Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:29 AM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Doug Gray)
2. 04:12 AM - Re: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never seeing so many sb (Vern W.)
3. 04:12 AM - Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB (Mannan J. Thomason)
4. 04:12 AM - Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI ()
5. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (James Clark)
6. 07:04 AM - Re: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (Ron Lee)
7. 11:06 AM - Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI (czechsix@juno.com)
8. 03:25 PM - Teflon hose for inverted fuel pickup? (Kevin Horton)
9. 03:25 PM - Torx head screws? (Kevin Horton)
10. 03:43 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Kyle Boatright)
11. 04:44 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Walter Tondu)
12. 04:47 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Richard McBride)
13. 05:25 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Kevin Horton)
14. 05:25 PM - Re: Teflon hose for inverted fuel pickup? (LessDragProd@aol.com)
15. 05:39 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Paul Trotter)
16. 06:21 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Bill Schlatterer)
17. 06:21 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Walter Tondu)
18. 06:21 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Bill Schlatterer)
19. 06:21 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Richard McBride)
20. 07:12 PM - FI and manual elevator trim (Mike Corder)
21. 07:20 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
22. 07:29 PM - Grrrr... Service Bulletin (Kyle Boatright)
23. 07:43 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
24. 07:50 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Larry Bowen)
25. 08:49 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Vanremog@aol.com)
26. 09:14 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (Tedd McHenry)
27. 09:41 PM - Re: Torx head screws? (MLWynn@aol.com)
28. 09:59 PM - Sealing Tank Access Covers (DEAN PSIROPOULOS)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB |
--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
That should read 'plastic steak knife'
Doug Gray wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
>
> On another occasion where I had to remove Proseal from Aluminium I found a serated
steak knife to
> work the best. I was able to hack into the Proseal without any damage to the
Al or to the soft
> alclad surface.
> Doug Gray
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Confidence in Van's Designs, Previous subject: I have never |
seeing so many sb
--> RV-List message posted by: "Vern W." <highflight1@gmail.com>
Yea, damn straight! After doing some checking, it looks like the Volksplane
has NEVER had an SB published on it so I think I'm going to immediately sell
off the RV7-A project and pick up a Volksplane. There'll be no more of that
SB stuff for me!
Some of these guys just kill me.
Vern W.
On 3/1/06, jsflyrv@comcast.net <jsflyrv@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: jsflyrv@comcast.net
>
> If I was you I would junk that piece of S**t rght now. I am sure that the
> design is so bad that it will fall apart the next time you get in it. NO WAY
> AM I EVER GOING TO FLY MINE AGAIN. You have made me aware that the thing is
> junk
> and Van's does not have a clue what they are doing. I sure wish that I had
> known this 17 years ago when I built mine. I would not have flown it all
> these years if you had told me they did not know how to design the most
> popular homebuilt in the world..
>
> do not archive
>
> -------------- Original message --------------
> From: Bob <panamared3@brier.net> have never seeing so many sb
>
> > --> RV-List message posted by: Bob have never seeing so
> > many sb
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mannan J. Thomason" <mannanj@alltel.net>
Something that works really good on removing residual Pro-Seal from the
surfaces after they have been seperated, is scrap windshield plexiglass.
Cut it on a bandsaw into strips 5 or 6 in. long by 1 in or so wide. Then
sharpen one end on a grinder at about a 45 deg. angle. When it gets dull or
chipped; back to the grinder.
Mannan Thomason
RV-8 Almost finished
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Gray" <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Removing Proseal/Tank MSB
> --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
>
> That should read 'plastic steak knife'
>
> Doug Gray wrote:
>> --> RV-List message posted by: Doug Gray <dgra1233@bigpond.net.au>
>>
>> On another occasion where I had to remove Proseal from Aluminium I found
>> a serated steak knife to
>> work the best. I was able to hack into the Proseal without any damage to
>> the Al or to the soft
>> alclad surface.
>> Doug Gray
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI |
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Calm down everyone, no one is going to get hurt if there are no sudden moves! :-)
Look no one is saying DON'T put two batteries, but it may not be necessary. What
ever sparks your rocket.
As far as 4 volts during START! I call foul, no offense. I can believe 8 volts
but 4 volts? If you saw 4 volts than there was something odd going on with a
weak battery or starter (which I think you mentions was the culprit).
However I agree a dedicated Aux battery should keep the EI voltage higher during
start, since the Aux battery is not being drawn down for start.
The lesson learned here is have a healthy battery. The MAIN battery is the key
to your whole electrical system. Don't run it till it is ragged. Replace it
preventably.
Here is LS dual battery wiring:
http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/Manuals/PS_Diagram.htm
You could get by with a 2.3Ah or 3Ah battery to drive one in case of emergency.
