---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 06/18/05: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:36 AM - AOA Indicator (EMAproducts@aol.com) 2. 09:14 AM - Subject: Icom comparison (Randy Russell) 3. 11:47 AM - [ Dave Rossiter ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 4. 11:52 AM - [ Henry Hore ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares) 5. 12:03 PM - Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? () 6. 04:46 PM - Re: Subject: Icom comparison (John Danielson) 7. 07:19 PM - Re: Subject: Icom comparison (Hedrick) 8. 08:53 PM - Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion (David Fenstermacher) 9. 09:07 PM - Re: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion (DonVS) 10. 09:53 PM - Re: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? (Paul Besing) 11. 09:58 PM - Re: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion (Paul Trotter) 12. 10:05 PM - Kitlog Website Confusion (Paul Besing) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:23 AM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: RV-List: AOA Indicator --> RV-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com Just as there are RV's, Glasairs, Lancairs and other makes of aircraft, there is more than one manufacturer of AOA systems. Go to www.riteangle.com for information on the fully versatile system, On all production Fire Boss Borate bombers. We've been in business making AOA's since '95. Come by and visit at Arlington & AirVenture, see how it works, discuss how to save a couple hundred $! A fully operational system which corrects for up to 6 flap positions. We are across from Van's display @ Arlington displaying with Evergreen Aircraft Services. I'm giving several Forums @ Arlington, one @ AirVenture. Elbie Mendenhall, EM Aviation, LLC I have yet to find someone who planned on an accident! paulfolbrecht@yahoo.com wrote: I'm wondering if an AOA indicator is something I'm really going to want or not. My thoughts are that $800 is a bit of a large chunk of change for this functionality. I have not ever felt a problem flying by ASI and feel - never relied on a spam-can stall-horn to keep me out of trouble anyway. Do any of you know of any RV pilot who planned on having an accident?? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:14:27 AM PST US From: "Randy Russell" Subject: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Russell" A23 is excellent as a backup NAV/Com. Used it for both on a least 2 occasions. Randy ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:47:13 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Dave Rossiter ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Dave Rossiter Lists: Rocket-List,RV-List,RV4-List,RV8-List Subject: Dave Rossiter's F1 Rocket http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/daverossiter717@hotmail.com.06.18.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 11:52:44 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: [ Henry Hore ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! From: Email List Photo Shares --> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares A new Email List Photo Share is available: Poster: Henry Hore Lists: RV-List,RV6-List,RV7-List,RV8-List,RV9-List Subject: Leveling RV6-A Fuselage http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/elsa-henry@darlor-watch.com.06.18.2005/index.html o Main Photo Share Index http://www.matronics.com/photoshare o Submitting a Photo Share If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the following information along with your email message and files: 1) Email List or Lists that they are related to: 2) Your Full Name: 3) Your Email Address: 4) One line Subject description: 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic: 6) One-line Description of each photo or file: Email the information above and your files and photos to: pictures@matronics.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 12:03:15 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? --> RV-List message posted by: Paul: I re-read your original post after your second post that SEZ is closed at night and I am starting to think we are talking about two different airports? KSEZ: Sedona has runway 3 and 21. Not sure where you got: "....should land on RWY 30 and Takeoff RWY 12" ? Also it is LEFT traffic for both runway 3 and 21. Are we talking about the same airport KSEZ, Sedona AZ? KSEZ as I said is open 24 hours. As far as your comment: "Everyone always comes in high and hot, and ends up slamming on the runway. I've seen many broken wheel pants there." Trusting altimeter for landing and broken wheel pants? I am not sure what you are talking about, I don't look at my altimeter when landing or do any pilot I know. Like ANY landing look at the runway and my aim point. I do the same in my RV or B767. Here is the deal, both runways at Sedona are served by a VASI (two lights to the left of the runway touchdown zone). As long as you have white over red you will be fine. Fly normal approach speeds and follow the VASI, which provides a 3.0 deg final approach at SEZ. There should be no over riding visual illusion to make you fly high. In fact with the 75' width runway and airport higher than surrounding surface you would tend to fly lower and flat. Again VASI and standard pattern at standard speeds = NO BIG DEAL. Wheel pants? Not sure why wheel pants are breaking. "In the AFD it doesn't say it, but you should land on RWY 30 and Takeoff on RWY 12." Paul as far as landing, land on the runway that is favored by the wind. If there were no wind why would you want to land on 30 (guess you mean 3) and take off on runway 12 (guess you mean 21). You will have traffic conflict. This is not a one-way airport. However I would agree takeoff