Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:27 AM - Re: RV-8A FOR SALE (Ron Lee)
2. 06:29 AM - Re: RV-8A FOR SALE (Ron Lee)
3. 07:20 AM - legal question (flynlow)
4. 08:45 AM - Re: Re:Which spark plug? (Ed Bundy)
5. 08:53 AM - Re: legal question (Hal Rozema)
6. 09:07 AM - Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question (Tim Bryan)
7. 09:12 AM - Re: legal question (jhelms@i1.net)
8. 10:06 AM - Re: Re:Which spark plug? (Sam Buchanan)
9. 01:07 PM - Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question (jhelms@i1.net)
10. 01:59 PM - [ Ed Holyoke ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! (Email List Photo Shares)
11. 03:41 PM - RV-6 For Sale (Pat Hatch)
12. 06:03 PM - Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question (c.ennis)
13. 06:31 PM - Garmin 396 Problem (Larry Pardue)
14. 07:25 PM - Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question (linn walters)
15. 08:06 PM - Cleaning the wing quick drains (Ron Lee)
16. 10:31 PM - Re: Cleaning the wing quick drains (Tim Coldenhoff)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: RV-8A FOR SALE |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Steve, there is a huge difference here. Someone who builds a plane with
the intent
to immediately sell it is not doing it for educational reasons. If they
sell it for the cost
of the components (no profit/labor) then I would agree that it could be for
recreational
purposes.
Ron Lee
At 04:11 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Steve Johnson <rv7pilot2004@yahoo.com>
>
>
>Respectfully ...Give me a break!
>
>
>There are dozen's of experienced RV multi-plane RV builders
>'professionals' out there willing to help RV folks complete their projects
>either at the component level (fuel tanks, fairings, instrument panels
>etc.)(Thank God... I'd have never gotten those fiberglass fairings done!)
>or with hands-on training or help; Doug's web-site lists dozens and we all
>know the names.
>
>
>Additionally, if an individual wants to build an RV and sell it ... it's
>still a 51% completed aircraft by that builder who is now selling his
>airplane. As far as I know there is no 'keep it for a while, then sell it
>rule'.... and there are dozens of RVs for sale. The buyer simply buys a
>finished experimental aircraft from the builder.
>
>
>Are we all going to now modify our signatures 'Legally Built'? What
>happens with I sell this one and build my RV-10. I guess my 7A will be an
>'illegal' RV for the next owner !
>
>
>Steve Johnson
>
>RV7-A Finish Kit "Legally built ... someday Legally for Sale"
>
>
>Man that signature gets long! :-)
>
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>
>Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net> wrote:--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee
>
>Makes you wonder in light of the Epic "homebuilt" issue whether this
>poses negative implications to real homebuilders.
>
>Ron Lee
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
> >Just curious.
> >
> >What's a 'professional RV builder'? Just wondering since we all know
> >that the only legal, professional RV builders out there are Van's
> >prototype shop staffers.
> >
> >Somebody had to say it.
> >
> >Respectfully,
> >Jamie D. Painter
> >RV-7A Fuselage (legally built)
> >http://rv.jpainter.org
> >
> >DO NOT ARCHIVE
> >
> >On Aug 31, 2005, at 8:32 PM, Robert E. Lynch wrote:
> >
> > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Robert E. Lynch"
> > >
> > >
> > > . AVAILABLE FOR SALE . New RV-8A. Under Construction, Available in 2
> > > months or less, (just add your own paint scheme!). IO-360-B1B (180hp),
> > > Hartzell Constant-speed prop, electric trim and flaps, PMA Audio
> > > Panel, GLC-250XL GPS/COM, Garmin 327 Transponder, TruTrak Autopilot
> > > w/Alt hold, RMI engine monitor. Built by professional RV builder. .
> > > Contact Robert Lynch - located Jefferson City, MO USA . Telephone:
> > > 573-893-2291 . $91,000
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: RV-8A FOR SALE |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
PJ, that was original suggestion. Thinking about it last night I would
hope that
the worst that could happen is that the "for profit" builder would not be
able to
get approval to fly the plane and that only he would lose. I can't see real
homebuilders being affected.