Here is a 3Ah for less than 2.9 lbs:
http://www.batteryweb.com/productpics/BB/BP3-12.jpg
2.3 Ah at 2.1 lbs
http://www.batteryweb.com/productpics/BB/BP2.3-12.jpg
2.2 Ah at 1.9 lbs
http://www.batteryweb.com/productpics/powersonicpics/PS-1220.gif
I stand corrected. Looking at LS install manual, it recommends an AUX battery
with dual EI. I just don't see the main battery going away. I know Klaus does
not use a AUX battery on his VariEZ last I heard. Bottom line is do what makes
you happy and if a little AUX battery works than do it. As I show a 2 Ah would
drive one EI to get you on the ground. I think 4.5Ah is on the large side
for just an EI AUX battery.
Cheers George
From: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI
--> RV-List message posted by: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
"gmcjetpilot" and others ...
Although Klaus may not "recommend" dual batteries, there is a GOOD
reason to have a small dedicated battery in some cases.
My friend has a LightSpeed + a non-impulse mag. Using a PC680 and a
starter I do not remember, there were times wherein te ONLY way he could crank
was AFTER the release of the starter button.
He and I MEASURED the voltage and at a voltage that we THINK we
measured much ABOVE 4 volts, his engine would NOT crank.
We tried adding a capacity to store a just enough to get things started
but in the end a small battery was the answer.
And yes, we did talk to Klaus. He first figured we wired something
wrong. (We had not). The then stated the voltages at which the unit
theoretically works. In our case it would not CRANK at a voltage higher than
specified. With the battery it all works fine.
Now this is not LS or Klaus bashing. I have one in the RV I am building
now.The reason for the low voltage was my friend's starter dragged it down,
but hey, not all starters are whizz-bang, super-duper crank-em up.
For a lot of other reasons, my underconstruction plane has dual PC680's
but if I were building a simpler plane with the LS, I would add the little
battey, if for no other reason than peace of mind.
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
We're all cool. :-)
Just for clarification ...
The voltage was ABOVE 4v. Somewhere between 6 and 8v .... I just don't
remember the exact number at present.
The reason I posted this is because my friend wentr around and around for a
while with Klaus on the matter. When we took reasl measurements and
addressed that, the problem was solved, despite what Klaus felt should have
been occurring for that particular case.
James
On 3/2/06, gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
>
> Calm down everyone, no one is going to get hurt if there are no sudden
> moves! :-)
>
> Look no one is saying DON'T put two batteries, but it may not be
> necessary. What ever sparks your rocket.
>
> As far as 4 volts during START! I call foul, no offense. I can believe 8
> volts but 4 volts? If you saw 4 volts than there was something odd going on
> with a weak battery or starter (which I think you mentions was the culprit).
>
> However I agree a dedicated Aux battery should keep the EI voltage
> higher during start, since the Aux battery is not being drawn down for
> start.
<SNIP>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>He and I MEASURED the voltage and at a voltage that we THINK we measured
>much ABOVE 4 volts, his engine would NOT crank.
I have an impulse mag and LS EI. During my condition inspection my
A&P measured voltages at several places in the starting circuit. My
"recollection" is that at the starter it was around 7 volts. There was also
a drop at the solenoid.
The solenoid to starter wire was #4 and was replaced with #2. The continuous
duty solenoid was replaced with a starter type solenoid. Although the
voltage at the starter is better now the prop can still "stall" on a
compression
stroke but after a short pause it starts fine. (wood prop, PC680 battery)
I did buy a PC 925 battery to replace the PC680 sometime this year and
will see how that improves the starting.
PS, the voltage at the battery was also dropping to the point where Klaus
says that kickback "may" be a problem...although I never have had that
happen.
Ron Lee
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI |
--> RV-List message posted by: "czechsix@juno.com" <czechsix@juno.com>
Hi Doug,
My RV is setup for day/night VFR and I have dual Lightspeeds. I pondered the electrical
system options extensively. I originally planned to go with two alternators
and one battery. The thing I kept coming back to is that with one battery,
you have a single-point failure for the entire electrical system. Notwithstanding
the opinion of others to the contrary, it IS possible to have a battery
lead break off or come loose. I know people who've had their car quit because
of this. I don't know anyone who has had their Lycoming quit from this--yet--but
one of the guys on the Aeroelectric List a couple years back did have a battery
lead break (in his case it did not result in engine failure, but if he
had been using a single battery architecture with dual elec igntion, it would
have!). People can argue that it was improper installation or poor maintenance
and that's fine, but it has happened and I prefer to design out the possibility
in my airplane. Even with dual alternators, if the backup alternator is off
and you lose connection to the battery, the alternator is not self-exciting for
startup so it does you no good (or at least I wouldn't bank on it). So you
lose everything including the engine at that point. I was not personally comfortable
with this setup in my plane and decided to go with single alternator, dual
battery setup instead.
