---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 12/28/05: 25 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:10 AM - Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) (Condon, Philip M.) 2. 06:49 AM - Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) (Fly n Low) 3. 06:49 AM - Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) (Tedd McHenry) 4. 10:33 AM - Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (Flyguy6a@aol.com) 5. 11:02 AM - Re: Rate of climb at higher altitudes 1.89 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX (Chris W) 6. 11:13 AM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (RV6 Flyer) 7. 12:15 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV (Tedd McHenry) 8. 12:15 PM - Re: Rate of climb at higher altitudes (RV6 Flyer) 9. 01:07 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (Kevin Horton) 10. 01:12 PM - Re: Novelty Aviation Table Lamp (Dave Nellis) 11. 01:20 PM - Re Storm @ OSH '05 (EMAproducts@aol.com) 12. 01:36 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV (Tedd McHenry) 13. 02:36 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (RV6 Flyer) 14. 02:39 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (RV6 Flyer) 15. 06:24 PM - Re: AOA sensor mounting question (HARRY CROSBY) 16. 06:32 PM - rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 17. 06:35 PM - GRT EIS users with Dual Mag Packs (luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky)) 18. 06:56 PM - Re: Rate of climb at higher altitudes (David Leonard) 19. 07:03 PM - Re: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down (Randy Lervold) 20. 07:04 PM - Darn good Christmas! (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 21. 09:40 PM - Re: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down (JOHN STARN) 22. 10:11 PM - Re: Novelty Aviation Table Lamp (Dave Nellis) 23. 10:31 PM - Re: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down (Dan Checkoway) 24. 10:35 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV (Tedd McHenry) 25. 10:56 PM - Re: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (Rob Prior (rv7)) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:50 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) From: "Condon, Philip M." --> RV-List message posted by: "Condon, Philip M." ".....I haven't worked it out for the newer Eggenfellner engine, but for the previous, 2.5-litre engine 4600 RPM would give approximately the same piston speed as a Lycoming has at 2600 RPM......." Tedd, how is that possible? A crank, be it a lycoming crank or a Subaru crank -- spins....one at say 2500 RPM (Lycoming), the other at, say 5000RPM (Subaru). All pistons in question are connected to the cranks via con rods. How can piston speed be the same when the cranks are spinning at vastly different speeds ?? S ....................................................................... .................. Time: 10:43:38 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > The H-6 is a real smooth engine, but not sure about 7000 rpm in cruise. As so often happens, this Subaru-RPM issue is in a spiral dive and needs to be brought under control by the application of facts. Eggenfellner's web site lists 5900 RPM as maximum climb and 4600 RPM as cruise. I haven't worked it out for the newer Eggenfellner engine, but for the previous, 2.5-litre engine 4600 RPM would give approximately the same piston speed as a Lycoming has at 2600 RPM. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:20 AM PST US From: "Fly n Low" Subject: RE: RV-List: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) --> RV-List message posted by: "Fly n Low" Piston speed depends upon stroke. Longer stroke means the piston travels a greater distance each revolution. A shorter stroke means it travels a shorter distance each revolution thus it is moving slower. Bud Silvers RV8 -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Condon, Philip M. Subject: RV-List: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) --> RV-List message posted by: "Condon, Philip M." ".....I haven't worked it out for the newer Eggenfellner engine, but for the previous, 2.5-litre engine 4600 RPM would give approximately the same piston speed as a Lycoming has at 2600 RPM......." Tedd, how is that possible? A crank, be it a lycoming crank or a Subaru crank -- spins....one at say 2500 RPM (Lycoming), the other at, say 5000RPM (Subaru). All pistons in question are connected to the cranks via con rods. How can piston speed be the same when the cranks are spinning at vastly different speeds ?? S ....................................................................... .................. Time: 10:43:38 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > The H-6 is a real smooth engine, but not sure about 7000 rpm in cruise. As so often happens, this Subaru-RPM issue is in a spiral dive and needs to be brought under control by the application of facts. Eggenfellner's web site lists 5900 RPM as maximum climb and 4600 RPM as cruise. I haven't worked it out for the newer Eggenfellner engine, but for the previous, 2.5-litre engine 4600 RPM would give approximately the same piston speed as a Lycoming has at 2600 RPM. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:59 AM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RV-List: Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF (piston speed comment in error ?) --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry Philip: > Tedd, how is that possible? A crank, be it a lycoming crank or a Subaru > crank -- spins....one at say 2500 RPM (Lycoming), the other at, say > 5000RPM (Subaru). All pistons in question are connected to the cranks > via con rods. How can piston speed be the same when the cranks are > spinning at vastly different speeds ?? S Piston speed depends on stroke length. The stroke of the Subaru engine is a little over half the stroke of the Lycoming. If you cut the stroke length in half the piston speed is cut in half for the same RPM. Or, alternatively, you can rev twice as high at the same piston speed. This is one key reason that auto engines can safely rev much higher than airplane engines. Other reasons are lower piston masses, leading to reduced connecting rod stress, and lower valvetrain masses, leading to higher valvetrain harmonics. And, of course, more rigid crankcases and shorter, stiffer crankshafts. The Subaru engine has particularly low reciprocating masses, even for an auto engine, and has an especially rigid crankcase and crankshaft. These features make it very well suited to sustained high-RPM, high-output applications such as aircraft. --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:47 AM PST US From: Flyguy6a@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Flyguy6a@aol.com Martin.. I too like the "rumble" of the Lycosaurus. I heard a Sube in an RV9a and thought it was one of those 2-stroke powered flying wing/kite thingies when I first heard it, something like an angry bee. I would want to totally muffle the thing if it were mine, the noise is annoying, IMO, even with the muffler it had. I note the Sube autos are very quiet, I guess you can't fit a big enough muffler on the conversions. OTOH, the Lyco, like Harley bikes, has a pleasing exhaust note, and I would never want to muffle it, part of the charm... Now I'll go along and struggle into my Nomex suit... Jack Lucas From: "Martin Hone" Subject: RV-List: Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" The H-6 is a real smooth engine, but not sure about 7000 rpm in cruise. I like the rumble of the Lycoming, and I regularly get 6.3 US gallons per hr fuel burn at 55-60% power, so I can't complain about the economy over the past 200 hours either. FWIW Martin in Oz ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:02:58 AM PST US From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net> Date": is.96.hours.or.more.after.Received:date@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Rate of climb at higher altitudes 1.89 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net> Ron Lee wrote: >Recently someone west of me was considering a turbocharger (at >least his partner was) in an RV8, IO360, CS prop so they could get >to 15000' to cross a mountain range then drop down. I can't find >the post so here is the info anyway. > >RV-6A, carbureted O-360, fixed wood prop (Aymar-Demuth) > >Altitude IAS (mph) Rate of climb (fpm) >13000' 120 600 >14000' 120 500 > > > From that and the other numbers I have seen, unless you are going to seriously overload the plane, I don't see why you need a turbo to get well over any mountain in the 48 states. I think Dan was going to to a climb test with his IO-360 CS prop. Not sure but I think you can get from 0 to 18,000 in a little over 15 minutes. Now if you want to fly at 18,000 with some more speed, then a turbo would be nice but getting there with out one is no problem with an IO-360 and CS prop. Even with a normally aspirated engine your true air speed is going to be pretty good at that altitude. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:13:16 AM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" So what is the Specific fuel consumption? We know what the Lycoming burns in pounds per hour per horsepower produced. What does the Subie do? If you do not know, what GPH at what RPM and what Horespower at what RPM? Yes the Subie powered aircraft that is based were I am is also the most noisy aircraft here and makes more noise than the Cessna 337's. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,825 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Flyguy6a@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Flyguy6a@aol.com Martin.. I too like the "rumble" of the Lycosaurus. I heard a Sube in an RV9a and thought it was one of those 2-stroke powered flying wing/kite thingies when I first heard it, something like an angry bee. I would want to totally muffle the thing if it were mine, the noise is annoying, IMO, even with the muffler it had. I note the Sube autos are very quiet, I guess you can't fit a big enough muffler on the conversions. OTOH, the Lyco, like Harley bikes, has a pleasing exhaust note, and I would never want to muffle it, part of the charm... Now I'll go along and struggle into my Nomex suit... Jack Lucas From: "Martin Hone" Subject: RV-List: Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "Martin Hone" The H-6 is a real smooth engine, but not sure about 7000 rpm in cruise. I