Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:08 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Tom & Cathy Ervin)
2. 04:15 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (RGray67968@aol.com)
3. 04:45 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
4. 04:55 AM - Re: Tip tanks (Ralph E. Capen)
5. 04:58 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta))
6. 05:04 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Stephen J. Soule)
7. 05:04 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Alex Peterson)
8. 05:25 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Alex Peterson)
9. 05:42 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
10. 06:04 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Larry Bowen)
11. 06:20 AM - CS prop slinging grease (sturdy@att.net)
12. 07:00 AM - Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
13. 07:41 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Peter Mather)
14. 08:04 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
15. 08:28 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Gerry Filby)
16. 08:31 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
17. 08:43 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dan Checkoway)
18. 08:50 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
19. 08:56 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
20. 09:07 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Rob Prior (rv7))
21. 09:15 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
22. 09:33 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Ron Lee)
23. 09:54 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
24. 10:28 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
25. 10:37 AM - RV-4 Heat Retrofit (Paul Besing)
26. 10:40 AM - Third Annual RV FlyIn Cookout on Saturday, March 25th (Ken Harrill)
27. 11:37 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dwight Frye)
28. 11:58 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Sherman Butler)
29. 12:10 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
30. 12:10 PM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Michael Robbins)
31. 12:12 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Hopperdhh@aol.com)
32. 12:19 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
33. 01:02 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Richard Tasker)
34. 01:50 PM - ANR's and deafness (Dave Mader)
35. 01:50 PM - jetblue aftermath (Dave Mader)
36. 02:29 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (Dan Checkoway)
37. 02:48 PM - Re: Spouse afraid to fly (Kysh)
38. 03:08 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (Tedd McHenry)
39. 03:26 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Albert Gardner)
40. 03:28 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dave Nellis)
41. 04:17 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net (Bob Collins))
42. 04:40 PM - for sale (Jim Blake)
43. 04:55 PM - Tite Seal (rveighta)
44. 06:04 PM - Re: Tite Seal (Richard Dudley)
45. 06:13 PM - Re: Tite Seal (SteinAir, Inc.)
46. 06:41 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (G McNutt)
47. 06:42 PM - RV-8 For Sale (Jim Cimino)
48. 07:20 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Jim Carlton)
49. 07:26 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" <tcervin@valkyrie.net>
Mike, My Hartzel sat in a box for 3 years and works fine. No leaks or
issues.
Tom
in Ohio (RV6-A...362CT)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark E Navratil" <czechsix@juno.com>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 10:11 PM
Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil <czechsix@juno.com>
>
> Guys,
>
> I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out
> some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and
> get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe
> Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months
> the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of
> course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this
> wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two
> years before I first ran the engine...
>
> I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering,
> has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away?
> I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub
> occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real
> pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these
> seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the
> work done?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup
> afterwards....
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My didn't have anything
to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was remove the spinner and retorque all
the hub bolts. A couple of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and
these were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued the slinging
ceased for me.
Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building up inside of
the spinner before it worked it's way out of the prop root cutouts and was
able to fly back to the windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your
spinner real good and remove any grease that may be present before you replace
the spinner.
For the archives
Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 completed, RV4
finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket under construction
_http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_
(http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/)
Guys,
I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out
some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and
get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe
Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months
the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of
course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this
wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two
years before I first ran the engine...
I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering,
has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away?
I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub
occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real
pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these
seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the
work done?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup
afterwards
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I
first flew my -7A. At first I was going to put in roll pins like a Cessna
150, but decided on a different solution which has worked very well.
I made a steel sleeve about 3/4 inch OD to put between the bearing spacers
on the axle bolt inside of the wheel. Once this sleeve was fine tuned to the
correct length, I could tighten the axle bolt to full torque without actually
having the bearings support the bolt tension. To support the sleeve while
taking the nose wheel on and off, I have a length of 3/8 inch rod that gets
pushed through when installing the axle bolt. This rod is a little shorter
than the distance between the forks.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A Flying 148 hours
Message 4
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" <recapen@earthlink.net>
I've done the plumbing - not flying yet. Johansen tanks purchased from Vans -
plumbed in to the outboard bay of the main tank with a check valve.
Zap me offline and I'll send some photos....I recently sent out the same photos
to someone else.....
Ralph
-----Original Message-----
>From: Trevor Mills <millstrj@ozemail.com.au>
>Sent: Mar 20, 2006 5:14 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Tip tanks
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Trevor Mills" <millstrj@ozemail.com.au>
>
>I would like to know how anybody has plumbed tip tanks to the mains. Any photo's
or even where and how would be a great help thanks.
>
>Trevor. 80605
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" <mstewart@iss.net>
Ditto for me.
Mine looked like it was build-up from the grease fittings, which I
replaced, before figuring out it was the hub bolts.
Do not archive.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
RGray67968@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease
--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My didn't have
anything
to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was remove the spinner and retorque
all
the hub bolts. A couple of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner
and
these were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued the
slinging
ceased for me.
Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building up inside
of
the spinner before it worked it's way out of the prop root cutouts and
was
able to fly back to the windsreen......make sure you check the inside of
your
spinner real good and remove any grease that may be present before you
replace
the spinner.
For the archives
Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 completed, RV4
finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket under construction
_http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_
(http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/)
Guys,
I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging
out
some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and
get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe
Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18
months
the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak.
