Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:03 AM - Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] (dralle@matronics.com)
2. 03:58 AM - Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY (Francis Malczynski)
3. 04:57 AM - (owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com)
4. 04:59 AM - Re: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report (Jeff Dowling)
5. 05:03 AM - Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY (Dave Durakovich)
6. 06:15 AM - OSH Winners (John Huft)
7. 06:17 AM - Autopilot setup (Grenwis@aol.com)
8. 06:31 AM - Re: Autopilot setup (sportav8r@aol.com)
9. 07:39 AM - Re: Concord, CA (Hull, Don)
10. 07:47 AM - Re: Autopilot setup (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
11. 07:58 AM - Re: Concord, CA (Robert Cutter)
12. 08:03 AM - Re: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report (Bob C.)
13. 12:26 PM - cleaning inverted oil system (Jason Sneed)
14. 01:03 PM - Varsol (Jason Sneed)
15. 01:09 PM - And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Ross Mickey)
16. 01:27 PM - Gettin off da pot (charlie heathco)
17. 01:41 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (linn walters)
18. 01:41 PM - Re: Varsol (Doug Rozendaal)
19. 02:26 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Bob J)
20. 02:27 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Hull, Don)
21. 02:46 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Mike Robertson)
22. 02:48 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (gert)
23. 02:50 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Scott Bilinski)
24. 02:56 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Ross Mickey)
25. 03:07 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Ross Mickey)
26. 03:12 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Ross Mickey)
27. 03:14 PM - Attitude, was another crash (Doug Rozendaal)
28. 03:19 PM - Re: Glad your injuries were not severe (Mark Grieve)
29. 03:23 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Kyle Boatright)
30. 03:28 PM - Re: Autopilot setup (Sam Buchanan)
31. 04:20 PM - Re: Attitude, was another crash (Stein Bruch)
32. 04:48 PM - Re: C-Frame Mod (Dave Saylor)
33. 04:58 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Ed Anderson)
34. 05:57 PM - Re: Attitude, was another crash (Kevin Horton)
35. 06:13 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Larry Bowen)
36. 06:28 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (mark phipps)
37. 07:20 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Richard Leach)
38. 08:06 PM - Re: Varsol (Charlie England)
39. 08:39 PM - Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report (Bob Collins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Official Usage Guideline [Please Read] [Monthly Posting] |
DNA: do not archive
--> RV-List message posted by: dralle@matronics.com
Dear Lister,
Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
RVSouthEast-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RVSouthEast-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the RVSouthEast-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
RVSouthEast-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the RVSouthEast-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Francis Malczynski" <ebbfmm@yahoo.com>
Jerry, while building I accidentally discharged my Odyssey 625 down to
nothing. I kept it on a 6 amp charge for over 24 hours and brought it all
the way back. Ive been flying with that battery for over three years now
with no problems. Good Luck
Fran Malczynski
RV-6 N594EF
Olcott, NY
ebbfmm@yahoo.com
"Freedom is never more than one generatipon away from extinction."...Ronald
Reagan
Message 3
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asdfasdfasdfasdfasdfasdf
--> RV-List message posted by:
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling2@earthlink.net>
Xm music used to be included. Oh well.
Shemp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Nafsinger" <nick@creteaviation.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Nick Nafsinger" <nick@creteaviation.com>
>
>
> $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want
> music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount,
> doesn't matter.
>
> To see what features you get in each package look here:
> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html
>
> Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer!
> My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in
> from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on.
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
> How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using
> the 396?
>
> Rick
>
>
> --
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: ODYSSEY BATTERY |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Durakovich <ddurakovich@yahoo.com>
Jerry,
I just did the same thing with a PC680. Got back from Oshkosh to find the master
on and the battery dead! It was left on for about 7 days, and all that was
energized was the master solenoid, so I have no idea how long it was completely
dead, but it was!
I ended up buying a 10 amp marine type charger (a story in itself!), made for deep
discharge batteries. Interesting note watching the charging cycle: it started
at about 2 - 3 amps for the first 30 - 60 minutes, then gradually worked it's
way up to about 8 amps, and then gradually back down until fully charged.
I charged it on Saturday, and as of last night it was still at 12.8 volts, enough
to energize the master solenoid and spin the starter (with no flywheel on).
Hope this helps.....
Dave
***************************************************************************************************
Listers
I have a Odyssey PC 625 battery in my RV6A. My airplane isn't finished
yet,
it is still in my basement. I have been adjusting on my flaps, and left the
master switch on for about 2 weeks. My battery is dead now. I can't seem
to get
it back up to full charge.
The manual says to charge it at 10 amps for no more then 3 hours. I can't
get it to take charge. It is showing about 5 volts.
Does anybody know how to get this battery back to full charge?
Thanks
Jerry Davis Glen Carbon ,ILL
Message 6
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TO_ADDRESS_EQ_REAL,UPPERCASE_25_50 autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.3
--> RV-List message posted by: John Huft <rv8@lazy8.net>
BIG Congratulations to the Oshkosh Award Winners!!
OUTSTANDING WORKMANSHIP - KIT BUILT
Klaus Heddergott, Mariposa, CA - RV-6, N419D
Mark Robinson, Vista, CA - RV-9A, N249GM
Dane Patterson, Newnan, GA - RV-8, N460DP
Larry Feldhousen, Burlington, CO - RV-10, N104LJ
BRONZE LINDY KIT BUILT
Mark Phillips, Columbia, TN - RV-6A, N51PW
Don Schmiesing, Granite Falls, WA - RV-8, N417DS
John Stewart, Burlington, CO - RV-10, N104ME
HOMEBUILTS SILVER LINDY
RESERVE GRAND CHAMPION - KIT BUILT
Gregory Gruninger, Jeffersonville, IN - RV-8, N7GC "Mean Streak"
Way to go Greg!!!
Also, congrats to Jon Ross whose RV8 proved to be the fastest RV in the
Airventure Cup Race, Dayton to Oshkosh. We need more RVs next year!
John Huft
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: Grenwis@aol.com
I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ Pilot.
I have it installed in a 6A. The setup involves setting several gain
parameters which control the rate of pull-in back to the center of the GPS track
line.
I wonder where other pilots have theirs set? I don't want to complain yet
as it is likely my settings, but there are two things I don't like right now.
My control stick twitches left and then right during level flight about once
per second. The movement is jerky and the effect is to make me want to turn
off the autopilot. But, the autopilot is great to have. Flying to Oshkosh, it
was wonderful, but my position varied up to 0.15 miles left and right of the
center line. That seems like too much. So help me out. Folks with the EZ
Pilot, what are your gain settings for the <0.07 mile range, and for the next one
up (<.25 mi)? I've reduced my gains to try to reduce the twitching, but that
probably led to the 0.15 mile variation. Don't draw an unfavorable
conclusion about the autopilot. I think its only problem is my setup, so I'm asking
for help. Many thanks.
Rick Grenwis
N613G - RV6AQB - 90 hours
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Autopilot setup |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Rick:
I'll be interested in the replies you get to this. After months of evaluating
and fence-sitting, I am planning to order my Trio T-O-D-A-Y! (For the RV-6A).
Did you use the SafeAir installation kit, or roll your own? I have the kit already.
Just wondering if that might be a factor in set-up difficulty.
-Bill B ("Stormy")
-----Original Message-----
From: Grenwis@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Autopilot setup
--> RV-List message posted by: Grenwis@aol.com
I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ Pilot. <snip>
do not archive
Message 9
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
To all on the RV-List,
I just want to publicly say I feel like a dunce. I did send a personal note
to M/M van Grunsven apologizing for my hasty note yesterday. I hope they
received sufficient replies to their initial question so they can safely
arrive at Concord. I don't think I have ever seen a domain name of
"vansgrunsven.us" before and when it appeared on the RV-List, I thought
someone was trying to "pull our leg." So again I have learned a lesson...
