---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 03/01/06: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:45 AM - Re: Quick rv7 rudder question (Dan) 2. 03:07 AM - Re: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG (Dana Overall) 3. 03:52 AM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Doug Gray) 4. 04:16 AM - Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (N395V) 5. 04:30 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) (Dale Ensing) 6. 05:01 AM - Dowl 730 Source (Ed Anderson) 7. 05:02 AM - Re: Fuel Tank SB. (charles heathco) 8. 05:18 AM - Re: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) (LarryRobertHelming) 9. 06:21 AM - Re: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG (bertrv6@highstream.net) 10. 06:47 AM - Re: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG (Vern W.) 11. 06:54 AM - Re: Quick rv7 rudder question (Dave Nellis) 12. 08:28 AM - Re: Dowl 730 Source (Chuck) 13. 08:55 AM - Re: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG (BRUCE GRAY) 14. 09:45 AM - Re: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb (Bob) 15. 10:14 AM - Low Adhesion ProSeal (Dean Pichon) 16. 10:22 AM - Re: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb (Joseph Larson) 17. 10:22 AM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 18. 10:34 AM - Re: Low Adhesion ProSeal (Gerry Filby) 19. 10:42 AM - Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI () 20. 11:07 AM - Re: Low Adhesion ProSeal (Dwight Frye) 21. 02:44 PM - (splevy@l-band-systems.com) 22. 03:14 PM - Re: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb (jsflyrv@comcast.net) 23. 04:01 PM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Steve Struyk) 24. 04:14 PM - Test (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 25. 04:43 PM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 26. 06:31 PM - Using ProSeal for Tank Access Panles (Paul Trotter) 27. 08:02 PM - Re: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (Ed Holyoke) 28. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (James Clark) 29. 11:33 PM - Official RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) (Matt Dralle) 30. 11:38 PM - Official RV-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:45:05 AM PST US From: Dan Subject: Re: RV-List: Quick rv7 rudder question --> RV-List message posted by: Dan David, I'm on an -8 just starting the Rudder it used different spar and rib part numbers but if it's the top tip rib, on the 8 it uses AN470AD4-4 not sure if it the same on a 7 Dan -8 Rudder David Karlsberg wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: David Karlsberg So I looked for what seemed to be like forever and cannot figure out what type of rivet is used to connect R-912 (the counter balance rib) to R-902 (spar) anybody have the drawings handy? Thanks, David Karlsberg Rudder -7 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:07:23 AM PST US From: "Dana Overall" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG --> RV-List message posted by: "Dana Overall" >From: G McNutt >I don't mind Van's covering their a--, but it should be done with some >consideration and forethought for their customers. George, just my point. Gedorge if you want to placard your airplane that way as your means to address the alleged fuel issue, it is your airplane that you have built. You have the right to do so, Van's can't make you, by way of grounding, belittleing, or telling dirty jokes about you around the water cooler:-) A SB from a kit manufacturer, seems to me, to carry the same weight as a pre sport pilot "Alleged" "licensed" ultralight "pilot". No slap at us who do indeed like to fly ultralights but what the #$%!@#$%. Sorry, I probably shouldn't say this but for some reason this SB, out of many issued by Van's, reminds me of my parents telling me the hysteria generated by the radio rendition of "War of the Worlds"..............the sky is falling, the damn has burst, run for you lives.......oops my bad!!!!! Heck, I'll go out on this vote limb.......Van's if you find something you want me to change, tell me, I'll get to it based on the importance I place on it for the aircraft I have built. George, this is truly a very light hearted reply to your post. It is nothing more than my own feelings, probably carries as much weight as a Van's SB. Just keep in mind, again my opinion and you get what you pay for, Van's didn't issue this willy nilly. They talked about it, hashed it out amongest themselves, typed up a draft, changed the draft until they agreed upon it's release and released it. A lot of kit manufacturers would have swept it under the rug with that "something wrong, what do you mean, had to be the builder" attitude. Primer, Primer, Primer............who needs it. Dana Overall Richmond, KY i39 RV-7 slider, Imron black, "Black Magic" Finish kit do not archive On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:52:12 AM PST US From: Doug Gray Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray On another occasion where I had to remove Proseal from Aluminium I found a serated steak knife to work the best. I was able to hack into the Proseal without any damage to the Al or to the soft alclad surface. Doug Gray LARRY ADAMSON wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "LARRY ADAMSON" > > > > I once heard that a plastic butter knife works well. > > What's the best method of removing tank end plates that are prosealed on? > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:09 