---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 08/14/05: 45 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Richard Bibb) 2. 04:18 AM - Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Nic) 3. 05:29 AM - Re: VAF (LarryRobertHelming) 4. 05:49 AM - Re: Cowl Pins (Glenn Gordon) (Dale Ensing) 5. 05:50 AM - Re: VAF (Robert E. Lynch) 6. 06:15 AM - Re:Van's kits (Dale Ensing) 7. 06:17 AM - Re: VAF (Bob Collins) 8. 06:17 AM - Re: Best Portable GPS (Kevin Williams) 9. 06:25 AM - Re: VAF (Bobby Hester) 10. 06:49 AM - Re: Re:Van's kits (Bob Collins) 11. 07:11 AM - Re: VAF (Darrell Reiley) 12. 07:18 AM - Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL (John Wiegenstein) 13. 08:59 AM - Re: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 14. 08:59 AM - Mixture cable too short? (Steve Struyk) 15. 10:01 AM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Jerry Springer) 16. 10:36 AM - Re: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question (sportav8r@aol.com) 17. 10:43 AM - oil and oil temps (RVer273sb@aol.com) 18. 11:41 AM - Rivet Gun Problems (Joe Larson) 19. 11:45 AM - Re: SEM Primer (HCRV6@aol.com) 20. 11:52 AM - Re: Sealer for canopy skirts (HCRV6@aol.com) 21. 12:02 PM - Re: Rivet Gun Problems (Robert E. Lynch) 22. 12:05 PM - Re: Rivet Gun Problems (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 23. 12:07 PM - Re: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL (HCRV6@aol.com) 24. 12:15 PM - Re: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 25. 12:54 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Bob Collins) 26. 01:49 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Mickey Coggins) 27. 01:59 PM - Re:Rivet Gun Problems (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 28. 03:54 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (Bob Collins) 29. 03:54 PM - Re: Best Portable GPS () 30. 04:08 PM - Re: Rivet Gun Problems (Bill Schlatterer) 31. 06:06 PM - HS and Wing stands (Richard Leach) 32. 06:31 PM - Re: Re: Best Portable GPS (Jeff Dowling) 33. 06:41 PM - Re: HS and Wing stands (Tim Olson) 34. 08:09 PM - Aileron pushrod and wing mounting (Jeff Orear) 35. 08:44 PM - Re: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to (Ron Lee) 36. 08:58 PM - Re: Re: Best Portable GPS (Tim Bryan) 37. 09:00 PM - Re: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting (Tim Bryan) 38. 09:39 PM - Re: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting (JOHN STARN) 39. 09:43 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (JTAnon@aol.com) 40. 09:47 PM - Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Congrats Walter (Walter Tondu) 41. 10:12 PM - Canopy - How many more times? (Ron Lee) 42. 10:13 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (JTAnon@aol.com) 43. 10:35 PM - Re: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting (mark phipps) 44. 10:46 PM - Re: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! (mark phipps) 45. 11:00 PM - Canopy - Enough Already (JTAnon@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:41 AM PST US From: "Richard Bibb" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Bibb" One reason the canopies are so hard to fit is that they are not molded but are blown - in other words they each vary in size somewhat. The benefit of this approach is the optical prurity achieved at a reasonable price of production. I agree wholeheartedly that if you want replaceable matched parts go buy a production plane. But be prepared for paying something like $600 for something as generic as a throttle cable (I know because I own a Mooney and had to replace one recently). The experimental category is not so we can bypass the certification rules but for "education and recreation". I don't see the FAA changing that because there is no good way to do that and not make the certifcation rules a joke. There is not a single task in building an RV that a person cannot master if they are patient and seek out help in the areas they are not comfortable. If you just want to fly then buy a completed aircraft - period. A kit is a kit and 49% of building an airplane is a heck of a lot of work that needs to be done right - not perfect but right. If you don't have the time, patience, and at times somewhat obsessive desire to complete it do yourself a favor and don't start one. The frustration level of bulding one of these things is high at times even if you like doing it - I can't imagine doing it if I didn't really enjoy the satisfaction that comes from learning how to do it myself. I am rebuilding my RV-4 and have been amazed at how much the parts and kits have improved even on a model that has not enjoy the complete advancments the later models enjoy. My friend's RV-8 appears even more refined. One thing I have learned in building my RV is that in almost 100% of the cases where I get in a hurry I end up taking more time to complete the task due to mistakes of workmanship I'm just not happy with later. Slow down and speed up your build time. You might even come to enjoy it more. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:18:40 AM PST US From: "Nic" Subject: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! 0.37 PLING_QUERY Subject has exclamation mark and question mark --> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" Jerry S's comments were amusing and stock ! But seriously, if we all had to rate the components of our QB kits on a 1-10 scale, as and when we used them, the results would make interesting if not wholly unexpected reading. Some components would rate poorly and it is these that I would like to see improved for future builders. ( A customer satisfaction questionnaire to be returned at the end of the build ). Stormy has hit this rivet on the head ! Thousands of builders spend hours making corrections to minor parts, whether it is splitting the wing tips to straighten and rebond them, making the canopy skirt fit or countless other small but mind-numbing tasks. Clearly better design and fabrication by Van's could resolve these issues. I don't think it is whining to ask for improvements. The Van's aircraft is hardly a "made in the USA" product anymore, even the Van's coffee mugs have "made in China" written on them, and if Van's wants to stay a world beater then it needs to improve where possible, Surely Jerry can see the irony of a US design which is being built elsewhere in the world and then takes thousands of US man-hours to put right :) As for the 51% ruling, this issue should not be used as an excuse for badly made and fitting parts. By my calculations a hundred hours saved on each kit which resolved the current problems, would save enough man hours for a return flight to Saturn - during which time of course there would be plenty of opportunity for sanding and filling and ...... :) Nic "........I'm proud like a moron of all the holes I measured and drilled on my slo-bild 6A kit ten years ago, but I agree there's no sense in Van producing ill-fitting parts on his mass-production CNC tooling and welding jigs if he can do better. Extra cost should be negligible, but the time saved by thousands of builders in the field will be exponentially more than what Van invests to fix any QC issues with his kits. That minor cost to upgrade tooling becomes miniscule when spread over thousands of kits later sold. Think about it. I may have to replace a gear leg or a canopy one day, and the thought that these are not truly interchangeable parts on my airplane gives me no comfort and joy. Van could do better, and I hope he's not content to sit on his laurels, deserved though they are. -Stormy " ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:24 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: VAF --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" What do you mean. Works for me. do not archive. Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester > > What's up with vansairforce.com :-( > > -- > ------ > Surfing the web in Hopkinsville, KY > Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:49:05 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Cowl Pins (Glenn Gordon) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" Dean, I doubt if Glen Gordon is still on the list. He sold his 6 and I was told by a mutual friend at OSH that he was not flying currently. If I remember correctly he used a single SS screw into a plate nut to capture a bent short leg ,about 1/2 inch,of the pin. I got this idea from somebody up there and I think it was Glen. Dale Ensing "Glenn Gordon you still on this list? I ran across an old post from you. In that post you mention you "came up with a pretty slick way of securing the horizontal cowl pins". ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:50:54 AM PST US From: "Robert E. Lynch" Subject: Re: RV-List: VAF --> RV-List message posted by: "Robert E. Lynch" try vansairforce.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:15:53 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: RV-List: Re:Van's kits --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" I don't think it is whining to ask for improvements. Van's aircraft is hardly a "made in the USA" product anymore, and if Van's wants to stay a world beater then it needs to improve where possible. Believe it or not Van's kits have been improved considerably over the years. When I do Tech Councilor visits today I am continually impressed by how much better today's kits are vs. mine purchased in the '90s. That is not to say there is still not room for improvements. However, when I chose to build a Van's kit, the overall cost was a significant factor, along with the performance of the airplane, in my decision. Some builders ask why Van's doesn't do many the things they could do. It is not just about the 51% rule. The more the kit manufacture does the more you will pay for the kit. The home builder has choices to a degree. Do I do this myself or pay somebody to do it for me? Dale Ensing do not achieve ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:17 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: VAF --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" The Forums are on vansairforce.com. It appeared the server was down Saturday night. Looks like they've been recycled and appear to be working properly asa of Sunday. Bob St. Paul Do not archive --> RV-List message posted by: "Robert E. Lynch" --> try vansairforce.net ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:17:58 AM PST US From: "Kevin Williams" Subject: Re: RV-List: Best Portable GPS --> RV-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" Ok I'm now seriously looking at the Garmin 296. However, I have a few questions regarding the detail of the maps and terrain avoidance. How accurate is the mapping and specifically the terrain avoidance in Canada? Have they released an obstical database for Canada yet? Any other Canadian use issues I should be aware of? Also what additional hardware would I need to mount an external GPS antena? Kev ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:27 AM PST US From: Bobby Hester Subject: Re: RV-List: VAF --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester Robert E. Lynch wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Robert E. Lynch" > >try vansairforce.net > > > Yea, that's what I was trying typed question wrong. The site was down last night. Back up now. -- ------ Surfing the web in Hopkinsville, KY Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:49:49 AM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re:Van's kits --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" So far I've invested 1,139 actual manhours in the project. I've given up almost several year's worth of evenings, my children have grown while I've been pounding rivets, I've traded time with them and my wife. I've spent about $23,000-$30,000 and I haven't even ordered an engine or avionics yet. I've forced the cars out of the garage, and for much of the project I paid for it by getting up at 3 in the morning, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year and thrown newspapers on a person's doorstep for 8.5 cents. That's in rain and snow too. I knew exactly -- well, OK, not exactly -- what I was getting into when I got into homebuilding. And you know what? I'm loving it and it scares me that at the moment, I love building more than going down to the FBO, renting a Warrior and going flying. Allt hat said, even though I haven't gotten to the canopy yet and that whole scene, when I do...I'm thinking that I've more than EARNED the right to complain about a part. I suspect others have too. You don't have to drink the Kool Aid to proive yourself a REAL RV builder. (g) Bob St. Paul Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dale Ensing Subject: RV-List: Re:Van's kits --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" I don't think it is whining to ask for improvements. Van's aircraft is hardly a "made in the USA" product anymore, and if Van's wants to stay a world beater then it needs to improve where possible. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:32 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: VAF --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley I don't know about the .com but the .net was down for hours last night... Darrell Bobby Hester wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Bobby Hester What's up with vansairforce.com :-( -- ------ Surfing the web in Hopkinsville, KY Visit my RV7A site: http://www.geocities.com/hester-hoptown/RVSite/ Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A "Reiley Rocket" N622DR (reserved) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:03 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL From: "John Wiegenstein" --> RV-List message posted by: "John Wiegenstein" Apologies in advance if this is a little off topic, but . . . the RV-6 and I have a VFR trip planned for mid-October, from Seattle to Dauphin Island, AL (just outside Mobile) for a family reunion. I'm familiar with the routing from Seattle over the Rockies into Montana, and from there it looks like its easy to plan a fairly straight shot down to the Mobile area. But since looks can be deceiving, I would appreciate off-list advice from anyone with tips on weather to be expected, good airports to stop at, things to look out for, etc. between Montana and Mobile. I am planning on taking 3 days each way, though one could apparently do it in 2 long (6+ hr.) days. TIA - do not archive John Wiegenstein Hansville, WA RV-6 N727JW - 70 hrs ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:08 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Hi John. Looks like u are planning a fun time. Can't help u with routing but in case u are not aware, AIRNAV.COM will be a BIG help on fuel prices. I use it for the RV and the Corp. Citation. A couple of places that try to maintain competitive fuel prices in our part of the country are MEI, 23M & 2R5. Check them out. They may be out of your way depending on the route. If u get time I would appreciate any routing & advice u could share with me. Some of us are planning a trip to Van's homecoming in 2006. We are based in Alabama. Would like to go out the southern route and return the northern route. Make lots of fun stops out and back. If u run across and good places on your trip please pass them on. Hope u have a safe, fun flight. Take care. Regards, Doug Preston RV7 N731RV BHM ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:08 AM PST US From: "Steve Struyk" Subject: RV-List: Mixture cable too short? --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Struyk" I started the engine yesterday for