Think before I post. Sometimes that's hard for me to do.
Chagrined and deeply apologetic,
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Springer
Subject: Re: RV-List: Concord, CA
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@comcast.net>
Actually it is Vans brother. :-) along with Mike I know them also Hi Stan, I
have never been to Concord or would try to give you some help
Jerry
do not archive
Hull, Don wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
>
>If this is not a hoax, I apologize. OTOH, if it is, shame on you.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan & Eilene
>To: rv-list
>Subject: RV-List: Concord, CA
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stan & Eilene" <stan@vangrunsven.us>
>
>We are low-time pilots with very little experience with towered
>airports. We are wondering if someone could give us advice on the
>airport at Concord, CA, as we are interested in flying into there the
>12th of August, arriving around noon. Are there any particular gotchas
>that we need to be aware of. We will be attending a family wedding.
>
>Please contact off-list only.
>
>Our e-mail address: stan@vangrunsven.us
>
>Do not archive!
>
>Stan
>RV-6A
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
I think my gain is set to 1.
Experiment with it in flight. Easy to play with while you are flying and
you will see instant results.
You should feel absolutely nothing in flight unless you are in
turbulence and it should handle the corrections smoothly.
Mike
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grenwis@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Autopilot setup
--> RV-List message posted by: Grenwis@aol.com
I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ
Pilot.
I have it installed in a 6A. The setup involves setting several gain
parameters which control the rate of pull-in back to the center of the
GPS track line.
I wonder where other pilots have theirs set? I don't want to complain
yet
as it is likely my settings, but there are two things I don't like right
now.
My control stick twitches left and then right during level flight about
once
per second. The movement is jerky and the effect is to make me want to
turn
off the autopilot. But, the autopilot is great to have. Flying to
Oshkosh, it
was wonderful, but my position varied up to 0.15 miles left and right of
the
center line. That seems like too much. So help me out. Folks with the
EZ
Pilot, what are your gain settings for the <0.07 mile range, and for the
next one
up (<.25 mi)? I've reduced my gains to try to reduce the twitching, but
that
probably led to the 0.15 mile variation. Don't draw an unfavorable
conclusion about the autopilot. I think its only problem is my setup,
so I'm asking
for help. Many thanks.
Rick Grenwis
N613G - RV6AQB - 90 hours
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Robert Cutter" <rcutter@cupower.com>
Don, I, for one, thank you for your imput. As I read just the other day, it
seems GA has to police itself. This is a good thing, though. Better be
safe than sorry and I would hope that you or someone else would do the same
thing again.
Yesterday I had an email from "the administrator" of my ISP. Was strangely
worded with an attachment that I didn't open, but called the ISP. Sure
enough, it was bogus. Never can tell.
Thanks again, Don.
RVRC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: RV-List: Concord, CA
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
>
> To all on the RV-List,
> I just want to publicly say I feel like a dunce. I did send a personal
> note
> to M/M van Grunsven apologizing for my hasty note yesterday. I hope they
> received sufficient replies to their initial question so they can safely
> arrive at Concord. I don't think I have ever seen a domain name of
> "vansgrunsven.us" before and when it appeared on the RV-List, I thought
> someone was trying to "pull our leg." So again I have learned a lesson...
> Think before I post. Sometimes that's hard for me to do.
> Chagrined and deeply apologetic,
> Don
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jerry Springer
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Concord, CA
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer <jsflyrv@comcast.net>
>
> Actually it is Vans brother. :-) along with Mike I know them also Hi Stan,
> I
> have never been to Concord or would try to give you some help
>
> Jerry
> do not archive
>
>
> Hull, Don wrote:
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
>>
>>If this is not a hoax, I apologize. OTOH, if it is, shame on you.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stan & Eilene
>>To: rv-list
>>Subject: RV-List: Concord, CA
>>
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Stan & Eilene" <stan@vangrunsven.us>
>>
>>We are low-time pilots with very little experience with towered
>>airports. We are wondering if someone could give us advice on the
>>airport at Concord, CA, as we are interested in flying into there the
>>12th of August, arriving around noon. Are there any particular gotchas
>>that we need to be aware of. We will be attending a family wedding.
>>
>>Please contact off-list only.
>>
>>Our e-mail address: stan@vangrunsven.us
>>
>>Do not archive!
>>
>>Stan
>>RV-6A
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob C. " <flyboy.bob@gmail.com>
I talked to XM about the price being a little high for the "casual flyer" .
. . and they said they understood that, and to keep watching for "more
reasonable pricing"?!
Bob Christensen
RV-8 Bldr - SE Iowa
On 7/31/05, Nick Nafsinger <nick@creteaviation.com> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Nick Nafsinger" <nick@creteaviation.com>
>
>
> $30 for the Basic and $50 for Everything. Add another $7 if you want
> music. The prices are fixed for everything XM, Portable, Panel Mount,
> doesn't matter.
>
> To see what features you get in each package look here:
> http://www.xmradio.com/weather/av_service_pricing.html
>
> Now the disclamer. I don't work for XM, I'm just a VERY happy customer!
> My inflight 396 report is darn near identical to Stu's except I flew in
> from Western MN. Nexrad, Winds, everything where spot on.
>
> Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Galati
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Garmin 396 In-Flight Report
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
>
> How much are the monthly fees for accessing the weather services using
> the 396?
>
> Rick
>
>
> --
>
>
> --
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | cleaning inverted oil system |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed <n242ds@cox.net>
I have a christen inverted oil system install in my RV-6, I have
noticed more and more oil on the belly lately, While reading the
manual on the inverted oil system I noticed it says to flush the
system with varsol every 300 hours. I have about 600 hours on the
engine and it has not been flushed. Can anyone tell me the process or
a way to reach the people that build the inverted oil system?
Thanks,
Jason
Message 14
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--> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed <n242ds@cox.net>
Can someone tell me where to buy Varsol?
Thanks,
Jason
Message 15
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
Ross Mickey
N9PT (parts)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
take off.
Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
them for being there.
So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
the way it did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
other bruises and released a day or two later.
He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
don't expect that for a few days.
The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
Message 16
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| Subject: | Gettin off da pot |
autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.2
--> RV-List message posted by: "charlie heathco" <cheathco@gvtc.com>
Well, I did it after lots of should I or shouldnt I, I have the EZ Pilot and the
EZ-1 as well as the RV6 instal kit on order. Thanks to all who gave me input
on it. Charlie Heathco
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2
outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at
Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience
(aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK
with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only)
year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years .....
and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird ....
which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It
took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region
with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck,
Linn
Ross Mickey wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
>I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
>pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
>Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
>of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
>of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
>and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
>by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
>I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
>
>First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
>path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
>to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
>that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
>other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
>Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
>advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
>to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
>Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
>
>After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
>and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
>holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
>planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
>ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
>already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
>assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
>stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
>around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
>slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
>Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
>mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
>
>When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
>around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
>front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
>him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
>Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
>to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
>the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
>Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
>towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
>had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
>final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
>had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
>
>The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
>as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
>of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
>this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
>approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
>to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
>
>The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
>reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
>which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
>the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
>My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
>of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
>rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
>gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
>
>My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
>seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
>bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
>were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
>point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
>replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
>
>I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
>Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
>some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
>builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
>
>If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
>http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
>9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
>some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
>and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
>his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
>Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
>Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
>
>Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
>I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
>
>Ross Mickey
>N9PT (parts)
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
>Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
>
>I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
>engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
>in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
>minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
>numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
>heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
>watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
>gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
>approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
>quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
>wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
>down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
>about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
>dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
>not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
>tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
>squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
>of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
>should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
>the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
>them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
>want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
>time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
>where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
>inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
>us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
>the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
>couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
>that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
>there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
>Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
>take off.
> Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
>your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
>your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
>the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
>However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
>almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
>ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
> This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
>had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
>burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
>for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
>out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
>them for being there.
> So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
>flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
>the way it did.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
>
>I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
>restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
>scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
>after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
>again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
>was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
>got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
>and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
>but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
>soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
>over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
>("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
>not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
>other bruises and released a day or two later.
>
>He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
>likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
>He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
>especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
>anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
>
>Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
>plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
>Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
>struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
>front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
>he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
>don't expect that for a few days.
>
>The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
>have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
>into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
>
>Randy Lervold
>www.rv-3.com
>
>
>
>
--
Message 18
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
Varsol, Stanasol, Stoddard solvent, mineral spirits, Naptha, all the same
thing. Any auto parts store, Paint store, or Lube oil distributor
Doug Rozendaal
Lube Oil Distributor
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Sneed" <n242ds@cox.net>
Subject: RV-List: Varsol
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jason Sneed <n242ds@cox.net>
>
> Can someone tell me where to buy Varsol?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
>
>
>
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
About four years ago I was landing in close trail behind another
airplane, at an altitude of about 20 feet I got into their wake
turbulence. With full right aileron, I was still turning to the left.
I was trying so hard to turn that I slightly released right stick
pressure and slammed the stick to the stop to make sure I was hitting
the stop. At that point I put in more right rudder, until I was
straight and level again, and landed. This all happened in a matter
of 2-3 seconds. Ever since then I've very keen on observing the
touchdown point of the airplane in front of me and making sure that I
stay out of their wake turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready
to go around every time.
Regards,
Bob Japundza
RV-6 flying 600+ hours, F1 under const.
On 8/2/05, linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>
> Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2
> outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at
> Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience
> (aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK
> with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only)
> year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years .....
> and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird ....
> which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It
> took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region
> with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck,
> Linn
>
> Ross Mickey wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
> >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
> >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
> >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
> >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
> >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
> >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
> >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
> >
> >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
> >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
> >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
> >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
> >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
> >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
> >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
> >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
> >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
> >
> >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
> >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
> >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
> >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
> >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
> >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
> >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
> >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
> >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
> >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
> >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
> >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
> >
> >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
> >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
> >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
> >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
> >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
> >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
> >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
> >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
> >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
> >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
> >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
> >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
> >
> >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
> >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
> >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
> >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
> >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
> >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
> >
> >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
> >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
> >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
> >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
> >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
> >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
> >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
> >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
> >
> >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
> >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
> >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
> >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
> >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
> >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
> >
> >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
> >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
> >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
> >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
> >
> >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
> >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
> >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
> >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
> >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
> >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
> >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
> >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
> >
> >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
> >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
> >
> >Ross Mickey
> >N9PT (parts)
> >
> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
> >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
> >
> >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
> >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
> >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
> >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
> >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
> >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
> >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
> >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
> >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
> >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
> >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
> >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
> >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
> >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
> >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
> >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
> >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
> >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
> >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
> >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
> >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
> >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
> >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
> >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
> >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
> >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
> >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
> >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
> >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
> >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
> >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
> >take off.
> > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
> >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
> >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
> >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
> >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
> >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
> >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
> > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
> >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
> >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
> >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
> >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
> >them for being there.
> > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
> >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
> >the way it did.
> >
> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> >"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
> >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
> >
> >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
> >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
> >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
> >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
> >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
> >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
> >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
> >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
> >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
> >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
> >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
> >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
> >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
> >other bruises and released a day or two later.
> >
> >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
> >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
> >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
> >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
> >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
> >
> >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
> >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
> >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
> >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
> >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
> >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
> >don't expect that for a few days.
> >
> >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
> >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
> >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
> >
> >Randy Lervold
> >www.rv-3.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Hull, Don" <Donald.C.Hull@nasa.gov>
Wow, Ross, thanks for sharing your story with us. I didn't make it to OSH
this year, but from my past experiences, I can say every arrival at OSH or
Sun'n Fun is different. With time, I'm sure your emotional pains will
heal.
Don
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey
Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh."...
Message 21
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
Ross,
I'm sorry to hear about your beautiful plane but even more glad to hear that
you are OK. Didn't you have a few changes you wanted to make anyways. I
guess you will/can make them now.
Mike robertson
Do Not Archive
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
>I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
>pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh."...
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
quite interestingly, your nose wheel does not appear to have bent.
Ross Mickey wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
>I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
>pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
>Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
>of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
>of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
>and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
>by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
>I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
>
>First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
>path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
>to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
>that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
>other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
>Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
>advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
>to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
>Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
>
>After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
>and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
>holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
>planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
>ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
>already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
>assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
>stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
>around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
>slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
>Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
>mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
>
>When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
>around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
>front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
>him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
>Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
>to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
>the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
>Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
>towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
>had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
>final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
>had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
>
>The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
>as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
>of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
>this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
>approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
>to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
>
>The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
>reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
>which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
>the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
>My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
>of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
>rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
>gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
>
>My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
>seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
>bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
>were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
>point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
>replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
>
>I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
>Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
>some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
>builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
>
>If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
>http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
>9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
>some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
>and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
>his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
>Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
>Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
>
>Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
>I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
>
>Ross Mickey
>N9PT (parts)
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
>Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
>
>I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
>engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
>in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
>minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
>numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
>heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
>watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
>gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
>approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
>quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
>wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
>down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
>about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
>dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
>not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
>tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
>squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
>of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
>should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
>the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
>them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
>want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
>time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
>where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
>inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
>us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
>the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
>couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
>that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
>there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
>Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
>take off.
> Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
>your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
>your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
>the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
>However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
>almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
>ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
> This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
>had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
>burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
>for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
>out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
>them for being there.
> So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
>flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
>the way it did.
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
>Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
>
>I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
>restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
>scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
>after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
>again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
>was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
>got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
>and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
>but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
>soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
>over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
>("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
>not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
>other bruises and released a day or two later.
>
>He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
>likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
>He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
>especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
>anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
>
>Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
>plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
>Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
>struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
>front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
>he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
>don't expect that for a few days.
>
>The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
>have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
>into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
>
>Randy Lervold
>www.rv-3.com
>
>
>
>
--
is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski <bilinski@kyocera-wireless.com>
I have an exercise for everyone. Go up with a buddy and fly in trail, at
about 200 feet back from the lead, fly in the turbulence, it is an eye
opener. I would not want to encounter this 10~20 feet off the ground when
landing. When heading to OSH last year I got bored on the flight and
purposely flew in the turbulence of the aircraft I was flying with. It is
also interesting to come into the turbulence form the side and get just a
few feet of the wing in it. Next thing you know you start turning to the
......right, I think, with out putting any control input in! This also gets
your attention fast. If your not expecting it, it REALLY gets your attention.
At 04:17 PM 8/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
>About four years ago I was landing in close trail behind another
>airplane, at an altitude of about 20 feet I got into their wake
>turbulence. With full right aileron, I was still turning to the left.
> I was trying so hard to turn that I slightly released right stick
>pressure and slammed the stick to the stop to make sure I was hitting
>the stop. At that point I put in more right rudder, until I was
>straight and level again, and landed. This all happened in a matter
>of 2-3 seconds. Ever since then I've very keen on observing the
>touchdown point of the airplane in front of me and making sure that I
>stay out of their wake turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready
>to go around every time.
>
>Regards,
>Bob Japundza
>RV-6 flying 600+ hours, F1 under const.
