Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:46 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Nic)
2. 04:59 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Kevin Horton)
3. 05:14 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon (Steve Glasgow)
4. 06:35 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
5. 07:40 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Jim Anglin)
6. 07:47 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (D.Bristol)
7. 08:05 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Ed Bundy)
8. 08:50 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (RobHickman@aol.com)
9. 08:50 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
10. 08:52 AM - Re: Carb Heat? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
11. 09:06 AM - pop rivet conversion question (Knicholas2@aol.com)
12. 09:15 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray)
13. 09:38 AM - Artificial Horizon (Mickey Coggins)
14. 10:16 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Skylor Piper)
15. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Kevin Horton)
16. 10:32 AM - rv antenna locations (JIM ETCHEVERRY)
17. 10:39 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
18. 10:41 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon (Steve Glasgow)
19. 10:43 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
20. 10:52 AM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Terry Watson)
21. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
22. 11:43 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Frank Stringham)
23. 11:50 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon (rv6n6r@comcast.net)
24. 12:10 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray)
25. 12:50 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray)
26. 12:58 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (Chopper 2)
27. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Chuck Jensen)
28. 01:42 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Doug Gray)
29. 02:04 PM - Re: rv antenna locations (Ron Lee)
30. 02:21 PM - Re: Artificial Horizon (Steve Glasgow)
31. 04:52 PM - Re: rv antenna locations (Rick Galati)
32. 05:17 PM - Re: General coment re instumentation (D.Bristol)
33. 05:38 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon (D.Bristol)
34. 05:55 PM - >Re: I HATE PINHOLES (Oldsfolks@aol.com)
35. 07:24 PM - Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES (Jeff Orear)
36. 09:31 PM - Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES (Paul Rice)
37. 09:51 PM - service instruction 1305c (Steven DiNieri)
38. 10:24 PM - Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES (gerns25@netscape.net)
39. 11:36 PM - Re: General coment re instumentation (Mickey Coggins)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" <Nic@skyhi.flyer.co.uk>
Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say OPEC),
which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines for so
long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
Nic
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 21 Jan 2006, at 04:43, Nic wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" <Nic@skyhi.flyer.co.uk>
>
> Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
> comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say
> OPEC),
> which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines
> for so
> long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
> Nic
I don't think the engines are the problem. Lycomings and
Continentals have a fairly good specific fuel consumption for
gasoline engines (i.e. how much fuel they burn to make a certain
amount of power). The problem is the airframe. If you want to burn
less fuel to go from point A to point B, you need an airframe that
has less drag. Less drag means the engine needs to produce less
power, which means less fuel burned. The amateur built community has
made a lot of progress in this area, and some of if has trickled
across to the type certificated world.
If we want engines with better specific fuel consumption, we need to
move to diesel engines. But they are heavier for a given power
output, which makes them not so attractive.
Here's an interesting read on fuel burn and power claims from
alternative engine manufacturers:
http://www.sdsefi.com/air8.html
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Here is another option. Does anyone have any experence with it?
http://www.lightflying.com.au/Stratomaster%20Pages/Artificial%20Horizons%20&%20Compasses.htm
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5657#5657
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on untested,
uncertified instrumentation.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glasgow
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 8:14 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Here is another option. Does anyone have any experence with it?
http://www.lightflying.com.au/Stratomaster%20Pages/Artificial%20Horizons%20&
%20Compasses.htm
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5657#5657
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" <n144hr@earthlink.net>
Oh my God Charlie! How can you possibly fly without a digital engine monitor,
altitude hold, and AOA indicator? And for VFR flight you are taking your life
in your hands flying without a Dynon or some kind of EFIS. I am on my knees
every day giving thanks for surviving all the hours I have flown not knowing the
difference in EGTs for each cylinder.
F, D, and H
jim
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
Fuel is NOT cheap in the US. It costs more in other countries simply
because of government gouging, our government just doesn't gouge as much
- yet. So, if we triple the cost of gas then we'll get better engines? I
don't think so because to develop a new engine a company has to have a
market to sell them to and that market will have long since dried up
because of fuel prices.
I have nothing against new engine technology, if fact I'm all for it,
but I wish people would quit knocking Lycoming, my O-360 is one of the
most reliable engines around and gives me almost 20 mpg in my -6 -
that's better than many automobiles.
Sorry for the rant, but both these items touched a nerve.
Dave
do not archive
>
>Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
>comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say OPEC),
>which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines for so
>long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
>Nic
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
I don't know if you're referring to one particular unit, or new instrument
technology in general, but having had a gyro failure in IMC, I understand it
very well. Also, having had to pay for several vacuum gyro/pump rebuilds I
LOVE having an electronic EFIS and digital engine management system.
Anyone want to buy a complete Rapco vacuum system and AH?
Ed Bundy
> I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life
> on untested,
> uncertified instrumentation.
>
> Bruce
--
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:38:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Bruce@glasair.org writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on untested,
uncertified instrumentation.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Yet you will go out and bet your life on an untested, uncertified plastic
airplane?
