---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 08/19/05: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:09 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 2. 04:09 AM - Re: Photo for presentation (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 3. 05:31 AM - Re: Large static port error (Dale Ensing) 4. 05:32 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Chuck Jensen) 5. 05:42 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com) 6. 06:25 AM - Re: TASKEM altimeter (SCOTT SPENCER) 7. 06:29 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Rhonda Bewley) 8. 06:58 AM - Anyone flying with a BMA/EFIS one? (n223rv@wolflakeairport.net) 9. 07:06 AM - Re: Large static port error (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 10. 07:18 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Alex Peterson) 11. 07:21 AM - Re: Photo for presentation (LarryRobertHelming) 12. 07:51 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Dwight Frye) 13. 08:02 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Jeff Dowling) 14. 08:05 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Bob) 15. 08:34 AM - Re: First Flight Video (BBreckenridge@att.net) 16. 08:39 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Dan Checkoway) 17. 09:03 AM - Re: Large static port error (Chuck Weyant) 18. 09:12 AM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (Skylor Piper) 19. 09:30 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Kevin Horton) 20. 10:11 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Darrell Reiley) 21. 10:13 AM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (Rick Galati) 22. 10:38 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Ron Lee) 23. 10:52 AM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Chuck Jensen) 24. 11:04 AM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR) 25. 11:16 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Konrad L. Werner) 26. 11:18 AM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Bill VonDane) 27. 11:55 AM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (Mickey Coggins) 28. 12:10 PM - Re-engineering (was Large static port error) (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 29. 12:16 PM - Fly-In Saturday Aug20 Polson, MT 8S1 (Tony Marshall) 30. 12:44 PM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Kevin Horton) 31. 01:07 PM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (LarryRobertHelming) 32. 01:20 PM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights (George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR) 33. 01:21 PM - Re: Visit to Airflow Performance (Chuck Jensen) 34. 01:28 PM - Re: Mixture cable too short? (Steve Struyk) 35. 01:43 PM - New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale (Bill VonDane) 36. 01:43 PM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA (Skylor Piper) 37. 02:16 PM - Re: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale (Walter Tondu) 38. 02:28 PM - Loans (John Furey) 39. 02:29 PM - Loans (John Furey) 40. 02:41 PM - 2005 Twin Cities fly-in/camp-in (Alex Peterson) 41. 03:08 PM - Re: Loans (Cory Emberson) 42. 03:08 PM - Re: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale (Bill VonDane) 43. 03:10 PM - Re: Loans (Walter Tondu) 44. 04:06 PM - circuit breaker installation () 45. 04:58 PM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (RV6 Flyer) 46. 05:54 PM - Re: Photo for presentation (Charlie England) 47. 06:27 PM - Re: Photo for presentation (Bill VonDane) 48. 07:39 PM - Re: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep (Ron Lee) 49. 11:44 PM - Re: Shaping the elevator counter weights (Mickey Coggins) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" That's correct Ron. They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be a safe and proficient formation pilot. Mike Do not archive. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. Is that correct? Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Photo for presentation From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Nope. I was at about 50' when the photo was taken. She snapped the picture at the exact moment of a 4 point roll. That's what made it so neat. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV-List: Photo for presentation --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > my all time favorites. You might also look closely and see the ailerons > are neutral, stick is neutral in my lap and I don't have inverted oil. > So all you geniuses... How can that be? Sounds like the top of a loop to me. do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:30 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Large static port error --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" AND it is a whole lot cheaper and easier to just install the Van's static port pop rivets, than it is to try to simulate it with fancy machined parts later. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM Couldn't agree more Larry! But, I thought I was upgrading years ago when I spent extra money on the Cleveland static ports. Do you (or anyone) know if there is enough wall thickness in the Cleveland ports to drill out the hole to allow a press fit insertion of the rivet? Dale Ensing do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" A few weeks ago, after posting a request for a recommendation on getting injectors in an IO-540 balanced on the Reflector (Velocity website). Based on two or three recommendations, I contacted Air Flow Performance, Spartanburg, SC (SPA). I related to Don that I had done the GAMI routine, but after a year, the lowest spread achieved was 1.5 gph. One of the best, if still not great, settings after multiple GAMI injectors change outs was to run #3 and #6 LOP and the other four ROP. Not ideal but it kind of worked. When pressed about why the tuned injectors weren't tuned after innumerable lean test runs and injector change outs, GAMI said "huh, that's odd" but never solved the problem. After a couple missed appointments due to schedule and weather, we hooked up on Saturday (yes, they volunteered to come in on Saturday to accommodate my schedule). From the baseline flight of 1.5 gph spread, the next set of restrictors dropped it to 1.2, then 0.8, then less than 0.4--done! In 4-5 hours, I'd resolved the issue that I'd been piddling with for over a year. Now, in all fairness to GAMI, they were very patient and persistent. Over the year, they sent a LOT of injectors. Of course, each required cowl removal, injector change out, then a new set of lean tests, just to find out they really didn't change anything. After the second flight at Airflow, a 5 minute explanation finally made sense of why the GAMI injector change outs never changed anything. It turns out the Flow Divider opening pressure is around 1.5 PSI. Since our test points were around 12 GPH that resulted in a nozzle back pressure of around 1.7 PSI. What was happening was that even though a larger nozzle was being installed in cylinder #6 the Flow Divider was influencing the division of flow to the nozzles. The solution was counter intuitive, but eminently sensible when understood. To make #6 rich, the other cylinders were 'cinched down' with smaller restrictors, which caused the nozzle back pressure to increase driving the Flow Divider more open so that it would not influence the division of flow to the nozzles. With more fuel being pushed to #6 and they dialed right in. Now, I assume GAMI is probably that smart also, but the advantages of hands-on problem analysis and immediate retesting are inestimable, something that GAMI, due to geography couldn't do. More important than the 0.5-0.8 gph fuel savings was the smoothness factor. The canard, which is an excellent tell-tale for vibration, was dead calm throughout the ROP area and displayed only a small vibration when I went into the LOP region. That small vibration vibration is still less than anything I'd achieved with the GAMI injectors in either ROP/LOP operations. Finally, I note there is a difference between GAMI and Airflow for making injector adjustments. GAMI changes out the whole injector whereas Airflow uses an injector body, then they just swaps out the restrictor inserts, which only requires removal of the fuel line nut, relatively easy to do even when we have to work around/through the Velo plenum. With the GAMIs, I was never enthused about screwing multiple injectors into the cylinders. The odds of cross-threading and screwing up the injector or cylinder is low, but still there. Whether you bring the plane to Spartanburg (SPA) or do it remotely, I'm guessing you'll come away smarter and with as good or better results than from some of their competitors. The office walls are plastered with all the show pilots they tune, including Patty Wagstaff, Tucker, et al. And the best part; the total cost for the Airflow injector balancing, including new injectors, was about the cost of the GAMIs...and I didn't have to do all the work. So, as you might guess, I'm sold. Without reservation on cost, service or results, Airflow gets my vote. This is one instance where we don't have to whine about over-priced and under-served in the aviation business. Chuck Disclosure: I don't own or have an interest in Airflow...but I wish I did. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:18 AM PST US From: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Chuck, could u give us a name and contact number for AFP. Thanks, Doug Preston BHM DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:25:37 AM PST US From: SCOTT SPENCER Subject: RV-List: Re: TASKEM altimeter --> RV-List message posted by: SCOTT SPENCER I have one and have used it for several years / hundreds of hours as a backup altimeter and primarily a rate of climb... and find it works well -once it's set up and calibrated with the proper offset (which took some time). It does have a bit of an annoying warm up period but seems to be dead-on with the steam guage altimeter at every glance. I haven't had luck getting the encoder to work (I wanted to use it as a back-up encoder as well) -but haven't invested much effort in trying to figure out why the encoder function isn't working. It makes an awesome R.O.C. and I find it's very easy to see small trends before the altitude changes at all -which along with my primary steam guage altimeter makes holding an altitude very easy. I have just purchased a Dynon and will have essentially 3 altimeters after installing it -because I'm keeping my steam guage altimeter for the forseeable future to backup the Dynon (I fly for a living and have learned to appreciate steam guage backups even in EFIS equipped corporate aircraft -those darn tubes get really black when they go out... nothing like flying along seeing your reflection in a dark screen in IMC) Anyway -I might consider selling it 'cause 2 altimeters is enough. One electric... one not. Scott N4ZW RV-4 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:29:53 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance From: "Rhonda Bewley" --> RV-List message posted by: "Rhonda Bewley" You may contact Don or Colleen Rivera at (864)576-0201. Rhonda -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: DOUGPFLYRV@aol.com Chuck, could u give us a name and contact number for AFP. Thanks, Doug Preston BHM DO NOT ARCHIVE ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:48 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Anyone flying with a BMA/EFIS one? From: n223rv@wolflakeairport.net --> RV-List message posted by: n223rv@wolflakeairport.net I am interested in talking with people flying with the Blue Mountain EFIS/One. I am having a hard time deciding what I want to use in my RV-10 and was hoping to get some real users input. Please contact me offline at n223rv@wolflakeairport.net. I'd really like to talk with people who are flying with them. Thank you Mike RV-4 Flying RV-10 building ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:55 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Large static port error --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com I tried the rivet thing with unsatisfactory results and did this instead: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4987 another look: http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4989 Roll yer own or let me know if ya want some... Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN RV-6A N51PW ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:18:24 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" I made a little clip which holds the pushbutton in on the vernier throttle. It is easy to manually hold the button in for a few minutes with the palm of the hand, but it gets tiring after 20 minutes or so. Another thing which I deem essential for a center throttle and formation flying is an armrest for the throttle arm. Very precise movements are possible with the throttle knob in the hand and a finger against the panel. Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 654 hours Maple Grove, MN > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > --> > > That's correct Ron. > They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be > a safe and proficient formation pilot. > Mike > Do not archive. > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. > > Is that correct? > > Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:01 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Photo for presentation --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" 50' !! AGL or 50' above another plane? Either way is amazing. Please do not attempt this any more, especially when I am around the area. And is your insurance carrier Falcon at EAA. Thank you Mike for the picture however. ONe for the scrap book to keep. do not archive. Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) (((((((((((()))))))))))))))) ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Nope. I was at about 50' when the photo was taken. She snapped the > picture at the exact moment of a 4 point roll. That's what made it so > neat. > > Mike > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:28 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye With all the praises being heaped upon Airflow Performance, I thought I'd chime in with my (extremely good) experience. I was in the middle of fitting my fuel pump and found that the fitting on the manifold was angled such that the tubing coming off the "T" hit the filter that was to be mounted right beside it. This kept me from orienting the pump in the upright position and would have had the top end of the manifold hitting the side plate. It just didn't want to fit the way that "T" was oriented. See the following links for details .. if the way I described it above is confusing. :) http://www.openweave.org/RV7/showpic.php?picture=Fuselage/PumpInterference.pic http://www.openweave.org/RV7/showpic.php?picture=Fuselage/PumpInterference1.pic Anyway ... before I broke something trying to re-clock the fitting myself (and after talking to other builders) I called Don at AFP. The discussion was a bit unreal. I explained my situation, and asked if I could re-clock it myself. He said that I shouldn't do it myself as I would void a warranty, but that they could do it for me. I asked if I could just fly or drive down with the unit and he said that would be fine. I asked when would be a good time .. and he said any time, even over a weekend, just give him a few days advance notice. Now we get to the unreal part ... I asked how much it would cost, and he seemed confused and said "nothing". So, he was willing to see me on a weekend, fix my problem, and not charge me a dime. Ok. Sure. I'll believe it when I see it. We made a plan to have me visit on a Sunday, and he was already were there at the shop. He took me back to their work area, quickly re-clocked the "T" for me, re-fabricated the tubing that had to be replaced, ran the pump and flow-checked it on their flow bench ... *and* gave me a tour of their faciliy *and* chatted non-stop about airplanes and fuel injection. He was gracious and helpful and ... didn't charge me a dime. I came away from AFP sold. What customer service! What an good impression this experience left with me! It seems that my experience was not an isolated one, either, if this thread of discussion on the list is to be believed. I had been inclined to sign up for their "Fuel Injection 101" class and after this experience with them am more convinced it is a good idea than ever. Anyway ... just thought I'd share. -- Dwight do not archive ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:14 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Study a bit? Study a ton for my pee size memory!! I hope I can find the time. Shemp do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep > --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > > Jeff, > > The hand signals in the T-34 manual are alot like the ones we used in the > military but there are some differences. If you are going you will need > to > find a T-34 manual to study a bit. > > Tom - using Kabongs computer. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Dowling" > To: > Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" >> >> >> I dont remember what manual I used 16 years ago but I assume it was part >> of >> the T-37 "dash one" (operating manual). I dont have a good memory >> though, >> I >> think. >> >> Shemp/Jeff Dowling >> RV-6A, N915JD >> 235 hours >> Chicago/Louisville >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "RV6 Flyer" >> To: >> Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep >> >> >>> --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" >>> >>> The T-34 Formation Flight Manual is THE only manual that will do. It is >>> the >>> STANDARD adopted by all FAA Approved Formation flight agencies. >>> >>> I never saw a T-37 formation fight manual. Is there such a thing? >>> >>> Gary A. Sobek >>> "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, >>> 1,749 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA >>> http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com >>> >>> >>> ----Original Message Follows---- >>> From: "Jeff Dowling" >>> To: >>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep >>> Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:04:26 -0500 >>> >>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" >>> >>> >>> Would a t-37 manual be ok or are there a lot of differences due to the >>> prop? >>> >>> Shemp/Jeff Dowling >>> RV-6A, N915JD >>> 235 hours >>> Chicago/Louisville >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "RV-List" >>> Subject: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep >>> >>> >>> > --> RV-List message posted by: sturdy@att.net >>> > >>> > The Abilene Airfest Formation Flying Clinic will be conducted at >>> > Abilene >>> > Regional Airport (KABI) on 23-25 Sep. The clinic is being conducted >>> > by >>> > Stu McCurdy and Mike Stewart and will follow the sequence previously >>> > used >>> > at our other successful formation clinics. The clinic targets RV type >>> > aircraft, but aircraft of similar configuration and airspeeds will be >>> > considered. The clinic is held for pilots of all formation >>> > backgrounds >>> > from no experience to highly experienced, but all registrants should >>> > have >>> > excellent stick and rudder skills. We generally like a mix of 1/3 >>> > no/little experience, 1/3 medium experience, 1/3 highly experienced. >>> > Please note we expect participants to be prepared by obtaining and >>> > studying referenced materials. To read clinic info, to register, as >>> > well >>> > as to make your motel reservations, go here >>> > http://bigcountryairfest.org/html/formation_flight_clinic.html. We >>> > will >>> > limit total participation. Also, please note the block of rooms will >>> > be >>> > held only until >>> > 8 Sep, so early registration is encouraged. >>> > >>> > Stu McCurdy >>> > Falcon Flight >>> > FFI >>> > RV-8 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > The Abilene Airfest Formation Flying Clinic will be conducted at >>> > Abilene >>> > Regional Airport (KABI) on 23-25 Sep. The clinic is being conducted by >>> Stu >>> > McCurdy and Mike Stewart and will >>> > follow >>> > the sequence previously used at our other successful formation >>> > clinics. >>> > The clinic targets RV type aircraft, but aircraft of similar >>> configuration >>> > and airspeeds will be considered. The clinic is held for pilots of all >>> > formation backgrounds from no experience to highly experienced, but >>> > all >>> > registrants should have excellent stick and rudder skills. >> > SPAN>We generally like a mix of 1/3 no/little experience, 1/3 medium >>> > experience, 1/3 highly experienced. Please note we expect participants >>> > to >>> > be prepared by obtaining and studying referenced materials. To read >>> clinic >>> > info, to register, as well as to make your motel reservations, go here >>> > http://bigcountryairfest.org/html/formation_flight_clinic.html. We >>> > will >>> > limit total participation. Also, please note the block of rooms will >>> > be >>> > held only until 8 Sep, so early registration is encouraged. >>> > >>> > >>> > Stu McCurdy >>> > >>> > >>> > Falcon Flight >>> > >>> > >>> > FFI >>> > >>> > >>> > RV-8 >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:32 AM PST US From: Bob Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Bob At 05:18 PM 8/18/05, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > >What's the money for the system? I went through the numbers with Don on this. The price is about $3100 for a complete system RV system, which is a little less than a complete Bendix system. Don will sell either system. Now the complete system includes the purge valve and fuel pump with filter. Make sure when you do a comparison, you include those items. Note: the AFP auxiliary fuel pump is a lot less expensive than any other FI fuel pump that I know of. Also Don told me that the AFP will produce more HP than the Bendix, I did not question him on this, so I can not defend his claim. But, I think the AFP is bigger, therefore provides more air and fuel. For those that disagree, talk to Don. If all you will ever do is fly right side up, I would not recommend Fuel Injection. In my case FI is harder to start and real hard to start when it is hot, also I get engine surging on hot days while taxiing. These are not complaints, just a trade off to get good inverted fuel flow to the engine. For those still building and getting all that FAA educational and recreational experience (occasional frustration), the educational and recreational experience does not stop once the airplane is flying. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:54 AM PST US From: BBreckenridge@att.net Subject: RV-List: Re: First Flight Video 1.25 RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO Received: contains an IP address used for HELO --> RV-List message posted by: BBreckenridge@att.net Walter; Excellent quality video. Loved the "video in video" aspect of take off & landing. I admit, watching the take off roll & rotation made me think that you were going to retract your gear at any moment!! Maybe it was the music! Thanks for a real treat. Enjoy! Bruce 40018 Walter; Excellent quality video. Loved the "video in video" aspect of take off landing. I admit, watching the take off roll rotation made me think that you were going to retract your gear at any moment!! Maybe it was the music! Thanks for a real treat. Enjoy! Bruce 40018 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:39:09 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Also Don told me that the AFP will produce more HP than the Bendix, I did > not question him on this, so I can not defend his claim. But, I think the > AFP is bigger, therefore provides more air and fuel. For those that > disagree, talk to Don. I can tell you that I get higher manifold pressure (and a heck of a fast plane) using AFP injection on my RV-7. Don't know if the higher available manifold pressure is due to AFP, extremely efficient induction/exhaust, or what. Probably all of the above. > If all you will ever do is fly right side up, I would not recommend Fuel Don't forget about the ability to run LOP (lean of peak) when running balanced FI. Hey, I don't know about you, but with fuel prices going nuts, I run LOP on almost every flight, regardless of mission. The fuel savings is getting bigger and bigger as fuel prices go up. Yes, the expense is higher up front, but it pays for itself quickly. And more and more quickly as fuel prices rise. Fuel injection is not just about inverted fuel delivery. It's about saving money, running your engine in a more healthy fashion, extracting more power from the same displacement, etc. It's a thing of beauty!! > Injection. In my case FI is harder to start and real hard to start when > it Do you use the purge valve? My engine is by no means as easy to start when hot as a carb'd setup is, but it's not as bad as you make it out to be. Every once in a while I booger a hot start, but it's always due to something I screwed up in the process. When done correctly, it's easy. I'm kind of a fuel injection fanatic, so take what I say with a grain of salt. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:03:58 AM PST US From: "Chuck Weyant" Subject: Re: RV-List: Large static port error --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Weyant" I'm flying a RV9A since last October. Let me say this about 'reengineering'. Think twice about it. I didn't alter anthing on my 9A. Built it just the way Van's instructions and plans say to do. I've now got about a hundred and ten hours on my beauty and nothing, and I mean nothing has gone wrong. It flies beautifully and I wasn't slowed down in the building process by having to redo something that didn't work out to be an improvement after all. If you read and study the plans thoroughly before cutting, pounding, bending, or riveting; get the firewall forward kit and don't pick some weird powerplant, you'll save time (and money) in the long run and go flying sooner with far fewer headaches and discouragements. I enjoyed the building process more than I'd dreamed, but my motivation was to build something to fly. That's why I didn't alter a thing from the plans. To do so adds time to the building process. I get gobs of compliments too. Oh yes, and my static ports work just fine! Chuck Weyant N8058V --- RV9A I'll email a pic on request ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Large static port error > --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > > I tried the rivet thing with unsatisfactory results and did this instead: > > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4987 > > another look: > > http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=4989 > > Roll yer own or let me know if ya want some... > > Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN > RV-6A N51PW > > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:37 AM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper Am I the only one who is scared to death by the washer/bolt idea shown below? If that bolt backs out in flight, it will lead to a locked elevator! In my opinion, that thing absolutely needs to be safety wired! Skylor RV-8 QB Under Construction --- Brad Oliver wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Brad Oliver > > > Yes, exactly!!! > > I thought I was being clever... guess not. ;-) > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter > weights > > From: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR > > > Date: Thu, August 18, 2005 11:22 am > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt > AU/XPRR > > > > Brad - > > Like this? > > > http://www.appaero.com/Pictures/Emp%20Pics/Elev%20Pics/MoreWeight.JPG > > > > > http://www.appaero.com/Pictures/Emp%20Pics/Elev%20Pics/CBalance.JPG > > > > Neal > > RV-7 N8ZG (Center Fuselage) > > RV-8 N998GM (Skinning Wings) > > > > Do Not Archive > > > > What if... and I am just thinking out loud here... > before installing the > > tip, you install a nutplate on the forward tooling > hole (on the ribs)? > > This would give you a place to bolt additional > weight if needed down > > the road (after paint). My only concern there > would be the potential > > that the screw would back out even though it is in > a nutplate, and the > > weight would come loose, but I guess a good amount > of loctite might > > mitigate the chances of that happening? > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Brad > > RV-7 Livermore, CA > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:01 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 19 Aug 2005, at 11:38, Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > >> Also Don told me that the AFP will produce more HP than the >> Bendix, I did >> not question him on this, so I can not defend his claim. But, I >> think the >> AFP is bigger, therefore provides more air and fuel. For those that >> disagree, talk to Don. >> > > I can tell you that I get higher manifold pressure (and a heck of a > fast > plane) using AFP injection on my RV-7. Don't know if the higher > available > manifold pressure is due to AFP, extremely efficient induction/ > exhaust, or > what. Probably all of the above. I'd love to see the data from testing with AFP and Bendix on the same plane, with the same MP gauge, air filter, exhaust, etc. There are so many variables if you try to compare data from AFP on one plane against Bendix on another it is hard to know to which variable to attribute any differences. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:33 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley For a complete system that's a Great Price! I think it's time to call Don. Thanks for the info... Darrell Bob wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Bob At 05:18 PM 8/18/05, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley > >What's the money for the system? I went through the numbers with Don on this. The price is about $3100 for a complete system RV system, which is a little less than a complete Bendix system. Don will sell either system. Now the complete system includes the purge valve and fuel pump with filter. Make sure when you do a comparison, you include those items. Note: the AFP auxiliary fuel pump is a lot less expensive than any other FI fuel pump that I know of. Also Don told me that the AFP will produce more HP than the Bendix, I did not question him on this, so I can not defend his claim. But, I think the AFP is bigger, therefore provides more air and fuel. For those that disagree, talk to Don. If all you will ever do is fly right side up, I would not recommend Fuel Injection. In my case FI is harder to start and real hard to start when it is hot, also I get engine surging on hot days while taxiing. These are not complaints, just a trade off to get good inverted fuel flow to the engine. For those still building and getting all that FAA educational and recreational experience (occasional frustration), the educational and recreational experience does not stop once the airplane is flying. Bob RV6 NightFighter Darrell Reiley Round Rock, Texas RV 7A "Reiley Rocket" N622DR (reserved) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:13:08 AM PST US From: Rick Galati Subject: RV-List: RE: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati Personally, I'd be more concerned about the lack of minimum acceptable thread protrusion. Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" 68 hours RV-8A empennage complete Am I the only one who is scared to death by the washer/bolt idea shown below? If that bolt backs out in flight, it will lead to a locked elevator! In my opinion, that thing absolutely needs to be safety wired! Skylor RV-8 QB Under Construction ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:25 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee If you want precise movements that is what a vernier allows. Seems silly to me so I just won't go. Ron Lee At 08:17 AM 8/19/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > >I made a little clip which holds the pushbutton in on the vernier throttle. >It is easy to manually hold the button in for a few minutes with the palm of >the hand, but it gets tiring after 20 minutes or so. Another thing which I >deem essential for a center throttle and formation flying is an armrest for >the throttle arm. Very precise movements are possible with the throttle >knob in the hand and a finger against the panel. > >Alex Peterson >RV6-A N66AP 654 hours >Maple Grove, MN > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > --> > > > > That's correct Ron. > > They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be > > a safe and proficient formation pilot. > > Mike > > Do not archive. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. > > > > Is that correct? > > > > Ron Lee > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:20 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Kevin, You're exactly correct in that such a side by side comparison is rife with subjective, qualitative assessments. What I can tell you is after Air Flow did injector balancing on a Bendix FI system, that the fuel flow for the same power was 0.5 gph less, the peak EGT spread was reduced to 0.3 gph from 1.5 gph (quantitative/factual) and the engine ran markedly smoother through all power regimes (qualitative/subjective). A before-after is quite easy to compare. A side by side between two different systems is significantly more difficult. I don't know if an Air Flow FI is better than a Bendix FI, but I know an Air Flow injector tuning took 1 year and several hundred dollars less than GAMI, which never got there. So... Chuck Jensen -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 19 Aug 2005, at 11:38, Dan Checkoway wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > > >> Also Don told me that the AFP will produce more HP than the >> Bendix, I did >> not question him on this, so I can not defend his claim. But, I >> think the >> AFP is bigger, therefore provides more air and fuel. For those that >> disagree, talk to Don. >> > > I can tell you that I get higher manifold pressure (and a heck of a > fast > plane) using AFP injection on my RV-7. Don't know if the higher > available > manifold pressure is due to AFP, extremely efficient induction/ > exhaust, or > what. Probably all of the above. I'd love to see the data from testing with AFP and Bendix on the same plane, with the same MP gauge, air filter, exhaust, etc. There are so many variables if you try to compare data from AFP on one plane against Bendix on another it is hard to know to which variable to attribute any differences. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:04:32 AM PST US From: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR Good eye Skylor - In the text on the web site, you'll read that I wasn't satisfied with the first draft and opted to move the bolt and weights to the outboard side of the counterbalance rib. Though not specifically mentioned, it will also get safety wire. Brad and I have been discussing this very topic off-list. Full page view here: http://www.appaero.com/emp_fiberlass.htm Neal --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > Am I the only one who is scared to death by the washer/bolt idea shown below? If that bolt backs out in flight, it will lead to a locked elevator! In my opinion, that thing absolutely needs to be safety wired! Skylor RV-8 QB Under Construction < ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:16:34 AM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" Precise yes, but not quick enough a response when in very close proximity of another A/C. do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee If you want precise movements that is what a vernier allows. Seems silly to me so I just won't go. Ron Lee At 08:17 AM 8/19/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > >I made a little clip which holds the pushbutton in on the vernier throttle. >It is easy to manually hold the button in for a few minutes with the palm of >the hand, but it gets tiring after 20 minutes or so. Another thing which I >deem essential for a center throttle and formation flying is an armrest for >the throttle arm. Very precise movements are possible with the throttle >knob in the hand and a finger against the panel. > >Alex Peterson >RV6-A N66AP 654 hours >Maple Grove, MN > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > --> > > > > That's correct Ron. > > They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be > > a safe and proficient formation pilot. > > Mike > > Do not archive. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. > > > > Is that correct? > > > > Ron Lee > > -- ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:18:08 AM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" It's more of a speed thing then precision... You need to be able to make changes to the throttle, large or small, without any obstruction or delay... -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Lee" Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee If you want precise movements that is what a vernier allows. Seems silly to me so I just won't go. Ron Lee At 08:17 AM 8/19/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > >I made a little clip which holds the pushbutton in on the vernier throttle. >It is easy to manually hold the button in for a few minutes with the palm of >the hand, but it gets tiring after 20 minutes or so. Another thing which I >deem essential for a center throttle and formation flying is an armrest for >the throttle arm. Very precise movements are possible with the throttle >knob in the hand and a finger against the panel. > >Alex Peterson >RV6-A N66AP 654 hours >Maple Grove, MN > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > --> > > > > That's correct Ron. > > They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be > > a safe and proficient formation pilot. > > Mike > > Do not archive. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. > > > > Is that correct? > > > > Ron Lee > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:55:24 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Neal, > > Brad and I have been discussing this very topic off-list. > > Full page view here: http://www.appaero.com/emp_fiberlass.htm > Quick question on the elevator lead - I was thinking of just cutting more space on the HS and then building up using fiberglass over the lead counterweight to make it smooth. Does this seem like it would work ok? -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:16 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re-engineering (was Large static port error) --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Howdy Chuck- Absolutely no offense, but please see imbeds below: >>Let me say this about 'reengineering'.=A0 Think twice about it.=A0 I think it's a bit of a stretch to call using an easy-to-make, install and connect static port to the same dimensions as the pop-rivet thing as "reengineering"- especially since it works just fine- I'd call that an "improvement". Yes, many have used the pops successfully, but my incentive was to make sure I never had to crawl back in to re-connect or re-attach a loose/leaky hose. I'm positive I "thought" about it more than twice- I s'pose I just think too much- my bad... 8-) >>I didn't alter anthing on my 9A. Built it just the way Van's instructions and plans say to do.=A0 That's terrific- and you got a great airplane to show for it. FWIW, I altered a bunch of stuff, just nothing affecting structural or aerodynamic qualities, and always got Vans Tech input if I thought it might. Mostly cosmetic, ease-of-build or maintenance stuff, which is one of the great advantages of building an experimental. (You didn't DARE use any pop-rivets where solids=20were called out, did you?) >>I've now got about a hundred and ten hours on my beauty and nothing, and I mean nothing has gone wrong.=A0 Congratulations, and I mean it! Pretty much the same for my plane after twice the hours- helluva bird, ain't they? >>It flies beautifully and I wasn't slowed down in the building process by having to redo something that didn't work out to be an improvement after all.