Another advantage to the dual battery setup is that you can avoid the perceived
weakness in the Lightspeed system with the Skytec starter that has resulted in
damaging kickback with more than one installation. I won't get into the causes
and fixes and who's-to-blame thing, but if you have a small backup battery
that is isolated from the rest of the elec system, you can use it to power one
ignition while cranking the engine from the main battery. This is exactly what
I do on my plane with great results so far...I turn on only the ignition powered
by the backup battery, leaving the main one off. Crank it and it starts great
(even in winter in Iowa, with no primer system). Then I switch on the main
ignition and I'm good to go with no chance of kickback from low voltages on
the Lightspeed...
I wired mine pretty much like Klaus shows with a Schottky diode in between to isolate
the backup battery from the rest of the elec system. I elected not to put
in a switch like Klaus shows to switch the ignition between main and backup...I
didn't see an advantage to it and didn't want to be flipping switches to
get my engine started again (would prefer it doesn't quit to begin with!). I simply
wired my second igntion directly to the +/- terminals of the backup battery.
The main ignition is likewise wired directly to the +/- terminals of the
main battery. The only other thing I have connected to the backup battery is a
voltmeter just so I can monitor it (note: in my case the path to the voltmeter
is switched on/off with the ignition....this is because the voltmeter draws
a small current, so if you wired it always-on it would drain the battery while
the airplane is powered down).
I used a PowerSonic 2.9 Ah battery (PS-1229). It's light and relatively cheap (I
think about $25-30...you can Google it and get lots of hits). I plan to change
the battery every two years to ensure that it's reasonably fresh. I know Klaus
says 4.5 Ah but I thought that was overkill (unless you plan to be flying
over some really rugged terrain/ocean with no alternates within an hour or two
of flight). The 2.9 Ah batt is theoretically good for almost 3 hours of run time
on one ignition (drawing ~ 1A at cruise RPM's). In the unlikely event that
I ever find myself operating the engine soley on the backup battery, I will try
to have it on the ground within an hour. Remember, if you're flying in that
condition it means you've lost everything else in your panel so you're probably
not going to be wanting to continue a long XC under those circumstances! If
I upgrade to IFR I'll put the backup battery in the Dynon and make sure I have
fresh batteries in my handheld comm and GPS.
One nice thing about the PS-1229 is that it can fit into the standard Vans battery
tray along with an Odyssey PC-680. I have the PC-680 at the back of the tray
against the firewall and a piece of angle in front of it (to keep it from sliding
forward). The PS-1229 is in the front of the tray. There is about 3/4"
of space between the two so any sort of melt down/overheat condition of one battery
won't take out the other one.
FWIW, I made up a quick checklist in my POH for main alternator failure. If the
main alternator quits and I plan to continue my flight for over an hour, I will
turn OFF my backup-powered ignition to save the battery just in case it's needed.
I will continue to planned destination running the main igntion and reduced
panel loads (e-bus) and only turn the backup ignition ON when approaching
to land. This way if the main battery craps out on me prior to arrival at my
destination I will be able to keep the engine running with the fully-charged backup
system.
Some may say my setup is overkill, others will think it's inadequate. But it's
my airplane and this setup is one that I'm very comfortable with.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D flying 8.3 hours...
Subject: RV-List: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI
From: Doug Weiler <dcw@mnwing.org>
--> RV-List message posted by: Doug Weiler <dcw@mnwing.org>
Fellow Listers:
I am contemplating converting my mag driven 0-360 to Lightspeed
electronic ignition. I may consider the dual Lightspeed installation.
Lightspeed calls for a 4.5 amp/hr backup battery (if I so choose). I need
something small and light to squeeze this installation in to my RV-4. For
those that have done this, what backup battery did you use?
Thanks
Doug Weiler
N722DW, 275 hrs
Hi Doug,
My RV is setup for day/night VFR and I have dual Lightspeeds. I pondered the electrical
system options extensively. I originally planned to go with two alternators
and one battery. The thing I kept coming back to is that with one battery,
you have a single-point failure for the entire electrical system. Notwithstanding
the opinion of others to the contrary, it IS possible to have a battery
lead break off or come loose. I know people who've had their car quit because
of this. I don't know anyone who has had their Lycoming quit from this--yet--but
one of the guys on the Aeroelectric List a couple years back did have a battery
lead break (in his case it did not result in engine failure, but if he
had been using a single battery architecture with dual elec igntion, it would
have!). People can argue that it was improper installation or poor maintenance
and that's fine, but it has happened and I prefer to design out the possibility
in my airplane. Even with dual alternators, if the backup alternator is off
and you lose connection to the battery, the alternator is not self-exciting for
startup so it does you no good (or at least I wouldn't bank on it). So you
lose everything including the engine at that point. I was not personally comfortable
with this setup in my plane and decided to go with single alternator, dual
battery setup instead.