Sorry, I could not resist....
Rob Hickman
Do Not Archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
While a transistor or computer chip might have a greater MTBF than
mechanical gyros, The software that drives these new wonders remains, for
the most part, untested. Sure the companies make some rudimentary tests but
nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated
electro-whizzys.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Bundy
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
I don't know if you're referring to one particular unit, or new instrument
technology in general, but having had a gyro failure in IMC, I understand it
very well. Also, having had to pay for several vacuum gyro/pump rebuilds I
LOVE having an electronic EFIS and digital engine management system.
Anyone want to buy a complete Rapco vacuum system and AH?
Ed Bundy
> I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life
> on untested,
> uncertified instrumentation.
>
> Bruce
--
Message 10
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--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Yo Bobby- were ya lookin' for a commercial unit or roll yer own?
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/index.php?q=log_entry&log_id=5008
Mark - do not archive
Message 11
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| Subject: | pop rivet conversion question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Knicholas2@aol.com
Sorry guys, this is not directly RV related but I need help . Now that the
RV9 is done, I am starting on a new project. The plans for the Niueport 12 use
Advel 1661-0401 1/8" pop rivets and Emhart AD 64 BS pop rivets.
I can't find either brand as listed. Can anyone help with the conversion
for Cherry pop rivets for each type.
Thanks!
Kim Nicholas
Auburn, WA
RV9
Do not archive
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
OK, I'll go there......
We build our airplanes, be they plastic or aluminum, from proven
designs/kits using accepted methods of construction and, most of us,
certified engines. The only thing left to test, after your FAA inspection
(which is to insure no parts are going to fall off), is the airworthiness of
the beast. That can be determined in the standard 25/40 hour test period. If
you built a known kit your chances of success are good, if it's your own
design you did on the back of a napkin, don't fly over my house.
The same cannot be said for the latest crop of electronic game screens.
They're untested, uncertified, and just plane dangerous for all except
strictly VFR airplanes.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:49 AM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:38:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Bruce@glasair.org writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
untested,
uncertified instrumentation.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
Yet you will go out and bet your life on an untested, uncertified plastic
airplane?
Sorry, I could not resist....
Rob Hickman
Do Not Archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
I agree that the software is the weak point in any computer
system. Always has been, probably always will be. There
are many things, however, that are higher risk than these
devices, including the electric system. I've read of
forced landings due to electric system failure, but
I can't recall a single crash due to an uncertified
electronic AI failing. Not saying it has not happened,
but I have not seen any reports.
I think a well-designed and implemented electric system,
a la Bob N., and two independent AIs from different
manufacturers will be *a lot* more reliable than a
certified vacuum pump and certified gyro AIs.
Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> While a transistor or computer chip might have a greater MTBF than
> mechanical gyros, The software that drives these new wonders remains, for
> the most part, untested. Sure the companies make some rudimentary tests but
> nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated
> electro-whizzys.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Bundy
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:04 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
>
> I don't know if you're referring to one particular unit, or new instrument
> technology in general, but having had a gyro failure in IMC, I understand it
> very well. Also, having had to pay for several vacuum gyro/pump rebuilds I
> LOVE having an electronic EFIS and digital engine management system.
>
> Anyone want to buy a complete Rapco vacuum system and AH?
>
> Ed Bundy
>
>
>
>>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life
>>on untested,
>>uncertified instrumentation.
>>
>>Bruce
>
>
>
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper <skylor4@yahoo.com>
There have been some interesting comments in this
thread. I feel the urge to respond to several of
them.
1. "Fuel is NOT cheaper in this country..."
If you think fuel is expensive in the US, you have
obviously not bought gasoline in Germany & other
European countries...
2. "Have seen many posts re engine monitors etc.
Makes me
wonder how we kept em in the air when all we had was
good judgment."
To me, this is an incredibly asinine statement. This
is like saying "how did we ever keep em in the air
when all we had was wood and fabric."
The modern engine monitor is probably the single most
useful piece of equipment to come to general aviation
in many years. Sure, planes fly just fine without
them. However, there are many, many examples on this
list of people experiencing engine problems that would
simply be much easier to trouble shoot with engine
monitor data. If you've ever had to pay a mechanic to
repeatedly trouble shoot a pesky ignition problem on a
certified aircraft, and you understand the
capabilities of multi-cylinder engine monitors, then
you would realize their true value.
An engine monitor, properly used, can also give
advance warning to serious internal problems such as
valve failure. To me, this is is worth every penny...
3. Engine efficiency...
Kevin Horton already pointed out a good link regarding
engine efficiency. Those that believe a modern, small
displacement EFI/EI automobile engine is going to be
more efficient in an aircraft than a Lycoming or
Continental simply aren't looking at the real numbers.
As stated, efficient automobile gasoline engines
typically have BSFC in the range of .42-.46. That is
WITHOUT the gear reduction units required to turn an
aircraft propeller at efficient and safe speeds. A
gear (or belt) reduction unit WILL reduce the
efficiency. Large bore FI Lycomings & Continentals
already have BSFC numbers in the .37-.41 range. This
is about as good as it gets for gasoline engines!
