---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/24/05: 23 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:39 AM - Re: List Contributions (Kevin Horton) 2. 04:54 AM - Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (wskimike) 3. 05:12 AM - Re: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines (wskimike) 4. 06:06 AM - Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (Darrell Reiley) 5. 07:34 AM - Re: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines (Chuck Jensen) 6. 08:29 AM - Re: Tip Light Indicators (Charlie England) 7. 08:36 AM - Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (Dick DeCramer) 8. 09:25 AM - Printer labels with white ink (James H Nelson) 9. 09:32 AM - Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (Smitty) 10. 10:47 AM - Re: Printer labels with white ink (Dick DeCramer) 11. 11:15 AM - Re: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines (G McNutt) 12. 11:19 AM - Re: Printer labels with white ink (Bruce Gray) 13. 11:45 AM - Contributions (Terry Watson) 14. 12:22 PM - Re: AeroElectric-List: Contributions (Mickey Coggins) 15. 12:56 PM - Re: Horizontal vs Vertical Induction Engines (Jim Jewell) 16. 02:39 PM - Engine bolts (George Inman) 17. 03:08 PM - Re: Engine bolts (Charlie Kuss) 18. 03:18 PM - Re: Printer labels with white ink (linn walters) 19. 03:31 PM - Re: Engine bolts (linn walters) 20. 04:19 PM - Re: Printer labels with white ink (Bob C.) 21. 04:38 PM - Re: Engine bolts (Jim Jewell) 22. 06:19 PM - Re: [SPAM] Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (Don Hall) 23. 08:58 PM - Re: [SPAM] Re: Dimpled skin and clecos (gerns25@netscape.net) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:05 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: List Contributions --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 23 Nov 2005, at 22:47, Mannan J. Thomason wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Mannan J. Thomason" > > > List: > > Matt's doing a fabulous job. I've made my pitifully small > contribution to > the list. (I'm retarded----uhh---retired.) Please guys, if you > think this > is worthwhile, give a little. The info I've gleaned from the list has saved me thousands of dollars, and many hours. My RV-8 will be a much better aircraft because of this list. I've also made a bunch of new friends, and it is interesting to track them down when I travel. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:54:32 AM PST US From: "wskimike" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: "wskimike" If the drill bit is a #40 check your dimple dies and make sure you are using the right size. Mike Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven DiNieri" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos > --> RV-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri" > > Darin, the first thought is that maybe your deburring too aggressively. I > cant remember any clecos pulling through dimples unless I've drilled out a > bad rivet. If your certain the bit is #40 take a mic and check for > mislabel. > > Steve dinieri > N221rv > N231rv > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > gerns25@netscape.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos > > --> RV-List message posted by: gerns25@netscape.net > > I checked the archives for information on this subject but found none. > The > problem I am having is this: > > While building the Horiz. stabilizer I have found that after dimpling the > skin and the ribs, the 3/32" clecos don't hold for anything...the spring > in > the skin pulls them out of 90% of the holes. I match drilled all the > flush > rivets using the #40 bit and dimpled everything using the 3/32" dimple die > set. The holes are just a hair too large for the clecos. Has anyone else > had this problem? Another thing, it seems as though this only happens in > the ribs (thinner material), the rear and forward spar don't have the > problem. I dimpled this stuff with my pneumatic squeezer if that makes a > difference. I know there is not a whole lot I can to about it now but can > someone give me some advice for the future skins? > > Darin Hawkes > RV7 Empennage > N619PB reserved > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:12:24 AM PST US From: "wskimike" Subject: Re: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines --> RV-List message posted by: "wskimike" Carbs are different if you are not using fuel injection. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines > --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" > > Hi Paul, > > AeroSport Power is easily among the most highly regarded companies. Bart > is > very customer conscious and he enjoys very high recommendations from his > customers around the world. > > I have yet hear of or meet anyone that has regretted doing business with > him. > > Jim in Kelowna, in the great white North - Prepping the fuse for paint > > > --- Original Message ----- > From: "Valovich, Paul" > To: > Subject: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines > > >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Valovich, Paul" >> >> I'm at the engine selection stage of my -8A QB project. Pretty much >> decided on a new IO-360. I've been very impressed by Vans, Superior and >> Aerosport regarding engine options and customer support, but still have >> an unanswered question: >> >> >> Are there any performance / reliability differences between horizontal >> and vertical induction engines? >> >> >> So far the only answers I've gotten have to do with aesthetics - >> removing the scoop - which begs the question: Is the aesthetic value of >> a horizontal induction engine worth the $1800 jump in price (Aerosport)? >> Seems to me there has to be other factors, but so far I haven't been >> smart enough to figure them out. >> >> >> I'm leaning toward Aerosport - dealing with them just feels right. >> Anyone have any goods or others comments on their Great White North >> experiences? >> >> Paul Valovich >> >> "Booger" >> >> Ridgecrest, CA >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:06:21 AM PST US From: Darrell Reiley Subject: Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: Darrell Reiley I would say mislabel or wrong bit. I would even double check the cleco. I had that problem before on a batch of used clecos I bought... odd sized. Darrell wskimike wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "wskimike" If the drill bit is a #40 check your dimple dies and make sure you are using the right size. Mike Harris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven DiNieri" Subject: RE: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos > --> RV-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri" > > Darin, the first thought is that maybe your deburring too aggressively. I > cant remember any clecos pulling through dimples unless I've drilled out a > bad rivet. If your certain the bit is #40 take a mic and check for > mislabel. > > Steve dinieri > N221rv > N231rv > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > gerns25@netscape.net > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos > > --> RV-List message posted by: gerns25@netscape.net > > I checked the archives for information on this subject but found none. > The > problem I am having is this: > > While building the Horiz. stabilizer I have found that after dimpling the > skin and the ribs, the 3/32" clecos don't hold for anything...the spring > in > the skin pulls them out of 90% of the holes. I match drilled all the > flush > rivets using the #40 bit and dimpled everything using the 3/32" dimple die > set. The holes are just a hair too large for the clecos. Has anyone else > had this problem? Another thing, it seems as though this only happens in > the ribs (thinner material), the rear and forward spar don't have the > problem. I dimpled this stuff with my pneumatic squeezer if that makes a > difference. I know there is not a whole lot I can to about it now but can > someone give me some advice for the future skins? > > Darin Hawkes > RV7 Empennage > N619PB reserved > Try the New Netscape Mail Today! > Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List > http://mail.netscape.com > > > --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:34:55 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "wskimike" Carbs are different if you are not using fuel injection. Mike No kidding!! Chuck Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:29:02 AM PST US From: Charlie England Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip Light Indicators --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie England Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > >Howdy List- > >Occasionally one of my brain farts turns into something I think is pretty >cool and I'd feel bad if I didn't share with y'all- if you don't like the little >plexiglass blades (or other means) of telling if your tip lights are on, >here's something that is embarrassingly cheap and easy to do- see: > >http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=7883 > >Have fun! > >>From The PossumWorks in TN >Mark -6A N51PW, 250 hours > This list is fun, but an occasional (too rare) nugget like this is what homebuilding & this list are really about. You've shamed me into whipping out my credit card for a donation. Thanks, Mark Charlie ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:57 AM PST US From: "Dick DeCramer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: "Dick DeCramer" .Problem....." I match drilled all the flush rivets using the #40 bit and dimpled everything using the 3/32" dimple die set. The holes are just a hair too large for the clecos. Has anyone else had this problem?" My experience building old, drill your own RV kits has made these points obvious.... I bought my cleco's in about 1998 so things may have changed but most builders had the same problems of insecure holding clecos and it is normally the clecos. Cheap clecos from ATS and US Tool which were .02 cheaper than Avery and Cleaveland had tips that were not shaped as consistently well. Brand name Clekoloc - USA were then sold by ATS/US Tool and Wedgeloc was sold by Avery/Cleaveland. You can tell the difference as the cheaper units have to be "tipped" into the hole since the tips do not, when extended, close together to shape a "point" but rather just extend leaving the builder to "tip" or force the prongs together to enter the hole. There may be other brands but these are the only ones I know but I do keep them segregated as the difference in performance is very noticeable. Now for "popping" out of dimpled holes. The higher $$ clecos did better but sometimes they did let go especially when doing high vibration jobs. The cheaper clecos had a lower percentage of them that actually held because the tips were not CONSISTENTLY well formed. Sometimes I could get them to grip better by retracting the pin and turning them in the hole 90 degrees other times I place a scrap piece of aluminum just drilled, not dimpled, behind the assembly to act as a washer to provide better gripping. I have tried drilling the hole to # 41 (even #42) instead of #40 and found problems with this. IF the dimple die enters this reduce hole with no interference then okay but IF the dimple die is press fit or friction fit then there is a problem. Examination with a strong magnifying glass will show a slight cracking around your hole meaning stress risers have been induced by forcing the pin of the dimple die into a tight undersize hole meaning your deburring process was just ruined. The standard #40 hole doesn't do this. Every builder should have a small cheap magnifying glass handy to occasionally check work for stress risers which should be our goal to eliminate. The rivet in a #40 hole which has been dimpled will have extra play in the hole initially but after one blow with the rivet gun or, if using a squeezer, the very first part of the squeeze, will cause the entire rivet from head to shop end to expand filling the hole entirely. Now continued driving of the rivet will produce the nice shaped shop head we all strive for. So choosing the hole as #41 or #40 is more dependant on the dimple die you have than the rivet but the whole process is designed around #40 holes. You can also have all the holes perfect and the when squeezing the dimple die into the hole cause a crack or an oval hole if the squeezer side frame runs against a rib or bulkhead. The leverage here is very great and the thinner sheet will actually give rather than move the stationary rib causing small cracks around one side of the hole. So be careful with the squeezer when dimpling in tight fitting areas. The magnifying glass will show the stress risers but the naked eye will miss them. I know of two low time RV4's with cracks around screw holes at the fiberglass wingtip attach points. Blue Skies and happy riveting Dick DeCramer RV6 N500DD 100 Hours Minnesota ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:25:33 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can make some labels? Jim Nelson RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:32:42 AM PST US From: "Smitty" Subject: Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: "Smitty" I was just reading these series of emails on this subject. So if someone has already mentioned my suggestion, please pardon my repetition. I saw on the Orndorff videos where he mentions using 2 short blasts of the air drill when going in out of the holes for final drilling skins to ribs and spars. Anything longer than a short "in and out" drilling session could make the holes larger than desired. Have a good turkey day, ya'll! Smitty's RV-9A http://SmittysRV.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:47:55 AM PST US From: "Dick DeCramer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: "Dick DeCramer" Jim... I labeled my panel with a cheap battery operated "Brother P-Touch" label maker and they had a cartridge with clear mylar tape and black and white lettering which I had to order through "Viking Office Supply" at www.viking.com . I think the tapes cost more than the machine. Due to my font size requirements it took 2 cartridges to get all my labels made for the entire airplane. The only negative is you must have very clean hands and tools as any dirty prints on the sticky side of the clear label will show through the label after it is in place. I used an Exacto knife and stuck the label just in the tip of the blade and transferred it to the panel. It looks very professional considering the low cost. Dick DeCramer RV6 N500DD 100 Hrs. Faribault, MN > > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note > functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can > make some labels? > > > Jim Nelson > RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:26 AM PST US From: G McNutt Subject: Re: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Hi Paul Re Aero Sport Power I drove to Kamloops on Tuesday and picked up my second Aero Sport engine. Sadly, I learned that if you are an American, you may not get the free hat with your engine. It's a Customs thing you see, hat made in China. You should however get the bottle of touch-up paint. Aero Sport had several engines ready to ship, they go as far as Europe and Australia. George In Langley BC Do not archive >>> >>> >>>I'm leaning toward Aerosport - dealing with them just feels right. >>>Anyone have any goods or others comments on their Great White North >>>experiences? >>> >>>Paul Valovich >>> >>>"Booger" >>> >>>Ridgecrest, CA >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:03 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" It continues to amaze me that some of our brethren will not blink twice when spending 60-70k or more to buy and finish an RV, Lancair, or Glasair and then wimp out when it comes to finishing the panel. What every pilot looks at most of the time he's in his pride and joy. The cost to get your panel professionally engraved is less then most of you think. FMI: www.engravers.net Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick DeCramer Subject: RE: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: "Dick DeCramer" Jim... I labeled my panel with a cheap battery operated "Brother P-Touch" label maker and they had a cartridge with clear mylar tape and black and white lettering which I had to order through "Viking Office Supply" at www.viking.com . I think the tapes cost more than the machine. Due to my font size requirements it took 2 cartridges to get all my labels made for the entire airplane. The only negative is you must have very clean hands and tools as any dirty prints on the sticky