that they had insulted or inconviencied anyone. I am a little disturbed by your post on the RV list which is widely read in the RV community. Your posting of tail numbers after hearing only one side of the controversy is (in my opinion) at least inconsiderate of the owners of those airplanes. RV's having become more numerous and often flown in groups seem to invite the ire of others more so than regular certified aircraft which do not as often travel in groups. Flying as a group is perfectly legal and proper and honored by the FAA but is unusual in the eyes of the non flying public but is widely practiced in my part of the country by RVers. Tom Coggin, RV6 N112WA (256) 775-0383 motniggo@localnet.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:39 AM PST US From: "Kevin Williams" Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question --> RV-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" Has anyone looked at or installed a ram air induction system from Jon Johanason? http://www.flymore.com.au/ He has some great products and I'm tempted to believe that his ram air induction might work a touch better then the standard open inlet. here is a quote from his product site. "Extensive flight-testing has shown increases in excess of 2 of Manifold Pressure Recovery at 1,500 and 1" of Manifold Pressure Recovery at 10,000. These increases are improvements compared to Vans snorkel type induction (not the rhino horn induction)." There is actually a full page write up on it on his web site. kev From: "Marcus Cooper" Subject: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question Blacklist bl.spamcop [Blocked - see ] --> RV-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" Dan, Great effort and research, pretty slick how your filtered setup worked so well. One other thought is based on an experience with my first airplane, a Q-2/200. A friend of mine experimented with the ram air aspects as all the engines were set up that way with some very creative filters (a t-shirt for example). One thing guys tried was varying lengths of the inlet with the focus being on how close to the prop you should get. The closer you got, the better the performance and the impression was you got a bit of a turbo-type boost as the prop went buy. The next step was to align the prop so you would get the most benefit of the pressure and that was based on trying to get a blade past the inlet about the time an intake valve was about to open. Far from an exact science, but some guys seemed to have pretty good success with it. Marcus RV-10, tailcone well on it's way, QB on the ocean ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:01 AM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Now that I've decided on priming, manual vs. electrical trim (agonizing), engine/prop (Mattituck or Aerosports O-320 with 3-blade Catto), and a working version of my panel (subject to change), I want to tackle designing the electrical system for my aircraft in the remaining 6 weeks or so I have before I can start construction. I'm not asking any specific questions, just looking for good references to study. I'm nearly certain I want a single-alt dual-batt system but I need to decide on things like alternator output, battery brand/size, and come up with an actual wiring diagram. Am also looking for general tips on electrical work.. I'm no electrician. I can solder and crimp, but that's about it. (When I was a kid I once connected the ends of a bare cord to a nail and then plugged it in a wall socket. I would recommend against this.) So, if there are some great references out there (websites, books) talking 'bout electrical systems for experimentals in general, and especially RVs, with emphasis on dual-bus systems for all-electric IFR setups, please shoot them my way. TIA. ~Paul ~RV-9A QB ordered ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:38 AM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Is it really true that many RVs have NO muffler?? Surely a muffler is part of Van's FWF kits. I realize they are not very effective mufflers, but they're mufflers.. just like the stacks on most certified AC. The RVs I have heard are no louder than the average 172. Am I missing something?? --- Darrell Reiley wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > > http://www.customaircraft.com/systems.html > > > Try this site for mufflers and exhaust systems fir experimentals... > > Darrell ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:55 AM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) They are more like exhaust collectors than noise mufflers. :-) do not archive i love collected airplane noise....ESPECIALLY the airshow kind -------------- Original message -------------- > --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht > > Is it really true that many RVs have NO muffler?? Surely a muffler is part of > Van's FWF kits. I realize they are not very effective mufflers, but they're > mufflers.. just like the stacks on most certified AC. The RVs I have heard are > no louder than the average 172. Am I missing something?? > > --- Darrell Reiley wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > > > > http://www.customaircraft.com/systems.html > > > > > > Try this site for mufflers and exhaust systems fir experimentals... > > > > Darrell > > > > > > They are more like exhaust collectors than noisemufflers. :-) do not archive i love collected airplane noise....ESPECIALLY the airshow kind -------------- Original message -------------- -- RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Is it really true that many RVs have NO muffler?? Surely a muffler is part of Van's FWF kits. I realize they are not very effective mufflers, but they're mufflers.. just like the stacks on most certified AC. The RVs I have heard are no louder than the average 172. Am I missing something?? --- Darrell Reiley wrote: -- RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley http://www.customaircraft.com/systems.html Try this site for mufflers and exhaust systems fir experimentals... Darrell ==================================== ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:17 AM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Scott ... what is a WW151 prop and do you have a link to their site? Regards ... Jerry Grimmonpre 7a shop building Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > I went with a 3 blade > WW151 prop, it is very quiet, and many people have commented about the > sound of my plane on take off, much quieter than all others with no > mufflers!! > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:25 AM PST US From: Dan Brown Subject: Re: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Brown Quoting Paul Folbrecht : > So, if there are some great references out there (websites, books) talking > 'bout electrical systems for experimentals in general, and especially http://www.aeroelectric.com/ -- Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org "Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring." -- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:15 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski question Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski question Be careful with those numbers, I belive Jon's new plane is turbo normalized and am not sure it that is taken into account. At 08:11 AM 5/10/2005 -0600, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" > >Has anyone looked at or installed a ram air induction system from Jon >Johanason? http://www.flymore.com.au/ > >He has some great products and I'm tempted to believe that his ram air >induction might work a touch better then the standard open inlet. > >here is a quote from his product site. > >"Extensive flight-testing has shown increases in excess of 2 of Manifold >Pressure Recovery at 1,500 and 1" of Manifold Pressure Recovery at 10,000. >These increases are improvements compared to Vans snorkel type induction >(not the rhino horn induction)." > >There is actually a full page write up on it on his web site. > >kev > > >From: "Marcus Cooper" >To: >Subject: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question >Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:21:14 -0400 7.50 BARRACUDA_HEADER_FP56 RBL: >Blacklist bl.spamcop [Blocked - see >] > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" > >Dan, > > Great effort and research, pretty slick how your filtered setup worked >so well. One other thought is based on an experience with my first >airplane, a Q-2/200. A friend of mine experimented with the ram air aspects >as all the engines were set up that way with some very creative filters (a >t-shirt for example). One thing guys tried was varying lengths of the inlet >with the focus being on how close to the prop you should get. The closer >you got, the better the performance and the impression was you got a bit of >a turbo-type boost as the prop went buy. The next step was to align the >prop so you would get the most benefit of the pressure and that was based on >trying to get a blade past the inlet about the time an intake valve was >about to open. Far from an exact science, but