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI From: "N395V" --> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" > SEMPER FI Semper Fi 1967-1972 Do not archive -------- Milt N395V F1 Rocket Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=18662#18662 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:30:09 AM PST US From: "Dale Ensing" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" Where do ya' order the Dow Corning 730 RTV sealant ? I bent my tank inspection plates tryin' to take 'em off after 3 years of being "Pro-sealed". Aircraft Spruce. Here is the page. http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/dow730.php Dale Ensing ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:25 AM PST US From: "Ed Anderson" Subject: RV-List: Dowl 730 Source --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" Here is the same stuff from McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/ for a bit less money. Size Color Each 730 3.0-oz. Tube White 74925A65 $71.60 730 Solvent Resistant- Contains fluorosilicone rubber, which resists swelling when exposed to fuel, oil, and most solvents. Nonrunning paste for repairing fuel lines and tanks, bonding components exposed to solvents, and making formed-in-place gaskets. May corrode certain metals (including copper, brass, zinc, and carbon steel). Begins to harden in 25 minutes. Temperature range is -85 to +400 F. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Ensing" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" > > > Where do ya' order the Dow Corning 730 RTV sealant ? I bent my tank > inspection > plates tryin' to take 'em off after 3 years of being "Pro-sealed". > > Aircraft Spruce. Here is the page. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/dow730.php > > Dale Ensing > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:16 AM PST US From: "charles heathco" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. --> RV-List message posted by: "charles heathco" Its also on pg 80 of the 24 yrs edition, alongwith othere tank info. Charlie H ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:00 AM PST US From: "LarryRobertHelming" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) --> RV-List message posted by: "LarryRobertHelming" > >> I bought mine from Vans. When mixed properly, and shown respect for its >> age >> and the temperature environment it was stored in I had excellent results. > > Hi Larry, > > Was your "proseal" in the caulk tube or in the can? Mine was in the can and had the black activator in a separate container. LRH > > Mine was in the tube. I've got a picture of the label > here: > > http://www.rv8.ch/article.php?story=20040726220023545 > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 06:21:47 AM PST US From: bertrv6@highstream.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG --> RV-List message posted by: bertrv6@highstream.net Quoting G McNutt : > --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt > > Hi Dana > > Dana Overall wrote: > > >snip -- Van's sees a potential problem that could affect the lives of > pilots flying kit planes purchased from them. ------------- what if that > fellow bores a hole in the ground when the nut he thought was tight 5 years > ago > >come loose -------------------- > > > > > > > Van's tech support people have been telling people that Van's "has > assumed owners are checking these fittings at every annual". If that was > the case why would they not give some consideration in the bulletin for > someone who had just done his annual. > > I don't mind Van's covering their a--, but it should be done with some > consideration and forethought for their customers. > Instead of the "before further flight", wouldn't a SB (1) requiring a > placard (change tanks in event of power loss dummy) and /or (2) minimum > fuel 1/2 tank until inspection completed have been better. > > So lets hope Van hires a new SB writer, maybe someone from Lycoming who > will not use the "allegedly" word. > > George in Langley BC > do not archive > > Mr. George: I cannot believe the amount of postings on this. WHO CARES, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING IF YOU WANT. YOU CAN FLY WITH FLAT TIRES IF YOU WANT.. WHY THE COOMPLAINT... JUST IGNORE IT AND GO ON... I DID MINE, LAST WEEK END, NO BIG DEAL... BUT I DECIDED TO DO IT. IF VAN's come up with another sb. tomorrow,, fine with me.. let's give a rest.. Bert rv6a DO NOT ARCHIVE > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:36 AM PST US From: "Vern W." Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG --> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." I understand maybe a little frustration because of having to dig back into the wings to do this SB, but I don't understand what could be called the "furor" about it. It looks to me that people are a lot more upset about the fuel tank SB than they are about the Lycoming "issue" that will require an average of about $6000 to $8000 to comply once the parts are bought and the labor is paid for. I wonder if it's because RV builders are so spoiled nowadays with pre-punched kits, QB kits, and so much prefab that's done for us that we forget what Experimental kits were like just a dozen years ago. I think we should all just do it, be thankful that Van's is on top of safety issues (whether real or imagined), and look forward to some more SB's as time goes on. This isn't the first, and it sure isn't going to be the last. Go buy a used GA aircraft and have some REAL fun making sure that all AD's have been complied with since the day it was built. Some GA aircraft would make our RV's with its' SB's look like a walk in the park. Vern W. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:26 AM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: Re: RV-List: Quick rv7 rudder question --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis I had that same question when I built my rudder not that long ago. I could not find an answer. So, I went back to basics. I knew that I needed 1.5 times the diameter of the rivet protruding from the shop side. I therefore took some different length AN470AD4 rivets and fit each one till I found one that looked to be about 1.5 times as long as the diameter. If you are getting specific, you need .140 sticking out. Dave --- David Karlsberg wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: David Karlsberg > > > So I looked for what seemed to be like forever and > cannot figure out what > type of rivet is used to connect R-912 (the counter > balance rib) to R-902 > (spar) anybody have the drawings handy? > > Thanks, > David Karlsberg > Rudder -7 > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:06 AM PST US From: Chuck Subject: Re: RV-List: Dowl 730 Source --> RV-List message posted by: Chuck Thank you very much. Chuck ( Donut Archive :-) ...but seriously, Do Not Archive. Ed Anderson wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Anderson" Here is the same stuff from McMaster: http://www.mcmaster.com/ for a bit less money. Size Color Each 730 3.0-oz. Tube White 74925A65 $71.60 730 Solvent Resistant- Contains fluorosilicone rubber, which resists swelling when exposed to fuel, oil, and most solvents. Nonrunning paste for repairing fuel lines and tanks, bonding components exposed to solvents, and making formed-in-place gaskets. May corrode certain metals (including copper, brass, zinc, and carbon steel). Begins to harden in 25 minutes. Temperature range is -85 to +400 F. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dale Ensing" Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:29 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Fuel tank SB (it's easy) > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dale Ensing" > > > Where do ya' order the Dow Corning 730 RTV sealant ? I bent my tank > inspection > plates tryin' to take 'em off after 3 years of being "Pro-sealed". > > Aircraft Spruce. Here is the page. > > http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/dow730.php > > Dale Ensing > > > --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:55:43 AM PST US From: "BRUCE GRAY" Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG --> RV-List message posted by: "BRUCE GRAY" Amen Brother! You should look at some of those aircraft at the airport tided down for months/years on end and then one day see a car pull up unchaulk that sucker and spit, sputter, pop the engine to life and take-off. No way man! The end result of all this conversations, posts, mild cursing and argument to comply with the S/B is exactly what Van's intended to do with it, "IT HAS US ALL PAYING ATTENTION". The new word at the airport, "To comply, Or not to comply. Have fun, Fly safe, Bruce Gray RV8 Fuse >From: "Vern W." >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: RV-List: Fuel Tank SB. Someone please talk to Richard VG >Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2006 08:46:46 -0600 > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." > >I understand maybe a little frustration because of having to dig back into >the wings to do this SB, but I don't understand what could be called the >"furor" about it. > >It looks to me that people are a lot more upset about the fuel tank SB than >they are about the Lycoming "issue" that will require an average of about >$6000 to $8000 to comply once the parts are bought and the labor is paid >for. > >I wonder if it's because RV builders are so spoiled nowadays with >pre-punched kits, QB kits, and so much prefab that's done for us that we >forget what Experimental kits were like just a dozen years ago. > >I think we should all just do it, be thankful that Van's is on top of >safety >issues (whether real or imagined), and look forward to some more SB's as >time goes on. This isn't the first, and it sure isn't going to be the last. >Go buy a used GA aircraft and have some REAL fun making sure that all AD's >have been complied with since the day it was built. Some GA aircraft would >make our RV's with its' SB's look like a walk in the park. > >Vern W. > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:18 AM PST US From: Bob have never seeing so many sb Subject: Re: RV-List: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb --> RV-List message posted by: Bob have never seeing so many sb >I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER SEEING SO MANY POSTINGS AS THE ONE >FOR THE S.B. TANKS.. >WHO CARES... ALL THESE PEOPLE COMPLAINING , AND HOWLING .. DON'T DO IT. >NO ONE IS FORCING ANY ONE TO DO IT.. >I DID MINE, THIS PAST WEEK END. I HAVE HAD TO REMOVE ONE TANK BEFORE >DUE TO A FUEL LEAK... NO BIG DEAL.. WARNING: If you don't want to get pissed off, please delete NOW!!! I will tell you what the big deal is! This is a mandatory SB and I for one feel that I should complete it before my next flight. Despite the SB instructions this task will take me at least 20-30 hours of work. At this time I do not have the time available to do this until sometime in April. Which means I will not be flying until it is done in April. That