side of the clear label will show through the label after it is in place. I used an Exacto knife and stuck the label just in the tip of the blade and transferred it to the panel. It looks very professional considering the low cost. Dick DeCramer RV6 N500DD 100 Hrs. Faribault, MN > > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note > functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can > make some labels? > > > Jim Nelson > RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:45:24 AM PST US From: "Terry Watson" Subject: RV-List: Contributions INNOCENT GLOBAL 0.0000 1.0000 -4.4912 --> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" I have a lot of subscriptions. My Wall Street Journal costs about $175 a year; the Seattle Times another $135 or so. Then there are the business and professional magazines, and the science and technology and political periodicals, and the flying related magazines such as AOPA Pilot, EAA's Sport Aviation, Plane & Pilot, Flying, Private Pilot, GA News, Kit Planes, Light Plane Maintenance, and a few others that I can't think of at the moment. The point is that I spend well over a thousand dollars a year on newspaper and magazine subscriptions, and none of them come close to giving me the immediately useful information and entertainment that I get from just the few of Matt's lists that I subscribe to. AOPA Pilot doesn't tell me as much about flying experimental airplanes as just a few of test pilot Kevin Horton's posts to the RV list do. Kit Planes doesn't come close to telling me as much about building an RV as Sam Buchanan's or Dan Checkoway's web sites do, which of course I would never have known about had it not been for Matt's RV list. But I think the most impressive service that Matt brings to us is Bob Nuckolls on the Aeroelectric list. I am constantly amazed at the solid knowledge and patient good will that Bob brings to us about wiring little airplanes, and he does it for free. I have learned much more from Bob than the aeroelectric list name would suggest. I may not have had the fortitude to keep plugging along on the great project had it not been for the help and inspiration I get from reading the posts from you guys who have gone before or the many who have started after and already passed me by. So let Matt know that he makes your life better. Send him some money, and sleep soundly with a clear conscience, knowing that you have done your part to support truth, justice, and the airplane builder's way. Terry RV-8A #80829 Finishing? I promise it will fly someday. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:25 PM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: RV-List: Re: AeroElectric-List: Contributions --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins Well said, Terry! > ... The point is that I spend well over a thousand dollars a year on newspaper > and magazine subscriptions, and none of them come close to giving me the > immediately useful information and entertainment that I get from just the > few of Matt's lists that I subscribe to. AOPA Pilot doesn't tell me as much > about flying experimental airplanes as just a few of test pilot Kevin > Horton's posts to the RV list do. Kit Planes doesn't come close to telling > me as much about building an RV as Sam Buchanan's or Dan Checkoway's web > sites do, which of course I would never have known about had it not been for > Matt's RV list. But I think the most impressive service that Matt brings to > us is Bob Nuckolls on the Aeroelectric list. I am constantly amazed at the > solid knowledge and patient good will that Bob brings to us about wiring > little airplanes, and he does it for free. I have learned much more from Bob > than the aeroelectric list name would suggest. ... -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing do not archive ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:56:13 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Horizontal vs Vertical Induction Engines --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Note- Subject line changed to correct spelling of "Horizantal" to horizontal for the sake of future seekers of archive info. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Jensen" Subject: RE: RV-List: Horizantal vs Vertical Induction Engines ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:48 PM PST US From: "George Inman" Subject: RV-List: Engine bolts --> RV-List message posted by: "George Inman" Where do you buy engine bolts? These are like AN bolts but with course threads. I need 1/4" bolts to attach the crank sensor of my lightspeed ign. to front of the lycoming O360 George Inman ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:15 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine bolts --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss George, You can get these from Aircraft Spruce. The coarse thread bolts are listed in the paper catalog with the engine parts (carb bolts I think). They aren't shown with the rest of the standard fine thread AN hardware in the catalog. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "George Inman" > > Where do you buy engine bolts? > These are like AN bolts but with > course threads. > I need 1/4" bolts to attach the crank > sensor of my lightspeed ign. to front > of the lycoming O360 > >George Inman > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 03:18:45 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Check out the Brother line of labelmakers .... the chain office supply houses have lots to choose from. Linn do not archive James H Nelson wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > >I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note >functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can >make some labels? > > >Jim Nelson >RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) > -- Checked by AVG Free Edition. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:31:29 PM PST US From: linn walters Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine bolts --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters Not sure which places you're doing the bolting, but the coarse threaded bolts are standard 1/4-20 bolts, which you can purchase at any hardware store. Linn do not archive George Inman wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "George Inman" > > Where do you buy engine bolts? > These are like AN bolts but with > course threads. > I need 1/4" bolts to attach the crank > sensor of my lightspeed ign. to front > of the lycoming O360 > >George Inman > > > > -- Checked by AVG Free Edition. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:44 PM PST US From: "Bob C. " Subject: Re: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: "Bob C. " You can do it with Ptouch (White of Clear). I've played with it but havent done it yet. Good Luck, Bob Christensen RV-8 Bldr - SE Iowa On 11/24/05, James H Nelson wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note > functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can > make some labels? > > > Jim Nelson > RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:38:23 PM PST US From: "Jim Jewell" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine bolts --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Jewell" Hi George, Ask for grade 8 Cadmium plated bolts. These would be desirable for general use such as you suggest. Grade 5 will work (they are nickel plated) The markings on the heads identify the hardness. Maybe some one else can direct us to a bolt identification chart. if there is an industrial supply outlet in or near your area they will have the information needed. Tell them its for an RV and they won't choke on the "It's for an airplane" thing. Jim in Kelowna ----- Original Message ----- From: "linn walters" Subject: Re: RV-List: Engine bolts > --> RV-List message posted by: linn walters > > Not sure which places you're doing the bolting, but the coarse threaded > bolts are standard 1/4-20 bolts, which you can purchase at any hardware > store. > Linn > do not archive > > George Inman wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "George Inman" >> >> Where do you buy engine bolts? >> These are like AN bolts but with >> course threads. >> I need 1/4" bolts to attach the crank >> sensor of my lightspeed ign. to front >> of the lycoming O360 >> >>George Inman >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > > ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 06:19:57 PM PST US From: "Don Hall" Subject: RE: [SPAM] Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: "Don Hall" Most of the responses seem to focus on drilling or deburring as the culprit, but for me it is only after dimpling that I've run into 'loose cleco' syndrome, luckily only on a small percentage of holes so I just move the cleco to the hole above or below. Maybe overly aggressive deburring causes the problem, but doesn't manifest into a fit issue until it's mashed in the dimple die? Sounds like an easy experiment. Now the next question. How are the shop heads on those rivets in the loose holes? ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:01 PM PST US From: gerns25@netscape.net Subject: Re: [SPAM] Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: gerns25@netscape.net Don, The holes are just barely too large, not enough to make a difference in the shop heads of the rivets. The problem is that it becomes a PITA to hold the parts together while riveting. I have determined that the problem was deburring, at the time I didn't know any better but have learned my lesson. I used the speed deburring tool on the ribs but only one turn on each hole with very light pressure (I guess even this is too much on the thin aluminum). I have since done some testing on scrap and have come up with good results. I have also done testing with a #41 drill bit and the results are very good and I think I will use this bit in all future match drilling #40 holes. The only problem I have with the #41 is when the dimple is created using the pop rivet dimple die used for tight areas. This tool doesn't make the best dimples IMO and the rivet tends to be a bit too tight and doesn't set right. In this situation, the hole is drilled with the #40 bit. Thanks everybody for the info and advice. I really appreciate it as a newbie. DO NOT ARCHIVE Darin Hawkes RV7 Empennage N619PB Res. -----Original Message----- From: Don Hall Subject: RE: [SPAM] Re: RV-List: Dimpled skin and clecos --> RV-List message posted by: "Don Hall" Most of the responses seem to focus on drilling or deburring as the culprit, but for me it is only after dimpling that I've run into 'loose cleco' syndrome, luckily only on a small percentage of holes so I just move the cleco to the hole above or below. Maybe overly aggressive deburring causes the problem, but doesn't manifest into a fit issue until it's mashed in the dimple die? Sounds like an easy experiment. Now the next question. How are the shop heads on those rivets in the loose holes? Try the New Netscape Mail Today! Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List http://mail.netscape.com