---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/05/05: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:06 AM - Re: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection () 2. 04:49 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 3. 05:48 AM - Sealer on Whelen strobe lights (owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com) 4. 06:31 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Ron Lee) 5. 06:32 AM - Re: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights (RV Builder (Michael Sausen)) 6. 07:13 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (D.Bristol) 7. 07:30 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Richard Dudley) 8. 07:32 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (LessDragProd@aol.com) 9. 07:42 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 10. 08:09 AM - Re: Fuel Caps (owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com) 11. 08:11 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (LessDragProd@aol.com) 12. 08:12 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Ron Lee) 13. 08:17 AM - New MT prop (Karen and Robert Brown) 14. 08:22 AM - Re: Canopy Part Numbers (Karen and Robert Brown) 15. 09:44 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Rob Prior (rv7)) 16. 10:40 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Larry Pardue) 17. 11:07 AM - Re: Zero Thrust (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 18. 02:18 PM - Re: Zero Thrust (Kevin Horton) 19. 03:09 PM - Re: Zero Thrust (Tim Bryan) 20. 03:48 PM - Re: anodizing engine baffles () 21. 05:31 PM - Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip (Bryan Hooks) 22. 05:39 PM - Re: Wing tip com antenna (DWAIN HARRIS) 23. 06:09 PM - Re: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip (Ed Anderson) 24. 06:13 PM - Re: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights (Dick DeCramer) 25. 06:33 PM - Re: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip (LarryRobertHelming) 26. 06:40 PM - Re: Wing tip com antenna (LarryRobertHelming) 27. 07:19 PM - Re: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip (Dan Checkoway) 28. 07:46 PM - Re: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights (David Burton) 29. 07:54 PM - Re: Zero Thrust (D.Bristol) 30. 08:04 PM - Re: Wing tip com antenna (GMC) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:06:19 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: Re:Auto Fuel/Fuel Injection --> RV-List message posted by: > > I agree that the gascolator may be un-needed (as long as you have > > good tank drains). > > Unless you're building in Canada, in which case not installing a Gascolator > is not an option. Every Amateur-Built aircraft in Canada requires a > Gascolator as per the CARs. > That's interesting. I know you guys are talking about fuel injected engines, vapor locking, etc.; but, my factory built AA-5A Grumman-American Cheetah did not have a gascolator. In fact, I used that information to not install a gascolator in my RV. I had one in my C172 and had no trouble with it; but, others had leak problems. I do have the same type fuel pump as in the Cheetah, that being the round type Facet with a small screen in the bottom. That is inspected at each annual. Rarely do I find so much as a drop of water in the pump. Never do I find junk in the screen. I also use auto gas. Jim Sears in KY RV-6A N198JS (Scooter) RV-7A #70317 EAA Tech Counselor ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:49:34 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Zero Thrust From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Since an actual engine out would put most c/s props to fine pitch, why would anyone care where zero thrust is since you cant get it in an engine out condition anyway? And isn't a fp prop producing thrust at any speed at which the engine is turning? Guess I just don't see the point. Mike Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Point Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point I guess I am with Ron. What does zero thrust mean? Zero thrust is the condition where the thrust from the prop (under very slight power) is equal to the drag of the prop disc. It is meant to simulate a dead engine/ stopped prop condition. It is used often in multi-engine training to simulate an engine out, without actually shutting down the engine. If one were to simply shut down the engine, the drag from the windmilling prop would be much more than the drag of a stopped prop, so just killing the engine is not "zero-thrust." Jeff Point RV-6 Milwaukee > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:48:08 AM PST US From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com Subject: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights --> RV-List message posted by: Listers, I just received my Whelen strobe lights. They are sealed with some white ProSeal like, Sikaflex like substance which is quite rubbery and which seems perfect for preserving wires from chaffing against each other as they come out of connectors or pass through grommets. Any of you guys have an idea as to what Whelen might have used ? Or could you recommend a similar product ? Thanks, Michele RV8 - Fuselage ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:31:05 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee Can someone explain what relevance "zero thrust" has to flying an aircraft? What practical application does it have? Ron Lee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights From: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" --> RV-List message posted by: "RV Builder (Michael Sausen)" E6000, Goop, ShoGoo will do the job just as well. Michael Sausen -10 #352 Flaps Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] Subject: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights --> RV-List message posted by: Listers, I just received my Whelen strobe lights. They are sealed with some white ProSeal like, Sikaflex like substance which is quite rubbery and which seems perfect for preserving wires from chaffing against each other as they come out of connectors or pass through grommets. Any of you guys have an idea as to what Whelen might have used ? Or could you recommend a similar product ? Thanks, Michele RV8 - Fuselage ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:13:08 AM PST US From: "D.Bristol" Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" A C/S prop is still controllable to some degree as long as you have oil pressure. If you don't have oil pressure, then the prop will be stopped shortly anyway, so it makes little difference. If you're going fast enough, any prop will drive the engine when the power is off. It's like letting off the throttle in your car when the car is moving, you get engine braking. The prop does the same thing. Zero thrust is the point where the prop is not pulling or braking the airplane. Dave Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > >Since an actual engine out would put most c/s props to fine pitch, why >would anyone care where zero thrust is since you cant get it in an >engine out condition anyway? > >And isn't a fp prop producing thrust at any speed at which the engine is >turning? > >Guess I just don't see the point. > >Mike >Do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Point >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > >I guess I am with Ron. What does zero thrust mean? > >Zero thrust is the condition where the thrust from the prop (under very >slight power) is equal to the drag of the prop disc. It is meant to >simulate a dead engine/ stopped prop condition. It is used often in >multi-engine training to simulate an engine out, without actually >shutting down the engine. If one were to simply shut down the engine, >the drag from the windmilling prop would be much more than the drag of a > >stopped prop, so just killing the engine is not "zero-thrust." > >Jeff Point >RV-6 >Milwaukee > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:17 AM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Listers, Thanks for the many responses. This was not intended as a trick question. My apologies for not expanding on the reasons for the question. The CAFE report on the -6A described the use of microswitches to detect when the force on the crankshaft shifted from "tractoring" to "windmilling". They considered that transition to be "zero thrust" and that the plane simulated a pure glider without securing the engine. Years ago in Navy flight training in the SNJ (T6) there was a power setting that was considered neither drag or thrust from the propeller. This was used for engine out practice (assuming that the propeller could be stopped from windmilling in the real case). In the recent past on this list there was a thread about engine out glide performance with and without a windmilling prop where some had actually done the experiment with the engine secured. (Kevin's comment: " isn't for the faint at heart".) So, my question was intended to ask if anyone had determined a condition (with the engine running) at which the glide performance was similar to that with engine out and non-windmilling prop. There seems to be a common belief that the sink rate with a constant speed prop at idle is higher than a similar plane with a fixed pitch prop. This suggests higher drag from the constant speed prop and that some increase in manifold pressure short of adding thrust would result in eliminating the effect of the prop. Regards, Richard Dudley Ron Lee wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > >>Has anyone done the testing to determine a power setting for zero thrust >>in an RV-6 or -6A? >> >> > >Maybe this is a trick question but sounds like engine off. > >Ron Lee > >Do Not Archive > > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:32:23 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com Zero thrust is normally used to determine the total aircraft drag. Regards, Jim Ayers Do Not Archive In a message dated 10/05/2005 6:33:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ronlee@pcisys.net writes: --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee Can someone explain what relevance "zero thrust" has to flying an aircraft? What practical application does it have? Ron Lee Do not archive ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Zero Thrust From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Ok I get what Zero thrust is. But again: Whats the point of caring what it is? What does knowing it do for me? What change in decisioning would I make if I knew it? And as a note: On my c/s prop at best glide engine off, I can not make my prop change pitch. Moving blue knob does nothing while prop is windmilling. Mike S8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of D.Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" A C/S prop is still controllable to some degree as long as you have oil pressure. If you don't have oil pressure, then the prop will be stopped shortly anyway, so it makes little difference. If you're going fast enough, any prop will drive the engine when the power is off. It's like letting off the throttle in your car when the car is moving, you get engine braking. The prop does the same thing. Zero thrust is the point where the prop is not pulling or braking the airplane. Dave Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > >Since an actual engine out would put most c/s props to fine pitch, why >would anyone care where zero thrust is since you cant get it in an >engine out condition anyway? > >And isn't a fp prop producing thrust at any speed at which the engine is >turning? > >Guess I just don't see the point. > >Mike >Do not archive > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Point >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust > >--> RV-List message posted by: Jeff Point > >I guess I am with Ron. What does zero thrust mean? > >Zero thrust is the condition where the thrust from the prop (under very >slight power) is equal to the drag of the prop disc. It is meant to >simulate a dead engine/ stopped prop condition. It is used often in >multi-engine training to simulate an engine out, without actually >shutting down the engine. If one were to simply shut down the engine, >the drag from the windmilling prop would be much more than the drag of a > >stopped prop, so just killing the engine is not "zero-thrust." > >Jeff Point >RV-6 >Milwaukee > > > >> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:09:12 AM PST US From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com Subject: RE: RV-List: Fuel Caps --> RV-List message posted by: I thought that people who hang around GA airplanes were a fine lot. In our little airport in France, we have approximately 100 airplanes, 40 of which are homebuilts. People tend to know each other as there are a lot of old pilots. Things were fine in the best of possible worlds 'till one day, someone, while fueling up, discovered some white crystalline stuff at the fuel tank entrance on a DR400. Upon closer examination, it turned out to be sugar. Believe or not, we found three airplanes with over a pound of sugar in the gas tanks, one of which flew for an hour - mercifully, sugar does not seem to disolve in gazoline, and the filters got it. Of coures, this is criminal and there is an investigation by our local Gendarmerie to uncover who did this. Believe me, we were p?"&x@ed. Furthermore, the price of gazoline is bound to go up some. These two facts convinced me that there is definite valu in installing lockable gas caps. I installed Van's deluxe caps on my RV8, they look great, a lot better than the standard offering. I have not flown with them but they passed the tank leaks test with flying colors. That's my two cents worth. Michele RV8 Fuselage -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed OConnor Subject: RV-List: Fuel Caps --> RV-List message posted by: Ed OConnor I installed them on my RV-8 and they were simple to install (used Proseal) and they sealed with no problem. Very high quality. Only down side is they do restrict the size of the opening slightly but no problem for normal nozzle or gas can spout. They look great and with the price of 100LL it is good you can lock them up. --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Lewis G'day all, Does anyone have experience with the Deluxe Fuel Caps available from Vans. I am interested in knowing how they look and how well they seal in comparison to the standard caps. I wouldn't mind the ability to lock my tanks. Have fun, Scott Lewis RV-10 40172 VH-DRS Adelaide, South Australia ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:21 AM PST US From: LessDragProd@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com Hi All, I believe it takes about 1300 RPM for the governor to have control of the propeller. I believe you will see the propeller windmilling at around 1000 RPM in low pitch. So it isn't going to work to try to reduce the RPM with coarse pitch on a standard CS propeller. The counterweighted blade CS propeller operates from coarse pitch (low RPM), instead of fine pitch (high RPM). With the same best glide engine off situation, the counterweighted blades automatically go towards coarse pitch (low RPM) providing a 67% decrease in propeller drag (on MT propellers). Regards, Jim Ayers In a message dated 10/05/2005 7:43:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mstewart@iss.net writes: --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Ok I get what Zero thrust is. But again: Whats the point of caring what it is? What does knowing it do for me? What change in decisioning would I make if I knew it? And as a note: On my c/s prop at best glide engine off, I can not make my prop change pitch. Moving blue knob does nothing while prop is windmilling. Mike S8 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:12:16 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee I am a bit slow with some concepts so bear with me. It seems like this zero thrust issue may be relevant to determining engine out glide path. I am still unclear on the real world implication. Assume you lose power and lower the nose to near best glide speed. Won't the prop continue to turn? If so, how is that tied to zero thrust? I have a fixed pitch prop. Ron Lee Do not archive since I don't want my ignorance recorded for posterity. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:48 AM PST US From: "Karen and Robert Brown" Subject: RV-List: New MT prop --> RV-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" I am so stoked, I just installed the new MT 2 blade prop on my RV7A (MTV15B). Wow, what a thing of beauty. It came with a beautiful spinner, backing plate, all cut and fitted and painted. No RPM restriction on a Lyc, blended airfoil, all aluminum hub and blades, lighter than a Hartzell. It looks fast just sitting there! Bob Brown RV7A - fitting cowl do not archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:22:01 AM PST US From: "Karen and Robert Brown" Subject: Re: RV-List: Canopy Part Numbers --> RV-List message posted by: "Karen and Robert Brown" Hey John- I know exactly what you're talking about. In my case, I am lucky that there are about 35 RV's on the field here. After I had spent about...20 hrs messing with the frame and finally ready to give up and modify the plane so I just used a windscreen, one of my neighbors showed up, got western with the frame and in 10 minutes it was fitted. I used adhesive on the canopy and skirts and am real happy with the fit. Keep after it and see if you can find another builder to look it over and give you an opinion and some support. Bob Brown RV-7A - fitting cowl - the last 99% do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:37 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 8:10:46 2005-10-05 Ron Lee wrote: > I am a bit slow with some concepts so bear with me. > It seems like this zero thrust issue may be relevant to > determining engine out glide path. I am still unclear > on the real world implication. Assume you lose power > and lower the nose to near best glide speed. Won't the > prop continue to turn? If so, how is that tied to zero thrust? > I have a fixed pitch prop. Unless you have a wooden prop or some kind of catastrophic failure within your engine case, your prop is likely to keep turning unless you actively try to stop it. A wooden prop has a lot less momentum in it, if you apply almost *any* back pressure on the stick with the engine stopped, the prop will stop turning very quickly. A metal prop will take more of a nose-up attitude to get the blades to stop turning. If you are reasonably high when you have an engine failure, you will be better off stopping the prop first before starting your glide. You may increase your range considerably. The trade-off is that you will first lose some airspeed while you're stopping the prop, then some altitude when you regain your glide speed. I haven't run the numbers on an RV, but I did do it for a Cessna 150 (with a metal prop) a while ago, and my recollection was that the "break even" point was very near 2000'. Over 2000', I could stretch my glide by stopping the prop. Under 2000', I get a longer glide by riding it down. And it's a lot safer to try these things than people think. Take your plane up to 5000' sometime, and pull the mixture. Engine stops. Push it in again. Engine starts. Prop keeps turning either way. Do it again, and this time pull the nose up until the prop stops. Then you can either push the nose down to get the prop to start spinning, or flick your starter, and push the mixture back in. The engine will start right up. -Rob ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:02 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust From: Larry Pardue --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue On 10/5/05 8:27 AM, "Richard Dudley" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley > > Listers, > Thanks for the many responses. > This was not intended as a trick question. > My apologies for not expanding on the reasons for the question. > The CAFE report on the -6A described the use of microswitches to detect > when the force on the crankshaft shifted from "tractoring" to > "windmilling". They considered that transition to be "zero thrust" and > that the plane simulated a pure glider without securing the engine. > Years ago in Navy flight training in the SNJ (T6) there was a power > setting that was considered neither drag or thrust from the propeller. > This was used for engine out practice (assuming that the propeller could > be stopped from windmilling in the real case). > In the recent past on this list there was a thread about engine out > glide performance with and without a windmilling prop where some had > actually done the experiment with the engine secured. (Kevin's comment: I did a very rough experiment at one speed where I compared engine at idle, engine shut off but propeller windmilling and propeller stopped. There were the expected differences, but they were not of a large magnitude. Should be in the archives somewhere. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying, Fixed Pitch Sensenich http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:07 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Zero Thrust From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" The difference between stopped and the slow windmill at my best glide was negligible on my fat blade hartzell c/s prop. I agree with the previous post about stopping the prop. I decided if I have over 3k'agl, I would pitch up to stop the prop then resume best glide. Requires stick nearly in my lap on the 8 do it and not something I would be comfortable doing below 3k'. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Larry Pardue Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Pardue On 10/5/05 8:27 AM, "Richard Dudley" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley > > Listers, > Thanks for the many responses. > This was not intended as a trick question. > My apologies for not expanding on the reasons for the question. > The CAFE report on the -6A described the use of microswitches to detect > when the force on the crankshaft shifted from "tractoring" to > "windmilling". They considered that transition to be "zero thrust" and > that the plane simulated a pure glider without securing the engine. > Years ago in Navy flight training in the SNJ (T6) there was a power > setting that was considered neither drag or thrust from the propeller. > This was used for engine out practice (assuming that the propeller could > be stopped from windmilling in the real case). > In the recent past on this list there was a thread about engine out > glide performance with and without a windmilling prop where some had > actually done the experiment with the engine secured. (Kevin's comment: I did a very rough experiment at one speed where I compared engine at idle, engine shut off but propeller windmilling and propeller stopped. There were the expected differences, but they were not of a large magnitude. Should be in the archives somewhere. Larry Pardue Carlsbad, NM RV-6 N441LP Flying, Fixed Pitch Sensenich http://n5lp.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:18:04 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 5 Oct 2005, at 10:41, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Ok I get what Zero thrust is. But again: > Whats the point of caring what it is? What does knowing it do for me? > What change in decisioning would I make if I knew it? > > > And as a note: > On my c/s prop at best glide engine off, I can not make my prop change > pitch. Moving blue knob does nothing while prop is windmilling. > > Mike > S8 It is useful to know how to simulate a zero thrust condition if you have a multi-engined aircraft where you would feather the prop after an engine failure. For training, you would put the simulated failed engine in a zero thrust condition, rather than shut it down and feather the prop. For single-engined aircraft, people generally do the training with the engine at idle. If the prop stops in a real engine failure, the glide performance will be a bit different than it was during training with engine at idle. But, the real problem is what happens if the engine fails and the prop keeps windmilling. A windmilling constant- speed prop will create a lot more drag than was seen during training with engine at idle. I can see the value in finding a condition that will simulate a windmilling prop (e.g. with partial flaps and power, to simulate flaps up with failed engine and windmilling prop). I don't immediately see the value in simulating a zero thrust condition. But maybe I am missing something. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:09:07 PM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Another thought. I was taught during primary training in a fixed pitch prop airplane to set the throttle to zero thrust when abreast of the runway for landing. The theory, I guess, was that if the airplane was in landing configuration with zero thrust then if the engine quit you wouldn't have much change in your approach for landing. Like I said, I guess, because I certainlyh didn't understand much at that stage of the game. I been flying mostly constant speed since then so it isn't as relavant. Tim -------Original Message------- From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 5 Oct 2005, at 10:41, Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta) wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" > > > Ok I get what Zero thrust is. But again: > Whats the point of caring what it is? What does knowing it do for me? > What change in decisioning would I make if I knew it? > > > And as a note: > On my c/s prop at best glide engine off, I can not make my prop change > pitch. Moving blue knob does nothing while prop is windmilling. > > Mike > S8 It is useful to know how to simulate a zero thrust condition if you have a multi-engined aircraft where you would feather the prop after an engine failure. For training, you would put the simulated failed engine in a zero thrust condition, rather than shut it down and feather the prop. For single-engined aircraft, people generally do the training with the engine at idle. If the prop stops in a real engine failure, the glide performance will be a bit different than it was during training with engine at idle. But, the real problem is what happens if the engine fails and the prop keeps windmilling. A windmilling constant- speed prop will create a lot more drag than was seen during training with engine at idle. I can see the value in finding a condition that will simulate a windmilling prop (e.g. with partial flaps and power, to simulate flaps up with failed engine and windmilling prop). I don't immediately see the value in simulating a zero thrust condition. But maybe I am missing something. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:12 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: anodizing engine baffles --> RV-List message posted by: Anodized can cause cracking if not done properly. It is called hydrogen embittlment. If done properly the change in fatigue life is small, but it is not the ideal finish. It all depends on the surface and material. If you bead shot blast a surface you can improve fatigue and crack resistance, but that does not make sense for a clad aluminum material. Bare aluminum yes you can peen the surface. However we are talking about sheet metal and there is not a lot you can do because shot blasting can warp it. In a message dated 9/27/2005 5:04:08 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, sarg314@comcast.net writes: I am just starting on my engine baffles. I saw another builder's plane which had the baffles blue anodized and it looks good. However, anodizing hardens the surface and might make it more prone to crack. I'm just guessing here. Does any one have any experience with this? Are there planes with hundreds of hours on them with anodized baffled that haven't cracked? --------------------------------- Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 05:31:10 PM PST US From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip --> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" Searched the archives with no luck so I thought I'd toss this out to everyone - The roll bar on my 7A tip-up is not terrible, but it's not a work of art either. So, I am considering putting a strip of fiberglass over the aft end of the tip-up canopy to 'hide' it. It would be about 2-3 inches wide, overhang the aft window by about a half and inch, and would only be attached to the tip up portion. I was thinking that this might also prevent leaks between the aft window and the tip up, as well as eliminate or reduce wind noise since there is a small gap between the two halves. A friend did this, and it blew off in-flight fairly quickly. As a result, he suggests using screws to ensure a permanent attachment. Anyone have any recommendations regarding this, or reasons not to use the glass at all? Since the strip would not be attached to the aft window, would air pressure or wind try to get underneath it from the back and try to rip it off or crack of chunks and pieces? Thanks in advance. Bryan Hooks RV-7A tip-up, finish kit, slow-build Knoxville, TN ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:39:27 PM PST US From: "DWAIN HARRIS" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna --> RV-List message posted by: "DWAIN HARRIS" Hey Jim ,My has worked great for the last 7yrs Dwain Harris RV-6 N164DH Tehachapi, Ca ----- Original Message ----- From: AYRES, JIMMY L To: 'rv-list@matronics.com' Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:06 AM Subject: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna --> RV-List message posted by: "AYRES, JIMMY L" > Hey Guys, I am conducting a survey. Does anyone out there flying have a wing tip installed com antenna? If so does it work? Well? Thanks for your feedback. Jimmy Ayres RV7AQB Hey Guys, I am conducting a survey. Does anyone out there flying have a wing tip installed com antenna? If so does it work? Well? Thanks for your feedback. Jimmy Ayres RV7AQB ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:31 PM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" For what its worth, Bryan. I installed an aluminum strip 3" wide of 0.032 2024T3 on the aft end of my tip-up. It overhangs the back part by approx 1 1/2", hides my not so even canopy cut and keeps the wind/rain out. I installed mine before pop riveting the canopy to the frame, so could use the same pop rivets as held the canopy. Have 300 hours on it with no problem. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Hooks" Subject: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > Searched the archives with no luck so I thought I'd toss this out to > everyone - > > The roll bar on my 7A tip-up is not terrible, but it's not a work of art > either. So, I am considering putting a strip of fiberglass over the aft > end of the tip-up canopy to 'hide' it. It would be about 2-3 inches > wide, overhang the aft window by about a half and inch, and would only > be attached to the tip up portion. I was thinking that this might also > prevent leaks between the aft window and the tip up, as well as > eliminate or reduce wind noise since there is a small gap between the > two halves. > > A friend did this, and it blew off in-flight fairly quickly. As a > result, he suggests using screws to ensure a permanent attachment. > Anyone have any recommendations regarding this, or reasons not to use > the glass at all? > > Since the strip would not be attached to the aft window, would air > pressure or wind try to get underneath it from the back and try to rip > it off or crack of chunks and pieces? > > Thanks in advance. > > Bryan Hooks > RV-7A tip-up, finish kit, slow-build > Knoxville, TN > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:25 PM PST US From: "Dick DeCramer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights --> RV-List message posted by: "Dick DeCramer" I thought the sealer on the strobes was just silicon but I really don't know. However, I have the good fortune of being based at an airport that has a Cirrus approved warranty maintenance center and get to see how Cirrus Aircraft are constructed. All wires and push/pull controls which pass through the firewall have a stainless steel cover over a rubber grommet covered with a healthy dab of red high temperature silicone. They also have conduits to run wires through and they place a dab at the end of the conduit enclosing the wires as well. I did that on my RV6 and found it relieves strain on the wires, keeps chaffing down and it can be easily cut away if need be to rewire if you wish. Dick DeCramer RV6 N500DD 90 hours Northfield, MN > > Subject: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights > > --> RV-List message posted by: > > Listers, > > I just received my Whelen strobe lights. They are sealed with some white > ProSeal like, Sikaflex like substance which is quite rubbery and which seems > perfect for preserving wires from chaffing against each other as they come > out of connectors or pass through