Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:05 AM - Re: Wings before engine (Ralph E. Capen)
2. 05:34 AM - Re: orange peel (chaztuna@adelphia.net)
3. 05:41 AM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Brad Gould)
4. 05:47 AM - Re: orange peel (linn walters)
5. 06:01 AM - Re: Vortex Generators >Vortex Generators (Brad Gould)
6. 07:16 AM - Re: Wings before engine (Richard Seiders)
7. 07:26 AM - Re: Battery Revival? (Ron Lee)
8. 07:40 AM - Re: orange peel (Don/Marcia Piermattei)
9. 07:41 AM - Re: orange peel (RAS)
10. 07:55 AM - Re: Battery Revival? (Ron Lee)
11. 08:27 AM - Re: Vortex Generators ()
12. 09:10 AM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (sportav8r@aol.com)
13. 09:20 AM - Re: orange peel (Dave Nellis)
14. 09:25 AM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (sportav8r@aol.com)
15. 09:30 AM - Re: >Re:Vortex Generators (Chuck)
16. 09:39 AM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Chuck)
17. 09:40 AM - Re: >Re:Vortex Generators (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky))
18. 11:17 AM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Chuck Jensen)
19. 11:42 AM - Re: [SoCAL-RVlist] VNY FSDO (Ed Holyoke)
20. 11:58 AM - Running a tank dry intentionally (Ron Lee)
21. 12:12 PM - Re: >Re:Vortex Generators (Mickey Coggins)
22. 12:44 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Howard Walrath)
23. 01:01 PM - Re: Vortex Generators (Kevin Horton)
24. 01:09 PM - Re: Running a tank dry intentionally (Kevin Horton)
25. 01:31 PM - Re: Running a tank dry intentionally (Ron Lee)
26. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Rick McCraw)
27. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Vortex Generators (Chuck Jensen)
28. 04:02 PM - LightSPEED headsets (sportav8r@aol.com)
29. 05:22 PM - Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A (Aubrey)
30. 05:41 PM - Re: Battery Revival? (LarryRobertHelming)
31. 05:50 PM - T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style (Jim Pellien)
32. 06:29 PM - Re: LightSPEED headsets (Alan & Linda Daniels)
33. 06:58 PM - Re: Running a tank dry intentionally (Jeff Dowling)
34. 09:30 PM - Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A (UFOBUCK@aol.com)
35. 09:45 PM - Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A (Olen Goodwin)
36. 10:50 PM - Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Wings before engine |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
I made wood false spar stubs and inserted them where the spars would go. I drilled
the wood to match the bolt pattern - Then I was able to attach the main gear.
I can take pictures and already have some contact me off list.
Ralph Capen
RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90%
-----Original Message-----
>From: DEAN PSIROPOULOS <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>Sent: Dec 21, 2005 11:35 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
>
>I agree with Gerry, don't do it Geoff. I put my wings on my RV-6A a year
>ago and it has indeed been a pain in the feet walking from the front of the
>hangar (where I'm working on FWF), around the wing tips to the back of the
>hangar where workbench and the tools are :-( I installed the wings before
>installing the engine because I wanted to install the main landing gear and
>the only way to do that permanently on an RV-6 tri-gear is with the wings on
>(the main gear mounts bolt directly to the main spar in the RV-6 not the
>carry through structure like the -7/8/9, simple but a hassle). I tried to
>do as much airframe stuff as I could with the wings off and that included
>the gear leg fairings and wheel pants. It's easy to lift the fuselage by
>hand (when wings and engine are not installed) and put it on saw horses in
>the level position (with the wheels off the ground) so you can install the
>fairings and pants properly. This is not exactly a trivial job, you'll need
>to do it sooner or later anyway, and I would be a bit nervous about jacking
>the airplane and letting it sit that way for long periods with the weight of
>engine and other items hanging on. And, if you can, build your panel and
>wire as much of the fuse and wings as possible right now, that makes it
>easier to get in and out of certain places here too. Just my experience,
>good luck and happy building.
>
>Dean Psiropoulos
>RV-6A N197DM
>Wiring!
>
>
>---------Original message-----------------
>Time: 10:21:12 AM PST US
>Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine?
>From: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
>
>After that's complete you could put them on permanently if you
>wanted to. But why bother ? They consume a lot shoe leather
>because you have to keep on walking aaaallll the way round the
>plane to pick up that tool you left on the other bench...
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV-List message posted by: chaztuna@adelphia.net
Paul,
Orange peel can be caused by several things. I'm using PPG's Delta (one step up
their product line from the very popular Concept) paints. I will get orange
peel if I do not properly reduce the paint. Urethane and Polyurethane paints are
rather viscous.
Cool shop temperatures will also prevent the paint from flowing out normally.
Orange peel is simply the paint not flowing out properly. It tends to pool, leaving
high and low areas you perceive as orange peel.
The last issue is if I try to keep spraying the paint after it has started to
"set up" in the gun. I've had this happen when I mixed to much paint in one batch.
Due to workload or less than idea weather, I had not used all of the paint
batch before the 2 hour "pot life" limit for Delta.
Exceeding the "pot life" is readily apparent. As you exceed the recommended spray
time, the paint becomes thicker. This makes it more difficult for the paint
to exit the gun. It also prevents the paint from flowing out properly.
My experience (and that of several other builders) with Delta is that if you simply
leave it alone, the paint will slowly "level out" over a period of 4-6 months
and the orange peel will disappear all by itself. This only applies if the
original cause of the orange peel was NOT that you exceeded the pot life time.
I've had a number of items of my interior which showed noticable orange peel soon
after painting. Over time, I could actually watch the paint level out. A part
that looked badly orange peeled would look better the next day, better yet
after a week, than a month. After 4-6 months the orange peel was completely gone.
I don't know what paint you are using. My advise is to not get to freaked out
about the orange peel unless it's still there 6 months from now. You can always
rub or buff it out later.
Contact me off list with a contact phone number if you'd like to discuss this
via phone.
Charlie Kuss
---- Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
>
> Hello Listers,
>
> I am just starting to paint some of my interior parts with a HVLP spray gun
> and on sometimes get more orange peel than others. Is this due to an air
> issue or paint issue, ie to much or to little. Thanks for any help.
>
> Paul Rice
> RV8QB
> Almost ready to install wings
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Brad Gould <brad20j@yahoo.com>
I used to have a Beech Baron with VGs. They kept falling off when it snowed on
the wings, so I removed them because I was worried about asymmetrical stall characteristics
when one wing lost an outboard group of adjacent VGs.
