Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:57 AM - Re: Properly setting rivets with dimpled surfaces (Jim Oke)
2. 08:42 AM - Re: Re: Firewall ?????????? (Kyle Boatright)
3. 10:11 AM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (randall)
4. 10:50 AM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (Kyle Boatright)
5. 12:04 PM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (Dave Bristol)
6. 02:14 PM - No RvAtor Yet !! ()
7. 04:25 PM - TRIM YOUR POSTS (Kosta Lewis)
8. 04:36 PM - Re: No RvAtor Yet !! (John Huft)
9. 04:47 PM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (randall)
10. 05:19 PM - Re: No RvAtor Yet !! version=3.0.3 (N67BT@aol.com)
11. 06:56 PM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (Wentz, Don)
12. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: Firewall ?????????? (Wentz, Don)
13. 07:28 PM - Texas and roll your own runways question (Tim Bryan)
14. 08:45 PM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (Dick DeCramer)
15. 11:43 PM - Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel (Dan Checkoway)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Properly setting rivets with dimpled surfaces |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke <wjoke@shaw.ca>
Here is some stuff from Sam Buchanan's always useful RV site - snipped
from http://home.hiwaay.net/~sbuc/journal/tankdies.html
"Seeing that I was about to start sealing the tanks on my RV6, Mike
Lauritsen of Cleaveland Aircraft Tool sent me a set of their tank dies.
Here is what Mike had to say about the dies:
" When Pro-Seal gets between the rivet and the skin it makes the set
rivets stick up about .007" above the surface of the skin. These tank
dies make a dimple .007" deeper to accommodate that. Therefore you don't
have to try and sand, shave, or file the rivet heads down, just wipe
over them with lacquer thinner and you are done (And you will be glad
when you're done!). The dies are also useful for another purpose, the
entire substructure of the airplane. Have you ever noticed how the skin
and the substructure don't nest perfectly together until you mash it
with the rivet gun? Well I sat down one day and did the math and it
turns out that in .032" skin the optimum dimple should be .011" deeper
in the substructure for the dimples to mate perfectly. Now we do make a
substructure die also but if you are going to have the tank dies you
might as well use them for the substructure also."
More there too with photos.
Jim Oke
RV-6A
Wpg., MB
Dan Checkoway wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>
>http://rvproject.com/images/2005/20051007_rivet_in_dimple_die.jpg
>
>That's a standard AN426AD3-3 rivet sitting in the female 3/32" dimple die.
>According to Avery, where I bought it, it's a "springback" dimple die. As
>you can see, the rivet sits WAY lower than flush. It's a fuzzy photo
>(sorry), but you can still see it. It's more than just the acceptable
>"halo" that has been mentioned.
>
>The rivet is definitely sitting considerably below the face of the die. I'm
>not saying this is a problem, it's just representative of the possibilities.
>
>I can only surmise that it's the "springback" nature of this die set that
>allows the aluminum to be bent *past* the point of rivet-size, because (as
>the theory goes) the metal is supposed to spring back to the proper bend.
>Or does it... ;-)
>
>Anyway, my point is that it's at least _conceivable_ that the convex side of
>a dimple may not be the EXACT same size as a rivet head.
>
>)_( Dan
>RV-7 N714D
>http://www.rvproject.com
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Properly setting rivets with dimpled surfaces
>
>
>
>
>>Remind me tomorrow to put an AN426AD3-x rivet in my female dimple die. I
>>honestly haven't even tried that yet...but I intend to! I wonder if the
>>rivet will sit flush or sit low. My $.02 bet is that it will sit low.
>>
>>I'll try to remember to check it out tomorrow...
>>
>>Also, there is a distinction between "spring back" dimple dies and the
>>regular flavor. The end result is supposed to be the same but it may not
>>be.