>
>On 8/2/05, linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
> > --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
> >
> > Ross, welcome to the club! You have the distinction of joining the "1/2
> > outside loop on landing" club. I made the same maneuver in my Pitts at
> > Sun-N-Fun a few years back. Like you, it was a learning experience
> > (aren't they all?) and unlike you I didn't have insurance. That was OK
> > with me. My Pitts was 13 years old at that point. My first (and only)
> > year I had hull which cost an extra $1000. Fast forward 12 years .....
> > and I have a cool $12K in that 'bank in the sky' to fix my bird ....
> > which I did. Funny (maybe not!) you mention the emotional state. It
> > took me a long time to regain confidence in myself and my comfort region
> > with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck,
> > Linn
> >
> > Ross Mickey wrote:
> >
> > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
> > >
> > >I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
> > >pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
> > >Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
> > >of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
> > >of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
> > >and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
> > >by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
> > >I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
> > >
> > >First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
> > >path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
> > >to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
> > >that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
> > >other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
> > >Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
> > >advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
> > >to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
> > >Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
> > >
> > >After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
> > >and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
> > >holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
> > >planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
> > >ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
> > >already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
> > >assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
> > >stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
> > >around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
> > >slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
> > >Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
> > >mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
> > >
> > >When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
> > >around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
> > >front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
> > >him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
> > >Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
> > >to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
> > >the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
> > >Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
> > >towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
> > >had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
> > >final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
> > >had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
> > >
> > >The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
> > >as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
> > >of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
> > >this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
> > >approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
> > >to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
> > >
> > >The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
> > >reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
> > >which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
> > >the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
> > >My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
> > >of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
> > >rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
> > >gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
> > >
> > >My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
> > >seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
> > >bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
> > >were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
> > >point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
> > >replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
> > >
> > >I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
> > >Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
> > >some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
> > >builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
> > >
> > >If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
> > >http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
> > >9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
> > >some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
> > >and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
> > >his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
> > >Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
> > >Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
> > >
> > >Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
> > >I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
> > >
> > >Ross Mickey
> > >N9PT (parts)
> > >
> > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
> > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
> > >
> > >I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
> > >engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
> > >in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
> > >minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
> > >numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
> > >heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
> > >watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
> > >gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
> > >approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
> > >quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
> > >wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
> > >down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
> > >about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
> > >dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
> > >not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
> > >tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
> > >squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
> > >of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
> > >should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
> > >the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
> > >them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
> > >want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
> > >time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
> > >where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
> > >inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
> > >us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
> > >the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
> > >couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
> > >that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
> > >there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
> > >Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
> > >take off.
> > > Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
> > >your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
> > >your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
> > >the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
> > >However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> > > I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
> > >almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
> > >ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
> > > This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
> > >had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
> > >burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
> > >for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
> > >out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
> > >them for being there.
> > > So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
> > >flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
> > >the way it did.
> > >
> > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > >"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
> > >Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
> > >
> > >I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
> > >restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
> > >scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
> > >after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
> > >again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
> > >was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
> > >got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
> > >and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
> > >but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
> > >soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
> > >over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
> > >("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
> > >not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
> > >other bruises and released a day or two later.
> > >
> > >He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
> > >likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
> > >He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
> > >especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
> > >anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
> > >
> > >Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
> > >plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
> > >Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
> > >struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
> > >front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
> > >he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
> > >don't expect that for a few days.
> > >
> > >The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
> > >have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
> > >into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
> > >
> > >Randy Lervold
> > >www.rv-3.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Scott Bilinski
Eng dept 305
Phone (858) 657-2536
Pager (858) 502-5190
Message 24
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>Ever since then I've very keen on observing the touchdown point of the
airplane in front of me and making >sure that I stay out of their wake
turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready to go around every time.
I have pondered this very question. The only ways to avoid the wake is
to land past it or wait for it to dissipate. Since I was instructed to
land BEFORE the lead planes touchdown point, my only option would be to
go around. Next time, that is what I will do. Next time, I will either
be the lead plane landing long or a longer way back from the plane I am
following. "Never Again" will I be the plane landing under another's
wake.
Ross
Message 25
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mike Robertson" <mrobert569@hotmail.com>
>Didn't you have a few changes you wanted to make anyways.
My canopy did have a crack in it.......
Message 26
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: gert <gert.v@sbcglobal.net>
>quite interestingly, your nose wheel does not appear to have bent.
Look at picture 5. It was in an almost complete "C." We took it off
and used Steve Meyers torch to heat it up and get it straight enough to
be used for the transport home.
Ross
Message 27
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| Subject: | Attitude, was another crash |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Snip
>
> with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of luck,
> Linn
>
Linn,
You are correct, you are not the same, you are better for the experience.
I too am a "member of the club" and, I hope, better for it. There is lots
of invincibility running around in the RV community. I had plenty of that
attitude. My accident adjusted my attitude. I am not saying my attitude
problem is cured, it never is, keeping attitude in check is a continuous
battle when flying airplanes. It is especially difficult flying airplanes
with performance like RV's or, worse, some of the cool airplanes that I fly.
The RV flies so well and so easy that we start to believe that we are really
good. That is B.S.
Get this part here. Pilot skill is seldom the problem. Most airplanes
crash because of attitude. Our attitude takes us to a place that our
airplane can't get us out of, and then there is a crash.
You don't believe that? Let me list some of my dead friends. Charlie
Hillard, French Connection, Sonny Lovelace and Randy Drake (Red Barons)
Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin, Ian Groom, shall I continue? Does anyone
think these guys were short on skill?
Questioning our decision making is a good thing in aviation. This fighter
pilot ego crap that we must mentally dominate my enemy by believing that we
are the best in the world and no one can beat us is a great thing for
defending the freedom of our country.
We are trying to travel, have fun and live to fly another day. We need to
use a Cockpit Resource Management model that goes like this:
1. acknowledge that we make errors.
2. trap the errors before they become problems.
3. mitigate the damage from the errors that get past step 2.
Many people crash and do not change their attitudes. They can't even get to
step 1. They won't admit that they make mistakes and change their behavior.
They keep crashing until they are eliminated from the gene pool. The
insurance companies will tell you that anyone who has crashed once is far
more likely to crash again.
I crashed my airplane because my ego was out of control and none of my
friends took me aside to square me up. Shattering your kneecap squares you
up. It changed my approach to flying. I still make mistakes, lots of them.
I still wrestle to control my "fighter pilot" attitude. I try to accept
counsel from my peers and offer it when I think their attitudes are getting
dangerous.
If we don't counsel our peers when they get out of hand, then we have blood
on our hands when they get hurt.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Glad your injuries were not severe |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mark Grieve <mark@macomb.com>
Ross,
I was sad to hear of your mishap at Oshkosh. We are all glad that your
injuries were not severe.
I don't know what your plans are but assume you will build or rebuild. I
inherited some parts for an RV-6 empennage, mainly skins. You may have
them if they would be of use. I don't know the history of the parts but
they were included with a 7 empennage kit. There is no builder number
for these parts and they are of no use to me. I also know where there is
a finished horizontal stab.
Let me know if I should start building a crate.
Mark
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Bob J <rocketbob@gmail.com>
>
>>Ever since then I've very keen on observing the touchdown point of the
> airplane in front of me and making >sure that I stay out of their wake
> turbulence with my hand on the throttle ready to go around every time.
>
> I have pondered this very question. The only ways to avoid the wake is
> to land past it or wait for it to dissipate. Since I was instructed to
> land BEFORE the lead planes touchdown point, my only option would be to
> go around. Next time, that is what I will do. Next time, I will either
> be the lead plane landing long or a longer way back from the plane I am
> following. "Never Again" will I be the plane landing under another's
> wake.
>
> Ross
Depending on the winds, I'd suggest that another option is to land on the
upwind side of the runway. With even a 5 mph crosswind component, a 10
second spacing will let the lead aircraft's wake blow 75' or so downwind,
which should give plenty of room, assuming the lead aircraft landed anywhere
close to the centerline.