like the rumble of the Lycoming, and I regularly get 6.3 US gallons per hr fuel burn at 55-60% power, so I can't complain about the economy over the past 200 hours either. FWIW Martin in Oz ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:13 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RE: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > So what is the Specific fuel consumption? I couldn't find that on Eggenfellner's web site, but auto engines typically have slightly lower BSFC than Lycomings, due to less favourable cylinder surface-to-volume ratio. However, water cooling and electronic engine management mean that the Eggenfellner engines can run at an optimized fuel-air ratio all the time (i.e., no richening the mixture for take-off, climb, etc.). > Yes the Subie powered aircraft that is based were I am is also the most > noisy aircraft here and makes more noise than the Cessna 337's. At first I thought you meant T-37, and I was most impressed! I have flown Charlie Walker's Eggenfellner-powered Glastar and was most impressed with how quiet it is. But that's all subjective. I don't have any data on noise levels. There's no question that cruising at 3800-4200 RPM (where Charlie cruises in his Glastar) takes some getting used to. But if you work out the numbers you discover that the important parameters (piston speed, piston acceleration forces, main bearing wear index) are around the same as for a Lycoming at 2400 RPM. Obviously, what sort of sound appeals to you is subjective. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:13 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rate of climb at higher altitudes --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" I had my little 160 HP CS RV-6 up to 17,800 once over 6 years ago. Was no problem. Still climibing 300 FPM at 100 KIAS. I do not remember the time to climb there but I was still on the tank I took off on and I switch every 30 minutes. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,826 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net> is.96.hours.or.more.after.Received:date@roxy.matronics.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Rate of climb at higher altitudes 1.89 DATE_IN_FUTURE_96_XX Date: is 96 hours or more after Received: date --> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net> Ron Lee wrote: >Recently someone west of me was considering a turbocharger (at >least his partner was) in an RV8, IO360, CS prop so they could get >to 15000' to cross a mountain range then drop down. I can't find >the post so here is the info anyway. > >RV-6A, carbureted O-360, fixed wood prop (Aymar-Demuth) > >Altitude IAS (mph) Rate of climb (fpm) >13000' 120 600 >14000' 120 500 > > > From that and the other numbers I have seen, unless you are going to seriously overload the plane, I don't see why you need a turbo to get well over any mountain in the 48 states. I think Dan was going to to a climb test with his IO-360 CS prop. Not sure but I think you can get from 0 to 18,000 in a little over 15 minutes. Now if you want to fly at 18,000 with some more speed, then a turbo would be nice but getting there with out one is no problem with an IO-360 and CS prop. Even with a normally aspirated engine your true air speed is going to be pretty good at that altitude. -- Chris W KE5GIX Gift Giving Made Easy Get the gifts you want & give the gifts they want One stop wish list for any gift, from anywhere, for any occasion! http://thewishzone.com ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:07:13 PM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 28 Dec 2005, at 15:13, Tedd McHenry wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > >> So what is the Specific fuel consumption? > > I couldn't find that on Eggenfellner's web site, but auto engines > typically > have slightly lower BSFC than Lycomings, due to less favourable > cylinder > surface-to-volume ratio. However, water cooling and electronic engine > management mean that the Eggenfellner engines can run at an > optimized fuel-air > ratio all the time (i.e., no richening the mixture for take-off, > climb, etc.). Tedd, You say "lower SFC". Do you mean lower as in a lower number, or lower as in less good? I would have expected the less favourable cylinder surface to volume ratio to lead to higher fuel consumption, and the optimized fuel-air ratio to lead to lower fuel consumption, with the overall result (i.e. higher or lower fuel consumption) impossible to know without doing some testing. Occasionally I hear reports from some auto-conversion guys quoting lower fuel flows, but I've always had the impression they were making less hp in cruise too. A Lycoming powered RV cruising at low power has low fuel flow too. It would be very interesting to see what happens when a Lycoming powered RV and a Subie powered RV go off on a cross country trip together, cruising at the same speeds. I wonder who will burn less fuel. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:02 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Novelty Aviation Table Lamp --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis Ok, lots of problems with Ebay as this is the first item I have sold, bought lots of stuff, never sold. My bad. The item has been relisted, item 4599797102. I have an email in to support asking that they change the ad to show 6 items left to sell. Yes, I have one sold. Sorry for the Ebayineptitude. Thank you for your patience. Dave --- Dave Nellis wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis > > > Greetings, > > I am an RV enthusiast and am almost finished with > the > empennage kit for a 7A. I have been laid off since > mid March and there is no sign of relief. Hence, > going further on my project at this time is out of > the > question, especially with two kids in college. So, > I > am trying to raise some funds to pay bills. > > I have built a novelty table lamp from an engine > cylinder. I have cylinders to make six more. > Please > view the lamp on Ebay at the following site. If you > are interested, please reply. If not, thanks for > looking. > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item4599797102&sspagenameADME%3AL%3ALCA%3AUS%3A31 > > Dave Nellis > > > > > > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:45 PM PST US From: EMAproducts@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Re Storm @ OSH '05 --> RV-List message posted by: EMAproducts@aol.com RVer's As everyone who was at OSH in '05 knows Monday night we had a big blow. Unfortunately, my album of photos was nearly totally destroyed by moisture when our 2 10X20 tents blew down. Many of the photographs were originals and sadly I had no duplicates. Between this and a computer hard drive failure I have lost a large number of photos from my customers. I am unable to contact many due to e-mail address changes, moving etc. If you have the RiteAngle installed on your aircraft please send me either via e-mail or postal a copy if you would. I lost many photos going back over 10 years from our R&D days. Thanks in advance! Sincerely, Elbie Elbie Mendenhall EM Aviation, LLC 13411 NE Prairie Rd Brush Prairie, WA 98606 360-260-0772 _www.riteangle.com_ (http://www.riteangle.com) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:36:34 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > You say "lower SFC". Do you mean lower as in a lower number, or > lower as in less good? Sorry, yes, that's exactly what I meant. Poor use of terminology on my part. I think auto engine SFC is about 0.45 lb/hp-h for a modern engine like the Subaru, as opposed to 0.42 for a properly-leaned Lycoming. But those numbers are just from memory. Tedd ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:45 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Tedd: Anyone can say anything. How about some FACT and sources to back up actual DATA. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,825 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RE: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > So what is the Specific fuel consumption? I couldn't find that on Eggenfellner's web site, but auto engines typically have slightly lower BSFC than Lycomings, due to less favourable cylinder surface-to-volume ratio. However, water cooling and electronic engine management mean that the Eggenfellner engines can run at an optimized fuel-air ratio all the time (i.e., no richening the mixture for take-off, climb, etc.). > Yes the Subie powered aircraft that is based were I am is also the most > noisy aircraft here and makes more noise than the Cessna 337's. At first I thought you meant T-37, and I was most impressed! I have flown Charlie Walker's Eggenfellner-powered Glastar and was most impressed with how quiet it is. But that's all subjective. I don't have any data on noise levels. There's no question that cruising at 3800-4200 RPM (where Charlie cruises in his Glastar) takes some getting used to. But if you work out the numbers you discover that the important parameters (piston speed, piston acceleration forces, main bearing wear index) are around the same as for a Lycoming at 2400 RPM. Obviously, what sort of sound appeals to you is subjective. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:28 PM PST US From: "RV6 Flyer" Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "RV6 Flyer" Tedd: Anyone can say anything. How about some FACT and sources to back up actual DATA. 0.42 lbs/hr / hp is better than 0.045. Show me the calculations of piston speed, cylinder pressures, and crankshaft wear. I see you throwing lots of info out with no source of where it came from. What is the source of this info? I do not trust memory. Gary A. Sobek "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, 1,818 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > You say "lower SFC". Do you mean lower as in a lower number, or > lower as in less good? Sorry, yes, that's exactly what I meant. Poor use of terminology on my part. I think auto engine SFC is about 0.45 lb/hp-h for a modern engine like the Subaru, as opposed to 0.42 for a properly-leaned Lycoming. But those numbers are just from memory. Tedd ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:24:28 PM PST US From: "HARRY CROSBY" Subject: Re: RV-List: AOA sensor mounting question --> RV-List message posted by: "HARRY CROSBY" I installed my PSS Sport AOA per the instructions with a water drain hole in the bottom of the wing and a plastic tube glued in