Of
course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this
wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two
years before I first ran the engine...
I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm
wondering,
has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away?
I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the
hub
occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real
pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these
seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the
work done?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup
afterwards
Message 6
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| Subject: | Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule@pfclaw.com>
Dan,
This sounds interesting. What did you use for the stock from which you made
the sleeve?
Steve Soule
Vermont
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I
first flew my -7A.
Message 7
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| Subject: | CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Mark, good advice from Rick, I had the same experience. There was a pile of
grease inside the spinner, presumably from outside the seal, but within the
hub. This grease worked its way out of the prop during the first handful of
hours, but then slowly crept out of the spinner. My prop did, however, need
resealing around 500 hours/3 years. If you should need to reseal, there are
two shops in this general area. One is Maxwell at Crystal airport in
Minneapolis, and the other is Midwest Props in Kenosha, WI. Both of these
shops will tell you that there are two problems with Hartzell factory props
- one is that they use a non O-ring seal, some sort of non circular section
seal. These shops will use O-rings instead, as did Hartzell in the past.
The other problem is that the grease that is used by Hartzell is Aeroshell 6
for extremely cold operations, i.e., lower viscosity. They both recommend
using the higher viscosity grease Aeroshell 5 after reseal.
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 729 hours
Maple Grove, MN
> --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
>
>
> Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My
> didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was
> remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple
> of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these
> were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued
> the slinging ceased for me.
>
> Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building
> up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of
> the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the
> windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner
> real good and remove any grease that may be present before
> you replace the spinner.
>
> For the archives
>
> Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8
> completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket
> under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_
> (http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil <czechsix@juno.com>
>
> Guys (those of you with a nosedragger),
>
SNIP
> Personally I think the whole design is a bit iffy from the
> perspective that there's a very small margin between having
> enough pressure to keep the spacers from turning without so
> much pressure the that rotational friction on the
> bearings/seals is excessive. It makes me wonder how many
> people are flying around out there with the wheel pants on,
> completely unaware that the spacers are spinning away while
> the bearings are doing nothing. On the other hand, if the
> rotational friction is excessive it
> *may* have contributed to some of the bent nose gear
> incidents that have occurred in recent years. It's pretty
> scary watching the nosegear at high speed, even during a good
> landing....the more rotational friction, the further the gear
> is going to bend back/under when it first makes contact at
> high speed. I think I'll disassemble the whole thing, check
> the bearings for overheating, repack them, put screws in
> through the fork/spacer assembly, and tighten it up until it
> feels "about right".
>
> Any comments/experience from others with this assembly would
> be appreciated. FWIW, I understand that the -6A's had a
> different design (which some local RVators consider to be
> superior to the current design...).
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Mark Navratil
> Cedar Rapids, Iowa
> RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours
Mark, am I correct in understanding that on the newer (non 6A) nosewheel
designs that the tapered roller bearings take the load from the axle bolt?
If so, this is a terrible design. The 6A has a stout, hollow aluminum tube
taking the load between the two larger hollow cylinders which directly touch
the fork. This is as Dan has described that he did on his 7A. On my 6A, I
could tighten the axle bolt until it breaks, and the wheel bearings will not
be affected.
Please tell me that the new design doesn't simply have the bolt mash the
bearings with nothing in between, although I heard this also from a local
builder. This simply isn't acceptable. Put a thrust tube in between, and
use some shim stock to tweak it in. Van makes the best product available,
but sometimes I feel they put more emphasis on hiring people with airplane
building experience and not engineering.
It is easy to imagine bad things happening when things in that assembly
deflect under load...
Alex Peterson
RV6-A N66AP 729 hours
Maple Grove, MN
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Steve,
The spacer is made of mild steel rod. Aluminum would be OK, I think.
Actually, I had help. The idea should be credited to a local craftsman named
Carl
McCain. He first used the idea on an RV-9A. From another post I see that
the 6A used something similar, and that it is good engineering practice. Glad
to see I wasn't flamed right away!
Dan
RV-7A
N766DH
In a message dated 3/21/2006 8:05:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
SSoule@pfclaw.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" <SSoule@pfclaw.com>
Dan,
This sounds interesting. What did you use for the stock from which you made
the sleeve?
Steve Soule
Vermont
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I
first flew my -7A.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: Larry Bowen <Larry@BowenAero.com>
My H. prop was resealed under warrenty because the quad seal was twisted
during original assembly at the factory -- which resulted in a leak at
the root of the prop. I haven't heard of the o-ring and grease issues
mentioned below....interesting.
More here:
http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2005/06/prop_seal.html
--
Larry Bowen
Larry@BowenAero.com
http://BowenAero.com
Alex Peterson wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
>
> Mark, good advice from Rick, I had the same experience. There was a pile of
> grease inside the spinner, presumably from outside the seal, but within the
> hub. This grease worked its way out of the prop during the first handful of
> hours, but then slowly crept out of the spinner. My prop did, however, need
> resealing around 500 hours/3 years. If you should need to reseal, there are
> two shops in this general area. One is Maxwell at Crystal airport in
> Minneapolis, and the other is Midwest Props in Kenosha, WI. Both of these
> shops will tell you that there are two problems with Hartzell factory props
> - one is that they use a non O-ring seal, some sort of non circular section
> seal. These shops will use O-rings instead, as did Hartzell in the past.