grommets. Any of you guys have an idea as > to what Whelen might have used ? Or could you recommend a similar product ? > > Thanks, > Michele > RV8 - Fuselage > > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 06:33:25 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" There is discussion in the archives on this. Search for targa strip. It should be built as you describe. Attach with adhesive and use the screws that hold the canopy glass on the roll over bar. You may need screws that are about 1/8" longer than supplied with kit. Lots of tip ups have this strip. Carefully done and finished it will enhance the looks of your plane and be functional for keeping water and wind out. It will also hide any unsightly damage or work. I for instance have both corners at the bottom with cracks where the canopy glass edge has touched the metal skin while closing. The targa strip will hide that. Indiana Larry in Evansville, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker 65 hours and still grinning......... ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" > > Searched the archives with no luck so I thought I'd toss this out to > everyone - > > The roll bar on my 7A tip-up is not terrible, but it's not a work of art > either. So, I am considering putting a strip of fiberglass over the aft > end of the tip-up canopy to 'hide' it. It would be about 2-3 inches > wide, overhang the aft window by about a half and inch, and would only > be attached to the tip up portion. I was thinking that this might also > prevent leaks between the aft window and the tip up, as well as > eliminate or reduce wind noise since there is a small gap between the > two halves. > > A friend did this, and it blew off in-flight fairly quickly. As a > result, he suggests using screws to ensure a permanent attachment. > Anyone have any recommendations regarding this, or reasons not to use > the glass at all? > > Since the strip would not be attached to the aft window, would air > pressure or wind try to get underneath it from the back and try to rip > it off or crack of chunks and pieces? > > Thanks in advance. > > Bryan Hooks > RV-7A tip-up, finish kit, slow-build > Knoxville, TN ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:40 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" There should be some discussions in the archive on this. But a quick answer based on my research before I installed a bent antenna on the bottom of my plane was that the wing tip concealed antenna works nicely except sometimes when the antenna is on the opposite side away from where you need to communicate. This situation could be plane to plane communications ( hearing another plane near you making an announcement) or ATC that you are required to communicate with when in controlled airspace. I liked the idea of a concealed antenna, but I did not like the idea of the consequences of what might happen if I missed a call or could not be heard when making a broadcast. Indiana Larry in Evansville, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker ----- Original Message ----- From: "DWAIN HARRIS" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna > --> RV-List message posted by: "DWAIN HARRIS" > > Hey Jim ,My has worked great for the last 7yrs > Dwain Harris > RV-6 N164DH > Tehachapi, Ca > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: AYRES, JIMMY L > To: 'rv-list@matronics.com' > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 11:06 AM > Subject: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "AYRES, JIMMY L" > > > > Hey Guys, > > > I am conducting a survey. Does anyone out there flying have a wing tip > installed com antenna? If so does it work? Well? > > > Thanks for your feedback. > > > Jimmy Ayres > > RV7AQB > > > > > > font-family:Arial'>Hey Guys, > > > font-family:Arial'> > > > font-family:Arial'>I am conducting a survey. Does anyone out there flying > have a wing tip installed com antenna? If so does it work? Well? > > > font-family:Arial'> > > > font-family:Arial'> > > > font-family:Arial'>Thanks for your feedback. > > > font-family:Arial'> > > > font-family:Arial'>Jimmy Ayres > > > font-family:Arial'>RV7AQB > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:46 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" If I recall, Van's construction manual for the -7 covers this pretty well -- maybe it's just the slider windshield joint thing that they cover, but the principal is the same, right? What they DO NOT say, which I believe would be helpful, is that you should NOT countersink the plexi along the rear bow if you're going to use a targa strip on a tip-up. (Keep in mind that on the -7 they went to screws/nuts instead of pop rivets.) Instead, I personally think it would be better to countersink through the fiberglass strip -- and a bit of the plexi in the process, but not as much. In my case, I built the canopy to the plans. If I want to install a targa strip now, which I do plan on doing someday, then it will most likely cover the screw heads. Not a huge deal really, but I think it would be better if the strip were sandwiched in there with the screws. Yeah, I could install new screws in between existing holes, and you'd never know the difference from the outside, but that's a little funky imho. I'll probably just lay the strip up over the bow and the screws will be in there for good (like most of the rest of the canopy fasteners are anyway). Next time I'd probably include the strip integrally from the get-go, countersink the strip, and have the screws hold the strip on. Yes, I would use epoxy to hold the strip on just like the construction manual describes, but I think having the screws sandwich it in there would be a little added assurance. In any case, I'm just thinking out loud here. In your case, just rough that plexi up really well before doing the layup. I suspect your friend's "adhesion issue" was due to not roughing things up enough, or perhaps not cleaning it well enough before doing the layup. Just food for thought. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip-up canopy aft end fiberglass strip > --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > > There is discussion in the archives on this. Search for targa strip. > > It should be built as you describe. Attach with adhesive and use the > screws > that hold the canopy glass on the roll over bar. You may need screws that > are about 1/8" longer than supplied with kit. Lots of tip ups have this > strip. Carefully done and finished it will enhance the looks of your > plane > and be functional for keeping water and wind out. It will also hide any > unsightly damage or work. I for instance have both corners at the bottom > with cracks where the canopy glass edge has touched the metal skin while > closing. The targa strip will hide that. > > Indiana Larry in Evansville, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker 65 hours and still > grinning......... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bryan Hooks" >> >> Searched the archives with no luck so I thought I'd toss this out to >> everyone - >> >> The roll bar on my 7A tip-up is not terrible, but it's not a work of art >> either. So, I am considering putting a strip of fiberglass over the aft >> end of the tip-up canopy to 'hide' it. It would be about 2-3 inches >> wide, overhang the aft window by about a half and inch, and would only >> be attached to the tip up portion. I was thinking that this might also >> prevent leaks between the aft window and the tip up, as well as >> eliminate or reduce wind noise since there is a small gap between the >> two halves. >> >> A friend did this, and it blew off in-flight fairly quickly. As a >> result, he suggests using screws to ensure a permanent attachment. >> Anyone have any recommendations regarding this, or reasons not to use >> the glass at all? >> >> Since the strip would not be attached to the aft window, would air >> pressure or wind try to get underneath it from the back and try to rip >> it off or crack of chunks and pieces? >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Bryan Hooks >> RV-7A tip-up, finish kit, slow-build >> Knoxville, TN > > > ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:46:20 PM PST US From: "David Burton" Subject: Re: RV-List: Sealer on Whelen strobe lights --> RV-List message posted by: "David Burton" > I just received my Whelen strobe lights. They are sealed with some white > ProSeal like, Sikaflex like substance which is quite rubbery and which seems > perfect for preserving wires from chaffing against each other as they come > out of connectors or pass through grommets. Any of you guys have an idea as > to what Whelen might have used ? Or could you recommend a similar product ? Hi Michele, It's called potting compound and you can find it at any electronics shop. Here is a link to a bunch of different ones: http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832tc.html We buy it in disposable syringes that fit in a plier like tool that dispenses the compound. As others have said already, silicone or E6000 might be just as good or better. I guess I vote for silicon since the other two might be difficult to remove... Good luck! Dave, RV6 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:22 PM PST US From: "D.Bristol" Subject: Re: RV-List: Zero Thrust --> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" Jim, I tried this is my 6/Hartzel just 2 days ago and found that at 75-80 mph indicated and idle power, there was a big change when I pulled the prop to coarse pitch, it was actually quite dramatic. Also, if I leave the prop at cruise setting while landing, the airplane will float, where if it's all the way in, it just kerplunks on. Empirical evidence for sure, but there is enough difference to be quite noticeable well below 1300 rpm. Considering that with an engine out, I'll probably be gliding at about 100 mph, pulling the prop should be quite effective. Dave B. LessDragProd@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com > > >Hi All, > >I believe it takes about 1300 RPM for the governor to have control of the >propeller. >I believe you will see the propeller windmilling at around 1000 RPM in low >pitch. >So it isn't going to work to try to reduce the RPM with coarse pitch on a >standard CS propeller. > > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:02 PM PST US From: GMC Subject: Re: RV-List: Wing tip com antenna --> RV-List message posted by: GMC Hi Jim I do not have wing tip Com antenna but have had problems twice in about 20 total hours when flying formation with a leader with wingtip antenna. On 2 mile final and lead requests low and over - tower unable to understand, garbled. Vic formation and aircraft on one side unable to understand. Otherwise OK. do not archive George in Langley BC >> --> RV-List message posted by: "AYRES, JIMMY L" >>> >> >> Hey Guys, >> >> >> I am conducting a survey. Does anyone out there flying have a wing tip >>installed com antenna? If so does it work? Well? >> >> >> Thanks for your feedback. >> >> >> Jimmy Ayres >> >> RV7AQB >> >> >>