Another advantage to the dual battery setup is that you can avoid the perceived
weakness in the Lightspeed system with the Skytec starter that has resulted in
damaging kickback with more than one installation. I won't get into the causes
and fixes and who's-to-blame thing, but if you have a small backup battery
that is isolated from the rest of the elec system, you can use it to power one
ignition while cranking the engine from the main battery. This is exactly what
I do on my plane with great results so far...I turn on only the ignition powered
by the backup battery, leaving the main one off. Crank it and it starts great
(even in winter in Iowa, with no primer system). Then I switch on the main
ignition and I'm good to go with no chance of kickback from low voltages on
the Lightspeed...
I wired mine pretty much like Klaus shows with a Schottky diode in between to isolate
the backup battery from the rest of the elec system. I elected not to put
in a switch like Klaus shows to switch the ignition between main and backup...I
didn't see an advantage to it and didn't want to be flipping switches to
get my engine started again (would prefer it doesn't quit to begin with!). I simply
wired my second igntion directly to the +/- terminals of the backup battery.
The main ignition is likewise wired directly to the +/- terminals of the
main battery. The only other thing I have connected to the backup battery is a
voltmeter just so I can monitor it (note: in my case the path to the voltmeter
is switched on/off with the ignition....this is because the voltmeter draws
a small current, so if you wired it always-on it would drain the battery while
the airplane is powered down).
I used a PowerSonic 2.9 Ah battery (PS-1229). It's light and relatively cheap (I
think about $25-30...you can Google it and get lots of hits). I plan to change
the battery every two years to ensure that it's reasonably fresh. I know Klaus
says 4.5 Ah but I thought that was overkill (unless you plan to be flying
over some really rugged terrain/ocean with no alternates within an hour or two
of flight). The 2.9 Ah batt is theoretically good for almost 3 hours of run time
on one ignition (drawing ~ 1A at cruise RPM's). In the unlikely event that
I ever find myself operating the engine soley on the backup battery, I will try
to have it on the ground within an hour. Remember, if you're flying in that
condition it means you've lost everything else in your panel so you're probably
not going to be wanting to continue a long XC under those circumstances! If
I upgrade to IFR I'll put the backup battery in the Dynon and make sure I have
fresh batteries in my handheld comm and GPS.
One nice thing about the PS-1229 is that it can fit into the standard Vans battery
tray along with an Odyssey PC-680. I have the PC-680 at the back of the tray
against the firewall and a piece of angle in front of it (to keep it from sliding
forward). The PS-1229 is in the front of the tray. There is about 3/4"
of space between the two so any sort of melt down/overheat condition of one battery
won't take out the other one.
FWIW, I made up a quick checklist in my POH for main alternator failure. If the
main alternator quits and I plan to continue my flight for over an hour, I will
turn OFF my backup-powered ignition to save the battery just in case it's needed.
I will continue to planned destination running the main igntion and reduced
panel loads (e-bus) and only turn the backup ignition ON when approaching
to land. This way if the main battery craps out on me prior to arrival at my
destination I will be able to keep the engine running with the fully-charged backup
system.
Some may say my setup is overkill, others will think it's inadequate. But it's
my airplane and this setup is one that I'm very comfortable with.
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D flying 8.3 hours...
Subject: RV-List: Backup battery - Lightspeed EI
From: Doug Weiler dcw@mnwing.org
-- RV-List message posted by: Doug Weiler dcw@mnwing.org
Fellow Listers:
I am contemplating converting my mag driven 0-360 to Lightspeed
electronic ignition. I may consider the dual Lightspeed installation.
Lightspeed calls for a 4.5 amp/hr backup battery (if I so choose). I need
something small and light to squeeze this installation in to my RV-4. For
those that have done this, what backup battery did you use?
Thanks
Doug Weiler
N722DW, 275 hrs
Message 8
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| Subject: | Teflon hose for inverted fuel pickup? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I'm wondering about replacing my inverted fuel pickup hose with a
Teflon one (e.g. Aeroquip 666) when I open that tank up for
inspection. The regular hoses should be replaced every once in a
while, which will be a lot more difficult if the hose is secured to
the elbow. A Teflon hose is supposedly good forever, if it is
protected from damage, like inside a fuel tank. That way I could put
it in and essentially forget about it. I would probably open the
tank up for a look every few years, but hopefully would never need to
replace anything.
I have no experience with Teflon lined hoses. I have several questions.
1. Is a Teflon hose as "floppy" as a regular hose? A too-stiff
inverted fuel pickup is no good.
2. I don't recall what the floppy end of the hose looks like. Does
it have a standard hose end fitting that the weighted pickup screws
to, or is it something custom?
3. Can I install the hose ends myself, or would I need to order a
custom hose? I would have expected Van to carry this as an option,
but they don't seem to.
4. Does anyone sell a ready-made Teflon hose that is just the right
length for an inverted fuel pickup on an RV-8, or would I need to
measure and order a custom one?
5. Is there any reason other than cost that I shouldn't use a Teflon
hose?
6. It is important to get the right length. I've never figured out
how the hose length is specified. The descriptions I have read talk
about measuring between mating surfaces. But the mated surfaces are
at a 37 degree angle. What do I measure to? Where can I find a
drawing or clear explanation?
