---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 11/28/05: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:11 AM - Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The Lists"...? (Matt Dralle) 2. 04:16 AM - Re: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters (j. davis) 3. 04:21 AM - Re: Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The (Jerry Springer) 4. 06:13 AM - Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/05 (Esten Spears) 5. 07:08 AM - Re: Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/05 (Jeff Dowling) 6. 07:30 AM - Re: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters (CBRxxDRV@aol.com) 7. 08:00 AM - Used O-470 Engine Parts (Mark & Lisa) 8. 08:46 AM - Re: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters (Bob J) 9. 10:47 AM - AvMap EKP-IV and TRIO Avionics EZ Auto-pilot (Lockamy, Jack L) 10. 12:04 PM - Re: Printer labels with white ink (davercook) 11. 01:48 PM - AN fittings basic info () 12. 03:07 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Scott Bilinski) 13. 03:48 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Gerry Filby) 14. 04:05 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (William Gill) 15. 05:38 PM - Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT (sportav8r@aol.com) 16. 05:41 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Mark Grieve) 17. 07:19 PM - Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports (H.Ivan Haecker) 18. 07:27 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Gerry Filby) 19. 07:33 PM - Re: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT (Bill Schlatterer) 20. 07:39 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (William Gill) 21. 07:41 PM - Re: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT (Paul Besing) 22. 08:43 PM - Re: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT (Alan & Linda Daniels) 23. 09:04 PM - Re: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT (Dave Nellis) 24. 09:37 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Chris W) 25. 09:45 PM - Re: AN fittings basic info (Dave Saylor) 26. 10:27 PM - Re: Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports (David Leonard) 27. 11:10 PM - Re: Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports (Rob Prior (rv7)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:11:57 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The Lists"...? --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? Well, I've been working in the information technology industry for over 20 years primarily in computer networking design and implementation. I've also had a rather extensive background in web development and CGI design during this period. I started the Matronics Email Lists back in 1990 with about 30 fellow RV builders from around the world. Since that time, I have added 50 other kinds of aircraft related Lists to the line up and numerous other List related services such as the Archives and Search Engine just to name a few. For the upmost in flexibility and reliability, I have chosen to run all of my own servers here locally. Other support systems include a 1 Gigabit, fully switched network infrastructure, a commercial-grade Netscreen firewall, a Barracuda spam filter, a local T1 Internet router, and a commercial business T1 Internet connection with static addressing. The computer servers found here include two, dual processor Xeon Linux systems dedicated to the email and web functions respectfully, and another P4 Linux system serving as a remote storage disk farm for the archives, databases, and for an on-line, hard drive-based backup system with 3.2 Terabytes of storage. This entire system is protected by multiple commercial-grade uninterrupted power supply (UPS) systems that assure the Lists are available even during a local power outage! I recently upgraded all of the computer racking infrastructure including new power feeds and dedicated air conditioning for the room that serves as the Computer Center for the Matronics Email Lists. Here's a new composite photo of the List Computer Center following this Summer's upgrades! http://www.matronics.com/MattDralle-ListComputerCenter.jpg As you can see, I take running these Lists very seriously and I am dedicated to providing an always-on, 24x7x365 experience for each and every Lister. But building and running this system isn't cheap. As I've stated before, I don't support any of these systems with commercial advertising on the Lists. It is supported 100% through List member Contributions! That means you... and you... and YOU! To that end, I hold a List Fund Raiser each November and ask that members make a small Contribution to support the continued operation and upgrade of this ever-expanding system. Its solely YOUR Contributions that keep it running! Please make a Contribution today to support these Lists! http://www.matronics.com/contribution Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator Matt G Dralle | Matronics | PO Box 347 | Livermore | CA | 94551 925-606-1001 V | 925-606-6281 F | dralle@matronics.com Email http://www.matronics.com/ WWW | Featuring Products For Aircraft do not archive ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:35 AM PST US From: "j. davis" Subject: Re: RV-List: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters --> RV-List message posted by: "j. davis" CBRxxDRV@aol.com wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com > >In a message dated 11/23/05 2:47:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, jim@pellien.com >writes: > > > > >>Does anybody know of a cheap place to buy spark plugs and oil filters for >>the Rotax 912ULS engine? >> >> >> > >Oil Filter: > >If my memory serves me....a Fram PH3614 is the one you need >or you can even cross it over to other brands. A 4 cyl Chrysler K-car >I think is the application . > >Do a search on