> The other problem is that the grease that is used by Hartzell is Aeroshell 6
> for extremely cold operations, i.e., lower viscosity. They both recommend
> using the higher viscosity grease Aeroshell 5 after reseal.
>
> Alex Peterson
> RV6-A N66AP 729 hours
> Maple Grove, MN
>
>
>
>
>>--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com
>>
>>
>>Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My
>>didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was
>>remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple
>>of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these
>>were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued
>>the slinging ceased for me.
>>
>>Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building
>>up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of
>>the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the
>>windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner
>>real good and remove any grease that may be present before
>>you replace the spinner.
>>
>>For the archives
>>
>>Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8
>>completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket
>>under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_
>>(http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: sturdy@att.net
After the residual grease stopped slinging within the first few hours on my RV-8,
CS Hartzell, I had about 140 hrs when it started slinging again. I took the
spinner off and could see the grease trail coming from the parting surface on
one side between two of the three bolts. I called Hartzell, told them when
I started flying it (still under the one year warranty from first flight) and
how many hours I had on it, and they paid for a reseal under warranty at Jordan
Propellor. I watched when Jordan took it apart, you could definitely see where
the white sealant between the parting surfaces was very thin at that area
where the leak was. No problems since reseal with 950 hours.
Stu McCurdy
RV-8 Flying
RV-3 Flying
-----------------------------------------------------
Time: 09:16:44 PM PST US
Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease
From: Mark E Navratil <czechsix@juno.com>
--> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil <czechsix@juno.com>
Guys,
I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out
some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and
get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe
Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months
the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of
course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this
wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two
years before I first ran the engine...
I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering,
has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away?
I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub
occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real
pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these
seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the
work done?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
<!-- BEGIN WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
<!-- WEBMAIL STATIONERY noneset -->
After the residual grease stopped slinging within the first few hours on my RV-8,
CS Hartzell, I had about 140 hrs when it started slinging again. I took the
spinner off and could see the grease trail coming from the parting surface on
one side between two of the three bolts. I called Hartzell, told them when I
started flying it (still under the one year warranty from first flight) and how
many hours I had on it, and they paid for a reseal under warranty at Jordan
Propellor. I watched whenJordan took it apart, you could definitely see where
the white sealant between the parting surfaces was very thin at that area where
the leak was. No problems since reseal with 950 hours.
Stu McCurdy
RV-8 Flying
RV-3 Flying
-----------------------------------------------------
Time: 09:16:44 PM PST US
Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease
From: Mark E Navratil czechsix@juno.com
-- RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil czechsix@juno.com
Guys,
I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out
some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and
get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe
Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months
the seals will dry out and need to be replaced b
ecause
they'll leak. Of
course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this
wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two
years before I first ran the engine...
I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering,
has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away?
I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub
occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real
pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these
seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the
work done?
Thanks,
--Mark Navratil
<!-- END WEBMAIL STATIONERY -->
Message 12
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my last
one (un-fluting), but here goes.
Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became apparent
after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is no
way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been
trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge -
if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special
case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting).
The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly?
Paul
9A QB #1176
HS, VS done
Message 13
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
Paul
It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the rudder
so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin edge. I didn't see
any significant enlargement when I did it although it is very marginal. Given
the double headed rivets it probably doesn't matter if the hole is slightly
enlarged although it is obviously important that the dimples in both skins sit
cleanly into the wedge. Do use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting
and let it set properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge.
Best regards
Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
> Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my last
> one (un-fluting), but here goes.
>
>
>
> Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became apparent
> after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is no
> way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been
> trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge -
> if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special
> case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting).
> The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly?
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> 9A QB #1176
>
> HS, VS done
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 14
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there
is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes
some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably
larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin
dimples do fit perfectly.
Thanks for the response.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
Paul
It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the
rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin
edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it
is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't
matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously
important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do
use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set
properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge.
Best regards
Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600
>
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
> Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my
last
> one (un-fluting), but here goes.
>
>
>
> Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became
apparent
> after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is
no
> way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been
> trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge -
> if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special
> case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting).
> The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly?
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> 9A QB #1176
>
> HS, VS done
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 15
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
The wedge was pre-punched ? I'm assuming only the skins were
pre punched and you match drilled into the wedge. I think what
Paul is saying is that you need to re-position the wedge
further AFT relative to the skins, that way you will be
countersinking into the thicker section of the wedge. Which
may necessitate you replacing the wedge.
I had a a similar issue although perhaps not as pronounced. I
bonded my trailing edges with T-88 epoxy which made them a lot
stronger. Maybe post a picture ?
g
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
> Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
> match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
>
> Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there
> is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes
> some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably
> larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin
> dimples do fit perfectly.
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
>
> Paul
>
> It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the
> rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin
> edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it
> is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't
> matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously
> important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do
> use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set
> properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge.
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
> > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600
> >
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> > <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> >
> > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my
> last
> > one (un-fluting), but here goes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became
> apparent
> > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is
> no
> > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been
> > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge -
> > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special
> > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting).
> > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly?
