Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:20 AM - Re: Question about torquing bolts (RAS)
2. 03:22 AM - Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts (Mark Chamberlain)
3. 03:47 AM - Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts (RAS)
4. 04:27 AM - Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts (Kevin Horton)
5. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: electric vs manual trim (Rick Galati)
6. 06:19 AM - Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts (Dean Van Winkle)
7. 07:38 AM - Fly-in (Oliver Washburn)
8. 08:25 AM - Re: Re: electric vs manual trim (James H Nelson)
9. 09:19 PM - Re: RV-10 lateral trim (lancenewman)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Question about torquing bolts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices@btinternet.com>
The standard aircraft handbook gives torque values for nuts, not for bolts
and gives the same values as published by van's. So you torque with
20-25lbs/in , torque with a lot more and you probably find that the bolt
snaps......
The only time you will torque a bolt is when this is so indicated and you
should use a washer under the head of the bolt. I can't recall any bolts
being torqued in the RV designs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
Subject: RV-List: Question about torquing bolts
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
>
> Hi everyone. I have a question about torquing bolts properly.
>
> I'm under the impression that the proper torque of a bolt should be
> the torque exerted to tighten the nut beyond the normal friction
> between the nut and the bolt (correct me if I'm wrong). For non-stop
> nuts that exhibit very little friction with their bolt, it's likely
> not a significant difference. But for stop nuts (with the nylon
> insert), this additional friction is somewhat significant.
>
> My torque wrench is the kind that clicks when it reaches the torque
> set (it doesn't have a meter on which you can directly read the
> torque being exerted). And it isn't sensitive enough to measure the
> relatively small amount of torque required to overcome the friction
> with the nylon insert. So I rigged up a simple test using a postal
> scale and a wrench of known length. I came up with a calculated
> torque of 6.1 inch-pounds required to overcome the nylon friction of
> a stop nut tightened on an AN3 bolt. Though the math should be
> simple, I just wanted to check if the rest of you who have been there
> already consider this to be reasonable.
>
> If I recall correctly, Van's lists the AN3 bolts as having a torque
> of 20-25 inch pounds. So I'm assuming that with these calculations,
> in tightening a stop nut onto an AN3 bolt, I should be selecting
> 26-31 inch pounds to account for the friction with the nylon insert.
> Does this sound reasonable?
>
> Since the AN3 bolts have such a low torque setting by feel of what
> I've been using with bolts in the past, I wanted to make sure that
> I'm not under-torquing..
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> Dan
> --
> Syzygy Research & Technology
> Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Chamberlain" <mchamberlain@runbox.com>
Dean,
So would this mean then that all of the bolts with Nyloc nuts that I
have been torquing to 20 to 25 in-lbs need to be re-tightened to 26-31
in-lbs?
If this is correct; why don't Van's just list the correct torque to
begin with?
Is it just me that didn't catch this one or is it a common mistake?
Thanks,
Mark
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
Dan
You are absolutely correct in your reasoning and conclusions.
Dean Van Winkle
RV-9A Fuselage/Finish Retired Aeronautical Engineer
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
Subject: RV-List: Question about torquing bolts
> --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
>
> Hi everyone. I have a question about torquing bolts properly.
>
> I'm under the impression that the proper torque of a bolt should
be
> the torque exerted to tighten the nut beyond the normal friction
> between the nut and the bolt (correct me if I'm wrong). For
non-stop
> nuts that exhibit very little friction with their bolt, it's
likely
> not a significant difference. But for stop nuts (with the nylon
> insert), this additional friction is somewhat significant.
>
> My torque wrench is the kind that clicks when it reaches the
torque
> set (it doesn't have a meter on which you can directly read the
> torque being exerted). And it isn't sensitive enough to measure
the
> relatively small amount of torque required to overcome the
friction
> with the nylon insert. So I rigged up a simple test using a
postal
> scale and a wrench of known length. I came up with a calculated
> torque of 6.1 inch-pounds required to overcome the nylon
friction of
> a stop nut tightened on an AN3 bolt. Though the math should be
> simple, I just wanted to check if the rest of you who have been
there
> already consider this to be reasonable.
