---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 12/20/05: 36 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:30 AM - Re: Re: Insurance and Brake Fluid (Vanremog@aol.com) 2. 12:42 AM - Re: Modifications, airworthiness and insurance. (Ed Holyoke) 3. 02:53 AM - Re: Re: Brake fluid-Skydrol (Chuck Jensen) 4. 05:34 AM - Torque settings for screws? (Peter Mather) 5. 06:40 AM - That wicked riveting "nibble" idea ... (Glen Matejcek) 6. 07:19 AM - firewall penetration points (Glen Matejcek) 7. 07:36 AM - RC RV-8 model (Ken Brooks) 8. 09:03 AM - Re: firewall penetration points (Walter Tondu) 9. 09:03 AM - Wings before engine? (Geoff Evans) 10. 09:30 AM - Re: Wings before engine? (Richard Seiders) 11. 10:21 AM - Re: Wings before engine? (Gerry Filby) 12. 10:25 AM - Re: Wings before engine? (John Danielson) 13. 10:38 AM - Re: Wings before engine? (Dave Bristol) 14. 10:49 AM - Re: Wings before engine? (JOHN STARN) 15. 01:07 PM - Re: Re: Brake fluid-Skydrol (Jim Oke) 16. 01:42 PM - Re: Wings before engine? (scott bilinski) 17. 01:56 PM - Re: Brake fluid-Skydrol (Keith Norton) 18. 02:39 PM - Re: Need input (Dan) 19. 03:26 PM - Re: Wings before engine? (Alex Peterson) 20. 03:34 PM - Re: Correction: Compatiblity of MIL H 83282 with MIL_H-5606 (Konrad L. Werner) 21. 03:36 PM - Re: firewall penetration points (DonVS) 22. 03:40 PM - Vortex generators (charles heathco) 23. 03:42 PM - Rv's in Fayettville/Drake (charles heathco) 24. 05:04 PM - Re: Wings before engine? (Geoff Evans) 25. 05:07 PM - Re: firewall penetration points (Jerry Grimmonpre) 26. 05:48 PM - Re: Re: Brake fluid-Skydrol (The Hall's) 27. 05:57 PM - Re: Vortex generators (ronlee@pcisys.net) 28. 07:30 PM - Re: firewall penetration points (Dan Checkoway) 29. 07:43 PM - Re: Need input (Vanremog@aol.com) 30. 08:02 PM - Re: firewall penetration points (DonVS) 31. 08:18 PM - Re: Re: Brake fluid-Skydrol (Charlie Kuss) 32. 08:48 PM - Re: RV's in Fayetteville/Drake (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 33. 08:54 PM - >Re: Vortex Generators (Oldsfolks@aol.com) 34. 08:56 PM - Re: Wings before engine? (Paul Rice) 35. 09:44 PM - Re: Wings before engine? (Dan) 36. 09:59 PM - Re: firewall penetration points (Mark Burns) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:30:39 AM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Insurance and Brake Fluid --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 12/19/2005 5:29:58 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, mick-matronics@rv8.ch writes: Just curious - does anyone offer an o-ring replacement kit for RV brakes that would allow us to use DOT3/4/5.1 brake fluid? I guess I could "roll my own", but I'm pretty lazy. Just change the O-rings from the standard Nitrile (Buna-n) to EPDM and you're go to go. The sizes used are 2-110 and 2-113 for the Cleveland masters and 2-218 for the Cleveland calipers. Just spec these sizes in EPDM. Ace Seal sells them. Check the Yeller Pages for contact info. If you have anything else in the lines such as a parking brake valve or shuttle valves, you're own your own to determine the seal sizes you will need. How much easier do you want it? GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 771hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:42:22 AM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Modifications, airworthiness and insurance. --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Dean, You're right except for a few small points: The new oplims require you to comply with 91.319(b) which requires one to demonstrate that the aircraft is controllable etc. It's not strictly speaking phase 1, though. The new oplims require you to notify the local FSDO of the location of the proposed test area and obtain concurrence as to the suitability of the test area. (Note: you do not have to have their permission to do a modification and you don't need an inspection.) The notification and concurrence could be as easy as a phone call to the FSDO if you plan to use the test area that's spelled out in your oplims. I'd make a note in the maintenance log of who you talked to and the date/time just to be covered. If the major change includes a different make or model of engine or prop, you've got to fill out a revised form 8130-6 application for airworthiness certificate. Pax, Ed Holyoke -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS Subject: RV-List: Modifications, airworthiness and insurance. --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" >With the new operating limitations we ARE allowed to perform major mods (after obtaining our airworthiness certificates) without contacting the FAA. But, we MUST log the change, PLACE OURSELVES BACK INTO PHASE 1 FLIGHT TEST AND, sign off the test time just as we did when we first flew our pocket rockets. Just FYI!! Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM All FWF parts are on the airplane(except a bit of wiring) -----Original Message----- Time: 08:14:06 PM PST US From: Sam Buchanan Subject: Re: RV-List: Insurance and Brake Fluid .....They will have to pry my experimental airworthiness certificate out of my cold, cold hands before I would ever agree to telling the insurance carrier of the mods in my RV-6!...... IT IS NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS!!!!!!!! There.......I feel better............. Sam Buchanan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:53:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol From: "Chuck Jensen" --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" Hi, Dean, I think you're hoping the Skydrol is hydrophobic and not hygroscopic? Chuck Jensen Do Not Archive > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list- > server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of DEAN PSIROPOULOS > Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:03 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol > > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > Charlie are you sure about the Skydrol? We were on a flight test in a > DHC8-400 a while back which blew a propeller governor seal and sprayed the > fuse with fluid. We had a mechanic on board and he was talking about > skydrol and how it was (if I recall correctly) surfactant based. He > talked > about how you could tell if it was skydrol by putting a little bit on your > tongue and that the manufacturer bragged about how NON TOXIC it is. I > hadn't heard anyone mention skydrol until you did but have been wondering > if > maybe IT is the ideal brake fluid for use in our aircraft (my > understanding > was that it was NON toxic and NON flammable which, to me, sounds ideal, > even > with the extra cost, lets just hope it's hygroscopic also). Maybe an A&P > with experience on large commercial aircraft can clear up my confusion? > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > No airframe/engine parts left in the FWF kit (still some wiring though) > > > -----Original Message----- > Time: 11:54:54 AM PST US > From: Charlie Kuss > Subject: Re: RV-List: DOT-5 Brake Fluid > > ..... Interestingly, it is good for use with Skydrol. However Skydrol has > draw backs which make it less than ideal for light aircraft use. (Toxic, > not > readily available at small airports, expensive, and burns at an elevated > level) > > Charlie Kuss > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:34:27 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: RV-List: Torque settings for screws? --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Please can anyone tell me the recommended torque settings for the various screws used in the Vans (especially AN515-8R8). I'm sure the info must be somewhere but I can't find it Thanks Peter ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:51 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RV-List: That wicked riveting "nibble" idea ... --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi All- >An even easier idea is to stick a piece of scotch brite.... Shortly after getting started, I had the great god fortune of getting to know a serious airline tinsmith who showed me more simple, real world solutions to issues in the shop than you could shake a stick at. One of them applied to cinching gapped sheets of aluminum. Just put the rivet in the hole, and give it a light tap, just enough to make the rivet swell to the point of not falling out of the hole. Move the bucking bar to the sheet metal adjacent to the rivet shank and give it another light tap, and listen for the pitch change, much as when a rivet sets tight. The sheet metal will now stay cinched for the rest of the operation. Put the bucking bar back on the rivet and drive it home. Poof, you're done! No extra parts or hands needed. I hope this helps you guys as much as it helped me- Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:19:33 AM PST US From: "Glen Matejcek" Subject: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "Glen Matejcek" Hi Erich- I'm not building a -7, don't have the same engine you do engine, and didn't sleep at an HI Express last night. No of that stops me from having an opinion, tho! I found it to be very valuable, if slightly inconvenient, to hang the engine before penetrating my firewall. Also, and although those eyeball penetrations are sexy, they are also relatively expensive and I have reservations on their performance in an engine fire scenario. I used Bob Knuckolls / Aeroelectric list shower bar solution, and found it to be great. It's a homebuilder's version of what Beech seems to use. I took a SS / handicap shower grab bar and cut the ends off of it just inboard of the radius. I found a convenient spot at the far left and right edges of the firewall to bolt them on with the open end pointing more-or-less towards the center line, and then cut my holes. When final mounted, they are sealed to the firewall with intumescent caulk. this gives me a 1 1/4 hole through the fire wall to pass all sorts of stuff, including all the engine cables, battery cable, MP line, P leads, bowden cables, etc. The penetration on the other side of the plane gets the sensor wiring. The open end of the SS tube get trimmed to any convenient angle to allow for the engine cable runs. There is an appropriately sized bit of firesleeve with one end clamped on the SS and the other on the wire bundle. When I'm confident I won't be adding any more stuff to the bundles, I may well seal the SS tubes up with more intumescent caulk under the firesleeve. This solution may not be as pretty as the eyeballs, but it is very cost effective, versatile, possibly safer, and allows for future expansion without cutting any more holes in your firewall. As ever, FWIW, YMMV, etc- Glen Matejcek aerobubba@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:33 AM PST US From: "Ken Brooks" Subject: RV-List: RC RV-8 model --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Brooks" Thanks to those who responded about the availability of an RV-8 RC model. Still haven't found one, but came across a survey on rchomebuilts.com that the company uses to