Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:28 AM - tools and canopy cover for sale (Paul Lein)
2. 06:04 AM - Whelen strobe firing pattern (Bob Collins)
3. 07:40 AM - Re: Dynon AOA (David Fenstermacher)
4. 07:46 AM - Re: Dynon AOA (Dan Brown)
5. 08:40 AM - Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts (Karen and Robert Brown)
6. 08:42 AM - Re: Dynon AOA (not processed: message from valid local sender) (meljordan@earthlink.net)
7. 09:09 AM - The engine breather (Crosley, Rich)
8. 09:27 AM - Re: The engine breather (linn walters)
9. 09:29 AM - Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts (Mickey Coggins)
10. 09:32 AM - Re: off-center induction (Mike Robertson)
11. 10:39 AM - Re: The engine breather (JOHN STARN)
12. 10:46 AM - AOA REPRINT for the archives (Philip Condon)
13. 11:03 AM - Re: Re nose-gear cowl interface (Greg Grigson)
14. 11:18 AM - Fl Wing Vans Airforce RV Bar -B- Que Fly-in lunch (Oliver Washburn)
15. 11:33 AM - Re: tools and canopy cover for sale (sportav8r@aol.com)
16. 01:35 PM - Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA (Chris W)
17. 02:14 PM - Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA (Scott)
18. 02:14 PM - Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts (Greg@itmack)
19. 05:35 PM - Patent rights, was: Re: Dynon AOA (Charlie England)
20. 05:37 PM - Re: Dynon AOA (Charlie England)
21. 06:04 PM - Filter Bypass Door (Richard Reynolds)
22. 06:27 PM - Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA (Charlie England)
23. 07:01 PM - Re: Dynon AOA (Matt Johnson)
24. 07:10 PM - AFS Patent (was Dynon AOA) (Matt Johnson)
25. 07:10 PM - Re: tools and canopy cover for sale (Bill and Tami Britton)
26. 08:08 PM - Re: Dynon AOA (Richard E. Tasker)
27. 08:15 PM - Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA (David Fenstermacher)
28. 08:31 PM - Re: Dynon AOA (Vanremog@aol.com)
29. 10:26 PM - Re: The engine breather (HCRV6@aol.com)
30. 10:29 PM - Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | tools and canopy cover for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Lein <pj115@journey.com>
I've sold my 6a and have the tools I used to build it and an Orndorf
silver canopy cover for sale. I am in central MI and will sell cheap
to whoever comes to pick up this stuff. Everything 40% of new price.
Show me today's price and we'll know what you will pay.
Paul
Message 2
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| Subject: | Whelen strobe firing pattern |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
Good morning:
I purchased a Whelen System 6 (Model HDACF) from Van's Aircraft a year or
so ago for installation in the RV7A which is presently under construction.
When testing out the unit prior to installation, I notice that the pattern
of firing is different that what is indicated. The wing strobes seem to
flash at the logical interview, and then the tail strobe flashes, but the
tail strobe also flashes when the wing strobes fire, in addition to in the
interval between wing tip strobe firing.
The jumper jumps pins 1 & 2 at the proper location as the instruction
say.
My concern, of course, is the tail strobe gets REALLY hot because of the
number of fires.
Anyone have a clue on this?
Bob
St. Paul
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
Article I, Section 8.
That would be the Constitution.......
Dave
Absolutely do not archive
> [Original Message]
> From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 6/5/2005 11:21:08 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon AOA
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> David Fenstermacher wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher"
<dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
> >
> >That is absolutely not true.
> >It doesn't matter if you sell it or not.
> >You cannot make, use, or sell..... for financial gain or not.
> >ALthough, as has been pointed out, you probably won't get sued... but you
> >could.
> >
> >Trust me on this - I do patents for a living.
> >
> >Dave
> >
>
> Oh, I trust you. But surely you won't mind if I verify by asking you to
> quote chapter & verse from US code.
>
> Charlie
> (I've got this great idea. Can you do me a patent?)
>
>
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: Dan Brown <dan@familybrown.org>
Quoting Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>:
> Oh, I trust you. But surely you won't mind if I verify by asking you to
> quote chapter & verse from US code.
I'm not David, but I think this would be relevant, from 35 USC sec. 271:
271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in this
title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know all
the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but the
general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, dan@familybrown.org
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" <bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
I used SikaFlex 295UV adhesive to attach my canopy to the frame, and then used
it again to attach the side and aft skirts to the canopy. I thought I might have
to lay up glass aft canopy skirts, but was finally able to achieve a near
perfect fit except for the lower corners, where I had about a 1/4" gap. Some
other builders looked at it and assured me I could just put a soft bend there
by hand once the skirts were attached with the adhesive With some degree of trepidation...that's
what it did and it worked out great. I was worried I'd put
a "kink" in the metal that would be visible, but there are no bend lines visible
under the bright lights...it worked out fine. One of my other neighbors,
(a sheet metal guru) assured me a shrinker would work also, but I'm very happy
with the fit I have now. Personally, I think one of the big variables in how
you're able to fit the aft canopy skirts revolves around how much "tail" of
the canopy you leave hanging off the back of the frame. The angle that the canopy
skirt meets the canopy dictates much of the fit where the aft skirt meets
the turtle deck and the sides of the fuse. This is where using the adhesive
gives you the advantage...you need a minimum thickness of adhesive for a good
bond. Tipping the aft canopy slightly onto the skin allows that space to occur,
and also gives the good fit you're looking for.
Bob Brown
RV7A - wiring Trutrak ADI - waiting on engine.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Dynon AOA (not processed: message from valid local sender) |
--> RV-List message posted by: meljordan@earthlink.net
Before this goes too far, Dynon is not making any patent claimes on AOA or differential
pressure technologies. This is just a thread gone wild. Dynon only
offers AOA as an option for the EFIS systems and does not claim to own this technique
or any patent. Dynon does not care if you build your own AOA or if
you sell your AOA. I am sure that Dynon would not want you to copy their software,
which I believe probably is covered by a copyright, but as far as the concept
of differential pressure AOA, that is not something that Dynon claims in
any way.
Thanks,
Mel Jordan,
Tucson - RV-6A
Subject: Re: Dynon AOA (not processed: message from valid local
From: Wayne Glasser (ku-tec@bigpond.net.au)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Glasser" <ku-tec@bigpond.net.au>
Matt
Do you have a patent number for Dynon. I would like to clarify their claims
Thanks
Wayne
Message 7
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| Subject: | The engine breather |
0.38 FROM_NO_LOWER From address has no lower-case characters
--> RV-List message posted by: "Crosley, Rich" <RCROSLEY@HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM>
What are you doing with the breather pipe? I set mine up per the
directions, ran it down above the exhaust pipe. But....I still get oil on
the belly. My current thought is to buy the $40.00 Spruce air-oil
separator, open it up and put in the scrub pad and mount it on the firewall.