When I removed them, I noticed a higher stall speed (don't know how much), and
a higher cruise speed by about 3 or more kts. I also noticed slightly less
responsiveness in the ailerons at slow speed, but I seldom flew the Baron at the
very low end of the speed spectrum. I don't know about RVs, but the Baron
has basically the same airfoil, so I would expect it to behave similarly.
There's a very interesting write-up on experimental data on the effect of VGs on a Bonanza, also with a similar airfoil to the RVs. It used to be on http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/technical_flying.html, but I see it has been removed. The site says you can email the author for info. There were basically two articles: one about effects at each end of the speed spectrum, if I recall. There was also an interesting table showing increased power required for different airspeeds, even at the low speed end. The increased power required at Vy speeds would indicate a decreased climb rate, but I'm not sure I noticed this in the Baron. Hopefully the author of the articles will re-post them.
My personal conclusion was that the VGs would be good if you're using very short
fields. Otherwise, I'd take the extra few knots in cruise.
An additional thought was that with VGs installed, at least maneuvering speed
and structural cruising speed should be decreased due to the lowered stall speed,
but I could not find any published numbers to use. I presume one could reduce
these proportionally to the new stall speed for operational purposes.
Brad
Waiting for my plane to sell to start on an RV-8
Time: 12:48:29 PM PST US Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
From: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Andy,
It's a very interesting observation that cruise speed seemed to suffer
from application of the VGs. This is contrary to virtually every
observation, at least with canards. I would doubt that the RV is
significantly different as far as the effect of the VGs. Very
interesting. Are there other similar roconfirming observations out
there?
Chuck
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV-List message posted by: linn walters <lwalters2@cfl.rr.com>
I'm no paint expert, but in my mind:
Orange peel can be caused by many things.
The surface you're painting muxt be CLEAN. Do it twice or three times.
Air pressure too low. The paint isn't atomizing fine enough. Experiment.
Contamination of the air. Oil and water will wreak havoc on a paint
job. I use a 'toilet paper filter'.
Paint is too thick. Add some solvent .... be sure it's compatible with
your paint.
Temperature is important too. The warmer the better. Helps the paint
flow and prevents 'hazing'.
Linn
Paul Rice wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
>
>Hello Listers,
>
>I am just starting to paint some of my interior parts with a HVLP spray gun
>and on sometimes get more orange peel than others. Is this due to an air
>issue or paint issue, ie to much or to little. Thanks for any help.
>
>Paul Rice
>RV8QB
>Almost ready to install wings
>
>
>
>
--
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators >Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Brad Gould <brad20j@yahoo.com>
I successfully Googled the articles on Bonanza VGs that I mentioned in my last
post. Fyi, while the RV airfoil is close to a 23013, the Bonanza's varies
between a 23016.5 at the root and a 23012 at the tip, so one would expect performance
effects to be very similar in an RV:
http://web.usna.navy.mil/~dfr/flying/Vgs_stall_wide.pdf
https://taupe.site-secure.net/nar-associates/technical-flying/vortex/Vgs_cruise_wide.pdf
Brad
Waiting for my plane to sell so I can start on an RV-8.
Message 6
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Wings before engine |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Seiders <seiders@bellsouth.net>
We used a piece of square alum tubing drilled to match several spar bolt
holes and the gear mounts. Worked so well it was used on all 6A's built in
our group.
At 08:02 AM 12/22/2005, you wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
>
>I made wood false spar stubs and inserted them where the spars would
>go. I drilled the wood to match the bolt pattern - Then I was able to
>attach the main gear.
>
>I can take pictures and already have some contact me off list.
>
>Ralph Capen
>RV6AQB N822AR N06 90% 90%
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: DEAN PSIROPOULOS <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
> >Sent: Dec 21, 2005 11:35 PM
> >To: rv-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: RV-List: Wings before engine
> >
> >--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS"
> <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
> >
> >I agree with Gerry, don't do it Geoff. I put my wings on my RV-6A a year
> >ago and it has indeed been a pain in the feet walking from the front of the
> >hangar (where I'm working on FWF), around the wing tips to the back of the
> >hangar where workbench and the tools are :-( I installed the wings before
> >installing the engine because I wanted to install the main landing gear and
> >the only way to do that permanently on an RV-6 tri-gear is with the wings on
> >(the main gear mounts bolt directly to the main spar in the RV-6 not the
> >carry through structure like the -7/8/9, simple but a hassle). I tried to
> >do as much airframe stuff as I could with the wings off and that included
> >the gear leg fairings and wheel pants. It's easy to lift the fuselage by
> >hand (when wings and engine are not installed) and put it on saw horses in
> >the level position (with the wheels off the ground) so you can install the
> >fairings and pants properly. This is not exactly a trivial job, you'll need
> >to do it sooner or later anyway, and I would be a bit nervous about jacking
> >the airplane and letting it sit that way for long periods with the weight of
> >engine and other items hanging on. And, if you can, build your panel and
> >wire as much of the fuse and wings as possible right now, that makes it
> >easier to get in and out of certain places here too. Just my experience,
> >good luck and happy building.
> >
> >Dean Psiropoulos
> >RV-6A N197DM
> >Wiring!
> >
> >
> >---------Original message-----------------
> >Time: 10:21:12 AM PST US
> >Subject: Re: RV-List: Wings before engine?
> >From: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
> >
> >After that's complete you could put them on permanently if you
> >wanted to. But why bother ? They consume a lot shoe leather
> >because you have to keep on walking aaaallll the way round the
> >plane to pick up that tool you left on the other bench...
> >
> >
>
>
Message 7
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery Revival? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>I just returned from the airport where I found that I had left the master
>"ON" and the RB25 battery was dead. Is it possible to resuscitate this
>completely dead battery or do I need to order a new one.
I revived mine and have been using it for many months but I plan on
replacing it soon since it has been in the plane a while.
I would check the manufacturer website for their advice on the reliability
of your battery now. Also consider the cost if it fails on a cross-country.
Ron Lee
Message 8
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV-List message posted by: "Don/Marcia Piermattei" <dlpier@lamar.colostate.edu>
"Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
Are you using a turbine or compressed air? The tubine heats the air and the
paint does not run out unless the thinner is increased 25-50% over the usual
formula
Don Piermattei
RV-9A 192DP
Donald L. Piermattei DVM, PhD
5000 E County Rd 92
Carr, CO 80612
970/568-9047
Fax 970/568-7279
Message 9
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV-List message posted by: "RAS" <deruiteraircraftservices@btinternet.com>
Hi, orange peel is caused by too much material and not enough pressure to
correctly atomize the paint. Either screw up the pressure, or in your case
of HVLP screw back on the material, ie, screw the needle on the rear of the
gun a bit further in.