>
> If I recall correctly, Van's lists the AN3 bolts as having a
torque
> of 20-25 inch pounds. So I'm assuming that with these
calculations,
> in tightening a stop nut onto an AN3 bolt, I should be selecting
> 26-31 inch pounds to account for the friction with the nylon
insert.
> Does this sound reasonable?
>
> Since the AN3 bolts have such a low torque setting by feel of
what
> I've been using with bolts in the past, I wanted to make sure
that
> I'm not under-torquing..
>
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> Dan
> --
> Syzygy Research & Technology
> Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
> Phone: 780-961-2213
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices@btinternet.com>
Hi,
quote is from the " Standard Aircraft Handbook" by Larry Reithmaier, page
150:
fine tread series, standard type nuts ( MS20365, AN310, AN315)
bolt size 10-32(AN3) 20-25 inch/lbs
1/4-28 50-70 inch/lbs
5/16-24 100 - 140 inch/lbs
3/8 - 24 160 - 190 inch/lbs
7/16 - 20 450 - 500 inch/lbs
1/2 - 20 480 - 690 inch/lbs
9/16 - 18 800 - 1000 inch/lbs
5/8 -18 1100 - 1300 inch/lbs
3/4 -16 2300 - 2500 inch/lbs
I hope this helps and stop some people trying to re-invent the wheel and
spend their time on building instead! :-)
Other publications that might be of use for this type of queries is
AC43.13-1B, acceptable methods, techniques and practises. This publication
is more focused on repairs than construction but nevertheless contains
helpful hints and other info.
These books are inexpensive but most valuable to have if you work on
aircraft regardless of size or type. You can get both publications through
the builders bookstore, as a matter of fact andy is on the RV-list himself.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Chamberlain" <mchamberlain@runbox.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing
bolts
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Chamberlain"
> <mchamberlain@runbox.com>
>
> Dean,
>
> So would this mean then that all of the bolts with Nyloc nuts that I
> have been torquing to 20 to 25 in-lbs need to be re-tightened to 26-31
> in-lbs?
>
> If this is correct; why don't Van's just list the correct torque to
> begin with?
>
> Is it just me that didn't catch this one or is it a common mistake?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
>
> Dan
>
> You are absolutely correct in your reasoning and conclusions.
>
> Dean Van Winkle
> RV-9A Fuselage/Finish Retired Aeronautical Engineer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Question about torquing bolts
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
> >
> > Hi everyone. I have a question about torquing bolts properly.
> >
> > I'm under the impression that the proper torque of a bolt should
> be
> > the torque exerted to tighten the nut beyond the normal friction
> > between the nut and the bolt (correct me if I'm wrong). For
> non-stop
> > nuts that exhibit very little friction with their bolt, it's
> likely
> > not a significant difference. But for stop nuts (with the nylon
> > insert), this additional friction is somewhat significant.
> >
> > My torque wrench is the kind that clicks when it reaches the
> torque
> > set (it doesn't have a meter on which you can directly read the
> > torque being exerted). And it isn't sensitive enough to measure
> the
> > relatively small amount of torque required to overcome the
> friction
> > with the nylon insert. So I rigged up a simple test using a
> postal
> > scale and a wrench of known length. I came up with a calculated
> > torque of 6.1 inch-pounds required to overcome the nylon
> friction of
> > a stop nut tightened on an AN3 bolt. Though the math should be
> > simple, I just wanted to check if the rest of you who have been
> there
> > already consider this to be reasonable.
> >
> > If I recall correctly, Van's lists the AN3 bolts as having a
> torque
> > of 20-25 inch pounds. So I'm assuming that with these
> calculations,
> > in tightening a stop nut onto an AN3 bolt, I should be selecting
> > 26-31 inch pounds to account for the friction with the nylon
> insert.