If I do that.......what do I do with the oil? Run it back in the engine
(not sure I like that option), run it into a bottle or other container, or
overboard, but then how do I keep it off the airplane? Run a line to the
tail? What's working for everyone?
Rich Crosley
RV8, N948RC
Rosamond, CA
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: The engine breather |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Rich, I'm a firm believer that air/oil separators only cover up a bigger
problem, and, as you pointed out, what do you do with the crud??? I've
never seen the results of venting the crankcase breather over the
exhaust pipt, so can't comment. In the short term, are you sure that's
where the 'belly crud' is coming from??? Try venting the crankcase into
a tall bottle and wash down the whole cowl area to get rid of any excess
oil. A little oil really looks like a gallon when it's spread
everywhere!!! With a clean plane and a place to catch the blow-by
stuff, you can tell where the oil is coming from, for sure. IMHO,
fixing the problem, not covering it up is prime consideration. If you
find that the oil is coming from the breather, just keep that bottle
there and empty every month or so.
Linn do not archive
Crosley, Rich wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Crosley, Rich" <RCROSLEY@HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM>
>
>What are you doing with the breather pipe? I set mine up per the
>directions, ran it down above the exhaust pipe. But....I still get oil on
>the belly. My current thought is to buy the $40.00 Spruce air-oil
>separator, open it up and put in the scrub pad and mount it on the firewall.
>If I do that.......what do I do with the oil? Run it back in the engine
>(not sure I like that option), run it into a bottle or other container, or
>overboard, but then how do I keep it off the airplane? Run a line to the
>tail? What's working for everyone?
>
>Rich Crosley
>RV8, N948RC
>Rosamond, CA
>
>
>
>
--
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Bob,
Sounds like a very slick installation. Do you have any
pictures you can share? I'm planning on gluing on my
canopy as well, so any hints are most appreciated.
Thanks,
Mickey
> I used SikaFlex 295UV adhesive to attach my canopy to the frame, and
> then used it again to attach the side and aft skirts to the canopy.
> I thought I might have to lay up glass aft canopy skirts, but was
> finally able to achieve a near perfect fit except for the lower
> corners, where I had about a 1/4" gap. Some other builders looked at
> it and assured me I could just put a soft bend there by hand once the
> skirts were attached with the adhesive With some degree of
> trepidation...that's what it did and it worked out great. I was
> worried I'd put a "kink" in the metal that would be visible, but
> there are no bend lines visible under the bright lights...it worked
> out fine. One of my other neighbors, (a sheet metal guru) assured me
> a shrinker would work also, but I'm very happy with the fit I have
> now. Personally, I think one of the big variables in how you're able
> to fit the aft canopy skirts revolves around how much "tail" of the
> canopy you leave hanging off the back of the fra! me. The angle that
> the canopy skirt meets the canopy dictates much of the fit where the
> aft skirt meets the turtle deck and the sides of the fuse. This is
> where using the adhesive gives you the advantage...you need a minimum
> thickness of adhesive for a good bond. Tipping the aft canopy
> slightly onto the skin allows that space to occur, and also gives the
> good fit you're looking for.
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
Message 10
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| Subject: | off-center induction |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
While we are on the subject of the FAB and Airflow Performance this might be
a good time to let everyone know about something that we discovered on this
last yearly condition inspection. If you have the vertically mounted
Airflow Performance fuel injection servo and are using Van's Air box then I
suggest that you do NOT install the filter by-pass door. This is the little
door that is held closed with a small magnet on the bottom plate of the
filter. The Airflow Performance servo mount uses a "donut" ring bolted to
the upper FAB plate Airflow furnishes with their servo. It replaces the
original one that comes with the Van's airbox. The donut mounts inside the
airbox and reduces the airpath height by about half. This reduction in
height increase the velocity of the air going past the dounut and into the
servo. No big deal unless you have the by-pass door installed. Physics
says that with an increase in velocity there is a decrease in pressure. Low
pressure is what causes the by-pass door to come open should the filter get
clogged.
During the last condition inspection and cleaning of the filter we noticed
rub marks on the by-pass door and corresponding marks on the mounting donut.
It became very apparent that the by-pass door was opening every time the
RPM/manifold pressure went beyond a certain point. Everytime the engine
shut down the door would re-close so there was no tell-tale. So for much of
the last year we were flying around with carb heat on and un-filtered air.
This expains a lot of the problems we were having, such as varying
performance, wierd things happening dsiguised as spark plug problems, fuel
injector problems, cylinder temperature problems, etc.
Once we found this we "glued" the door shut using some high temp RTV so see
what it would do. The very first thing I noticed was an increase of almost
1/2 inch of manifold pressure as full throttle. The next things I found
were lower CHTs, lower oil temps, lower fule consumption, and about a 3-4
mph increase in airspeed for a given throttle and prop setting.
So.....if you intend on installing an Airflow Performance fuel injection
system, I highly recommend that you do NOT install the FAB air fliter
by-pass door.
Good flying everyone and be safe.
Mike Robertson
RV-8A, RV-6A, and RV-9a
God, I much be a sadist, I starting another RV-8A
>From: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: off-center induction
>Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:32:36 -0700
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
>
>I am just finishing up my Filtered Air Box & cowling installation on my
>RV-8A with a Superior/Aero Sport Power IO-360-b1b with Airflow Performance
>fuel injection. My finish kit came with the oval plate that mounts the top
>of the FAB to the Airflow Performance fuel metering box, and another
>anodized one came with my engine, but I had to make about three more before
>I got the FAB offset back toward the centerline enough to clear the inside
>of cowl air scoop. If I offset it enough to come close to centering it in
>the scoop, there it didn't leave enough room on one side of the FAB for the
>filter. I ended up offsetting the hole in the oval plate 3/8" from the
>parts that came from Van's and with the engine. I think it also angles
>slightly to the scoop inlet.
>
>Since there were several reports of the plate cracking, I made the new ones
>out of heavier aluminum plate.