the first time. Big event, and it went pretty well. I knew before the start that my mixture arm was not quite making it to the idle cutoff stop but that was a compromise I had to make in order to reach the full rich stop. I would say the idle stop was short by about 1/8 inch, just enough to cause the engine to continue to run with the mixture lever off. Prior to the start, and months ago while rigging the control cables I spent hours trying to adjust the cable/rod ends to achieve full travel to both stops but in the end had to compromise. It appears that the cable, or maybe the quadrant, does not have enough travel to accomplish both. I've been in the archives and have seen similar problems but no clues as to the fix. My thoughts are to perhaps move the attach point up on the mixture lever (Van's deluxe quadrant, and Cable too), thus providing more travel for any given lever movement and hopefully attain the little extra needed to hit both stops. I realize this fix will only work if the quadrant is the problem. But what if it's the cable that does not have the necessary travel? Your thoughts, comments, and suggestions please. Steve Struyk RV-8, N842S St. Charles, MO 90% done....90% to go! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:56 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Nic wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" > >Jerry S's comments were amusing and stock ! > > > "Amusing and stock" Must be a language thing? >But seriously, if we all had to rate the components of our QB kits on a 1-10 >scale, as and when we used them, the results would make interesting if not >wholly unexpected reading. > I think you would be surprised at how high they rated specially by those that had built early slow build kits. > Some components would rate poorly and it is these >that I would like to see improved for future builders. ( A customer >satisfaction questionnaire to be returned at the end of the build ). > >Stormy has hit this rivet on the head ! > >Thousands of builders spend hours making corrections to minor parts, whether >it is splitting the wing tips to straighten and rebond them, making the >canopy skirt fit or countless other small but mind-numbing tasks. Clearly >better design and fabrication by Van's could resolve these issues. > >I don't think it is whining to ask for improvements. The Van's aircraft is >hardly a "made in the USA" product anymore, even the Van's coffee mugs have >"made in China" written on them, and if Van's wants to stay a world beater >then it needs to improve where possible, > > > That is pretty funny, If he wants to stay a world leader he keeps doing just what he is doing that has made him a world leader in the homebuilt kit market. >Surely Jerry can see the irony of a US design which is being built elsewhere >in the world and then takes thousands of US man-hours to put right :) > > > I guess I grew up to be a doer not a whiner. I understand it is a homebuilt aircraft, I built mine for the shear joy of learning how to build an aircraft and then flying my creation. >As for the 51% ruling, this issue should not be used as an excuse for badly >made and fitting parts. By my calculations a hundred hours saved on each kit >which resolved the current problems, would save enough man hours for a >return flight to Saturn - during which time of course there would be plenty >of opportunity for sanding and filling and ...... :) > >Nic > > > Maybe you should spend more time building and not so much time doing silly calculations. :-) Everyone is entitled to their opinions and these are mine and apparently those of the many emails I have received. Is there complaints, of course there is but over all you get a bargain buying and building a Van's RV kit. There is not a better one in the world for an affordable price that has the performance an RV does. Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:36:13 AM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Not at all, Jerry. This is technical info, straight from the source, of interest to more than just me. If anyone objects, I'll take the heat :-) -Stormy -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Hansen Subject: RE: RV-List: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question I don?t mind if you post it. I just don?t like to butt in to a non-commercial list with comments that can seem self serving?. Best regards, Jerry From: sportav8r@aol.com [mailto:sportav8r@aol.com] Subject: Re: RV-List: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question Thanks, Jerry. That does make me feel much better. Do you mind if I pass your reply on to the list, for general enlightenment? -Bill Boyd / "Stormy" -----Original Message----- From: Jerry Hansen Subject: RE: RV-List: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question (Private reply) Stormy, you will seldom notice the difference between a once-per-second update rate and a once-every-two-second update rate. On a normal multi-waypoint flight, the only place you "might" be able to tell a difference is at the waypoint. If you assume that you get a GPS update JUST before you arrive at the waypoint, and then overfly it, the GPS wouldn't tell the plane that you had arrived for two seconds, instead of one second. Therefore, you would get a slightly longer overshoot before the plane starts turning toward the next waypoint. Other than that, I doubt you'll see much difference. Best Regards, Jerry Hansen Trio Avionics http://www.trioavionics.com Phone - 619-448-4619 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Garmin GPS / Trio EZ-Pilot question --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Stormy's hunting a newer GPS to drive his Trio A/P installation, and wondering two things about NMEA outputs: The GPSmap 396 online owner's manual says the unit can be programmed for "fast" one-second output intervals; the 296's manual does not mention this particualr capability. Any 296 users out there know if your unit will run at the one-second output rate, or is 2 seconds all she'll do? Secondly, is there that much of a drawback to having two-second GPS data updates as far as tracking the flight plan with the EZ-Pilot? I know that one second updates are preferred (and standard for panel-mount GPS's), but wondering how much practical difference has been noticed in the air. If this is a real issue, I might have to spring for the 396, which is truly more $$$ than I want to spend right now; if not, I'd be happy with the 296. Currently using an Airmap 500- nice GPS, but too tiny for my presbyopic eyes since I hit the big 4-9 :-) Thanks for the input, gang. -Stormy ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:43:01 AM PST US From: RVer273sb@aol.com Subject: RV-List: oil and oil temps --> RV-List message posted by: RVer273sb@aol.com List members, Passing on this info on aeroshell 15/50 oil. There is no definitive answer to your question as different engines will put different thermal stress on the oil. For example, a turbocharged engine will stress the oil more than a non-turbo engine, purely because the turbine bearing chamber runs at such a high temperature. Whilst not all of the oil supply is passed through this bearing, the temperatures within it are much higher than many other parts of the engine and so can stress the oil. Of course by the time the oil has drained to the sump and cooled, the bulk oil temperature that you are measuring on the gauge on the input oil way may not be any different to a non-turbo engine. This said, a semi-synthetic oil will perform better in high temperature applications than pure mineral formulations. Semi Synthetic oils have much better thermal stability and so are able to withstand higher oil temperatures than mineral oils. They also oxidise at a much slower rate, so do not degrade as quickly i.e. they are a better