Thanks,
Fly safe,
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 9
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| Subject: | Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel
screws for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips
heads. MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no
experience with Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx
drivers always look too small to me. Do they break, or is it really
a good solution? Do the receptacles in the head wear much?
Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than
Torx? If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x
1/2" screws?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Horton" <khorton01@rogers.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Torx head screws?
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel
> screws for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips
> heads. MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no
> experience with Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx
> drivers always look too small to me. Do they break, or is it really
> a good solution? Do the receptacles in the head wear much?
>
> Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than
> Torx? If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x
> 1/2" screws?
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
> do not archive
I think (hope?) I ordered the round head hex screws you are describing from
MicroFasteners a day or two ago.
KB
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu <walter@tondu.com>
On 03/02 6:21, Kevin Horton wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
>
> I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel
> screws for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips
> heads. MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no
> experience with Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx
> drivers always look too small to me. Do they break, or is it really
> a good solution? Do the receptacles in the head wear much?
My experience with them is that they are a fantastic replacement
for phillips and straight head screws. I've replaced all the phillips
screws I could in the plane. They don't wear out and you can get
the appropriate amount of torque on the screw with practically
zero pressure. You can find the torx bits at any hardware store
that fit in the end of your mechanical screwdriver.
Good stuff.
> Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than
> Torx? If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x
> 1/2" screws?
http://www.rv7-a.com/Img_4909.jpg
--
Walter Tondu
http://www.rv7-a.com
Flying!
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8@msn.com>
Kevin,
I used countersunk SS Torx and button head SS Hex screws from MicroFasteners in
a number of applications on my -8. My experience with the Torx has been very
positive. The only problem I've encountered with the small Torx is that the
tools can twist if you torque them too much. This is usually only a problem with
tight nut plate fasteners. The button head hex screws on the other hand have
been a problem. The heads will strip very easily with even a slight amount
of pressure. It would be nice to find a button head Torx but I've had no luck.
Rick McBride
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Horton<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Torx head screws?
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>>
I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel
screws for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips
heads. MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no
experience with Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx
drivers always look too small to me. Do they break, or is it really
a good solution? Do the receptacles in the head wear much?
Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than
Torx? If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x
1/2" screws?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8<http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8>
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 2 Mar 2006, at 19:45, Richard McBride wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8@msn.com>
>
> Kevin,
>
> I used countersunk SS Torx and button head SS Hex screws from
> MicroFasteners in a number of applications on my -8. My experience
> with the Torx has been very positive. The only problem I've
> encountered with the small Torx is that the tools can twist if you
> torque them too much. This is usually only a problem with tight
> nut plate fasteners. The button head hex screws on the other hand
> have been a problem. The heads will strip very easily with even a
> slight amount of pressure. It would be nice to find a button head
> Torx but I've had no luck.
Thanks to Richard and Walter for the info.
Do these button head screws have Torx heads?
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm
The say "6 Lobe Drive", which is ambiguous to me. But that is the
same thing they call the 100 deg head ones, and they list a Torx size
in the listing:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCFCMXS.cfm
I've sent them an e-mail to ask, but I won't get the answer til
tomorrow.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Teflon hose for inverted fuel pickup? |
--> RV-List message posted by: LessDragProd@aol.com
Hi Kevin,
I just installed Teflon hoses in my RV-4+ fuel tanks. The Teflon hose is
slightly stiffer than the regular hose I had purchased from Van's. Since my
tanks aren't installed yet, I was able to observe the flop tube assembly moving
around in different tank positions. Looked good.
It's my understanding that Teflon is the only hose material that can be
expected to last when immersed in fuel. The other fuel hose materials
deteriorate over time when fully immersed.
The symptoms of a deteriorated flop tube hose are the same as having the
flop tube fall off the attach fitting. The sides of the hose become porous and
suck air as soon as the fuel level goes down far enough to expose the sides
of the flop tube. Perhaps at the 3 1/2 gallon level? (I helped fix a
Starduster that had this problem.)
There is a flare tube fitting on both ends of Van's hose with a flare tube
to NPT adapter to attach the flop weight.
I made my Teflon hoses with a flare tube fitting at one end and a NPT
fitting at the other end, so I could attach it directly to the flop tube weight.
This made the hose section slightly longer to get back a little flexibility.
I did have to make the hose assembly a 1/4" shorter than standard to clear
the internal fitting for my flush quick drain fitting. RV-4's are a pain to
build, compared to the QB's, but it is a little easier to make those little
nonstructural changes. :-)
Regards,
Jim Ayers
In a message dated 03/02/2006 3:28:17 PM Pacific Standard Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I'm wondering about replacing my inverted fuel pickup hose with a
Teflon one (e.g. Aeroquip 666) when I open that tank up for
inspection. The regular hoses should be replaced every once in a
while, which will be a lot more difficult if the hose is secured to
the elbow. A Teflon hose is supposedly good forever, if it is
protected from damage, like inside a fuel tank. That way I could put
it in and essentially forget about it. I would probably open the
tank up for a look every few years, but hopefully would never need to
replace anything.