Marcel
----- Original Message -----
From: <chaztuna@adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: orange peel
> --> RV-List message posted by: chaztuna@adelphia.net
>
> Paul,
> Orange peel can be caused by several things. I'm using PPG's Delta (one
> step up their product line from the very popular Concept) paints. I will
> get orange peel if I do not properly reduce the paint. Urethane and
> Polyurethane paints are rather viscous.
> Cool shop temperatures will also prevent the paint from flowing out
> normally. Orange peel is simply the paint not flowing out properly. It
> tends to pool, leaving high and low areas you perceive as orange peel.
> The last issue is if I try to keep spraying the paint after it has started
> to "set up" in the gun. I've had this happen when I mixed to much paint
> in one batch. Due to workload or less than idea weather, I had not used
> all of the paint batch before the 2 hour "pot life" limit for Delta.
> Exceeding the "pot life" is readily apparent. As you exceed the
> recommended spray time, the paint becomes thicker. This makes it more
> difficult for the paint to exit the gun. It also prevents the paint from
> flowing out properly.
> My experience (and that of several other builders) with Delta is that if
> you simply leave it alone, the paint will slowly "level out" over a period
> of 4-6 months and the orange peel will disappear all by itself. This only
> applies if the original cause of the orange peel was NOT that you exceeded
> the pot life time.
> I've had a number of items of my interior which showed noticable orange
> peel soon after painting. Over time, I could actually watch the paint
> level out. A part that looked badly orange peeled would look better the
> next day, better yet after a week, than a month. After 4-6 months the
> orange peel was completely gone.
> I don't know what paint you are using. My advise is to not get to freaked
> out about the orange peel unless it's still there 6 months from now. You
> can always rub or buff it out later.
> Contact me off list with a contact phone number if you'd like to discuss
> this via phone.
> Charlie Kuss
>
>
> ---- Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com> wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
>>
>> Hello Listers,
>>
>> I am just starting to paint some of my interior parts with a HVLP spray
>> gun
>> and on sometimes get more orange peel than others. Is this due to an air
>> issue or paint issue, ie to much or to little. Thanks for any help.
>>
>> Paul Rice
>> RV8QB
>> Almost ready to install wings
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery Revival? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
I should have noted that my battery is an Odyssey PC680 which
may or may not react differently than yours.
Ron Lee
>I revived mine and have been using it for many months but I plan on
>replacing it soon since it has been in the plane a while.
>
>I would check the manufacturer website for their advice on the reliability
>of your battery now. Also consider the cost if it fails on a cross-country.
>
>Ron Lee
>
>
Message 11
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Yes it is hard to get accurate data. People who sell them will tell you
all kind of things but here is where the NO FREE LUNCH rule comes
in.
You can expect about 3kts lower stall and about 3 kts lower, less
top speed:
http://www.iwantarocket.com/rv6/index.html
select hyper text: vortex generators and you can see the results here
or go direct here: http://ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
Besides the Terry Jantzi above, who sells VG's, here are folks who
will sell you VG's:
http://www.pnwaero.com/
http://www.microaero.com/
http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
Again you gain on the low you loose on the top. It is the conservation
of the NO FREE LUNCH RULE. Expect to loose top end about the
same as you gain on the bottom.
Most VG manufactures are fairly honest or just don't really know, but
some will also tell you that you will loose no top speed? I doubt that
seriously. Some will tell you their VG's are better than VG's
from XYZ's. They may be.
My conclusion is leave them off. However I know if you want to DOG
FIGHT you will have an advantage with VG's. If you do DOG FIGHT
with your RV buddies you know it gets into a turning battle and the first
to run out of speed. The Lower stall will allow a slight advantage
(smaller or slower turn) and you will usually win. DO it enough no one
will want to dog-fight you.
I personally don't want to loose 3 kts on the top end, and if I can't get
into a field with a 3 kt higher stall I don't need to be there.
The RV already stalls slow enough and if you can get into a short
fields that push your takeoff capability already. Good Luck. If you
decide to go for it, try to do some before and after flight test and post
the results.
George (Just say no to VG's)
From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Hi Bob,
Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to find
data in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
Message 12
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
George,
The No F
-----Original Message-----
From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Yes it is hard to get accurate data. People who sell them will tell you
all kind of things but here is where the NO FREE LUNCH rule comes
in.
You can expect about 3kts lower stall and about 3 kts lower, less
top speed:
http://www.iwantarocket.com/rv6/index.html
select hyper text: vortex generators and you can see the results here
or go direct here: http://ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
Besides the Terry Jantzi above, who sells VG's, here are folks who
will sell you VG's:
http://www.pnwaero.com/
http://www.microaero.com/
http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
Again you gain on the low you loose on the top. It is the conservation
of the NO FREE LUNCH RULE. Expect to loose top end about the
same as you gain on the bottom.
Most VG manufactures are fairly honest or just don't really know, but
some will also tell you that you will loose no top speed? I doubt that
seriously. Some will tell you their VG's are better than VG's
from XYZ's. They may be.
My conclusion is leave them off. However I know if you want to DOG
FIGHT you will have an advantage with VG's. If you do DOG FIGHT
with your RV buddies you know it gets into a turning battle and the first
to run out of speed. The Lower stall will allow a slight advantage
(smaller or slower turn) and you will usually win. DO it enough no one
will want to dog-fight you.
I personally don't want to loose 3 kts on the top end, and if I can't get
into a field with a 3 kt higher stall I don't need to be there.
The RV already stalls slow enough and if you can get into a short
fields that push your takeoff capability already. Good Luck. If you
decide to go for it, try to do some before and after flight test and post
the results.
George (Just say no to VG's)
From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Hi Bob,
Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to find
data in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
Message 13
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
After many years of painting radio control models, I
know that too thick paint or high humidity will cause
orange peel. Check for both.
dave
--- Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice"
> <rice737@msn.com>
>
> Hello Listers,
>
> I am just starting to paint some of my interior
> parts with a HVLP spray gun
> and on sometimes get more orange peel than others.
> Is this due to an air
> issue or paint issue, ie to much or to little.
> Thanks for any help.
>
> Paul Rice
> RV8QB
> Almost ready to install wings
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
let's try that again; darned laptop will SEND an email right in the middle if
my fingers even touch the touchpad...
George,
the No Free Lunch rule might be evident here, but it's not axiomatic. There are
airframes like RV's with a 4:1 speed ratio, and some with better, others with
worse. By tweaking aspect ratios, wing loading, airfoil selection, tail volume,
horsepower, etc, performance can be altered. The only way to know if VG's
would lop off as much from the top end speed as they add to the bottom is to
put them on and go fly. It's not a result we can know intuitively beforehand.