This is also something to consider if you do formation takeoffs. If you're
#2, make sure you're on the upwind side of lead during takeoff, 'cause there
is some nasty turbulence on the downwind side of a low/slow RV.
KB
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Autopilot setup |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Grenwis@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Grenwis@aol.com
>
> I'd like some advice on how people have setup their Trio Avionics EZ Pilot.
> I have it installed in a 6A. The setup involves setting several gain
> parameters which control the rate of pull-in back to the center of the GPS track
line.
> I wonder where other pilots have theirs set? I don't want to complain yet
> as it is likely my settings, but there are two things I don't like right now.
> My control stick twitches left and then right during level flight about once
> per second. The movement is jerky and the effect is to make me want to turn
> off the autopilot. But, the autopilot is great to have. Flying to Oshkosh,
it
> was wonderful, but my position varied up to 0.15 miles left and right of the
> center line. That seems like too much. So help me out. Folks with the EZ
> Pilot, what are your gain settings for the <0.07 mile range, and for the next
one
> up (<.25 mi)? I've reduced my gains to try to reduce the twitching, but that
> probably led to the 0.15 mile variation. Don't draw an unfavorable
> conclusion about the autopilot. I think its only problem is my setup, so I'm
asking
> for help. Many thanks.
>
> Rick Grenwis
> N613G - RV6AQB - 90 hours
Rick, I use settings of 1 and 2. The EZ-Pilot should be able to hold the
plane to within 0.01 mile of course. I often see a deviation of 0.00!
Here are a couple of things to consider:
1) Make absolutely sure there is NO slop in the servo connection to your
aileron controls. You didn't mention how your servo is connected. Best
way to eliminate any play in the system is to connect the servo to the
aileron bellcrank in the wing. Also be sure the servo is mounted
solidly. It would take only a tiny amount of play in the servo mount for
the servo to overshoot neutral and begin hunting.
2) Call Trio and verify you have the latest software. There was a
release a while back that *might* have effected a few units and *could*
have caused behavior as you described. The current software should work
flawlessly.
3) While unlikely, you may have a flaky servo. Be sure you confirm the
above issues before suspecting the servo. The servo is usually a very
reliable unit.
Stay after it! The EZ-Pilot is a fantastic system and once you exorcise
this bug you will be amazed at how well the unit can fly your plane. The
guys at Trio are very serious about supporting their puppy so don't
hesitate to get in touch with them.
Sam Buchanan (RV-6, 680 hrs, 150 with the EZ-Pilot)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Attitude, was another crash |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stein Bruch" <stein@steinair.com>
Better words are rarely said, especially coming from one of the better
pilots I know (who's probably forgot more about flying than I know).....
Interestingly enough I had the good fortune, pleasure and privelage to fly
back seat with the Aeroshell T-6 Aerobatic Team during one of their shows at
OSH. All of their pilots are high time civilians, a couple of them are
current or former crop dusters. I'm truly amazed at their skill, but they
too have had more than one incident in their life and openly talk about the
lessons learned from them in hoping to pass on advice to greenhorns like me.
The way they treat their planes is amazing, their skill unbeivable, but in
the end they all still are very normal people. I flew with Gene who also
most certainly has forgotten more about flying those old birds than I'll
ever know, yet he's extremely humble, kind, and willing to share advice,
both positive and negative. Those guys treat each landing with extreme
caution, and overall I'm very impressed.
I know it doesn't directly relate to the subject at hand, but some of the
things I heard them say while speaking with them rang loud and clear on this
very subject. You'd think they'd have a pretty large ego, but they are the
most down to earth guys you'll every meet. They do 25+ shows per year and
see more than their share of incidents, and with their personal experiences
they are able to coach others on things like ego, attitude and such.
AND...Ross...don't you feel bad about this. You're not the first, nor will
you be the last. Hopefully everyone learns from this ordeal you had to
suffer through and I also appreciate that you were able to objectively share
this with everyone.
Cheers,
Stein.
Last but not least, all due respect and condolences for Jimmy and Bobby. I
spent some time with Jim & Ada at OSH and stood by them during the memorial.
I've never before seen 10's of thousands of people stand in utter silence.
Same goes for seeing that missing man formation performed by a group B-17's
for the -51 pilot. Both were stark reminders, and not something I'll soon
forget.
Do Not Archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Doug Rozendaal
Subject: RV-List: Attitude, was another crash
Linn,
You are correct, you are not the same, you are better for the experience.
I too am a "member of the club" and, I hope, better for it. There is lots
of invincibility running around in the RV community. I had plenty of that
attitude. My accident adjusted my attitude. I am not saying my attitude
problem is cured, it never is, keeping attitude in check is a continuous
battle when flying airplanes. It is especially difficult flying airplanes
with performance like RV's or, worse, some of the cool airplanes that I fly.
The RV flies so well and so easy that we start to believe that we are really
good. That is B.S.
Get this part here. Pilot skill is seldom the problem. Most airplanes
crash because of attitude. Our attitude takes us to a place that our
airplane can't get us out of, and then there is a crash.
You don't believe that? Let me list some of my dead friends. Charlie
Hillard, French Connection, Sonny Lovelace and Randy Drake (Red Barons)
Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin, Ian Groom, shall I continue? Does anyone
think these guys were short on skill?
Questioning our decision making is a good thing in aviation. This fighter
pilot ego crap that we must mentally dominate my enemy by believing that we
are the best in the world and no one can beat us is a great thing for
defending the freedom of our country.
We are trying to travel, have fun and live to fly another day. We need to
use a Cockpit Resource Management model that goes like this:
1. acknowledge that we make errors.
2. trap the errors before they become problems.
3. mitigate the damage from the errors that get past step 2.
Many people crash and do not change their attitudes. They can't even get to
step 1. They won't admit that they make mistakes and change their behavior.
They keep crashing until they are eliminated from the gene pool. The
insurance companies will tell you that anyone who has crashed once is far
more likely to crash again.
I crashed my airplane because my ego was out of control and none of my
friends took me aside to square me up. Shattering your kneecap squares you
up. It changed my approach to flying. I still make mistakes, lots of them.
I still wrestle to control my "fighter pilot" attitude. I try to accept
counsel from my peers and offer it when I think their attitudes are getting
dangerous.
If we don't counsel our peers when they get out of hand, then we have blood
on our hands when they get hurt.
Tailwinds,
Doug Rozendaal
Message 32
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Saylor" <Dave@aircraftersllc.com>
Stephanie,
Are you thinking of this? The squeezer is foot controlled and actuates very
slowly.
http://www.aircraftersllc.com/classifieds/yoke.htm
Please call if you'd like one.
Dave Saylor
AirCrafters LLC
831-722-9141
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Stephanie Marshall
Subject: RV-List: C-Frame Mod
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephanie Marshall" <smarshall@enid.org>
I remember seeing a modification for the C-Frame that replaces the striker
with a handle that is worked by either hydraulics or the Air Compressor. My
memory is REALLY vague on this, does anyone know where I can find out more
information on this?-
-Thanks,
Stephanie
www.rv-8a.4t.com
This electronic mail message is intended exclusively for the individual or
entity to which it is addressed. This message, together with any attachment,
may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized
review, use, print, retain, copy, disclosure or distribution is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
advise the sender and delete all copies of this message. Thank you
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
Thanks for sharing, Ross! An incredible experience and thankfully from
which you and aircraft are (will be) in condition to fly again.