on 21 is best because the terrain is slightly higher to the north. I have landed on 3 and departed on 21 only because I was coming and going to the south and no one else was in the pattern and the winds where calm. The only instrument approach procedure (IAP) to SEZ is to runway 3, and the only standard instrument departure procedure (SID) is off of runway 21. However we are not talking about clear blue VFR, IFR procedures do not matter. The terrain is not enough to justify making this a one-way airport. Use the runway that the wind favors (usually rwy 21) OR other traffic is using OR call UNICOM/CTAF (123.0) for recommended RWY. If all the above are nutural land in the direction that makes it easy for you. Of course listen and make calls in the blind, this is universal and per the AIM. If you are rusty on un-controlled airport Ops read the AIM. Paul I got to admit you really have me confused with "I like to do soft field type landings there because of the winds." Paul, what are you talking about? No offense but that does not make sense at all. In windy conditions you should fly the aircraft onto the runway under control positive. Soft field landings are at or near min speed (stall) at high angle of attack. The only thing to do in windy conditions with gusts, is add some extra speed. The extra speed is bleed off on short short final. I would not recommend a full stall landing in gusty conditions. WIND: Look KSEZ prevailing winds (if there is any) are usually from the south around 10 mph and are caused by frontal activity, thermal conditions and terrain. I have been in there several times and at different times of the year and day and never found wind a major issue, but if it is windy there is a chance of: "turbulence experienced in the vicinity of the airport." There is no unique characteristic of the Sedona area that makes it subject to high winds more than any other part of Arizona except the terrain, which can shelter as well. Expect the after noon heat will create thermal bump activity, but it's no big deal. Just check the weather, current, forecast, AIMETS, SIGMETS. I would also look at winds aloft at 9000/12,000 feet. If the wind is blowing more than 20-30 kts @ 9,000 feet, it can be bouncy. I don't recommend any special "technique" for Sedona; it is just an airport on a 500' MESA, plenty wide and long (about 5000' x 75). IT IS JUST AN AIRPORT. Yes it has terrain that is about 3,000' higher with in 25nm. Yes it sits on a 500' mesa. So what. If it's windy there CAN be turbulence. NO big deal. It is a fun airport with a long wide runway. The town is too far to walk to but close by with taxi. Check the weather for any 24 hour period over a week or so, you will get a feel of the weather, which is usually clear this time of year. As far as landing there is no special technique. Fly the way you always do. Airport is @ 4700' elev so pattern is 5700'. There is no big deal to landing at Sedona and it is open at night. If we are NOT talking about Sedona AZ than my apologize. Paul not sure what you are talking about but let me know when you are flying into KSEZ next time. I want to see you fly that RIGHT pattern to RUN 12 looking at the altimeter. : -) (Just Kidding). Cheers George ATP, CFI >From: Paul Besing >Subject: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? > >Trust your altimiter (altimeter?). Everyone always comes in high >and hot, and ends up slamming on the runway. I've >seen many broken wheel pants there. In the AFD it >doesn't say it, but you should land on RWY 30 and >Takeoff on RWY 12. LISTEN to everyone on the radio, >because many people fly in there and are not familiar, >and you will have people doing right traffic for 12 >and left traffic for 30. I like to do soft field type >landings there because of the winds. > >Paul Besing --------------------------------- Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:07 PM PST US From: "John Danielson" Subject: RE: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" Check to make sure they are both apples to apples comparison. Usually the cheaper one will leave out the headset/mic adapter. This can run $50 or more. Usually there is no difference in the radios. The more expensive ones usually have a VOR/CDI. John L. Danielson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Russell Subject: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Russell" A23 is excellent as a backup NAV/Com. Used it for both on a least 2 occasions. Randy ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:55 PM PST US From: "Hedrick" Subject: RE: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Hedrick" Two things I don't like about my icom are 1) NO METER to tell me how much battery strength is left. When it says low battery you have enough battery to say 'bye', not enough to say 'good bye'. and 2) no backlight (this is plus and minus for batt strength.) Keith Hedrick Carlinville IL ================== -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Danielson Subject: RE: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" Check to make sure they are both apples to apples comparison. Usually the cheaper one will leave out the headset/mic adapter. This can run $50 or more. Usually there is no difference in the radios. The more expensive ones usually have a VOR/CDI. John L. Danielson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Randy Russell Subject: Subject: RV-List: Icom comparison --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Russell" A23 is excellent as a backup NAV/Com. Used it for both on a least 2 occasions. Randy ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:53:32 PM PST US From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Read the archives on the plusses and minuses of alodine on the tank parts. Not trying to re-hash that. What I was thinking was - slosh alumiprep and alodine in the finished tanks for corrosion protection. Being that I am far too lazy to do the individual parts :) What do you all think - good/bad idea. Thanks, Dave David Fenstermacher dfenstermacher@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:17 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion --> RV-List message posted by: "DonVS" Alumaprep is an acid. Not sure how the proseal will stand up to this. Oh alodine is also acid based. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of David Fenstermacher Subject: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" Read the archives on the plusses and minuses of alodine on the tank parts. Not trying to re-hash that. What I was thinking was - slosh alumiprep and alodine in the finished tanks for corrosion protection. Being that I am far too lazy to do the individual parts :) What do you all think - good/bad idea. Thanks, Dave David Fenstermacher dfenstermacher@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:54 PM PST US From: "Paul Besing" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" Yes we are talking about the same airport. Sorry, I got the runway numbers incorrect. I didn't have the AFD in front of me when I wrote the email. Last time I was there, about a month ago, there was a sign that said the airport is closed after 7:00 PM if I remember correctly. Nevertheless, I would not consider going there at night. It might have been temporary, because I remember people talking about it on the ramp. As far as the altimiter is concerned, the reason why I said that is there is a great visual illusion when you land there. The ground below you is probably 500-1000' lower than the airport elevation. I bring students there often, and every stinking time, they are high and fast. They are scared about hitting the approach end that slopes down into the valley. Prevailing winds or not, I am just stating what most people who regularly fly in there do. The traffic patterns there are strange sometimes. The AFD *used to say* land on 3 and take off on 21. They took it out. You have many locals and others who frequent SEZ and they still do this. The problem is, newcomers just go off of the wind, and you'll have people landing opposite directions. Most of the time, a local will come on the radio and correct the person from landing on the *wrong* runway. I disagree with the comment about landing there where the winds are coming from, within reason, of course. The runway is sloped pretty steep. Land uphill, take off downhill kind of thing. You might fly an RV in there with no problems, but you get weekend warriors in a C-172 with 3 or god forbid 4 people in the summertime, and you need that downhill slope. Now, don't misread me on this, because if the wind is greater than about 5 knots or so, I would start evaluating the wind and now following the typical runway selection. Of course I would rather have a stiff headwind while taking off high DA, but if it is light, or a crosswind, I'm taking off on the downhill and landing on the uphill. I know you have been in there, but I'm not sure how many times. I frequent Sedona with my students, and I am just stating what I have seen there over the years. Just last time I was there I saw someone pancake a C172 on the runway and tear up a wheel pant. It is a very common mistake. I've seen it from private, instrument, and commercial students. As far as soft field landings, I think I didn't elaborate enough. My point is to land with POWER, i.e positive control. I teach soft field landings to be "greaser" type landings, slightly faster than the full stall landings, rather than high angle of attack, slow airspeed. The reason is that people try to landing high angle of attack, then they are on the area of reverse command. They try to squeak in a little power to soften the landing, and if it is too much power, they are a prime candidate for a departure stall. Paul Besing RV-6A Sold Kitlog Builder's Software www.kitlog.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? --> RV-List message posted by: Paul: I re-read your original post after your second post that SEZ is closed at night and I am starting to think we are talking about two different airports? KSEZ: Sedona has runway 3 and 21. Not sure where you got: "....should land on RWY 30 and Takeoff RWY 12" ? Also it is LEFT traffic for both runway 3 and 21. Are we talking about the same airport KSEZ, Sedona AZ? KSEZ as I said is open 24 hours. As far as your comment: "Everyone always comes in high and hot, and ends up slamming on the runway. I've seen many broken wheel pants there." Trusting altimeter for landing and broken wheel pants? I am not sure what you are talking about, I don't look at my altimeter when landing or do any pilot I know. Like ANY landing look at the runway and my aim point. I do the same in my RV or B767. Here is the deal, both runways at Sedona are served by a VASI (two lights to the left of the runway touchdown zone). As long as you have white over red you will be fine. Fly normal approach speeds and follow the VASI, which provides a 3.0 deg final approach at SEZ. There should be no over riding visual illusion to make you fly high. In fact with the 75' width runway and airport higher than surrounding surface you would tend to fly lower and flat. Again VASI and standard pattern at standard speeds = NO BIG DEAL. Wheel pants? Not sure why wheel pants are breaking. "In the AFD it doesn't say it, but you should land on RWY 30 and Takeoff on RWY 12." Paul as far as landing, land on the runway that is favored by the wind. If there were no wind why would you want to land on 30 (guess you mean 3) and take off on runway 12 (guess you mean 21). You will have traffic conflict. This