If a N.F.L. Rule applied already, we'd never have seen an airframe more efficient
than the Wright Flyer. I'm fully expecting some clever person to develop a
VG-like mod that lowers the stall without penalizing cruise by an equal amount.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Yes it is hard to get accurate data. People who sell them will tell you
all kind of things but here is where the NO FREE LUNCH rule comes
in.
You can expect about 3kts lower stall and about 3 kts lower, less
top speed:
http://www.iwantarocket.com/rv6/index.html
select hyper text: vortex generators and you can see the results here
or go direct here: http://ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
Besides the Terry Jantzi above, who sells VG's, here are folks who
will sell you VG's:
http://www.pnwaero.com/
http://www.microaero.com/
http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
Again you gain on the low you loose on the top. It is the conservation
of the NO FREE LUNCH RULE. Expect to loose top end about the
same as you gain on the bottom.
Most VG manufactures are fairly honest or just don't really know, but
some will also tell you that you will loose no top speed? I doubt that
seriously. Some will tell you their VG's are better than VG's
from XYZ's. They may be.
My conclusion is leave them off. However I know if you want to DOG
FIGHT you will have an advantage with VG's. If you do DOG FIGHT
with your RV buddies you know it gets into a turning battle and the first
to run out of speed. The Lower stall will allow a slight advantage
(smaller or slower turn) and you will usually win. DO it enough no one
will want to dog-fight you.
I personally don't want to loose 3 kts on the top end, and if I can't get
into a field with a 3 kt higher stall I don't need to be there.
The RV already stalls slow enough and if you can get into a short
fields that push your takeoff capability already. Good Luck. If you
decide to go for it, try to do some before and after flight test and post
the results.
George (Just say no to VG's)
From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
--> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
Hi Bob,
Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to find
data in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
Jerry Cochran
Wilsonville, OR
Message 15
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: >Re:Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chuck <chuck515tigger@yahoo.com>
Bob,
I've got one word "Pirate".
I love to fly... and I've only been flyin' since 1976. I fly crafts from hang-gliders
to anything I can get my hands on. I had friends (still have some
of them) who use to let me fly their planes, before I wised-up and got licensed.
Some of them have since lost their medicals and are forced into Pirating
the skies. I sit shotgun for them whenever I can. They even pay for bi-annuals
and stay practiced. They are good pilots and fly very conservatively
with the knowledge of the additional risks they are placing on Everyone else (they
are not worried about themselves). I don't know your situation, but the
folks I'm thinking of have one common denominator "BP".
This is life and flyin' is a very important part of life to me and others.
I know I'm gonna get flamed, but oh well... asbestos britches on & standing-by.
Chuck
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I really like the slow speed stability and lower stall speed with my VG's.
My 1100' grass strip requires approach between trees @ about 35' AGL , so I
can't watch airspeed there. My landing & takeoff distance is only about half
the runway now.
I haven't been able to get enough time with them for more definitive
testing. My med ran out & I have been denied a special issuance so flying is on
hold now. My 62 hr. RV-4 sits and waits.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 16
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chuck <chuck515tigger@yahoo.com>
Andy,
If ya' want to sell them, I'll buy 'em. I'm workin' on another RV-4 and love
'em on my current 4 (definitely a believer in routine aerobatics, dog-fightin',
and short strips).
Chuck
Aircraft Technical Book Company <winterland@rkymtnhi.com> wrote:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Aircraft Technical Book Company"
I tried Micro Systems VGs on my 6A. Putting them on exactly as directed, I
didn't like them and took them off after about 10 hours.
Stall speed and the feel of the break didn't change at all (maybe 1 mph).
Cruise dropped 5-6 mph. There might have been a little more positive
control in slow flight, but that is hard to measure. I don't remember
notticing any change in takeoff performance. What it did do is increase
roll response noticeably. It was surprising on the first flight, and I
would describe it as almost twitchy, but after a few minutes I got used to
it and sort of liked it. But not enough to sacrifice the cruise for, so off
they went.
I'm told that Larry Vetterman's larger VGs are better, and that I might have
done better with the Micro's by positioning further forward than the
instructions suggested.
Andy
Builder's Bookstore
www.buildersbooks.com
Message 17
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: >Re:Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)
BP?
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Chuck <chuck515tigger@yahoo.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Chuck
>
> Bob,
>
> I've got one word "Pirate".
>
> I love to fly... and I've only been flyin' since 1976. I fly crafts from
> hang-gliders to anything I can get my hands on. I had friends (still have some
> of them) who use to let me fly their planes, before I wised-up and got licensed.
> Some of them have since lost their medicals and are forced into Pirating the
> skies. I sit shotgun for them whenever I can. They even pay for bi-annuals
> and stay practiced. They are good pilots and fly very conservatively with the
> knowledge of the additional risks they are placing on Everyone else (they are
> not worried about themselves). I don't know your situation, but the folks I'm
> thinking of have one common denominator "BP".
>
> This is life and flyin' is a very important part of life to me and others. I
> know I'm gonna get flamed, but oh well... asbestos britches on & standing-by.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>
> I really like the slow speed stability and lower stall speed with my VG's.
> My 1100' grass strip requires approach between trees @ about 35' AGL , so I
> can't watch airspeed there. My landing & takeoff distance is only about half
> the runway now.
> I haven't been able to get enough time with them for more definitive
> testing. My med ran out & I have been denied a special issuance so flying is
on
> hold now. My 62 hr. RV-4 sits and waits.
>
> Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> Charleston,Arkansas
> Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
>
>
>
>
>
>
BP?
do not archive
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Chuck chuck515tigger@yahoo.com
-- RV-List message posted by: Chuck <CHUCK515TIGGER@YAHOO.COM>
Bob,
I've got one word "Pirate".
I love to fly... and I've only been flyin' since 1976. I fly crafts from
hang-gliders to anything I can get my hands on. I had friends (still have some
of them) who use to let me fly their planes, before I wised-up and got licensed.
Some of them have since lost their medicals and are forced into Pirating the
skies. I sit shotgun for them whenever I can. They even pay for bi-annuals
and stay practiced. They are good pilots and fly very conservatively with the
knowledge of the additional risks they are placing on Everyone else (they are
not worried about themselves). I don
't know your situation, but the folks I'm
thinking of have one common denominator "BP".
This is life and flyin' is a very important part of life to me and others. I
know I'm gonna get flamed, but oh well... asbestos britches on standing-by.
Chuck
Oldsfolks@aol.com wrote:
-- RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
I really like the slow speed stability and lower stall speed with my VG's.
My 1100' grass strip requires approach between trees @ about 35' AGL , so I
can't watch airspeed there. My landing takeoff distance is only about half
the runway now.
