---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 01/23/06: 38 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:42 AM - Re: I HATE PINHOLES (RAS) 2. 02:45 AM - Re: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES () 3. 03:24 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?=) 4. 04:23 AM - Re: Sensenich prop & not enough pitch? (Kevin Horton) 5. 05:11 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (N395V) 6. 05:31 AM - Re: Wingtip has twist (Richard Seiders) 7. 05:32 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Steve Eberhart) 8. 06:13 AM - Re: AeroElectric-List: MD200-306 VOR/ILS Indicator (Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR) 9. 06:49 AM - I HATE PINHOLES (James H Nelson) 10. 07:06 AM - Re: Re: AeroElectric-List: MD200-306 VOR/ILS Indicator (Pat Hatch) 11. 07:26 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray) 12. 07:51 AM - Re: Uncertified Artificial Horizon (Bruce Gray) 13. 08:06 AM - Re: Fuel tax, euros (James H Nelson) 14. 08:26 AM - Re: Wingtip has twist (Tim Bryan) 15. 08:40 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Ron Lee) 16. 09:01 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray) 17. 10:10 AM - Re: Artificial Horizon (Steve&Anita Nyman) 18. 10:15 AM - Re: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes (Vern W.) 19. 10:33 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Pat Hatch) 20. 11:14 AM - Re: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes (Mickey Coggins) 21. 11:44 AM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray) 22. 11:52 AM - Re: Artifical Horizon (Corey Crawford) 23. 12:31 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bruce Gray) 24. 01:38 PM - Re: Fuel tax, euros....off topic, delete now (you are fore warned) (LarryRobertHelming) 25. 03:36 PM - RV Wiki Featured Article (Tedd McHenry) 26. 05:22 PM - Re: Wingtip has twist (Jeff Dowling) 27. 05:25 PM - Re: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes (gert) 28. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes (Jeff Dowling) 29. 05:54 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Jeff Dowling) 30. 06:17 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Jerry Springer) 31. 07:08 PM - Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (N395V) 32. 07:11 PM - first real dimples (Dan) 33. 07:29 PM - Re: first real dimples (Dan Beadle) 34. 08:18 PM - "Excess" Energy use! (DEAN PSIROPOULOS) 35. 08:28 PM - Re: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified (Bill Schlatterer) 36. 09:12 PM - Re: first real dimples (Dave Nellis) 37. 09:39 PM - Re: "Excess" Energy use! (Mannan J. Thomason) 38. 10:14 PM - Shop Tool ? (Dan) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:18 AM PST US From: "RAS" Subject: Re: RV-List: I HATE PINHOLES --> RV-List message posted by: "RAS" Akzo Aerospace Finishes does a product called "static conditioner". It's a white milky thick liquid that is applied by brush in circular motions or by squeegee. Let it dry for about an hour and remove excess by scotchbrite. Do not use blown gun but use a tackrag. Then apply a coat of Laminar X500 surfacer which will seal in the static conditioner and provide a real hard surface to sand or paintprep on so that one doesn't sand into the fibers of the cloth. Maybe not cheap, but fast and effective. It's used among other on Boeing and Bombardier compositesamong other applications. The static conditioner is applied straight out of the tin, just stir before use. A litre of each should be sufficient for both cowlings and the roof (RV10) and wingtips If you use any other filler, make sure it's in near liquid state so that the product can be either forced into the pinhole or run into it. If not, the product will "bridge" the hole and when you ssand open up again, with the added bonus of eventually damaging the fibers by repeating the procedure a number of times. For effective filling, use a crosscoat system,similar to when you're spraying. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:45:48 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: RV-List: >Re: I HATE PINHOLES --> RV-List message posted by: > Jim, glad you made the statement about smooth prime not being wet sandable. > It is not wet sandable. It MUST be dry sanded as the directions on the can > state. > Larry's right. At the time I used it, I had the can and the instruction manual. Maybe it was assumed I'd dry sand. The instructions said nothing about it. Since we do a lot of wet sanding on RV's, that's what I did with the Smooth Prime. What scared me about the stuff was that it would raise in tiny bubbles while being sanded. Those would leave pock marks about the size of pin heads. I then tried dry sanding the stuff; but, I was afraid the lifting would also happen while paint was being applied. It's wet, also. I got rid of it and went with a fast fill primer, instead. If I ever build a glass airplane, I may try Smooth Prime, again; but, there's a very slim chance I'll build a glass airplane. In the meantime, I'll use the fast fill primer that matches the paint I'll be using. I just thought I'd let our folks know that not all are happy with the stuff. It does have drawbacks. Jim Sears in KY ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:13 AM PST US From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mich=E8le_Delsol?= Good thing this thread was not started in France - As a builder of a tin can airplane (RV8), I frequently engage in friendly arguments with wood/cloth airplanes such as Ministrel, Emeraude (from which the CAP 10 was derived) and plenty of others. There never is a winner but we have lots of fun battling things out. Michele RV8 - Fuselage PS would never build a plastic airplane or a match-stick/rags one. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JetPilot Sent: dimanche 22 janvier 2006 19:20 Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "JetPilot" The author of the origional thread has a very limited, narrow view of things. Just because something is "certified" does not make it better or safer. That kind of backwards thinking just hindres progress. And yes, having a moving map IS safer, as it increases situational awareness. There are many many dead people that have flown into terrain that would have lived had they had a moving map display. Failures of people are much more common than failures of moving map displays. For safety, I would take the best moving map display with terrain displayed over "certified" round dials and vacuum pumps any day. Vacuum pumps are famous for failing, their antique design is very limited and they fail more much more often than pizo-electric gyros. Only a complete moron with the inability to adapt to anything new would say something is safer just because it is "certified". Michael A. Bigelow -------- NO FEAR - If you have no fear you did not go as fast as you could have !!! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=5912#5912 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:23:11 AM PST US From: Kevin Horton Subject: Re: RV-List: Sensenich prop & not enough pitch? --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton On 22 Jan 2006, at 21:24, DAVE MADER wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVE MADER" > > After 20 hrs. on my newly completed rv6, I am undecided as to what > to do as > far as changing the pitch of my Sensenich fixed pitch prop. At > full throttle, > I am seeing 2850 rpm. and nearly 2450 static. I have an 0-360 with > 9.5 > compression pistons and supposedly it puts out close to 195 h.p. > The tach has > been checked with an optical tachometer and is accurate. The climb > rate right > now is close to 2000 fpm and top speed is over 210 mph. I like the > performance, just not sure I want to live with the higher rpms. I > know I can > throttle back to stay under red line, but am I then limiting my > horsepower? > Would my climb rate suffer much with more pitch? Anybody else had > this > situation and repitched? Just looking for some feedback. If you need to throttle back to keep the rpm where you want it, then you are sacrificing a lot of power. In this case, a bit more pitch should yield better cruise performance, as you would make more power in cruise with the higher throttle opening that you could use. The climb rate will decrease a bit, but it should still be quite acceptable. Given that you spend a lot more time in cruise than you do climbing, it may be worthwhile to sacrifice the climb to improve the cruise. Sensenich should be able to work with you to determine how much pitch change is needed. Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:11:03 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified From: "N395V" --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" > I'll take the promise of certification > over the words of a basement engineer any day. Yea, yea, I know, > electro-wizzies...... Below is a short BIO of Greg Richter of Blue Mountain one of those "basemant engineers" :) Richter is a graduate of Georgia Tech holding a Bachelor of Electrical Engineering and is a Grumman Aerospace scholar and a member of the IEEE. Richter has been involved in software, systems engineering, RF, analog and digital electronic design for over 20 years. 8) I have 2 BMA EFIS, 2 external comnavs, 1 alternator 2 batteries and a flight Cheetah 210 with solid state harddrive in my F1. I fly a lot of IFR when there is no chance of icing and no TSTMs. As I have 2 separate electro whizzie systems I do so with confidence and, in my mind, the same degree of safety I would have with a certified system or 3. The word certified to me instills no confidence the certification standards put out by the FAA are just as likely to have been developed by a lifelong anministrative engineer as by a techno geek. If you have been around long enough you have encountered "Certified "Flight Instructors, "Certified" mechanics, "Certified" Doctor's, etc,etc................... Some of whom are idiots. The key to safety is to have backup and to understand the limitations of the systems you are using. These electro whizzies have been around long enough to have a track record that "implies" they are safe and reliable. Now I must go and install some rear view mirrors on my Rocket so I can enjoy the look of awe on the face of Velocity drivers as I whizzzzzz by them. :P My next plane is going to be a plastic Radial Rocket with Bluemountain whizzies. I reallly the Glasairs but can't fit in one. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6085#6085 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:40 AM PST US From: Richard Seiders Subject: Re: RV-List: Wingtip has twist --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Seiders Tim, this is probably a dumb question, but did you trim the inner edge to fit? Dick At 05:16 PM 1/22/2006, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" > > > Hi Listers, looking for a bit of advice. My -6 wingtip appears to have a >bit of a twist in it preventing me from getting it installed as I would like > Here are the observed conditions. > - At the leading edge the wingtip is flat with the top of the wing. >- At the trailing edge the wingtip is flared up a bit. >- I have the wingtip nicely fit and clecoed into the top of the wing all >along it's edge. >- The wingtip fits snug into the leading edge of the wing >- As you travel back along the bottom of the join, the wingtip will not go >into the wing all the way. >- with considerable pressure you can twist it in about a 1/6th of an inch at >the most. > >The question: Can the wingtip be heated in enough of an area to allow me to >reshape it? What other suggestions might one have in this situation? > >Thanks for any help >Tim >N616TB Registerd, not flying - but soon > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:03 AM PST US From: Steve Eberhart Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Steve Eberhart Hi Bruce, I am building an RV-7A and really appreciate you coming over to our RV building list to try and save our lives. Are you doing this for all of the aircraft type specific mail lists? One can only hope so. There are so many lives to save and so little time to do it you must be a very busy man. So that you don't have to spend so much time participating in the hundreds of type specific mail lists, even though I am sure they all welcome your participation as much as we do, may I suggest you leave our group and hang out at the ExperimentalAvionics@yahoogroups.com mail list. That way you can have an audience of people interested in discussing experimental avionics. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your carefully thought out posts warning us of the perils of using experimental avionics and look forward to your participation in the ExperimentalAvionics@yahoogroups.com mail list. DO NOT ARCHIVE Steve Eberhart U.S. Air Force trained Instrument System Technician, Software Engineer, RV-7A builder Bruce Gray wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >Mr. Bigelow, > >I can assure you that my view of things are just as wide as yours. My >profession requires me often to think "outside the box". You may disagree >with some of my statements or ideas, but don't even try to denigrate my >intelligence. > >The new electronics coming on the market are great, I have 2 moving maps on >my panel (G530/430), well 3 actually if you count the EHSI. I never said >that certified was better, I said that certified implied that the product >had gone through a known level of testing and would deliver its specified >function. How long it would function (MTBF) was not addressed. Certification >implies that it will do what its supposed to do, no more. > >In my narrow world view of things, I'll take the promise of certification >over the words of a basement engineer any day. Yea, yea, I know, >electro-wizzies last 10,000 hours MTBF. There's a elegant engineering >principal that states, "The more complex solution is not as reliable as a >simple, low parts count solution". Or to put it another way, reliability is >inversely proportional to the parts count. > >One other thing, a properly maintained vacuum system is just as reliable as >your electro-whizzy. Wet oil pumps last 2-3,000 hours. And those vacuum >gyros just keep spinning when everything else goes dark. > >My Glasair III has vacuum and electric gyros, 2 compass systems, 2 >alternators, 2 vacuum systems and one battery. I fly a lot of hard IFR. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:40 AM PST US From: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Cc: "'RV-List'" Subject: RV-List: Re: AeroElectric-List: MD200-306 VOR/ILS Indicator --> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Dean, The MD200-306 has internal lighting. But one gottcha.... Be sure that you don't put a dimmer circuit on it as it also has it's own internal dimmer... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 525 Hrs in 2.5 Years... --> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" < dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net > I have a VOR/ILS indicator made by Mid Content Instruments (MD200-306) and I am trying to figure out if it is lighted internally or if I need to supply some sort of lighting. The (Spartan) instruction manual shows lighting connections but I'm not sure if they are for the annunciator lights or for full facial lighting. Those who've used this instrument in your panels, do you remember if it is internally lit or will I need to supply post lights or something similar? I emailed Mid Content Instruments several days ago about this but apparently their entire technical support department is on an extended vacation! Thanks for all the help. Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Panel ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:51 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: I HATE PINHOLES From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Kevin, I believe that Poly Fiber provides a measuring device to get the correct blend. I used a paint mixer on my drill to mix it completely. Then washed it off to keep it clean. If you don't, it hardens and you have to scrape it off. :-(( I did my applications in small batches to keep it from getting hard while applying. I used Home despot for trays and rollers to put the smooth prime on. Jim ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:52 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: AeroElectric-List: MD200-306 VOR/ILS Indicator --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Fred, My pinout diagram for the MD200-306 shows that pin #23 goes to the 14 volt dimmer, pin # 22 goes to either a 28 volt dimmer or to ground in the case of a 14 volt dimmer. Pin # 19 is for 14 v input and pin # 21 is the power ground. I wired mine this way and it dims very nicely with the dimmer circuit. I was not aware that it had an internal dimmer as well. Can you clarify? Documentation is sparse but I do have the pinout if anyone needs a copy. Pat Hatch RV-6 RV-7 --> RV-List message posted by: "Stucklen, Frederic W UTPWR" Dean, The MD200-306 has internal lighting. But one gottcha.... Be sure that you don't put a dimmer circuit on it as it also has it's own internal dimmer... Fred Stucklen RV-6A N926RV 525 Hrs in 2.5 Years... ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:55 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. If not, there's always the 'cat and duck' method of IFR flying. For those not familure with the 'cat and duck' method, here's a description, THE CAT & DUCK METHOD OF IFR FLYING: Today's flight age is an era highlighted with increasing emphasis on safety. Instrumentation in the cockpit and in the traffic control tower has reached new peaks of electronic perfection to assist the pilot during take-offs , flight , and landings. For whimsical contrast to these and other marvels of scientific flight engineering , it is perhaps opportune to remind pilots of the basic rules concerning the so-called Cat-and-Duck Method of Flight , just in case something goes wrong with any of these new- fangled flying instruments you find in today's aircraft. Place a live cat on the cockpit floor. Because a cat always remains upright , he or she can be used in lieu of a needle and ball. Merely watch to see which way the cat leans to determine if a wing is low and , if so , which one. The duck is used for the instrument approach and landing. Because any sensible duck will refuse to fly under instrument conditions, it is only necessary to hurl your duck out of the plane and follow her to the ground. There are some limitations to the Cat-and-Duck Method, but by rigidly adhering to the following check list , a degree of success will be achieved. 1. Get a wide-awake cat. Most cats do not want to stand up at all, at any time. It may be necessary to get a large fierce dog in the cockpit to keep the cat at attention. 2. Make sure your cat is clean. Dirty cats will spend all their time washing. Trying to follow a cat licking itself usually results in a tight snap roll, followed by an inverted (or flat) spin. You can see this is very unsanitary. 3. Old cats are best. Young cats have nine lives, but an old used-up cat with only one life left has just as much to lose an you do and will therefore be more dependable. 4. Beware of cowardly ducks. If the duck discovers that you are using the cat to stay upright - or straight and level- she will refuse to leave without the cat. Ducks are no better on instruments than you are. 5. Be sure the duck has good eyesight. Nearsighted ducks sometimes will go flogging off into the nearest hill. Very short-sighted ducks will not realize they have been thrown out and will descend to the ground in a sitting position. This maneuver is quite difficult to follow in an airplane. 6. Use land-loving ducks. It is very discouraging to break out and find yourself on final approach for some farm pound in Iowa. Also, the farmers there suffer from temporary insanity when chasing crows off their corn fields and will shoot anything that flies. 7. Choose your duck carefully. It is easy to confuse ducks with geese because many water birds look alike. While they are very competent instrument flyers , geese seldom want to go in the same direction you do. If your duck heads off for the Okefenokee Swamp, you may be sure you have been given the goose. From: http://www.anvari.org/shortjoke/Aviation/1404.html Keep your sense of humor, guys. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Eberhart Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 8:32 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Steve Eberhart Hi Bruce, I am building an RV-7A and really appreciate you coming over to our RV building list to try and save our lives. Are you doing this for all of the aircraft type specific mail lists? One can only hope so. There are so many lives to save and so little time to do it you must be a very busy man. So that you don't have to spend so much time participating in the hundreds of type specific mail lists, even though I am sure they all welcome your participation as much as we do, may I suggest you leave our group and hang out at the ExperimentalAvionics@yahoogroups.com mail list. That way you can have an audience of people interested in discussing experimental avionics. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for all of your carefully thought out posts warning us of the perils of using experimental avionics and look forward to your participation in the ExperimentalAvionics@yahoogroups.com mail list. DO NOT ARCHIVE Steve Eberhart U.S. Air Force trained Instrument System Technician, Software Engineer, RV-7A builder Bruce Gray wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >Mr. Bigelow, > >I can assure you that my view of things are just as wide as yours. My >profession requires me often to think "outside the box". You may disagree >with some of my statements or ideas, but don't even try to denigrate my >intelligence. > >The new electronics coming on the market are great, I have 2 moving maps on >my panel (G530/430), well 3 actually if you count the EHSI. I never said >that certified was better, I said that certified implied that the product >had gone through a known level of testing and would deliver its specified >function. How long it would function (MTBF) was not addressed. Certification >implies that it will do what its supposed to do, no more. > >In my narrow world view of things, I'll take the promise of certification >over the words of a basement engineer any day. Yea, yea, I know, >electro-wizzies last 10,000 hours MTBF. There's a elegant engineering >principal that states, "The more complex solution is not as reliable as a >simple, low parts count solution". Or to put it another way, reliability is >inversely proportional to the parts count. > >One other thing, a properly maintained vacuum system is just as reliable as >your electro-whizzy. Wet oil pumps last 2-3,000 hours. And those vacuum >gyros just keep spinning when everything else goes dark. > >My Glasair III has vacuum and electric gyros, 2 compass systems, 2 >alternators, 2 vacuum systems and one battery. I fly a lot of hard IFR. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:05 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List:Uncertified Artificial Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" You're preaching to the choir, Rob. I have your AOA Pro in my airplane. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RobHickman@aol.