place to guide the wire to reach the drain fitting. It has been through several rain storms and several washings with no attempt to block sensing holes and I have never gotten a drop of water out of the drain. Harry Crosby RV-6 N16CX, 161 hours and down for painting. ----- Original Message ----- From: Subject: RV-List: AOA sensor mounting question > --> RV-List message posted by: RKAlex123@aol.com > > A question for those of you that have installed an Angle of Attack > indicator. The upper wing sensor has a water separator which requires > access from below to drain any accumulated water. Did you just drill > an access hole in the lower wing to reach this drain with an extension > wire? Or is water draining needed so infrequently that using an access > panel or wingtip removal to reach the drain sufficient? There is no clear > guidance in the instructions from Advanced. Appreciate any advise. > > Bob Alexander > RV7 > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:32:06 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) RV-8@yahoogroups.com (RV8 List) Subject: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up elevator throw. Does that sound right? I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also a CS prop, battery on the FW and thinks something is wrong as his won't lift up at that rpm. thoughts? lucky When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up elevator throw. Does that sound right? I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also aCS prop, battery on the FWand thinks something is wrong as his won't lift up at that rpm. thoughts? lucky ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:35:04 PM PST US From: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) Subject: RV-List: GRT EIS users with Dual Mag Packs --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) I have a A1B6D model 200 hp engine. What P/R number works to get the right RPM reading on the EIS? I've tried just about every one you can program in and haven't found the magic one yet. GRT says they don't know what value to use for that mag setup. thx, lucky I have a A1B6D model 200 hp engine. What P/R number works to get the right RPM reading on the EIS? I've tried just about every one you can program in and haven't found the magic one yet. GRT says they don't know what value to use for that mag setup. thx, lucky ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 06:56:51 PM PST US From: David Leonard Subject: Re: RV-List: Rate of climb at higher altitudes --> RV-List message posted by: David Leonard > > > I had my little 160 HP CS RV-6 up to 17,800 once over 6 years ago. Was no > problem. Still climibing 300 FPM at 100 KIAS. I do not remember the time > to > climb there but I was still on the tank I took off on and I switch every > 30 > minutes. > > > Gary A. Sobek > "My Sanity" RV-6 N157GS O-320 Hartzell, > 1,826 + Flying Hours So. CA, USA > http://SoCAL_WVAF.rvproject.com > > Gary is absolutely right in that any RV still has plenty of performance at altitude. It is also true that the fixed pitch RV's have very adequate climb performance. However, many people spend thousands on a c/s prop to improve climb performance mostly because it is more satisfying. A turbo can do the same thing for you. At 17k' I can still climb at over 1000 fpm at 120KIAS with my fixed pitch prop. Sure makes it nice to have that climb authority at any altitude, especially when there is some sort of icing risk and there is a cloud ahead. I debated long and hard before installing a turbo and only decided to install one late in the game. And despite the fact that it has caused me an unplanned landing at an airport far from home - I am now very glad I have it. At Big Bear, I still climb out like I am at sea level. (And that is off the ground before the displaced threshold). That is nice piece of mind. It allows my f/p prop to perform almost as well as a c/s, and the extra available power never hurts. The turbo is something of a project, but not insurmountable by a long shot. (probably easier for the rotary than a lyc because of the availability of OEM and aftermarket parts). The big picture is this: in aircraft, turbos allow the efficient use of higher (low drag) air at altitude. They can make a smaller, lighter, less expensive engine perform like a larger one up where we spend the majority of flight time. Like an alternate engine, a turbo is not for everyone. It is REALLY not NEEDED, especially with the 200h.p. c/s birds everyone is building nowadays. But keep you hands off mine! :-) -- Dave Leonard Turbo Rotary RV-6 N4VY (only 170hrs. with admittedly lots of minor problems) http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/rotaryroster/index.html http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/vp4skydoc/index.html ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 07:03:20 PM PST US From: "Randy Lervold" Subject: Re: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down --> RV-List message posted by: "Randy Lervold" ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" ; "RV8 List" Subject: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I > have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up > elevator throw. > > Does that sound