---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 06/20/05: 11 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:32 AM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (linn walters) 2. 05:54 AM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (JOHN STARN) 3. 06:30 AM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (Tim Coldenhoff) 4. 09:19 AM - DAR (Kevin Shannon) 5. 02:38 PM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (Brad Oliver) 6. 05:31 PM - Re: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion (Bill Dube) 7. 07:05 PM - Governor bracket (Ted D. Hultzapple) 8. 07:28 PM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (Brett Morawski) 9. 07:52 PM - Re: Governor bracket (John Furey) 10. 08:38 PM - Re: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. (glaesers) 11. 10:15 PM - Re: Governor bracket (Terry Watson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:24 AM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Brad Oliver wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Brad Oliver" > >Since starting my empennage about a few weeks ago, I set out today to do my >first batch of priming. Unfortunately the results were less than stellar... > >I am using the AFS Water-based 1-Part Primer/Sealer, sprayed by a Harbor >Freight HVLP Detail Gun. My process was a simple one used by several other >builders... wipe down parts with lacquer thinner, wash with dawn, clean/etch >with AFS etcher/cleaner, wash parts with clean water, dry, then spray the >primer. What I ended up with was a combination of orange peel, fish eyes, >and splattered primer. Caused by... I don't know... me, my process, my >equipment, or a combination??? > >My understanding is that the fish eyes are caused by surface contamination. >I scrubbed the parts with a soapy scotchbrite, rinsed them, then cleaned >with AFS Cleaner/Etch, rinsed again, dried them using air, and sprayed the >primer only minutes after etching. I am baffled because I never touched the >parts with my bare hands and the rinse water always sheeted... the parts >*appeared* to be clean, obviously they were not. Any suggestions on how to >avoid the fish eyes or improve my process? Would wiping the parts with a >tack rag prior to spraying the primer be advisable? Could the fish eyes >have been caused my contaminants in the air supply or spray gun? > Bingo! That was my first thought! I was amazed at how much 'junk' came along with my 'clean' air! I added a 'toilet paper' filter to my system, at the end of my feed hose to my paint booth. I use a small, light hose from the filter to the gun. >What I am less clear on is the orange peel and splattered primer (almost >like texture). I sprayed outside on a sunny day with temps in the high 70s >(maybe a little higher). Could the outside temp or the temp of the parts >have anything to do with the orange peel or splattered primer? > Maybe. My experience with paint in general, but not the AFS stuff, is that splatter is due to too low air pressure or too thick paint. I also have my pressure regulator at the end of my feed hose next to the TP filter. Regulators leak sometimes, and the hose makes a neat reservoir for the excess pressure. If you have a long hose, then it may take a second or two for the pressure to get down to the regulated point .... after you've already started laying paint down. If you squeeze the gun a little and bleed the air pressure down before squeezing to get the paint, you'll get rid of that problem. It's just harder to get it right. >Any idea what is going wrong and what I can do to resolve these issues? > See above. >On a side note, I am not impressed with the Harbor Freight HVLP gun... it >seems to either spray little to no primer or too much primer, but never in >between. The primer getting lower in the cup seems to create a vacuum above >the primer which prevents primer from feeding into the gun, then upon >releasing the vacuum by opening the lid on the cup the gun sprays >excessively until it eventually builds up a vacuum again and stops >altogether. > Hmmm. This could be another problem. Spray guns either have vented cans or pressurized cans. I have a couple of HF guns .... they're cheap and I'm not as good a painter to get the value out of an expensive one. I do have a $300 professional gun but I get the same results with the cheap guns. Anyway, the HVLP guns will either have a hole in the lid to prevent the vacuum, or a hose going from the lid to the top of the gun. Most have the hose. At the top of the gun is a valve. Loosening the valve will allow pressure to flow to the can giving the paint a boost up to the nozzle. Regulate that pressure for coarse adjustments in paint flow. Fine adjustments at the nozzle. >Thanks, >Brad Oliver >RV-7 Livermore, CA > >PS - Those self-etching rattle can primers are sounding better every minute. >;-) > Oh yeah! Expensive though!!! Think of the primer as a training aid .... by the time you're ready to shoot paint on the outside, you'll be an excellent