=A0 Ditto on both counts, and I spent a TON of time on mods & redos. (3000 hrs to first flight, over 4000 & counting to date, but hey- it was a SLO build without all them holes already installed!) But if something didn't work out, you can bet it was redone! Probably spent 2-300 hours just making my steps retract, with no ill effects to airframe, safety or performance, but VERY "educational & recreational" and entertaining to boot! 8-) >>If you read and study the plans thoroughly before cutting, pounding, bending, or riveting; get the firewall forward kit and don't pick some weird powerplant, you'll save time (and money) in the long run and go flying sooner with far fewer headaches and discouragements. Couldn't agree more! (except the part about the FWF kit) But if someone decided they liked a throttle quadrant on the side of a -7 (ala Checkoway) and it worked for him, would you call this "reengineering" or just making an intelligent decision to satisfy a personal preference? VERY respectfully- Mark Phillips - Columbia, TN N51PW & do not archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:45 PM PST US From: "Tony Marshall" Subject: RV-List: Fly-In Saturday Aug20 Polson, MT 8S1 --> RV-List message posted by: "Tony Marshall" Join us for our 7th Annual Polson Fly-in. Numerous experimentals, antiques and other planes. Breakfast begins at 0800 and is free for pilots. Plan to spend the whole day.....and join us for our famous 'pitchfork fondue' evening meal to be followed by our Soroptomist Wine Tasting Festival.....all at the Polson airport. Camping and shower on field...great motels nearby. If you need further information, call me on my cell 406-249-0835. THANKS! Tony Marshall RV6 (and loving every single flying minute) Polson, MT ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:44:02 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Chuck, I'm very glad you posted your experience. I hadn't realized that AFP sold nozzles that were compatible with Bendix FI systems. I've got a Bendix FI system, and I'm glad there is another option than GAMI in case I want to fine tune it. I'm not yet flying, but I plan to check the curve of EGT vs fuel flow for each cylinder eventually. How much did it cost to switch to the AFP nozzles? Are they pretty much a bolt-in replacement, or did you have to make any changes to the lines to the nozzles, etc? Thanks, Kevin Horton On 19 Aug 2005, at 13:47, Chuck Jensen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" > > Kevin, > > You're exactly correct in that such a side by side comparison is rife > with subjective, qualitative assessments. What I can tell you is > after > Air Flow did injector balancing on a Bendix FI system, that the fuel > flow for the same power was 0.5 gph less, the peak EGT spread was > reduced to 0.3 gph from 1.5 gph (quantitative/factual) and the engine > ran markedly smoother through all power regimes > (qualitative/subjective). > > A before-after is quite easy to compare. A side by side between two > different systems is significantly more difficult. I don't know if an > Air Flow FI is better than a Bendix FI, but I know an Air Flow > injector > tuning took 1 year and several hundred dollars less than GAMI, which > never got there. So... > > Chuck Jensen > > ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:37 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" This should one of the preflight checks to be sure the lead weights on each side is solidly in place. Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up It Flies Teamwork: " A lot of people doing exactly what I say." (Marketing exec., Citrix Corp.) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Skylor Piper" Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA > --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > > Am I the only one who is scared to death by the > washer/bolt idea shown below? If that bolt backs out > in flight, it will lead to a locked elevator! In my > opinion, that thing absolutely needs to be safety > wired! > > Skylor > RV-8 QB > Under Construction > > --- Brad Oliver wrote: > >> --> RV-List message posted by: Brad Oliver >> >> >> Yes, exactly!!! >> >> I thought I was being clever... guess not. ;-) >> >> >> > -------- Original Message -------- >> > Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter >> weights >> > From: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR >> >> > Date: Thu, August 18, 2005 11:22 am >> > To: rv-list@matronics.com >> > >> > --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt >> AU/XPRR >> > >> > Brad - >> > Like this? >> > >> > http://www.appaero.com/Pictures/Emp%20Pics/Elev%20Pics/MoreWeight.JPG >> > >> > >> > http://www.appaero.com/Pictures/Emp%20Pics/Elev%20Pics/CBalance.JPG >> > >> > Neal >> > RV-7 N8ZG (Center Fuselage) >> > RV-8 N998GM (Skinning Wings) >> > >> > Do Not Archive >> > >> > What if... and I am just thinking out loud here... >> before installing the >> > tip, you install a nutplate on the forward tooling >> hole (on the ribs)? >> > This would give you a place to bolt additional >> weight if needed down >> > the road (after paint). My only concern there >> would be the potential >> > that the screw would back out even though it is in >> a nutplate, and the >> > weight would come loose, but I guess a good amount >> of loctite might >> > mitigate the chances of that happening? >> > >> > Thoughts? >> > >> > Brad >> > RV-7 Livermore, CA >> > >> > >> >> >> >> browse >> Subscriptions page, >> FAQ, >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:43 PM PST US From: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR Hey Mickey - I hit your site and looked at your emp pages trying to better understand the question. Do you propose wrapping the forward end of the counterbalance skin/fiberglass tip in a few layers of glass and relieving the aft end of the HS skin flange/fiberglass tip to provide the needed clearance? Seems like it would work. Given the differences in flexibility and expansion coefficients, in a lamination of this sort will West 105/205 stay stuck to the aluminum over the long haul? (I don't know - I have no experience to support or refute.) I'm not exactly surrounded by RVs here in the bowels of Alabama, but the few that I've been able to give more than a passing glance have had a common problem. If the counterbalance tips are pop-riveted and then glassed/bondoed/filled smooth, cracks develop along the joint line where the fiberglass tip meets the aluminum skin. The two that I have been able to go look at when I get stumped (old-style -8A and -6A) have riveted tips and un-filled joints. Errors or shortcomings in the application? Wrong product? Maybe. I'm not a glass wizard, and it seemed easier to avoid than prevent. And I wanted the tips removable. So I chose to attach the tips with screws and stop the bondo at the joint line. neal RV-7 N8ZG (71771, center fuse) RV-8 N998GM (85224, skinning wings) --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Neal, Quick question on the elevator lead - I was thinking of just cutting more space on the HS and then building up using fiberglass over the lead counterweight to make it smooth. Does this seem like it would work ok? -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Kevin, Since I had a mixed bag of injectors and had no way of knowing what they were doing, we started out with a new set of his injectors ($16/ea--very fair price). The injectors are an exact swap out. The fuel line and nut attaches right to the new injector. Thereafter, you only have to swap out the restrictors that are precisely sized and slide right into the injector body. Swapping out restrictors is a LOT faster than changing injectors when the engine is hot. After completing a test flight, a fan blowing on the engine will cool the fuel line nut enough to remove it bare handed after a few minutes. If you are changing out the whole injector, they'll stay hot until the whole engine cools down. The cost of the restrictors, no matter how many you test and swap out, is built into the $300 tuning fee. Air Flow even sent one of their fellows along on the flight and he logged all the numbers as I read them out--not an inconsequential convenience. My only complaints; the hangar wasn't air conditioned and there were no dancing girls. Everything else was top notch. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Visit to Airflow Performance --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton Chuck, I'm very glad you posted your experience. I hadn't realized that AFP sold nozzles that were compatible with Bendix FI systems. I've got a Bendix FI system, and I'm glad there is another option than GAMI in case I want to fine tune it. I'm not yet flying, but I plan to check the curve of EGT vs fuel flow for each cylinder eventually. How much did it cost to switch to the AFP nozzles? Are they pretty much a bolt-in replacement, or did you have to make any changes to the lines to the nozzles, etc? Thanks, Kevin Horton On 19 Aug 2005, at 13:47, Chuck Jensen wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" > > Kevin, > > You're exactly correct in that such a side by side comparison is rife > with subjective, qualitative assessments. What I can tell you is > after > Air Flow did injector balancing on a Bendix FI system, that the fuel > flow for the same power was 0.5 gph less, the peak EGT spread was > reduced to 0.3 gph from 1.5 gph (quantitative/factual) and the engine > ran markedly smoother through all power regimes > (qualitative/subjective). > > A before-after is quite easy to compare. A side by side between two > different systems is significantly more difficult. I don't know if an > Air Flow FI is better than a Bendix FI, but I know an Air Flow > injector > tuning took 1 year and several hundred dollars less than GAMI, which > never got there. So... > > Chuck Jensen > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:28 PM PST US From: "Steve Struyk" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mixture cable too short? --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Struyk" After talking to Van's (Bruce, if I remember correctly) he told me that this is "normal " for the cables provided with the FWF kit. He said to "adjust the mixture to just reach the idle cutoff stop and accept whatever you get at the rich end." My fix was to do as he described, but first I drilled a new hole above the old on the mixture lever, (further away from the pivot point) giving me more cable travel per any given lever input. The end result is the ability to reach the idle stop on the Carb. without running out of quadrant travel, and falling just short (about 1/8 inch) from the full rich stop, also without running out of quadrant travel. The problem seems to be two fold. First, the cable just does not have the length of travel to go stop to stop. The second is the quadrant. (Van's deluxe) I needed to modify it as noted above to accomplish the necessary amount of travel there. Thanks to those who responded. This list is such a great resource. I wanted to post this and get it into the archives so others my benefit in the future. Steve Struyk RV-8, N842S St. Charles, MO Getting close! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Phil Birkelbach" Subject: Re: RV-List: Mixture cable too short? > --> RV-List message posted by: Phil Birkelbach > > It would be helpful to know whether it was the cable or the quadrant > that is causing the problem. If it's the cable then you would need a > shorter mixture arm on the carb / FI servo. If it's the quadrant then > simply move the attach point further out (away from the rotation axis). > > Godspeed, > > Phil Birkelbach - Houston Texas > RV-7 N727WB - Finishing Up > http://www.myrv7.com > > > George Inman wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "George Inman" >> >>I started the engine yesterday for the first time. Big event, and it went >>pretty >>well. I knew before the start that my mixture arm was not quite making it >>to >>the idle cutoff stop but that was a compromise I had to make in order to >>reach >>the full rich stop. I would say the idle stop was short by about 1/8 inch, >>just >>enough to cause the engine to continue to run with the mixture lever off. >>Prior to the start, and months ago while rigging the control cables I >>spent hours >>trying to adjust the cable/rod ends to achieve full travel to both stops >>but >>in the end had to compromise. It appears that the cable, or maybe the >>quadrant, >>does not have enough travel to accomplish both. >> >>I've been in the archives and have seen similar problems but no clues as >>to the >>fix. My thoughts are to perhaps move the attach point up on the mixture >>lever >>(Van's deluxe quadrant, and Cable too), thus providing more travel for any >>given >>lever movement and hopefully attain the little extra needed to hit both >>stops. >>I realize this fix will only work if the quadrant is the problem. But what >>if it's the cable that does not have the necessary travel? >> >>Your thoughts, comments, and suggestions please. >> >>Steve Struyk >>RV-8, N842S >> >> >> Steve >> I have the same problem with >>my RV-8 with bendix fuel inj. In my case it is >>the cables I got from Van's.they have only 2" >>throw.Not enough for the throttle and just barely >>enough for the mixture >> The quadrant has a bit more than 2" throw >>I think I might move the attach point up a bit >>on the throttle arm. >> >>George Inman >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:09 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: RV-List: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" Hey all... I have discounted the price on my GRT Dual Display EFIS... If you're interested check out the details and photos on my web site... http://www.vondane.com/forsale/index.htm Thanks... -Bill do not archive ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 01:43:46 PM PST US From: Skylor Piper Subject: RE: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights: BAD IDEA --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper Glad to hear about change! do not archive --- George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt > AU/XPRR > > Good eye Skylor - > > In the text on the web site, you'll read that I > wasn't satisfied with the > first draft and opted to move the bolt and weights > to the outboard side of > the counterbalance rib. Though not specifically > mentioned, it will also get > safety wire. > > Brad and I have been discussing this very topic > off-list. > > Full page view here: > http://www.appaero.com/emp_fiberlass.htm > > Neal --> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > > > > > Am I the only one who is scared to death by the > washer/bolt idea shown below? If that bolt backs > out > in flight, it will lead to a locked elevator! In my > opinion, that thing absolutely needs to be safety > wired! > > Skylor > RV-8 QB > Under Construction > < > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:58 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 08/19 2:42, Bill VonDane wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" > > Hey all... I have discounted the price on my GRT Dual Display EFIS... > > If you're interested check out the details and photos on my web site... > > http://www.vondane.com/forsale/index.htm Why are you selling? -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 02:28:07 PM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RV-List: Loans --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" I have been asked to find out where those of you financing your planes have gotten your loans. Thanks John ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:49 PM PST US From: "John Furey" Subject: RV-List: Loans --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" Let me clarify, I'm not taking a survey. A friend wants to finance a small portion of his aircraft purchase and is looking for a recommendation on financing. Thanks John ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:29 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RV-List: 2005 Twin Cities fly-in/camp-in --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Mark your calendars for September 10th, 2005! The Minnesota Wing is hosting a flyin/campin at a beautiful private strip just east of the Minneapolis St. Paul area. See: http://www.mnwing.org/Picnic.htm For details. Hope to see you all there! Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 654 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:08 PM PST US From: "Cory Emberson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Loans --> RV-List message posted by: "Cory Emberson" Hi - I did an article on financing homebuilt aircraft (and a follow-up on S-LSA) in Kiplanes magazine (might be in the October 2004 issue). Two companies that handle RVs are: NAFCO (www.airloans.com) and First Pryority Bank in Oklahoma - don't have their contact info, but they're searchable on Google. There are some newer entries into the field for homebuilts that had booths at OSH as well, but I don't have their info offhand. I can list them later on this evening. best, Cory -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of John Furey Subject: RV-List: Loans --> RV-List message posted by: "John Furey" I have been asked to find out where those of you financing your planes have gotten your loans. Thanks John ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:14 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: Re: RV-List: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" I decided to install the Blue Mountain Sport... -Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Tondu" Subject: Re: RV-List: New Grand Rapids Dual Display EFIS For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 08/19 2:42, Bill VonDane wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" > > Hey all... I have discounted the price on my GRT Dual Display EFIS... > > If you're interested check out the details and photos on my web site... > > http://www.vondane.com/forsale/index.htm Why are you selling? -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:04 PM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: Loans --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 08/19 5:26, John Furey wrote: > I have been asked to find out where those of you financing your planes have > gotten your loans. If it was the IRS, don't forward this info. Otherwise, see entry dated 1/13/04 on http://www.rv7-a.com/avionics.htm -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com Flying, HA! ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 04:06:10 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: circuit breaker installation --> RV-List message posted by: I was asked if it made any difference which way a circuit breaker was installed in an RV, e.i., load/source reversed. My breakers are labeled that way, and that's how I wired mine, but I expect that it would not make any difference in the operation of the breaker. Does anyone have any authoritative information? John ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 04:58:00 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" I want this archived. As a FLIGHT LEAD, I WILL NOT fly with someone on my wing that has a vernier throttle. What Mike Stewart said about vernier throttles stands. NO VERNIER THROTTLES!!! Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,749 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" Precise yes, but not quick enough a response when in very close proximity of another A/C. ------- insert -------- the line that was here was removed. ------- end insert ------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Lee To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 11:34 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee If you want precise movements that is what a vernier allows. Seems silly to me so I just won't go. Ron Lee At 08:17 AM 8/19/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > >I made a little clip which holds the pushbutton in on the vernier throttle. >It is easy to manually hold the button in for a few minutes with the palm of >the hand, but it gets tiring after 20 minutes or so. Another thing which I >deem essential for a center throttle and formation flying is an armrest for >the throttle arm. Very precise movements are possible with the throttle >knob in the hand and a finger against the panel. > >Alex Peterson >RV6-A N66AP 654 hours >Maple Grove, MN > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > --> > > > > That's correct Ron. > > They do not allow for the speed and precision required to be > > a safe and proficient formation pilot. > > Mike > > Do not archive. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > I read that planes with vernier throttles are not allowed. > > > > Is that correct? > > > > Ron Lee > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:36 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Photo for presentation --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > >Well I don't think it is an illusion as described in the web page. >I read through all the Hering stuff, including all the secondary pages >and it was a very interesting read. By the time I got done with all >those effects I now wonder if everything I see is an illusion:) > >My wife Michelle took that picture from the beach. While our group from >the Turks and Caicos trip last year (flight of 15 RV's) were sprawled >out on the deck ducking Jimmy Backer and myself buzzing them and tearing >the place up and having a ball. My wife, call sign 'Photo', had the >presence of mind to take the shot and risk life and limb. It is one of >my all time favorites. You might also look closely and see the ailerons >are neutral, stick is neutral in my lap and I don't have inverted oil. >So all you geniuses... How can that be? > >Answer later:) > >Mike >Do not archive >S8 first flight tomorrow if all the planets line up. Yipee! > top of a loop? Charlie ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:50 PM PST US From: "Bill VonDane" Subject: Re: RV-List: Photo for presentation --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill VonDane" Speaking of photos... I could use some flying photos of RV's for my new web site(s)... If you want to contribute please drop me a line... -Bill bill@vondane.com www.epanelbuilder.com www.creativair.com do not archive ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:59 PM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Abilene Formation Clinic, 23-25 Sep --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >It's more of a speed thing then precision... You need to be able to make >changes to the throttle, large or small, without any obstruction or delay... Thanks for the inputs. I know now that there is a way to override the vernier function...unless some think that is unsafe. That formation clinic sounds like a great opportunity for those who attend. I should probably concentrate on finishing my instrument rating first anyway. Ya'll have fun and get some pretty pictures of your graduating formation. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:18 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Shaping the elevator counter weights --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Hi Neal, Thanks for the info. I have not updated any of the pages on my tail kit for a long while - I'm just now digging it out again now that I'm trying to wrap things up. I agree completely with you on using glass to "seal" the tips. I think this is a bad idea. I saw this on another builder's site, and it seemed like a good intro to glass at the time. Too bad I can't undo it, so I kind of need to make it work. About the lead counterweights, I think you understand exactly what I'm trying to do, based on your text below. Thanks again, Mickey George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: George Neal E Capt AU/XPRR > > Hey Mickey - > I hit your site and looked at your emp pages trying to better understand the > question. Do you propose wrapping the forward end of the counterbalance > skin/fiberglass tip in a few layers of glass and relieving the aft end of > the HS skin flange/fiberglass tip to provide the needed clearance? > > Seems like it would work. Given the differences in flexibility and > expansion coefficients, in a lamination of this sort will West 105/205 stay > stuck to the aluminum over the long haul? (I don't know - I have no > experience to support or refute.) > > I'm not exactly surrounded by RVs here in the bowels of Alabama, but the few > that I've been able to give more than a passing glance have had a common > problem. If the counterbalance tips are pop-riveted and then > glassed/bondoed/filled smooth, cracks develop along the joint line where the > fiberglass tip meets the aluminum skin. > > The two that I have been able to go look at when I get stumped (old-style > -8A and -6A) have riveted tips and un-filled joints. > > Errors or shortcomings in the application? Wrong product? Maybe. I'm not > a glass wizard, and it seemed easier to avoid than prevent. And I wanted > the tips removable. So I chose to attach the tips with screws and stop the > bondo at the joint line. > > > neal > RV-7 N8ZG (71771, center fuse) > RV-8 N998GM (85224, skinning wings) > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > > Neal, > > > Quick question on the elevator lead - I was thinking of just > cutting more space on the HS and then building up using > fiberglass over the lead counterweight to make it smooth. > Does this seem like it would work ok? > -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing