---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 10/01/05: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:51 AM - Re: Fuel Pricing (Chuck Jensen) 2. 05:51 AM - Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection (Glen Matejcek) 3. 05:54 AM - Re: On Vacation - Not RV related (not processed: message from valid local sender) (Chuck Jensen) 4. 08:31 AM - Re: On Vacation - Not RV related (not processed: message from valid local sender) (bertrv6@highstream.net) 5. 09:22 AM - Re: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection (Tracy Crook) 6. 09:59 AM - Re: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection (Mickey Coggins) 7. 11:27 AM - Re: Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection (Jerry2DT@aol.com) 8. 12:55 PM - List responses (Charles heathco) 9. 01:10 PM - Re: List responses (Bob Collins) 10. 02:50 PM - Re: List responses (Charlie England) 11. 03:04 PM - MOGAS/AVGAS (was Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection) (Michael McGee) 12. 06:07 PM - List responses (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 13. 06:11 PM - Re: MOGAS/AVGAS (was Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection) 2.33 FROM_LOCAL_NOVOW... (Fiveonepw@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel Pricing From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Darrell, It's been touched on in earlier posts, but the scenario you point out has one serious trap-door. What if, the day after the FBO buys a tanker load at $3.00 per gallon (which he intended to sell for $3.50/gal), there's news (hypothetical) that reserves in the supply chain were much higher than expected and suddenly, the wholesale price drops to $2.50 and everyone adjusts their selling price to $2.90/gal. So, who's going to bail out the FBO guy who's now lined up to lose about $5,000 by the time his overhead is considered. He wasn't into gouging or collusions, he was just trying to run a fair, honest business. Yet, if he posts gas at $3.50, he'll be accused of gouging and will alienate his customers. I doubt that any of us will line up and offer to pay 60 cents a gallon more to Mr. Unlucky just because he was trying to do the right thing but got caught by price volatility. I submit that a wiser course of action for Mr. Unlucky, that when he saw that replacement fuel was going to cost him substantially more, that he immediately raise his price at least part way to what his new fuel costs would be. The extra revenue will allow him to 1) mute the price increase somewhat when the new load of liquid-gold is delivered or, 2) to maintain, or lower, his price if the next load actually comes in at a somewhat lower cost than anticipated...good marketing strategy that's a fair compromise to both he and his customers. The retailer that gets out of line gets punished by the public, soon rather than later. The oil refiner that gets out of line....just gets rich. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Pricing --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley Hello Lister's, I will vote for gouging on this issue. The profit to be taken on gas should be calculated based on the cost of the product delivered and put in the storage tank. To speculate on an increase will only drive the price higher in the area. If the cost goes up on the next delivery again the profit to be taken should be calculated based on the cost of the product. If you raise the price due to speculation and the cost goes down, how do you refund the money to the consumer that you just gouged them out of? It's all a part of being in business. Yes, I understand that the next delivery may cost you more. It could also cost you less. You will get the return when you sell that product along with a profit. There are meters that tell them how much goes in and out of their tanks. They have the sales information to know when the price should be adjusted up or down. If a business owner is that cash poor needing to gouge the consumer in hopes to help pay for the next load of fuel then they ne ed to find another business. IMHO... Darrell ;-) (do not archive) ejcek wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- First, Do Not Archive. You know, once upon a time, I had a certain limited amount of sympathy for the oil industry given the lack of expansion of refining capacity, significantly increased demand, and the fact that we as a nation still enjoyed some of the cheapest gas on the planet. Three things have happened since then to change my perspective. First, the price of fuel started spiking up and down. This had the effect of somewhat desensitizing us to changes in fuel costs, while at the same time making it harder for us to track the actual average cost of the product over time. Second, a friend who has worked in the field for a long time has gone from being very defensive of the industry to being very critical of it. Last, I've made the acquaintance of a fellow who works in the pipeline division for one of the biggest refiners. All of their fuel comes into our state via pipeline from Texas, and was in no way affected by Katrina. Yet their pricing spiked way up in lock step with all the other refiners, on a product that had been made a while back. Also, given that demand for gasoline is basically inelastic, the normal application of supply and demand doesn't apply. People still have to go to work, the store, etc. There is some flex due to personal conservation, but a tiny fraction of that which Adam Smith would have predicted. I vote for gouging and, and will support the purveyor who gives me the best deal. --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:57 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" -SNIP- It took less than one (1) minute at full power to see the change on the engine monitor EGTs after switching the valve from the avgas tank to the mogas tank. Mike Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 Hi Mike- So, tell us what you saw ! Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:54:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: On Vacation - Not RV related (not processed: message from valid local sender) From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Entrepreneurs want to know; how many trips did he make before he got caught? RVListers want to know; when is the Sheriff's auction? Chuck Do Not Archive Well, an RV-4 owner here in BC was busted for running weed across the border to the US. Apparently he would fill the tail-cone, and fly low across the border to an unmarked field to drop off the load. I don't think he built the airplane, so he may never have hung out here on the RV-Lists. -Rob ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:19 AM PST US From: bertrv6@highstream.net Subject: RE: RV-List: On Vacation - Not RV related (not processed: message from valid local sender) --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Quoting Chuck Jensen : > --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" > > Entrepreneurs want to know; how many trips did he make before he got > caught? RVListers want to know; when is the Sheriff's auction? > > Chuck > Do Not Archive > > Well, an RV-4 owner here in BC was busted for running weed across the > border to the US. Apparently he would fill the tail-cone, and fly low > across the border to an unmarked field to drop off the load. > > I don't think he built the airplane, so he may never have hung out here > on > the RV-Lists. > > -Rob > Could we see the video...?> > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:22:03 AM PST US From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" Just my brief take on it but FWIW: 1. Minimize restrictions of any kind between fuel tank and main fuel pump. Boost pump is a two edged sword here as it is a significant restriction when off. I do not have a boost pump because I consider it a band-aid rather than a solution to the root cause of vapor lock. 2. Keep as much of the system as possible cool. Gascollator on lower firewall near exhaust system is both normal practice and insane. Mine is in the cockpit with a remote drain under the belly. 3. Keep main pump in cool environment. I put the high pressure electric EFI pumps (one for backup) in the cockpit to minimize line lengths and temperature. Many would classify this as 'nuts' but I would rather have my nose detect a fuel leak rather than have a fire under the cowl after the fact. This is of course not possible in most Lycoming installations where the fuel pump is bolted to a hot aircooled engine. NEVER run an EFI pump dry. I have no tank selector valve preferring to draw & return fuel to a single tank (left wing). A Facet pump refills the left from the right when necessary. This also eliminates that decision when low on fuel whether to switch tanks before or after the engine sputters. When low on fuel, I pump every drop to the left. It goes without saying that EFI is very dependant on electricity so plan accordingly. Tracy Crook ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Stringham To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 3:32 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" > Tracy What should be done with the system to or failure points to look for as onbe fabs. the fuel lines. TIA Frank @ SGU and SLC >From: "Tracy Crook" > >Reply-To: rv-list@matronics.com >To: > >Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection >Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:27:50 -0400 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" > > >I use 87 octane auto fuel (any brand, any place) in my fuel injected rotary >(RV-4) and never have had a hint of vapor lock in 1500+ hours. Not an >apples to apples comparison of course but I add this to emphasize that >vapor lock is due mainly to fuel system design, not the fuel. > >No flames intended, but most aircraft fuel systems that I have seen are a >"vapor lock waiting to happen". It only takes a slight change in fuel >vapor pressure to push them over the edge. > >Tracy Crook >RV-4 1500+ Hrs >RV-8 R.S.N. > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Bob >>> > > > >I have a Superior XP-IO360, and they say 91 octane mogas is fine, and >in > >fact they encourage it. I plan to use at home airport for those $$$ >burgers. > >Cross country, where it could pay off better, mostly unavailable. >Totally > >legal > >to use mogas in experimental, btw, IINM... > > > >Jerry Cochran > > Jerry > > I too have an IO-360 that is rated for 91 octane and it is now fuel > injected (used have a carberator). I have not used auto fuel mainly due >to > vapor lock and that is a real problem on hot or even warm days. I get a > lot of surging during taxi back after a few touch and goes. Boost pump >on > helps somewhat but it still surges. > > Does anyone with fuel injection run auto fuel, and what are the pitfalls >to > consider or plan for? > > Bob > RV6 NightFighter > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:59:28 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > 2. Keep as much of the system as possible cool. Gascollator on > lower firewall near exhaust system is both normal practice and > insane. Mine is in the cockpit with a remote drain under the belly. Hi Tracy, Thanks for the info. We spoke briefly at SNF about your fuel system, but I didn't realize you have a gascolator. Do you often find water there? I was under the impression that a gascolator was not needed in EFI applications, based on articles like this: http://www.rv8.ch/staticpages/index.php?page=20030914230507849 Are you planning on a gascolator in your 8? I certainly bow to your vast experience in this domain, and appreciate the opportunity to benefit from your experience. Best regards, Mickey -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:27:35 AM PST US From: Jerry2DT@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re: Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com Does anyone firesleeve or otherwise insulate the small injector lines? Seems like this might help. Jerry Cochran Wilsonville, OR In a message dated 10/1/2005 12:00:16 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, rv-list-digest@matronics.com writes: From: "Tracy Crook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: "Tracy Crook" I use 87 octane auto fuel (any brand, any place) in my fuel injected rotary (RV-4) and never have had a hint of vapor lock in 1500+ hours. Not an apples to apples comparison of course but I add this to emphasize that vapor lock is due mainly to fuel system design, not the fuel. No flames intended, but most aircraft fuel systems that I have seen are a "vapor lock waiting to happen". It only takes a slight change in fuel vapor pressure to push them over the edge. Tracy Crook RV-4 1500+ Hrs RV-8 R.S.N. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:55:54 PM PST US From: "Charles heathco" Subject: RV-List: List responses autolearn=unavailable version=3.0.2 --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles heathco" Ive ben on the list now for about a year. have a 6a which I am working on and doing stuff to all the time, didnt build it, but am a 66 yr old gutsy type who will take on anything, and have done quite a few things to upgrade "Tweetybird". I wanted to ask a generic question.... Why is it that we can have 75 responses to gas prices crap, 100 responses to another piece of usless drivel, and maybe one or two responses to a question relating to fixing an actual problem with our birds????????????? Charlie Heathco. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:12 PM PST US From: "Bob Collins" Subject: RE: RV-List: List responses --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob Collins" I've always been very impressed with the assistance I've gotten from the folks here whenever I've asked for advice. But then again, I didn't make fun of them before I asked them for help.(g) Bob Do Not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Charles heathco Subject: RV-List: List responses --> RV-List message posted by: "Charles heathco" Ive ben on the list now for about a year. have a 6a which I am working on and doing stuff to all the time, didnt build it, but am a 66 yr old gutsy type who will take on anything, and have done quite a few things to upgrade "Tweetybird". I wanted to ask a generic question.... Why is it that we can have 75 responses to gas prices crap, 100 responses to another piece of usless drivel, and maybe one or two responses to a question relating to fixing an actual problem with our birds????????????? Charlie Heathco. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:53 PM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: List responses --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Charles heathco wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Charles heathco" > >Ive ben on the list now for about a year. have a 6a which I am working on and doing stuff to all the time, didnt build it, but am a 66 yr old gutsy type who will take on anything, and have done quite a few things to upgrade "Tweetybird". I wanted to ask a generic question.... Why is it that we can have 75 responses to gas prices crap, 100 responses to another piece of usless drivel, and maybe one or two responses to a question relating to fixing an actual problem with our birds????????????? Charlie Heathco. > Just be grateful you *don't* get 100 different opinions on the right way to do something that actually matters. Go to the archives & search 'primer'. :-) You never know where & when you'll learn something new or discover another way of looking at something. And if a thread has absolutely no interest to you, download each day's messages, click on the tab over the list of message headers (causes a sort by subject), & delete all the messages with that subject line & move on. Charlie Head for Slobovia Outernational (MS71, Jackson MS) Oct 22 for some pulled pork. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:04:25 PM PST US From: Michael McGee Subject: RV-List: MOGAS/AVGAS (was Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection) 2.33 FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL From: localpart has series of non-vowel letters --> RV-List message posted by: Michael McGee This was the AutoFuel/Fuel Injection thread... At 05:50 2005-10-01, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" > > >-SNIP- > > >It took less than one (1) minute at full power to see the change on >the engine monitor EGTs after switching the valve from the avgas tank >to the mogas tank. > >Mike >Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR >13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 > > >Hi Mike- > >So, tell us what you saw ! > > >Glen Matejcek >aerobubba@earthlink.net I figured someone would come up with that question P-). When I've got some recorded numbers to show I'll put it up on my web space. Suffice it to say that before I had my data recorder I saw about 30 deg F COOLER EGT on 100LL than I saw on 87 oct brand Ch mogas. Now on my 150 hp 7:1 compression Lyc that didn't make much sense to me. The higher octane should be still burning going past the EGT probe unlike the lower octane gas that should have all burned in the cylinder. I'm getting set up to do another run and will have EGT and CHT numbers to compare. This time with my EI data recorder to show me the numbers after the flight is over. Stay tuned. Mike McGee, RV-4 N996RV, O320-E2G, Hillsboro, OR 13B in gestation mode, RD-1C, EC-2 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:07:12 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: List responses --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Folks, I ain't pickin' on anyone in particular here, but as a group we have become so inconsiderate and sloppy- I don't mind the op-eds as I know exactly where the delete key is, but PLEASE listers, how can we spend so much time typing and be so thoughtless or lazy as to not take the 5 seconds or so to type "do not archive" anywhere in the body of these discussions? Anyone else who's waded through the ever expanding archives looking for a simple answer to a relevant item knows exactly what I mean- I'm almost wishing Matt would include a "do not archive" in all message headers so folks who had worthwhile contributions could simple delete those three simple words for the benefit of the rest of us... Sorry for the rantlet & DO NOT ARCHIVE! Mark Phillips - long time lister & apologies for being a listcop... ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:38 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: MOGAS/AVGAS (was Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection) 2.33 FROM_LOCAL_NOVOW... --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 10/01/2005 4:05:14 PM Central Standard Time, jmpcrftr@teleport.com writes: I'm getting set up to do another run and will have EGT and CHT numbers to compare. This time with my EI data recorder to show me the numbers after the flight is over. Stay tuned. >>> Thanks Mike, eagerly awaiting test results- I've never really noticed the difference when running the two and will do similar testing on my E3D with EIS4000 as I also use 100LL for TO & landing, mogas the rest of the time (when I can find it!). Mark - do not archive