painter!!!! Practice, Practice, Practice!!! Another hint: Because you will use many small batches of paint (speaking of 2-part stuff here), offload that gallon of paint into glass mayonaise jars after you've mixed the paint thoroughly. Label the jars with the paint number, the Mfgr., the name of the second part, and the mixing ratio. You may be using a couple of paint Mfgr's and they need to be kept separate. The jars allow you to pour paint into your measuring cup easier and you don't waste paint. Linn ..... sanded a lot of paint!!!! do not archive > > > > -- ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:48 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" We have a problem with the water at APV. When painting of any type we wash with the stuff from the end of the hose BUT give a "final" rinse with bottled water. Water from the tap at APV will cause "fisheyes" in just about anything we prime and/or paint. Your circumstances may vary but a coupla bucks for the "final" rinse may save you some time & work. KABONG HRII N561FS Do No Archive (GBA & GWB) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark A. Sedlacek" Subject: RE: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. >> Hi Brad, I've been using the AFS primer for some time now and have had >> pretty good luck with it. It appears your prep is sound. I'd look to >> oil and or water in your compressed air line as the source of your "fish >> eyes" and the aluminum was hot from spraying outside in the sun as the >> source of the orange peel. > a few weeks ago, I set out today to do my > first batch of priming. Unfortunately the results were less than > stellar... > > > My understanding is that the fish eyes are caused by surface > contamination. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:30:58 AM PST US From: Tim Coldenhoff Subject: Re: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Coldenhoff Brad Oliver wrote: > What I am less clear on is the orange peel and splattered primer (almost > like texture). I sprayed outside on a sunny day with temps in the high 70s > (maybe a little higher). Could the outside temp or the temp of the parts > have anything to do with the orange peel or splattered primer? > > Any idea what is going wrong and what I can do to resolve these issues? I have painted my plane with AFS and have gotten less than stellar results because of the spray environment (too hot and dry in Arizona) and my ability as a painter. What I did learn is that your temps need to be below 80, and keep the humidity as high as you can. Try spraying water on the ground around the parts to help. If it warms up any more, coil up your air hose and put it in a cold water bath. Temperature at the tip of the gun makes a big difference also. For the fish eye, check your hoses and make sure there is no oil or water in the lines. Use clean hoses and a water trap/filter. It sounds in your case like the gun setup is off. The AFS paints require that you be able to spray a mist of paint. The technique is that you put on a mist coat, wait till it gets tacky, then spray another mist coat. Repeat until you get good coverage, which may mean four or more passes. You can't spray on volume or it will run & sag. I used a HD gravity feed gun with good results. It only costs about $40, and I used it to spray the whole plane. I would highly recommend fixing or changing the gun until you can consistently spray a nice mist from it. Use a box or some paper or something to practice spraying on; don't continue with real parts until you are ready. Trust me, sanding it all off back to bare metal is a lot of work... I know! - Tim Coldenhoff RV9A N194TC - Flying! http://rv9a.deru.com ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:19:28 AM PST US From: "Kevin Shannon" Subject: RV-List: DAR --> RV-List message posted by: "Kevin Shannon" Seattle area RVers, I highly recommend the DAR that just did my -8, he was very knowledgeable and helpful with getting through all the paperwork issues, charged what I thought was a very reasonable fee ($200) and even came out and did it on a Saturday. His contact info is Charlie Cotton 360-893-6719 Kevin Shannon ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:38 PM PST US From: Brad Oliver Subject: RE: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: Brad Oliver Thanks to everyone who responded with suggestions. Based on the feedback I received I am making the following changes to my set-up and/or process... >>> Bring it inside, or wait until evening The parts were probably too hot to be spraying primer. I also think the sunlight reflecting off the parts made it hard for me to tell how much primer I was spraying on them, and I think ended up spraying too much. >>> Thin primer a bit more I had thinned it, using distilled water, to 25 secs. I may try to go down to around 20 secs. IIRC the range for AFS is 20-25 secs. >>> Install a small filter at the END of the air hose My set-up has a 4' hose, a filter/regulator, a 25' hose, a desiccant