>
>Terry
>RV-8A
>Seattle
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: sarg314 <sarg314@comcast.net>
>
>My IO360-B2B (vertical induction) mounts the AFP fuel controller off to
>the left a bit, which I gather is normal. My circa 1999 Van's manual
>seems to indicate that the induction scoop should be mounted in the
>center of the lower cowling and the FAB should angle to the right a bit
>to link up to it.
>
>I believe I recall that some folks actually mount the induction scoop
>off center to line up with the carb/fuel controller.
>
>Which is best, or does it not make much difference. I favor centering
>the scoop.
>--
>Tom Sargent, RV-6A, cowling.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: The engine breather |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" <jhstarn@verizon.net>
On HRII N561FS we tried several methods. Putting two different types of
"separators" into the system, Reducing the outlet size of the tubing &
running that onto the exhaust pipe. Running the rubber hose full size to the
exhaust pipe, putting a hole in the top of the "loop" to relieve suction.
Bottom line: ANYTHING you put into the venting system will cause back
pressure inside the engine case & that can cause leaks there the engine
seams meet. "Blowby" is what is being vented and any restriction can cause
problems. IMNSHO run the hose "full" size (in our case 1 1/4" OD) to the
exhaust pipe with minimum restriction.
KABONG 8*) Do Not Archive.
----- Original Message -----
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Crosley, Rich"
> <RCROSLEY@HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM>
>
> Rich Crosley
> RV8, N948RC
> Rosamond, CA
Message 12
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| Subject: | AOA REPRINT for the archives |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Philip Condon" <pcondon@mitre.org>
Bulletin No. 21
PRESSURE MEASUREMENT FROM NCAR AIRCRAFT
rev. 10/91
----
General
This Bulletin describes the types of pressure measurements and the sensors
and transducers used to make them. Performance specifications and
information on transducer accuracy are also included.
Pressure Measurements
Both static (absolute) and differential pressure measurements are made at
various locations on the RAF aircraft. Table I summarizes the measurements,
their location, and the type of transducer used.
The static pressure measurements are made through a static pressure port,
flush on the side of the fuselage or on the side of a pitot-static tube.
This port is connected to either a Rosemount Model 1201 capacitive-type
absolute pressure transducer or a Rosemount Model 1501 digital absolute
pressure transducer. The Rosemount Model 1201F series absolute pressure
transducer uses a diaphragm-driven capacitance-measuring circuit. The
Rosemount Model 1501 high-accuracy digital absolute pressure transducer
outputs a pressure-dependent frequency signal.
Differential pressure measurements are made with either a pitot-static tube
or a pitot tube referenced to a static port. The differential pressure
measurements are used to determine aircraft dynamic pressure and flow angle
(angles of attack and sideslip of the aircraft). Dynamic pressure (Qc) is
the difference between the total pitot pressure (Pt) and the static pressure
(Ps).
Qc = Pt - Ps
The true airspeed of the aircraft (TAS) is calculated from measurements of
this pitot-static difference, the static pressure, and the total air
temperature using Bernoulli's equation. (See RAF Bulletin No. 9.)
Flow-angle measurements are made with either a Rosemount Model 858AJ
flow-angle sensor of a nose radome flow-angle pressure-sensing
configuration. In flow-angle measurements, differential pressures are
measured in the horizontal and vertical axes, relative to the aircraft, at
or near the nose of the aircraft. These pressure differentials are used with
the dynamic pressure at the aircraft nose or boom to determine the angles of
attack and sideslip of the aircraft.
The RAF currently uses an electrically-deiced flow-angle sensing probe
(Rosemount Model 858AJ) that can be interchangeably mounted on any of the
aircraft. This flow angle sensor is hemispheric, capping a cylindrical tube,
as shown in Figure 1.
Figure 1. Schematic Representation of the Rosemount 858AJ Flow-Angle Sensor
The attack and sideslip angles of the aircraft are determined from the
Rosemount Model 858AJ flow-angle sensor by the following equations:
ATTACK = ADIF / (GR * QCB)
SIDESLIP = BDIF / (GR * QCB)
Here ADIF is the differential pressure across the vertical axis of the
probe. BDIF is the differential pressure across the horizontal axis of the
probe. QCB is the dynamic pressure at the probe tip. GR is the normalized
sensitivity coefficient, which for Rosemount 858AJ probe is 0.079 for Mach
numbers below 0.51.
The radome technique for flow-angle sensing is similar, in principle, to
that used with the Rosemount Model 858AJ probe. The major difference is that
the nose of the airplane itself is used as a probe instead of the separate
flow-angle sensor, as shown in Figure 2. In-situ calibration techniques are
used for each aircraft to determine the normalized sensitivity coefficients.
Details of the radome technique are discussed by Brown, et al., 1983.
Figure 2. Sketch of Nose Radome Flow-Sensing Configuration on the NCAR
Sabreliner and Detail of Pressure Taps in the Radome
At present the radome flow-angle sensing configuration is available on the
King Air N312D, the Sabreliner (N307D), and the Electra (N308D) aircraft.
The King Air and the Electra radomes are heated and will function well under
most atmospheric conditions. The Sabreliner radome is unheated; thus, the
range of atmospheric conditions in which it will function properly is
somewhat limited. (Icing conditions and liquid water will adversely affect
radome performance on the Sabreliner.)
The Rosemount Model 1221F series differential pressure transducer is used
for differential pressure measurement for determining high-rate winds in the
gust probe dynamic pressure measurement on RAF aircraft. The 1332 series
transducer is used in this application, because it can be located out in the
boom closer to the Qc measuring point. (The size of the 1221 transducer does
not allow this. See the line-length tabluation in Table I.) Both types of
differential-pressure transducers us a diaphragm-driven capacitive
pressure-sensing capsule. {Obsolete: For high-rate winds and turbulence
studies, the gust-probe dynamic pressure is used with flow-angle
measurements obtained from fixed vanes rather than with the Rosemount Model
858AJ differential pressure flow-angle sensor. (The vanes use strain gauges
to measure the force, which is proportional to the flow angle.)}
TABLE I: Pressure Measurements
Measurement Description Transducer Used
(Rosemount Model) Nominal Line Length
Sensor to Transducer (M)
N307D N308D N312D
PSW Static pressure at the wing tip 1201 3.6 1.2
PSB Static Pressure at the boom 1201 5.4
PSF Static pressure at the fuselage 1201 4.9
PSFD Static pressure at the fuselage (digital) 1501 5.2 12.2 2.4
PCAB Static pressure in the aircraft cabin 1205
QCW Dynamic pressure at the wing tip 1221 3.6 1.5
QCB Dynamic pressure at the boom 1221 5.4
QCF Dynamic pressure at the fuselage 1221 2.9
4.9* 2.0
QCR Dynamic pressure at the radome 1221 2.1
5.5* 1.7
ADIF Differential pressure in the vertical plane on the boom w/Rosemount
858AJ 1221 5.4
BDIF Differential pressure in the horizontal plane on the boom w/Rosemount
858AJ 1221 5.4
ADIFR Differential pressure in the vertical plane on the radome w/radome
1221 2.1 1.7 0.9
0.6*
BDIFR Differential pressure in the horizontal plane on the radome w/radome
1221 2.1 1.7 0.8
0.6*
All pressure lines are 4.32mm I.D.