Furthermore, there seems to be some misunderstanding
that somehow "modern EFI" will improve efficiency in
an aircraft environment. Most people arguing the
virtues of automobile engines over aircraft engines
seem to forget a very important point: Automobile
engines are designed to operate in a very dynamic,
variable speed & power environment. This is where EFI
shines, by maintaining correct mixtures though out
this dynamic environment. Aircraft engines generally
operate at constant speed and power settings for long
periods of time. EFI offers little benefit in this
case. Mechanical fuel injection (and even
carburetors) do a very good job of atomizing fuel
efficiently, and providing the correct mixture at
constant speeds and manifold pressures. A mixture
knob is NOT that hard to use to optimize cruise
mixtures, especially if you have a good ENGINE
MONITOR!
By the way...what happened Bombardier's great "modern"
liquid cooled, V6 aircraft engine that they are
working on? I have heard that Bombardier has stated
fuel efficiency numbers at Osh that simply don't "add
up" for this type of engine...my bet is that they're
having trouble meeting their marketing claims with
this design.
DO NOT ARCHIVE.
Skylor
RV-8 QB
Under Const.
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 21 Jan 2006, at 11:52, Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> While a transistor or computer chip might have a greater MTBF than
> mechanical gyros, The software that drives these new wonders
> remains, for
> the most part, untested. Sure the companies make some rudimentary
> tests but
> nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated
> electro-whizzys.
DO-178 compliance only "ensures" that the software code has correctly
implemented the specification that describes how it should function.
DO-178 compliance does not ensure that the specification is correct
and complete (it attempts to do this, but it fails). I have done
quite a bit of flight testing on aircraft with new systems with
DO-178 compliant code. Most of the problems that we find are due to
problems with the functional specification - i.e. the coder did a
perfect job incorporating a flawed specification. There are often
particular scenarios that the functional specification did not
envision, and this leads to anomalous behaviour.
DO-178 compliant or not, the only way to determine if the system
works correctly is to to a lot of testing, over the full range of
conditions that the system will see in service.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 16
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| Subject: | rv antenna locations |
--> RV-List message posted by: "JIM ETCHEVERRY" <ETCHY1@comcast.net>
I am building a 7A and would like to know the antenna locations and type of antennas
used and how well or not well they have worked. For the following. Comm
,Nav, Glideslope,Gps,tranponder and elt. Thanks Jim
Message 17
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| Subject: | Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
That's because no one is left alive to tell us.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mickey Coggins
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:38 PM
Subject: RV-List: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
I agree that the software is the weak point in any computer
system. Always has been, probably always will be. There
are many things, however, that are higher risk than these
devices, including the electric system. I've read of
forced landings due to electric system failure, but
I can't recall a single crash due to an uncertified
electronic AI failing. Not saying it has not happened,
but I have not seen any reports.
I think a well-designed and implemented electric system,
a la Bob N., and two independent AIs from different
manufacturers will be *a lot* more reliable than a
certified vacuum pump and certified gyro AIs.
Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> While a transistor or computer chip might have a greater MTBF than
> mechanical gyros, The software that drives these new wonders remains, for
> the most part, untested. Sure the companies make some rudimentary tests
but
> nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated
> electro-whizzys.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ed Bundy
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:04 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Bundy" <ebundy@speedyquick.net>
>
> I don't know if you're referring to one particular unit, or new instrument
> technology in general, but having had a gyro failure in IMC, I understand
it
> very well. Also, having had to pay for several vacuum gyro/pump rebuilds
I
> LOVE having an electronic EFIS and digital engine management system.
>
> Anyone want to buy a complete Rapco vacuum system and AH?
>
> Ed Bundy
>
>
>
>>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life
>>on untested,
>>uncertified instrumentation.
>>
>>Bruce
>
>
>
>
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on untested,
uncertified instrumentation.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
--
There is no rush. Some of us have trashed our gyros doing acro and would like
to find a solid state replacement that fits in the hole in our panels.
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5715#5715
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
DO178 compliance, faults included, at least insures a known level of
functionality, otherwise, as I've said before, everyone is a beta tester.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 21 Jan 2006, at 11:52, Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> While a transistor or computer chip might have a greater MTBF than
> mechanical gyros, The software that drives these new wonders
> remains, for
> the most part, untested. Sure the companies make some rudimentary
> tests but
> nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated
> electro-whizzys.
DO-178 compliance only "ensures" that the software code has correctly
implemented the specification that describes how it should function.
DO-178 compliance does not ensure that the specification is correct
and complete (it attempts to do this, but it fails). I have done
quite a bit of flight testing on aircraft with new systems with
DO-178 compliant code. Most of the problems that we find are due to
problems with the functional specification - i.e. the coder did a
perfect job incorporating a flawed specification. There are often
particular scenarios that the functional specification did not
envision, and this leads to anomalous behaviour.