right? > > I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt > installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another > local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also a > CS prop, battery on the FW and thinks something is wrong as his won't lift > up at that rpm. > > thoughts? > > lucky Lucky, If you're not holding your stick full back then the tail may well come up, I was never brave enough to try it. I did do quite a few 2400 rpm runs though for prop balancing, but again with the stick full back and had no problem. Randy Lervold www.rv-3.com www.rv-8.com ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:34 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: RV-List: Darn good Christmas! --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Best present I got this year (next to my new front tire) was the one-six right DVD- If y'all haven't seen this, it's the best documentary I've seen (even if there were no RVs in it) since Michelle's "The West Coast RV Trip"- The air2air fotogs are well worth the price of admision alone... Get it from Sporty's http://onesixright.com Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:40:12 PM PST US From: "JOHN STARN" Subject: Re: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down --> RV-List message posted by: "JOHN STARN" I've posted for years on this subject. If you have heard it before delete now. EVERY RV (and derivatives) with a tail wheel can, have & well nose over if too much RPM is used for run-up OR if the prop is cycled at high RPM when the prop get a big ole bite of air. Every RV is different BUT ALL of them can, have & will continue to nose over. Chain the tail down FIRST, do a run up to determine YOUR comfort level. On N561FS we use 1,700 as max RPM until on a roll. HRII 250HP IO-540. Fail to learn from the mistakes others will result in "ding, ding, ding, clunk". The "dings" are the prop tips & the "clunk" is the spinner. It happens waaay too fast to correct. 27 degrees up helps BUT 90 degrees would not be enough if you cycle the prop at 2200 RPM with the brakes locked. IF you have done this already consider yourself VERY Lucky. Do Not Try It once you have the CG set. Once it's on it's nose, get help, lots of it, to get the tail wheel back down SLOWLY. DO NOT attempt to pull it down by yourself, you will break its back. Refer to X-15 photos for examples of what will happen. KABONG Do Not Archive this is all ready in there. ---- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" ; "RV8 List" Subject: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I > have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up > elevator throw. > > Does that sound right? > > I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt > installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another > local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also a > CS prop, battery on the FW and thinks something is wrong as his won't lift > up at that rpm. > > thoughts? > > lucky > > When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I > have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up > elevator throw. > > Does that sound right? > > I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt > installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another > local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also aCS > prop, battery on the FWand thinks something is wrong as his won't lift up > at that rpm. > > thoughts? > > lucky ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:39 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Novelty Aviation Table Lamp --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis Someday I will learn this ebay stuff. New item number is as follows 4600741450 Dave Nellis --- Dave Nellis wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis > > > Greetings, > > I am an RV enthusiast and am almost finished with > the > empennage kit for a 7A. I have been laid off since > mid March and there is no sign of relief. Hence, > going further on my project at this time is out of > the > question, especially with two kids in college. So, > I > am trying to raise some funds to pay bills. > > I have built a novelty table lamp from an engine > cylinder. I have cylinders to make six more. > Please > view the lamp on Ebay at the following site. If you > are interested, please reply. If not, thanks for > looking. > Dave Nellis > > > > > > Just $16.99/mo. or less. > dsl.yahoo.com > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:38 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" 2200 RPM?!?!? Yikes!!! Hopefully you don't mean to imply that you do your normal run-up at that RPM. FWIW, I do mine no higher than 1800 RPM (RV-7 200hp IO-360-A1B6). When I weighed my plane, my tail was only 58 pounds, which is only 5.21% of the entire aircraft empty weight. From talking to others, that's a pretty tail-light setup. I am very careful when running up not to apply too much power. I have lifted my tail when running up only ONCE, and that was when the tail was tied down (this was an intentional test, a full-power run-up). I imagine the RV-8's tail with the heavy engine/prop up front will have an even lighter tail than mine due to the longer arm (I assume?). If you're just trying to determine if the behavior you're seeing is normal, I would say...sure is. Be careful. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "lucky" ; "RV8 List" Subject: RV-List: rpm run up vs tail wheel staying down > --> RV-List message posted by: luckymacy@comcast.net (lucky) > > When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I > have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up > elevator throw. > > Does that sound right? > > I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt > installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another > local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also a > CS prop, battery on the FW and thinks something is wrong as his won't lift > up at that rpm. > > thoughts? > > lucky > > When running up to about 2200 rpm, my RV8 tail lifts off of the ground. I > have an angle valved, 200 hp engine with hartzell CS prop. 27 degrees up > elevator throw. > > Does that sound right? > > I haven't done my CG yet but I have my battery in the back and the elt > installed under the VS. My tail is relatively heavy compared to another > local tail dragger 8 I have picked up. He has a 180 HP engine and also aCS > prop, battery on the FWand thinks something is wrong as his won't lift up > at that rpm. > > thoughts? > > lucky > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:25 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > I see you throwing lots of info out with no source of where it came from. > What is the source of this info? Thank goodness I kept my spreadsheet! Piston Speed ============ Piston speed is simply one half the stroke times the rotational speed (in appropriate units). Another way of looking at this is the ratio of stroke lengths for two different engines gives the ratio of piston speeds at a given RPM. The stroke for a Lycoming O-360 is 4.375 inches. The stroke for an Eggenfellner Subaru is 3.11 inches. (Gary, you were right not to trust my memory. I had remembered the Subaru stroke as being closer to 2.5 inches.) Therefore, the stroke ratio for the two engines is 4.375/3.11=1.4. So the Subaru has the same piston speed at 3400 RPM as the Lycoming has at 2400 -- lower than I remembered. Eggenfellner recommends a cruise RPM between 3800 and 4200, which is between 12 and 24 percent higher than the Lycoming's cruise piston speed (assuming the Lycoming is cruising at 2400 RPM). Mean Piston Pressure (BMEP) =========================== Mean piston pressure is calculated from: 2*P/(V*n) where P is power, V is displacement, and n is rotational speed (in consistent units). This is from the Bosch Automotive Handbook, but you will find the same formula in many engineering texts. To use this formula you need to express power in ft-lb/s (i.e., HP*550), rotational speed in rad/s (i.e., RPM x 2 x pi / 60 ), and displacement in cubic feet. This gives you MPP in pounds per square foot. For an O-360 at 135 HP and 2400 RPM (i.e. 75%) we get an MPP of 3195. Based on the power curve for the stock Subaru engine, available here http://www.vansairforce.org/tmp/Subaru_torque_graph.jpg the Subaru is capable of producing about 128 HP at 4200 RPM, WOT, and sea level pressure. (That link won't last forever, so I recommend downloading it if you want to keep it.) That 128 HP translates to about 108 HP at 8,000 feet. (This is exactly the same math that gives 135 HP from an O-360 at 2400 RPM and 8,000 feet.) This is something that potential Eggenfellner customers need to realize: the 2.5-litre engine probably isn't going to have quite the same cruise performance as a 160-horse Lycoming. I haven't run the numbers for the new 3.0-litre engine. Presumably, it will have similar MPP but 20 percent more power. Anyway, for a 2.5-litre Eggenfellner Subaru at 4200 RPM and 108 HP we get an MPP of 3051, or about 4 percent below the Lycoming's. Bearing Wear ============ Unfortunately, I've lost the bearing wear calculations I did, and the reference that tells me how to calculate it. Unlike piston speed and MPP, the calculation for bearing wear index is not something you can figure out easily from first principles (at least, I can't). In general terms, though, the Subaru fares well in the bearing wear calculations because it is a five-main-bearing engine with very highly optimized bearing geometry, and it has very light reciprocating components. (Inertial loads are as important as piston pressure loads at the higher RPMs.) Customers report no signs of bearing wear in spectroscopic oil analyses at over 800 hours on the Eggenfellner engine. But that's just heresay, so I don't expect it will impress Gary. :) Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:56:31 PM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: Re: RV-List: Lyco rumble & Subie was :Re: Subaru 6900 RPM in a RV - WTF --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 22:35:00 2005-12-28 Tedd McHenry wrote: > Customers report no signs of bearing wear in spectroscopic oil > analyses at over 800 hours on the Eggenfellner engine. But that's > just heresay, so I don't expect it will impress Gary. :) Nowhere near as much as the rest of the email impressed me, in any case. Very nicely done. -Rob