develop and produce new models. Anyone interested in having them put out an RV-8 should fill out their survey and let them know that there is a market for it. http://www.rchomebuilts.com/feedback.htm Ken Brooks RV-8QB N1903P ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:28 AM PST US From: Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 12/20 10:18, Glen Matejcek wrote: > I'm not building a -7, don't have the same engine you do engine, and didn't > sleep at an HI Express last night. No of that stops me from having an > opinion, tho! I found it to be very valuable, if slightly inconvenient, to > hang the engine before penetrating my firewall. Also, and although those > eyeball penetrations are sexy, they are also relatively expensive and I > have reservations on their performance in an engine fire scenario. I used > Bob Knuckolls / Aeroelectric list shower bar solution, and found it to be > great. It's a homebuilder's version of what Beech seems to use. In general I agree with what you are saying but as far as the penetration points for the Throttle, Mixture and Prop, the expensive eyeball penetration gizmos are very handy, especially if you have to remove, repair or replace the cables for any reason later down the road (think maintenance) and no need to remove a bunch of caulking at that time. And I think they will hold up in a fire quite well as they are pretty beefy. Also, most builders do not run the throttle, mixture or prop with other electrical wires/cables through the firewall. I like using the eyeballs, they work for me. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com Flying! ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:28 AM PST US From: Geoff Evans Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor for me. I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and associated plumbing. Thoughts or comments? -Geoff RV-8 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:30:44 AM PST US From: Richard Seiders Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Seiders Geoff, haven't done it that way, but the tail is awful heavy w/o engine. Lot depends on whether you're bldg a tail dragger or tri gear. If latter you'll definitely have to support tail. I would think the main gear would be more of a prob. on a tail dragger. In both cases I believe the wings would be a problem for plumbing. I'd put the eng. on first. My opinion is based on tri gear bldg. Good luck! Dick RV6A At 12:02 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > >Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the >wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do >it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited >construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor >for me. > >I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep >making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed >as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between >engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat >sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to >significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and >associated plumbing. > >Thoughts or comments? > >-Geoff >RV-8 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:21:12 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? From: Gerry Filby --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby I think the process has you mate the wings once to drill the rear spar attach hole (I'm working on a 9 so your mileage may vary), drill the wing root fairings and the center section bottom skin screw holes. At that point you pretty much have to take them off again to complete the installation of the platenuts etc. After that's complete you could put them on permanently if you wanted to. But why bother ? They consume a lot shoe leather because you have to keep on walking aaaallll the way round the plane to pick up that tool you left on the other bench. Also they're a nice big fat target for dropping a clecoe or a wrench - they're a lot less of a target when they're stood up in the wing stand. g > > --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > > Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with > installing the > wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most > builders do > it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited > construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not > really a factor > for me. > > I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I > want to keep > making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the > plane completed > as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize > the time between > engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat > sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to > significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine > installation and > associated plumbing. > > Thoughts or comments? > > -Geoff > RV-8 > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:25:28 AM PST US From: "John Danielson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: "John Danielson" Geoff, I'd wait with the wings as long as possible. They just get in way. You'll spend a lot of time walking around those wings if they are on. If everything is set up properly ahead of time it shouldn't take but half a day to install the wings, hook up wires and hook up pitot tube. John L. Danielson -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Seiders Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Seiders