is not a one-way airport. However I would agree takeoff on 21 is best because the terrain is slightly higher to the north. I have landed on 3 and departed on 21 only because I was coming and going to the south and no one else was in the pattern and the winds where calm. The only instrument approach procedure (IAP) to SEZ is to runway 3, and the only standard instrument departure procedure (SID) is off of runway 21. However we are not talking about clear blue VFR, IFR procedures do not matter. The terrain is not enough to justify making this a one-way airport. Use the runway that the wind favors (usually rwy 21) OR other traffic is using OR call UNICOM/CTAF (123.0) for recommended RWY. If all the above are nutural land in the direction that makes it easy for you. Of course listen and make calls in the blind, this is universal and per the AIM. If you are rusty on un-controlled airport Ops read the AIM. Paul I got to admit you really have me confused with "I like to do soft field type landings there because of the winds." Paul, what are you talking about? No offense but that does not make sense at all. In windy conditions you should fly the aircraft onto the runway under control positive. Soft field landings are at or near min speed (stall) at high angle of attack. The only thing to do in windy conditions with gusts, is add some extra speed. The extra speed is bleed off on short short final. I would not recommend a full stall landing in gusty conditions. WIND: Look KSEZ prevailing winds (if there is any) are usually from the south around 10 mph and are caused by frontal activity, thermal conditions and terrain. I have been in there several times and at different times of the year and day and never found wind a major issue, but if it is windy there is a chance of: "turbulence experienced in the vicinity of the airport." There is no unique characteristic of the Sedona area that makes it subject to high winds more than any other part of Arizona except the terrain, which can shelter as well. Expect the after noon heat will create thermal bump activity, but it's no big deal. Just check the weather, current, forecast, AIMETS, SIGMETS. I would also look at winds aloft at 9000/12,000 feet. If the wind is blowing more than 20-30 kts @ 9,000 feet, it can be bouncy. I don't recommend any special "technique" for Sedona; it is just an airport on a 500' MESA, plenty wide and long (about 5000' x 75). IT IS JUST AN AIRPORT. Yes it has terrain that is about 3,000' higher with in 25nm. Yes it sits on a 500' mesa. So what. If it's windy there CAN be turbulence. NO big deal. It is a fun airport with a long wide runway. The town is too far to walk to but close by with taxi. Check the weather for any 24 hour period over a week or so, you will get a feel of the weather, which is usually clear this time of year. As far as landing there is no special technique. Fly the way you always do. Airport is @ 4700' elev so pattern is 5700'. There is no big deal to landing at Sedona and it is open at night. If we are NOT talking about Sedona AZ than my apologize. Paul not sure what you are talking about but let me know when you are flying into KSEZ next time. I want to see you fly that RIGHT pattern to RUN 12 looking at the altimeter. : -) (Just Kidding). Cheers George ATP, CFI >From: Paul Besing >Subject: Re: Who Frequents Sedona, AZ? > >Trust your altimiter (altimeter?). Everyone always comes in high >and hot, and ends up slamming on the runway. I've >seen many broken wheel pants there. In the AFD it >doesn't say it, but you should land on RWY 30 and >Takeoff on RWY 12. LISTEN to everyone on the radio, >because many people fly in there and are not familiar, >and you will have people doing right traffic for 12 >and left traffic for 30. I like to do soft field type >landings there because of the winds. > >Paul Besing --------------------------------- Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:35 PM PST US From: Paul Trotter Subject: Re: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Trotter I think that alodining tank parts is a good idea, it gives you some additional corrosion protection, especially considering that your tanks will probably sit for some time before they get filled with fuel. However, I would do the individual parts as I think it will be difficult to get a good result sloshing the tank after it is completed. Particularly, I think rinsing the alodine out will be difficult, as you don't want to let alodine sit on the metal too long. Alodining will also improve the adhesion of ProSeal, since ProSeal adheres better to alodined metal than to bare metal. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Fenstermacher" Subject: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion > --> RV-List message posted by: "David Fenstermacher" > > Read the archives on the plusses and minuses of alodine on the tank parts. > Not trying to re-hash that. > What I was thinking was - slosh alumiprep and alodine in the finished tanks for corrosion protection. > Being that I am far too lazy to do the individual parts :) > > > What do you all think - good/bad idea. > > Thanks, > > Dave > > > David Fenstermacher > dfenstermacher@earthlink.net > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:18 PM PST US From: "Paul Besing" Subject: RV-List: Kitlog Website Confusion --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Besing" Listers: It has come to my attention that there is another builder log website out there that is using our name. If you are trying to reach our website, understand it is www.kitlog.com. Any other domain that contains the word kitlog or variations of, is not our website. Paul Besing President Aeroware Enterprises, LLC paul@kitlog.com www.kitlog.com 480.361.9011 Office 480.236.2786 Cell do not archive