Ron Lee
Do not archive
>John,
>
>I can see your point when it comes to people who like to build but not
>fly (and know a couple of great guys who fit into that category),
>although I disagree that this is within the FAA's intent. I don't think
>the FAA designed the FAR with the thought that people would be building
>who had no intent to fly. What's the difference between the 1 man
>operation you describe, and Epic? It becomes even less clear if it's
>not a 1 man operation but a group who enjoy building with no intent to
>fly. Like you said, where do you draw the line?
>
>I guess my point is that as the advertisements get more bold and the
>prices get higher ($200K+ for an RV-10 pre-avionics??) eventually
>someone at the FAA might notice and make a decision that we don't like
>on where to draw that line.
>
>PJ
>
>John Erickson wrote:
>
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "John Erickson" <Droopy@ericksonjc.com>
> >
> >PJ,
> >
> >I agree with you, with conditions.
> >
> >It does depend on why you are building the airplane. I think we need to
> >refer to the FARs instead of the EAA's website in this case. (The EAAs
> >info in this case is great general info, but their wording allows
> >confusion ie "to OPERATE an amateur-built airplane")
> >
> >There are 2 stipulations you sign when you request an airworthiness
> >certificate for your new-born aircraft. You sign that you have built the
> >aircraft for educational and/or recreational purposes. Some people
> >enjoy building MUCH more than flying (I know some builders who medically
> >can't fly). I'd argue these guys are legally building and certificating
> >amateur-built aircraft even if they are completing one a year and
> >selling immediately. And if you are building for recreational purposes
> >and fully intend to sell it when complete, it may be prudent to have a
> >buyer lined up and maybe customize it for them. Learning the different
> >nuances in different avionics from one plane to the next might even be
> >educational...
> >
> >Now, before the flames damage my newly sealed and leak-checked fuel
> >tanks, I also agree that the folks PRODUCING aircraft as a business (not
> >trying to flame genuine builder assist companies, but the guys who are
> >no-kidding building for profit) are really damaging our hobby. Where do
> >you draw the line between recreational building and building for a
> >business purposes? I don't know. It kind of comes down to the DAR
> >looking at the builder and making the call I guess. I do think
> >"Professional" builders are pushing the limits a bit...
> >
> >John
> >#40208 Wings
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of PJ Seipel
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: RV-8A FOR SALE
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: PJ Seipel <seipel@seznam.cz>
> >
> >I would argue that it depends on why you're building it. Are you
> >building it for recreation and educational purposes? Or just to make a
> >profit. If it's for profit then you're skirting the rules. And those
> >who put up advertisements like the one below allowing the buyer to
> >"customize" their RV imply that their motive is profit.
> >
> > From the EAA's webpage:
> >Experimental airworthiness certificates are issued for different
> >purposes. These purposes are: (1) research and development, (2) to
> >conduct flight tests to show compliance with airworthiness regulations,
> >(3) for crew training, (4) for exhibition, (5) for air racing, (6) to
> >conduct market surveys and sales demonstrations, (7) to operate an
> >amateur-built airplane, and (8) to operate a kit-built aircraft that was
> >assembled by a person from a kit manufactured by the holder of a
> >production certificate for that kit.
> >
> >Generally, RV's fall under (7). "Professional" and "amateur" are
> >mutually exclusive. Before you flame me, nowhere did I say you couldn't
> >sell your RV; just that you can't build an RV for the express purpose of
> >selling it, as it appears the gentlemen in the ad below is doing.
> >
> >PJ
> >RV-10 Fuselage
> >#40032
> >do not archive
> >
> >Steve Johnson wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Message 3
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--> RV-List message posted by: "flynlow" <flynlow@usaviator.net>
Do we have any attorneys on this list that could answer a question for me
regarding liability and the sale of a homebuilt airplane? Please contact me
off list if you can give me some advice.
Thanks in advance.
Bud Silvers
Black Forest, Colorado
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re:Which spark plug? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
Thanks for the input Martin. I do most of my flying at 65%, and the hotter
plug makes sense.
BTW, the top rear plugs have always been tricky to replace due to the
proximity of the baffles. I've found a 7/8" socket that is just the right
depth to grab the plug but short enough to fit. And after replacing the
Champions with Unison, I come to discover that the Unison's barrel is about
1/2" LONGER than the Champion, requiring a longer socket that doesn't fit
inside the baffle. Argh.
BTW, for anyone needing plugs, Air Power at www.factoryengines.com is
selling Unison plugs for $8.95 until October 14th (I assume this doesn't
include fine wires). Even with $14(!) shipping, $86 is a terrific price for
a new set of plugs.