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > 9A QB #1176
> >
> > HS, VS done
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
Message 16
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Mark, Charlie, Alex & Dan-
I've got the same problem as Mark on my -6A. Having to leave the nut on the
axle bolt looser than spec just so the wheel turns has "worked" for almost 300
hours, but still makes me nervous- grateful for this discussion! When Mark
sent the original post, I dragged out dwg. 62 from my preview plans and it
shows the older style Cleveland wheel- there is a long aluminum "axle" (U-609)
that is trapped between the fork halves and allows the bolt to be properly
tightened, and thus no side-load on the bearings. My nosewheel sounds just like
Mark's, with the separate spool on each side. Does anyone have the actual
drawing (not preview) that shows the current (Matco) configuration and does it
show
a spacer between the two spools?
The way Dan fixed it almost sounds like a no-brainer and would explain a lot,
but I'm really wondering how many of us "sissies" are out there with a bogus
nosewheel arrangement because the design was changed and the prints were
either not updated or wrong? (spacer omitted?)
By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does
this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire rotational
resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear
which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did seem to
help that problem considerably, though...
Mark Phillips
Message 17
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|
| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
> match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
Was the AEX wedge drilled from the factory, or did you match drill it using
the holes in the skin? If the wedge itself came drilled from the factory,
then you're right...not much choice in the matter. If the wedge had no
holes in it when you started, then it's possible you located it too far
forward when you drilled it...which shifts the holes toward the thin end of
the wedge...but it's NOT a huge deal.
Take a look at the flap brace on the RV-7/8 and you'll see that it gets
countersunk between the dimpled wing skin and the untouched flap hinge.
Those c-sink'd holes end up huge. It's OK because that layer is sandwiched
between other layers.
Take a look at the left elevator rear spar, trim tab spar, etc. Same deal.
Stuff gets c-sunk and enlarged, and it's OK because it's sandwiched between
at least two other layers that don't have enlarged holes.
I may be mistaken, but I believe Van's mentions this scenario in the
construction manual. In any case, your rivet's manufactured & shop heads
are both bearing against un-enlarged material. My 2 cents is, rivet that
sucker and press on. If you have any doubts, call Van's Builder's
Assistance (503-678-6545, no wonder how I can just spout that from
*memory*!) and they'll probably tell you the same thing.
At least that's my 2 cents...hope it puts you at ease.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Mark,
The shimmy problem is usually due to too free of swivel of the castoring
nose wheel. My gear leg had a problem that would lead to abnormal wear causing
this joint to become loose. The collar at the top was not square to the
bearing. I forget the exact arrangement right now, but I filed a long time
getting it to meet over the whole area. Part of the bend of the gear leg actually
went below the collar -- not a perfect situation! I have never had a shimmy
problem when the castor nut was tightened to spec. High tire pressure would
also aggravate shimmy. I run about 32 psi. This seems high but I have the
200 hp angle valve engine.
Dan Hopper
RV-7A Flying 149 hours
In a message dated 3/21/2006 11:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
Fiveonepw@aol.com writes:
=04????=1Bmip://02bb2b68/default.html ????=1Bmip://02bb2b68/default.html =20=0E=E4=84=80
=0FQ=C3=80=13=01=14=15=17?--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Mark, Charlie, Alex & Dan-
I've got the same problem as Mark on my -6A. Having to leave the nut on the
axle bolt looser than spec just so the wheel turns has "worked" for almost
300
hours, but still makes me nervous- grateful for this discussion! When Mark
sent the original post, I dragged out dwg. 62 from my preview plans and it
shows the older style Cleveland wheel- there is a long aluminum "axle"
(U-609)
that is trapped between the fork halves and allows the bolt to be properly=20
tightened, and thus no side-load on the bearings. My nosewheel sounds just
like
Mark's, with the separate spool on each side. Does anyone have the actual
drawing (not preview) that shows the current (Matco) configuration and does
it show
a spacer between the two spools?
The way Dan fixed it almost sounds like a no-brainer and would explain a
lot,
but I'm really wondering how many of us "sissies" are out there with a bogus
nosewheel arrangement because the design was changed and the prints were
either not updated or wrong? (spacer omitted?)
By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does
this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire
rotational
resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear
which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did seem
to
help that problem considerably, though...
Mark Phillips
Message 19
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Yes, the wedge was indeed pre-punched.
I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I
don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told
enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Filby
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby <gerf@gerf.com>
The wedge was pre-punched ? I'm assuming only the skins were
pre punched and you match drilled into the wedge. I think what
Paul is saying is that you need to re-position the wedge
further AFT relative to the skins, that way you will be
countersinking into the thicker section of the wedge. Which
may necessitate you replacing the wedge.
I had a a similar issue although perhaps not as pronounced. I
bonded my trailing edges with T-88 epoxy which made them a lot
stronger. Maybe post a picture ?
g
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
> Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
> match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
>
> Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there
> is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the
holes
> some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite
noticeably
> larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin
> dimples do fit perfectly.
>
> Thanks for the response.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" <peter@mather.com>
>
> Paul
>
> It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into
the
> rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin
> edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although
it
> is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't
> matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously
> important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge.
Do
> use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set
> properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge.
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> > To: rv-list@matronics.com
> > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
> > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600
> >
> >
> > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> > <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> >
> > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my
> last
> > one (un-fluting), but here goes.
> >
> >
> >
> > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became
> apparent
> > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There
is
> no
> > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've
been
> > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge
-
> > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a
special
> > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting).
> > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this
correctly?
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > 9A QB #1176
> >
> > HS, VS done
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
__g__
==========================================================
Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com
Tel: 415 203 9177
Message 20
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
wrote:
> I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I
> don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told
> enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here.
Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave the other side
square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to be a lot stronger. If
you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and finding that the
countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a knife-edge around the
hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life.
On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square heads on the underside.
-Rob
Message 21
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Thanks, Dan. These were mostly my thoughts as well (both rivet heads
are secure and the TE is just squeezed in) but I thought I should ask.
(Having finally ruined my first part recently (and a skin at that), I
think I may be "erring" hard on the side of caution lately.)
This section of the instructions doesn't speak to this issue, and, I
just reviewed section 5 as well, on countersinking, and didn't see it
addressed there either. Perhaps it is in there somewhere. Or maybe
this is something that's assumed to be obvious. :-}
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:41 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
> match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
Was the AEX wedge drilled from the factory, or did you match drill it
using
the holes in the skin? If the wedge itself came drilled from the
factory,
then you're right...not much choice in the matter. If the wedge had no
holes in it when you started, then it's possible you located it too far
forward when you drilled it...which shifts the holes toward the thin end
of
the wedge...but it's NOT a huge deal.
Take a look at the flap brace on the RV-7/8 and you'll see that it gets
countersunk between the dimpled wing skin and the untouched flap hinge.
Those c-sink'd holes end up huge. It's OK because that layer is
sandwiched
between other layers.
Take a look at the left elevator rear spar, trim tab spar, etc. Same
deal.
Stuff gets c-sunk and enlarged, and it's OK because it's sandwiched
between
at least two other layers that don't have enlarged holes.
I may be mistaken, but I believe Van's mentions this scenario in the
construction manual. In any case, your rivet's manufactured & shop
heads
are both bearing against un-enlarged material. My 2 cents is, rivet
that
sucker and press on. If you have any doubts, call Van's Builder's
Assistance (503-678-6545, no wonder how I can just spout that from
*memory*!) and they'll probably tell you the same thing.
At least that's my 2 cents...hope it puts you at ease.
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 22
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee <ronlee@pcisys.net>
>By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does
>this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire
>rotational
>resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear
>which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did
>seem to
>help that problem considerably, though...
I thought I had a nose wheel shimmy problem and tried many things to fix it.
It was not until I had someone videotape me taxiing that it led to the real
problem being an unbalanced nosewheel/tire assembly.
Ron Lee
Message 23
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|
| Subject: | Re: Nosewheel bearing question |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 3/21/06 10:53:19 AM Central Standard Time,
Hopperdhh@aol.com writes:
> The shimmy problem is usually due to too free of swivel of the castoring
> nose wheel.
>>>
After watching a guy in another -6A land at a gas stop a couple of years ago
with his nosewheel slamming furiously from stop to stop (he didn't even
realize it was happening!!) I'm pretty meticulous about the tension- it's been
checked several times with the fish scale and by "feel" anytime the nose it up
and
has only been adjusted once since new. I WILL check squareness at top busing
as you suggest, but balancing the new tire seems to have helped the most-
also, I have no stiffeners on the leg, FWIW...
Thanks, Dan-
Mark
Message 24
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| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
enlarged by the countersinking?
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Prior (rv7)
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" <rv7@b4.ca>
On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul"
<PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
wrote:
> I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I
> don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told
> enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here.
Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave the other side
square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to be a lot stronger.
If
you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and finding that the
countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a knife-edge around the
hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life.
On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square heads on the
underside.
-Rob
Message 25
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| Subject: | RV-4 Heat Retrofit |
--> RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing <pbesing@yahoo.com>
My RV-4 doesn't have heat. I'd like to add heat to
it, and was wondering which selector box from Van's
works the best on a -4 for fitting, placement, etc.
I'd also entertain putting a duct to the back seat,
but understand it might be difficult on a completed
airplane.
Thanks in advance.
Paul Besing
Message 26
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|
| Subject: | Third Annual RV FlyIn Cookout on Saturday, March 25th |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Harrill" <kharrill@osa.state.sc.us>
The Palmetto Wing of Van's Air Force
Invites any and all RV pilots/flyers/builders and EAA members
To the Third Annual
PALMETTO RV FLYIN COOKOUT
Saturday, March 25 - 11:00 AM
Rain date March 26 - 1:30 PM
Columbia Downtown Owens Field Airport - Columbia, SC
For details see:
[url]http://www.eaa242.org/News/The%20Third%20Palmetto%20RVFlyIn-Cookout.mht
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23189#23189
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Paul,
Well ... I don't want to -swear- to it, but I do believe I had a bit of
hole enlargement when I c'sunk mine. I just did it a few months ago, even
though I'm close to finishing my fuselage, because I got my original small
rudder replaced by Van's ... but at the time was busy with other things and
just stuck it on the shelf until a good time to assemble it. That "good time"
finally arrived back in November. :)
At the time my thinking was (a) the holes are pre-punched so I can't make
any adjustments there and (b) it is going to be tightly sandwiched between
the two skins and (c) it'll be held firmly in place with proseal for added
measure. Thus ... I didn't give it much thought.
If in doubt, call Van's. (I need to give 'em a call on another issue myself
sometime today or tomorrow.)
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Tue Mar 21 13:24:39 2006, Folbrecht, Paul wrote :
>Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
>
>I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
>(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
>enlarged by the countersinking?
Message 28
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| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and fill the void.
I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets with a hand squeezer
with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on the list mentioned he did
his that way, and it worked well.)
"Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote: --> RV-List message
posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
enlarged by the countersinking?