lubricant for longer, especially in applications where there is higher than normal heat exposure. Additionally, the higher specific heat capacity of synthetic oils means that synthetic-based oils such as AeroShell Oil W 15W-50 will also run at a lower oil temperature than mineral-based formulations - typically we see a reduction in oil temp of about 10 deg F when changing to AeroShell Oil W 15W-50. As long as you understand that there are some caveats on the data (as the information is engine-specific to some degree) I do have some data that may go some way to answer your question. Some time ago we conducted some testing in a (non turbo) bench test engine known as an L-38 engine test. This was done at elevated max oil temperature: 143 deg C (290 deg F). In order to make this more applicable to what you may be familiar with, our own data has shown that the difference between the max oil temperature and engine gauge temp is about 50 deg F in a non-turbo engine, so this max bulk oil temp equates to a gauge temp of around 240 deg F. In this chart we measure oxidation in the oil indirectly my looking at the oil's acid content; organic acids are a by-product of oxidation and measuring the Total Acid Number is the usual way of quantifying oxidation in an oil. You can see that all of the oils tested show few signs of oxidation in the initial stages of this test. This is a sign that the anti-oxidant additives are working within the oils. As soon as the anti-oxidant package is depleted, you can see the base oil oxidation profile. Interestingly the mineral-based multigrades (20W-50 and 25W-60) oxidise at a rapid rate as they use mineral base oils that are quite light; you will notice that once the anti-oxidant has run out in the AeroShell Oil W100, the heavier base oil oxidises at a slower rate. The semi-synthetic AeroShell Oil W 15W-50 dos not start to oxidise until after the 40 hour point. This gives you indication that, in a normally aspirated engine, AeroShell Oil W 15W-50 is performing adequately at a gauge temperature of 240 deg F. However my advice would be that, if operating at these elevated temperatures, it would be wise to change the oil out at 25 hour intervals rather than 50. By doing this we would ensure that we are operating within the capabilities of the oil's anti-oxidant package and by changing to new oil you are reducing the stress on the base oils. I hope that this goes some way to answering your question, but if you need anything further then please do not hesitate to contact me again direct. Best regards Rob Midgley Global Technical Manager, General Aviation Tel: +44 (0)161 499 8743 Fax: 4144 Other Tel: +44 (0)7836 604935 Mobile Email: robert.midgley@shell.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:21 AM PST US From: Joe Larson Subject: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson I have a 2x rivet gun that's sat unused for several years. Now it's not working very well. If I press hard against the rivet, it won't fire, although air is moving through it. If I back off the pressure a bit before pulling the trigger, it fires, but not very well, and I'd have rivets getting pushed out of their holes by the bucking bar by releasing the pressure on the rivet. I've run some oil through it, although maybe I need to run a lot more through (perhaps practically drenching it) or maybe some other fluid? I don't really know how these things work on the inside. I'm not sure how to take it apart, and don't want to break it through incorrect disassembly. Any suggestions? -Joe ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:39 AM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: SEM Primer --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 8/13/05 4:52:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jdavis213899@comcast.net writes: > < been very pleased with the product.>> I used Veri Prime (sp?) on my wings and empennage, then switched to SEM primer in the rattle cans when I built the fuselage of my slooow build -6. I have found that there is no difference as far a durability. FWIW, both are readily removed with alcohol. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 115 hours ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:16 AM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Sealer for canopy skirts --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 8/13/05 8:08:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, bhester@hopkinsville.net writes: > What is Lexel and what asle would it be on Lexel is a clear sealant adhesive that does not attack plexi like most common silicone adhesives seem to do. The stores that carry it usually seem to stock it with the silicones and other caulking materials. I used it and it worked fine. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 115 hours ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:23 PM PST US From: "Robert E. Lynch" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: "Robert E. Lynch" Joe Unplug it, load it with WD-40 orlacquer thinner and let it set for 30 min. Plug it in and hold it on something and pull the trigger. If tha don't work, the barrel un-screws, there is only two partsin there. a plungger and a flutter disc. you can not hurt it by taking it apart. I've had hundreds apart. Use to be a tool dealer. Bob ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:04 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" Sounds like it may have rusted up a bit on the inside and is now sticking. Probably will need a rebuild. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Wing Ribs Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Joe Larson Subject: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson I have a 2x rivet gun that's sat unused for several years. Now it's not working very well. If I press hard against the rivet, it won't fire, although air is moving through it. If I back off the pressure a bit before pulling the trigger, it fires, but not very well, and I'd have rivets getting pushed out of their holes by the bucking bar by releasing the pressure on the rivet. I've run some oil through it, although maybe I need to run a lot more through (perhaps practically drenching it) or maybe some other fluid? I don't really know how these things work on the inside. I'm not sure how to take it apart, and don't want to break it through incorrect disassembly. Any suggestions? -Joe ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:07:18 PM PST US From: HCRV6@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL --> RV-List message posted by: HCRV6@aol.com In a message dated 8/14/05 9:00:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time, DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com writes: > If u get time would appreciate any routing & advice u could share with me. > Some of us are planning a trip to Van's homecoming in 2006. We are based in > Alabama. > Okay John, this sound like your cue to share the info you gather with the list. As I just told you in my offline response, I'm planning a west to east trip similar to yours next year. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 115 hours ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:12 PM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com I would love to see feedback from the group regarding fun places & friendly stops for fuel, food & overnights around the country. We could sure be a big help to each other. Regards, Doug Preston RV7 N731RV DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:54:32 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" Just checking. Are all the builders currently in the "I'm a REAL builder" debate (hey it's a joke), QB kit builders are....ummm... REAL builders? (that's a joke too). Time to lighten it up. Do not archive. B ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:18 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > Just checking. Are all the builders currently in the "I'm a REAL builder" > debate (hey it's a joke), QB kit builders are....ummm... REAL builders? > (that's a joke too). > > Time to lighten it up. I'm the first to admit I'm a "slacker builder". I've got a QB, and if the canopy skirt fit without a lot of work, and the kit came with perfect wheel pant fairings, and intersection fairings, I would not mind at all. Anyway, we all know "real builders" don't use those fiberglass parts, they use their English wheel to form them out of aluminum sheet. :-) -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:59:17 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re:Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com Get a quart of "Marvel Mystery Oil" from Wal-Mart. Flood it well and let it soak overnight. Then use line pressure when you try it again. I always MMO in my air tools. I put at least a teaspoon full in the rivet gun often and if unused for awhile do that . Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:40 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" //Anyway, we all know "real builders" don't use those fiberglass parts, they use their English wheel to form them out of aluminum sheet. :-) I was making the spacers for the 711 bulkheads today (flipped the canoe yesterday! Whoo hoo!). First I chewed the .125 to get it into approximate shape (real builders don't use band saws), then I filed it with a, get this, file ...to get closer to perfect.. And finally to deburr and smooth things, I used some quartz stone I mined myself and polished it smooth. Really. B Do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:41 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS --> RV-List message posted by: Best portable GPS? Can't tell you with that info, but if cost is no object the new Garmin 396 is top of current top of the heap. http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/ Garmin is the recognized leader in portable GPS and has many models to choose from: http://www.garmin.com/aviation/products.html#portable Other dedicated GPS that are good (to name a few): http://www.lowrance.com/Aviation/default.asp http://www.avmapnavigation.com/ (If you are mounting it on a yoke (like on a Cessna) Vs. a more permanent panel installation like in an experimental, the big displays will get in your way more than help. You don't need a real large screen to get decent utility out of the unit. The other TYPE of GPS are the PDA (iPaq) based GPS systems Vs. the dedicated type GPS systems above. The PDA based units have pros and cons, I have used both dedicated (like Garmin) and the PDA based GPS, I prefer the dedicated units for ease of use. Anywheremap is the king of this hill of the PDA (one was for sale used real cheap on the VansAirforce classifieds for the cost of just a PDA. Why? I don't know but some don't care for the touch screen and smaller size screen.) http://www.controlvision.com/ Other PDA based aviation GPS software makers are: http://www.airgator.com/ http://www.pcavionics.com/custserv/index.jsp http://www.navzilla.com/ http://www.pocketfms.com/ If you don't have a PDA now or have used one before I would not suggest going this route. However the long term ownership of a PDA based system might me cheaper because of update cost. The nice thing about the updates (which they charge for but tends to be cheaper than Garmin) is some vendors provide daily update of special use airspace and Temp Flt Restrictions (TFR) free to down from the web. However for VFR I only updated my Garmin GPS every year or so and used paper to back it up (Air Chart Systems). As far as TRF the info is free on the web anyway to check before flight, which is a pretty obvious thing to do. Good Luck. Whether a $500 GPS or a $3000 portable GPS they all do basically the same important functions. The high end features, terrain and weather are in the upper priced units and Garmin 396 would be my choice if money was no limit. If I did not care for weather I would look at the other barnds which tend to be less expensive and still have great features. Also remember to get weather there is a monthly subscription like satellite radio or TV. In fact the weather is provided by XM radio. This could get expensive if you are not going to use it. George Kevin Williams wrote: > >I would like feedback on what portable GPS you feel is the best out there as >of today or very soon to be released? I'm looking at buying a good one to go >along with a plane purchase. > >Im looking for most of the bells and whistles. Color contoured map, and a >simulated HSI (horizontal situational indicator) would be great. > >Kevin > >>Match: #13 Message: #132655 >>Date: Aug 13, 2005 >>From: Hal Rozema >>Subject: Re: Best Portable GPS >> >>I'm have both their ANYWHERE MAP http://www.controlvision.com/ and >>ATTITUDE INDICATOR (HSI) http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx >>Zenith CH701 VSTOL w/Jabiru 3300 >>Hal Rozema >>see ThePlaneFolks.Net click on Construction Gallery >>Phoenix, AZ --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:08:21 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" If you haven't been running oil through it on a regular basis, it's probably just blowing air past the seals. Before you disassemble, I would run a lot of oil through it. Care and feeding,....usually 4-5 drops of Marvel every time you use it is fine. I don't use an oiler because I don't want oil contaminating my air lines. Bill S Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Joe Larson Subject: RV-List: Rivet Gun Problems --> RV-List message posted by: Joe Larson I have a 2x rivet gun that's sat unused for several years. Now it's not working very well. If I press hard against the rivet, it won't fire, although air is moving through it. If I back off the pressure a bit before pulling the trigger, it fires, but not very well, and I'd have rivets getting pushed out of their holes by the bucking bar by releasing the pressure on the rivet. I've run some oil through it, although maybe I need to run a lot more through (perhaps practically drenching it) or maybe some other fluid? I don't really know how these things work on the inside. I'm not sure how to take it apart, and don't want to break it through incorrect disassembly. Any suggestions? -Joe ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:15 PM PST US From: "Richard Leach" Subject: RV-List: HS and Wing stands --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Leach" Does anyone have plans or dimensions of stands for holding the horizontal stab and the wings for the -10? Rick Leach 40397 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:17 PM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Check out the flight cheetah. It doesnt look as nice as the garmin but I think it has more to offer... Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS > --> RV-List message posted by: > > Best portable GPS? > > Can't tell you with that info, but if cost is no object the new Garmin 396 > is top of current top of the heap. > http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/ > > > Garmin is the recognized leader in portable GPS and has many models to > choose from: > http://www.garmin.com/aviation/products.html#portable > > > Other dedicated GPS that are good (to name a few): > http://www.lowrance.com/Aviation/default.asp > http://www.avmapnavigation.com/ > > (If you are mounting it on a yoke (like on a Cessna) Vs. a more permanent > panel installation like in an experimental, the big displays will get in > your way more than help. You don't need a real large screen to get decent > utility out of the unit. > > > The other TYPE of GPS are the PDA (iPaq) based GPS systems Vs. the > dedicated type GPS systems above. The PDA based units have pros and cons, > I have used both dedicated (like Garmin) and the PDA based GPS, I prefer > the dedicated units for ease of use. > > Anywheremap is the king of this hill of the PDA (one was for sale used > real cheap on the VansAirforce classifieds for the cost of just a PDA. > Why? I don't know but some don't care for the touch screen and smaller > size screen.) http://www.controlvision.com/ > > Other PDA based aviation GPS software makers are: > http://www.airgator.com/ > http://www.pcavionics.com/custserv/index.jsp > http://www.navzilla.com/ > http://www.pocketfms.com/ > > If you don't have a PDA now or have used one before I would not suggest > going this route. However the long term ownership of a PDA based system > might me cheaper because of update cost. The nice thing about the updates > (which they charge for but tends to be cheaper than Garmin) is some > vendors provide daily update of special use airspace and Temp Flt > Restrictions (TFR) free to down from the web. However for VFR I only > updated my Garmin GPS every year or so and used paper to back it up (Air > Chart Systems). As far as TRF the info is free on the web anyway to check > before flight, which is a pretty obvious thing to do. > > > Good Luck. > > Whether a $500 GPS or a $3000 portable GPS they all do basically the same > important functions. The high end features, terrain and weather are in the > upper priced units and Garmin 396 would be my choice if money was no > limit. If I did not care for weather I would look at the other barnds > which tend to be less expensive and still have great features. Also > remember to get weather there is a monthly subscription like satellite > radio or TV. In fact the weather is provided by XM radio. This could get > expensive if you are not going to use it. > > George > > > Kevin Williams wrote: >> >>I would like feedback on what portable GPS you feel is the best out there >>as >>of today or very soon to be released? I'm looking at buying a good one to >>go >>along with a plane purchase. >> >>Im looking for most of the bells and whistles. Color contoured map, and a >>simulated HSI (horizontal situational indicator) would be great. >> >>Kevin >> >>>Match: #13 Message: #132655 >>>Date: Aug 13, 2005 >>>From: Hal Rozema >>>Subject: Re: Best Portable GPS >>> >>>I'm have both their ANYWHERE MAP http://www.controlvision.com/ and >>>ATTITUDE INDICATOR (HSI) http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx >>>Zenith CH701 VSTOL w/Jabiru 3300 >>>Hal Rozema >>>see ThePlaneFolks.Net click on Construction Gallery >>>Phoenix, AZ > > > --------------------------------- > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:44 PM PST US From: Tim Olson Subject: Re: RV-List: HS and Wing stands --> RV-List message posted by: Tim Olson Hi Rick, This might not be what you want, since it doesn't take care of the HS, but it might work well for the wings for you: http://www.myrv10.com/tips/wingtips.html See the bottom tip from Larry Rosen. Also, your question might be best addressed on the RV10-List instead of the generic RV-List... I see you sent this to owner-rv10-list-server, but it didn't make it to the RV10-List proper. Might want to verifiy your address book. Tim Tim Olson -- RV-10 #40170 Current project: Doors/Windows DO NOT ARCHIVE Richard Leach wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard Leach" > > Does anyone have plans or dimensions of stands for holding the > horizontal stab and the wings for the -10? > > Rick Leach > 40397 > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:47 PM PST US From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" List: Getting real close to getting my wings on for the last time. Regarding the aileron pushrod......From control column to the bellcrank. Is it necessary to have that installed in the wing when you mount the wings? My plan has been to get the wings mounted and then make up my pushrods and fish them through the wing via the lightening holes. I figure that once I get them to the bellcrank, I can finish getting them into the fuselage by grabbing them at the aileron bellcrank access. Any suggestions? Am I slow at getting this thing done, or what!!? Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P (reserved) Mounting wings real soon Peshtigo, WI ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:54 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Mobile, AL@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Advice on Flight Plan from Seattle, WA to Mobile, AL --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee Mobile, AL Devil's Tower Wyoming Mount Rushmore SD Leadville CO (Highest airport in US) Liberal Air Museum KS (KLBL) Get O2 and fly high (15,500 or higher) Do Not Archive Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:30 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Dont forget flight soft and flight soft express. Runs on the ipaq as well. I have been using the flight planning software for several years and like it alot. Now they offer the express for the pda for the same yearly fee. 108 00. http://www.rmstek.com Tim -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Dowling Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Check out the flight cheetah. It doesnt look as nice as the garmin but I think it has more to offer... Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Best Portable GPS > --> RV-List message posted by: > > Best portable GPS? > > Can't tell you with that info, but if cost is no object the new Garmin 396 > is top of current top of the heap. > http://www.garmin.com/products/gpsmap396/ > > > Garmin is the recognized leader in portable GPS and has many models to > choose from: > http://www.garmin.com/aviation/products.html#portable > > > Other dedicated GPS that are good (to name a few): > http://www.lowrance.com/Aviation/default.asp > http://www.avmapnavigation.com/ > > (If you are mounting it on a yoke (like on a Cessna) Vs. a more permanent > panel installation like in an experimental, the big displays will get in > your way more than help. You don't need a real large screen to get decent > utility out of the unit. > > > The other TYPE of GPS are the PDA (iPaq) based GPS systems Vs. the > dedicated type GPS systems above. The PDA based units have pros and cons, > I have used both dedicated (like Garmin) and the PDA based GPS, I prefer > the dedicated units for ease of use. > > Anywheremap is the king of this hill of the PDA (one was for sale used > real cheap on the VansAirforce classifieds for the cost of just a PDA. > Why? I don't know but some don't care for the touch screen and smaller > size screen.) http://www.controlvision.com/ > > Other PDA based aviation GPS software makers are: > http://www.airgator.com/ > http://www.pcavionics.com/custserv/index.jsp > http://www.navzilla.com/ > http://www.pocketfms.com/ > > If you don't have a PDA now or have used one before I would not suggest > going this route. However the long term ownership of a PDA based system > might me cheaper because of update cost. The nice thing about the updates > (which they charge for but tends to be cheaper than Garmin) is some > vendors provide daily update of special use airspace and Temp Flt > Restrictions (TFR) free to down from the web. However for VFR I only > updated my Garmin GPS every year or so and used paper to back it up (Air > Chart Systems). As far as TRF the info is free on the web anyway to check > before flight, which is a pretty obvious thing to do. > > > Good Luck. > > Whether a $500 GPS or a $3000 portable GPS they all do basically the same > important functions. The high end features, terrain and weather are in the > upper priced units and Garmin 396 would be my choice if money was no > limit. If I did not care for weather I would look at the other barnds > which tend