Ed Bundy
> I think your choice of spark plug would depend on how hard you run that
> O-320. If you are regularly flying at 75% then go for the colder heat
> range, whereas if you are cruising a lot back at 65%, or have occasional
> plug fouling, then go with the warmer UREM40E's or the ones with the
> extended tip (UREM37BY). I will be trying the Autolite fine wire plugs
> (UREM38S) at the next Annual in my O-320 D1A.
>
--
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hal Rozema <hartist1@cox.net>
Email EAA
lynlow wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "flynlow" <flynlow@usaviator.net>
>
>Do we have any attorneys on this list that could answer a question for me
>regarding liability and the sale of a homebuilt airplane? Please contact me
>off list if you can give me some advice.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Bud Silvers
>Black Forest, Colorado
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6@bryantechnology.com>
I have been meaning to ask this question, but seems now is a good time. I
have an RV-6 almost ready to fly. Taking to the airport on Monday. I have
registered the airplane in my name but now want to transfer it into a
corporation I set up.
What are the consequences of transfering either before the airworthiness or
after? I would prefer to transfer now, but how might this affect the
process? Will I still be able to get the repairmans certificate?
Anyone that could help with these questions, would be appreciated.
Tim
RV-6 N616TB
-------Original Message-------
From: flynlow
Subject: RV-List: legal question
]\
--> RV-List message posted by: "flynlow" <flynlow@usaviator.net>
Do we have any attorneys on this list that could answer a question for me
regarding liability and the sale of a homebuilt airplane? Please contact me
off list if you can give me some advice.
Thanks in advance.
Bud Silvers
Black Forest, Colorado
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: jhelms@i1.net
I know of an article which might help you with some of the concepts.
Check out: http://www.avweb.com/news/avlaw/181900-1.html
That might answer some of your questions.
There are only two aviation insurance policies which offers liability
protection for the sale of the aircraft. One is AVEMCO, and the other is
AIG, and to get that coverage added on AIG's policy one must ask for their
expanded endorsement which costs $65.
It has yet to be tested in court really, but the original intent of that
coverage was for production aircraft (i.e. poor maintenance causing a
failure and subsequent crash with injuries and damage to the plane shortly
after the purchase of the plane). It really has yet to be tested as to
whether or not this coverage would also cover a builder. The language
doesn't specify (which basically means it would be covered.)
I don't believe that was the intent of the insurance companies when they
wrote those coverages, and if (when) it gets tested in court, they'll
likely be forced (by state insurance commissioner or the state courts) to
offer legal defense coverages, and offer up to the limits of the policy
for that liability. Any ambiguity on an insurance policy automatically
goes to the benefit of the insured and they haven't specifically excluded
coverage for one as the builder/assembler of the plane. (see language in
the referenced article for legal definition of Manufacturer, assembler,
etc.)
I believe that shortly after they're forced to defend someone and pay out
for someone's liability as the builder, the companies will likely change
the wording to better define what they intend to cover (and exclude
liabilities incurred as the builder, assembler, and manufacturer.) But
for now, I believe that coverage would cover you under any and all of
those definitions as it's not specifically defined or excluded.
Avemco specifically defines how long after the policy is terminated that
coverage extends (obviously you're going to cancel the policy when you
sell it, and it's obviously a coverage that extends beyond that date.)
Even if you didn't cancel the policy, the coverage technically ends when
you change the ownership of the plane (sign the FAA bill of sale) and
don't notify the insurance company. (so leaving the policy in force
doesn't accomplish anything.)
AIG has told me that all coverages cease when the policy does, but I
believe that would be easily challenged in court as well as it's obviously
a coverage designed to protect you after you sell the plane.
I'm not an attorney, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night... lol.
I am an aviation insurance agent though really. Hope that helps.
JT
> --> RV-List message posted by: "flynlow" <flynlow@usaviator.net>
>
> Do we have any attorneys on this list that could answer a question for me
> regarding liability and the sale of a homebuilt airplane? Please contact
> me
> off list if you can give me some advice.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bud Silvers
> Black Forest, Colorado
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re:Which spark plug? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sam Buchanan <sbuc@hiwaay.net>
Ed Bundy wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
>
> Thanks for the input Martin. I do most of my flying at 65%, and the hotter
> plug makes sense.