Do not archive
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 29
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| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
It seems I probably worried about this a bit too much.
(But, when you're new to metal working, and you read things like how
failing to debur can cause stress cracks that can bring your airplane
down hundreds of hours later, you want to make sure all the t's are
crossed and so forth... :-})
Do not archive
P.S. Yes I realize no single crack is going to cause a structural
failure unless it goes unchecked for a very long time...
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye <dwight@openweave.org>
Paul,
Well ... I don't want to -swear- to it, but I do believe I had a bit of
hole enlargement when I c'sunk mine. I just did it a few months ago,
even
though I'm close to finishing my fuselage, because I got my original
small
rudder replaced by Van's ... but at the time was busy with other things
and
just stuck it on the shelf until a good time to assemble it. That "good
time"
finally arrived back in November. :)
At the time my thinking was (a) the holes are pre-punched so I can't
make
any adjustments there and (b) it is going to be tightly sandwiched
between
the two skins and (c) it'll be held firmly in place with proseal for
added
measure. Thus ... I didn't give it much thought.
If in doubt, call Van's. (I need to give 'em a call on another issue
myself
sometime today or tomorrow.)
-- Dwight
do not archive
On Tue Mar 21 13:24:39 2006, Folbrecht, Paul wrote :
>Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
>
>I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
>(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
>enlarged by the countersinking?
Message 30
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| Subject: | CS prop slinging grease |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Robbins" <robbinsrv8@msn.com>
>Subject: RE: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease
>
>
>I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out
>some grease....>
>
>--Mark Navratil
Mark
I've had that problem since day one - that day being four years and 590
hours ago. However my situation may be a little different. On my first
flight, just seconds after liftoff, grease (at the time I thought it was
oil) began covering my windscreen. I made a quick trip around a shortened
pattern and landed it by looking out the side as the grease had obsured my
forward vision.
Found out that Hartzell had left out the ball in one of the grease fittings.
Got a new fitting and serviced the prop, but ever since then I get streaks
on the windscreen. I may have overserviced it. I skipped one service
interval and put less in now, and it seems to be getting better, but still
just a little grease after each flight. It's not enough to make me change
the seals.
Mike Robbins
RV-8 N88MJ
Paine Field, Washington
do not archiive
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com
Sherman,
Are you going to alternate the direction of the rivets? That seems like a
good method. In fact mine would look awful if I hadn't done that because I
didn't use any adhesive. That was a mistake. As it is, I have a slight "sine
wave" if you look closely at the rudder. It isn't that bad but it could be
better. If I hadn't alternated the rivets it would be curled about 4 inches!
I set the rivets with a squeezer as far as possible, then finished with the
gun -- a flush set against my back riveting plate. It seems to me like a
squeezer with dies ground to that angle would tend to bend the rivets.
Good luck,
Dan Hopper
RV-7A Flying since July '04 -- 145 wonderful hours
In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:59:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
lsbrv7a@yahoo.com writes:
--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and fill
the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets with a hand
squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on the list mentioned
he did his that way, and it worked well.)
"Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote: --> RV-List
message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
enlarged by the countersinking?
Do not archive
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage
Idaho Falls
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Grinding the dies to match the angle is a great idea. I'll do that.
Hopefully the elevators are a close match and the same dies can be used.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sherman Butler
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM
Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and
fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets
with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on
the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.)
"Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote: --> RV-List
message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
enlarged by the countersinking?
Do not archive
Sherman Butler
RV-7a Empennage
Idaho Falls
---------------------------------
Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker <retasker@optonline.net>
This method works great. I used my pneumatic squeezer and some rivet
sets I made myself that were ground to the correct angle.
However, make sure that you use a straight die to start the rivets,
otherwise the rivet may bend as noted in another post.
Basically, start all the rivets - squash them as far as you can without
the flat rivet set hitting the skins - and then finish them with the
angled rivet set.
Don't let the angled set rotate ;-) .
Dick Tasker
Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
>Grinding the dies to match the angle is a great idea. I'll do that.
>
>Hopefully the elevators are a close match and the same dies can be used.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sherman Butler
>Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
>
>My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and
>fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets
>with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on
>the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.)
>
>"Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote: --> RV-List
>message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
>
>
>Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
>
>I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
>(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
>enlarged by the countersinking?
>
>Do not archive
>
>
>Sherman Butler
>RV-7a Empennage
>Idaho Falls
>
>---------------------------------
>Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | ANR's and deafness |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" <davemader@bresnan.net>
My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and told
me that they "immediately" told
them they would not be allowed to use ANR headsets. Said that a study has been
done and ANR's have been
shown to cause irreversible hearing damage. I have not heard anything about this
at all.
He was concerned enough about it to tell me to stop using my Lightspeeds. I
find this hard to believe,
but he was adament. Anybody else hear anything?
Message 35
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|
| Subject: | jetblue aftermath |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" <davemader@bresnan.net>
not rv related, but pretty interesting
Amazing photographs here?Even more amazing is that the front
wheel strut assembly actually held up under such landing conditions.
Cheers!
File: ATT1466905.gif (201Kbytes)
File: ATT1466906.gif (535Kbytes)
File: ATT1466907.gif (554Kbytes)
File: ATT1466908.gif (500Kbytes)
File: ATT1466909.gif (185Kbytes)
File: ATT1466910.gif (332Kbytes)
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: ANR's and deafness |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" <dan@rvproject.com>
> Anybody else hear anything?