I have no experience with Teflon lined hoses. I have several questions.
1. Is a Teflon hose as "floppy" as a regular hose? A too-stiff
inverted fuel pickup is no good.
2. I don't recall what the floppy end of the hose looks like. Does
it have a standard hose end fitting that the weighted pickup screws
to, or is it something custom?
3. Can I install the hose ends myself, or would I need to order a
custom hose? I would have expected Van to carry this as an option,
but they don't seem to.
4. Does anyone sell a ready-made Teflon hose that is just the right
length for an inverted fuel pickup on an RV-8, or would I need to
measure and order a custom one?
5. Is there any reason other than cost that I shouldn't use a Teflon
hose?
6. It is important to get the right length. I've never figured out
how the hose length is specified. The descriptions I have read talk
about measuring between mating surfaces. But the mated surfaces are
at a 37 degree angle. What do I measure to? Where can I find a
drawing or clear explanation?
Thanks,
Fly safe,
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Trotter <ptrotter@acm.org>
Kevin,
I believe that the 6 Lobe Drive usees the same tool as Torx heads. Torx is
probably a trade name like "Allen Head" vs hex head. I wish I had known you
wanted some a couple of days ago, Micro Fasteners had a booth at the lcoal
R/C show and I spent a little time talking to the owner. He had all the
products there and I could have grabbed some and sent them up to you. I've
bought from them before and they are great to deal with.
Paul
> Do these button head screws have Torx heads?
>
> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm
>
> The say "6 Lobe Drive", which is ambiguous to me. But that is the
> same thing they call the 100 deg head ones, and they list a Torx size
> in the listing:
>
> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCFCMXS.cfm
>
> I've sent them an e-mail to ask, but I won't get the answer til
> tomorrow.
>
> Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
> Ottawa, Canada
> http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
>
Message 16
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| Subject: | Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
Kevin, McMaster has it all. Just ordered the exact screw from them last
week. Also have very nice Hex Cap Screws if you like the raised look. This
is a real airplane store.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
Bill S
7a Wiring
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Horton
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 5:22 PM
Subject: RV-List: Torx head screws?
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel screws
for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips heads.
MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no experience with
Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx drivers always look too
small to me. Do they break, or is it really a good solution? Do the
receptacles in the head wear much?
Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than Torx?
If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x 1/2" screws?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
do not archive
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Walter Tondu <walter@tondu.com>
On 03/02 8:21, Kevin Horton wrote:
> Do these button head screws have Torx heads?
>
> http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm
I believe so. The "Torx" and "Torx-Plus" are brand patented
brand names and I believe the patent has expired on the Torx name
so 6 Lobe Drive is the same, only a different name, (I think).
Some information regarding Torx Plus.
http://www.semblex.com/products/licensed/TORX/pg2.cfm
--
Walter Tondu
http://www.rv7-a.com
Flying!
Message 18
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| Subject: | Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bill Schlatterer" <billschlatterer@sbcglobal.net>
Like I said, McMaster has it all. Check out cap screws and look at button
heads with Hex, Torx, Torx Tamper Proof, Regular, etc.
http://www.mcmaster.com/
I also ordered a bunch of button head #6 hex and found that my problem was
that you need a really good hex key and not one of the soft hardware store
variety. Having said that, I still didn't like the way they went in and out
and scrapped them. Now use all use standard hex heads almost everywhere.
Note that you can get them already drilled for safety wire but they are very
pricey.
Bill S
7a
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard McBride
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Torx head screws?
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8@msn.com>
Kevin,
I used countersunk SS Torx and button head SS Hex screws from MicroFasteners
in a number of applications on my -8. My experience with the Torx has been
very positive. The only problem I've encountered with the small Torx is
that the tools can twist if you torque them too much. This is usually only
a problem with tight nut plate fasteners. The button head hex screws on the
other hand have been a problem. The heads will strip very easily with even
a slight amount of pressure. It would be nice to find a button head Torx
but I've had no luck.
Rick McBride
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Horton<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 6:21 PM
Subject: RV-List: Torx head screws?
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton
<khorton01@rogers.com<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>>
I want to order a bunch of round head and countersunk stainless steel
screws for non-structural applications. I don't want Phillips
heads. MicroFasteners sells Torx headed ones. I have next to no
experience with Torx. Is this a good long term solution? The Torx
drivers always look too small to me. Do they break, or is it really
a good solution? Do the receptacles in the head wear much?
Is a hex drive head (e.g. for an Allen wrench) a better solution than
Torx? If so, who sells suitable 100 degree and round head SS #8 x
1/2" screws?