>
> BTW, the top rear plugs have always been tricky to replace due to the
> proximity of the baffles. I've found a 7/8" socket that is just the right
> depth to grab the plug but short enough to fit. And after replacing the
> Champions with Unison, I come to discover that the Unison's barrel is about
> 1/2" LONGER than the Champion, requiring a longer socket that doesn't fit
> inside the baffle. Argh.
Ed, on my O-320 I use a 7/8" box-end wrench for the top plugs. If you
are careful not to hit the pushrod tubes with the wrench it works very well.
Sam Buchanan
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: jhelms@i1.net
You may want to find out if you'd have to pay sales tax for the transfer
if you do it after the initial registration.
I've heard of some states doing that.
JT
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6@bryantechnology.com>
>
> I have been meaning to ask this question, but seems now is a good time.
> I
> have an RV-6 almost ready to fly. Taking to the airport on Monday. I
> have
> registered the airplane in my name but now want to transfer it into a
> corporation I set up.
>
> What are the consequences of transfering either before the airworthiness
> or
> after? I would prefer to transfer now, but how might this affect the
> process? Will I still be able to get the repairmans certificate?
>
> Anyone that could help with these questions, would be appreciated.
>
> Tim
> RV-6 N616TB
>
> -------Original Message-------
>
> From: flynlow
> Date: 09/03/05 07:23:59
> To: Rv-List@Matronics. Com
> Subject: RV-List: legal question
> ]\
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "flynlow" <flynlow@usaviator.net>
>
> Do we have any attorneys on this list that could answer a question for me
> regarding liability and the sale of a homebuilt airplane? Please contact
> me
> off list if you can give me some advice.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Bud Silvers
> Black Forest, Colorado
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | [ Ed Holyoke ] : New Email List Photo Share Available! |
--> RV-List message posted by: Email List Photo Shares <pictures@matronics.com>
A new Email List Photo Share is available:
Poster: Ed Holyoke <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
Lists: RV-List
Subject: Archer com antenna in new style wingtip
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/bicyclop@pacbell.net.09.03.2005/index.html
o Main Photo Share Index
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
o Submitting a Photo Share
If you wish to submit a Photo Share of your own, please include the
following information along with your email message and files:
1) Email List or Lists that they are related to:
2) Your Full Name:
3) Your Email Address:
4) One line Subject description:
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic:
6) One-line Description of each photo or file:
Email the information above and your files and photos to:
pictures@matronics.com
Message 11
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" <pat_hatch@msn.com>
I am posting this for a friend. He has decided to sell his RV-6. I believe
him to be the second owner and I know he completely re-worked the panel for
IFR flight.
Here is the information he sent me:
For Sale
RV-6, Full IFR, 478 TT, Lyc O-360 A1A, 478 SMOH, ElectroAir Electronic
Ignition on right side, Hartzell Blended Airfoil C/S Prop, B&C Alternator,
B&C Starter, Dual buss electrical system, Garmin 430 with glide slope & 327
Transponder, King Marker Beacon, All internal antennas, Grand Rapids Tech
EFIS, Digiflight II GSV two axis autopilot, TruTrak T.C., E.I. Fuel Gage and
Super Clock, G Meter, Electric Aileron and Elevator trim, Electric Flaps,
Heated Pitot, Wig-Wag, Andair Fuel Selector, DRE Intercom with ATC playback,
Peltor ANR Headsets with aircraft power supply, Glove Box, JVC Stereo CD
player with Color Graphics, Temper Foam Seats.
Fun, Fast and Economical.
$97,900 Dave 810-423-2304
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Pat Hatch
RV-6
RV-7
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "c.ennis" <c.ennis@insightbb.com>
Gentlemen,
My 6A was signed off as airworthy last year. I am the manufacturer per the
certificate. Logically, I am liable for any defects which can be placed on
my methods of construction or choice of componants. For how long ...I don't
have a clue. Which is why a large percentage of builders never sell their
aircraft.
Secondly I can sell, give away or dispose of the finished aircraft as I
choose, just like any other piece of property, with the exception of the
liability mentioned above.
Of course , that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Charlie Ennis
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Garmin 396 Problem |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Pardue" <n5lp@warpdriveonline.com>
Howdy,
I wrote about my new Garmin 396 recently. Being a fan of both XM and Garmin
I regret having to report on my experience, today, with the fruit of their
labors.