Google.com to be sure. > > > > I have been warned by Rotax mechanics that substituting an automotive oil filter for a genuine Rotax filter is not recommended: the Rotax engine develops significantly higher oil pressures than automotive engines, so you could unknowingly be bypassing your filter via the high pressure bypass. > > > > -- Regards, J. built: Zenith STOL CH701/912 C-IGGY, 250 hrs. building: Sonex #325, Jabiru 3300/6, 50% completed Brandywine Aviation: N42 47.33 W081 36.50 13/31, 2400', 760'elev. | J. Davis, M.Sc. (comp_sci) | *NIX guru, consultant | | Research Programmer, SysMgr | email: jd at lawsonimaging.ca | | Lawson Health Research Inst | voice: 519 6466100 x64166 | | London, Ontario | fax: 519 6466399 | | Canada | http://www.cleco.ca | Everywhere is walking distance if you have the time. --- Steven Wright ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:21:09 AM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Please Read - Who is "Matt Dralle" and What are "The Lists"...? --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Matt Dralle wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle > > >Dear Listers, > >Who is Matt Dralle and what exactly are these Lists? > Wow Matt, that looks a lot different than it did when I was at your house and there were computers stacked on top of computers. :-) Nice job!!! The only problem that I see is that the RV-4 is still not done.:( Jerry do not archive ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:43 AM PST US From: "Esten Spears" Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/05 --> RV-List message posted by: "Esten Spears" Ron, I must be missing something on this thread. Most panel mount GPS's don't even require a Porcine Coupler to work with a Navaid. The Porcine Coupler was developed so people could use handheld GPS's to drive Navaids. Panel Mounts, like my Garmin XL 250 use the "+LEFT" and "+RIGHT" Indicator Drive Output directly into the Navaid. I would be interested to know what "course deviation sensitivity" people have found to work best with a RV/Panel Mount GPS/Navaid Setup since this can be set in the GPS Setup Screens. Thanks! Esten Spears, Leeward Air Ranch, RV8A, 80922, N922ES, - FWF > Time: 05:20:08 AM PST US > From: "Ron Brown" > Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Navaid Coupler with Panel Mount GPS > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" > > I got a question yesterday about my Navaid Auto Pilot with Porcine GPS > Coupler and Panel Mounted GPS's. > > I got my Garmin 430 to work with my Navaid after getting Porcine's latest > coupler update. The problem is that most panel mounted GPS's do not > transmit the NEMA RS232 data streams that are common to hand held GPS's - > rather they transmit a data stream called "aviation". The Porcine couplers > have worked well with hand held GPS's but not "aviation", that is until the > update that was made in 2004. I got around to getting this update this > summer and IT WORKS! The aviation data stream will need to be set to > "aviation - no altitude". > > Ronnie Brown > Velocity N703MR ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:08:50 AM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/05 --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" I called Navaid and set what they recommended. It was a pretty small scale but I forgot what it was. Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Esten Spears" Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Digest: 14 Msgs - 11/27/05 > --> RV-List message posted by: "Esten Spears" > > Ron, > I must be missing something on this thread. Most panel mount GPS's > don't even require a Porcine Coupler to work with a Navaid. The Porcine > Coupler was developed so people could use handheld GPS's to drive Navaids. > Panel Mounts, like my Garmin XL 250 use the "+LEFT" and "+RIGHT" > Indicator Drive Output directly into the Navaid. > I would be interested to know what "course deviation sensitivity" > people have found to work best with a RV/Panel Mount GPS/Navaid Setup > since this can be set in the GPS Setup Screens. > Thanks! > Esten Spears, Leeward Air Ranch, RV8A, 80922, N922ES, - FWF > >> Time: 05:20:08 AM PST US >> From: "Ron Brown" >> Subject: RV-List: Re: RV-List Navaid Coupler with Panel Mount GPS >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ron Brown" >> >> I got a question yesterday about my Navaid Auto Pilot with Porcine GPS >> Coupler and Panel Mounted GPS's. >> >> I got my Garmin 430 to work with my Navaid after getting Porcine's latest >> coupler update. The problem is that most panel mounted GPS's do not >> transmit the NEMA RS232 data streams that are common to hand held GPS's - >> rather they transmit a data stream called "aviation". The Porcine >> couplers >> have worked well with hand held GPS's but not "aviation", that is until >> the >> update that was made in 2004. I got around to getting this update this >> summer and IT WORKS! The aviation data stream will need to be set to >> "aviation - no altitude". >> >> Ronnie Brown >> Velocity N703MR > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:30:15 AM PST US From: CBRxxDRV@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters --> RV-List message posted by: CBRxxDRV@aol.com In a message dated 11/28/2005 7:19:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, jd@lawsonimaging.ca writes: > I have been warned by Rotax mechanics that substituting an > automotive oil filter for a genuine Rotax filter is not recommended: > the Rotax engine develops significantly higher oil pressures than > automotive engines, so you could unknowingly be bypassing your > filter via the high pressure bypass. > There is a by-pass in the Rotax filter that is not found on the fram and auto filters. The by-pass allows oil to flow even with a cloged filter....I think Phil Lockwood had told me this. Rans has always run Fram (auto) filters on thier factory planes as well other manufacturers I have seen at airshows. I think N 912SC now has over 400 fram hours on it .....I may need to check with the current owner. But as always YMMV . I have had 2 912's with fram filters. I dug pretty deep before I made the switch and was satisfied with what I had found. Sal do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:00:49 AM PST US From: "Mark & Lisa" Subject: RV-List: Used O-470 Engine Parts --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark & Lisa" Listers, Have a friend with an airboat sporting an inop Cont O-470. Anyone have a source of used (uncertifiable, out of spec, etc.) parts? My thought is we can probably get this thing running well enough for use on the local duck pond with throw-away (for aviation use anyway) parts. Thanks in advance, Mark ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:19 AM PST US From: Bob J Subject: Re: RV-List: 912ULS Spark Plugs and Oil Filters --> RV-List message posted by: Bob J > > I have been warned by Rotax mechanics that substituting an > automotive oil filter for a genuine Rotax filter is not recommended: > the Rotax engine develops significantly higher oil pressures than > automotive engines, so you could unknowingly be bypassing your > filter via the high pressure bypass. > You need to have your mechanics explain to you the technical reasons why you wouldn't substitute filters...I'll bet you they can't. High operating oil pressures have nothing to do with bypass valve operation. Bypass valves for filters are spec'ed by the filter manufacturers as a low number. This low number is the amount of pressure *differential* from the inlet side to the outlet side of the filter; in other words, across the filter. Once pressure comes up, there should be little pressure differential. I avoid Fram filters, there is plenty of information on the web regarding which filters perform the best. Fram is always at the bottom of those lists. I use a Wix 51068 on my O-360, not the standard Champion 48110. It bypasses at 8-11 psi. It has a anti-drainback valve which the 48110 doesn't. After an oil change I can leave the filter over a cup to drain out for a few days, once I cut it open I can dump 1/2 qt. of oil out of it. The benefit of this is that there is always oil inside the filter, so during cranking it takes less time for the galleys and filter to pressurize and fill with oil, which has obvious wear benefits. On one oil analysis, Blackstone stated that the numbers looked like what they see for 35 hr. oil even though my change interval is 50 hours. The other great thing about using this filter is it only costs $5.79, and judging by my past oil analyses, filters better than the 48110. No there's no safety nut on it, and I am comfortable with not having the filter safety wired. Regards, Bob Japundza RV-6 flying, F1 under const. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:26 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: AvMap EKP-IV and TRIO Avionics EZ Auto-pilot From: "Lockamy, Jack L" --> RV-List message posted by: "Lockamy, Jack L" Is there anyone on the list currently flying an AvMap EKP-IV GPS (see www.avmapnavigation.com) that is connected and sending serial data to their Trio Avionics EZ Auto-pilot (see www.trioavionics.com)? If so, would you please contact me off list at: jacklockamy@verizon.net or jack.lockamy@navy.mil? I have a question... Thanks in advance, Jack Lockamy RV-7A N174JL 112.0 hrs www.jacklockamy.com Camarillo, CA do not archive ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:11 PM PST US From: "davercook" Subject: Re: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink --> RV-List message posted by: "davercook" Hi Jim The labels are TZ-S135 ,available on the Brothers Web site. I use the P-touch 1180 labeler. Dave Cook RV-6 Finish Kit N815DC Res. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James H Nelson" Subject: RV-List: Printer labels with white ink > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > I have a medium grey panel and need white letters on clear labels to note > functions. Who makes a white ink cartridge for what printer so I can > make some labels? > > > Jim Nelson > RV9-A (wiring done, on to the canopy) > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:48:28 PM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Howdy Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing AC 43.13 (1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe thread portions of fittings, correct? (2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual torque applied? One archive post referred to installation instructions at http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube Installation". Huh? (3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double flare? (4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they go on both sides or just one? Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:26 PM PST US From: Scott Bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Scott Bilinski From my experience, tighten until they no longer leak! Not trying to be a smart ass here but it is amazing just how tight they need to be in order to not leak. It varies a lot from fitting to fitting, even though they are "the same fitting" just different location. Remember your not building a Swiss watch. At 04:47 PM 11/28/2005 -0500, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: > >Howdy > >Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still have a few >questions after searching the archives and perusing AC 43.13 > >(1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe thread >portions of fittings, correct? > >(2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening fittings on >flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, but how does one use a >torque wrench on a fitting when the tubing coming out of it would prevent >any socket from gong over it? Can I safely tighten these without >measuring the actual torque applied? One archive post referred to >installation instructions at >http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, which >talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins to bottom. This >only confused me, because while it talks about how far to turn the nut >after it bottoms and cites common problems like the flare being >distorted/cracked/out of round etc, it was all under a heading of >"Flareless Tube Installation". Huh? > >(3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for tubing >with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double flare? > >(4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers are used. >I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they go on both sides or >just one? > >Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. > >Erich Weaver > > Scott Bilinski Eng dept 305 Phone (858) 657-2536 Pager (858) 502-5190 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:48:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info From: Gerry Filby --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby If you want to use a torque wrench on AN flare fittings - fit a "crowsfoot" extension to the square socket drive. You have to recalculate the torque setting required as a factor of the change in length of the torque wrench caused by the extension. This is the same method you use on rod end jam nuts. There's a section on this in that Advisory Circular published by the FAA - I think its called "Acceptable Aircraft Repair Techniques" or something like that. The collective wisdom I've gathered on lube and AN fittings is to use a teflon based paste on pipe threads only. Don't use ANYTHING on flared fittings - the compression caused between the 37 degree flared faces is sufficient for a gas/fluid seal. As to torque settings for the flare fitting - I hope someone else can enlighten - I haven't found anything so far ... g > > --> RV-List message posted by: > > Howdy > > Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still > have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing > AC 43.13 > > (1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe > thread portions of fittings, correct? > > (2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening > fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, > but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the > tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over > it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual > torque applied? One archive post referred to installation > instructions at > http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, > which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins > to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about > how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common > problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round > etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube > Installation". Huh? > > (3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for > tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double > flare? > > (4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers > are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they > go on both sides or just one? > > Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. > > Erich Weaver > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:50 PM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: RE: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: "William Gill" Erich, Here's what I learned from our company A&P many months ago. I can't recall the reference. -4 fitting: 40 - 60 inch-pounds -6 fitting: 110 - 130 inch-pounds Also, Dan has a torque calculator on his site when an extension such as a "crow's feet" is used. Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of erichweaver@cox.net Subject: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Howdy Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing AC 43.13 (1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe thread portions of fittings, correct? (2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual torque applied? One archive post referred to installation instructions at http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube Installation". Huh? (3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double flare? (4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they go on both sides or just one? Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. Erich Weaver ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 05:38:08 PM PST US From: sportav8r@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Ok, everyone, I'm ready to better myself through the pursuit of an IFR ticket. First step seems obvious: take ground school at home on the laptop with a CDROM or DVD course, and practice with a flight sim that will emulate (or come close) my RV-6A. I'd appreciate recommendations based on firsthand knowledge to help guide my shopping. I'd hate to buy a lemon off eBay when the List could have steered me in a better direction. Looking for course, textbook and sim software & hardware recommendations. Thanks in advance. Off-list responses okay if you feel this is not of general/archival interest. -Stormy ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 05:41:26 PM PST US From: Mark Grieve Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Mark Grieve erichweaver@cox.net wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: > >Howdy > >Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing AC 43.13 > >(1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe thread portions of fittings, correct? > >(2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual torque applied? One archive post referred to installation instructions at http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube Installation". Huh? > >(3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double flare? > >(4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they go on both sides or just one? > >Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. > >Erich Weaver > > > > Excellent questions Erich! You won't learn if you don't ask questions. Since most of the other questions have been answered, I'll tackle #3. A double flare is formed using a really spiffy tool. The end of the tube is folded back into the flare which gives the flare double thickness. Read extra strength. The small diameter tubing just doesn't have much material to work with if you are only doing a single flare. I found this picture which should help explain. http://www.phi-tulip.com/images/flaredr.gif Happy building Mark ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:23 PM PST US From: "H.Ivan Haecker" Subject: RV-List: Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports --> RV-List message posted by: "H.Ivan Haecker" The following is not RV specific. Delete now if this offends you. The HOA at a residential airport where I have purchased property wants to keep traffic on one side of the runway. So the pattern in one direction will be right-handed (non-conventional). My question(s) to those knowledgeable on the subject are: 1) Does an HOA as the owner of an airport have control over a traffic pattern? 2) Does any airport that is privately owned have such control? I see many open-to the-public but privately owned airports with notations on Sectional charts for right traffic on certain runways. I have yet to see this on a Sectional chart for private runways. 3) If a runway is uncontrolled, can't you fly any pattern you deem appropriate (albeit at the risk of safety and the risk of irate people on the ground when you land!) Curious minds want to know. I don't have a beef with anyone over anything. I am just interested. Ivan Haecker -4 1209 hrs. S. Cen. TX ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:27:26 PM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info From: Gerry Filby --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby BTW the FAA publication I mentioned is: US Department of Transportation Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection And Repair". Its typical government speak, but its stuffed with excellent information ... g > > --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby > > > If you want to use a torque wrench on AN flare fittings - fit a > "crowsfoot" extension to the square socket drive. You have to > recalculate the torque setting required as a factor of the > change in length of the torque wrench caused by the extension. > This is the same method you use on rod end jam nuts. There's a > section on this in that Advisory Circular published by the FAA > - I think its called "Acceptable Aircraft Repair Techniques" or > something like that. > > The collective wisdom I've gathered on lube and AN fittings is > to use a teflon based paste on pipe threads only. Don't use > ANYTHING on flared fittings - the compression caused between > the 37 degree flared faces is sufficient for a gas/fluid seal. > > As to torque settings for the flare fitting - I hope someone > else can enlighten - I haven't found anything so far ... > > g > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: > > > > Howdy > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still > > have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing > > AC 43.13 > > > > (1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe > > thread portions of fittings, correct? > > > > (2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening > > fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, > > but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the > > tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over > > it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual > > torque applied? One archive post referred to installation > > instructions at > > http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, > > which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins > > to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about > > how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common > > problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round > > etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube > > Installation". Huh? > > > > (3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for > > tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double > > flare? > > > > (4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers > > are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they > > go on both sides or just one? > > > > Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. > > > > Erich Weaver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:45 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" Stormy, having just "been there, done it" I can really say that it's a worthwhile project particularly if you want to go somewhere on a schedule. So here is my .02 1) Get a good instructor, you have to have a sign off anyway. Fly an hour with them and THEN get their thoughts on how long it might take. 2) Get the Gleims CD for Instrument Pilot written, it's a much better learning experience than either Jeppeson or King. 3) Review the DVD sessions just to give you the general idea. Not near enough information but a great introduction. 4) Do it all as quickly as possible. Get it over with. Older/experienced minds don't retain details for long :-) 5) Microsoft Flight Sim 2004 is about as good as it gets but it does not have all approaches. 