might not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. I have read the instructions and for my RV they are flat out WRONG!!! No way I can follow Vans instructions. One point is that on the inverted tank the access plate is on the rear tank bulkhead. So this tank must come off the airplane. My inverted fuel tank was built in accordance with the Vans plans and construction manual. Once again wrong instructions might not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. But what the real BIG DEAL is that some of us have lost confidence in Van's construction designs. Before, I felt that if Van designed it that way, that was the the best way to build it. But now I feel like I have to question everything in my aircraft. So what else have I built according to the plans that may now be wrong? FYI wing tanks have been on RVs for around 30 years, this is not a new untried design or technique. This is a significant emotional event for me, in other words, this is a BIG DEAL! I realize that other airplanes have these SBs and ADs. So that makes it all right? As for Lycoming crankshafts, it does not affect my engine, but this really upsets me also. If I bought my Lycoming from Wall Mart I would expect these types of problems, but at the price I paid for my engine I expect a little bit better quality control. But on the other hand, as bad as Lycoming quality control is, we just keep on buying them. We are our own worst enemy. Bob RV6 NightFighter ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:14:40 AM PST US From: "Dean Pichon" Subject: RV-List: Low Adhesion ProSeal --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" Hi All, For those of you looking for a means to seal the access panels to tanks while maintaining the ability to remove them, look at PRC DeSoto's "low adhesion" polysulfide (ProSeal) sealant: http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/pr1428a.pdf This is a modified polysulfide sealant designed specifically for access doors and the like. The PRC-Desoto (PPG) is a wealth of valuable information. Dean RV-4 Bolton, MA ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:06 AM PST US From: Joseph Larson Subject: Re: RV-List: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb --> RV-List message posted by: Joseph Larson Maybe the fact that everyone in the industry, from time to time, needs to modify their design in this fashion should tell you something. It's a complex problem, and no one, no matter how skilled, is able to envision absolutely everything that can go wrong. For weight and complexity reasons, a designer is going to keep his design as simple as possible to safely fulfill the aircraft mission. You add complexity only for good reason. Which means there are a lot of judgement calls to make. And clearly, this particular call is 98% right. The number of problems in this area have been small, but not zero. I guess I don't know what you expect. Perfection? It doesn't exist. -Joe do not archive On Mar 1, 2006, at 12:39 PM, Bob have never seeing so many sb wrote: > But what the real BIG DEAL is that some of us have lost confidence > in Van's construction designs. Before, I felt that if Van designed > it that > way, that was the the best way to build it. But now I feel like I > have to > question everything in my aircraft. > > .... > I realize that other airplanes have these SBs and ADs. So that > makes it > all right? > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:22:42 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 2/28/06 8:00:31 PM Central Standard Time, rv8striker@hotmail.com writes: > I've had good success removing the old Proseal with a simple three step > process. 1. carefully scrape the area with a razor. 2. Use a Dremel Tool > with a small wire brush. This will remove 95% of the stuff. 3. A rag and > some MEK will clean up what's left. >>>>>> How did you keep stuff from getting inside the tank? Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:34:46 AM PST US Subject: Re: RV-List: Low Adhesion ProSeal From: Gerry Filby --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby Thanks for the info ! Do you have a source for supply ? Nothing on Aircraft Spruce, Silmid has it in their catalog, but doesn't have any ... g do not archive > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" > > Hi All, > > For those of you looking for a means to seal the access panels to tanks > while maintaining the ability to remove them, look at PRC DeSoto's "low > adhesion" polysulfide (ProSeal) sealant: > > http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/pr1428a.pdf > > This is a modified polysulfide sealant designed specifically for access > doors and the like. The PRC-Desoto (PPG) is a wealth of valuable > information. > > Dean > RV-4 > Bolton, MA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:41 AM PST US From: Subject: RV-List: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI --> RV-List message posted by: Doug: No offense to anyone, but people are going crazy with electrical stuff and they are being overly influenced by a few sources. Here is the deal: ONE: IF you talk to Klaus the owner / inventor or the Lightspeed he does NOT recommend dual batteries. You already have a BIG huge main battery capable of starting the airplane. He does show a simple dual battery set- up, but it is not required. TWO: The LS ignition uses VERY VERY little current (amps) and works on 4V to 35V !!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a large operating voltage range! No other ignition does this. THREE: Forget dual alternators and all the crap. It's B&C (who sells these standby alternators) and Bob N. of Aerolelectric List, whose whole world revolves around the electrical system PUSHING this. Bob's ideas tend to push people to make their electrical system overly complicated, expensive and heavy. Unless you are flying a $30k panel, IFR with an electrically dependant automotive engine (EFI) than forget it. FOUR: THERE HAS NEVER been a LYCOMING taken out of the SKY because the main battery failed or was not available. People will tell you they have scary scary stories they **heard** of. I know, they are urban legend and exaggerated. Ask who ever tells you a story to give you detailed FACTS. They can't. The Lightspeed runs on voltages from 4V to 35V. READ 4V to 35V. (If you push for detail, the stories have more holes in it than it makes sense.) 5 TH: YOU DON'T **NEED** TWO BATTRIES OR TWO ALTERNATOR. The LS ignition can fly all day on the main battery, fill the tanks and fly another day, just on the battery. You do not have Electronic Fuel Injection and electric only fuel pumps like AUTO engines. ONE ALTERNATOR, ONE BATTERY is more than acceptable. LAST: Just wire the LS ignitions DIRECT to the battery and you will be fine. Don't fall pray to the OVER DONE OVER COMPLICATED OVER COSTLY HEAVY electrical systems. YOU HAVE A SINGLE ENGINE PLANE FOR GOSH SAKES. You have a better chance of the Prop falling off the engine than the battery not being their to get you on the ground. Write me off line and we can talk how to wire to best assure your IGNITION gets power, when and if you decide to get the EI. Also some may suggest the P/E-mag. They are nice but they are lower peformance EI than the Lightspeed. Don't consider MIX and match of Lightspeed with P-mag because you will not get the gain in performance a second ignitnon would normaly give. Cheers George, RV-4, RV-7, B757 Subject: RV-List: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI From: Doug Weiler --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Weiler Fellow Listers: I am contemplating converting my mag driven 0-360 to Lightspeed electronic ignition. I may consider the dual Lightspeed installation. Lightspeed calls for a 4.5 amp/hr backup battery (if I so choose). I need something small and light to squeeze this installation in to my RV-4. For those that have done this, what backup battery did you use? Thanks Doug Weiler N722DW, 275 hrs --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:07:36 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: Low Adhesion ProSeal --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye I did a little bit of quick searching (Google is my friend) and found a supplier in the US. It is "Business Aircraft Cnosumables, Inc." in Crystal Lake, Illinois. I talked with a *very* helpful woman on the phone and got some good information. There are two variants of the PR-1428 product, both designed for use as "fuel door sealants". The "A" version is thinner, but has a HAZMAT charge of about $20 because it includes toluene. The "B" version does NOT have toluene, and is therefore able to be shipped without the HAZMAT charges. It is available in a 3.5oz cartridge .. just like the cartridges of ProSeal for those of you who have used them. It is actually a 6oz sized container (meaning your 6oz Semco cartridge holder works) with only 3.5oz of material packed inside it. Just about perfect for what we need. If you have a need/desire to thin it, you can do so with MEK or toluene yourself ... but I don't see a real need, personally. The price for the 3.5oz cartridge of PR-1428B is right at $40. Not cheap, but maybe worth it to avoid having to play gorilla if you ever need to get the cover off again. I don't know if this is the cheapest place to get the stuff ... but I do know they normally stock it (they are out right now, but will have more in within the next 2-3 days). They do NOT stock the "A" version, however. BAC's website is http://www.bac1.peachhost.com/Home.htm, and their phone number is 888-239-6625. I have no affiliation with this company, not even as a satisfied customer (yet). If someone finds it cheaper, great ... but if not, these folks will likely be who gets my $$$ as I intend to comply with the SB (I ain't flying yet, so why not??) and will likely re-seal my cover with the PR-1428B material. -- Dwight On Wed Mar 1 13:32:12 2006, Gerry Filby wrote : > >--> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby > > >Thanks for the info ! > >Do you have a source for supply ? Nothing on Aircraft Spruce, >Silmid has it in their catalog, but doesn't have any ... > >g > >do not archive > >> >> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dean Pichon" >> >> Hi All, >> >> For those of you looking for a means to seal the access panels to tanks >> while maintaining the ability to remove them, look at PRC DeSoto's "low >> adhesion" polysulfide (ProSeal) sealant: >> >> http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/pr1428a.pdf >> >> This is a modified polysulfide sealant designed specifically for access >> doors and the like. The PRC-Desoto (PPG) is a wealth of valuable >> information. >> >> Dean >> RV-4 >> Bolton, MA >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >-- >__g__ > >========================================================== >Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com > Tel: 415 203 9177 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:44:43 PM PST US From: splevy@l-band-systems.com --> RV-List message posted by: splevy@l-band-systems.com A cautionary note here. This "low adhesion" sealant appears to be the same that is used on Grumman AA series planes to seal the access panels in the bottom of the tank (bottom skin). They require it because the panels are .032 material in mid-span of the thin skin, and are basically unsupported. The regular sealant makes removing the panels a near impossible task without bending something. With the "low adhesion" sealant, it is possible. (The warm, sharp putty knife trick.) However, it is common knowledge about Grummans that these panels will leak, the only question is when. Leaking and oozing bottom cover plates are extremely common in the Grumman fleet. The only saving grace is that these panels are at least out where they can worked on fairly easily. I would not use it on an RV wing tank, knowing it will only be a matter of time before it begins to leak. I just finished closing up my first tank, and I will use regular Proseal for the cover. Your mileage may vary. Blue Skies. Stan N67Sl (reserved) RV7-A (wings) KCCB N6085L Grumman Traveler KEMT >> For those of you looking for a means to seal the access panels to tanks >> while maintaining the ability to remove them, look at PRC DeSoto's "low >> adhesion" polysulfide (ProSeal) sealant: >> >> http://www.ppg.com/prc-desoto/pdf/pr1428a.pdf >> >> This is a modified polysulfide sealant designed specifically for access >> doors and the like. The PRC-Desoto (PPG) is a wealth of valuable >> information. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:14:45 PM PST US From: jsflyrv@comcast.net Subject: Re: RV-List: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb --> RV-List message posted by: jsflyrv@comcast.net If I was you I would junk that piece of S**t rght now. I am sure that the design is so bad that it will fall apart the next time you get in it. NO WAY AM I EVER GOING TO FLY MINE AGAIN. You have made me aware that the thing is junk and Van's does not have a clue what they are doing. I sure wish that I had known this 17 years ago when I built mine. I would not have flown it all these years if you had told me they did not know how to design the most popular homebuilt in the world.. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- From: Bob have never seeing so many sb > --> RV-List message posted by: Bob have never seeing so > many sb > > > >I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER SEEING SO MANY POSTINGS AS THE ONE > >FOR THE S.B. TANKS.. > >WHO CARES... ALL THESE PEOPLE COMPLAINING , AND HOWLING .. DON'T DO IT. > >NO ONE IS FORCING ANY ONE TO DO IT.. > >I DID MINE, THIS PAST WEEK END. I HAVE HAD TO REMOVE ONE TANK BEFORE > >DUE TO A FUEL LEAK... NO BIG DEAL.. > > WARNING: If you don't want to get pissed off, please delete NOW!!! > > I will tell you what the big deal is! This is a mandatory SB and I for one > feel that I should complete it before my next flight. Despite the SB > instructions this task will take me at least 20-30 hours of work. At this > time I do not have the time available to do this until sometime in > April. Which means I will not be flying until it is done in April. That > might not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. > > I have read the instructions and for my RV they are flat out WRONG!!! No > way I can follow Vans instructions. One point is that on the inverted tank > the access plate is on the rear tank bulkhead. So this tank must come off > the airplane. My inverted fuel tank was built in accordance with the Vans > plans and construction manual. Once again wrong instructions might not be > a big deal for you, but it is for me. > > But what the real BIG DEAL is that some of us have lost confidence > in Van's construction designs. Before, I felt that if Van designed it that > way, that was the the best way to build it. But now I feel like I have to > question everything in my aircraft. > > So what else have I built according to the plans that may now be > wrong? FYI wing tanks have been on RVs for around 30 years, this is not a > new untried design or technique. > > This is a significant emotional event for me, in other words, this is a BIG > DEAL! > > I realize that other airplanes have these SBs and ADs. So that makes it > all right? > > As for Lycoming crankshafts, it does not affect my engine, but this really > upsets me also. If I bought my Lycoming from Wall Mart I would expect > these types of problems, but at the price I paid for my engine I expect a > little bit better quality control. But on the other hand, as bad as > Lycoming quality control is, we just keep on buying them. We are our own > worst enemy. > > > Bob > RV6 NightFighter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If I was you I would junk that piece of S**t rght now. I am sure that the design is so bad that it will fall apart the next time you get in it. NO WAY AM I EVER GOING TO FLY MINE AGAIN. You have made me aware that the thing is junk and Van's does not have a clue what they are doing. I sure wish that I had known this 17 years ago when I built mine. I would not have flown it all these years if you had told me they did not know how to design the most popular homebuilt in the world.. do not archive -------------- Original message -------------- From: Bob panamared3@brier.net have never seeing so many sb -- RV-List message posted by: Bob have never seeing so many sb I HAVE TO TELL YOU THAT I HAVE NEVER SEEING SO MANY POSTINGS AS THE ONE FOR THE S.B. TANKS.. WHO