I was enroute to Dallas checking the weather and listening to tunes from my
396 when it appeared to do some kind of reset. I happened to have the XM
audio screen up and the signal strength bars went to zero briefly and all
the audio channel listings disappeared, except for the 2 non-subscription
ones. At this point I still had the weather products. In the spirit of
experimentation I turned the unit off then back on at which point all the
weather products were gone also.
Upon arrival in Dallas I called the subscription number displayed on the
audio screen of the 396. Apparently this number is not for aviation units
and after some waiting the representative gave me another, toll number.
This number was for WxWorx who is closed for the long weekend and, I am
quite sure, have nothing to do with the issue I was experiencing. I didn't
have the number I originally, and at great difficulty, subscribed with.
Finally I hit on the idea of going back in my cell phone calls to find a
likely one. That worked, and I got hold of the correct section of Garmin to
reactivate my unit, but Garmin "is upgrading their computer system this
weekend" and "is unable to access my files." When I got home I used the
Garmin webpage that is for "refreshing" a unit. That didn't work either.
The upshot is I'm paying about $55.00 a month for a safety of flight related
service that abruptly is terminated in flight and they can't even do
anything about it on the ground. No, I'm not too happy about it.
I had read, on the internet, about some pilots experiencing deactivation of
their 396 weather when the airplane and unit were inactive for quite a
while. I got the thing only a week ago and the apparent deactivation
occured while I was using it.
I'm supposed to call THEM on tuesday to try again to get the service I have
prepaid for and yes, they said they would credit me for the time without the
service. Big woop!
Larry Pardue
Carlsbad, NM
RV-6 N441LP Flying
http://n5lp.net
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: legal question - another but maybe not legal question |
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
Many pull the wings and maybe the tail feathers and engine and sell them
as components. Haven't a clue whether this helps or not! ;-)
Linn
do not archive
c.ennis wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "c.ennis" <c.ennis@insightbb.com>
>
>Gentlemen,
> My 6A was signed off as airworthy last year. I am the manufacturer per the
>certificate. Logically, I am liable for any defects which can be placed on
>my methods of construction or choice of componants. For how long ...I don't
>have a clue. Which is why a large percentage of builders never sell their
>aircraft.
> Secondly I can sell, give away or dispose of the finished aircraft as I
>choose, just like any other piece of property, with the exception of the
>liability mentioned above.
>
> Of course , that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
>Charlie Ennis
>Do Not Archive
>
>
>
>
--
Message 15
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| Subject: | Cleaning the wing quick drains |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
There is a guy at Meadow Lake who is a whiz at fabricating things.
One such item is a small rechargeable compressed air can that is
filled using a normal tire chuck. At the top he made a fitting that
will fit in the drain activating hole.
A quickie upthrust to release a small puff of air (I did it twice on my
drains) and a slow leak was fixed. Apparently a small piece of crud
was lodged somewhere which prevented proper sealing of the drain.
Of course I opened the gas cap just in case.
Ron Lee
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Cleaning the wing quick drains |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tim Coldenhoff <rv9a_000@deru.com>
Ron Lee wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee
> A quickie upthrust to release a small puff of air (I did it twice on my
> drains) and a slow leak was fixed. Apparently a small piece of crud
> was lodged somewhere which prevented proper sealing of the drain.
Unless you develop a leak someplace other than home base, my
opinion is it is better to remove the crud from the tank...
I have had chronic issues with those stupid drains since day one.
Every time they get jammed up, I remove them, spill gas all over
myself and clean the valve. My hope is that whatever crud happens
to be in that part of the tank will come out with the gas.
It is really scary what comes out of the tanks, especially after
I thought I had cleaned them up before closing the rear baffle.
Metal chips, sand, little black flecks of proseal. Last time
I had a little hairy maroon fuzzball caught in the drain that was
once part of a Scotchbrite pad (probably the one used to clean the
tanks in the first place...). Usually the crud gets stuck in the
O-ring when the drain closes; it might be difficult for a puff
of air to dislodge it.
I have been tempted to put a small brass ball valve in the tank,
then screw the drain into that. That way I could turn off the
flow to clean the drain when necessary. If they had a self-locking
ball valve, you could do completely away with the drains and bigger
chunks of crud would not be an issue.
--
- Tim Coldenhoff
RV-9a N194TC - Flying!
http://rv9a.deru.com
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