6) Do it in an airplane without a ADF :-) and with a good GPS/VOR. 7) Get the Jeppeson IFR kneeboard organizer, it is worth the money for a number of reasons. Good Luck Bill S 7a Ark fuse panel do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com Ok, everyone, I'm ready to better myself through the pursuit of an IFR ticket. First step seems obvious: take ground school at home on the laptop with a CDROM or DVD course, and practice with a flight sim that will emulate (or come close) my RV-6A. I'd appreciate recommendations based on firsthand knowledge to help guide my shopping. I'd hate to buy a lemon off eBay when the List could have steered me in a better direction. Looking for course, textbook and sim software & hardware recommendations. Thanks in advance. Off-list responses okay if you feel this is not of general/archival interest. -Stormy ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:30 PM PST US From: "William Gill" Subject: RE: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: "William Gill" Chapter 5, page 117 of AC65-9A has the torque table for the AN fittings. Google AC65-9A and select the 8th or 9th item on the list to find this in PDF format (select chapter 5, then go to page 117). Bill -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Filby Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby BTW the FAA publication I mentioned is: US Department of Transportation Advisory Circular AC 43.13-1B "Acceptable Methods, Techniques, and Practices - Aircraft Inspection And Repair". Its typical government speak, but its stuffed with excellent information ... g > > --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby > > > If you want to use a torque wrench on AN flare fittings - fit a > "crowsfoot" extension to the square socket drive. You have to > recalculate the torque setting required as a factor of the > change in length of the torque wrench caused by the extension. > This is the same method you use on rod end jam nuts. There's a > section on this in that Advisory Circular published by the FAA > - I think its called "Acceptable Aircraft Repair Techniques" or > something like that. > > The collective wisdom I've gathered on lube and AN fittings is > to use a teflon based paste on pipe threads only. Don't use > ANYTHING on flared fittings - the compression caused between > the 37 degree flared faces is sufficient for a gas/fluid seal. > > As to torque settings for the flare fitting - I hope someone > else can enlighten - I haven't found anything so far ... > > g > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: > > > > Howdy > > > > Excuse my ignorance, but AN fittings are new to me, and I still > > have a few questions after searching the archives and perusing > > AC 43.13 > > > > (1)Sounds like lubricants are off limits except for the pipe > > thread portions of fittings, correct? > > > > (2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening > > fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications, > > but how does one use a torque wrench on a fitting when the > > tubing coming out of it would prevent any socket from gong over > > it? Can I safely tighten these without measuring the actual > > torque applied? One archive post referred to installation > > instructions at > > http://avstop.com/AC/apgeneral/INSTALLATIONOFRIGIDTUBING/html, > > which talked about how many turns to apply after the nut begins > > to bottom. This only confused me, because while it talks about > > how far to turn the nut after it bottoms and cites common > > problems like the flare being distorted/cracked/out of round > > etc, it was all under a heading of "Flareless Tube > > Installation". Huh? > > > > (3) AC 43.13 indicates that a "double flare" should be used for > > tubing with a diamter of 3/8 inch and less. Whats a double > > flare? > > > > (4)I have seen photos of bulkhead fittings where spacer washers > > are used. I there a rule of thumb on when to use these? Do they > > go on both sides or just one? > > > > Ignorance is not bliss in this case. My head hurts. > > > > Erich Weaver > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:03 PM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: Re: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing I used king schools for private, instrument, commercial, multi, and CFI/CFII. I like their materials alot, and found them to prepare you quite well for the written exam. Microsoft flight sim is great for procedural stuff. Get a CFII to teach you the basics of approaches and such, and you'd be amazed at what a good tool it is. Paul Besing --- sportav8r@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > > Ok, everyone, I'm ready to better myself through the > pursuit of an IFR ticket. First step seems obvious: > take ground school at home on the laptop with a > CDROM or DVD course, and practice with a flight sim > that will emulate (or come close) my RV-6A. > > I'd appreciate recommendations based on firsthand > knowledge to help guide my shopping. I'd hate to > buy a lemon off eBay when the List could have > steered me in a better direction. Looking for > course, textbook and sim software & hardware > recommendations. > > Thanks in advance. Off-list responses okay if you > feel this is not of general/archival interest. > > -Stormy > > > > Click on > about > provided > www.buildersbooks.com, > Admin. > _-> > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:10 PM PST US From: Alan & Linda Daniels Subject: Re: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels I did it on the King tapes, pre DVD, with no problems. For me it was much better to go to a school out of town and away from my business for a couple days a couple times. This let me concentrate on what I was doing without constant interruptions which would have made it very difficult. . The learning curve is pretty steep, but