CARES... ALL THESE PEOPLE COMPLAINING , AND HOWLING .. DON'T DO IT. NO ONE IS FORCING ANY ONE TO DO IT.. I DID MINE, THIS PAST WEEK END. I HAVE HAD TO REMOVE ONE TANK BEFORE DUE TO A FUEL LEAK... NO BIG DEAL.. WARNING: If you don't want to get pissed off, please delete NOW!!! I will tell you what the big deal is! This is a mandatory SB and I for one feel that I should complete it before my next flight. Despite the SB inst ructions this task will take me at least 20-30 hours of work. At this time I do not have the time available to do this until sometime in April. Which means I will not be flying until it is done in April. That might not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. I have read the instructions and for my RV they are flat out WRONG!!! No way I can follow Vans instructions. One point is that on the inverted tank the access plate is on the rear tank bulkhead. So this tank must come off the airplane. My inverted fuel tank was built in accordance with the Vans plans and construction manual. Once again wrong instructions might not be a big deal for you, but it is for me. But what the real BIG DEAL is that some of us have lost confidence in Van's construction designs. Before, I felt that if Van designed it that way, that was the the best way to build it. But now I feel like I have to question everything in my aircraft. So what else have I built according to the plans that may now be wrong? FYI wing tanks have been on RVs for around 30 years, this is not a new untried design or technique. This is a significant emotional event for me, in other words, this is a BIG DEAL! I realize that other airplanes have these SBs and ADs. So that makes it all right? As for Lycoming crankshafts, it does not affect my engine, but this really upsets me also. If I bought my Lycoming from Wall Mart I would expect these types of problems, but at the price I paid for my engine I expect a little bit better quality control. But on the other hand, as bad as Lycoming quality control is, we just keep on buying them. We are our own worst enemy. Bob RV6 NightFighter
________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:01:52 PM PST US From: "Steve Struyk" Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB --> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Struyk" Back tape the hole. Put masking tape on the back side of the hole around the perimeter, then fill the center with tape as well. One would do the same if painting over a hole when no paint was wanted inside the opening. Do not archive Steve Struyk RV-8 35 hours ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB > --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com > > In a message dated 2/28/06 8:00:31 PM Central Standard Time, > rv8striker@hotmail.com writes: > >> I've had good success removing the old Proseal with a simple three step >> process. 1. carefully scrape the area with a razor. 2. Use a Dremel Tool >> with a small wire brush. This will remove 95% of the stuff. 3. A rag and >> some MEK will clean up what's left. > >>>>>>> > > How did you keep stuff from getting inside the tank? > > Mark do not archive > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:55 PM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: RV-List: Test --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" do not archive TEST ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:50 PM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 03/01/2006 6:03:31 PM Central Standard Time, rv8striker@hotmail.com writes: Back tape the hole. >> Gotcha- ten points for technique-thanks, Steve! Mark do not archive ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 06:31:29 PM PST US From: Paul Trotter Subject: RV-List: Using ProSeal for Tank Access Panles --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Trotter The discussions regarding Van's fuel tank pickup SB has shown that many people use ProSeal to seal their access panels to the tank. This is a good method, however it has been pointed out that ProSeal is a pain to remove due to its adhesion qualities. A better alternative may be to use sealant designed specifically for this purpose. All the companies that make tank sealant also make access panel sealant that provides the same sealing characteristics but with lower adhesion so the access panels can be removed when necessary. The following table shows the part numbers for various types of sealants from the major manufacurers: Product Type PPG (Pro-Seal) Flamemaster (Chem Seal) AC Tech Tank Sealant P/S 890, PR-1440 CS 3204 AC-236 Access Panel Sealant PR-1321, PR 1428 CS 3330 AC-215 Firewall Sealant P/S 812, P/S 700 CS 1900 Tank Sealant (Rapid Cure) CS 3204R AC-240 A good source for the Flamemaster products is Sealpak Company (www.sealpakcoinc.com) at (316) 942-6211. They are easy to deal with and have no minimum order and can supply any of the Flamemaster products in any amount you need. Paul Troter RV-8 82080 Fuselage Kit ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 08:02:27 PM PST US From: "Ed Holyoke" Subject: RE: RV-List: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI --> RV-List message posted by: "Ed Holyoke" Doug, Don't let anybody tell you what to do or not to do. Do some research and make up your own mind. If you think that 2 batteries are a good idea for 2 electronic ignitions, that's what you should do. I agree with this idea myself. I like the idea of having a second battery, not so much for capacity reasons, but for redundancy. I intend to connect my dual lightspeeds to separate batteries at the battery terminals in my RV-6 project so as to eliminate as many single points of failure as possible. I plan to connect both batteries to the alternator with separate contactors so that both can be charged by and isolated from the system in case of alternator failure. 