Geoff, haven't done it that way, but the tail is awful heavy w/o engine. Lot depends on whether you're bldg a tail dragger or tri gear. If latter you'll definitely have to support tail. I would think the main gear would be more of a prob. on a tail dragger. In both cases I believe the wings would be a problem for plumbing. I'd put the eng. on first. My opinion is based on tri gear bldg. Good luck! Dick RV6A At 12:02 PM 12/20/2005, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > >Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the >wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do >it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited >construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor >for me. > >I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep >making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed >as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between >engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat >sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to >significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and >associated plumbing. > >Thoughts or comments? > >-Geoff >RV-8 > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:37 AM PST US From: Dave Bristol Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Bristol My advice is to NOT install the wings until everything else is finished. Even though you're in a hangar, they will definitely be in the way and about the 400th time you have to walk around them to get from the engine to the cockpit, you'll wish you'd waited. Dave Bristol -6 So Cal EAA Technical Counselor Geoff Evans wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > >Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the >wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do >it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited >construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor >for me. > >I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep >making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed >as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between >engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat >sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to >significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and >associated plumbing. > >Thoughts or comments? > >-Geoff >RV-8 > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:49:15 AM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" IMNSHO (In My Not So Humble Opinion) do as much as possible without the "final" wing attachment. It's a whole lot faster & easier to stand, work, slide up & down the fuselage, reach both sides of firewall than to walk all the way around the wings, crawl into them & then work while on your knees. 90% done with 90% to go is an old antage but true. I would do everything possible without the wings attached. KABONG HRII N561FS Do Not Archive. MERRY CHRISTMAS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Evans" Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine? > --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > > Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the > wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders > do > it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited > construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a > factor > for me. > > I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep > making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane > completed > as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time > between > engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat > sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to > significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation > and > associated plumbing. > > Thoughts or comments? > > -Geoff > RV-8 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:07:54 PM PST US From: Jim Oke Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Oke I strongly suspect that a DHC-8 with a blown prop seal would be spraying turbine engine oil and not skydrol hydraulic fluid about the aircraft. (The prop blade pitch system is driven by engine oil pressure and not the aircraft hydraulic system). For Dash-8 operators, the usual, although not-government approved, method of differentiating between engine oil leaks and hydraulic leaks is to do a quick taste test; if your tongue burns and tingles that would be Skydrol and not turbine oil. I fly earlier model D-8-100s at work and see enough skydrol leaks to want to stay away from the stuff. It is face shield and rubber glove time when the maintenance guys are working on the hydraulics. Any persistent skydrol leak is usually cause for my company's high quality polyurethane paint to bubble up and disintegrate. Other than the health and safety issues, skydrol comes in the usual tins and seems to need no other handling procedures than 5056 fluids. The reason that the DHC-8 uses skydrol is indeed a slight improvement in flammability and flash point properties over other fluids. Interestingly, the DHC-8s I fly still use Mil-5056 fluid in the landing gear shock struts although the brakes themselves use Skydrol. Jim Oke RV-6A C-GKGZ (weekends) DHC-8-102 (weekdays) Do not archive DEAN PSIROPOULOS wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > >Charlie are you sure about the Skydrol? We were on a flight test in a >DHC8-400 a while back which blew a propeller governor seal and sprayed the >fuse with fluid. We had