to be less expensive and still have great features. Also > remember to get weather there is a monthly subscription like satellite > radio or TV. In fact the weather is provided by XM radio. This could get > expensive if you are not going to use it. > > George > > > Kevin Williams wrote: >> >>I would like feedback on what portable GPS you feel is the best out there >>as >>of today or very soon to be released? I'm looking at buying a good one to >>go >>along with a plane purchase. >> >>Im looking for most of the bells and whistles. Color contoured map, and a >>simulated HSI (horizontal situational indicator) would be great. >> >>Kevin >> >>>Match: #13 Message: #132655 >>>Date: Aug 13, 2005 >>>From: Hal Rozema >>>Subject: Re: Best Portable GPS >>> >>>I'm have both their ANYWHERE MAP http://www.controlvision.com/ and >>>ATTITUDE INDICATOR (HSI) http://www.anywheremap.com/pages/Section_AI.aspx >>>Zenith CH701 VSTOL w/Jabiru 3300 >>>Hal Rozema >>>see ThePlaneFolks.Net click on Construction Gallery >>>Phoenix, AZ > > > --------------------------------- > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:00:08 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" You can put them in through the ends like you suggest. Works fine. Tim RV-6 Did it that way when I test fit my wings. -------Original Message------- From: Jeff Orear Subject: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" List: Getting real close to getting my wings on for the last time. Regarding the aileron pushrod......From control column to the bellcrank. Is it necessary to have that installed in the wing when you mount the wings? My plan has been to get the wings mounted and then make up my pushrods and fish them through the wing via the lightening holes. I figure that once I get them to the bellcrank, I can finish getting them into the fuselage by grabbing them at the aileron bellcrank access. Any suggestions? Am I slow at getting this thing done, or what!!? Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P (reserved) Mounting wings real soon Peshtigo, WI ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:25 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" We fabricated ours early in the process and "installed" during one of the times we had the wings in position. Do note "one of the times". We had to cut & fit the fuselage sides for the final fit(s). DO NOT install all the bolts & nuts until you plan on leaving them (the wings) on. HRII 561FS KABONG Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Orear" Subject: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" > Getting real close to getting my wings on for the last time. Regarding > the aileron pushrod> > Any suggestions? ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 09:43:02 PM PST US From: JTAnon@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com OK, I started this whole thread as a joke, and trying to relieve my frustration, but really .... ... Now I'm on a rant! The reason I picked Vans was because it is the best kit out there in so, so many ways. Where else (certified or not) can you get a plane that will fly like this at this cost? Where else can you find such a clear builders manual aided by readily available tech support? (Thank you Tom Green et al for your patience with an idiot like me.) BUT!!!... Right from the outset I realized that I was not one of these guys that builds the first one then suffers from "builders withdrawal" and immediately starts building another. I DO NOT enjoy the building process. It's a means to an end for me. I will never do this again. I just want to fly the thing, and I want it to be right when I do, There is a certain satisfaction from following the (usually) clear directions, taking the time to understand the (usually) accurate drawings (the biggest aggregate time in my builder's log will be the looking at the drawings, head scratching process. OK, my problem, my bad.), lining up the holes, being precise, riveting the thing and finally saying, "Wow! I built a rudder, and it's a real quality job, thank you, thank you Vans for your design and the technical support you provide to newbies like me." Tedium and patience is part of the process to get it right, and you start to think, "OK, I can do this, I can build an airframe if I just follow directions." But then you run into things like this (the canopy) and all good will goes out the window. Frustration doesn't need to be a part of the process if it can be avoided. I'm no engineer, but I'm reasonably intelligent, so can somebody tell me why Vans couldn't put the welded canopy frame (and roll bar) in some kind of factory jig to make it fit the rest of the airframe? I can visualize such an apparatus but I have neither the skill, means, nor would it be practical for me to build such a jig for a "one time" application. If you can match drill skins and ribs surely you can match drill this section too. Just tell me what it costs and I'll pay it. Right in Section 9 (Fitting the Canopy) page 1 of the manual it says this can be "... one of the most disappointing, gumption-robbing experiences a homebuilder can have." Got that right! Just can't wait until I get to (Vans words) "The black art" of fiberglass. Why is it that several guys are making a buck with fairings better than what Vans supplies? Better yet, what a joy will wiring this sucker be? Why can't Vans recommend a typical instrument panel and supply the components for the same instead of me putting out $5K for someone to do this part? A while back in the RV ator Van himself questioned why he had sold xx,xxx thousand empenage kits when there were only x,xxx thousand flying. He said, "What happened to the other x,xxx thousand?" You want my answer to date? The canopy! No skill one has acquired thus far in the process prepares you for this mess. Is it possible to leave the damn thing off and just fly with goggles? Hello Vans! Fix it! Let me do my 51% somewhere else! There must be other builders like me! Please don't flame me. It would just add to my frustration at this point. John McD (RV7A - @# %$ Canopy - ARRGGHAAA) Don't care if you archive or not, but please, somebody at Vans read this!!! Rant over. Tomorrow is another day. Maybe the elves will finish the canopy while I sleep. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:55 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu RV7and7A@yahoogroups.com Subject: RV-List: Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] Congrats Walter --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 08/13 10:27, Dan Checkoway wrote: > Just wanted to extend a big congratulations to Walter Tondu, who flew his > RV-7A for the first time today at Chino, CA. Nicely done!!! > > )_( Dan > RV-7 N714D > http://www.rvproject.com Thanks Dan, Just a note to all who participated, "Thank You" very much. It was a very memorable experience. One that will never be forgotten. Notes on the first flight here. http://www.rv7-a.com/phase_1.htm#First%20Flight -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:19 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee You need to go for a ride. Where do you live so someone can give you a short respite from your current anguish. Ron Lee do not archive ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:32 PM PST US From: JTAnon@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com Wow Jerry. Give me a break. I've seen your posts before, some informative, some helpful, some opinionated, some potentially offensive..... Guess I should have known better and should have read all the responses before I fired off a reply to the first post I read. (And probably before Miller Time which I am well into at this point after yet another day of wrestling with this frame in 97 degree heat.) I was just so relieved to find at least one other builder who agrees with me that I needed to continue to vent. Please don't characterize my post as whining. If some want to do the slow build; Hell, if some want to smelt their own aluminum, God bless. That's not me. No, I don't want Vans to come build the plane for me. In my area of expertise I did great in my life. But I wouldn't expect that somebody new to my field would understand all the nuance of what I know after a lifetime in the field. In fact, in my area (teacher) my main task is to show the new student the joy of what I love, and help them to gain skills. To a really great teacher challenge is part of the process, frustration never is. After obsessing over every rivet and measurement in the emp kit I ordered the quickbuild because I recognized my limitations both in skill and desire to have this plane. All I'm saying is that this stage is (maybe) needlessly frustrating. Just asking Van to give me the option to ease my pain and get this thing flying. John McD (RV7A - canopy - duly chastised by the purist(s) ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:55 PM PST US From: mark phipps Subject: Re: RV-List: Aileron pushrod and wing mounting --> RV-List message posted by: mark phipps Hi Jeff, We have talked on here before, I was only a few months in front of you. Leave your wingtips off and feed your pushrods through the wings to the aileron bellcrank and then feed to the fuselage from there, works great. Mark Phipps, N242RP, Gypsy Spirit. 11 hours of flight time so far, flies great. Jeff Orear wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" List: Getting real close to getting my wings on for the last time. Regarding the aileron pushrod......From control column to the bellcrank. Is it necessary to have that installed in the wing when you mount the wings? My plan has been to get the wings mounted and then make up my pushrods and fish them through the wing via the lightening holes. I figure that once I get them to the bellcrank, I can finish getting them into the fuselage by grabbing them at the aileron bellcrank access. Any suggestions? Am I slow at getting this thing done, or what!!? Regards, Jeff Orear RV6A N782P (reserved) Mounting wings real soon Peshtigo, WI --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:11 PM PST US From: mark phipps Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy - How many more times? ... I agree !! --> RV-List message posted by: mark phipps John, Ok breathe, you are going through what we all went through. Take your time and relax and expext a couple a months for a good canopy fit. Don't, please fall into the category that says, I saw it on the flight line so it must be okay. I redid my rear canopy skirts for about 2 months including buying a metal bender. In the end it is little to ask for a proffesional looking job. Remember, every time you exit your aircraft you will look at it and know everyone else is as well. Take your time, your gonna fly this bird for a lotta years, remember they call em " Experimental"TAnon@aol.com wrote: Mark Phipps, N242RP, RV6A --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com OK, I started this whole thread as a joke, and trying to relieve my frustration, but really .... ... Now I'm on a rant! The reason I picked Vans was because it is the best kit out there in so, so many ways. Where else (certified or not) can you get a plane that will fly like this at this cost? Where else can you find such a clear builders manual aided by readily available tech support? (Thank you Tom Green et al for your patience with an idiot like me.) BUT!!!... Right from the outset I realized that I was not one of these guys that builds the first one then suffers from "builders withdrawal" and immediately starts building another. I DO NOT enjoy the building process. It's a means to an end for me. I will never do this again. I just want to fly the thing, and I want it to be right when I do, There is a certain satisfaction from following the (usually) clear directions, taking the time to understand the (usually) accurate drawings (the biggest aggregate time in my builder's log will be the looking at the drawings, head scratching process. OK, my problem, my bad.), lining up the holes, being precise, riveting the thing and finally saying, "Wow! I built a rudder, and it's a real quality job, thank you, thank you Vans for your design and the technical support you provide to newbies like me." Tedium and patience is part of the process to get it right, and you start to think, "OK, I can do this, I can build an airframe if I just follow directions." But then you run into things like this (the canopy) and all good will goes out the window. Frustration doesn't need to be a part of the process if it can be avoided. I'm no engineer, but I'm reasonably intelligent, so can somebody tell me why Vans couldn't put the welded canopy frame (and roll bar) in some kind of factory jig to make it fit the rest of the airframe? I can visualize such an apparatus but I have neither the skill, means, nor would it be practical for me to build such a jig for a "one time" application. If you can match drill skins and ribs surely you can match drill this section too. Just tell me what it costs and I'll pay it. Right in Section 9 (Fitting the Canopy) page 1 of the manual it says this can be "... one of the most disappointing, gumption-robbing experiences a homebuilder can have." Got that right! Just can't wait until I get to (Vans words) "The black art" of fiberglass. Why is it that several guys are making a buck with fairings better than what Vans supplies? Better yet, what a joy will wiring this sucker be? Why can't Vans recommend a typical instrument panel and supply the components for the same instead of me putting out $5K for someone to do this part? A while back in the RV ator Van himself questioned why he had sold xx,xxx thousand empenage kits when there were only x,xxx thousand flying. He said, "What happened to the other x,xxx thousand?" You want my answer to date? The canopy! No skill one has acquired thus far in the process prepares you for this mess. Is it possible to leave the damn thing off and just fly with goggles? Hello Vans! Fix it! Let me do my 51% somewhere else! There must be other builders like me! Please don't flame me. It would just add to my frustration at this point. John McD (RV7A - @# %$ Canopy - ARRGGHAAA) Don't care if you archive or not, but please, somebody at Vans read this!!! Rant over. Tomorrow is another day. Maybe the elves will finish the canopy while I sleep. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 11:00:52 PM PST US From: JTAnon@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Canopy - Enough Already --> RV-List message posted by: JTAnon@aol.com OK! I made a mistake! The original (8/11 Canopy - How many more times?) post was a failed attempt at humor. In subsequent posts apparently some think I'm a weanie, some agree, some want to "fix my head" and make me a "real builder" LOL I get it! Thanks to all for your input. So tomorrow I'll go at the canopy frame again, hope springs eternal Or maybe I'll do something more fun like back riveting my finger nails, drilling yet another hole in my thumb, or maybe do something new like just slamming my head repeatedly into my EAA designed workbench until I realize I bit off more than I can chew with this project. NOT! Best move is to go to bed and recognize that, "What one man can do, another can do." I WILL finish this project. Let's all agree to two things.... 1) Come admire my plane at Oshkosh next year 2) Let's save the band width for guys that have real building questions and can benefit from the invaluable help and advice that I have benefited from over the years on this list. John McD (RV7A canopy redux) PS Jerry, You're not the same guy who hosts that TV show and thinks he can run for the Senate are you?