DO-178 compliant or not, the only way to determine if the system
works correctly is to to a lot of testing, over the full range of
conditions that the system will see in service.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 20
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| Subject: | General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Terry Watson" <terry@tcwatson.com>
Every time we get a good conspiracy theory going, someone like Kevin comes
along with some facts and spoils the fun. Spoilsport!
Terry
Do not archive
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 21 Jan 2006, at 04:43, Nic wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Nic" <Nic@skyhi.flyer.co.uk>
>
> Charlie, an interesting comment on reliability or perhaps it is just a
> comment on how cheap fuel currently is in the USA (or should I say
> OPEC),
> which has stifled the introduction of better more efficient engines
> for so
> long. Give me instrumentation and reduced fuel burn every time.
> Nic
I don't think the engines are the problem. Lycomings and
Continentals have a fairly good specific fuel consumption for
gasoline engines (i.e. how much fuel they burn to make a certain
amount of power). The problem is the airframe. If you want to burn
less fuel to go from point A to point B, you need an airframe that
has less drag. Less drag means the engine needs to produce less
power, which means less fuel burned. The amateur built community has
made a lot of progress in this area, and some of if has trickled
across to the type certificated world.
If we want engines with better specific fuel consumption, we need to
move to diesel engines. But they are heavier for a given power
output, which makes them not so attractive.
Here's an interesting read on fuel burn and power claims from
alternative engine manufacturers:
http://www.sdsefi.com/air8.html
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
If you use your airplane for acro why do you need gyros?
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glasgow
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:41 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on untested,
uncertified instrumentation.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
--
There is no rush. Some of us have trashed our gyros doing acro and would
like to find a solid state replacement that fits in the hole in our panels.
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5715#5715
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
steam gages / vacuum pumps / and slide rules according to this old chemsitry
teacher should be all you need..................bull...............computer
technology on the ground or in the air is here to stay. One person poison is
anothers delicious cake. So like all opinions lets here them and then by
are one experience evaluate the opiinions factuality. Glass panels have now
and will in the future become the standard just as the hand held calculator
forced me to side line my beloved slide rule. Oh and by the way good friends
don't let their friend fly plastic airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank @ SGU and SLC RV7A under construction....fuse/fininsh/all glass panel
DON"T ARCHIVE
>From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified Date: Sat, 21 Jan
>2006 12:16:20 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>OK, I'll go there......
>
>We build our airplanes, be they plastic or aluminum, from proven
>designs/kits using accepted methods of construction and, most of us,
>certified engines. The only thing left to test, after your FAA inspection
>(which is to insure no parts are going to fall off), is the airworthiness
>of
>the beast. That can be determined in the standard 25/40 hour test period.
>If
>you built a known kit your chances of success are good, if it's your own
>design you did on the back of a napkin, don't fly over my house.
>
>The same cannot be said for the latest crop of electronic game screens.
>They're untested, uncertified, and just plane dangerous for all except
>strictly VFR airplanes.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:49 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:38:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>Bruce@glasair.org writes:
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
>untested,
>uncertified instrumentation.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>Yet you will go out and bet your life on an untested, uncertified plastic
>airplane?
>
>
>Sorry, I could not resist....
>
>Rob Hickman
>Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: rv6n6r@comcast.net
>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
>untested, uncertified instrumentation.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
We are in a rush to get away from betting our lives on antiquated technology that
has a proven track record of marginal reliability (truckload of FAA certification
paperwork notwithstanding.) Besides, no one's advocating doing away with
the concept of independent backup instruments.
> If you use your airplane for acro why do you need gyros?
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
Okay, I get it now. You're on this list just to heckle us, right? Okay I'll humor
ya.. ;-) Here's the deal -- few RVers can resist the occasional or even not
so occasional loop, aileron roll, cuban-8, etc., whether or not some of us also
fly IFR in order to get from point A to point B when the clouds are down low.
These are versatile machines, why should the instrumentation be less so?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
do not archive
Message 24
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Now, Now, I haven't thrown any stones at your 'beer can' airplanes. We all
make our choices and have our reasons. You can load up your RV with all the
computer gizmo's you want, fly off into the nearest cloud bank, merrily on
your way to your next ILS approach. Just don't think all that stuff makes
you safer (it doesn't), or less prone to an accident (it doesn't). When that
hypnotic HITS (Highway in the sky) symbology leads you to a premature
arrival 1 mile short of the runway because you were flying computed data
rather than raw data, just say, "Oh well, I guess the programer didn't catch
that one!", that's if you can.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Stringham
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:42 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
steam gages / vacuum pumps / and slide rules according to this old chemsitry
teacher should be all you need..................bull...............computer
technology on the ground or in the air is here to stay. One person poison is
anothers delicious cake. So like all opinions lets here them and then by
are one experience evaluate the opiinions factuality. Glass panels have now
and will in the future become the standard just as the hand held calculator
forced me to side line my beloved slide rule. Oh and by the way good friends
don't let their friend fly plastic airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!