>>
>>do not archive
>>)_( Dan
>>RV-7 N714D
>>http://www.rvproject.com
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:53 PM
>>Subject: Re: RV-List: Properly setting rivets with dimpled surfaces
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
>>>
>>>On 18:57:18 2005-10-06 "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
>>>>Be careful here. With a quality dimpling die, the under side of a
>>>>dimpled hole is the same size as the top. You can see this when you
>>>>put 2 dimpled sheets together - they fit just fine. However, when
>>>>fitting the dimpled sheet into a countersunk piece you can have a
>>>>problem with fit because the edge of the countersunk hole is sharp
>>>>and the corresponding point on the bottom of the dimple is not,
>>>>(quality "spring back" dies may give a sharper transition than cheap
>>>>dies) especially if you didn't use enough force when forming the
>>>>dimple.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The engineer in me must speak up: A countersunk hole will always have a
>>>sharp transition at the top corner, unless you remove it. A dimpled
>>>piece
>>>of aluminum will always have a rounded (or filleted) corner in the
>>>corresponding location. This means you will end up with one of two
>>>situations:
>>>
>>>One, you can countersink until the skin sits flat, in which case there
>>>will
>>>be an air gap under the dimpled skin in the "cone" of the countersink.
>>>You
>>>don't want this. It's not as strong a joint, and can lead to corrosion
>>>in
>>>the cavities, well beyond where you can see it happening.
>>>
>>>Two, you can countersink to fit the rivet, in which case the skin will
>>>*not* sit flat in the countersink. This is not a problem, if your dimple
>>>is good. When you drive the rivet it will drive that rounded corner into
>>>a
>>>sharp one and it will all become flush. This is what you want.
>>>
>>>So: Countersink only far enough to fit the head of the rivet. There's no
>>>reason to go further
>>>
>>>As for drilling a smaller hole so everything is "tighter", the engineer
>>>in
>>>me says you will end up with a smaller diameter of "meat" in the hole
>>>once
>>>the rivet is driven. This means that every rivet joint will be slightly
>>>less strong than it was designed to be. Which means your airplane is
>>>slightly less strong than it was designed to be. Why would you want
>>>that?
>>>
>>>Stop second-guessing the designer.
>>>
>>>-Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall ?????????? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
I installed a gascolator on my carburated engine, and wouldn't do it again.
In fact, I've thought about removing the one I've got. I'm very disciplined
about sumping the wing tanks, and have never found any water in the
gascolator. On the other hand, I think the gascolator is just another big
heat-sink under the cowl and contributes in some way to vapor lock. If
you're worried about heat related issues, vapor lock needs to be on your
list. With our tight cowls, heat gets trapped in there and everything gets
warm, particularly if you land, shut down, and try to re-start in 20-30
minutes on a hot summer day, which is probably the worst case. If I was
you, I'd consider firesleeving the fuel lines and aiming a blast tube at
your fuel pump. Some folks even valve things so they can circulate hot
firewall forward fuel back to one of the tanks, but I don't like adding
complexity to a fuel system. It adds another point of failure in a critical
system.
On the oil cooler issue, 2 coolers? You'll see more pressure drop, there
isn't a whole lot of extra room under the cowl, and you're doubling the
number of failure points. Before you go that route, you might talk to
Pacific Oil Cooler Service (1-800 866 7335). IMO, they are the most
knowledgable people around on oil coolers. They may be able to recommend a
single cooler that will serve your needs. I fought the oil temperature war
when my airplane was new. In the end, the single biggest factor in fixing my
temperature problem was cutting a big enough hole in the baffles to provide
air to the baffle mounted cooler.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
Subject: RV-List: Re: Firewall ??????????
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Hi to all
>
> I am at that stage in the project where I need to start formulating plans
> for fire wall info. Things to contemplate, gotches to watch out for, and
> the
> equipment needs. I will be hanging an IO 360 fuel injected, Pmags, CS
> prop......................I am also considering (99% for sure) dual oil
> coolers, horizontal sump........it is real out in SW Utah Desert Country.
> Also the need for a gascolater considering I will have fuel
> injection???????? Your help and info will be greatly appreciated.
>
> TIA
>
> Frank @ SGU and SLC 7A Fuse about to be rolled.....Finish kit will arrive
> next week
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
Andair sold a pneumatic TW for a while but it seems to have fizzled -- too
insubstantial and prone to flats. I tried two alternatives with plastic hubs
(still solid tires) and they saved a little weight but were also harder
rubber and vibrated a lot more, so I went back to the std. Vans wheel. I'm
still looking for a source for some better quality bearings for the std.
wheel.
Randall Henderson
RV-6 ~700 hrs
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
Randall,
What's the problem with the bearings on the standard wheel? Mine has 350
hours and a bunch of landings, and it is holding up very well despite the
abuse I occasionally put it through.