* The high-pressure line lehgth is given first.
Correction for Static Pressure Defect
Pressure measurements on board an aircraft are affected by local flow-field
distortions, and corrections are made for these pressure defects. The
corrections are unique to both the aircraft and the position of the
measurement on the aircraft.
The correction for static pressure error for a given location on a given
aircraft may be determined by flying by an instrumented tower (equipped with
a precision barometer) at various air speeds (varying dynamic pressure, Qc).
The pertinent meteorological data (ambient static pressure, etc.) are
recorded simultaneously on the aircraft and on the tower. Pressure
corrections ("PCORs") are determined from a regression between the static
pressure differences measured between the tower reference and the aircraft
versus the dynamic pressure, Qc, measured on the aircraft.
An example of a PCOR calculation follows (In this case QCF is a measurement
of uncorrected dynamic pressure; PSF is an uncorrected static pressure
measurement.):
PCOR(QCF) = C1 + C2 * QCF
Here C1 and C2 are coefficients determined from the regression, in this case
a first-order regression. Thus, the corrected static pressure would be:
PSFC = PSF + PCOR (QCF)
For dynamic pressure correction, the sign of the PCOR is reversed as shown
below.
PSFC = PSF + PCOR (QCF)
QCFC = PPitot - {PStatic + PCOR(QCF)} = QCF - PCOR(QCF)
PCORs have been determined at RAF using both tower flybys and trailing-cone
tests. Extensive trailing-cone calibrations have been completed on the RAF
aircraft; this procedure and uncertainty analysis are discussed by Brown,
1988.
Table II lists the "PCORs" for each RAF aircraft.
Table II: PCOR Tabulation (not avaliable)
Transducer Specifications
Performance and environmental specifications for the pressure transducers
used on NCAR aircraft are shown in Table III. This information was obtained
from "Product Data Sheets" provided by the manufacturer, Rosemount, Inc.
TABLE III: Specifications for Rosemount Pressure Transducer Models
1501 Digital Absolute (FSP=1000 mbar) 1201F Absolute (FSP=1034 mbar) 1221
Differential (FSP=? mbar) 1332 Differential (FSP=172.4 mbar)
Operating Accuracy 0.042% FSP
(0.42mbar)* 0.30% FSP
(3.0 mbar)** Refer to Table IV 0.20% FSP
(0.35 mbar)***
Static Error
The static error is the root sum square of the errors due to nonlinearity,
repeatability, hysteresis and resolution. 0.026% FSP
(0.26 mbar) 0.10% FSP
(1.0 mbar) 0.10% FSP 0.10% FSP
(0.2 mbar)
Long-Term Stability
Change in output over period indicated 0.025% FSP
(12 months) 0.15% FSP
(6 months) 0.15% FSP
(6 months) 0.15% FSP
(6 months)
Response Time
(63% response) 75 milliseconds 15 milliseconds 10 milliseconds 10
milliseconds
Operating Temperature Range -55C to +81C -55 to +71C -55C to +71C
(Electronically compensated range) -18C to +65C (Electronically compensated
range)
* This is the root sum square error, which includes dynamic error (stated by
Rosemount as 0.021% FSP), the static error, and the long-term stability.
** The reported operating accuracy includes the effect of ambient
temperature on the transducer. Laboratory tests at RAF indicate that ambient
temperature changes on the order of 2C per minute produce static pressure
errors of 1.0 to 1.5 mbar in the 1201 series transducer. Thus, if the
ambient temperature around the transducer is controlled, by locating the
transducer in the aircraft cabin for instance, the operating accuracy is
greatly improved.
*** This value is an estimated root sum square error obtained from errors
(stated by Rosemount) caused by various environmental factors. This value
includes the static error in the root sum square calculation.
TABLE IV: Differential Pressure Measurements and the Operating Accuracies of
the Rosemount 1221 Transducer used for each Measurement (-55C to +71C)
Aircraft Measurement Transducer Pressure Range Used Accuracy*
Electra N308D QCRC 206.8 mbar
275.8 mbar 0.27% FSP (0.6 mbar)
0.23% FSP (0.6 mbar)
Electra N308D ADIFR, BDIFR 68.9 mbar
51.7 mbar 0.27% FSP (0.2 mbar)
0.37% FSP (0.2 mbar)
* The operating accuracy includes the static accuracy as well as calibration
tolerance and the effect of ambient temperature over the compensated range
(-55C to +71C).
Error Propagation
Pressure measurement error, either static of differential, will propagate
into parameters derived from those pressure measurements. Errors propagated
to selected derived measurements are shown in Table V. For illustration
purposes, the errors shown are those that would result for each 1.0 mbar
error in the corresponding measured pressure. Details of the measurement
uncertainty of true air speed, angle of attack, and sideslip applicable to
RAF aircraft are discussed in Brown, 1991.
TABLE V: Error Propagation
Measurement
(1.0 mbar error) Conditions Derived measurement to which error is propagated
TAS (M/s) Wind speed (M/s)* W (M/s) Attack (deg) Sideslip (deg)
Static Pressure 750 mbar
(Qc=35 mbar) 0.05 0.05
540 mbar
(Qc=81 mbar) 0.05 0.13
760 mbar
(Qc=93 mbar) 0.09 0.09
Dynamic Pressure 750 mbar
(Qc=35 mbar) 1.18 1.18 0.14 0.09
540 mbar
(Qc=81 mbar) 0.78 0.78 0.05 0.05
760 mbar
(Qc=93 mbar) 0.65 0.65 0.10 0.4
Attack Differential Pressure 750 mbar
(Qc=35 mbar) 0.48 0.37
540 mbar
(Qc=81 mbar) 0.42 0.16
760 mbar
(Qc=93 mbar) 0.35 0.14
Sideslip Differential Pressure 750 mbar
(Qc=35 mbar) 0.37
540 mbar
(Qc=81 mbar) 0.16
760 mbar
(Qc=93 mbar) 0.14
* Assumes wind is along the longitudinal axis (worst case for error
attributable to the pressure measurement)
References
1. Rosemount Engineering Co., Post Office Box 35129, Minneapolis, MN 55435
2. Brown, E.N., C.A. Friehe, and D.H. Lenschow, 1983: The use of pressure
fluctuations on the nose of aircraft for measuring air motion, J. Clim.