Wha?! Say again? I can't hear you...
;-)
do not archive
)_( Dan
RV-7 N714D
http://www.rvproject.com
Message 37
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|
| Subject: | Re: Spouse afraid to fly |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kysh <vans-dragon@lapdragon.org>
As Richard Scott was saying:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott <rscott@cascadeaccess.com>
>
> There used to be an RV around the area named "Divorce One" and I see a
> "Divorce Two" in the cards if he can't get his wife to change her views.
>
> Some of you guys must have had this problem--how did you deal with it?
You know, I think the owner of "Divorce One" had the right idea. :>
-Kysh
--
ST1300 - Areion - > 3k mi -- STOC #5943
CBR-F4 - Foxy - > 56k mi
~~ To fly is to truly live
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: ANR's and deafness |
--> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry <tedd@vansairforce.org>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" <davemader@bresnan.net>
>
> My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and
> told me that they "immediately" told them they would not be allowed to use
> ANR headsets.
Dave:
This information is over a decade out of date, so take that into consideration.
However, when the Canadian air force evaluated ANR headsets in the early 90s
they found that the systems available, which were designed for fixed-wing
aircraft, were not suitable for helicopter crews due to the very different
frequency distribution of helicopter noise. It's possible that the information
your son was given is valid for turbine-powered choppers but not for
piston-powered airplanes.
Tedd McHenry
Surrey, BC, Canada
Message 39
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| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" <ibspud@adelphia.net>
You might the RV-9 List archives also. This issue comes up from time to
time. The RV-9 wedge comes prepunched and countersinking will enlarge the
holes. I match drilled the wedge holes into a piece on 1/8" al strip that I
bought at Ace Hardware. I put clecos in about ever 10th or 12th hole to keep
it in place and the strip provided a hole for the countersink pilot. Flip
the wedge and do the other side then clamp the wedge, pull the clecos and
csk the remaining holes. On the other side of those holes you can csk by
hand. You will have the same problem on the main spar for the tank attach
screw nutplates but you can just use a short piece attached with clecos thru
the #40 nutplate attach holes and the strip will provide a pilot hole.
Albert Gardner
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 30%
Yuma, AZ
Message 40
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|
| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis <truflite@yahoo.com>
No way to get around enlarging the hole. Work slowly
and it should work out okay. As long as the skins sit
down well in the countersink, you are good to go.
Move on.
Dave
--- "Folbrecht, Paul"
<PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
> Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be
> running into.
>
> I'd like to hear from other builders who have done
> the rudder recently
> (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE
> holes significantly
> enlarged by the countersinking?
>
> Do not archive
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On
> Behalf Of Rob Prior (rv7)
> Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:06 AM
> To: rv-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge
> Countersinking
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)"
> <rv7@b4.ca>
>
> On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul"
> <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
> wrote:
> > I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up
> this far (and now I
> > don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss.
> I have been told
> > enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable
> here.
>
> Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave
> the other side
> square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to
> be a lot stronger.
> If
> you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and
> finding that the
> countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a
> knife-edge around the
> hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life.
>
> On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square
> heads on the
> underside.
>
> -Rob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> browse
> Subscriptions page,
> FAQ,
>
> Admin.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: ANR's and deafness |
--> RV-List message posted by: bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net (Bob Collins)
http://www.caohc.org/updatearticles/fall03.pdf
Good enough for me.
bob
St. Paul
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Dave Mader" <davemader@bresnan.net>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" <davemader@bresnan.net>
>
> My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and told
> me that they "immediately" told
> them they would not be allowed to use ANR headsets. Said that a study has been
> done and ANR's have been
> shown to cause irreversible hearing damage. I have not heard anything about
> this at all.
> He was concerned enough about it to tell me to stop using my Lightspeeds.
I
> find this hard to believe,
> but he was adament. Anybody else hear anything?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 42
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Blake <jblake43@bellsouth.net>
>
>> I have several items for trade or sale. I will be at Lakeland on Thursday or
Friday and will bring any of the items if you have interest. Please contact
me at jblake43@bellsouth.net or 954-658-3035. Jim Blake
>>
1- engine mount with gear legs for RV-6 , new. $500.00
1- Cato 68 x 73 prop with spinner, backplate and bolts , used, from
RV-6 150hp. $450.00
1- Stebra 68 x 72 prop with spinner, backplate and bolts, used, from
RV-6 150hp. $350.00
2- 4" prop spacers, spool type, for above props. $100.00 and $75.00
>
>
>
Message 43
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|
--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta <rveighta@earthlink.net>
I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket & tite seal.
That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume it should dry
before refueling the tank? How long to dry?
Walt Shipley
Message 44
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--> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley <rhdudley@att.net>
Walt,
I am including below what I wrote earlier (March 12) about this subject.
I filled my tanks as soon as I re-installed them on the wings.
Richard Dudley
===========================================================================
The Titeseal consistency does not seem to change markedly with time. I
don't believe that there is any sort of "cure". It is a viscous
"honey-like" consistency. When removing the plates after four years, the
gaskets easily separated from the tank and plate surfaces. I refilled
both tanks within an hour of re-mounting the inspection plates. I
checked the area of the seal as I filled the tanks and two days after
with no sign of leakage. After two days without leaks, I re mounted the
wing fairings.