KB
----- Original Message -----
From: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Full Swivel Tail wheel
> --> RV-List message posted by: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
>
> Andair sold a pneumatic TW for a while but it seems to have fizzled -- too
> insubstantial and prone to flats. I tried two alternatives with plastic
> hubs
> (still solid tires) and they saved a little weight but were also harder
> rubber and vibrated a lot more, so I went back to the std. Vans wheel. I'm
> still looking for a source for some better quality bearings for the std.
> wheel.
>
> Randall Henderson
> RV-6 ~700 hrs
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
The only problem that I found with Van's tailwheel is that it needs a
spacer between the two bearings so that the axle nut can be tightened
enough to keep the race from spinning on the axle, without preloading
the bearings too much. Very easy to do.
The bearings seem to be good enough but probably won't last very long if
they have too much preload.
Dave B. -6 So Cal
randall wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
>
>Andair sold a pneumatic TW for a while but it seems to have fizzled -- too
>insubstantial and prone to flats. I tried two alternatives with plastic hubs
>(still solid tires) and they saved a little weight but were also harder
>rubber and vibrated a lot more, so I went back to the std. Vans wheel. I'm
>still looking for a source for some better quality bearings for the std.
>wheel.
>
>Randall Henderson
>RV-6 ~700 hrs
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | No RvAtor Yet !! |
--> RV-List message posted by: <n1cxo320@peoplepc.com>
DO NOT ARCHIVE
I still have not received the latest (and now very late) RvAtor. Am I the
only one? Van's doesn't respond about where the copy is ....????
John
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Kosta Lewis" <mikel@dimensional.com>
Not that I am a member of the list police, but there have been a high
number of posts being made that have the ENTIRE list of posts, from the
original post along with ALL the replies posted on the subject. As Matt
tells us from the Official Guidelines, TRIM YOUR POSTS. It otherwise
winds up in the archives 30 times.
"When responding, NEVER quote [or leave attached] the *entire* original
post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help
"tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact
that quoting the entire original post [and all the replies] has on the
size of the archive
cannot be overstated!- "
do not archive, it's in there 10k times already
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: No RvAtor Yet !! |
version=3.0.3
--> RV-List message posted by: John Huft <rv8@lazy8.net>
John, must be a Colorado thing, I don't have mine either.
John, Pagosa Springs
n1cxo320@peoplepc.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: <n1cxo320@peoplepc.com>
>
>DO NOT ARCHIVE
>
>I still have not received the latest (and now very late) RvAtor. Am I the
>only one? Van's doesn't respond about where the copy is ....????
>
>John
>
>
>.
>
>
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
I don't remember how long my first TW lasted -- maybe 300-400 hrs -- but the
bearings were shot before the tire was. They are pretty cheezy affairs as
others have found (check the archives.) It's not a big deal, would nice to
find something a little better is all.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
>
> Randall,
>
> What's the problem with the bearings on the standard wheel? Mine has 350
> hours and a bunch of landings, and it is holding up very well despite the
> abuse I occasionally put it through.
>
> KB
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: No RvAtor Yet !! version=3.0.3 |
--> RV-List message posted by: N67BT@aol.com
<<John, must be a Colorado thing, I don't have mine either.
John, Pagosa Springs>>
Haven't gotten mine yet.
Bob Trumpfheller
Western Colorado
do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wentz, Don" <don.wentz@intel.com>
My experience was similar to Randall's.
I got a light wheel with sealed bearings from Terry Jantzi, it's working
well.
Dw
RV-6 910hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of randall
Subject: Re: RV-List: Full Swivel Tail wheel
--> RV-List message posted by: "randall" <rv6n6r@comcast.net>
I don't remember how long my first TW lasted -- maybe 300-400 hrs -- but
the bearings were shot before the tire was. They are pretty cheezy
affairs as others have found (check the archives.) It's not a big deal,
would nice to find something a little better is all.
Randall Henderson
RV-6
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
> --> <kboatright1@comcast.net>
>
> Randall,
>
> What's the problem with the bearings on the standard wheel? Mine has
> 350 hours and a bunch of landings, and it is holding up very well
> despite the abuse I occasionally put it through.