> > Does this sound reasonable?
> >
> > Since the AN3 bolts have such a low torque setting by feel of
> what
> > I've been using with bolts in the past, I wanted to make sure
> that
> > I'm not under-torquing..
> >
> > Thanks for your advice!
> >
> > Dan
> > --
> > Syzygy Research & Technology
> > Box 83, Legal, AB T0G 1L0 Canada
> > Phone: 780-961-2213
> >
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
From AC43.13-1B Change 1, Chapter 7, section 7-40: TORQUES
c. Run the nut down to near contact with the washer or bearing
surface and check the friction drag torque required to turn the nut.
d. Add the friction drag torque to the desired torque. This is
referred to as final torque, which should register on the indicator
or setting for a snap-over type torque wrench.
The friction torque will vary depending on what type of self-locking
nut you are using, and whether the nut is new or reused. Van can't
specify a friction torque. He assumes that people will assemble his
aircraft using standard aviation practices, as described in documents
like AC 43.13-1B. This is a standard reference, and everyone should
have a copy, either hard copy, or an electronic version. You can
download it from the FAA web site. Go to the Regulations and Policy
section, and look for Advisory Circulars. Search for 43.13-1B.
Kevin Horton
On 29-Oct-05, at 05:21 , Mark Chamberlain wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Chamberlain"
> <mchamberlain@runbox.com>
>
> Dean,
>
> So would this mean then that all of the bolts with Nyloc nuts that I
> have been torquing to 20 to 25 in-lbs need to be re-tightened to 26-31
> in-lbs?
>
> If this is correct; why don't Van's just list the correct torque to
> begin with?
>
> Is it just me that didn't catch this one or is it a common mistake?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle"
> <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
>
> Dan
>
> You are absolutely correct in your reasoning and conclusions.
>
> Dean Van Winkle
> RV-9A Fuselage/Finish Retired Aeronautical Engineer
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
> Subject: RV-List: Question about torquing bolts
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
>>
>> Hi everyone. I have a question about torquing bolts properly.
>>
>> I'm under the impression that the proper torque of a bolt should
>>
> be
>
>> the torque exerted to tighten the nut beyond the normal friction
>> between the nut and the bolt (correct me if I'm wrong). For
>>
> non-stop
>
>> nuts that exhibit very little friction with their bolt, it's
>>
> likely
>
>> not a significant difference. But for stop nuts (with the nylon
>> insert), this additional friction is somewhat significant.
>>
>> My torque wrench is the kind that clicks when it reaches the
>>
> torque
>
>> set (it doesn't have a meter on which you can directly read the
>> torque being exerted). And it isn't sensitive enough to measure
>>
> the
>
>> relatively small amount of torque required to overcome the
>>
> friction
>
>> with the nylon insert. So I rigged up a simple test using a
>>
> postal
>
>> scale and a wrench of known length. I came up with a calculated
>> torque of 6.1 inch-pounds required to overcome the nylon
>>
> friction of
>
>> a stop nut tightened on an AN3 bolt. Though the math should be
>> simple, I just wanted to check if the rest of you who have been
>>
> there
>
>> already consider this to be reasonable.
>>
>> If I recall correctly, Van's lists the AN3 bolts as having a
>>
> torque
>
>> of 20-25 inch pounds. So I'm assuming that with these
>>
> calculations,
>
>> in tightening a stop nut onto an AN3 bolt, I should be selecting
>> 26-31 inch pounds to account for the friction with the nylon
>>
> insert.
>
>> Does this sound reasonable?
>>
>> Since the AN3 bolts have such a low torque setting by feel of
>>
> what
>
>> I've been using with bolts in the past, I wanted to make sure
>>
> that
>
>> I'm not under-torquing..
>>
>> Thanks for your advice!