a mechanic on board and he was talking about >skydrol and how it was (if I recall correctly) surfactant based. He talked >about how you could tell if it was skydrol by putting a little bit on your >tongue and that the manufacturer bragged about how NON TOXIC it is. I >hadn't heard anyone mention skydrol until you did but have been wondering if >maybe IT is the ideal brake fluid for use in our aircraft (my understanding >was that it was NON toxic and NON flammable which, to me, sounds ideal, even >with the extra cost, lets just hope it's hygroscopic also). Maybe an A&P >with experience on large commercial aircraft can clear up my confusion? > > >Dean Psiropoulos >RV-6A N197DM >No airframe/engine parts left in the FWF kit (still some wiring though) > > >-----Original Message----- >Time: 11:54:54 AM PST US >From: Charlie Kuss >Subject: Re: RV-List: DOT-5 Brake Fluid > >..... Interestingly, it is good for use with Skydrol. However Skydrol has >draw backs which make it less than ideal for light aircraft use. (Toxic, not >readily available at small airports, expensive, and burns at an elevated >level) > >Charlie Kuss > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:52 PM PST US From: scott bilinski Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: scott bilinski Just dont run the engine with out the wings. There was one case were the fuse was tweaked contact Van's for details.........I think that is where I heard it from. Geoff Evans wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor for me. I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and associated plumbing. Thoughts or comments? -Geoff RV-8 Scott Bilinski RV-8a cell 858-395-5094 ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:22 PM PST US From: Keith Norton Subject: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol --> RV-List message posted by: Keith Norton >Charlie are you sure about the Skydrol? >...my understanding was that it was NON toxic and NON flammable... >Maybe an A&P with experience on large commercial aircraft can clear up my confusion? Skydrol is highly toxic and it is flammable. Also, it is not compatible with hydraulic seals and hoses designed for 5605 fluid. See http://www.skydrol.com/pages/glove.asp and http://www.skydrol.com/pages/faqs.asp for all the specifics. Keith Norton - A&P ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:48 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: RV-List: Need input --> RV-List message posted by: Dan John, I liked learning at Harvey Field in Snohomish, just a few miles east of Everett, Family owned and operated FBO, Small runway 2,750 x 36 good people and a good fleet of planes http://www.snohomishflying.com/ In Everett, Pain Field there is Northway Aviation or Regal Air, Both good place's good luck Dan, -8 Tail under constuction --- JOHN STARN wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" > > > My son (wife & two grandsons) is now living in > Everett, Washington. I'm > looking for a source in that area for him to > continue with flight training. > He has not flown except with me or Tom in the Rocket > in 8-10 years. I'm > going up there for Christmas & think flight > training/ground school etc would > make a great Christmas gift. Need input from > someone in that area. > KABONG HRII N561FS > MERRY > CHRISTMAS. > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:09 PM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans > > > Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with > installing the wings before doing anything with the engine? > It seems like most builders do it the other way around, but > perhaps that's because they have limited construction space. > I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor for me. Geoff, I see many replies to your above message, but I'm not sure we understand the question. When you say "install the wings", do you mean temporarily to fit up things like flaps, root fairings, belly skin overlap area, fuel and vent lines, upper gear leg intersection (if a trike, I see yours is a TD), aileron rigging, etc.? Or, do you mean final installation? If you want to delay engine purchase (a good thing), there is a fair amount of work related to fitting the wings which could be done now if you haven't already done so. Once all this is completed, it is easy to remove and store the wings so as to not have to walk around them. Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 702 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:34:05 PM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: RV-List: Correction: Compatiblity of MIL H 83282 with MIL_H-5606 --> RV-List message posted by: "Konrad L. Werner" Stormy, To the best of my knowledge: The only way it would void your car insurance is if the underwriters can prove in court that the transmission was the cause of the accident. But then, you are protected by the MIL-itary, so maybe you get away with it? Other than that do not archive . ----- Original Message ----- From: sportav8r@aol.com To: rv-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 19, 2005 7:16 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Correction: Compatiblity of MIL H 83282 with MIL_H-5606 --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com A gallon of MIL-H-83232 is way more than I'd need; can I use the extra in my car's transmission? Would my car insurance be void if they found out? -Stormy well, the way this thread is going, someone was bound to ask it sooner or later ;-) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:47 