I will never forget the time I was taking off behind an RV-3 (and
unfortunately did not think about the all the possibilities therein) after
the SERFI at Evergreen, Al. The RV-3 was rolling approx 200 ft in front of
me, when I started my take off roll in my Rv-6A. Everything was A OK and I
lifted off attained approx 80 mph and was 15-20 ft in the air when the
aircraft roll violently to the right. instinctively, I slammed the control
stick to the left hitting the stops with no response , remember distinctly
all that concrete filling the view - just had time to think "control
failure?" - when the aircraft rapidly rolled back to the left (thanks Van)
and I staggered away into the air with puckered seat cushion. Apparent
cause was the prop stream of the preceding small RV-3 - don't even like to
think what a larger aircraft/engine combination might have resulted in.
Good luck on a rapid rebuild.
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW
Matthews, NC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
> I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
> pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
> Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
> of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
> of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
> and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
> by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
> I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
>
> First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
> path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
> to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
> that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
> other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
> Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
> advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
> to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
> Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
>
> After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
> and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
> holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
> planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
> ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
> already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
> assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
> stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
> around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
> slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
> Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
> mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
>
> When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
> around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
> front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
> him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
> Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
> to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
> the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
> Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
> towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
> had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
> final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
> had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
>
> The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
> as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
> of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
> this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
> approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
> to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
>
> The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
> reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
> which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
> the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
> My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
> of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
> rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
> gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
>
> My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
> seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
> bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
> were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
> point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
> replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
>
> I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
> Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
> some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
> builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
>
> If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
> http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
> 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
> some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
> and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
> his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
> Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
> Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
>
> Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
> I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
>
> Ross Mickey
> N9PT (parts)
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
> Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
>
> I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
> engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
> in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
> minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
> numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
> heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
> watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
> gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
> approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
> quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
> wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
> down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
> about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
> dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
> not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
> tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
> squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
> of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
> should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
> the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
> them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
> want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
> time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
> where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
> inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
> us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
> the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
> couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
> that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
> there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
> Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
> take off.
> Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
> your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
> your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
> the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
> However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
> almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
> ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
> This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
> had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
> burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
> for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
> out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
> them for being there.
> So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
> flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
> the way it did.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
> Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
>
> I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
> restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
> scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
> after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
> again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
> was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
> got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
> and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
> but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
> soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
> over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
> ("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
> not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
> other bruises and released a day or two later.
>
> He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
> likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
> He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
> especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
> anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
>
> Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
> plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
> Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
> struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
> front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
> he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
> don't expect that for a few days.
>
> The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
> have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
> into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
>
> Randy Lervold
> www.rv-3.com
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Attitude, was another crash |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
>>
> Snip
>
>>
>> with crosswinds. The plane was the same, but I wasn't. Best of
>> luck,
>> Linn
>>
>>
>
> Linn,
>
> You are correct, you are not the same, you are better for the
> experience.
>
> I too am a "member of the club" and, I hope, better for it. There
> is lots
> of invincibility running around in the RV community. I had plenty
> of that
> attitude. My accident adjusted my attitude. I am not saying my
> attitude
> problem is cured, it never is, keeping attitude in check is a
> continuous
> battle when flying airplanes. It is especially difficult flying
> airplanes
> with performance like RV's or, worse, some of the cool airplanes
> that I fly.
> The RV flies so well and so easy that we start to believe that we
> are really
> good. That is B.S.
>
> Get this part here. Pilot skill is seldom the problem. Most
> airplanes
> crash because of attitude. Our attitude takes us to a place that our
> airplane can't get us out of, and then there is a crash.
>
> You don't believe that? Let me list some of my dead friends. Charlie
> Hillard, French Connection, Sonny Lovelace and Randy Drake (Red
> Barons)
> Jimmy Franklin, Bobby Younkin, Ian Groom, shall I continue? Does
> anyone
> think these guys were short on skill?
>
> Questioning our decision making is a good thing in aviation. This
> fighter
> pilot ego crap that we must mentally dominate my enemy by believing
> that we
> are the best in the world and no one can beat us is a great thing for
> defending the freedom of our country.
>
> We are trying to travel, have fun and live to fly another day. We
> need to
> use a Cockpit Resource Management model that goes like this:
> 1. acknowledge that we make errors.
> 2. trap the errors before they become problems.
> 3. mitigate the damage from the errors that get past step 2.
>
> Many people crash and do not change their attitudes. They can't
> even get to
> step 1. They won't admit that they make mistakes and change their
> behavior.
> They keep crashing until they are eliminated from the gene pool. The
> insurance companies will tell you that anyone who has crashed once
> is far
> more likely to crash again.
>
> I crashed my airplane because my ego was out of control and none of my
> friends took me aside to square me up. Shattering your kneecap
> squares you
> up. It changed my approach to flying. I still make mistakes, lots
> of them.
> I still wrestle to control my "fighter pilot" attitude. I try to
> accept
> counsel from my peers and offer it when I think their attitudes are
> getting
> dangerous.
>
> If we don't counsel our peers when they get out of hand, then we
> have blood
> on our hands when they get hurt.
>
> Tailwinds,
> Doug Rozendaal
>
>
The ones that amaze me are the guys who are incapable of learning
from someone else's misfortune. They have to experience it
themselves before they can learn from it. If it didn't happen to
them, they either ignore it, or find some way to convince themselves
that they are immune to a similar event. You all know the kind of
pilot I'm talking about - the guys who persist in scud running,
despite all the scud running accidents. The guys who teach
themselves how to fly formation, even though they hear about
experienced formation pilots that have accidents. The ones who do
low altitude aerobatics, etc. We need to be able to learn from other
people's mistakes. We won't live long if we have to make them all
ourselves.
The free and open exchange of stories like Ross Mickey's mishap are
vital to helping other pilots learn. Thanks Ross for telling your
story. Good luck with the rebuild.
Fly safe,
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 35
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
Ross -
I'm glad you are ok.
My RV-8 and I made our first trip to OSH together last week. The story of
my arrival started very similar to yours, except they closed the field for
the night with about 15 of us holding over the lakes, and suggested we go to
Fond du lac. We did, in one big, congested pile with no additional ATC
control. The temp Fondu du lac tower was not opened yet. It was very
crowded, and I found myself fighting the wake of the C170 (?) in front of me
on final. Fortunately, we were still fairly high and 75-80 knots, so I had
enough energy to fight it. In the end I stayed high and landed long, over
the C170 and 3 other aircraft on the first half of the runway. Anyway, I
learned from that, and your experience drives it home. We hear a lot of
advice about going into OSH and SNF, etc, but I don't remember being
reminded of the dangers of wake turbulence. Thanks for sharing the details.
Best of luck on your rebuild or next project.
-
Larry Bowen, RV-8, 119 Hrs
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey
> Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 4:09 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
> I just wanted to touch base with you all since I,
> unfortunately, am the pilot of the "plane that crashed at
> Oshkosh." I first want to thank Nels and the other
> extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out of my
> plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the
> shards of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to
> imitate a badger and dig my way out if they had not lifted
> the tail. The accounts given by Nels and Randy pretty much
> say it all. Since I am writing, however, I may as well
> emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
>
> First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a
> steeper glide path. I say "may" because I don't know if I
> would of still been rocked to the point of having my wing
> touch even then. The difference would be that the wing would
> have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only other
> way I could have avoided it would have been to go around
> after the Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final.
> This is where Nels advice is right on. I did have about
> 15-30 seconds to make a decision to go around after the
> Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
> Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
>
> After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9
> flight hours and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these
> planes!!!), I entered a holding pattern over the two lakes
> south of Ripon with 15-30 other planes. We were holding
> because the airport was closed due to the ground being so
> soggy that they could not get the planes that had already
> arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
> assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an
> extra fuel stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of
> occurrence, I slogged around the lakes for over an hour.
> Interestingly enough, I encountered slight turbulence from
> the airplane I was following about 4 times.
> Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker
> minds than mine may have picked up on these lessons. I,
> sadly, did not.
>
> When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple
> of times around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from
> Ripon. The plane in front of me broke off when a large high
> wing swooped down in front of him. That meant I was
> following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At Fiske, he
> was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
> to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable
> distance behind the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we
> got closer, I noticed a Cherokee high and to my right. I
> kept him in sight as he was flying towards Runway 9 also.
> From the controller chatter, I surmised that he had aborted
> his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
> final, the controller did sequence him in front of me
> probably because I had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
>
> The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few
> times and as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on
> the runway in front of me. I slowed as much as I could,
> staying well away from stall but this did end up shallowing
> my final approach. I have made many shallow approached
> before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
> to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
>
> The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was
> pure reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the
> stick right, which caused my left aileron to deflect
> downward. This down aileron was the first thing to hit. I
> then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
> My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the
> left side of the runway and if the conditions were dryer
> would have probably rolled out there and stopped. Since the
> ground was so soggy, my nose gear stuck in the mud and I
> slowly went head over heals.
>
> My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense
> pressure of the seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point
> for my crotch strap was a bolt through two pieces of aluminum
> angle. These two pieces of angle were bent about 3/8th of an
> inch. I believe what saved me was my 5 point Hooker Harness
> and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be replaced but
> it only deflected down about 1 inch.
>
> I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
> Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state,
> will take some time. It will take me awhile to change from
> being a flyer to a builder and every time I look at my
> airplane parts, my heart breaks.
>
> If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and
> disassembly, go to
> http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=187571891
> 09.7374528
> 9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably
> have to do some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole
> url. The disassembly and loading of the plane was only
> possible because Wally Anderson and his four housemates spent
> two mornings and two evenings of their Airventure experience
> doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of Meyers
> Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
>
> Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
> I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
>
> Ross Mickey
> N9PT (parts)
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
> Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
>
> I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH
> with my engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there
> last Sat. evening in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes
> coming in on 9 for about 15 minutes. The tower was telling
> this particular RV to "land on the numbers". He mentioned
> this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was heavy. I
> thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
> watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only)
> that this gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his
> airplane. The plane was approx.15-20 ft. high above the
> runway when the left wing dropped quickly and struck the
> runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left wing. The
> nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
> down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed
> sod for about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose
> wheel and propeller dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on
> it's back very slowly. It did not "cartwheel". The pilot was
> trapped in the plane, that was easy to tell the way it lay. I
> radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash squad. I
> unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south
> side of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side.
> I probably should not have done what I did next but I did it
> anyway. I looked at the incoming planes and saw them
> climbing. Assuming the tower had told them to go around I
> sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not want to
> see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About
> the time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there
> too. Don't know where they came from. We dove under the wing
> to see how many people were inside. The pilot (only
> passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of us lifted
> the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out
> of the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up
> and had a couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I
> was so happy to see that he wasn't seriously injured. About
> that time the "officials" got there and hurried us out of
> there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
> Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back
> to 18 to take off.
> Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the
> pilot of your plane. You need to fly it and not let the
> busyness of OSH get into your head. I feel the intensity of
> the close arrivals and intensity of the controller's voice
> had a very large part to play in this accident.
> However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
> I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list.
> It has taken almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it
> often. We are the only ones that should be flying our planes,
> not the tower.
> This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had
> broken out. I had already made my mind up as I ran across the
> runway to take some burns if it came to that. The other guys
> who showed up never hesitated for an instance before diving
> down to the broken cockpit to get that guy out of there ASAP.
> I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank them for
> being there.
> So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from
> someone who flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm
> just glad it turned out the way it did.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> "Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
> Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
>
> I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him
> directly at a restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got
> the whole story. Here's the scoop as he relayed it to us at
> dinner... he was on short final for 27 after holding for
> about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing again
> they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final.
> Spacing was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the
> exact altitude, but he got hit with some sort of down draft
> or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
> and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto
> the runway but veered to the left. When he went off the left
> edge into the very soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose
> wheel caught and he flipped over instantly. He has an AOA Pro
> and said it never screamed at him ("angle, angle, push")
> which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and not a stall.
> He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and other
> bruises and released a day or two later.
>
> He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The
> plane will likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage
> back and rebuild it.
> He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury
> and especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point
> harness). The anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
>
> Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him
> disassemble the plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop
> the engine off at Bart Lalonde's shop on the drive back to
> Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop struck, in fact he said he
> could see the bent tips still rotating in front of him as he
> rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once he gets
> back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive
> back don't expect that for a few days.
>
> The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was
> insured, whew! I have never understood why Van's doesn't
> design a crotch strap anchor into ALL the models. If you
> don't have one please consider adding it.
>
> Randy Lervold
> www.rv-3.com
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: mark phipps <skydive80020@yahoo.com>
Mickey, I have a completed and unused vertical stabilizer from a 6, you are welcome
to have it if you need it.
Mark Phipps, N242RP (Gypsy Spirit)
Ross Mickey <rmickey@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey"
I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
Ross Mickey
N9PT (parts)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nels Hanson
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
take off.
Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
them for being there.
So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
the way it did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Randy Lervold"
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
other bruises and released a day or two later.
He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
don't expect that for a few days.
The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
Message 37
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Leach" <papadaddyo@verizon.net>
Ross, very glad you are virtually unharmed. Thanks for the report, it
is good to here from the horses mouth. We need to all take advice from
these experiences.
Rick Leach
RV-10 40397
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ross Mickey
Subject: RV-List: And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am the
pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh." I first want to thank
Nels and the other extraordinary "ordinary" folks who helped me get out
of my plane. As I hung there up-side-down, trying to break the shards
of canopy out of my way, I knew that I would have to imitate a badger
and dig my way out if they had not lifted the tail. The accounts given
by Nels and Randy pretty much say it all. Since I am writing, however,
I may as well emphasize some stuff and embellish the story.
First, this accident MAY have been avoidable if I was on a steeper glide
path. I say "may" because I don't know if I would of still been rocked
to the point of having my wing touch even then. The difference would be
that the wing would have hit the pavement instead of the dirt. The only
other way I could have avoided it would have been to go around after the
Cherokee slipped in front of me on short final. This is where Nels
advice is right on. I did have about 15-30 seconds to make a decision
to go around after the Cherokee butted in and I decided to forge on.
Now, I would make a different decision. Here is the whole story.
After covering 1500 nm from Eugene, Oregon to Oshkosh in 9 flight hours
and 10.5 total hours (don't you love these planes!!!), I entered a
holding pattern over the two lakes south of Ripon with 15-30 other
planes. We were holding because the airport was closed due to the
ground being so soggy that they could not get the planes that had
already arrived off the runway and taxiways. The controller at Fiske
assured us we would be able to get in and as I had made an extra fuel
stop to ensure I had enough just for this type of occurrence, I slogged
around the lakes for over an hour. Interestingly enough, I encountered
slight turbulence from the airplane I was following about 4 times.
Since I was at 1800 feet, this was a non-event but quicker minds than
mine may have picked up on these lessons. I, sadly, did not.
When the airport reopened, I followed my lead another couple of times
around the lake until we were cleared to Fiske from Ripon. The plane in
front of me broke off when a large high wing swooped down in front of
him. That meant I was following the nut so I gave him lots of room. At
Fiske, he was vectored to Runway 36 and I was told to follow a "V" tail
to 9. Feeling relieved, I spaced myself a comfortable distance behind
the "V" tail and turned a long final. As we got closer, I noticed a
Cherokee high and to my right. I kept him in sight as he was flying
towards Runway 9 also. From the controller chatter, I surmised that he
had aborted his landing and was waiting to get sequenced in. On a short
final, the controller did sequence him in front of me probably because I
had so much cushion between me and the "V" tail.