I haven't been able to get enough time with them for more definitive
testing. My med ran out I have been denied a special issuance so flying is on
hold now. My 62 hr. RV-4 sits and waits.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&
;P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 18
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
There are No Free Lunches...but some come at a nice discount. There is
a significant difference in the wing of a Velocity canard and an RV, so
it's not totally unexpected that VGs may affect each differently.
The RVs/Bonanzas et al seem to consistently report a cruise loss of
3-5kts. In comparison, multiple Velocity drivers report they are not
able to see any difference at cruise with the VGs, but that stall is
reduced 5-7kts.
So, as always, YRMV.
Chuck Jensen
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:25 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
> let's try that again; darned laptop will SEND an email right in the
> middle if my fingers even touch the touchpad...
>
> George,
>
> the No Free Lunch rule might be evident here, but it's not axiomatic.
> There are airframes like RV's with a 4:1 speed ratio, and some with
better,
> others with worse. By tweaking aspect ratios, wing loading, airfoil
> selection, tail volume, horsepower, etc, performance can be altered.
The
> only way to know if VG's would lop off as much from the top end speed
as
> they add to the bottom is to put them on and go fly. It's not a
result we
> can know intuitively beforehand.
>
> If a N.F.L. Rule applied already, we'd never have seen an airframe
more
> efficient than the Wright Flyer. I'm fully expecting some clever
person
> to develop a VG-like mod that lowers the stall without penalizing
cruise
> by an equal amount.
>
> -Stormy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
> To: rv-list@matronics.com; Jerry2DT@aol.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Yes it is hard to get accurate data. People who sell them will tell
you
> all kind of things but here is where the NO FREE LUNCH rule comes
> in.
>
> You can expect about 3kts lower stall and about 3 kts lower, less
> top speed:
>
> http://www.iwantarocket.com/rv6/index.html
> select hyper text: vortex generators and you can see the results here
>
> or go direct here: http://ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
>
> Besides the Terry Jantzi above, who sells VG's, here are folks who
> will sell you VG's:
> http://www.pnwaero.com/
> http://www.microaero.com/
> http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
>
>
> Again you gain on the low you loose on the top. It is the conservation
> of the NO FREE LUNCH RULE. Expect to loose top end about the
> same as you gain on the bottom.
>
> Most VG manufactures are fairly honest or just don't really know, but
> some will also tell you that you will loose no top speed? I doubt that
> seriously. Some will tell you their VG's are better than VG's
> from XYZ's. They may be.
>
> My conclusion is leave them off. However I know if you want to DOG
> FIGHT you will have an advantage with VG's. If you do DOG FIGHT
> with your RV buddies you know it gets into a turning battle and the
first
> to run out of speed. The Lower stall will allow a slight advantage
> (smaller or slower turn) and you will usually win. DO it enough no one
> will want to dog-fight you.
>
> I personally don't want to loose 3 kts on the top end, and if I can't
get
> into a field with a 3 kt higher stall I don't need to be there.
>
> The RV already stalls slow enough and if you can get into a short
> fields that push your takeoff capability already. Good Luck. If you
> decide to go for it, try to do some before and after flight test and
post
> the results.
>
> George (Just say no to VG's)
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to find
> data in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
>
> Jerry Cochran
> Wilsonville, OR
>
>
>
>
>
Message 19
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | RE: [SoCAL-RVlist] VNY FSDO |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" <bicyclop@pacbell.net>
I'm hoping they're at work for all of us. Mark and I got our new oplims
and theoretically we're out of the fight now. I pushed on the EAA and
AOPA to go to work on this because I don't want anybody else to have to
go to the mat with the FAA later. The EAA didn't really need pushing.
They were eager to jump on it and just waiting for our oplims to clear
so those couldn't be held hostage. They have their yearly summit with
the FAA at Oshkosh in January. The memo and differing regional policies
are definitely on the agenda.
EAA rep Randy told me a FSDO horror story about a guy who bought a
homebuilt in southern Florida with 14 hours on it and the phase 1 not
complete. He moved it (disassembled) to northern Florida and applied for
a new test flight area in August. He had been told to send his original
airworthiness certificate and oplims in and they would turn them around
in 2 weeks. They lost the paperwork and he had to send copies (do you
have copies of all your paperwork in a safe place?). Every 2 weeks,
they told him it would be 2 weeks more. As of last week, and the EAA's
intervention on the guy's behalf, they had promised to issue the new
oplims the next day. I haven't heard if they came through. Part of the
problem is that the guy is based in extreme northern Florida and the
Miami FSDO says they can't give him a test area overlapping the Atlanta
FSDO's area. I guess they couldn't pick up the phone and coordinate
something with the other FSDO - no, so the oplims they finally agreed to
issue will force the guy to fly off his time to the south only so he can
remain in Miami's region. This story of bureaucracy run amok is another
example of why the FAA needs to be forced to set some rational national
policy and limit the regional FSDOs' authority.
The AOPA initially seems a little less interested. I got a call back
from a guy there who told me that he had called the FSDO claiming to be
an RV-6 pilot planning a trip into Santa Barbara and wanting to know if
there was going to be a problem. He was assured that there's no problem
and not to worry about the memo. I told the rep that I figure it's all
well and good to say that they won't enforce it, but how about later
when they change their mind about that. I also told him that the real
issue is the local setting of standards which may conflict with those in
other areas and a discriminatory restriction on one category of
aircraft. He said that there probably wouldn't be much happening about
it at AOPA until after the holidays, but that he'd get back to me.
Well, it's out in the open now and the lines are drawn. After they
issued our new oplims, the question in my mind was: did the current FSDO
manager support the former manager's policy or was it just an
unwillingness to deal with changing the policy? It's pretty obvious that
Swanson is not a friend to homebuilders. He isn't going to make it easy
for new homebuilt aircraft in his area. He can't do much about existing
ones so he's not going to fight us on that, although they did try to
hold up our oplims until I screamed.
Doesn't it sound like he's threatening more ramp checks, though? If you
are ramp checked, I bet the inspector can find a way to violate you if
he wants to bad enough. Read your oplims again, folks. Ours, issued in
'98, were definitely more restrictive than the new ones. Make sure that
all your required paperwork is in the plane and correct, just in case.
Pax,
Ed Holyoke
* -----Original Message-----
From: SoCAL-RVlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:SoCAL-RVlist@yahoogroups.com]
* Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 6:21 AM
Subject: [SoCAL-RVlist] VNY FSDO
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/537-full.html#191233
Looks like the EAA is at work for Ed.
_____
* Visit your group "SoCAL-RVlist
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoCAL-RVlist> " on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
SoCAL-RVlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:SoCAL-RVlist-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
_____
Message 20
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Running a tank dry intentionally |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
I did this again today to get a better assessment of speed/altitude loss
during the tank switch. I had just turned south to improve separation
with a CRJ so my speed control was affected. I was also looking for
the CRJ so my attention was diverted from immediate fuel starvation
monitoring. Once the engine started to stumble I reached down and
switched tanks. After about six seconds I turned the fuel pump on and
by 13 seconds the engine was running normally. Times are mental counting.