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "DonVS" I think the eyeballs are the way to go as long as they are steel. The single hole version ACS sells is aluminum and will melt very fast. Another way is the penetrations that are available from www.EPM-av.com I sed these for wire penetrations and they work great, They are stainless and the only draw back is the price. Don -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Walter Tondu Subject: Re: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu On 12/20 10:18, Glen Matejcek wrote: > I'm not building a -7, don't have the same engine you do engine, and didn't > sleep at an HI Express last night. No of that stops me from having an > opinion, tho! I found it to be very valuable, if slightly inconvenient, to > hang the engine before penetrating my firewall. Also, and although those > eyeball penetrations are sexy, they are also relatively expensive and I > have reservations on their performance in an engine fire scenario. I used > Bob Knuckolls / Aeroelectric list shower bar solution, and found it to be > great. It's a homebuilder's version of what Beech seems to use. In general I agree with what you are saying but as far as the penetration points for the Throttle, Mixture and Prop, the expensive eyeball penetration gizmos are very handy, especially if you have to remove, repair or replace the cables for any reason later down the road (think maintenance) and no need to remove a bunch of caulking at that time. And I think they will hold up in a fire quite well as they are pretty beefy. Also, most builders do not run the throttle, mixture or prop with other electrical wires/cables through the firewall. I like using the eyeballs, they work for me. -- Walter Tondu http://www.rv7-a.com Flying! ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:40:01 PM PST US From: "charles heathco" Subject: RV-List: Vortex generators --> RV-List message posted by: "charles heathco" I looked thru archives and nothing about any Rv's with the Lexan V G's from land shorter. Anybody have them, or know anyone who does? Charlie Heathco ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:05 PM PST US From: "charles heathco" Subject: RV-List: Rv's in Fayettville/Drake --> RV-List message posted by: "charles heathco" anybody know what RV's might be in Fyetv Ark ? I seem to remember at least one is there. Charlie heathco ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:31 PM PST US From: Geoff Evans Subject: RV-List: RE: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans Alex Peterson wrote: >>> When you say "install the wings", do you mean temporarily to fit up things like flaps, root fairings, belly skin overlap area, fuel and vent lines, upper gear leg intersection (if a trike, I see yours is a TD), aileron rigging, etc.? Or, do you mean final installation? <<< I meant final installation. Everything else is done. From the sound of these responses, I guess it's time for me to pony up the $$$ and order the engine! Thanks. -Geoff RV-8 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:46 PM PST US From: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Subject: Re: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "Jerry Grimmonpre" Don ... can you expand on the wire penetrations that work great ... I'm not able to find them at the link. Thanks, Jerry Grimmonpre' do not archive > --> RV-List message posted by: "DonVS" > > I think the eyeballs are the way to go as long as they are steel. The > single hole version ACS sells is aluminum and will melt very fast. > Another > way is the penetrations that are available from www.EPM-av.com I sed these > for wire penetrations and they work great, They are stainless and the > only > draw back is the price. Don ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:48:03 PM PST US From: "The Hall's" Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol --> RV-List message posted by: "The Hall's" Charlie, I agree with Keith. I spent 38 years with UAL in aircraft maintenance. You do not want anything to do with Skydrol. It is one of the nastiest fluids in the aviation industry. Adding to what Keith said, it will remove paint, create coking if in contact with exhaust stacks, is very irritating to the skin and is very painful if you get it in your eyes. Jim Hall A&P RV-6A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Norton" Subject: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol > --> RV-List message posted by: Keith Norton > >>Charlie are you sure about the Skydrol? >>...my understanding was that it was NON toxic and NON flammable... >>Maybe an A&P with experience on large commercial aircraft can clear up my >>confusion? > > Skydrol is highly toxic and it is flammable. Also, it is not compatible > with hydraulic seals and hoses designed for 5605 fluid. > > See http://www.skydrol.com/pages/glove.asp and > http://www.skydrol.com/pages/faqs.asp for all the specifics. > > Keith Norton - A&P > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:57:27 PM PST US From: ronlee@pcisys.