Frank @ SGU and SLC RV7A under construction....fuse/fininsh/all glass panel
DON"T ARCHIVE
>From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified Date: Sat, 21 Jan
>2006 12:16:20 -0500
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>OK, I'll go there......
>
>We build our airplanes, be they plastic or aluminum, from proven
>designs/kits using accepted methods of construction and, most of us,
>certified engines. The only thing left to test, after your FAA inspection
>(which is to insure no parts are going to fall off), is the airworthiness
>of
>the beast. That can be determined in the standard 25/40 hour test period.
>If
>you built a known kit your chances of success are good, if it's your own
>design you did on the back of a napkin, don't fly over my house.
>
>The same cannot be said for the latest crop of electronic game screens.
>They're untested, uncertified, and just plane dangerous for all except
>strictly VFR airplanes.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:49 AM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
>
>
>In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:38:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>Bruce@glasair.org writes:
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
>untested,
>uncertified instrumentation.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
>
>
>Yet you will go out and bet your life on an untested, uncertified plastic
>airplane?
>
>
>Sorry, I could not resist....
>
>Rob Hickman
>Do Not Archive
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
No, I'm really not on this list to heckle you guys. My Glasair III has a 75k
panel and no EFIS, I do have an EHSI though. I did some serious research
into this subject (low cost EFIS) when I was making the decisions for my own
airplane. I'm just trying to pass on some of the information I uncovered and
the decision tree that led me to this point.
Let me give you the LONG story. The FAA has determined that in order for an
EFIS to be considered/certified in an aircraft as a PRIMARY attitude display
and means of navigation, it must meet several criteria. The main one's are
that there be dual independent systems with an electronic comparator/alerter
and a backup third tie breaker attitude gyro. I'm sure you all have seen the
certified Garmin G1000, Avidyne and Chelton certified single systems now
coming out without duel redundant systems. How did they do that? It's
simple, all these EFIS systems in certified airplanes are certified as
SECONDARY flight display systems, not PRIMARY. The old fashioned backup
steam gages are the primary flight instruments for the airplane.
What's the big deal? It has to do with human factors engineering
(man/machine interface). Data point - A recent FAA study showed that it took
the average GA pilot 4 seconds to respond (lower the nose) to an engine out
takeoff emergency. 4 seconds! That's a long time. Now, we've all looked at
these new displays, very pretty and HYPNOTIC. If they fail and don't alert
or go dark the average GA IFR pilot will take a long time to revert to
needle, ball, and airspeed. If you're at 400 AGL on the ILS looking for the
runway on an approach to minimums and the AHRS hits a bad line of code,
giving you an erroneous 10 degree nose down pitch command, you're toast. The
dual system/alerter/third gyro are there to try and give you a chance to
survive when time is of the essence.
Oh, you're a super pilot on partial panel and don't need all this redundant
stuff, good you make your choices and go. But just be aware of the pitfalls
of your decisions. Safer? I don't know. Time will tell. I just don't want
any of you guys to be among the statistics.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of rv6n6r@comcast.net
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:50 PM
Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
--> RV-List message posted by: rv6n6r@comcast.net
>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
>untested, uncertified instrumentation.
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
We are in a rush to get away from betting our lives on antiquated technology
that has a proven track record of marginal reliability (truckload of FAA
certification paperwork notwithstanding.) Besides, no one's advocating
doing away with the concept of independent backup instruments.
> If you use your airplane for acro why do you need gyros?
>
>Bruce
>www.glasair.org
Okay, I get it now. You're on this list just to heckle us, right? Okay I'll
humor ya.. ;-) Here's the deal -- few RVers can resist the occasional or
even not so occasional loop, aileron roll, cuban-8, etc., whether or not
some of us also fly IFR in order to get from point A to point B when the
clouds are down low. These are versatile machines, why should the
instrumentation be less so?
Randall Henderson
RV-6
do not archive
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chopper 2" <mkellems@bellsouth.net>
Am I out of line by asking. Isn't the testing and trying of new ideas the
core of Experimental Aviation? Isn't that what it's all about?
Where would we be today in this "hobby" of ours without new untested ideas?
One that comes to mind is the complete building of a fiberglass aircraft.
Oh, and Do Not Archive. Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:02 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> If you use your airplane for acro why do you need gyros?
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Glasgow
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:41 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
>
> I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
> untested,
>
> uncertified instrumentation.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
> --
>
> There is no rush. Some of us have trashed our gyros doing acro and would
> like to find a solid state replacement that fits in the hole in our
> panels.
>
> --------
> Steve Glasgow-Cappy
> Cappy's Toy
> RV-8 N123SG
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5715#5715
>
>
> --
>
>
--
Message 27
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Chuck Jensen" <cjensen@dts9000.com>
Bruce,
I installed a rearview mirror on my Velocity....so I can keep an eye on
those RVs!!!
Chuck
Do Not Archive
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
Now, Now, I haven't thrown any stones at your 'beer can' airplanes.
--> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham"
<fstringham@hotmail.com>
Oh and by the way good friends don't let their friend fly plastic
airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!
Message 28
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified |
--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
But throw a stone at a plastic aeroplane and and you get low impact damage and
possible
delamination. Need then resort to an extensive coin test (now we're talking sophisticated
testing)
to ensure the integrity of the structure.
Then there is the Glass Transition temperature at about 2x the cure temperature.
So if the structure
is assembled in the garage and cures at 25C - the GTT is about 50C. New Years day
2006 at my home
(in shade) was 44.5C pretty close to that GTT.
Then there is the potential to have the materials go off or become contaminated
before use
(hygroscopic -> moisture contamination).
A software bug with an EFIS will not cause the aircraft to fall from the sky unless
you are in solid
IFR at the time. Like always you should have a backup TC or other if you are entering
IFR (legally
or not).
The probability of being in IFR and having a horizon failure is slight especially
if the intention
is for it to be a VFR aircraft and the IFR penetration was inadvertent. Interestingly
such failures
are documented for vac systems with alarming frequency.
A major risk for electrical electronic and mechanical systems is failure due to
the environment -
high vibration, thermal and pressure cycling. This is an acknowledged risk, but
we have to accept it.
Software bugs is another significant problem. The Dynon 'leans' was a classic
example but was
rapidly rectified as soon as the problem became apparent.
What about the GPS's we fly? Do they all have RAIM display? Do they have the certification,
and
then there is the GPS satellite system?
We all do our personal risk assessments (well I hope we do) when we launch a flight
or decide to
build an aircraft ourselves. We may not think of them formally like a system engineer
may do, but we
do assess according to what we can reasonably know.
I have made my own assessment, that is why I am building a metal aeroplane, installing
a Lycoming
with a GRT EIS, with an unproven EFIS/GPS/AP for **strictly** VFR use only.
Sorry for the log rambling post - and the slight against plastic aircraft but this
is after all the
rv-list.
Doug Gray
RV-6 instrument selection and decision making.
Bruce Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>
> Now, Now, I haven't thrown any stones at your 'beer can' airplanes. We all
> make our choices and have our reasons. You can load up your RV with all the
> computer gizmo's you want, fly off into the nearest cloud bank, merrily on
> your way to your next ILS approach. Just don't think all that stuff makes
> you safer (it doesn't), or less prone to an accident (it doesn't). When that
> hypnotic HITS (Highway in the sky) symbology leads you to a premature
> arrival 1 mile short of the runway because you were flying computed data
> rather than raw data, just say, "Oh well, I guess the programer didn't catch
> that one!", that's if you can.
>
> Bruce
> www.glasair.org
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Frank Stringham
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 2:42 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Frank Stringham" <fstringham@hotmail.com>
>
> steam gages / vacuum pumps / and slide rules according to this old chemsitry
>
> teacher should be all you need..................bull...............computer
> technology on the ground or in the air is here to stay. One person poison is
>
> anothers delicious cake. So like all opinions lets here them and then by
> are one experience evaluate the opiinions factuality. Glass panels have now
> and will in the future become the standard just as the hand held calculator
> forced me to side line my beloved slide rule. Oh and by the way good friends
>
> don't let their friend fly plastic airplanes!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Frank @ SGU and SLC RV7A under construction....fuse/fininsh/all glass panel
>
> DON"T ARCHIVE
>
>
>
>>From: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>>To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
>>Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified Date: Sat, 21 Jan
>>2006 12:16:20 -0500
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>>
>>OK, I'll go there......
>>
>>We build our airplanes, be they plastic or aluminum, from proven
>>designs/kits using accepted methods of construction and, most of us,
>>certified engines. The only thing left to test, after your FAA inspection
>>(which is to insure no parts are going to fall off), is the airworthiness
>>of
>>the beast. That can be determined in the standard 25/40 hour test period.
>>If
>>you built a known kit your chances of success are good, if it's your own
>>design you did on the back of a napkin, don't fly over my house.
>>
>>The same cannot be said for the latest crop of electronic game screens.
>>They're untested, uncertified, and just plane dangerous for all except
>>strictly VFR airplanes.
>>
>>Bruce
>>www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com
>>Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 11:49 AM
>>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified
>>
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com
>>
>>
>>In a message dated 1/21/2006 6:38:47 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>>Bruce@glasair.org writes:
>>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
>>
>>I really don't understand this rush to go out and bet your life on
>>untested,
>>uncertified instrumentation.
>>
>>Bruce
>>www.glasair.org
>>
>>
>>
>>Yet you will go out and bet your life on an untested, uncertified plastic
>>airplane?
>>
>>
>>Sorry, I could not resist....
>>
>>Rob Hickman
>>Do Not Archive
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 29
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|
| Subject: | Re: rv antenna locations |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>I am building a 7A and would like to know the antenna locations and type
>of antennas used and how well or not well they have worked. For the
>following. Comm ,Nav, Glideslope,Gps,tranponder and elt. Thanks Jim
Comm: Bent whip on bottom of fuselage. Works great.
Nav/Glideslope: Archer antenna in wingtip. Seems ok but cannot assure that
there is no body blockage. I am assuming that the GS
is from
that antenna.
GPS: Mine is on the fuselage top behind the slider but many here build a ledge
on the firewall top area and it seems to work ok there (just under the top
cowl)
Transponder: Small one on bottom
ELT: Aft fuselage under empennage fairing but some place it in the cargo area.
Ron Lee
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Okay, I get it now. You're on this list just to heckle us, right? Okay I'll humor
ya.. Here's the deal -- few RVers can resist the occasional or even not so
occasional loop, aileron roll, cuban-8, etc., whether or not some of us also
fly IFR in order to get from point A to point B when the clouds are down low.
These are versatile machines, why should the instrumentation be less so?
Randall Henderson
[/quote]
Thanks Randall, I agree totally. What is a Glasair anyway?
Can they go over the top and round and round?
--------
Steve Glasgow-Cappy
Cappy's Toy
RV-8 N123SG
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5752#5752
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: rv antenna locations |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rick Galati" <rick6a@yahoo.com>
ETCHY1(at)comcast.net wrote:
> I am building a 7A and would like to know the antenna locations and type of antennas
used and how well or not well they have worked. For the following. Comm
,Nav, Glideslope,Gps,tranponder and elt. Thanks Jim
I have a Comant bent whip comm ant. centered between the gear legs and works as
advertised.
Like many RV builders I installed the ELT antenna underneath the empennage fairing.
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2617/gps20de.jpg
The ELT itself is mounted on a tray tied into the ribs underneath the baggage floor.
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7508/cabin32xv.jpg
The Garmin 430 GPS locks on quickly and has performed flawlessly with the antenna
located under the upper cowl.
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/2617/gps20de.jpg
Rick Galati RV-6A "Darla" 106 hours
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5791#5791
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
You missed the point of my comment Skylor. I did not say that fuel was
not "cheaper" in the US, I said that it was not "cheap".
3.50-4.50 per gallon in NOT cheap. I've been there and I know that it's
more expensive in Europe, but that's because people there have even LESS
control of government tax gouging than we do. I'm sure that they pay
about the same wholesale price for oil that the US does but their
governments add a LOT more taxes than ours does. That does NOT make our
gas "cheap".
Dave
do not archive
Skylor Piper wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper <skylor4@yahoo.com>
>
>There have been some interesting comments in this
>thread. I feel the urge to respond to several of
>them.
>
>
>1. "Fuel is NOT cheaper in this country..."
>
>If you think fuel is expensive in the US, you have
>obviously not bought gasoline in Germany & other
>European countries...
>
>
>
Message 33
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|
| Subject: | Re: Artificial Horizon |
--> RV-List message posted by: "D.Bristol" <dbris200@sbcglobal.net>
Now come on guys, these transistors and ic's are mostly - yes - plastic!
So Bruce might have a point, after all he knows plastic.
Dave
do not archive
Steve Glasgow wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
>
>Okay, I get it now. You're on this list just to heckle us, right? Okay I'll humor
ya.. Here's the deal -- few RVers can resist the occasional or even not so
occasional loop, aileron roll, cuban-8, etc., whether or not some of us also
fly IFR in order to get from point A to point B when the clouds are down low.
These are versatile machines, why should the instrumentation be less so?
>
>Randall Henderson
>
>[/quote]
>
>Thanks Randall, I agree totally. What is a Glasair anyway?
>Can they go over the top and round and round?
>
>--------
>Steve Glasgow-Cappy
>Cappy's Toy
>RV-8 N123SG
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5752#5752
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES |
--> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
Boy !! ME TOO !!!
I hate fibreglas in any form but we have to suffer through it .
I finally found out about Ploy Fibre "Smooth Prime " ,after I had my
fingers bleeding just from sanding the parts the air sander couldn't reach !!
I really regretted not knowing about "Smooth Prime" sooner. A couple of
coats , with easy sanding & it is done. NO PINHOLES !!!!!!!!
Try it - you'll like it.
Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
Charleston,Arkansas
Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Bob:
How much Smooth Prime did you go through? Did a quart do the job or did you
need more than that? I am trying to apply your experience to a 6A cowl.
Regards,
Jeff Orear
RV6A N782P (reserved)
Darn close to inspection time..
Peshtigo, WI
----- Original Message -----
From: <Oldsfolks@aol.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:54 PM
Subject: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
> --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
>
> Boy !! ME TOO !!!
> I hate fibreglas in any form but we have to suffer through it .
> I finally found out about Ploy Fibre "Smooth Prime " ,after I had my
> fingers bleeding just from sanding the parts the air sander couldn't reach
> !!
> I really regretted not knowing about "Smooth Prime" sooner. A couple of
> coats , with easy sanding & it is done. NO PINHOLES !!!!!!!!
> Try it - you'll like it.
>
> Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> Charleston,Arkansas
> Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
>
>
>
Message 36
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|
| Subject: | Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
Where can you get smooth prime?