Appl. Meteorol., 22, 171-180.
3. Brown, E.N., 1988: Position Error Calibration of a Pressure Survey
Aircraft Using a Trailing Cone. NCAR Tech. Note (NCAR/TN-313+STR). NCAR,
Boulder, Colo., 29 pp.
4. Brown, E.N., 1991: The Uncertainty Analysis of a Radome Flush Orifice
Air Motion System for the Measurement of Aircraft Incident Angles. NCAR
Tech. Note (NCAR/TN-359+STR). NCAR, Boulder, Colo., 27 pp.
----
RAF Technical Bulletins | RAF Home Page | ATD Home Page | NCAR Home Page
----
Last update: Thu Nov 30 15:40:05 MST 2000
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Re nose-gear cowl interface |
--> RV-List message posted by: Greg Grigson <iflyhawaii2@yahoo.com>
Thanks for the reply Henry. I think I will go a
similar route.
Aloha.
Greg
--- elsa-henry <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "elsa-henry"
> <elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com>
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> >I'm wrapping up my RV-6A finally! I can't find
> "Figure"
> >10-10 in my RV6/6A instructions (which are eight
> years
> >old by now). Am I missing anything earth
> shattering---
>
> I think you had a a bad choice of words when you
> wrote "Figure" above! My instruction book ( which is
> ten years old) shows on page 10-10, SK 82, the
> set-up for checking the nose wheel fork breakout
> force. The text continues on page 10-11 (for the
> whole page) giving instructions how to manage the
> slot that must be cut in the cowl to allow its
> installation and removal. I built the plates as
> shown in SK 81 on page 10-12 and that works out OK.
> (Maybe you are missing these 2 pages?--if so I can
> scan copies and send them to you).
>
> However, I didn't bother to make the the sculptured
> fairing to go around the leg as described.The slot
> has to be extended forward to alow the cowl
> installation to clear the leg as it is brought into
> place and to clear the prop spinner. I made a
> seperate plate to close that slot once the cowl is
> installed, held in place with 4 6-32 screws into
> nut-plates in the cowl.
>
> Cheers!--Henry Hore --C-GELS
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fl Wing Vans Airforce RV Bar -B- Que Fly-in lunch |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Oliver Washburn" <ollie6a@earthlink.net>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ollie Washburn" ollie6a@earthlink.net
NOTE: To all listers within range. This SAT.(June 11th) is the Florida VAF RV
fly-in at Love's Landing Airpark featuring Ollie's FAMOUS Bar-BQ pork.
Place: Love's Ldg Airpark (97FL). On sectional chart. 21nm 126* Ocf VOR. Check
Doug Reeve's calendar and AIR NAV airport data.
N 28-57-43 W 081-53-29
Time: Coffee and donuts for early birds and lunch @ noon.
Food: Bar-BQ Pork, Lasagna, Hamburgers, Hotdogs and all the fixins.
Contributions: We are asking $6/plate for all you can eat as long as the food
lasts and this includes the drinks.
Forums: There are no forums, just everybody talking about their love of flying
and RVs.
We have put in a request for good weather and hope to see the airpark full of RVs.
NOTE--This is a private airpark so landing is at your own risk. 18/36 3700 ft.
Do not archive and thanks.
Ollie 6A
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: tools and canopy cover for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Paul, if you'd be willing to ship that canopy cover, shoot me an email.
-Stormy
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Lein <pj115@journey.com>
Subject: RV-List: tools and canopy cover for sale
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Lein <pj115@journey.com>
I've sold my 6a and have the tools I used to build it and an Orndorf
silver canopy cover for sale. I am in central MI and will sell cheap
to whoever comes to pick up this stuff. Everything 40% of new price.
Show me today's price and we'll know what you will pay.
Paul
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
Dan Brown wrote:
> 271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in this
>title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
>*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
>United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
>during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
>
>(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know all
>the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but the
>general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
>
>
I don't find it all that cut and dry. It seems worded clearly enough,
and would seem to indicate that if you make a "patented invention", that
"infringes the patent". However it also says that if you use a
"patented invention", that also "infringes the patent", I don't know
about you, but everyday I use several things that are patented, dose
that mean I am infringement of those patents? Now if it said "makes and
uses", I would be with you, but it said "makes, uses". I'm going to
read more before I am going to be convinced of exactly what that means.
Also what you quote comes from the US Patent Act, I don't know much
about this legal stuff, but I thought that all federal laws on this, or
anything, have to be in the applicable CFR (Code of Federal
Regulations), in this case CFR Title 37. Like I said I don't know much
about it just curious
do not archive
--
Chris W
Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
http://thewishzone.com
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott <batfinks@mchsi.com>
I missed the first part of this discussion, so I may be way off base
here on the premise, but...
I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, but I do hold a few
patents (although they are assigned to a corporation). I have also had
several discussions with patent weasels...er lawyers.
A couple of points here:
1) I know, but could not point out the song and verse where it is
spelled out, that you can build and use anyting for your own consumption
and not run afoul of patent laws. Now if you build a hundred of them
and give them to your freinds, the patent holder may have a case against
you if he decides to sue you.
2) The Government does not enforce patent law. The patent holder must
bring a civil suit to assert his patent against each person/entity who
is infringing it.
3) A patent is worthless unless the patent holder spends the bucks to
sue someone who is infringing the patent. Unless you have ticked off
the patent holder personally, even if you do violate the patent on a
small-scale, it probably wouldn't be worth the holder's time and money
to pursue a suit against you.
4) HOWEVER, you may not infringe a patent for gain, NOR encourage
other's to do so. Publishing a web page on how to violate someone's
patent would probably get you a stongly worded letter from the patent
holder's lawyer with the threat of a lawsuit. Whether he would pursue
the lawsuit or would prevail if he did is another matter.