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Vortex generators --> RV-List message posted by: ronlee@pcisys.net Is this one source? http://www.microaero.com/CS_PDF/KitPlanes/RV_CS.pdf Ron Lee --------------------------------------------- This message was sent using Endymion MailMan. http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/ ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:30:46 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > In general I agree with what you are saying but as far as the penetration > points for the Throttle, Mixture and Prop, the expensive eyeball > penetration gizmos are very handy, especially if you have to remove, > repair or > replace the cables for any reason later down the road (think maintenance) > and no need to remove a bunch of caulking at that time. And I think they > will hold up in a fire quite well as they are pretty beefy. Also, most > builders do not run the throttle, mixture or prop with other electrical > wires/cables through the firewall. I like using the eyeballs, they work > for me. Ditto. And I wonder how all those *aluminum* rivets are gonna hold up in the event of a fire. I hear people yappin' about heat flapper valves and bulkhead fittings and eyeballs and all that, and I don't disagree. But nobody mentions how the firewall will basically be trying to "fall off" if the aluminum rivets melt in a fire. I don't know what I'm talking about, not speaking from experience, just kind of philosophizing here. But I wonder about all dem aluminum rivets. If a fat aluminum eyeball melts, surely the rivets will as well, right? do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (736 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:43:56 PM PST US From: Vanremog@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Need input --> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com In a message dated 12/20/2005 2:42:16 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, dan@rdan.com writes: I liked learning at Harvey Field in Snohomish, just a few miles east of Everett, Family owned and operated FBO, Small runway 2,750 x 36 good people and a good fleet of planes http://www.snohomishflying.com/ ========================= And, IIRC a good restaurant on the field. Harvey is a very airplane friendly airport. GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 771hrs, Silicon Valley, CA) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:39 PM PST US From: "DonVS" Subject: RE: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "DonVS" Very good point Dan!! About the only thing holding the firewall on in that cast would be the steel bolts (the four in the corners). Not a pleasant thought. Maybe we should just keep everything tight and help prevent fires in the first place. Just my 2 cents. Don VS -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Subject: Re: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > In general I agree with what you are saying but as far as the penetration > points for the Throttle, Mixture and Prop, the expensive eyeball > penetration gizmos are very handy, especially if you have to remove, > repair or > replace the cables for any reason later down the road (think maintenance) > and no need to remove a bunch of caulking at that time. And I think they > will hold up in a fire quite well as they are pretty beefy. Also, most > builders do not run the throttle, mixture or prop with other electrical > wires/cables through the firewall. I like using the eyeballs, they work > for me. Ditto. And I wonder how all those *aluminum* rivets are gonna hold up in the event of a fire. I hear people yappin' about heat flapper valves and bulkhead fittings and eyeballs and all that, and I don't disagree. But nobody mentions how the firewall will basically be trying to "fall off" if the aluminum rivets melt in a fire. I don't know what I'm talking about, not speaking from experience, just kind of philosophizing here. But I wonder about all dem aluminum rivets. If a fat aluminum eyeball melts, surely the rivets will as well, right? do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D (736 hours) http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:22 PM PST US From: Charlie Kuss Subject: Re: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol --> RV-List message posted by: Charlie Kuss Mr, Hall, I think you are confusing who said what, in regards to Skydrol. My original comment regarding Skydrol related to the fact the EPDM is a suitable sealing material for it's use. I never endorsed it's use for our RVs. See original comment below. The subject line of my post was DOT-5 Brake Fluid. EPDM is listed to compare Viton's capabilities with one of the most common materials used in automobiles. EPDM is NOT compatible with mineral based hydraulic fluids, such as 5606 or ATF. Interestingly, it is good for use with Skydrol. However Skydrol has draw backs which make it less than ideal for light aircraft use. (Toxic, not readily available at small airports, expensive, and burns at an elevated level) Dean P replied to my comments, regarding Skydrol being toxic. I believe that Dean was questioning me on a point of semantics. I used the word TOXIC. Dean correctly challenged my use of the word toxic, as it regards to Skydrol. From the data I've read, it would be more accurate to call it a tissue irritant. From your description, it is a rather nasty one. At that point, everyone else jumped in. Please correct me if you can show me where in any recent email "I" suggested anyone use Skydrol in light aircraft. I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm simply trying to keep who said what, straight. I do appreciate hearing about your experiences with this fluid. Charlie Kuss >--> RV-List message posted by: "The Hall's" > >Charlie, I agree with Keith. I spent 38 years with UAL in aircraft >maintenance. You do not want anything to do with Skydrol. It is one of the >nastiest fluids in the aviation