some guys seemed to have >pretty good success with it. > > >Marcus > >RV-10, tailcone well on it's way, QB on the ocean > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:05 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" I did look into that when I was constructing my ram air setup. The price was ridiculously expensive for my budget. do not archive )_( Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Williams" Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question > --> RV-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" > > Has anyone looked at or installed a ram air induction system from Jon > Johanason? http://www.flymore.com.au/ > > He has some great products and I'm tempted to believe that his ram air > induction might work a touch better then the standard open inlet. > > here is a quote from his product site. > > "Extensive flight-testing has shown increases in excess of 2 of Manifold > Pressure Recovery at 1,500 and 1" of Manifold Pressure Recovery at 10,000. > These increases are improvements compared to Vans snorkel type induction > (not the rhino horn induction)." > > There is actually a full page write up on it on his web site. > > kev > > > From: "Marcus Cooper" > To: > Subject: RV-List: RE: To ram air or NOT to ram air -- that is the question > Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 18:21:14 -0400 7.50 BARRACUDA_HEADER_FP56 RBL: > Blacklist bl.spamcop [Blocked - see > ] > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Marcus Cooper" > > Dan, > > Great effort and research, pretty slick how your filtered setup worked > so well. One other thought is based on an experience with my first > airplane, a Q-2/200. A friend of mine experimented with the ram air aspects > as all the engines were set up that way with some very creative filters (a > t-shirt for example). One thing guys tried was varying lengths of the inlet > with the focus being on how close to the prop you should get. The closer > you got, the better the performance and the impression was you got a bit of > a turbo-type boost as the prop went buy. The next step was to align the > prop so you would get the most benefit of the pressure and that was based on > trying to get a blade past the inlet about the time an intake valve was > about to open. Far from an exact science, but some guys seemed to have > pretty good success with it. > > > Marcus > > RV-10, tailcone well on it's way, QB on the ocean > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape From: "Stephanie Marshall" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I am not an Oklahoma gal, I am an Oregonian born and bred :-) BTW where is Brown't Tools, do they have a web site? Cheers, Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley I think I'd like to know if you've got a sister. I tried marrying an Oklahoma gal, but there wasn't any way she'd buy me any airplane parts. First thing I did after the divorce (well, okay... maybe it wasn't the FIRST thing) was run down to the airport with a pile of money (which it took a while to accumulate after the divorce) to get my pilot's license. Then, I started buying my own parts. You do know that there's no reason to not be building with Brown's Tools right over in Bethany. You could have everything you need tonight if you run over there right now! ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I have started a web site so our folks (and anyone else who's curious) back in Oregon (we are in Oklahoma) to track our progress. I called it the RV-8a Widow's Diary, no one's dead but I am sure that the plane's going to be another "woman" in our marriage :~) www.rv-8a.4t.com. Please tell me what y'all think Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marty Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" Now all we need is a copy of "What To Expect When You're Emping" and it'll be complete... Do not archive Marty RV-8A dreaming -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" how did you know? Everynight we try to spend some "quality" time with it ;~) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley Do you check on your kit in the middle of the night to make sure it's still there? ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" Thanks, I think that getting your first emp. is like getting a new baby...you don't know yet what's normal and what isn't. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and Megan Johnson Subject: Re: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Yeah...all the boxes come that way. No big deal..you really should not leave the plastic coating on too long anyway. I have seen quite a lot of tank skins that have started to oxidize badly where the aluminum supplier prints their name. The ink seems to have some caustic properties when it is all covered up with plastic. You will have to weigh this risk with the potential of hanger rash after the plastic is pulled. I believe Vans also recommends you pull the plastic off. Cheers...Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Duct Tape > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" > > Hi, > We got our RV-8 Emp kit last night and I was wondering if anyone else's kit arrived with Duct Tape holding the metal pieces down in the box. > > We lost a bit of the plastic coating as we tried to get it all apart for inventory. > > Thanks, > Steph > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:36:33 AM PST US From: "Marty" Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" www.browntool.com Marty Ps. I like your site, always nice to see more RV-8 sites. |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- |server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall |Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:17 AM |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" | | |I am not an Oklahoma gal, I am an Oregonian born and bred :-) BTW |where is Brown't Tools, do they have a web site? | |Cheers, |Stephanie |www.rv-8a.4t.com | |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com |[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel |McCarley |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | | |--> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley | | |I think I'd like to know if you've got a sister. I tried marrying an |Oklahoma gal, but there wasn't any way she'd buy me any airplane |parts. First thing I did after the divorce (well, okay... maybe it |wasn't the FIRST thing) was run down to the airport with a pile of |money (which it took a while to accumulate after the divorce) to get |my pilot's license. Then, I started buying my own parts. | |You do know that there's no reason to not be building with Brown's |Tools right over in Bethany. You could have everything you need |tonight if you run over there right now! ;-) | | |do not archive | |-----Original Message----- |From: Stephanie Marshall |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" | | |I have started a web site so our folks (and anyone else who's |curious) back in Oregon (we are in Oklahoma) to track our progress. I |called it the RV-8a Widow's Diary, no one's dead but I am sure that |the plane's going to be another "woman" in our marriage :~) |www.rv-8a.4t.com. | |Please tell me what y'all think | |Stephanie | |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com |[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marty |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" | |Now all we need is a copy of "What To Expect When You're Emping" and |it'll be complete... | |Do not archive |Marty |RV-8A dreaming | |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com |[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie |Marshall |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" | | |how did you know? Everynight we try to spend some "quality" time |with |it ;~) | |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com |[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel |McCarley |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | | |--> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley | | | |Do you check on your kit in the middle of the night to make sure it's |still there? ;-) | | |do not archive | |-----Original Message----- |From: Stephanie Marshall |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" | | |Thanks, |I think that getting your first emp. is like getting a new baby...you |don't know yet what's normal and what isn't. :) | |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com |[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and |Megan |Johnson |To: rv-list@matronics.com |Subject: Re: RV-List: Duct Tape | | |--> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" | | |Yeah...all the boxes come that way. No big deal..you really should |not |leave |the plastic coating on too long anyway. I have seen quite a lot of |tank |skins that have started to oxidize badly where the aluminum supplier |prints |their name. The ink seems to have some caustic properties when it is |all |covered up with plastic. You will have to weigh this risk with the |potential |of hanger rash after the plastic is pulled. I believe Vans also |recommends |you pull the plastic off. |Cheers...Evan Johnson |www.evansaviationproducts.com |(530)247-0375 |(530)351-1776 cell | | |----- Original Message ----- |From: "Stephanie Marshall" |To: |Subject: RV-List: Duct Tape | | |> --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" | |> |> Hi, |> We got our RV-8 Emp kit last night and I was wondering if anyone |else's |kit arrived with Duct Tape holding the metal pieces down in the box. |> |> We lost a bit of the plastic coating as we tried to get it all |apart |for |inventory. |> |> Thanks, |> Steph |> |> | | | | | ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:41 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: RE: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley that is correct but here is another great site... for certified aircraft can be VERY Expensive too... for experimental ????? www.powerflowsystems.com Darrell "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" You will find one reason that mufflers don't get much attention is that they have been bantered about on this list many times before. A quick search of the list would have yielded many results. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Heathco Subject: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" It never ceases to amase me how one can ask a question about a problem and get maybe one response at best, but something like the rude RV'rs bings dozens of replys, reposts, posturing, and turmoil. :-) As to noise, we are right up there with the older jets. First time I heard a 6a with 180 fire up, my first thought was, man that guy needs a new muffler!, suprise, suprise, NO muffler. ( I got arrested for not haveing one on my 42 ford when I was a kid). I guess it would cause loss of performance to have one, as would require bigger cowl, and reduce poweroutput some. I can and do fly without headphones comfortably, when not needed, in my cherokee, but try it in my 150hp 6a, Nyet! Nein! Uhuh! Charlie heathco ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:00:20 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" http://www.aeroelectric.com Buy the book, read it cover to cover, and make up your own mind about architecture. FWIW, I used Z-11 and Bob's techniques on my RV-7, and it has been rock solid in the electrons dept. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Folbrecht" Subject: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design > --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht > > Now that I've decided on priming, manual vs. electrical trim (agonizing), > engine/prop (Mattituck or Aerosports O-320 with 3-blade Catto), and a working > version of my panel (subject to change), I want to tackle designing the > electrical system for my aircraft in the remaining 6 weeks or so I have before > I can start construction. > > I'm not asking any specific questions, just looking for good references to > study. I'm nearly certain I want a single-alt dual-batt system but I need to > decide on things like alternator output, battery brand/size, and come up with > an actual wiring diagram. Am also looking for general tips on electrical > work.. I'm no electrician. I can solder and crimp, but that's about it. (When > I was a kid I once connected the ends of a bare cord to a nail and then plugged > it in a wall socket. I would recommend against this.) > > So, if there are some great references out there (websites, books) talking > 'bout electrical systems for experimentals in general, and especially RVs, with > emphasis on dual-bus systems for all-electric IFR setups, please shoot them my > way. TIA. > > ~Paul > ~RV-9A QB ordered > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:32 AM PST US From: Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley Well, maybe that's my problem. I need to get out to the left coast more. Brown Tool is on the web at www.browntool.com They're located on South Meridian in OKC. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I am not an Oklahoma gal, I am an Oregonian born and bred :-) BTW where is Brown't Tools, do they have a web site? Cheers, Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley I think I'd like to know if you've got a sister. I tried marrying an Oklahoma gal, but there wasn't any way she'd buy me any airplane parts. First thing I did after the divorce (well, okay... maybe it wasn't the FIRST thing) was run down to the airport with a pile of money (which it took a while to accumulate after the divorce) to get my pilot's license. Then, I started buying my own parts. You do know that there's no reason to not be building with Brown's Tools right over in Bethany. You could have everything you need tonight if you run over there right now! ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I have started a web site so our folks (and anyone else who's curious) back in Oregon (we are in Oklahoma) to track our progress. I called it the RV-8a Widow's Diary, no one's dead but I am sure that the plane's going to be another "woman" in our marriage :~) www.rv-8a.4t.com. Please tell me what y'all think Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marty Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" Now all we need is a copy of "What To Expect When You're Emping" and it'll be complete... Do not archive Marty RV-8A dreaming -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" how did you know? Everynight we try to spend some "quality" time with it ;~) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley Do you check on your kit in the middle of the night to make sure it's still there? ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" Thanks, I think that getting your first emp. is like getting a new baby...you don't know yet what's normal and what isn't. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and Megan Johnson Subject: Re: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Yeah...all the boxes come that way. No big deal..you really should not leave the plastic coating on too long anyway. I have seen quite a lot of tank skins that have started to oxidize badly where the aluminum supplier prints their name. The ink seems to have some caustic properties when it is all covered up with plastic. You will have to weigh this risk with the potential of hanger rash after the plastic is pulled. I believe Vans also recommends you pull the plastic off. Cheers...Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Duct Tape > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" > > Hi, > We got our RV-8 Emp kit last night and I was wondering if anyone else's kit arrived with Duct Tape holding the metal pieces down in the box. > > We lost a bit of the plastic coating as we tried to get it all apart for inventory. > > Thanks, > Steph > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:48 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" --> RV-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" The AeroElectric thread on this list server - along with AeroElectric.com. Here's a link to a date sorted view: http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list/date.html Get Bob Nuckolls book - he's just updated it (Version 11). Some tips: (worth what you paid for it :-) A 40A alternator will handle an all electric IFR airplane - even with electronic ignition (is that why you want 2 batteries?). I'm planning on a couple of Odyssey PC625 batteries (I'm using an electrically dependent Subaru engine). I'm also going with electric trim (not too much agonizing). Your panel will constantly change because new stuff is always coming out!! Dennis Glaeser Starting an RV-7A in July ----------------------------------------- Subject: Sources for electrical system design From: Paul Folbrecht Now that I've decided on priming, manual vs. electrical trim (agonizing), engine/prop (Mattituck or Aerosports O-320 with 3-blade Catto), and a working version of my panel (subject to change), I want to tackle designing the electrical system for my aircraft in the remaining 6 weeks or so I have before I can start construction. I'm not asking any specific questions, just looking for good references to study. I'm nearly certain I want a single-alt dual-batt system but I need to decide on things like alternator output, battery brand/size, and come up with an actual wiring diagram. Am also looking for general tips on electrical work.. I'm no electrician. I can solder and crimp, but that's about it. (When I was a kid I once connected the ends of a bare cord to a nail and then plugged it in a wall socket. I would recommend against this.) So, if there are some great references out there (websites, books) talking 'bout electrical systems for experimentals in general, and especially RVs, with emphasis on dual-bus systems for all-electric IFR setups, please shoot them my way. TIA. ~Paul ~RV-9A QB ordered ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:06:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's From: "Larry Bowen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" I've been running these on my RV-8 since early on: http://tinyurl.com/cvmkj