Scott
Chris W wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
>
>Dan Brown wrote:
>
>
>
>>271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in this
>>title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
>>*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
>>United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
>>during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
>>
>>(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know all
>>the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but the
>>general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>I don't find it all that cut and dry. It seems worded clearly enough,
>and would seem to indicate that if you make a "patented invention", that
>"infringes the patent". However it also says that if you use a
>"patented invention", that also "infringes the patent", I don't know
>about you, but everyday I use several things that are patented, dose
>that mean I am infringement of those patents? Now if it said "makes and
>uses", I would be with you, but it said "makes, uses". I'm going to
>read more before I am going to be convinced of exactly what that means.
>
>Also what you quote comes from the US Patent Act, I don't know much
>about this legal stuff, but I thought that all federal laws on this, or
>anything, have to be in the applicable CFR (Code of Federal
>Regulations), in this case CFR Title 37. Like I said I don't know much
>about it just curious
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
Message 18
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| From: | "Greg@itmack" <greg@itmack.com> |
| Subject: | Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Greg@itmack" <greg@itmack.com>
Just wondering, if you ever need to replace the canopy, how do you get it
off? Do you smash it and grinding the remnance off or is there some kind of
remover for the glue?
Greg
RV8
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown"
<bkbrown@ashcreekwireless.com>
>
> I used SikaFlex 295UV adhesive to attach my canopy to the frame, and then
used it again to attach the side and aft skirts to the canopy. I thought I
might have to lay up glass aft canopy skirts, but was finally able to
achieve a near perfect fit except for the lower corners, where I had about a
1/4" gap. Some other builders looked at it and assured me I could just put
a soft bend there by hand once the skirts were attached with the adhesive
With some degree of trepidation...that's what it did and it worked out
great. I was worried I'd put a "kink" in the metal that would be visible,
but there are no bend lines visible under the bright lights...it worked out
fine. One of my other neighbors, (a sheet metal guru) assured me a shrinker
would work also, but I'm very happy with the fit I have now. Personally, I
think one of the big variables in how you're able to fit the aft canopy
skirts revolves around how much "tail" of the canopy you leave hanging off
the back of the fra!
> me. The angle that the canopy skirt meets the canopy dictates much of
the fit where the aft skirt meets the turtle deck and the sides of the fuse.
This is where using the adhesive gives you the advantage...you need a
minimum thickness of adhesive for a good bond. Tipping the aft canopy
slightly onto the skin allows that space to occur, and also gives the good
fit you're looking for.
>
> Bob Brown
> RV7A - wiring Trutrak ADI - waiting on engine.
>
>
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
I think you will need to do a little better than that...
Charlie
Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be
uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and
with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject
of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the
Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin
of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited
Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings
and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and
Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning
Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be
for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union,
suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for
governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United
States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers,
and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline
prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District
(not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and
the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United
States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent
of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of
Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into
Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this
Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or
Officer thereof.
David Fenstermacher wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
>
>Article I, Section 8.
>
>That would be the Constitution.......
>
>Dave
>
>Absolutely do not archive
>
>
>
>
>>[Original Message]
>>From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Date: 6/5/2005 11:21:08 PM
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon AOA
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>>
>>David Fenstermacher wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher"
>>>
>>>
><dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
>
>
>>>That is absolutely not true.
>>>It doesn't matter if you sell it or not.
>>>You cannot make, use, or sell..... for financial gain or not.
>>>ALthough, as has been pointed out, you probably won't get sued... but you
>>>could.
>>>
>>>Trust me on this - I do patents for a living.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Oh, I trust you. But surely you won't mind if I verify by asking you to
>>quote chapter & verse from US code.
>>
>>Charlie
>>(I've got this great idea. Can you do me a patent?)
>>
Message 20
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--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
better, but I'm still not convinced.
Charlie
Dan Brown wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Dan Brown <dan@familybrown.org>
>
>Quoting Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>:
>
>
>
>>Oh, I trust you. But surely you won't mind if I verify by asking you to
>>quote chapter & verse from US code.
>>
>>
>
> I'm not David, but I think this would be relevant, from 35 USC sec. 271:
>
> 271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in this
>title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
>*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
>United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
>during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
>
>(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know all
>the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but the
>general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
>
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Filter Bypass Door |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Reynolds <rvreynolds@macs.net>
I just finished my annual on my RV-6A (N841RV) after 160 hours.
When I removed the VA-131-A Air Box to service the air filter, I
noticed the VA-191A Magnet Retainer was gone. The AN426AD3.5 flush
rivets had pulled through the thin fiberglass shell of the Air Box.
Fortunately, the VA-191M Magnet had fallen down and attached itself
to one of the nut plates of the nose wheel fairing cover. The Magnet
Retainer was no where to be found. I inspected the throat of the
carburetor to make sure it was not lodged in the throat.
I fabricated a new Magnet Retainer with the body running
longitudinally , the Magnet on the aft end and two 1/8 pop rivets
with backing washers forward of the VA-191B Filter Bypass Door.
I had noticed on engine run ups in the last few hours before the
annual with carburetor heat pulled, the RPMS did not drop as much and
the carburetor temperature did not rise as much. I thought it was
just the warmer weather.
I plan to send report this to Vans Aircraft.
Richard Reynolds
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Ahhhh.... something that passes the smell test.
Thanks,
Charlie
Scott wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Scott <batfinks@mchsi.com>
>
>I missed the first part of this discussion, so I may be way off base
>here on the premise, but...
>
>I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, but I do hold a few
>patents (although they are assigned to a corporation). I have also had
>several discussions with patent weasels...er lawyers.
>
>A couple of points here:
>1) I know, but could not point out the song and verse where it is
>spelled out, that you can build and use anyting for your own consumption
>and not run afoul of patent laws. Now if you build a hundred of them
>and give them to your freinds, the patent holder may have a case against
>you if he decides to sue you.
>
>2) The Government does not enforce patent law. The patent holder must
>bring a civil suit to assert his patent against each person/entity who
>is infringing it.
>
>3) A patent is worthless unless the patent holder spends the bucks to
>sue someone who is infringing the patent. Unless you have ticked off
>the patent holder personally, even if you do violate the patent on a
>small-scale, it probably wouldn't be worth the holder's time and money
>to pursue a suit against you.
>
>4) HOWEVER, you may not infringe a patent for gain, NOR encourage
>other's to do so. Publishing a web page on how to violate someone's
>patent would probably get you a stongly worded letter from the patent
>holder's lawyer with the threat of a lawsuit. Whether he would pursue
>the lawsuit or would prevail if he did is another matter.