industry. Adding to what Keith said, it will >remove paint, create coking if in contact with exhaust stacks, is very >irritating to the skin and is very painful if you get it in your eyes. >Jim Hall A&P RV-6A >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Norton" >To: >Subject: RV-List: RE: Brake fluid-Skydrol > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: Keith Norton > > > >>Charlie are you sure about the Skydrol? > >>...my understanding was that it was NON toxic and NON flammable... > >>Maybe an A&P with experience on large commercial aircraft can clear up my > >>confusion? > > > > Skydrol is highly toxic and it is flammable. Also, it is not compatible > > with hydraulic seals and hoses designed for 5605 fluid. > > > > See http://www.skydrol.com/pages/glove.asp and > > http://www.skydrol.com/pages/faqs.asp for all the specifics. > > > > Keith Norton - A&P > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:44 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re: RV's in Fayetteville/Drake --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com Charles; The EAA Chapter in Northwest Arkansas is: _http://www.eaa732.org/eaa_732_home.asp_ (http://www.eaa732.org/eaa_732_home.asp) You should be able to get info there. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:54:29 PM PST US From: Oldsfolks@aol.com Subject: RV-List: >Re: Vortex Generators --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com The Micro systems Vortex generators is what I have on our RV-4. I got them from Larry Vetterman 605-745-5932 , the exhaust system man. Mine are aluminun,curved to wing contour and only 1/2 " tall. I love them for the lower stall speed and the stable handling at minimun speed. I lost nothing at top speed. I painted them to match my paint. Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor Charleston,Arkansas Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:35 PM PST US From: "Paul Rice" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" Hi Geoff, Follow the directions in order, they haven't lead me down the wrong path yet. At least put them on and fit them as well as run the nec. wiring to them with connectors. Then take them off and move them out of the way. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Evans Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor for me. I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and associated plumbing. Thoughts or comments? -Geoff RV-8 ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 09:44:36 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Dan I personally like "stick this lollypop up you butt, and you can pay your rent with it" good humor D~ Paul Rice wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" Hi Geoff, Follow the directions in order, they haven't lead me down the wrong path yet. At least put them on and fit them as well as run the nec. wiring to them with connectors. Then take them off and move them out of the way. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoff Evans Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine? --> RV-List message posted by: Geoff Evans Does anyone have any experience, positive or negative, with installing the wings before doing anything with the engine? It seems like most builders do it the other way around, but perhaps that's because they have limited construction space. I'm building in a hangar, so that's not really a factor for me. I haven't ordered my engine yet (for monetary reasons), and I want to keep making forward progress. I also want to have as much of the plane completed as possible before starting on the engine, so as to minimize the time between engine delivery and actual flying (my building schedule is somewhat sporadic). However, I don't want to put the wings on if it's going to significantly hinder access or be an inconvenience to engine installation and associated plumbing. Thoughts or comments? -Geoff RV-8 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:59:23 PM PST US From: "Mark Burns" Subject: RE: RV-List: firewall penetration points --> RV-List message posted by: "Mark Burns" >Ditto. And I wonder how all those *aluminum* rivets are gonna hold up in >the event of a fire. I hear people yappin' about heat flapper valves and >bulkhead fittings and eyeballs and all that, and I don't disagree. But >nobody mentions how the firewall will basically be trying to "fall off" if >the aluminum rivets melt in a fire. I don't know what I'm talking about, >not speaking from experience, just kind of philosophizing here. But I >wonder about all dem aluminum rivets. If a fat aluminum eyeball melts, >surely the rivets will as well, right? Dan, I was wondering the same thing just last night. I'm just starting on the firewall. Do certified aircraft use stainless rivets on the firewall? I was an A&P years ago but can't remember. I don't think I ever repaired any firewall rivets. I had decided not to worry about it since it seemed everyone was using aluminum rivets. And Don has the right idea...do everything right, to avoid a fire. Has anyone installed a fire extinguishing system on the engine in an RV? Seems like it would be relatively simple. Mount a small halon extinguisher somewhere where it could be reached. Then run a hose out to the top front of the engine. Some Cessna twins have a bottle in the wing root that is electrically activated. And a hose (stainless braided) runs to the front of the engine. This is from memory from years ago... Just a thought. Mark Burns RV-7A Fuselage ! do not archive