Others have said my plane sounds "good", "strong", and "different". One of these days I'll get a noise meter and measure with them on and off. - Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Darrell Reiley said: > --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > > that is correct but here is another great site... for certified aircraft > can be VERY Expensive > too... for experimental ????? > > www.powerflowsystems.com > > Darrell > > > "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > You will find one reason that mufflers don't get much attention is that > they have been bantered about on this list many times before. A quick > search of the list would have yielded many results. > > > Mike > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles Heathco > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Mufflers on Rv's > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Heathco" > > It never ceases to amase me how one can ask a question about a problem > and get maybe one response at best, but something like the rude RV'rs > bings dozens of replys, reposts, posturing, and turmoil. :-) As to > noise, we are right up there with the older jets. First time I heard a > 6a with 180 fire up, my first thought was, man that guy needs a new > muffler!, suprise, suprise, NO muffler. ( I got arrested for not haveing > one on my 42 ford when I was a kid). I guess it would cause loss of > performance to have one, as would require bigger cowl, and reduce > poweroutput some. I can and do fly without headphones comfortably, when > not needed, in my cherokee, but try it in my 150hp 6a, Nyet! Nein! Uhuh! > Charlie heathco ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:44 AM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski http://www.whirlwindaviation.com/ The WW 151 is a very smooth and quiet prop. At 10:38 AM 5/10/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" > >Scott ... >what is a WW151 prop and do you have a link to their site? >Regards ... >Jerry Grimmonpre >7a shop building > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > > > I went with a 3 blade > > WW151 prop, it is very quiet, and many people have commented about the > > sound of my plane on take off, much quieter than all others with no > > mufflers!! > > > > > > Scott Bilinski > > Eng dept 305 > > Phone (858) 657-2536 > > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > > > > > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:26 AM PST US From: MLWynn@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Dimple Dies-regular vs. springback --> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com At the risk of asking a really stupid question, what is the difference? Michael Wynn RV 8 Empennage ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:47 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley Most RV's have no mufflers at all... not a Van's norm... Paul Folbrecht wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Is it really true that many RVs have NO muffler?? Surely a muffler is part of Van's FWF kits. I realize they are not very effective mufflers, but they're mufflers.. just like the stacks on most certified AC. The RVs I have heard are no louder than the average 172. Am I missing something?? --- Darrell Reiley wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > > http://www.customaircraft.com/systems.html > > > Try this site for mufflers and exhaust systems fir experimentals... > > Darrell Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A #70125 N622DR (reserved) --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:36 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 05/10 11:17, Stephanie Marshall wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" > > I am not an Oklahoma gal, I am an Oregonian born and bred :-) BTW where is Brown't Tools, do they have a web site? http://www.browntool.com -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:17:30 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Brown Tools From: "Stephanie Marshall" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" That's right, we called them last Saturday to get directions and THEY WEREN'T OPEN!! I know we can still order from them, but it would be nice to be able to go in once in a while also. :-) Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley Well, maybe that's my problem. I need to get out to the left coast more. Brown Tool is on the web at www.browntool.com They're located on South Meridian in OKC. do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I am not an Oklahoma gal, I am an Oregonian born and bred :-) BTW where is Brown't Tools, do they have a web site? Cheers, Stephanie www.rv-8a.4t.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley I think I'd like to know if you've got a sister. I tried marrying an Oklahoma gal, but there wasn't any way she'd buy me any airplane parts. First thing I did after the divorce (well, okay... maybe it wasn't the FIRST thing) was run down to the airport with a pile of money (which it took a while to accumulate after the divorce) to get my pilot's license. Then, I started buying my own parts. You do know that there's no reason to not be building with Brown's Tools right over in Bethany. You could have everything you need tonight if you run over there right now! ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" I have started a web site so our folks (and anyone else who's curious) back in Oregon (we are in Oklahoma) to track our progress. I called it the RV-8a Widow's Diary, no one's dead but I am sure that the plane's going to be another "woman" in our marriage :~) www.rv-8a.4t.com. Please tell me what y'all think Stephanie -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Marty Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" Now all we need is a copy of "What To Expect When You're Emping" and it'll be complete... Do not archive Marty RV-8A dreaming -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" how did you know? Everynight we try to spend some "quality" time with it ;~) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Kendel McCarley Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: Kendel McCarley Do you check on your kit in the middle of the night to make sure it's still there? ;-) do not archive -----Original Message----- From: Stephanie Marshall Subject: RE: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" Thanks, I think that getting your first emp. is like getting a new baby...you don't know yet what's normal and what isn't. :) -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Evan and Megan Johnson Subject: Re: RV-List: Duct Tape --> RV-List message posted by: "Evan and Megan Johnson" Yeah...all the boxes come that way. No big deal..you really should not leave the plastic coating on too long anyway. I have seen quite a lot of tank skins that have started to oxidize badly where the aluminum supplier prints their name. The ink seems to have some caustic properties when it is all covered up with plastic. You will have to weigh this risk with the potential of hanger rash after the plastic is pulled. I believe Vans also recommends you pull the plastic off. Cheers...Evan Johnson www.evansaviationproducts.com (530)247-0375 (530)351-1776 cell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stephanie Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Duct Tape > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" > > Hi, > We got our RV-8 Emp kit last night and I was wondering if anyone else's kit arrived with Duct Tape holding the metal pieces down in the box. > > We lost a bit of the plastic coating as we tried to get it all apart for inventory. > > Thanks, > Steph > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:45 AM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: A couple of quick points: Noise: RVs (and other straight no muffler airplanes) are louder. That is OK since we climb so fast and move so fast the effect to Mr & Mrs. Joe Public is not real bad. Just be aware we are louder than you think. Our European brothers and sisters have to add 4-5 feet long "swiss mufflers". to reduce noise. Any builder can reduce noise but it will cost you a little added weight, a loss of a few MPH, a few less HP and a less than attractive tube extending under the belly. I have a 4 into 1 exhaust with a 2.25" collector. I am thinking of a removable 21" stainless 4" diameter stainless steel racing muffler extending back past the firewall on the centerline of the belly. I could extend the cowl exit aft to cover it and maybe get a little "augment-or" action, which improves cooling and will hide the muffler. Since the "tuned" length of a Lycoming is in 18.5"-21" interval lengths, the racing muffler should produce min back-pressure and could actually improve exhaust scavenging. Mistakes Happen If you say you never have flown into airspace that you should not have, you have not been flying very long or you have never figured out you already have, probably many times. (Thank you GPS with airspace warning.) "Formation Flight" and "180 Overhead Break approach": A group of