>>
>> Dan
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Re: electric vs manual trim |
--> RV-List message posted by: Rick Galati <rick6a@yahoo.com>
Mickey,
I purchased a MK-111 out of Van's catalog in late 2001 and the price was $67.33
at that time. As you can see from the link, the price is only slightly higher
today.
http://tinyurl.com/a4ssb
Rick
What is the MK-111 speed controller, and where do I get one?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing bolts |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle" <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
Mark
The simple answer to your question is "Yes" and thanks to Kevin for the
additional clarifying info.
Dean
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01@rogers.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Question about torquing boltsQuestion about torquing
bolts
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> From AC43.13-1B Change 1, Chapter 7, section 7-40: TORQUES
>
> c. Run the nut down to near contact with the washer or bearing
> surface and check the friction drag torque required to turn the nut.
>
> d. Add the friction drag torque to the desired torque. This is
> referred to as final torque, which should register on the indicator
> or setting for a snap-over type torque wrench.
>
> The friction torque will vary depending on what type of self-locking
> nut you are using, and whether the nut is new or reused. Van can't
> specify a friction torque. He assumes that people will assemble his
> aircraft using standard aviation practices, as described in documents
> like AC 43.13-1B. This is a standard reference, and everyone should
> have a copy, either hard copy, or an electronic version. You can
> download it from the FAA web site. Go to the Regulations and Policy
> section, and look for Advisory Circulars. Search for 43.13-1B.
>
> Kevin Horton
>
> On 29-Oct-05, at 05:21 , Mark Chamberlain wrote:
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Chamberlain"
>> <mchamberlain@runbox.com>
>>
>> Dean,
>>
>> So would this mean then that all of the bolts with Nyloc nuts that I
>> have been torquing to 20 to 25 in-lbs need to be re-tightened to 26-31
>> in-lbs?
>>
>> If this is correct; why don't Van's just list the correct torque to
>> begin with?
>>
>> Is it just me that didn't catch this one or is it a common mistake?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Van Winkle"
>> <dvanwinkle@royell.net>
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> You are absolutely correct in your reasoning and conclusions.
>>
>> Dean Van Winkle
>> RV-9A Fuselage/Finish Retired Aeronautical Engineer
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Dan Charrois" <danlist@syz.com>
>> Subject: RV-List: Question about torquing bolts
>>
>>
>>> --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Charrois <danlist@syz.com>
>>>
>>> Hi everyone. I have a question about torquing bolts properly.
>>>
>>> I'm under the impression that the proper torque of a bolt should
>>>
>> be
>>
>>> the torque exerted to tighten the nut beyond the normal friction
>>> between the nut and the bolt (correct me if I'm wrong). For
>>>
>> non-stop
>>
>>> nuts that exhibit very little friction with their bolt, it's
>>>
>> likely
>>
>>> not a significant difference. But for stop nuts (with the nylon
>>> insert), this additional friction is somewhat significant.
>>>
>>> My torque wrench is the kind that clicks when it reaches the
>>>
>> torque
>>
>>> set (it doesn't have a meter on which you can directly read the
>>> torque being exerted). And it isn't sensitive enough to measure
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> relatively small amount of torque required to overcome the
>>>
>> friction
>>
>>> with the nylon insert. So I rigged up a simple test using a
>>>
>> postal
>>
>>> scale and a wrench of known length. I came up with a calculated
>>> torque of 6.1 inch-pounds required to overcome the nylon
>>>
>> friction of
>>
>>> a stop nut tightened on an AN3 bolt. Though the math should be
>>> simple, I just wanted to check if the rest of you who have been
>>>
>> there
>>
>>> already consider this to be reasonable.
>>>
>>> If I recall correctly, Van's lists the AN3 bolts as having a
>>>
>> torque
>>
>>> of 20-25 inch pounds. So I'm assuming that with these
>>>
>> calculations,
>>
>>> in tightening a stop nut onto an AN3 bolt, I should be selecting
>>> 26-31 inch pounds to account for the friction with the nylon
>>>
>> insert.
>>
>>> Does this sound reasonable?