Altitude loss was insignificant but I lost 10-15 mph (So I maintained
altitude).
The prop never stopped.
Then on to COS for cheaper fuel and the dry tank again took 18.7 gallons
(RV-6A).
Ron Lee
Message 21
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: >Re:Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> stay practiced. They are good pilots and fly very conservatively
> with the knowledge of the additional risks they are placing on
> Everyone else (they are not worried about themselves). ...
Being one of the "everyone else", I'd tell them not to worry
about me. I'll hit the lottery twice in one month before one
of your buddies lands on my head due to a medical problem.
Gratuitous Disclaimer: I do not condone or encourage anyone
to bend or break any rules. All pilots are fully responsible
for their own actions, and the consequences thereof. Your
mileage may very. Some restrictions apply. Void where
prohibited. Batteries not included. Small parts may cause
choking. ...
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 22
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Howard Walrath" <der_Jagdflieger@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Vortex Generators
Jerry, I bought mine from Larry Vetterman (of exhaust system fame)
who worked with several RV owners including RV-4's and RV-6's.
He holds the rights to these and, as I recall, his price was about
$400, including shipping.
Installation took me about 3 hours, with die-cut templates and very
good instructions. Net result was a 9 to 10 knot drop in my 200 HP
RV-6A's power-on-stall speed, a much more docile stall, without the
"which way is she going to tuck this time?" excitement attendant
to Van's 23-foot wing span at very high angles of attack. My normal
landing speed is now about 10-knots slower than pre-VG's.
When I went through portions of Rich Stowell's Emergency
Maneuvers/Recovery From Unusual Attitudes training
in California, he remarked that my RV's stall/spin behavior
was the best he'd ever experienced in an RV.
If the VG's cost me anything in cruise, it is not discernible and
less than 1 Knot -- as I compared before and after detailed cruise
speeds at the same power settings on longer trips. I am a real
believer in them.
Howard
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Jerry2DT@aol.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 12:30 PM
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>
>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to
>> find data
>> in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
>>
>> Jerry Cochran
>> Wilsonville, OR
>>
>> From: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>> Subject: RV-List: >Re: Vortex Generators
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>>
>> The Micro systems Vortex generators is what I have on our RV-4. I
>> got
>> them
>> from Larry Vetterman 605-745-5932 , the exhaust system man.
>> Mine are aluminun,curved to wing contour and only 1/2 " tall. I
>> love them
>> for the lower stall speed and the stable handling at minimun
>> speed. I lost
>> nothing at top speed. I painted them to match my paint.
>>
>>
>> Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
>> A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
>> Charleston,Arkansas
>> Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 23
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
Where are the Velocity drivers putting the VGs? On the canard only,
or the canard and the main wing?
If they are putting them on the canard only, that would delay the
canard stall, and decrease the minimum speed. The canard is fairly
small, so the drag increase would be small. But they would be
running a very real risk of getting in a corner where the main wing
stalls first, and that would probably lead to loss of the aircraft.
If they are putting the VGs on the main wing and the canard, so as to
delay the stall of both, I can't imagine why there wouldn't be an
easily measurable drag increase.
Hopefully they are doing mods that have been well tested. Adding VGs
to the canard opens the pandora's box of stall testing with a
potentially unrecoverable stall. Not my idea of fun flight testing.
http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/VelocityDeepStall.pdf
http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/CP76/CP76-P2.htm
do not archive
Kevin Horton
On 22 Dec 2005, at 14:13, Chuck Jensen wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
>
> There are No Free Lunches...but some come at a nice discount.
> There is
> a significant difference in the wing of a Velocity canard and an
> RV, so
> it's not totally unexpected that VGs may affect each differently.
>
> The RVs/Bonanzas et al seem to consistently report a cruise loss of
> 3-5kts. In comparison, multiple Velocity drivers report they are not
> able to see any difference at cruise with the VGs, but that stall is
> reduced 5-7kts.
>
> So, as always, YRMV.
>
> Chuck Jensen
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
>> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of sportav8r@aol.com
>> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:25 PM
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>>
>> let's try that again; darned laptop will SEND an email right in the
>> middle if my fingers even touch the touchpad...
>>
>> George,
>>
>> the No Free Lunch rule might be evident here, but it's not axiomatic.
>> There are airframes like RV's with a 4:1 speed ratio, and some with
> better,
>> others with worse. By tweaking aspect ratios, wing loading, airfoil
>> selection, tail volume, horsepower, etc, performance can be altered.
> The
>> only way to know if VG's would lop off as much from the top end speed
> as
>> they add to the bottom is to put them on and go fly. It's not a
> result we
>> can know intuitively beforehand.
>>
>> If a N.F.L. Rule applied already, we'd never have seen an airframe
> more
>> efficient than the Wright Flyer. I'm fully expecting some clever
> person
>> to develop a VG-like mod that lowers the stall without penalizing
> cruise
>> by an equal amount.
>>
>> -Stormy
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com
>> To: rv-list@matronics.com; Jerry2DT@aol.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>>
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>>
>> Yes it is hard to get accurate data. People who sell them will tell
> you
>> all kind of things but here is where the NO FREE LUNCH rule comes
>> in.
>>
>> You can expect about 3kts lower stall and about 3 kts lower, less
>> top speed:
>>
>> http://www.iwantarocket.com/rv6/index.html
>> select hyper text: vortex generators and you can see the results here
>>
>> or go direct here: http://ontariorvators.org/pitot/pitot.htm
>>
>> Besides the Terry Jantzi above, who sells VG's, here are folks who
>> will sell you VG's:
>> http://www.pnwaero.com/
>> http://www.microaero.com/
>> http://www.landshorter.com/index.html
>>
>>
>> Again you gain on the low you loose on the top. It is the
>> conservation
>> of the NO FREE LUNCH RULE. Expect to loose top end about the
>> same as you gain on the bottom.
>>
>> Most VG manufactures are fairly honest or just don't really know, but
>> some will also tell you that you will loose no top speed? I doubt
>> that
>> seriously. Some will tell you their VG's are better than VG's
>> from XYZ's. They may be.
>>
>> My conclusion is leave them off. However I know if you want to DOG
>> FIGHT you will have an advantage with VG's. If you do DOG FIGHT
>> with your RV buddies you know it gets into a turning battle and the
> first
>> to run out of speed. The Lower stall will allow a slight advantage
>> (smaller or slower turn) and you will usually win. DO it enough no
>> one
>> will want to dog-fight you.