cartridge, then another regulator (on the gun). While my hope was that the desiccant cartridge would remove any errant water in the line, I am thinking a filter might be better (plus the desiccant). >>> Final rinse or wipe down parts with bottled/distilled water I will probably buy a few gallons of distilled water and use them along with a lint free cloth to give the parts a final wipe down before hanging them to dry. >>> Drip (hang) dry parts After the final rinse (wipe down), I will let the parts drip dry inside. >>> Gun pressure Experiment more. >>> HVLP Gun Poke a hole in the lid to allow the pressure to equalize in the cup. >>> Technique Spray a light fog coat first not worrying about getting it on the entire part. I can always hit the area I missed the next time around. Thanks! I will post my results here. ~Brad > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. > From: "Brad Oliver" > Date: Sun, June 19, 2005 10:34 pm > To: "Rv-List" > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Brad Oliver" > > Since starting my empennage about a few weeks ago, I set out today to do my > first batch of priming. Unfortunately the results were less than stellar... > > I am using the AFS Water-based 1-Part Primer/Sealer, sprayed by a Harbor > Freight HVLP Detail Gun. My process was a simple one used by several other > builders... wipe down parts with lacquer thinner, wash with dawn, clean/etch > with AFS etcher/cleaner, wash parts with clean water, dry, then spray the > primer. What I ended up with was a combination of orange peel, fish eyes, > and splattered primer. Caused by... I don't know... me, my process, my > equipment, or a combination??? > > My understanding is that the fish eyes are caused by surface contamination. > I scrubbed the parts with a soapy scotchbrite, rinsed them, then cleaned > with AFS Cleaner/Etch, rinsed again, dried them using air, and sprayed the > primer only minutes after etching. I am baffled because I never touched the > parts with my bare hands and the rinse water always sheeted... the parts > *appeared* to be clean, obviously they were not. Any suggestions on how to > avoid the fish eyes or improve my process? Would wiping the parts with a > tack rag prior to spraying the primer be advisable? Could the fish eyes > have been caused my contaminants in the air supply or spray gun? > > What I am less clear on is the orange peel and splattered primer (almost > like texture). I sprayed outside on a sunny day with temps in the high 70s > (maybe a little higher). Could the outside temp or the temp of the parts > have anything to do with the orange peel or splattered primer? > > Any idea what is going wrong and what I can do to resolve these issues? > > On a side note, I am not impressed with the Harbor Freight HVLP gun... it > seems to either spray little to no primer or too much primer, but never in > between. The primer getting lower in the cup seems to create a vacuum above > the primer which prevents primer from feeding into the gun, then upon > releasing the vacuum by opening the lid on the cup the gun sprays > excessively until it eventually builds up a vacuum again and stops > altogether. > > Thanks, > Brad Oliver > RV-7 Livermore, CA > > PS - Those self-etching rattle can primers are sounding better every minute. > ;-) > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:35 PM PST US From: Bill Dube Subject: Re: RV-List: Sloshing fuel tanks w/alodine after completion --> RV-List message posted by: Bill Dube I would think it wiser to Alodine the parts before assembly. 1) ProSeal would likely stick better. 2) No residue in seams, nooks, and crannies. 3) No possible damage to the ProSeal. 4) You can properly prep the surfaces for the Alodine application. Bill Dube' ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:05:29 PM PST US From: "Ted D. Hultzapple" Subject: RV-List: Governor bracket --> RV-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" Can anyone tell me if the bracket that Van's sells (VA-153-PC) will fit the Jihostroj governor? Thanks, Ted ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:36 PM PST US From: "Brett Morawski" Subject: RE: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Morawski" I got fish eyes in my first batch of primer. Turns out the problem had been with my bright idea to transfer the primer components to the mixing container using cheap squeeze bulb turkey basters. I found something in the archives or somewhere else that said one of the primer components would dissolve certain rubbers or plastics and contaminate the primer and result in fish eyes. Since I still use plastic mixing cups with no problem then I'm guessing the primer dissolved the rubber bulb material. Anyway, you might want to think about everything your primer comes into contact with on its way to the aluminum. Brett Toledo 8a wings -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brad Oliver Subject: RV-List: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: "Brad Oliver" Since starting my