when the light finally came on - a very dim light- it all made sense. RV-9 wings Bill Schlatterer wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" > >Stormy, having just "been there, done it" I can really say that it's a > > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:04 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Hive mind sought on IFR training courses - OT --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis http://www.x-plane.com http://www.x-plane.org The first site is the developer of the program. Top notch flying characteristics. You can change any weather perameter you wish. I have flown a G5 in terrible thunderstorms, in the clouds and learned how to hold course while getting tossed like tonights salad. You are in contact with ATC (vocal/text to you, text to ATC)at all times while IFR. Shooting approaches into an airport setting the cloud deck at 200 feet test your mettle. Navcomm freqs are used, HSI, CDI and any other alphabet instruments are available. You can design the instrument panel to be exactly like the plane you would be using for IFR training. This program is not a game. It can be used used for logging sim time toward an ATP rating. The ground graphics leave a lot to be desired, but if that is what you want, get MS flight sim 200x. The second site is an aircraft developer's site. Download an aircraft, modify it if you want, and fly. Other add ons are available as well. I fly this sim through the winter when flying weather is at a premium here in Michigan. I find it helps keep procedures sharp and hands and feet coordinated. BTW, I am not a computer gamer. I do use a joystick and rudder pedals. My $.02. Dave --- sportav8r@aol.com wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com > > Ok, everyone, I'm ready to better myself through the > pursuit of an IFR ticket. First step seems obvious: > take ground school at home on the laptop with a > CDROM or DVD course, and practice with a flight sim > that will emulate (or come close) my RV-6A. > > I'd appreciate recommendations based on firsthand > knowledge to help guide my shopping. I'd hate to > buy a lemon off eBay when the List could have > steered me in a better direction. Looking for > course, textbook and sim software & hardware > recommendations. > > Thanks in advance. Off-list responses okay if you > feel this is not of general/archival interest. > > -Stormy > > > > Click on > about > provided > www.buildersbooks.com, > Admin. > _-> > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > > > > > __________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 09:37:31 PM PST US From: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net> Subject: Re: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <1qazxsw23edcvfr45tgbnhy67ujm@cox.net> erichweaver@cox.net wrote: >(2)Im confused about the proper technique for tightening fittings on flared tubing. I have found torque specifications > The problem with using a torque value is they are written for a certain metal with a certain finish, if you use a fitting with a different metal or different finish or a tiny bit oil or other liquid gets on the threads or other part of the fitting those torque values are worthless. A better and much easier method is the called the FFFT or Flats From Finger Tight method, this method works no mater what the surface condition of the fitting is weather or not it is wet or dry. The quote below is from pdf file published by Parker. Parker is one of the biggest manufactures of fittings, so they should know what they are talking about. I don't know where on the site the pdf file is but you can probably find it a parker.com/ When I worked for a construction equipment manufacture the 37 degree flare fittings were all that we used on hoses and tubing for hydraulic lines at 3000+ PSI. When working on hydraulics it is impossible to not get the hydraulic oil on the fittings, and with the oil on them the torque numbers don't work so we always used the FFFT method. Well it looks like too much work to copy and past all the charts and stuff from the PDF so I found the link http://www.parker.com/tfd/cat/pdffiles/T-Assembly Installation.pdf Note it looks like they now like to call it FFWR or Flats From Wrench Resistance. If you want to start at the beginning and see the whole fittings catalog start here... http://www.parker.com/tfd/cat/pdffiles/Open.pdf -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:51 PM PST US From: "Dave Saylor" Subject: RE: RV-List: AN fittings basic info --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Saylor" Erich, Maybe relating some real world experience will be helpful. (1) You are correct that lubes and sealants are not needed on B-nuts. The threads on the B-nut play no part in making the physical seal. All the sealing takes place at the flare; the B-nut provides pressure against the ferrule to seal the female flare against the male cone. A correctly flared tube and B-nut will not come loose by itself, even without sealant or locking compound. I have seen a very few instances of saftied B-nuts. These have been on turbine helicopter engines and in other places were a failure would be instantly catastrophic. I can't think of an application on an RV that would need a saftied B-nut. (2) In A&P school they showed us a set of special open-end torque wrenches in a walnut case, years out of calibration, that were never ever used. In the following 20 years as a GA A&P I haven't seen one since. You will get the hang of torquing B-nuts by hand. If you want to check the quality of flares and look for leaks you can pressurize most circuits with shop air (NOT FUEL TANKS!!!) and check for leaks with soapy water. As a general rule the B-nut should thread onto the fitting without any interference and virtually no drag. Any drag usually indicates interference or misalignment. The