>>
>> I personally don't want to loose 3 kts on the top end, and if I can't
> get
>> into a field with a 3 kt higher stall I don't need to be there.
>>
>> The RV already stalls slow enough and if you can get into a short
>> fields that push your takeoff capability already. Good Luck. If you
>> decide to go for it, try to do some before and after flight test and
> post
>> the results.
>>
>> George (Just say no to VG's)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>>
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry2DT@aol.com
>>
>>
>> Hi Bob,
>>
>> Do you have any test data you could share with us? I've tried to find
>> data in the past on VG's, but seems to be very little.
>>
>> Jerry Cochran
>> Wilsonville, OR
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 24
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Running a tank dry intentionally |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
> I did this again today to get a better assessment of speed/altitude
> loss
> during the tank switch. I had just turned south to improve separation
> with a CRJ so my speed control was affected. I was also looking for
> the CRJ so my attention was diverted from immediate fuel starvation
> monitoring. Once the engine started to stumble I reached down and
> switched tanks. After about six seconds I turned the fuel pump on and
> by 13 seconds the engine was running normally. Times are mental
> counting.
>
> Altitude loss was insignificant but I lost 10-15 mph (So I maintained
> altitude).
> The prop never stopped.
>
> Then on to COS for cheaper fuel and the dry tank again took 18.7
> gallons
> (RV-6A).
What type of engine? Carburetor or fuel injection? If fuel
injection, which one? What kind of prop (wood fixed-pitch, metal
fixed-pitch, metal contant-speed or composite constant-speed)?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 25
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Running a tank dry intentionally |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
>What type of engine? Carburetor or fuel injection? If fuel
>injection, which one? What kind of prop (wood fixed-pitch, metal
>fixed-pitch, metal contant-speed or composite constant-speed)?
Lycoming O-360, carbureted, fixed-pitch wood prop(Aymar demuth)
Ron Lee
Message 26
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick McCraw" <rmccraw@s4t.net>
Regarding VGs and maneuvering speed: As stall goes down, so does
maneuvering speed. This was mentioned briefly in an earlier post, but I
thought I'd elaborate since that's a reason I didn't put them onto my
Bonanza.
Maneuvering speed is calculated from the stall speed. According to a couple
of sources I just googled (and this is in line with rather old recollection,
too), the formula is
Va = sqrt(load factor) * Vs
For instance, if you assume the standard category load factor of 3.8 and a
stall of 60 mph, Va becomes sqrt(3.8) * 60 = 116mph.
If VGs lower stall by 5 mph, Va drops by almost 10mph.
Another way to look at it is that the square root of 3.8 is almost 2, so you
lose almost twice as much from Va as you gain in stall.
Like everything, it's a tradeoff.
Rick
RV-7 emp
Message 27
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Vortex Generators |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-
> server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 4:01 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Vortex Generators
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> Where are the Velocity drivers putting the VGs? On the canard only,
> or the canard and the main wing?
They always put them on both the wing and the canard.
> If they are putting them on the canard only, that would delay the
> canard stall, and decrease the minimum speed. The canard is fairly
> small, so the drag increase would be small. But they would be
> running a very real risk of getting in a corner where the main wing
> stalls first, and that would probably lead to loss of the aircraft.
Yes, they are installed on both for the reason you cite...to maintain a
balance between the canard and wing stalls. With VGs, the the canard
stalls at a slower speed, but its important that the wing stalls at an
even slower speed, so the VGs are put on both.
> If they are putting the VGs on the main wing and the canard, so as to
> delay the stall of both, I can't imagine why there wouldn't be an
> easily measurable drag increase.
I can't imagine either, but there isn't. Or, if there is, its so small
that its imperceptible.
> Hopefully they are doing mods that have been well tested. Adding VGs
> to the canard opens the pandora's box of stall testing with a
> potentially unrecoverable stall. Not my idea of fun flight testing.
The VGs are well tested and a significant majority use them because of
the lower stall speed and little/no sacrifice in cruise. Most
roll-their-own with VGs that cost about a dime apiece. The factory
provides a template for application. Seems to work well. In general
the deep stalls are associated with a very bad aft CG. None have been
attributed to VG use.
> http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/VelocityDeepStall.pdf
> http://www.velocityxl.com/Downloads/CP76/CP76-P2.htm
>
> do not archive
>
> Kevin Horton
Message 28
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | LightSPEED headsets |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
I just got back my LightSpeed 15K ANC headset from the factory. I had returned
this seven year old headset for repair because I was only getting audio out of
one speaker, and I had also managed to break the plastic stirrup or bow piece
in which the ear cup swivels. The mic windscreen was lost long ago. This is
the very headset I wear while riding the lawnmower with the tow-behind trail-mower
for grooming the grass runway here - a sad way to abuse an aviation accessory,
but it's nice to mow in peace and quiet. I would never abuse my 20K set
in this way, just the wife's 15K ;-)
LightSPEED returned my headset promptly, with all new cabling and jacks, new headband
and stirrups, and replacement windscreen; it looks practically new and
works 100%. They even threw in a pair of AA alkalines to boot. My cost? Shipping
to them. Period. No repair or return shipping charges, nada. No questions
asked (except whether I would care to trade them in for $100 toward a set
of Thirty-3G's).
I can't say enough about their customer service. In the near future I hope to
try one of their new MachOne in-ear headsets (or is that a razor?) I'm looking
for something that won't scratch the canopy so much, or pop off my head when
pulling G's and swiveling my head in a dogfight.
Hard to see how you could go wrong with this company - fine people.
-Stormy
satisfied customer, not a shareholder
Message 29
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Aubrey" <aprice@fastspot.net>
I am building an RV7a with a IO 360 / 200 HP with Turbo Charger. The engine
is 40 pounds heavier plus the turbo. Should the battery be moved aft because
of the added weight.
Aubrey Price
N600AP
Message 30
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery Revival? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" <lhelming@sigecom.net>
Every battery has a limit of reliability and every PIC has a limit on what
risks to take with his/her type of flying. The age of the battery and the
number of times it has been cycled and temperature plays into the answer.
There is no perfect answer short of doing a stress test to see how the
battery performs after it is charged up. A battery stress tester at the
discharge rate you expect with an alternator failure was discussed recently
on the aeroelectric-list. Check their archives for more info. If the
battery can still perform to your expectations based on the stress test,
regardless of its age and past usage/abusage, it is still good for you. But
every battery has........a growing risk until one day its odds will get your
attention. Some advocate changing out the battery every year, some every
two, some just when it fails to start the plane, some stress testing it
every oil change after one year old.