>
>Scott
>
>Chris W wrote:
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
>>
>>Dan Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in this
>>>title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
>>>*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
>>>United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
>>>during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
>>>
>>>(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know all
>>>the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but the
>>>general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I don't find it all that cut and dry. It seems worded clearly enough,
>>and would seem to indicate that if you make a "patented invention", that
>>"infringes the patent". However it also says that if you use a
>>"patented invention", that also "infringes the patent", I don't know
>>about you, but everyday I use several things that are patented, dose
>>that mean I am infringement of those patents? Now if it said "makes and
>>uses", I would be with you, but it said "makes, uses". I'm going to
>>read more before I am going to be convinced of exactly what that means.
>>
>>Also what you quote comes from the US Patent Act, I don't know much
>>about this legal stuff, but I thought that all federal laws on this, or
>>anything, have to be in the applicable CFR (Code of Federal
>>Regulations), in this case CFR Title 37. Like I said I don't know much
>>about it just curious
>>
>>do not archive
>>
Message 23
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|
(not processed: message from valid local sender)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Johnson" <matt@n559rv.com>
That is correct, this is thread should be titled AFS not Dynon, AFS is the one
with the patent.
-----Original Message-----
From: meljordan@earthlink.net
Subject: RV-List: Re: Dynon AOA (not processed: message from valid local sender)
> --> RV-List message posted by: meljordan@earthlink.net
>
> Before this goes too far, Dynon is not making any patent claimes on AOA
> or differential pressure technologies. This is just a thread gone
> wild. Dynon only offers AOA as an option for the EFIS systems and
> does not claim to own this technique or any patent. Dynon does not
> care if you build your own AOA or if you sell your AOA. I am sure that
> Dynon would not want you to copy their software, which I believe
> probably is covered by a copyright, but as far as the concept of
> differential pressure AOA, that is not something that Dynon claims in
> any way.
>
> Thanks,
> Mel Jordan,
> Tucson - RV-6A
>
>
> Subject: Re: Dynon AOA (not processed: message from valid local
> From: Wayne Glasser (ku-tec@bigpond.net.au)
> Date: Sun Jun 05 - 10:01 PM
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Wayne Glasser" <ku-tec@bigpond.net.au>
>
> Matt
>
> Do you have a patent number for Dynon. I would like to clarify their
> claims
>
> Thanks
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | AFS Patent (was Dynon AOA) |
(not processed: message from valid local sender)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Matt Johnson" <matt@n559rv.com>
Just so you know, the Patent that started this whole thing is #6,271,769 which
is held by AFS.
The full information on their claims is here: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?
Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=/netahtml/search-
bool.html&r=3&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=ptxt&s1=6,271,769&OS=6,271,769&RS=6,271,769
P.S. This thread was incorrectly referencing Dynon when it should be directed towards
AFS.
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England
> <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> Ahhhh.... something that passes the smell test.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
> Scott wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: Scott <batfinks@mchsi.com>
> >
> >I missed the first part of this discussion, so I may be way off base
> >here on the premise, but...
> >
> >I am not a lawyer, nor have I played one on TV, but I do hold a few
> >patents (although they are assigned to a corporation). I have also
> had
> >several discussions with patent weasels...er lawyers.
> >
> >A couple of points here:
> >1) I know, but could not point out the song and verse where it is
> >spelled out, that you can build and use anyting for your own
> consumption
> >and not run afoul of patent laws. Now if you build a hundred of them
> >and give them to your freinds, the patent holder may have a case
> against
> >you if he decides to sue you.
> >
> >2) The Government does not enforce patent law. The patent holder must
> >bring a civil suit to assert his patent against each person/entity who
> >is infringing it.
> >
> >3) A patent is worthless unless the patent holder spends the bucks to
> >sue someone who is infringing the patent. Unless you have ticked off
> >the patent holder personally, even if you do violate the patent on a
> >small-scale, it probably wouldn't be worth the holder's time and money
> >to pursue a suit against you.
> >
> >4) HOWEVER, you may not infringe a patent for gain, NOR encourage
> >other's to do so. Publishing a web page on how to violate someone's
> >patent would probably get you a stongly worded letter from the patent
> >holder's lawyer with the threat of a lawsuit. Whether he would pursue
> >the lawsuit or would prevail if he did is another matter.
> >
> >Scott
> >
> >Chris W wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W
> <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
> >>
> >>Dan Brown wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>271. Infringement of patent (a) Except as otherwise provided in
> this
> >>>title [35 USCS 1 et seq.], whoever without authority *makes*,
> >>>*uses*, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention, within the
> >>>United States or imports into the United States any patented
> invention
> >>>during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
> >>>
> >>>(emphasis added). Now, not being a patent attorney, I don't know
> all
> >>>the parameters of "except as otherwise provided in this title", but
> the
> >>>general prohibition is clear and unambiguous.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I don't find it all that cut and dry. It seems worded clearly
> enough,
> >>and would seem to indicate that if you make a "patented invention",
> that
> >>"infringes the patent". However it also says that if you use a
> >>"patented invention", that also "infringes the patent", I don't know
> >>about you, but everyday I use several things that are patented, dose
> >>that mean I am infringement of those patents? Now if it said "makes
> and
> >>uses", I would be with you, but it said "makes, uses". I'm going to
> >>read more before I am going to be convinced of exactly what that
> means.
> >>
> >>Also what you quote comes from the US Patent Act, I don't know much
> >>about this legal stuff, but I thought that all federal laws on this,
> or
> >>anything, have to be in the applicable CFR (Code of Federal
> >>Regulations), in this case CFR Title 37. Like I said I don't know
> much
> >>about it just curious
> >>
> >>do not archive
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: tools and canopy cover for sale |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill and Tami Britton" <william@gbta.net>
Paul, do you have a list of the tools???
Bill
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Lein" <pj115@journey.com>
Subject: RV-List: tools and canopy cover for sale
> --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Lein <pj115@journey.com>
>
> I've sold my 6a and have the tools I used to build it and an Orndorf
> silver canopy cover for sale. I am in central MI and will sell cheap
> to whoever comes to pick up this stuff. Everything 40% of new price.
> Show me today's price and we'll know what you will pay.
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 26
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker" <retasker@optonline.net>
While I do agree with your main statement, my statement is also true.
The patent does not prevent me from making anything - it only gives the
patent holder the right to sue me in civil court for doing so.
Practically speaking, a patent holder is very unlikely to sue an
individual for building a single copy of what is patented.
Nonetheless, you are absolutely correct that, legally, if you chose to
build a patented item, the patent holder has the right to sue you (and
will win).