nut will come to a firm stop when it bottoms on the ferrule edge. From there it needs only moderate pressure to stay tight, much less than a whole turn, maybe 1/6 or 2/3. You could use the values you found on some practice parts, with the tube cut short, to get the feel for how tight to make them. (3) A double flare needs an expensive tool to fabricate. It folds the flare back in on itself making the flare two wall thicknesses deep. We have fabricated many 1K+ psi hydraulic and oxygen systems using single flares. The biggest problem I see in flaring is getting the flare size correct. We use a Rigid flaring tool that makes nice flares if we leave the tube a little shy of the clamp edge, which is not where one would naturally set it. Like torquing, it just takes a few practice runs. (4) I'm not quite sure what you mean by spacer washers. Large area washers help spread out the load in soft materials, ie, composites/wood, etc. You could space a bulkhead fitting back if it helped line up a tube or hose but there is no general requirement to use them. If you have questions, feel free to email or call our shop any time. I'd be glad to get you more information. Happy Flaring, Dave Saylor AirCrafters LLC 831-722-9141 Bolting my -10 empennage together ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:27:31 PM PST US From: David Leonard Subject: Re: RV-List: Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports --> RV-List message posted by: David Leonard Ivan, This is just my understanding and is probably not entirely correct. I believe that an owner can only request that operations at his airport be done in a particular way, but there is no particular way to enforce these requests other than not allowing violators access (the owner obviously has the authority to do that). In general, traffic pattern policy at any airport is just a recommendation and a statement general policy at that airport. Done for reasons of safety and or noise abatement they allow for everyone to be on the same page. However, the pilot has the ultimate responsibility for safety and deviations from the standard are OK when the conditions dictate. I thought that noise abatement was voluntary, but one of our local airports has found a way to send you a ticket if your plane is louder than certain levels as measured by sensors in the departure path. So that shows you what I know. Dave Leonard On 11/28/05, H.Ivan Haecker wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: "H.Ivan Haecker" > > The following is not RV specific. Delete now if this offends you. > > The HOA at a residential airport where I have purchased property wants to > keep traffic on one side of the runway. So the pattern in one direction will > be right-handed (non-conventional). My question(s) to those knowledgeable on > the subject are: > > 1) Does an HOA as the owner of an airport have control over a traffic > pattern? > > 2) Does any airport that is privately owned have such control? I see many > open-to the-public but privately owned airports with notations on Sectional > charts for right traffic on certain runways. I have yet to see this on a > Sectional chart for private runways. > > 3) If a runway is uncontrolled, can't you fly any pattern you deem > appropriate (albeit at the risk of safety and the risk of irate people on > the ground when you land!) > > Curious minds want to know. I don't have a beef with anyone over anything. > I am just interested. > > Ivan Haecker -4 1209 hrs. S. Cen. TX -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:10:54 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: Re: RV-List: Off -Topic: Traffic Patterns @ Private Aiports --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 19:18:14 2005-11-28 "H.Ivan Haecker" wrote: > 1) Does an HOA as the owner of an airport have control over a traffic > pattern? Legally? Maybe not. But practically, he can raise a lot of trouble for you if you don't follow the procedures. Do you need prior permission to fly into a private strip? If so, then he can easily claim you don't have it, and get you violated for that. > 3) If a runway is uncontrolled, can't you fly any pattern you deem > appropriate (albeit at the risk of safety and the risk of irate people > on the ground when you land!) In Canada, you can't just fly any pattern you want to. If it's uncontrolled, and largely inactive, it's unlikely anyone will see you if you choose to do something contrary to local policy. But be forewarned that if you do, you risk aggravating whoever or whatever is located on the upwind side of the airport. If it's a housing development, and the airport owner has made a voluntary agreement to try and abate noise by keeping the circuit to one side, and if you make it your mission to fly on the wrong side, you can expect the owners to make it their mission to close the strip. This will make you very unpopular with the airstrip owner and the other users of the strip. There is nothing unsafe about a right-hand pattern at an uncontrolled field where this pattern is the standard procedure. My home airport also has all circuits to one side, and it works very very well. All approaches are from one side at circuit altitude. You do your wind check at midfield, and choose the downwind (left or right) at that point. In some ways, it makes it simpler because you don't need to overfly or circle around waiting for someone to make a radio call in order to figure out what the wind is doing first. > Curious minds want to know. I don't have a beef with anyone over > anything. I am just interested. Not to offend, but the way the questions were worded to gave me the impression that someone you know is one of those "i'll do whatever I damn well please" types, who won't listen to local rules (or to reason). I hope someone answers with some more definitive answers with respect to the regs. -Rob