Paul
RV8QB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
>
> Bob:
>
> How much Smooth Prime did you go through? Did a quart do the job or did
> you
> need more than that? I am trying to apply your experience to a 6A cowl.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Orear
> RV6A N782P (reserved)
> Darn close to inspection time..
> Peshtigo, WI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Oldsfolks@aol.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:54 PM
> Subject: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
> >
> > Boy !! ME TOO !!!
> > I hate fibreglas in any form but we have to suffer through it .
> > I finally found out about Ploy Fibre "Smooth Prime " ,after I had my
> > fingers bleeding just from sanding the parts the air sander couldn't
> > reach
> > !!
> > I really regretted not knowing about "Smooth Prime" sooner. A couple
> > of
> > coats , with easy sanding & it is done. NO PINHOLES !!!!!!!!
> > Try it - you'll like it.
> >
> > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> > Charleston,Arkansas
> > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | service instruction 1305c |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steven DiNieri" <capsteve@adelphia.net>
Can anyone tell me where I might find a copy of Lycoming service instruction
1305c on the net? I searched high and low with less than favorable
results.....i'm guessing they must be free... really, after spending 25-35
grand for a motor they should at least give the information away to fix
their mistakes ;]
Steven dinieri
N221rv
N231rv
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES |
--> RV-List message posted by: gerns25@netscape.net
Here is another area where they RC jet guys have figured it out. There is a product that I have used on 4 radio controlled fiberglass jets made by Bob Violet Models (www.bvmjets.com) that is a paste of sorts that is simply rubbed on, allowed to dry, and then rubbed off using a paper towel. This paste is about the consistency of paste car wax. It works awesome on pinholes and is used before primer. I think it is called "BVM Pinhole filler"...Wow, isn't that creative! One would need to buy a couple cans of it as the cans are relatively small. Like I said, I have used it before and it works very well and is simple and quick. I plan on using this when I do my cowl and other fiberglass parts on my RV7. Just another option out there.
Darin Hawkes
RV7 N619PB res.
Waiting for Wing Kit
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Rice <rice737@msn.com>
Sent: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 00:29:42 -0500
Subject: Re: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
--> RV-List message posted by: "Paul Rice" <rice737@msn.com>
Where can you get smooth prime?
Paul
RV8QB
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 10:23 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Orear" <jorear@new.rr.com>
>
> Bob:
>
> How much Smooth Prime did you go through? Did a quart do the job or did
> you
> need more than that? I am trying to apply your experience to a 6A cowl.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff Orear
> RV6A N782P (reserved)
> Darn close to inspection time..
> Peshtigo, WI
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Oldsfolks@aol.com>
> To: <rv-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 7:54 PM
> Subject: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES
>
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Oldsfolks@aol.com
> >
> > Boy !! ME TOO !!!
> > I hate fibreglas in any form but we have to suffer through it .
> > I finally found out about Ploy Fibre "Smooth Prime " ,after I had my
> > fingers bleeding just from sanding the parts the air sander couldn't
> > reach
> > !!
> > I really regretted not knowing about "Smooth Prime" sooner. A couple
> > of
> > coats , with easy sanding & it is done. NO PINHOLES !!!!!!!!
> > Try it - you'll like it.
> >
> > Bob Olds RV-4 , N1191X
> > A&P , EAA Tech. Counselor
> > Charleston,Arkansas
> > Real Aviators Fly Taildraggers
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
Try the New Netscape Mail Today!
Virtually Spam-Free | More Storage | Import Your Contact List
http://mail.netscape.com
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: General coment re instumentation |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins <mick-matronics@rv8.ch>
> You missed the point of my comment Skylor. I did not say that fuel was
> not "cheaper" in the US, I said that it was not "cheap".
> 3.50-4.50 per gallon in NOT cheap. I've been there and I know that it's
> more expensive in Europe, but that's because people there have even LESS
> control of government tax gouging than we do. I'm sure that they pay
> about the same wholesale price for oil that the US does but their
> governments add a LOT more taxes than ours does. That does NOT make our
> gas "cheap".
When I first moved here over 15 years ago I thought the same
thing. Then, after speaking to lots of people about things
like fuel prices and taxes and government, I've learned that
while fact many (majority?) Europeans do complain about the
high taxes on fuel, they see them as a necessary evil to
reduce their consumption, encourage alternative energy
development, and finance public transportation. Of course,
the major exception is in the UK, where many seem to distrust
their government, like in the USA. Perhaps that's where
we learned it.
Direct comparisons like this are very difficult, since
there are dozens of factors that are not always apparent.
Generally, Europeans don't rely on their cars as much as
Americans. Also, they are much more sensitive to
environmental issues.
Just as an aside, in Switzerland, the people have far more
control over their government than Americans have ever
dreamed of. Perhaps that's why they don't see their government
as the enemy, like we do.
--
Mickey Coggins
http://www.rv8.ch/
#82007 finishing
do not archive
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