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 2:19 PM Subject: Re: RV-List:Uncertified Artificial Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: RobHickman@aol.com In a message dated 1/22/2006 6:12:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, Bruce@glasair.org writes: If all these manufacturers were so damn sure their products would pass, why didn't they test and certify them? It would give them a leg up on the competition. Bruce, The reason that manufacturers don't do it is that it costs a huge amount of money and once you do it limits your ability to make improvements to the product. We have been in the middle of certifying the AOA for over three years now. We have passed DO-160 testing and we should have our first STC in the spring. It has cost well over $75,000 to get it certified. We have made a number of improvements to the AOA since we started certification and we currently=20are selling the AOA Sport 3. The certified AOA Sport 1 unit that we could start selling this summer is 3 generations old and is not as good as the one that we make today, but it will be =E2=80=9CCertified=E2=80=9D. The paper work=20alone will add a major amount of cost to each unit that we sell and to be honest most people are not willing to pay for it. You forgot the really big benefit that you get once you start selling a certified product. You are assured that you will be sued for every airplane crash no madder what caused it. We currently have a customer that wants to install a large number of AOA=E2=80=99s in Cessna Caravans. They have three Caravans flying with the AOA and =E2=80=9Cmust have it=E2=80=9D. You would not even believe the conversations I have had with my insurance company over this one=E2=80=A6. Cessna, Cirrus, ect=E2=80=A6 would tell you exactly the same thing about=20airframes as you have said about avionics. There is no way that Lancair, Vans, or Glassair have done the paper work and testing that the certified manufactures have had to do. Does this automatically mean that a new RV-10 is not as=20safe as a Cirrus? I don=E2=80=99t think so, and I can=E2=80=99t wait to load my family in my RV-10 with my uncertified EFIS , Engine Monitor, and AOA. I would also argue that my RV-10 will be safer because of them. Every year I have someone stop by the booth and tell me that our uncertified product has saved their life. How many people would not be here today if they had waited to install a certified instrument? How much higher would the insurance that you pay be? I would bet that way more lives are saved because of affordable, uncertified avionics. Rob Hickman Advanced Flight Systems ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:16 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel tax, euros From: James H Nelson --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson Dean, How did you get so smart? Most people have no clue on the macro level. Their day to day is their only reference. If you could tax your self to prosperity, why haven't we got there. When taxes go down, the economy picks up---- How can that be???? Jim Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:26:42 AM PST US From: "Tim Bryan" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wingtip has twist --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" Hi Dick, Yes, I had to trim the inner edge of the bottom because it was hitting the rib. I trimmed about 3/16". Now it doesn't hit but still won't go in. I can warp a little with my hands but not near enough to do any good. I had to trim quite a bit on the right wing tip but in the end it went in and together. Didn't notice any warping in it and it was pretty flat accross the top of wingtip / wing. -------Original Message------- From: Richard Seiders Subject: Re: RV-List: Wingtip has twist --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Seiders Tim, this is probably a dumb question, but did you trim the inner edge to fit? Dick At 05:16 PM 1/22/2006, you wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" > > > Hi Listers, looking for a bit of advice. My -6 wingtip appears to have a >bit of a twist in it preventing me from getting it installed as I would like > Here are the observed conditions. > - At the leading edge the wingtip is flat with the top of the wing. >- At the trailing edge the wingtip is flared up a bit. >- I have the wingtip nicely fit and clecoed into the top of the wing all >along it's edge. >- The wingtip fits snug into the leading edge of the wing >- As you travel back along the bottom of the join, the wingtip will not go >into the wing all the way. >- with considerable pressure you can twist it in about a 1/6th of an inch at >the most. > >The question: Can the wingtip be heated in enough of an area to allow me to >reshape it? What other suggestions might one have in this situation? > >Thanks for any help >Tim >N616TB Registerd, not flying - but soon > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:09 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you >guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. I don't know that people leave this list because of disagreements. Personally I take grief for flying high whereas other RV pilots fly closer to the ground. A recent close encounter with a Cessna at 9500' (low in my book) just reinforces my belief that it is safer higher. I do have a question about the Dynon system. Some say that it is acceptable for use in IFR flight. Is there anything in writing that confirms that assertion? I also am of the impression that the issue of certified or not is not that important. Look at the NTSB accident reports and see the boneheaded, Darwin-tempting things that pilots do that kill themselves and others. If you want to reduce accidents, figure out how to keep pilots from making STUPID decisions that result in fatalities. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:01:16 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Thank you Ron. I thought that was what I was trying to do. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you >guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. I don't know that people leave this list because of disagreements. Personally I take grief for flying high whereas other RV pilots fly closer to the ground. A recent close encounter with a Cessna at 9500' (low in my book) just reinforces my belief that it is safer higher. I do have a question about the Dynon system. Some say that it is acceptable for use in IFR flight. Is there anything in writing that confirms that assertion? I also am of the impression that the issue of certified or not is not that important. Look at the NTSB accident reports and see the boneheaded, Darwin-tempting things that pilots do that kill themselves and others. If you want to reduce accidents, figure out how to keep pilots from making STUPID decisions that result in fatalities. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:10:01 AM PST US From: "Steve&Anita Nyman" Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve&Anita Nyman" I stand corrected. I had forgotten about the AHRS. You would think I would remember, since I sent mine in to have that problem fixed. The failure manifests itself during power-up so that you know you have a problem before you ever leave the ground. Steve N174AS MEM do not archive Time: 08:42:39 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" No, they don't. The software is the same, the hardware is not. Take for example the AHRS, the certified units use the Crossbow 500 series or better, the non-certified units use the Crossbow 400 series. The 400 series has just been flagged by a Crossbow SB as VFR use only. They found a few software bugs they have to iron out. The 400 series AHRS are not certified. FMI: http://www.xbow.com/Support/Support_pdf_files/Service_Letter_NAV425.pdf Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve&Anita Nyman Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 10:38 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve&Anita Nyman" < Sure the companies make some rudimentary tests but nothing like the full DO178 compliant tests required of certificated electro-whizzys.>> Chelton did. They use the same hardware and software in systems they sell to the experimental market. Steve N174AS MEM do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:15:56 AM PST US From: "Vern W." Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes --> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." Kevin, You mention doing the canopy upside down... I was under the impression that the canopy had to/should be glued on the aircraft with the frame and canopy in the closed position in order to insure that no twist or movement will screw up the final fit (and yes, I thought that might be a bit problematic). So if you glue the canopy to the frame off the aircraft, how do you make sure it stays aligned as it should? Vern On 1/22/06, Kevin Hester wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester > kevinh-unfiltered@sneakyfrog.com > > * The clear sika prep fluid will slightly roughen any plexi that it is > allowed to sit on for an extended time. Either use masking to protect > against this (particularly when doing the canopy frame with the plexy > upside down over the table) or when you screw up wipe up excess with a > paper towel. It is a very slight effect but noticeable if you look at > the right angle. Kevin > > ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:00 AM PST US From: "Pat Hatch" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Hey Bruce, you have been a valued contributor to this list for a long time...and I note that you have shown no bias towards glass airplanes. I appreciate that and would urge you not to take these flame jobs personally. Occasionally we all say something that is either misinterpreted or too controversial for intelligent debate--just slough it off and move on. Keep your sense of humor and your point of view. Pat Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Thank you Ron. I thought that was what I was trying to do. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you >guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. I don't know that people leave this list because of disagreements. Personally I take grief for flying high whereas other RV pilots fly closer to the ground. A recent close encounter with a Cessna at 9500' (low in my book) just reinforces my belief that it is safer higher. I do have a question about the Dynon system. Some say that it is acceptable for use in IFR flight. Is there anything in writing that confirms that assertion? I also am of the impression that the issue of certified or not is not that important. Look at the NTSB accident reports and see the boneheaded, Darwin-tempting things that pilots do that kill themselves and others. If you want to reduce accidents, figure out how to keep pilots from making STUPID decisions that result in fatalities. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:14:55 AM PST US From: Mickey Coggins Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes --> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins I used some of the scrap canopy track to make a mount on my workbench. You can see what I did in some of these pictures: http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20050617213651709 If I could do it again, I'd use some dabs of Sikaflex to "tack" the canopy to the frame, and then turn the whole thing upside down to finish it off. Mickey Vern W. wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." > > Kevin, > You mention doing the canopy upside down... I was under the impression that > the canopy had to/should be glued on the aircraft with the frame and canopy > in the closed position in order to insure that no twist or movement will > screw up the final fit (and yes, I thought that might be a bit problematic). > > So if you glue the canopy to the frame off the aircraft, how do you make > sure it stays aligned as it should? > > Vern > > > On 1/22/06, Kevin Hester wrote: > >>--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester >>kevinh-unfiltered@sneakyfrog.com >> >>* The clear sika prep fluid will slightly roughen any plexi that it is >>allowed to sit on for an extended time. Either use masking to protect >>against this (particularly when doing the canopy frame with the plexy >>upside down over the table) or when you screw up wipe up excess with a >>paper towel. It is a very slight effect but noticeable if you look at >>the right angle. > -- Mickey Coggins http://www.rv8.ch/ #82007 finishing ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:44:57 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Thanks, I refuse to believe that anyone who can built one of these kits, be they plastic or aluminum, is dumb or stupid. Perhaps they are unenlightened to the finer points of the argument or my word choice was insufficient to convey the mental image needed to make their light bulb fire. I guess I'll just have to try harder (groan from all). Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pat Hatch Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 1:32 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Pat Hatch" Hey Bruce, you have been a valued contributor to this list for a long time...and I note that you have shown no bias towards glass airplanes. I appreciate that and would urge you not to take these flame jobs personally. Occasionally we all say something that is either misinterpreted or too controversial for intelligent debate--just slough it off and move on. Keep your sense of humor and your point of view. Pat Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Gray Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 12:01 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" Thank you Ron. I thought that was what I was trying to do. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you >guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. I don't know that people leave this list because of disagreements. Personally I take grief for flying high whereas other RV pilots fly closer to the ground. A recent close encounter with a Cessna at 9500' (low in my book) just reinforces my belief that it is safer higher. I do have a question about the Dynon system. Some say that it is acceptable for use in IFR flight. Is there anything in writing that confirms that assertion? I also am of the impression that the issue of certified or not is not that important. Look at the NTSB accident reports and see the boneheaded, Darwin-tempting things that pilots do that kill themselves and others. If you want to reduce accidents, figure out how to keep pilots from making STUPID decisions that result in fatalities. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:19 AM PST US From: Corey Crawford Subject: Re: RV-List: Artifical Horizon --> RV-List message posted by: Corey Crawford I know this isn't a solid-state instrument, but I ran into this electric, battery backed-up gyro in a blurb in AOPA Pilot: http://www.lifesavergyro.com/ They also have a mini electric gyro: http://www.mcico.com/master1.html?whatsnew.html&1 Thought it might interest someone.. -- Corey Crawford corey.crawford@gmail.com Building an RV-7A in Denver, CO ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:31:54 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" I don't mind the disagreements. What I don't like is when others, who are struggling to counter my statements, resort to personal attacks. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:39 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, you >guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. I don't know that people leave this list because of disagreements. Personally I take grief for flying high whereas other RV pilots fly closer to the ground. A recent close encounter with a Cessna at 9500' (low in my book) just reinforces my belief that it is safer higher. I do have a question about the Dynon system. Some say that it is acceptable for use in IFR flight. Is there anything in writing that confirms that assertion? I also am of the impression that the issue of certified or not is not that important. Look at the NTSB accident reports and see the boneheaded, Darwin-tempting things that pilots do that kill themselves and others. If you want to reduce accidents, figure out how to keep pilots from making STUPID decisions that result in fatalities. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:38:19 PM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel tax, euros....off topic, delete now (you are fore warned) --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" do not archive. ----- Original Message ----- > --> RV-List message posted by: James H Nelson > > Dean, > How did you get so smart? Most people have no clue on the macro > level. Their day to day is their only reference. If you could tax your > self to prosperity, why haven't we got there. When taxes go down, the > economy picks up---- How can that be???? > > Jim > How can that be? you ask. Well the gov't counts the Gross Domestic Product output. When the gov't doesn't take a bite out of everything, there is more for everyone to work with AND the big thing is the gov't , regardless if it has the income or not, will spend money just the same. So, if they don't tax, the economy is better. Our debt is just greater because of the deficeit. The best thing someone smarter than me suggested was to reelect not one of our office holers going to Washington, DC at election time. That would set a new tone for the ones going there. Imagine if there was no old pros to lead the newly elected around and show them how things are done. Wow. They might work for the people rather than their party or themselves. Imagine that!! Of course I can vote for whoever is running against the incumbents from Indiana without any problem. But the problem is some state such as Mass. (or some other state) will relect their pro and it just will not work. This has to be a national thing and regardless of how good our imcumbent is, we MUST NOT reelect them. I am not holding my breath that this will ever happen. Indiana Larry > Do Not Archive > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:42 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: RV-List: RV Wiki Featured Article --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry Rob Prior has written an excellent article for the RV Wiki in which he compiles information from many posts to the RV List on the subject of gluing canopies. http://www.rvwiki.org/index.php?title=Gluing_Your_Canopy As always, you are welcome to improve this article any way you can, such as by adding further information or pictures, or even just by correcting any typos you notice. You'll find quick instructions on editing an article here, http://www.rvwiki.org/index.php?title=Quick_Page_Editing_Instructions and more detailed instructions here, http://www.rvwiki.org/index.php?title=Help:Edit --- Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:22:43 PM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Wingtip has twist --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Look at Dan's website, he has a good photo of his "hi-tech" solution. http://www.rvproject.com/index.html Lot of good info there. I just noticed he's a contributing editor to Kitplanes. Who knew? Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Bryan" Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: RV-List: Wingtip has twist > --> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" > > > Hi Listers, looking for a bit of advice. My -6 wingtip appears to have a > bit of a twist in it preventing me from getting it installed as I would > like > Here are the observed conditions. > - At the leading edge the wingtip is flat with the top of the wing. > - At the trailing edge the wingtip is flared up a bit. > - I have the wingtip nicely fit and clecoed into the top of the wing all > along it's edge. > - The wingtip fits snug into the leading edge of the wing > - As you travel back along the bottom of the join, the wingtip will not go > into the wing all the way. > - with considerable pressure you can twist it in about a 1/6th of an inch > at > the most. > > The question: Can the wingtip be heated in enough of an area to allow me > to > reshape it? What other suggestions might one have in this situation? > > Thanks for any help > Tim > N616TB Registerd, not flying - but soon > > > ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:25:16 PM PST US From: gert Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes --> RV-List message posted by: gert tacking is the way to go, it lets u make a much nicer finish on the glue beads, is what the Sika guys recommended when i called them. Mickey Coggins wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: Mickey Coggins > >I used some of the scrap canopy track to make a mount >on my workbench. You can see what I did in some of >these pictures: > > http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20050617213651709 > >If I could do it again, I'd use some dabs of Sikaflex >to "tack" the canopy to the frame, and then turn the >whole thing upside down to finish it off. > >Mickey > >Vern W. wrote: > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." >> >>Kevin, >>You mention doing the canopy upside down... I was under the impression that >>the canopy had to/should be glued on the aircraft with the frame and canopy >>in the closed position in order to insure that no twist or movement will >>screw up the final fit (and yes, I thought that might be a bit problematic). >> >>So if you glue the canopy to the frame off the aircraft, how do you make >>sure it stays aligned as it should? >> >>Vern >> >> >>On 1/22/06, Kevin Hester wrote: >> >> >> >>>--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester >>>kevinh-unfiltered@sneakyfrog.com >>> >>>* The clear sika prep fluid will slightly roughen any plexi that it is >>>allowed to sit on for an extended time. Either use masking to protect >>>against this (particularly when doing the canopy frame with the plexy >>>upside down over the table) or when you screw up wipe up excess with a >>>paper towel. It is a very slight effect but noticeable if you look at >>>the right angle. >>> >>> > > > -- is subject to a download and archival fee in the amount of $500 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:52 PM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Hey Kevin, timing is everything. Im planning on removing my poorly fit aluminum canopy fairing and replacing with fiberglass. Any tips? i.e. How many layups of what oz cloth, pitfalls... tia Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Hester" Cc: "Gerry Filby" Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Gluing canopies - a few more notes > --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Hester > > > Hi, > > Various other posters have already covered most points, but since I've > done the adhesive canopy thing I'd like to add a few notes: > > * Thanks to Chalkie for getting this great idea started with his Sport > Aviation article > * Sika is a bit of a pain to work with, but no where nearly as nasty as > proseal. If I had it to do over again, there's no way I'd even > consider using pop rivets. > * I really like that with Sika your canopy mates right up with your > windscreen - no need to make the fiberglass lip > * Before applying the black primer to the plexi, be very careful about > masking (duh) > * Rough up the rollbar powdercoat pretty good before applying the sika > prep clear fluid to it. > * Also apply masking tape to the rollbar where you don't want any sika > to stick. > * The clear sika prep fluid will slightly roughen any plexi that it is > allowed to sit on for an extended time. Either use masking to protect > against this (particularly when doing the canopy frame with the plexy > upside down over the table) or when you screw up wipe up excess with a > paper towel. It is a very slight effect but noticeable if you look at > the right angle. > * Although Sika says it is dry within a day(?), it really takes a few > weeks before it is as strong as it is ever going to be. When I did > some test pieces I was initially a bit concerned with the strength of > the bond but two weeks later it reached the point where I was breaking > plexy before sika would come off. (Not a very scientific test though). > * Use this 'slow dry' property to your advantage - if you need to > mechanically remove any sika that squeezes past masking tape, it is > much easier to do this the day after the lay-up than a week later. > * I had one helper for the actual bonding day of the windscreen to the > rollbar, I'd recommend two helpers. ;-) > * If you are doing sika, you probably want to make your aft skirt out > of fiberglass rather than aluminum. The fiberglass skirt only takes a > day to make and you can bond it with sika as well - no pop rivets > through the plexi and the frame. > * Like anything - doing it the first time takes _much_ longer. If you > can find someone local who's done it, buy em with beer to come help on > windscreen bonding day (canopy bonding is way easier). I'm happy to > help any SF Bay Area builder who decides to go this way... > > (I think the current GLO custom photos on the VAF homepage show my > crummy masking job - fortunately Sika is paintable (and Grady friggen > rocks), so I've now decided that my rollbar should be black to match > the top of my plane) > > Kevin > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:39 PM PST US From: "Jeff Dowling" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Jeff Dowling" Hey Milt, what do you think about the Flight Cheetah? Shemp/Jeff Dowling RV-6A, N915JD 235 hours Chicago/Louisville ----- Original Message ----- From: "N395V" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:10 AM Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified > --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" > > >> I'll take the promise of certification >> over the words of a basement engineer any day. Yea, yea, I know, >> electro-wizzies...... > > > Below is a short BIO of Greg Richter of Blue Mountain one of those > "basemant engineers" :) > > Richter is a graduate of Georgia Tech holding a Bachelor of Electrical > Engineering and is a Grumman Aerospace scholar and a member of the IEEE. > Richter has been involved in software, systems engineering, RF, analog and > digital electronic design for over 20 years. 