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8<http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8>
do not archive
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8@msn.com>
Kevin,
I looked at my invoices and the item numbers for the button head hex screws I purchased
were SBSxxxx. The countersunk torx were all FCMXSxxxx item numbers.
It appears from the description that the ones you're looking at (SBXS) are torx.
Please let us know what you find out. If they are, I'm going to start replacing
all my hex screws.
Rick McBride
----- Original Message -----
From: Kevin Horton<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>
To: rv-list@matronics.com<mailto:rv-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Torx head screws?
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com<mailto:khorton01@rogers.com>>
On 2 Mar 2006, at 19:45, Richard McBride wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Richard McBride" <rickrv8@msn.com<mailto:rickrv8@msn.com>>
>
> Kevin,
>
> I used countersunk SS Torx and button head SS Hex screws from
> MicroFasteners in a number of applications on my -8. My experience
> with the Torx has been very positive. The only problem I've
> encountered with the small Torx is that the tools can twist if you
> torque them too much. This is usually only a problem with tight
> nut plate fasteners. The button head hex screws on the other hand
> have been a problem. The heads will strip very easily with even a
> slight amount of pressure. It would be nice to find a button head
> Torx but I've had no luck.
Thanks to Richard and Walter for the info.
Do these button head screws have Torx heads?
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm<http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCSBXS.cfm>
The say "6 Lobe Drive", which is ambiguous to me. But that is the
same thing they call the 100 deg head ones, and they list a Torx size
in the listing:
http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCFCMXS.cfm<http://www.microfasteners.com/catalog/products/SSCFCMXS.cfm>
I've sent them an e-mail to ask, but I won't get the answer til
tomorrow.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8<http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8>
Message 20
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| Subject: | FI and manual elevator trim |
--> RV-List message posted by: Mike Corder <mike.corder@micor-research.com>
I'm building an RV-7A with fuel injection and manual elevator trim. It
looks to me like there's big time interference between these two right
below the fuel selector plate. If anyone can point me to how they
handled this, I'd appreciate it.
--
Regards,
m
____________________________
mike.corder@micor-research.com
Cell 831-239-0915
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Hi Kevin- when are ya gonna git that darn RV FINISHED?!
My parents bestowed upon me the name Mark ALLEN PHILLIPS, and if there is ANY
reason to NOT use phillips head fasteners, I will be first to stand up and
say NAY! There is a BETTER WAY! Do the torx thing- Microfasteners has lots of
my $$$ and I am pleased to report it was $$$ well spint- these things are like
that stupid little purple bunny- they keep going..............
When I was working on my wheel pants (for example) I had the stupid things
on/off/on/off/on/off (you know the drill) a rediculous amount of times- had I
been using phillips instead of torx, I would have most likely replaced the
screws after every 3 or 4 applications- with the torx, I used the original ones
every time until after finish paint when new ones were installed. Best part is
that they will hang onto the bit without magic magnetism, and will not wear
out. One thing to be wary of is that the bit will break off in the screw before
the screw will strip (built-in torque limits!) which you DON'T want to happen-
did this to one of my tank screws and it was a MAJOR bitch to extract! I use
a simple, cheap cordless B&D screwdriver with the torque limit set to
appropriate limits- works great!
Oh yeah- there are maybe 8 phillips screws on my plane, only because they
were all I could find for the application- there are MANY Allen screws- like the
stainless ones on my tank access plates.................... 8-)
>From The PossumWorks in TN
Mark ALLEN PHILLIPS, RV-6A N51PW, 280 hours:
http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
Message 22
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| Subject: | Grrrr... Service Bulletin |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Kyle Boatright" <kboatright1@comcast.net>
I ordered 2 new fuel pick-up tubes from Van's to replace the ones I fabricated
years ago, before Van's made them for you. I thought buying new ones would save
me a day of back and forth from the airport to the shop to modify my pick-up's
to meet the SB.
Unfortunately, the ones Van's sent are not in compliance with the SB, so I'm out
$35 and am still going to have to modify a set of fuel pick-ups...
Sometimes you just can't win.
By the way, I had a bird strike the other day. Didn't see or hear anything during
the flight, but I was wiping down the airplane later and noticed a few little
feathers on the leading edge of the prop, out near the tip. Thankfully, there
was no damage, nor was there any other sign of the bird.
I guess I only winged him...
KB
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 03/02/2006 7:28:44 PM Central Standard Time,
khorton01@rogers.com writes:
The say "6 Lobe Drive", which is ambiguous to me. But that is the
same thing they call the 100 deg head ones, and they list a Torx size
in the listing:
>>>
Man, I can only hope so- then I can replace the rest of the phillips screws
on my plane! You WILL let us know what the say!
Mark Phillips and do not archive
Message 24
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| Subject: | Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Larry Bowen" <Larry@BowenAero.com>
I started with many torx head screws for the same reason everyone else did,
but I'm actually migrating back to SS phillips head screws. They are as
durable as the torx screws. I'm never sure exactly where my torx bits are
-- but I know I have a three dozen #2 phillips screwdrivers scattered
around. I still like and use hex cap screws where they make sense, but for
flush applications I no longer see an advantage using the torx screws. They
just add complexity. Just my opinion...