Indiana Larry, RV7 Tip Up SunSeeker 77 hours
"Please use the information and opinions I express with responsibility, and
at your own risk."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery Revival?
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
> I should have noted that my battery is an Odyssey PC680 which
> may or may not react differently than yours.
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>>I revived mine and have been using it for many months but I plan on
>>replacing it soon since it has been in the plane a while.
>>
>>I would check the manufacturer website for their advice on the reliability
>>of your battery now. Also consider the cost if it fails on a
>>cross-country.
>>
>>Ron Lee
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 31
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | T'was The Night Before Christmas - Sports Planes Style |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Pellien" <jim@pellien.com>
'Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the forum
not an EMAIL was posted, not even a note.
The stockings were hung by the laptop with care,
in hopes that Tom P. soon would be there.
The pilots were nestled all snug in their beds,
while visions of SLSA's danced in their heads.
The aircraft in their hangars, and I in my cap,
had just settled our brains for a long winter's nap.
When out on the tarmac there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from my desk to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
tore open the shutter, and threw up the sash.
The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
gave the lustre of midday to the tie-downs below,
when, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
but a Light Sport Aircraft and eight big EAA 'rs.
With a little old pilot, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be Tom P.
More rapid than eagles, his coursers they came,
and he whistled and shouted and called them by name:
"Now Rutan! Now Melville!
Now, Fossett and Boyer!
On, Lawrence! On, Heintz!
On, Van G and Sawyer!
To the end of the runway!
To the tie-down area
Now Shut Down ! Shut Down!
Shut Down All Engines"
As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
when they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky
so up to the top of the FBO they flew,
with the sleigh full of flight toys, and Tom P. too.
And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
the prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head and was turning around,
down the chimney Tom P. came with a bound.
He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of new FAA rules he had flung on his back,
and he looked like a peddler just opening his pack.
He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
and filled all the stockings, with SP and LSA Rulings.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
and giving a nod, up the chimney he rose.
He sprang to his SLSA, completed his preflight,
And away he flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, 'ere he flew out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good night!"
(An Adaptation of the Classic Poem, "T'was the Night Before Christmas")
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All
Jim Pellien
Mid-Atlantic Sports Planes
The Mid-Atlantic Region of SportsPlanes.com
www.MASPL.com
703-313-4818
Message 32
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: LightSPEED headsets |
--> RV-List message posted by: Alan & Linda Daniels <aldaniels@fmtc.com>
I had the same experience with them. Outstanding service. Great headset.
sportav8r@aol.com wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
>
>I just got back my LightSpeed 15K ANC headset from the factory. I had returned
this seven year old headset for repair because I was only getting audio out
of one speaker, and I had also managed to break the plastic stirrup or bow piece
in which the ear cup swivels. The mic windscreen was lost long ago. This
is the very headset I wear while riding the lawnmower with the tow-behind trail-mower
for grooming the grass runway here - a sad way to abuse an aviation accessory,
but it's nice to mow in peace and quiet. I would never abuse my 20K
set in this way, just the wife's 15K ;-)
>
>LightSPEED returned my headset promptly, with all new cabling and jacks, new headband
and stirrups, and replacement windscreen; it looks practically new and
works 100%. They even threw in a pair of AA alkalines to boot. My cost? Shipping
to them. Period. No repair or return shipping charges, nada. No questions
asked (except whether I would care to trade them in for $100 toward a set
of Thirty-3G's).
>
>I can't say enough about their customer service. In the near future I hope to
try one of their new MachOne in-ear headsets (or is that a razor?) I'm looking
for something that won't scratch the canopy so much, or pop off my head when
pulling G's and swiveling my head in a dogfight.
>
>Hard to see how you could go wrong with this company - fine people.
>
>-Stormy
>
>satisfied customer, not a shareholder
>
>
>
>
Message 33
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Running a tank dry intentionally |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" <shempdowling2@earthlink.net>
I have an IO360 and ran my tank dry last summer. The engine re-lit
immediately upon switching tanks and boost pump on.
Shemp/Jeff Dowling
RV-6A, N915JD
235 hours
Chicago/Louisville
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Lee" <ronlee@pcisys.net>
Subject: RV-List: Running a tank dry intentionally
> --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>
> I did this again today to get a better assessment of speed/altitude loss
> during the tank switch. I had just turned south to improve separation
> with a CRJ so my speed control was affected. I was also looking for
> the CRJ so my attention was diverted from immediate fuel starvation
> monitoring. Once the engine started to stumble I reached down and
> switched tanks. After about six seconds I turned the fuel pump on and
> by 13 seconds the engine was running normally. Times are mental counting.
>
> Altitude loss was insignificant but I lost 10-15 mph (So I maintained
> altitude).
> The prop never stopped.
>
> Then on to COS for cheaper fuel and the dry tank again took 18.7 gallons
> (RV-6A).
>
> Ron Lee
>
>
>
Message 34
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A |
--> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com
I think you should put the battery anywhere you want.
You've not followed Van's recommendations relative to the powerplant and you
damn sure shouldn't call it a RV-7A.
I would hope the other RV-7 builders feel the same way. When the airplane
bites you in the butt I don't think that they should get painted with the same
brush of building and flying an unsound airplane.
By the way I said "when" it bites you, not" if"'.
BClary
RV-6A finished, flown and sold
Message 35
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Olen Goodwin" <ogoodwin@comcast.net>
Another helpful, well thought out answer.
----- Original Message -----
From: <UFOBUCK@aol.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A
> --> RV-List message posted by: UFOBUCK@aol.com
>
> I think you should put the battery anywhere you want.
> You've not followed Van's recommendations relative to the powerplant and
you
> damn sure shouldn't call it a RV-7A.
> I would hope the other RV-7 builders feel the same way. When the airplane
> bites you in the butt I don't think that they should get painted with the
same
> brush of building and flying an unsound airplane.
> By the way I said "when" it bites you, not" if"'.
>
> BClary
> RV-6A finished, flown and sold
>
>
Message 36
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: Battery on 200 HP Tubro 7A |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
Aubrey,
Lots of people who put heavier engines install the batteries
in or behind the baggage area. Some use a bit of lead way
back on top of the empennage, just under the vertical stabilizer.
Another option is to wait until you are finished, and add
ballast to the baggage area when you fly empty. It seems
the -10 guys also do this to get a bit more elevator authority
when landing.
Running the battery cables to the baggage area is a bit of
a hassle, but not too bad. With the additional size and
heat of the turbo, it might be good to get the battery
off the firewall.
> I am building an RV7a with a IO 360 / 200 HP with Turbo Charger. The engine
> is 40 pounds heavier plus the turbo. Should the battery be moved aft because
> of the added weight.
>
> Aubrey Price
> N600AP
>
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|