>>>
>>> Since the AN3 bolts have such a low torque setting by feel of
>>>
>> what
>>
>>> I've been using with bolts in the past, I wanted to make sure
>>>
>> that
>>
>>> I'm not under-torquing..
>>>
>>> Thanks for your advice!
>>>
>>> Dan
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Oliver Washburn" <ollie6a@earthlink.net>
One week until our Fall RV Fly-in at Love's Landing Airpark (97FL) in Central Florida
for the best bar-b-que lunch in the Southeast. There will be coffee and
donuts for the early birds. No program, just a good lunch and tall tales.
Where-Love's Landing Airpark (97FL) 21nm SE of Ocala on 130* radial. N28*57.42
W081*53.29
When-Sat. Nov 5th , lunch at noon and coffee and donuts for early birds. Rain date
Nov 6th.
What- Bar-b que pork, hamburgers, hotdogs, baked beans, coleslaw and all the other
fixins.
Our Spring fly-in was rained out twice so hope for good weather and a large turnout
for this one.
"This is a private airpark so land at your own risk"
Message 8
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|
| Subject: | Re: electric vs manual trim |
--> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson <rv9jim@juno.com>
Mikey,
The Ray allen co has their own screw adjustable speed
controller. No need to go any further!
Jim
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: RV-10 lateral trim |
--> RV-List message posted by: "lancenewman" <lancenewman@comcast.net>
This was the most effective method I found for my RV6. Purchase a new
outboard aileron bracket and correct the probable assymetry between the left
and right side aileron. In my case, I had a right wing heavy condition due
to a very small rise in the right outer aileron bracket position relative to
wing rear spar mounting point. Sometimes you can't even see difference
without laying a straight edge across it. In any case, you lower the bracket
position slightly relative to the main wing rear spar mounting point to
correct the heavy wing. In my case I was running 8 lbs heavy to the right
side. 8 lbs of extra fuel in the left tank would balance the aircraft out.
The 8 lb condition was corrected by dropping the right aileron bracket by
1mm. It is strictly a trial and error method. Get 2 new outboard brackets.
Use the first as a test bed by elongating the holes and tweaking the
positioning a mm at a time until the problem is nullified. Then measure the
spec and drill the second bracket to meet that spec. Some guys just use the
elongated hole method as a final fix, but I am too much of a purist for
that.
Good Luck
LN
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RV-List: RV-10 lateral trim
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Brian Denk" <akroguy@hotmail.com>
>
>
>>Greetings all:
>>
>>I am flying the test time off of a friend's new RV-10. It now has about
>>21
>>hours total time but is flying left wing heavy. As you the RV-10's
>>ailerons
>>are constructed differently than the "old" RVs which allowed the "squeeze
>>the aileron trick" to adjust lateral trim. It appears the only way to
>>correct this trim issue is to install a balsa TE piece under the right
>>aileron to bring that aileron up or to tweak the flap rigging. Does
>>anyone
>>have another other suggestions. Right now we are3 using the balsa TE
>>material method as a temporary fix.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Doug Weiler
>>Pres, MN Wing
>
>
> Move over and fly from the right seat?
>
> Sorry, couldn't resist.
>
> I'm also new to the riveted trailing edge phenomena and have wondered how
> to
> trim the ailerons in the future on my -10. I think you can tweak the
> trailing edge up or down with very judicious use of a hand seamer.
> Perhaps
> it would only require a tiny amount of bias up or down to change the way
> the
> aileron rides in neutral position. Otherwise, the balsa TE stock
> technique
> is tried and true. Also, I tried monkeying around with flap postion on my
> -8 to trim out some roll with zero results. They seem to be too close in
> to
> the roll axis down the fuselage centerline to be of much help. Now, the
> RV10 flaps go darn near full span so you might gain something there.
>
> Van's might have something to say about this, so I'd ask them too.
>
> Brian Denk
> RV8 N94BD
> RV10 '51
> moving into airpark home this week. Where did I pack the rivet gun.....
>
>
>
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