RV's fly formation and like to land in formation. They are friends of mine and I flew with them on occasion. They were all retired and flew often. When their activities came under attack from the general pilot community at the airport, they were dumbfounded that anyone should complain. Their usual activity, formation landings are: in trail formation, idle power (with back-fires), "180 Break" approach abeam the numbers, steep continuous bank descending 180 turn to landing. Each RV lands within say 10-15 seconds. The "short approach", back-fire, from abruptly going to Idle power and 4 plus planes at once was not popular with all. They were pissing off the airport general population, but were oblivious, and because of their previous airline or military experience they justified it is the safest way to land a group of airplanes in minimum time. That is true, but I tried to explain they (we) needed to fit into the pattern. The Airman's Info Manual (AIM) shows 45, downwi nd, base, final to landing patterns. The 180 overhead landing is not standard. I do formation flying, takeoff, approach and landing, including 180 overheads, however you have to be aware that you will startle other pilots and folks on the ground with mass arrivals and military patterns. Some bystanders love it, and my RV buddies think everyone should love the show. They don't all love it. May be it is jealousy, but just be sensitive to that. Also this could be actionable by the FAA. Patterns are not specified by the FARs except "all turns must be made to the left unless noted otherwise." However US Government Vs. Joe Pilot, in appeals court, has shown the AIM, which is not regulations, does show a standard pattern and has been upheld as de-facto law. Meaning pilots not flying the pattern per the AIM can get the FAA shaft. If the pattern is clear, no one around and you are over flying rural unpopulated areas, make formation 180 break overhead landings all day, but if the pattern is full, I would kindly suggest you knock it off. Cheers George --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:59 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Uneven RV6 bottom cowl From: --> RV-List message posted by: Hi Listers.... A friend who mounted the cowling on his almost completed RV6... noticed the bottom cowl contour curves not matching exactly. The bottom right (passenger side) contour seems to bow down a bit further towards the ground than on the left side. However it does match up even at the firewall area and close to the spinner. Darn thing just looks ' swollen' in between those two area's. I'm building an RV6 too ... I checked and my lower cowl does the same thing.... same side. It's a notice-able when looking head on and I'll probably be cutting into it to even things up best I can. These cowlings are known for needing reshaping but I hadn't heard of this one nor found anything in the archives about it. Any RV6,7 or 9 builders with the same problem on the O360 RV bottom cowl? Wondering if someone had addressed this problem already with a workable solution? Thanks everybody, Clay - RV6 finish kit (almost) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:06:48 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" I draw 48 amps, IFR all electric rv. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glaeser, Dennis A Subject: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" The AeroElectric thread on this list server - along with AeroElectric.com. Here's a link to a date sorted view: http://www.matronics.com/browse/aeroelectric-list/date.html Get Bob Nuckolls book - he's just updated it (Version 11). Some tips: (worth what you paid for it :-) A 40A alternator will handle an all electric IFR airplane - even with electronic ignition (is that why you want 2 batteries?). I'm planning on a couple of Odyssey PC625 batteries (I'm using an electrically dependent Subaru engine). I'm also going with electric trim (not too much agonizing). Your panel will constantly change because new stuff is always coming out!! Dennis Glaeser Starting an RV-7A in July ----------------------------------------- Subject: Sources for electrical system design From: Paul Folbrecht Now that I've decided on priming, manual vs. electrical trim (agonizing), engine/prop (Mattituck or Aerosports O-320 with 3-blade Catto), and a working version of my panel (subject to change), I want to tackle designing the electrical system for my aircraft in the remaining 6 weeks or so I have before I can start construction. I'm not asking any specific questions, just looking for good references to study. I'm nearly certain I want a single-alt dual-batt system but I need to decide on things like alternator output, battery brand/size, and come up with an actual wiring diagram. Am also looking for general tips on electrical work.. I'm no electrician. I can solder and crimp, but that's about it. (When I was a kid I once connected the ends of a bare cord to a nail and then plugged it in a wall socket. I would recommend against this.) So, if there are some great references out there (websites, books) talking 'bout electrical systems for experimentals in general, and especially RVs, with emphasis on dual-bus systems for all-electric IFR setups, please shoot them my way. TIA. ~Paul ~RV-9A QB ordered ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:04 PM PST US From: James Ochs Subject: RV-List: Mogas warning --> RV-List message posted by: James Ochs Just came across this a few minutes ago, Just an FYI: http://planenews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=528 *Marathon Oil Warns Pilots Using Auto Gas in West Virginia.* Safety and Warnings Marathon Ashland Petroleum officials are warning pilots in West Virginia, and parts of Ohio and Kentucky, who use 87 or 89 octane auto fuel in their aircraft that the company has detected the presence of foreign materials in some of that fuel. Pilots using auto fuel in airplanes in those areas are asked to call 800-892-3418. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 12:23:07 PM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley www.whirlwindpropellers You will find information here... Darrell Reiley Jerry Grimmonpre wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Scott ... what is a WW151 prop and do you have a link to their site? Regards ... Jerry Grimmonpre 7a shop building Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski > > I went with a 3 blade > WW151 prop, it is very quiet, and many people have commented about the > sound of my plane on take off, much quieter than all others with no > mufflers!! > > > Scott Bilinski > Eng dept 305 > Phone (858) 657-2536 > Pager (858) 502-5190 > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Jim, Vetterman has a muffler system for the RV. I think I will order one for my RV9. He states it will make very little difference inside but much better on the outside. Jim Nelson ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:14 PM PST US From: Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point Wow, that's quite a bit. Is this the max draw configuration, ie. pitot heat, landing lights, microwave oven all on at once? If so how much do you draw under normal flying conditions? Jeff Point Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >I draw 48 amps, IFR all electric rv. > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:24 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Re:Dimple Dies-regular vs. springback From: "Glaeser, Dennis A" --> RV-List message posted by: "Glaeser, Dennis A" Whenever you form sheet metal, you can't just bend it exactly to the desired angle because it 'springs back' a bit. The amount depends on material, thickness, bend radius, bend angle, (there are tables for this) ... Tooling designers take this into account and add a springback angle to the tooling surfaces where flanges are formed - you overbend the flange by the springback angle and the result is a flange bent to the angle you intended to get. I figured that all dimple dies already had this built-in, but then I saw that suppliers had 'spring-back' dimple dies, in addition to the 'regular' ones. I guess in general, dimples are small enough, and typically done with enough force (hammer, squeezer) that the metal doesn't spring back enough to matter. But apparently someone decided to make a better mousetrap. I was wondering if the difference is noticeable, and a couple of people have said yes. (BTW - the only dumb questions are the ones you DON'T ask :-) Dennis Glaeser ---- Subject: Re: Re:Dimple Dies-regular vs. springback From: MLWynn@aol.com At the risk of asking a really stupid question, what is the difference? Michael Wynn RV 8 Empennage ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:25 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht > Some tips: (worth what you paid for it :-) > A 40A alternator will handle an all electric IFR airplane - even with > electronic ignition (is that why you want 2 batteries?). I'm planning I'm planning LASAR ignition. Maybe it's silly, but a battery-dependent engine just makes me a tad nervous. I like the LASAR solution