4.5 ah should be plenty to keep one ignition alive until you run out of gas if the battery is in good condition and you disconnect it from the main buss soon after alternator failure. You should probably have a low voltage light to tell you if that happens. You might want to replace the battery yearly to be sure it has enough capacity to do the job if called upon. If you are using a 25 ah battery as your main, you could substitute 2- 16 ah PC-680 odyssey batteries for more net capacity and not too much extra weight. I'm planning to run that setup and replace one of the batteries every year so that neither is ever more than two years old, but then I'm going to have an all electric panel to feed and care for, so I need more ampere hours capacity than you might. Check out: http://www.aeroelectric.com/articles/Rev11/AppZ_R11E.pdf and look at Z-28 and Z-30 for ideas. You could also subscribe to the aeroelectric.list at Matronics for more ideas. By the way, we're running one Lightspeed and one mag now on our 6a and it works great. If the mag quits, well probably throw on another Lightspeed and work up a second battery. The one we have is crank triggered. If we get another it will be hall effect in the mag drive. Again, no single point of failure to take out both ignitions. Pax, Ed Holyoke Fellow Listers: I am contemplating converting my mag driven 0-360 to Lightspeed electronic ignition. I may consider the dual Lightspeed installation. Lightspeed calls for a 4.5 amp/hr backup battery (if I so choose). I need something small and light to squeeze this installation in to my RV-4. For those that have done this, what backup battery did you use? Thanks Doug Weiler N722DW, 275 hrs --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:28 PM PST US From: "James Clark" Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI --> RV-List message posted by: "James Clark" "gmcjetpilot" and others ... Although Klaus may not "recommend" dual batteries, there is a GOOD reason to have a small dedicated battery in some cases. My friend has a LightSpeed + a non-impulse mag. Using a PC680 and a starter I do not remember, there were times wherein te ONLY way he could crank was AFTER the release of the starter button. He and I MEASURED the voltage and at a voltage that we THINK we measured much ABOVE 4 volts, his engine would NOT crank. We tried adding a capacity to store a just enough to get things started but in the end a small battery was the answer. And yes, we did talk to Klaus. He first figured we wired something wrong. (We had not). The then stated the voltages at which the unit theoretically works. In our case it would not CRANK at a voltage higher than specified. With the battery it all works fine. Now this is not LS or Klaus bashing. I have one in the RV I am building now. The reason for the low voltage was my friend's starter dragged it down, but hey, not all starters are whizz-bang, super-duper crank-em up. FOr a lot of other reasons, my underconstruction plane has dual PC680's but if I were building a simpler plane with the LS, I would add the little battey, if for no other reason than peace of mind. James. On 3/1/06, gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: > > ONE: > IF you talk to Klaus the owner / inventor or the Lightspeed he does NOT > recommend dual batteries. You already have a BIG huge main battery > capable of starting the airplane. He does show a simple dual battery set- > up, but it is not required. > > TWO: > The LS ignition uses VERY VERY little current (amps) and works on 4V to > 35V !!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is a large operating voltage range! No other > ignition does this. > > This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at james@nextupventures.com . ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:12 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Official RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete RV-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/RV-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains RV-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the RV-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the RV-List running smoothly for all of us. **************************************** *** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe *** **************************************** Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of your email address as it is subscribed to the List. 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Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:38:24 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: RV-List: Official RV-List Usage Guidelines --> RV-List message posted by: Matt Dralle Dear Listers, Please read over the RV-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete RV-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/RV-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** RV-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the RV-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the RV-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. RV-List Policy Statement The purpose of the RV-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.]