I used new cork gaskets. The old gaskets that I removed were permeated
with the Titeseal. I believe that the gaskets serve a purpose to hold
the Titeseal, allow it to extrude around the screws and that the
saturated cork provides a seal conforming with the two mating surfaces
and is a mechanically strong barrier to leakage.
I, too, would recommend to new builders to paint the tanks separate from
the wings, or at least avoid painting the screws. That avoids the
anxiety of unscrewing painted screws. I was able to remove the tanks,
clean the Titeseal residue, conduct the SB on the pickup tube nut,
replace the inspection plate, replace the tank with all its screws in
about 3-4 hours per tank. A second pair of hands is helpful to navigate
the tank clear of the tubing and avoid scratching the wing.
Regards,
Richard Dudley
rveighta wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta <rveighta@earthlink.net>
>
>I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket & tite seal.
>That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume it should dry
>before refueling the tank? How long to dry?
>
>Walt Shipley
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 45
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--> RV-List message posted by: "SteinAir, Inc." <stein@steinair.com>
TiteSeal never really "dries" out in the technical sense...at least not like
proseal or silicone. That's it's beauty!
Cheers,
Stein.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
>[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rveighta
>Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:50 PM
>To: rv-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RV-List: Tite Seal
>
>
>--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta <rveighta@earthlink.net>
>
>I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket
>& tite seal.
>That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume
>it should dry
>before refueling the tank? How long to dry?
>
>Walt Shipley
>
>
Message 46
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Hi Paul
Just a thought, - are you using a 100 degree aviation countersink and
not 82 degree hardware store type??
George in Langley BC
Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
>Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
>match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
>
>Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there
>is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes
>some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably
>larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin
>dimples do fit perfectly.
>
>Thanks for the response.
>
>
>
>
>
Message 47
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" <jcimino@echoes.net>
It is with a great regret that I will putting my 2001 RV-8 up for sale. Pictures
can be seen at my website and you can e-mail me directly if you have any questions.
TTAF 200 hrs
TTSMO 300 hrs (Mattituck)
Engine IO-360 (180 HP) with fuel injection moved to face forward
Hartzell C/S Prop
Full Avionics
Garmin GNS-250XL
Garmin 327 Transponder
PS Stereo Intercom
VM 1000
EI Fuel Gauge
AI CD Player
This is one of the smoothest running RV's you will find and has won People's Choice
Awards at its two visits to the RV Forum along with Grand Champion and Best
Homebuilt at other Fly-Ins. Has the best of everything that was available in
2001.
I will be asking $110,000.
As I mentioned, please feel free to contact me off-list with questions. This is
a very sad day for me.
Thanks,
Jim
Jim Cimino
N7TL
RV-8 S/N 80039
150+ Hours
http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: Jim Carlton <jcarlton3@cox.net>
On Tuesday 21 March 2006 03:19 pm, Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler <lsbrv7a@yahoo.com>
>
> My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and
> fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets
> with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on
> the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.)
>
> "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com> wrote: --> RV-List
> message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul"
>
>
> Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into.
>
> I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently
> (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly
> enlarged by the countersinking?
>
I wish I had a picture of the wedge, but I chucked the microcage to the
drillpress, made a jig out of a couple of blocks of wood and fed the
predrilled wedge thru, keeping the work perpendicular to the bit. I didn't
notice much enlarging of the holes, but maybe I set the microstop too
shallow? Dunno, but I clecoed everything up and the dimpled skin set in fine.
I was so pleased with the fit I decided to try using epoxy instead of proseal
.
After mixing up a batch of West Systems with a slow hardener and making a
slurry with Cabosil to a thick consistency, I used a small brush and painted
it on to the skins at the trailing edge. I layed the skin onto the bench with
the wedge clecoed to the trailing edges and followed the steps spelled out in
the plans. Yes, I did this by myself where the directions call for an assist
to fold the skins over while you reach in to rivet the clips to the ribs or
stringers. I used a "sky hook" to hold the top skin overhead while I slowly
lowered it into place and proceeded with the blind rivets. Yep, it was a
handful, but kinda fun and I didn't get too much epoxy all over!
After I finished up the riveting, I clecoed the whole trailing edge, very
little oozed out needing cleanup, and weighted the rudder down to let it dry
overnight. Next morning it was rock solid, clecoes easily popped out and I
cleaned up the holes.
I back riveted the whole length against a length of 1 1/4 angle iron clamped
to the edge of the workbench. Except for my overzealous gun work, (really
dislike those little smilies!) in a spot or two, it came out really great. I
may spot fill the shop heads and lay a layer of glass over the edge and
really clean it up smooth. Anybody think I should worry about smoking rivets
working through?
Jim
Message 49
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| Subject: | Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
Certainly using the correct tools.
The job (c-sinking) is done now and turned out well. I now check each hole after
c-sinking; each rivet sits just a hair under flush.
Quit a bit early tonight after reading the "instructions" for mixing proseal.
Sounds like a blast.
do not archive
________________________________
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of G McNutt
Sent: Tue 3/21/2006 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking
--> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt <gmcnutt@shaw.ca>
Hi Paul
Just a thought, - are you using a 100 degree aviation countersink and
not 82 degree hardware store type??
George in Langley BC
Folbrecht, Paul wrote:
>--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
>
>Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was
>match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be.
>
>Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there
>is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes
>some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably
>larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin
>dimples do fit perfectly.
>
>Thanks for the response.
>
>
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