of having old-fashioned mags underneath. Two batts is because I will have an all-electric IFR aircraft. I want two separate busses with my IFR backup instruments and avionics on the 2nd bus with its own battery. > on a couple of Odyssey PC625 batteries (I'm using an electrically > dependent Subaru engine). > I'm also going with electric trim (not too much agonizing). Your panel > will constantly change because new stuff is always coming out!! I don't know about that. I'm going with the GRT EFIS in part because it's *not* brand-new and it's proven. Same goes for the TT AP. If a new company comes along, I'm not going with their product, no matter how good it sounds/looks, until plenty of others have been flying with it for a year+. That's not going to unfold in the next 1-2 years. As for avionics, really doesn't change that fast. I may well go with a GNS 430 instead of the 300XL if prices drop or refurbished units become available, but that's about it. Don't see my SL-30 nav/com, Garmin 327 xponder, or PSE audio panel being superseded in the next year either. If they are, though, with a better unit at the same price range, that doesn't really change the panel much. I don't see many major innovations coming in the way of my backup analog ASI, alt, or electric TC, either. ;-> ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 01:14:37 PM PST US From: Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > The 180 overhead landing is not standard. I do formation flying, > takeoff, approach and landing, including 180 overheads, however you have > to be aware that you will startle other pilots and folks on the ground > with mass arrivals and military patterns. Some bystanders love it, and my > RV buddies think everyone should love the show. They don't all love it. > May be it is jealousy, but just be sensitive to that. Also this could be > actionable by the FAA. Patterns are not specified by the FARs except "all > turns must be made to the left unless noted otherwise." However US > Government Vs. Joe Pilot, in appeals court, has shown the AIM, which is > not regulations, does show a standard pattern and has been upheld as > de-facto law. Meaning pilots not flying the pattern per the AIM can get > the FAA shaft. Now for the other side of the story. Flying a standard pattern behind a Piper Cub flying at 35 knots and doing a Bomber Pattern, (that is 5 miles downwind, 2 miles crosswind and another 5 miles on final with a 5 minute taxi on the runway before turn off on a taxiway) is sheer frustration for even a Citabria Pilot. My philosophy is if you are going to land, then land. Do not joy ride in the pattern. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:44 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a "muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so ineffective that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's exhaust stack. > Most RV's have no mufflers at all... not a Van's norm... > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:56 PM PST US From: "Wayne Glasser" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Glasser" Does anyone know if Larry Vetterman has a web site? Thanks Wayne ----- Original Message ----- From: "James H Nelson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > Jim, > Vetterman has a muffler system for the RV. I think I will order > one for my RV9. He states it will make very little difference inside but > much better on the outside. > > Jim Nelson > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 01:27:36 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: Re: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 14:12:39 2005-05-10 Bob wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > My philosophy is if you are going to land, then land. Do not joy > ride in the pattern. Another option is, if you're going to fly formation, learn to take off and land *in formation*. That way you get your entire wing in or out in one shot, without confusing the itinerant traffic with interval takeoffs or breaks to downwind on landing. -Rob ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:57 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >Now for the other side of the story. Flying a standard pattern behind a >Piper Cub flying at 35 knots and doing a Bomber Pattern, (that is 5 miles >downwind, 2 miles crosswind and another 5 miles on final with a 5 minute >taxi on the runway before turn off on a taxiway) is sheer frustration for >even a Citabria Pilot. So turn base while they still have three miles to go on downwind. Just announce that you are turning base inside of the Cub doing a B-52 pattern and everything is fine. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:58 PM PST US From: RGray67968@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com Are you sure the FWF kit isn't referring to the HEAT MUFFLER.....as in 'heat muff'?? You know, the little thingy for warming your toezzies : ). Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 Flying & F1 Rocket on the way (boy does that sound good)!! do not archive I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a "muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so ineffective that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's exhaust stack. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 02:13:55 PM PST US From: "Charles Rowbotham" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles Rowbotham" Paul, Suggest you purchase Bob Nuckolls - AeroElectric book. We used his designs and our elecrtical systems have been rock solid and allows for future growth. In addition, Bob has answered our few questions. IMHO the small cost of his book was some of the best $$ spent on our 8A. Chuck Rowbotham RV-8A 300+ hours >From: Paul Folbrecht >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Sources for electrical system design >Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 07:57:57 -0700 (PDT) > >--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht > >Now that I've decided on priming, manual vs. electrical trim (agonizing), >engine/prop (Mattituck or Aerosports O-320 with 3-blade Catto), and a >working >version of my panel (subject to change), I want to tackle designing the >electrical system for my aircraft in the remaining 6 weeks or so I have >before >I can start construction. > >I'm not asking any specific questions, just looking for good references to >study. ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:45 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Wow, that's quite a bit. Is this the max draw configuration, ie. pitot > heat, landing lights, microwave oven all on at once? If so how much do > you draw under normal flying conditions? > > >I draw 48 amps, IFR all electric rv. FWIW, I'm in the same boat. With all toys running, including dual 100W landing lights, high pressure boost pump, strobes, position lights, and pitot heat, my system draws around 48A as well. Nevertheless, I use a single 40A B&C alternator on my RV-7, all-electric, IFR, single 17AH PC-680 battery. Typical current flowing from the alternator to battery with no "high power" toys running is just shy of 11A. This is with all of the avionics, engine monitor, and instruments running, without shedding any load. On my plane strobes add around 7A, position lights another 7A, each landing light (or wig-wag) another 7A, boost pump another 5A or so. Imho, every builder should do a current draw analysis on all of your toys to size your alternator needs. Or just be lazy and go with a 60A setup. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:14 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" OK here we go again on the overheads. They are very standard and are defined in the AIM chapter 5. Quote below. Searchable here: http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/aim0504.html 5-4-25. Overhead Approach Maneuver a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) may request ATC authorization for an overhead maneuver. An overhead maneuver is not an instrument approach procedure. Overhead maneuver patterns are developed at airports where aircraft have an operational need to conduct the maneuver. An aircraft conducting an overhead maneuver is considered to be VFR and the IFR flight plan is cancelled when the aircraft reaches the initial point on the initial approach portion of the maneuver. (See FIG 5-4-22.) The existence of a standard overhead maneuver pattern does not eliminate the possible requirement for an aircraft to conform to conventional rectangular patterns if an overhead maneuver cannot be approved. Aircraft operating to an airport without a functioning control tower must initiate cancellation of an IFR flight plan prior to executing the overhead maneuver. Cancellation of the IFR flight plan must be accomplished after crossing the landing threshold on the initial portion of the maneuver or after landing. Controllers may authorize an overhead maneuver and issue the following to arriving aircraft: Enjoy, Mike Do not archive this again -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > The 180 overhead landing is not standard. I do formation flying, > takeoff, approach and landing, including 180 overheads, however you have > to be aware that you will startle other pilots and folks on the ground > with mass arrivals and military patterns. Some bystanders love it, and my > RV buddies think everyone should love the show. They don't all love it. > May be it is jealousy, but just be sensitive to that. Also this could be > actionable by the FAA. Patterns are not specified by the FARs except "all > turns must be made to the left unless noted otherwise." However US > Government Vs. Joe Pilot, in appeals court, has shown the AIM, which is > not regulations, does show a standard pattern and has been upheld as > de-facto law. Meaning pilots not flying the pattern per the AIM can get > the FAA shaft. Now for the other side of the story. Flying a standard pattern behind a Piper Cub flying at 35 knots and doing a Bomber Pattern, (that is 5 miles downwind, 2 miles crosswind and another 5 miles on final with a 5 minute taxi on the runway before turn off on a taxiway) is sheer frustration for even a Citabria Pilot. My philosophy is if you are going to land, then land. Do not joy ride in the pattern. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 02:20:36 PM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye I *think* what you are seeing in the FWF kit, when they say "W/MUFF", is a cabin heat muff and not an exhaust muffler. I could be wrong, but if Van's has started providing mufflers it is news to me (and I am quite willing to be educated on the subject if I am wrong). Truth be told, I'm not sure I have _ever_ personally seen an RV with a muffler (at least not that I was aware of). -- Dwight do not archive On Tue May 10 16:17:13 2005, Paul Folbrecht wrote : >I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a >"muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so ineffective >that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most >RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's exhaust >stack. ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:01 PM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley From the people I have discussed FWF kits with, it a deletion. You can add and subtract from the FWF kit. You really do not need a muffler and in the end will not want a muffler. The prop makes most of the noise. I do not believe I have ever seen an RV with a muffler... I have heard of people using them. If your going with the Catto, you will be just fine. Darrell Paul Folbrecht wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a "muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so ineffective that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's exhaust stack. > Most RV's have no mufflers at all... not a Van's norm... > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:22 PM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley Actually, after looking they are deleting the aluminum heat muff and going with the stainless one. There is no muffler in the FWF kit. Darrell Paul Folbrecht wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a "muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so ineffective that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's exhaust stack. > Most RV's have no mufflers at all... not a Van's norm... > Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A #70125 N622DR (reserved) ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 03:05:10 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht As of now, no, I'm not the least bit sure. :-> --- RGray67968@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com > > Are you sure the FWF kit isn't referring to the HEAT MUFFLER.....as in 'heat > muff'?? You know, the little thingy for warming your toezzies : > ). > > Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 Flying & F1 Rocket on the way > (boy does that sound good)!! > > do not archive > I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a > "muffler". What I think you're saying is that this "muffler" is so > ineffective > that it barely qualifies as one. Correct? If not, you're saying that most > RVers do not use Van's FWF kits with their Lycs or do not use the Van's > exhaust > stack. > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:30 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Mattituck's standard alternator option is 55A. Seems like a prudent choice given that I'll all the same "toys" as well as the LASAR ignit which I believe draws about 4A. > Imho, every builder should do a current draw analysis on all of your toys to > size your alternator needs. Or just be lazy and go with a 60A setup. > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:22 PM PST US From: "Larry Pardue" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) --> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Darrell Reiley" Subject: Re: RV-List: Noisy Airplanes (was Rude RV'ers) > --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > > Actually, after looking they are deleting the aluminum heat muff and going > with the stainless one. There is no muffler in the FWF kit. > > Darrell > Yep what the listing says is at: http://www.vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/catalog.cgi?ident=1115764777-100-615&browse=engines&product=FF_Kit It is "1 EA EXH W/MUFF 320/ RV-6/6A/7/7A/8/8A/9A " Now MUFF may be carburator heat muff or may be cabin heat muff but it pretty sure isn't a muffler. Haven't seen a muffler yet on a Lycoming powered RV. Yes I know there are a few, mostly in Europe though. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:35 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Mattituck's standard alternator option is 55A. Seems like a prudent choice > given that I'll all the same "toys" as well as the LASAR ignit which I believe > draws about 4A. 4A? Wow. Sorry to hear you're using that LASAR stuff. Oh, and don't forget to agonize over internally versus externally regulated on the alternator... ;-) DO NOT ARCHIVE...this is all tongue-in-cheek )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 55 ____________________________________ Time: 04:59:21 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" At my home field, the flight schools teach huge patterns to their students - wide downwinds and long finals. I guess they want them to have time to think what the next step is. They also don't do touch and goes so every landing has a taxi back. Maybe what they're really teaching is how to run up the Hobbs. That's where they make their money. The bad news is that they are also teaching them to spend a lot of time in the pattern out of gliding range to the runway. One can't turn inside them as it's a towered airport. Most arriving traffic is given a straight in and call 3 mile final. Any traffic on downwind is forced to extend. This is all well and good except that you have to slow down a fair distance from the airport at low altitude and, if your engine quits, you're landing on the road. I usually ask for the overhead approach on first call up. This lets me drive on in to the airport at good speed which I can trade for altitude if the engine quits. I start to slow down when I've got the runway made and dissipate the rest of my speed in the break. My plan is to stay close enough to make the runway if the engine quits and I think it's more realistic than the big pattern. Arriving at untowered airports is only different in that you've got to provide your own traffic avoidance and spacing. If the pattern is occupied, one must fit in with the traffic. A modified overhead approach is safer than a straight in and much the same as crossing midfield to enter downwind. I start a little higher than the pattern and turn downwind with good spacing. If the guy I'm following is slow, I practice slow flight and try to stay reasonably close to the airport. If you're arriving from the direction of the pattern side of the airport, by all means enter on the 45 to downwind. By the way, you're right. A 180 degree approach is non-standard - a 360 degree overhead approach would be much more standard. ;-) Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bob Subject: Re: RV-List: Joy Riding in the Pattern --> RV-List message posted by: Bob > The 180 overhead landing is not standard. I do formation flying, > takeoff, approach and landing, including 180 overheads, however you have > to be aware that you will startle other pilots and folks on the ground > with mass arrivals and military patterns. Some bystanders love it, and my > RV buddies think everyone should love the show. They don't all love it. > May be it is jealousy, but just be sensitive to that. Also this could be > actionable by the FAA. Patterns are not specified by the FARs except "all > turns must be made to the left unless noted otherwise." However US > Government Vs. Joe Pilot, in appeals court, has shown the AIM, which is > not regulations, does show a standard pattern and has been upheld as > de-facto law. Meaning pilots not flying the pattern per the AIM can get > the FAA shaft. Now for the other side of the story. Flying a standard pattern behind a Piper Cub flying at 35 knots and doing a Bomber Pattern, (that is 5 miles downwind, 2 miles crosswind and another 5 miles on final with a 5 minute taxi on the runway before turn off on a taxiway) is sheer frustration for even a Citabria Pilot. My philosophy is if you are going to land, then land. Do not joy ride in the pattern. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 56 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:59 PM PST US From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht Seriously? I thought all the hard decisions had been made. Damn! Is it that big a deal? I admit I'm not expert, but I've never had an alternator failure (Ok, in my measly 300 hours) or heard of one firsthand even on airplanes with very old alternators. Which I think are all externally regulated.. I guess it's another point to research.. and I guess there is probably a reason why a B&C alternator costs 2x what the one Mattituck supplies does. I've had the alt. go gippy a few times but cycling it has always cured the problem. Anyway an alt. failure with two batts is not likely to result in an emergency. do not archive > Oh, and don't forget to agonize over internally versus externally regulated > on the alternator... ;-) > > DO NOT ARCHIVE...this is all tongue-in-cheek > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 57 ____________________________________ Time: 06:50:22 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Vans "muff"lers --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 05/10/2005 2:19:16 PM Central Standard Time, paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com writes: I'm still a tad confused on this. Van's FWF kits include what they call a "muffler". >>> Seems that when Van was showing fotos of the RV-10 prototype in progress that the exhaust had a muffler on it- was this a heat muff or are there actually mufflers on the demo ships? Mark - do not archive ________________________________ Message 58 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:44 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > problem. Anyway an alt. failure with two batts is not likely to result in an > emergency. Nor is an alternator failure with ONE battery if you design your system appropriately and always use a healthy battery. AeroElectric Connection spiel over... do not archive ________________________________ Message 59 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:48 PM PST US From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RV-List: Just trashing my first flap!! --> RV-List message posted by: "Allen Fulmer" I haven't had this much trouble since I took 3 attempts to get a good trim tab!! Wing top skins went beautiful, leading edges, ailerons, but I have trashed my first flap! Bad thing is I don't know what to do different?? The 3x rivet gun is bouncing all around making smileys galore! I can't really get my hand down inside to get a good hold on the bucking bar! First 3 rivets on an inside rib and 2 are sticking out halfway and the other has a big smiley looking at me! And things seemed to be going so good and I was so proud of my work! Maybe that was the problem? Time to go to bed I guess. Maybe I can learn what I am doing on this trashed flap and if the other one turns out good I can just order another set of parts. Frustrating! Can't quit! Got to go on! Tomorrow will be a better day! Allen Fulmer RV7 Wings, QB Fuse on hand N707AF reserved DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 60 ____________________________________ Time: 08:08:28 PM PST US From: "David Carter" Subject: Re: RV-List: Just trashing my first flap!! --> RV-List message posted by: "David Carter" Are you using a "swivel flush rivet set"? And what air pressure are you using? Should be down around 35psi? (been along time, but definitely not up at 60 or 80 psi). Straight, unswiveled rivet sets ought to be banned from RV shops. David ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Fulmer" Subject: RV-List: Just trashing my first flap!! > --> RV-List message posted by: "Allen Fulmer" > > I haven't had this much trouble since I took 3 attempts to get a good trim > tab!! > > Wing top skins went beautiful, leading edges, ailerons, but I have trashed > my first flap! Bad thing is I don't know what to do different?? The 3x > rivet gun is bouncing all around making smileys galore! I can't really get > my hand down inside to get a good hold on the bucking bar! First 3 rivets > on an inside rib and 2 are sticking out halfway and the other has a big > smiley looking at me! And things seemed to be going so good and I was so > proud of my work! Maybe that was the problem? > > Time to go to bed I guess. Maybe I can learn what I am doing on this > trashed flap and if the other one turns out good I can just order another > set of parts. > > Frustrating! Can't quit! Got to go on! Tomorrow will be a better day! > > Allen Fulmer > RV7 Wings, QB Fuse on hand > N707AF reserved > > DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 61 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:42 PM PST US From: "LARRY ADAMSON" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: "LARRY ADAMSON" ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Folbrecht Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Sources for electrical system design --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Folbrecht paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com This alternator debate has been a tough one. I have a 60 internally regulated alt. from Van's. A few years ago, I installed the O.V, protection that opened the main cable from the alt. to battery. Turns out, that removing the alt field voltage won't shut down an internally regulated alternator, and disconnecting from the battery can cause a load dump. Haven't yet flown the plane, but it looks like I'm taking out the O.V. (over voltage) setup. There is a good discussion of this on the Matronics Aeroelectric list during the last month. Seriously? I thought all the hard decisions had been made. Damn! Is it that big a deal? I admit I'm not expert, but I've never had an alternator failure (Ok, in my measly 300 hours) or heard of one firsthand even on airplanes with very old alternators. Which I think are all externally regulated.. I guess it's another point to research.. and I guess there is probably a reason why a B&C alternator costs 2x what the one Mattituck supplies does. ________________________________ Message 62 ____________________________________ Time: 09:09:32 PM PST US From: Finn Lassen Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Rude RVers? --> RV-List message posted by: Finn Lassen And here is the reply I sent to Tom. We are basically in perfect agreement. Hi Tom, Yes, I wish I had talked to more first-hand witnesses before posting that message. Ideally, one of them [RVers] would have been on the list and able to reply and put an end to it right away. I have no idea they were on the way out of the country. I now have a rather low opinion of the person that gave me the original "data". However, it does seem that they busted St Pete's airspace. If they executed their break to landing at pattern altitude, then they just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. [should have said "inopportune" instead of "wrong" here]. Personally I love formation flying and admire a well executed formation. I really wish I had been there. Finn Tom Coggin wrote: >Dear Finn Lassen, > >I know all of the owners and pilots of the named aircraft in your post >to the Matronics RV list as I flew with them to the Turks and Caicos a >year or so ago. None of them were rude or inconsiderate on that trip. On >that trip I saw all of them experience delays and excessive paperwork >with patience and courtesy. One of the group was once very plainspoken >but when he expressed his forthright opinion about the price of a taxi >ride in the Bahamas, I was in complete agreement with him. Even then he >was not rude to the taxi driver. > >All of them are careful and safe pilots. I would fly in formation or >with anyone of them. None of them are "HOTDOGS". If this trip was >handled as the one I was on, it was extremely well planned and >researched. They would certainly have known of and complied with the >proper traffic patterns at planned refueling stops. > >I am sure it will come as a shock to them when they return from their >trip to learn that they had insulted or inconviencied anyone. > >I am a little disturbed by your post on the RV list which is widely read >in the RV community. Your posting of tail numbers after hearing only one >side of the controversy is (in my opinion) at least inconsiderate of the >owners of those airplanes. RV's having become more numerous and often >flown in groups seem to invite the ire of others more so than regular >certified aircraft which do not as often travel in groups. Flying as a >group is perfectly legal and proper and honored by the FAA but is >unusual in the eyes of the non flying public but is widely practiced in >my part of the country by RVers. > >Tom Coggin, RV6 N112WA >(256) 775-0383 >motniggo@localnet.com > do not archive