>
> KB
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Firewall ?????????? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Wentz, Don" <don.wentz@intel.com>
Frank,
I agree with Kyle.
A properly installed oil cooler will cool your engine, and adding
lines/failure points is NOT good.
Minimize all lines/connections/lengths, firesleeve, blast tube major
components.
Do a GOOD job on your baffling to insure air flow where you WANT it.
I have FI and don't use a gascolator, no problems in 900 hrs.
One thing I do that helps is when I stop somwhere, I open the oil door
to allow cool air to come in the bottom of the cowl and circulate up
thru everything and out the top of the cowl. I check my oil before
EVERY flight, so it is not an inconvenience, and helps reduce heat soak.
dw
RV-6 910hrs
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kyle Boatright
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Firewall ??????????
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright"
--> <kboatright1@comcast.net>
I installed a gascolator on my carburated engine, and wouldn't do it
again.
In fact, I've thought about removing the one I've got. I'm very
disciplined about sumping the wing tanks, and have never found any water
in the gascolator. On the other hand, I think the gascolator is just
another big heat-sink under the cowl and contributes in some way to
vapor lock. If you're worried about heat related issues, vapor lock
needs to be on your list. With our tight cowls, heat gets trapped in
there and everything gets warm, particularly if you land, shut down, and
try to re-start in 20-30 minutes on a hot summer day, which is probably
the worst case. If I was you, I'd consider firesleeving the fuel lines
and aiming a blast tube at your fuel pump. Some folks even valve things
so they can circulate hot firewall forward fuel back to one of the
tanks, but I don't like adding complexity to a fuel system. It adds
another point of failure in a critical system.
On the oil cooler issue, 2 coolers? You'll see more pressure drop,
there isn't a whole lot of extra room under the cowl, and you're
doubling the number of failure points. Before you go that route, you
might talk to Pacific Oil Cooler Service (1-800 866 7335). IMO, they
are the most knowledgable people around on oil coolers. They may be able
to recommend a single cooler that will serve your needs. I fought the
oil temperature war when my airplane was new. In the end, the single
biggest factor in fixing my temperature problem was cutting a big enough
hole in the baffles to provide air to the baffle mounted cooler.
KB
Message 13
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| Subject: | Texas and roll your own runways question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6@bryantechnology.com>
First off: Do Not Archive
I am looking for some questions about putting in a runway in Texas.
Specifically, if there are land use laws to go by? State regulations? etc.
I am pretty sure the FAA only wants to be notified and will only object if
there are airspace issues. Anybody in Texas?
Private email is OK. Thanks
Tim Bryan
flyrv6@bryantechnology.com
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dick DeCramer" <diesel@rconnect.com>
> I don't remember how long my first TW lasted -- maybe 300-400 hrs -- but
the
> bearings were shot before the tire was.
Have you guys checked the price of Van's TW bearings? $2.60 and an entire
TW is $27 at currant 2005 prices! Chief Aircraft wants $114.50 for a solid
tire for the Scott 2000 TW and the 3200 TW is $349.95 for the wheel
assembly!!! Now, again, what is the issue with Van's Tailwheel ??? I
don't find much of a problem here as I can carry spares in my parts
inventory and still save much $$$$ even if they have to be replaced every
300 hrs!
Dick DeCramer
RV6 90hrs
Minnesota
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Full Swivel Tail wheel |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Have you guys checked the price of Van's TW bearings? $2.60 and an
> entire
> TW is $27 at currant 2005 prices! Chief Aircraft wants $114.50 for a
> solid
> tire for the Scott 2000 TW and the 3200 TW is $349.95 for the wheel
> assembly!!! Now, again, what is the issue with Van's Tailwheel ??? I
> don't find much of a problem here as I can carry spares in my parts
> inventory and still save much $$$$ even if they have to be replaced every
> 300 hrs!
After 848 takeoffs & landings my original Van's full-swivel tailwheel &
bearings are still working fine (albeit tailwheel worn flat, no big deal).
Did I get lucky?
Maybe doing wheel landings has something to do with it? I would assume less
impact -- letting the tail down gently as opposed to landing on it --
imposes less wear & tear on the bearings.
Combine improper nut torque with 3-pointers and you might have cause for
premature bearing failure?...just a w.a.guess
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D (642 hours)
http://www.rvproject.com
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