-
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fiveonepw@aol.com [mailto:Fiveonepw@aol.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2006 10:19 PM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Torx head screws?
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> Hi Kevin- when are ya gonna git that darn RV FINISHED?!
>
> My parents bestowed upon me the name Mark ALLEN PHILLIPS, and
> if there is ANY reason to NOT use phillips head fasteners, I
> will be first to stand up and say NAY! There is a BETTER
> WAY! Do the torx thing- Microfasteners has lots of my $$$
> and I am pleased to report it was $$$ well spint- these
> things are like that stupid little purple bunny- they keep
> going..............
>
> When I was working on my wheel pants (for example) I had the
> stupid things on/off/on/off/on/off (you know the drill) a
> rediculous amount of times- had I been using phillips instead
> of torx, I would have most likely replaced the screws after
> every 3 or 4 applications- with the torx, I used the original
> ones every time until after finish paint when new ones were
> installed. Best part is that they will hang onto the bit
> without magic magnetism, and will not wear out. One thing to
> be wary of is that the bit will break off in the screw before
> the screw will strip (built-in torque limits!) which you
> DON'T want to happen- did this to one of my tank screws and
> it was a MAJOR bitch to extract! I use a simple, cheap
> cordless B&D screwdriver with the torque limit set to
> appropriate limits- works great!
>
> Oh yeah- there are maybe 8 phillips screws on my plane, only
> because they were all I could find for the application- there
> are MANY Allen screws- like the stainless ones on my tank
> access plates.................... 8-)
>
> >From The PossumWorks in TN
> Mark ALLEN PHILLIPS, RV-6A N51PW, 280 hours:
> http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
>
>
>
>
> Photoshare, and much much more:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
In a message dated 3/2/2006 7:23:39 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
Fiveonepw@aol.com writes:
My parents bestowed upon me the name Mark ALLEN PHILLIPS
===================================
Talk about get screwed at birth ;o)
At least they had the good sense not to christen you Square Drive.or Tamper
Resistant.
Do not archive
GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 774hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
Kevin:
Another alternative is Pozi drive. Although you should theoretically use a
Pozi driver with a Pozi screw, a Phillips driver will work, and is a lot more
likely to be available in a pinch than a Torx driver. The advantage of Pozi
over Phillips is that Pozi is not designed to "torque out" the way Phillips is,
so stuck screws are a lot less likely. In that respect, Pozi is much like
Torx.
For my money, Pozi screws are almost as nice as Torx. But Torx screws may be a
little easier to find.
---
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Torx head screws? |
--> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com
Hi all,
Way back at the beginning of this thread, Kevin said: for non-structural
applications. I have been scratching my head about what that actually means.
Clearly, screwing on the instrument panel is non-structural. How about screws
that hold on the wingtips, fuel tanks, fuel tank access plate, fuel senders,
cockpit floor, wing access panels, etc.? As far as I have sorted out (and I am
a
newbie working on the fuel tanks now) most of the "structural fasteners" on
the plane are rivets and bolts. Not entirely sure where the non-structural
screws are going.
I am a big fan of torx heads, using them on RC and automobiles where ever
possible. What do you guys think are safe applications?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
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Message 28
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| Subject: | Sealing Tank Access Covers |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DEAN PSIROPOULOS" <dean.psiropoulos@verizon.net>
Ok guys call me ignorant but I have not yet installed my finished tanks (for
the last time) and filled them with fuel. My access covers came from Van's
with CORK gaskets! Someone on this list mentioned using fuel tank nutplates
with built in O-rings when building their tanks to eliminate the need for
pro-seal on the screw heads. I can't do that because I didn't know about
them when building my tanks BUT, I can use special access cover screws with
O-rings built into the heads to achieve the same goal.
Why not use the cork (or some synthetic rubber that's gasoline resistant)
along with some appropriate gasket sealer AND the access plate screws with
the O-rings in order to.....ELIMINATE THE HEADACHES MOST OF YOU ARE GOING
THROUGH WITH PRO-SEALED ACCESS COVERS????
By using the pro-seal you have created an obvious DETRIMENT to easy access
and I'm sure that's part of the reason some of you are groaning so loudly.
I know, I know, it'll never leak with the pro-seal but this the SECOND
bulletin in 5 years concerning something INSIDE the tanks (the first being
the anti-rotation bracket). Obviously one cannot count on NEVER having to
take the access cover off so let's find a less painful method than the
pro-seal!!! There has to be a better way!! As I said, I'm ignorant about
how good this will work because I have not experienced it. Those of you who
have used the cork (or synthetic rubber) with gasket seal know the
answer...educate me. Thanks.
Dean Psiropoulos
RV-6A N197DM
Autocad and Tefzel
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