8) > > I have 2 BMA EFIS, 2 external comnavs, 1 alternator 2 batteries and a > flight Cheetah 210 with solid state harddrive in my F1. I fly a lot of IFR > when there is no chance of icing and no TSTMs. > > As I have 2 separate electro whizzie systems I do so with confidence and, > in my mind, the same degree of safety I would have with a certified system > or 3. > > The word certified to me instills no confidence the certification > standards put out by the FAA are just as likely to have been developed by > a lifelong anministrative engineer as by a techno geek. > > If you have been around long enough you have encountered "Certified > "Flight Instructors, "Certified" mechanics, "Certified" Doctor's, > etc,etc................... > > Some of whom are idiots. > > The key to safety is to have backup and to understand the limitations of > the systems you are using. These electro whizzies have been around long > enough to have a track record that "implies" they are safe and reliable. > > Now I must go and install some rear view mirrors on my Rocket so I can > enjoy the look of awe on the face of Velocity drivers as I whizzzzzz by > them. :P > > > My next plane is going to be a plastic Radial Rocket with Bluemountain > whizzies. I reallly the Glasairs but can't fit in one. > > -------- > Milt > N395V > F1 Rocket > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6085#6085 > > > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:17:53 PM PST US From: Jerry Springer Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: Jerry Springer Bruce Gray wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" > >I don't mind the disagreements. What I don't like is when others, who are >struggling to counter my statements, resort to personal attacks. > >Bruce >www.glasair.org > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ron Lee >Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:39 AM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified > > >--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" >> >>I can see the reasons that the RV list has a reputation for driving out >>those brave souls who don't blindly follow the group mindset. Good luck, >> >> >you > > >>guys. I hope all have a sound backup plan. >> >> Bruce you have been a good contributor to this list for a long time, I enjoy reading your posts. I also agree with you. It is amazing to me how many people that have the "electronic gizmo's" also have some type of steam gauge. When asked why both it is always the same answer, "JUST IN CASE." :-) Jerry ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:08:36 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified From: "N395V" --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" shempdowling2(at)earthlin wrote: > Hey Milt, what do you think about the Flight Cheetah?- Just got it put in so havn't used it a lot. I have been running the same software (True Map) on a tablet and really love it. Provides great weather, moving map, and airway info and easy rapid access to approach plates. Now with a solid state HD I can go up into the low teen Flight Levels without crunching my harddrive. The actual flight Cheetah is quicker and easier to use as all it is is a flight instrument and not a multi purpose computer. It was a real struggle to pick between the 396 and Cheetah but I really needed an EFB type solution to charts and approach plates. The 396 just didn't provide that. The short answer to your question is I think it is terrific. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6336#6336 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:01 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: RV-List: first real dimples --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Ok I am just now setting my first real dimples in the HS spars and ribs, pneumatic squeezer, do I want to see the slight ring imprint also ,? or am I just a little deep ? How about when I get to the skin ?? Thanks all,., Dan Hatch -8 QB N728RV Reserved and gettin on a roll ! ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:26 PM PST US From: "Dan Beadle" Subject: RE: RV-List: first real dimples --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Beadle" I overdid the dimpling on my first try. I used a lot of pressure. TOO MUCH. What you want is to have the dies just touch the surface. In my case, the excessive pressure caused the holes to expand, making a cleco not hold well. Another test is to insert an AN426 rivet. The top of the rivet should be flush with the skin. And the mating part, the spar or rib, should be dimpled enough to accept the skin without visible separation. Hope this helps. Dan -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 7:11 PM Subject: RV-List: first real dimples --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Ok I am just now setting my first real dimples in the HS spars and ribs, pneumatic squeezer, do I want to see the slight ring imprint also ,? or am I just a little deep ? How about when I get to the skin ?? Thanks all,., Dan Hatch -8 QB N728RV Reserved and gettin on a roll ! ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:12 PM PST US From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Subject: RV-List: "Excess" Energy use! --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Excuse me Skylor but......WHO ARE YOU (or George Bush or Tony Blair or the enviro wackos, etc) TO DECDIDE WHETHER I'M USING "EXCESS" ENERGY?? This stupid argument (one of those lies told enough times that people now believe it) REALLY STICKS IN MY CRAW. Seventy years ago, in the 1930s, there were people who said we'd run out of oil in 20 years, I believe the same argument was ONE of the arguments used during the Arab oil embargo in 1973 and it's now 33 years after that. If we all bought tiny Honda Insights and shoehorned our American rear ends into them AND conserved as much as we possibly could....WE WOULD SAVE ONLY A FEW PERCENT OVER WHAT WE USE TODAY! WE WOULD STILL EVENTUALLY RUN OUT OF OIL!!!!! WE WOULD STILL EVENTUALLY HAVE TO FIND NEW SOURCES OF ENERGY!!! So WHY prolong the agony by mandating "conservation" (postage stamp size cars that make us miserable on the road) and by placing even more taxes on ourselves (you leftists realize this one hurts the poor and fixed income people the most don't you, or does helping the poor only consist of buying votes through the TRANSFER of wealth)? Don't get me wrong, I want to wean ourselves from Middle East oil as much as the next guy, I just don't think taxing the poor (or the rich) and forcing us all to buy micro size two seat cars is the way to do it! Don't kid yourself, the European's higher energy taxes aren't going away just because we find that magic source of unlimited energy. The politicians and the "fun police" will just find new excuses to apply them to the new energy source (have you heard of the latest fad... a new tax especially for hybrid cars because they pay less in gasoline taxes). Why not let nature run its course and economics do the work? Look for all the oil we can find and if it starts to run out, let the law of supply and demand drive up prices to the point where the incentives are there to visit alternate energy sources (we're fast approaching that point guys, without government "assistance" in the form of higher taxes thank you very much, so get your money ready to invest in alternate sources). In the USA the enviro wackos are using pollution and global warming scare tactics to artificially SUPPRESS the local supply of oil (and Coal and Natural Gas), who knows how much we'd have if we could explore everywhere. If you feel so guilty about using so much oil, sell your RV (it only gets 20 MPG) AND your SUVs and try traveling cross country in an Insight, you'll need the money you get from the RV to pay the chiropracter. BTW Skylor, this is NOT a personal attack on you. I'm just trying to make a point and dispel some of that energy GUILT trip that the special interest groups, the politicians and the press (yes the press Charlie) have been trying to lay on ALL OF US since before I was old enough to drive! Dean Psiropoulos RV-6A N197DM Uses as much oil as he wants and doesn't feel guilty about it (but does feel it in the wallet like everyone else and does NOT like the fact that it may be going to support radical Islam)! Do not archive --------------Original message--------------- > RV-List message posted by: Skylor Piper > I do believe that if gas prices in the US have been as expensive as >Europe for the last 30 years, Americans my not be so complacent about >excess energy consumption. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:47 PM PST US From: "Bill Schlatterer" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" This is obviously uncertified but might make a backup unit? Does anyone have any experience with these Stratomaster Units? At $875 they aren't much more than a T&B? http://www.sportflyingshop.com/Instr/Stratomaster/SmartSingles/AttitudeIndic ators/attitudeindicators.html Bill S 7a Ark -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of N395V Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: RV-List: Re: Artificial Horizon Uncertified --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" shempdowling2(at)earthlin wrote: > Hey Milt, what do you think about the Flight Cheetah?- Just got it put in so havn't used it a lot. I have been running the same software (True Map) on a tablet and really love it. Provides great weather, moving map, and airway info and easy rapid access to approach plates. Now with a solid state HD I can go up into the low teen Flight Levels without crunching my harddrive. The actual flight Cheetah is quicker and easier to use as all it is is a flight instrument and not a multi purpose computer. It was a real struggle to pick between the 396 and Cheetah but I really needed an EFB type solution to charts and approach plates. The 396 just didn't provide that. The short answer to your question is I think it is terrific. -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=6336#6336 ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 09:12:47 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: first real dimples --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis The slight imprint is good and is not a problem. It means the die has fully depressed the dimple. If, outside that ring,you see bulging, it is too much pressure. Dave --- Dan wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: Dan > > Ok I am just now setting my first real dimples in > the HS spars and ribs, > pneumatic squeezer, do I want to see the slight > ring imprint also ,? or am I just a little deep ? > How about when I get to the skin ?? > Thanks all,., > > Dan Hatch > -8 QB > N728RV Reserved > > and gettin on a roll ! > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:35 PM PST US From: "Mannan J. Thomason" Subject: Re: RV-List: "Excess" Energy use! --> RV-List message posted by: "Mannan J. Thomason" Yea Dean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Tell em' like it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm tired of being politically correct. Drill for oil in ANWR. Let the Carabou (sp?) adapt. (Like the deer I have to dodge every night on the way home). Alternate energy will surface as the oil supply depletes. As you said, Governments will find a way to tax that too as it evolves. Thomas Jefferson wrote that Governments should be overthrown every 20 years. I'm not sure how he meant that. I would think that at least he meant that we shouldn't vote for any encumbent political office holder. (Chapaquidic Teddy for example.) Mannan Thomason DO NOT ARCHIVE ----- Original Message ----- From: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 11:16 PM Subject: RV-List: "Excess" Energy use! > --> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" > > > Excuse me Skylor but......WHO ARE YOU (or George Bush or Tony Blair or the > enviro wackos, etc) TO DECDIDE WHETHER I'M USING "EXCESS" ENERGY?? This > stupid argument (one of those lies told enough times that people now > believe > it) REALLY STICKS IN MY CRAW. Seventy years ago, in the 1930s, there were > people who said we'd run out of oil in 20 years, I believe the same > argument > was ONE of the arguments used during the Arab oil embargo in 1973 and it's > now 33 years after that. If we all bought tiny Honda Insights and > shoehorned our American rear ends into them AND conserved as much as we > possibly could....WE WOULD SAVE ONLY A FEW PERCENT OVER WHAT WE USE TODAY! > WE WOULD STILL EVENTUALLY RUN OUT OF OIL!!!!! WE WOULD STILL EVENTUALLY > HAVE TO FIND NEW SOURCES OF ENERGY!!! So WHY prolong the agony by > mandating > "conservation" (postage stamp size cars that make us miserable on the > road) > and by placing even more taxes on ourselves (you leftists realize this one > hurts the poor and fixed income people the most don't you, or does helping > the poor only consist of buying votes through the TRANSFER of wealth)? > Don't get me wrong, I want to wean ourselves from Middle East oil as much > as > the next guy, I just don't think taxing the poor (or the rich) and forcing > us all to buy micro size two seat cars is the way to do it! > > Don't kid yourself, the European's higher energy taxes aren't going away > just because we find that magic source of unlimited energy. The > politicians > and the "fun police" will just find new excuses to apply them to the new > energy source (have you heard of the latest fad... a new tax especially > for > hybrid cars because they pay less in gasoline taxes). Why not let nature > run > its course and economics do the work? Look for all the oil we can find and > if it starts to run out, let the law of supply and demand drive up prices > to > the point where the incentives are there to visit alternate energy sources > (we're fast approaching that point guys, without government "assistance" > in > the form of higher taxes thank you very much, so get your money ready to > invest in alternate sources). In the USA the enviro wackos are using > pollution and global warming scare tactics to artificially SUPPRESS the > local supply of oil (and Coal and Natural Gas), who knows how much we'd > have > if we could explore everywhere. If you feel so guilty about using so much > oil, sell your RV (it only gets 20 MPG) AND your SUVs and try traveling > cross country in an Insight, you'll need the money you get from the RV to > pay the chiropracter. > > BTW Skylor, this is NOT a personal attack on you. I'm just trying to make > a > point and dispel some of that energy GUILT trip that the special interest > groups, the politicians and the press (yes the press Charlie) have been > trying to lay on ALL OF US since before I was old enough to drive! > > > Dean Psiropoulos > RV-6A N197DM > Uses as much oil as he wants and doesn't feel guilty about it (but does > feel > it in the wallet like everyone else and does NOT like the fact that it may > be going to support radical Islam)! > > Do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:23 PM PST US From: Dan Subject: RV-List: Shop Tool ? --> RV-List message posted by: Dan Thanks all for the responses I've gotten , on a few "new builder " questions, I just wanted to share on one of my favorite and usefull tools which I got on the first day of building was my shop apron from Duluth Trading co. http://www.duluthtrading.com/search/searchresults/83490.aspx It's tough, has great pockets to hold cleco's, tools, pen and glasse's it does a great job of protecting my clothes and when I go to the garage I put it on ! AND I'm building an airplane !! The toughest apron you'll ever weld, grind, or grill in Dan Hatch Seattle -8 QB 728RV