empennage about a few weeks ago, I set out today to do my first batch of priming. Unfortunately the results were less than stellar... I am using the AFS Water-based 1-Part Primer/Sealer, sprayed by a Harbor Freight HVLP Detail Gun. My process was a simple one used by several other builders... wipe down parts with lacquer thinner, wash with dawn, clean/etch with AFS etcher/cleaner, wash parts with clean water, dry, then spray the primer. What I ended up with was a combination of orange peel, fish eyes, and splattered primer. Caused by... I don't know... me, my process, my equipment, or a combination??? My understanding is that the fish eyes are caused by surface contamination. I scrubbed the parts with a soapy scotchbrite, rinsed them, then cleaned with AFS Cleaner/Etch, rinsed again, dried them using air, and sprayed the primer only minutes after etching. I am baffled because I never touched the parts with my bare hands and the rinse water always sheeted... the parts *appeared* to be clean, obviously they were not. Any suggestions on how to avoid the fish eyes or improve my process? Would wiping the parts with a tack rag prior to spraying the primer be advisable? Could the fish eyes have been caused my contaminants in the air supply or spray gun? What I am less clear on is the orange peel and splattered primer (almost like texture). I sprayed outside on a sunny day with temps in the high 70s (maybe a little higher). Could the outside temp or the temp of the parts have anything to do with the orange peel or splattered primer? Any idea what is going wrong and what I can do to resolve these issues? On a side note, I am not impressed with the Harbor Freight HVLP gun... it seems to either spray little to no primer or too much primer, but never in between. The primer getting lower in the cup seems to create a vacuum above the primer which prevents primer from feeding into the gun, then upon releasing the vacuum by opening the lid on the cup the gun sprays excessively until it eventually builds up a vacuum again and stops altogether. Thanks, Brad Oliver RV-7 Livermore, CA PS - Those self-etching rattle can primers are sounding better every minute. ;-) Message transport security by GatewayDefender.com 1:42:19 AM ET - 6/20/2005 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:52:56 PM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RE: RV-List: Governor bracket --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" I got my bracket from vans but I had to cut it and re-weld it to make it fit the way I wanted it to. John RV6A O-320 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:38:40 PM PST US From: "glaesers" Subject: RV-List: RE: Problems Spraying Primer (AFS)... suggestions please. --> RV-List message posted by: "glaesers" Wow - I just primed a bunch of parts for my empennage this weekend - and everything came out fine. I'm using the AFS primer (one part) - sounds like Brett used a two-part primer. I'm using the small primer sprayer from Vans catalog which uses 35mm canisters and had the same 'bright idea' about using a turkey baster to fill the canister. Since the volume is small, I only needed to fill the baster about half way. I never let the paint come in contact with the bulb because I didn't want to hassle with cleaning it. Being lazy pays off once in a while :-) Maybe the one-part primer doesn't attack the bulb material (I'll have to test it), but it's not worth taking a chance! Dennis Glaeser Rochester Hills, MI 7A Empennage -------------------------------------------- --> RV-List message posted by: "Brett Morawski" I got fish eyes in my first batch of primer. Turns out the problem had been with my bright idea to transfer the primer components to the mixing container using cheap squeeze bulb turkey basters. I found something in the archives or somewhere else that said one of the primer components would dissolve certain rubbers or plastics and contaminate the primer and result in fish eyes. Since I still use plastic mixing cups with no problem then I'm guessing the primer dissolved the rubber bulb material. Anyway, you might want to think about everything your primer comes into contact with on its way to the aluminum. Brett Toledo 8a wings ------------------------------------------ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:14 PM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Governor bracket --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" I have an 8.5 x 11 sheet from Van's that is the "Installation/Orientation, MT Governor/VA-183 Bracket. I am quite sure this is the Jihostroj governor that I bought from Van's, but note the bracket number is different from the one you mention. Terry RV-8A; Superior/Aero Sport Power IO-360-b1b Finishing -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted D. Hultzapple Subject: RV-List: Governor bracket --> RV-List message posted by: "Ted D. Hultzapple" Can anyone tell me if the bracket that Van's sells (VA-153-PC) will fit the Jihostroj governor? Thanks, Ted _