Dick
David Fenstermacher wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
>
>That is absolutely not true.
>It doesn't matter if you sell it or not.
>You cannot make, use, or sell..... for financial gain or not.
>ALthough, as has been pointed out, you probably won't get sued... but you
>could.
>
>Trust me on this - I do patents for a living.
>
>Dave
>
>
>do not archive
>
>
>
>>[Original Message]
>>From: Richard E. Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com.Gecko/20040803>
>>Date: 6/5/2005 9:53:11 PM
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Dynon AOA
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard E. Tasker"
>>
>>
><retasker@optonline.net>
>
>
>>I am not a lawyer, but I do know that a patent does not prevent you in
>>any way from making something either exactly like what the patent does
>>or something that uses or adapts the patented idea as long as it is for
>>your own use or is not sold for profit. All the patent does is prevent
>>you from legally building and selling the patented device or idea. That
>>is, you cannot make money from someone else's patent.
>>
>>So, build whatever you want for yourself and don't worry about any
>>
>>
>patents.
>
>
>>Dick Tasker
>>
>>Hal Kempthorne wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Hal Kempthorne
>>>
>>>
><hal_kempthorne@sbcglobal.net>
>
>
>>>I am all but certain that you are right. Put in in a black box and no
>>>
>>>
>one will know.
>
>
>>>Is there a lawyer in the house?
>>>
>>>hal
>>>
>>>Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net> wrote:
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W
>>>
>>>
><1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net>
>
>
>>>RobHickman@aol.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>. . .it would also violate the
>>>>Patents on the AFS AOA System.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Patents don't prevent me from building a patented design and using it
>>>for myself, it just prevents me from building it and selling it. I
>>>could be wrong about that, but I don't think so.
>>>
>>>do not archive
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>----
>>Please Note:
>>No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede,
>>
>>
>however,
>
>
>>that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily
>>
>>
>inconvenienced.
>
>
>>----
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
----
Please Note:
No trees were destroyed in the sending of this message. We do concede, however,
that a significant number of electrons may have been temporarily inconvenienced.
----
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA |
--> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" <dfenstermacher@earthlink.net>
Listers;
I think this has gone on long enough, BUT (isn't there alwasys one of
those?)
I wanted to make sure everyone understands that there is no "personal use"
exemption in the patent laws.
And Charlie, I want to apologize for my offhand cite to the constitution.
Let's see what the statute says --
35 U.S.C. 271. Infringement of patent
(a) Except as otherwise provided in this title, whoever without
authority makes, uses, offers to sell, or sells any patented invention,
within
the United States or imports into the United States any patented invention
during the term of the patent therefor, infringes the patent.
(b) Whoever actively induces infringement of a patent shall be liable
as an infringer.
(c) Whoever offers to sell, or sells within the United States or
imports into the United States a component of a patented machine,
manufacture,
combination or composition, or a material or apparatus for use in
practicing a
patented process, constituting a material part of the invention, knowing the
same to be especially made or especially adapted for use in an infringement
of
such patent, and not a staple article or commodity of commerce suitable for
substantial noninfringing use, shall be liable as a contributory infringer.
Infringement for "offers to sell" and "imports" was added, effective January
1, 1996, by the GATT implementation act.
The original United States patent statute, the Patent Act of 1790 passed by
the first Congress, provided similar rights to the patentee -- "the sole and
exclusive right and liberty of making, constructing, using and vending to
others to be used, the said invention or discovery".
So, clearly an individual making or using a patented invention is an
infringer
of the patent, except as limited by the narrow "experimental use" exception
"for the sole purpose of gratifying a philosophical taste, or curiosity, or
for mere amusement". See _Roche Products v. Bolar Pharmaceutical_, 733 F2d
858, 221 USPQ 937 (Fed. Cir. 1984). This does not mean it's OK to put on
an
experimental airplane, by the way. Basically what the court said was it's
OK to
make it to verify that the patent works so you can make it better (which is
the
primary exchange between the inventor and the government and the purpose
of the patent system). Uncle Sam will give you a monopoly in exchange for
putting your idea out there so others can make it better.
That said, there are a number of reasons why a patentee may not enforce
his or her rights against an infringer:
1. Patent litigation places the patent at risk. A common defense is that
the patent is invalid because of undiscovered prior art or "fraud on the
patent office".
2. Damages are limited, generally based on reasonable royalties. For an
individual infringer, it may be impossible to prove meaningful damages.
In contrast, the copyright laws provide for statutory damages without the
need to prove actual damage.
3. Attorney fees are available only in "exceptional cases".
While it would be an infringement if an individual made or used the
patented invention, it would be impractical to sue that individual for
infringement.
But it may be that the patentee is looking for somebody to make an example
of, regardless of the cost of litigation ...
So let's all be careful out there, and can we let this thread die now?
Dave
do not archive
> [Original Message]
> From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 6/6/2005 9:26:30 PM
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Patent laws, was Dynon AOA
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
>
> Ahhhh.... something that passes the smell test.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
>
>
> >
> >A couple of points here:
> >1) I know, but could not point out the song and verse where it is
> >spelled out, that you can build and use anyting for your own consumption
> >and not run afoul of patent laws. Now if you build a hundred of them
> >and give them to your freinds, the patent holder may have a case against
> >you if he decides to sue you.
> >
Message 28
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--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 6/6/2005 7:48:55 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
dan@familybrown.org writes:
"Since all the world is but a story, it were well for thee to buy the
more enduring story rather than the story that is less enduring."
-- The Judgment of St. Colum Cille
==================================
Ahh, but still just another story nevertheless, enduring though it may be.
Would that the truth could be so enduring.
Do not archive
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 752hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: The engine breather |
--> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com
In a message dated 6/6/05 9:13:15 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
RCROSLEY@HRTEXTRON.TEXTRON.COM writes:
> run it into a bottle or other container
>
> Yes. Works for me.
>
> Harry Crosby
> RV-6 N16CX, 88 hours
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: RV 7 Slider rear skirts |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> Just wondering, if you ever need to replace the canopy, how do you get it
> off? Do you smash it and grinding the remnance off or is there some kind of
> remover for the glue?
>
>
>>I used SikaFlex 295UV adhesive to attach my canopy to the frame, and then
>
I've read that the technique is to push a piece of thin safety
wire between the canopy and frame, and pull it along, cutting
the glue. Probably not too easy. I guess some box cutters,
chain maille gloves, and a lot of time would also work.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 Wiring
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