The controller then told me to "put it on the numbers" a few times and
as I looked ahead, there were at least 4 planes on the runway in front
of me. I slowed as much as I could, staying well away from stall but
this did end up shallowing my final approach. I have made many shallow
approached before so my last good thought was that the landing was going
to be a squeaker. The number 9 was right in line and life was good.
The next 15 seconds went by very fast and anything I did was pure
reaction. The left wing dipped violently, I shoved the stick right,
which caused my left aileron to deflect downward. This down aileron was
the first thing to hit. I then saw my prop curl and stop at 10 o'clock.
My right wing tip touched briefly. I was rolling towards the left side
of the runway and if the conditions were dryer would have probably
rolled out there and stopped. Since the ground was so soggy, my nose
gear stuck in the mud and I slowly went head over heals.
My only injury was a bruised sternum from the intense pressure of the
seatbelts. As Randy said, the attach point for my crotch strap was a
bolt through two pieces of aluminum angle. These two pieces of angle
were bent about 3/8th of an inch. I believe what saved me was my 5
point Hooker Harness and Van's design. The roll bar will have to be
replaced but it only deflected down about 1 inch.
I will get enough insurance money to rebuild and I am physically ok.
Two very important matters. The third, my emotional state, will take
some time. It will take me awhile to change from being a flyer to a
builder and every time I look at my airplane parts, my heart breaks.
If you want to see some pictures of the wreckage and disassembly, go to
http://www.kodakgallery.com/BrowsePhotos.jsp?&collid=18757189109.7374528
9109.1123004869002&ieh=1123004868996&& You will probably have to do
some creative cutting and pasting to get the whole url. The disassembly
and loading of the plane was only possible because Wally Anderson and
his four housemates spent two mornings and two evenings of their
Airventure experience doing the work I could not do. Steve Meyer of
Meyers Aviation was also invaluable in assisting us.
Again, a huge thanks to all the people who helped me though this mess.
I am very grateful to them and to God for being where I am today.
Ross Mickey
N9PT (parts)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Nels Hanson <pa201950@yahoo.com>
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh? Eyewitness account
I was sitting in the grass at the approach end of "9" at OSH with my
engine off waiting for my chance to get out of there last Sat. evening
in my RV-6. I listened and watched planes coming in on 9 for about 15
minutes. The tower was telling this particular RV to "land on the
numbers". He mentioned this 2-3 times. It was busy and the traffic was
heavy. I thought this RV was coming in a little low and slow so I
watched the whole thing unfold. I feel(personal opinion only) that this
gentlemen started to let the tower "fly" his airplane. The plane was
approx.15-20 ft. high above the runway when the left wing dropped
quickly and struck the runway. The plane came down on it's gear and left
wing. The nose wheel quickly collapsed and the plane started skidding
down Runway 9 at an angle. It slid off the runway and plowed sod for
about 30-40 ft. before the combination of the nose wheel and propeller
dug in the sod. The plane flipped over on it's back very slowly. It did
not "cartwheel". The pilot was trapped in the plane, that was easy to
tell the way it lay. I radioed the tower to send the EMT's and crash
squad. I unbuckled and climbed out of my plane. I was on the south side
of the runway and the crashed RV was on the north side. I probably
should not have done what I did next but I did it anyway. I looked at
the incoming planes and saw them climbing. Assuming the tower had told
them to go around I sprinted across the runway toward the RV. I did not
want to see this plane go up in flames with someone(s)inside. About the
time I got to the plane a couple of other guys got there too. Don't know
where they came from. We dove under the wing to see how many people were
inside. The pilot (only passenger) was conscious and alert. About 3-4 of
us lifted the tail and wing while two other guys pulled the pilot out of
the plane and moved him 30-40ft. away. The pilot sat up and had a
couple of cuts and bruises but was very aware. I was so happy to see
that he wasn't seriously injured. About that time the "officials" got
there and hurried us out of there. I was glad to get back to my plane.
Of course, now the runway was closed and I had to taxi back to 18 to
take off.
Again, just my opinion, but here's the lesson: You are the pilot of
your plane. You need to fly it and not let the busyness of OSH get into
your head. I feel the intensity of the close arrivals and intensity of
the controller's voice had a very large part to play in this accident.
However, we MUST remember to keep flying the plane.
I've been waiting to see if this accident made the list. It has taken
almost a week. When I flew home I thought of it often. We are the only
ones that should be flying our planes, not the tower.
This could have been a monumental tragedy if fire had broken out. I
had already made my mind up as I ran across the runway to take some
burns if it came to that. The other guys who showed up never hesitated
for an instance before diving down to the broken cockpit to get that guy
out of there ASAP. I have no idea who they were, but I want to thank
them for being there.
So, there it is ,a very close-up eyewitness account from someone who
flies an RV and saw the whole thing unfold. I'm just glad it turned out
the way it did.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Randy Lervold" <randy@romeolima.com>
Re: And another crash at Oshkosh?
I can confirm that this was Ross Mickey. I spoke with him directly at a
restaurant on Wednesday night in OSH and got the whole story. Here's the
scoop as he relayed it to us at dinner... he was on short final for 27
after holding for about an hour over the lake. Once they started landing
again they stuffed a Cherokee in front of him on short final. Spacing
was too tight and speeds were slow. I forget the exact altitude, but he
got hit with some sort of down draft or wake turbulence at maybe 50-100'
and pancaked just short of the runway, then rolled up onto the runway
but veered to the left. When he went off the left edge into the very
soggy grass (from all the rain) the nose wheel caught and he flipped
over instantly. He has an AOA Pro and said it never screamed at him
("angle, angle, push") which is how he knew it was wake turbulence and
not a stall. He was taken to the hospital with a bruised sternum and
other bruises and released a day or two later.
He was insured and has already met with the adjusters. The plane will
likely be totaled and he plans to buy the salvage back and rebuild it.
He credits his Hooker harness with preventing serious injury and
especially the fact that he had a crotch strap (5-point harness). The
anchor for the crotch strap was seriously deformed.
Wally Anderson, also from Eugene, flew back to help him disassemble the
plane and get it back here. He'll likely drop the engine off at Bart
Lalonde's shop on the drive back to Oregon from OSH. Yes, the prop
struck, in fact he said he could see the bent tips still rotating in
front of him as he rolled up onto the runway before he tipped over. Once
he gets back perhaps he can add some detail, but due to the drive back
don't expect that for a few days.
The good news is that Ross is just fine, and also was insured, whew! I
have never understood why Van's doesn't design a crotch strap anchor
into ALL the models. If you don't have one please consider adding it.
Randy Lervold
www.rv-3.com
Message 38
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--> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
Doug Rozendaal wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Doug Rozendaal" <dougr@petroblend.com>
>
>Varsol, Stanasol, Stoddard solvent, mineral spirits, Naptha, all the same
>thing. Any auto parts store, Paint store, or Lube oil distributor
>
>Doug Rozendaal
>Lube Oil Distributor
>
snipped
This is why I never complain about off-topic posts in lists or groups.
You just never know what you'll learn.
Someone mentioned using Stoddard Solvent in a small parts cleaner a
while back & I've been wondering if I'd have to get clearance from the
Homeland Obscurationists to buy it.
Charlie
chemically challenged
do not archive
Message 39
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| Subject: | And another crash at Oshkosh? Pilots Report |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net>
The big question for Ross: is there anything WE can do to help you get bck
in the air. Hey, we can raise barns and build houses...perhaps we can pitch
in and help you with the rebuild.
Bob Collins
St. Paul
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ross Mickey" <rmickey@ix.netcom.com>
>
> I just wanted to touch base with you all since I, unfortunately, am
> the pilot of the "plane that crashed at Oshkosh."
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