---------------------------------------------------------- RV-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/21/06: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:08 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Tom & Cathy Ervin) 2. 04:15 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (RGray67968@aol.com) 3. 04:45 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 4. 04:55 AM - Re: Tip tanks (Ralph E. Capen) 5. 04:58 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)) 6. 05:04 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Stephen J. Soule) 7. 05:04 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Alex Peterson) 8. 05:25 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Alex Peterson) 9. 05:42 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 10. 06:04 AM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Larry Bowen) 11. 06:20 AM - CS prop slinging grease (sturdy@att.net) 12. 07:00 AM - Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 13. 07:41 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Peter Mather) 14. 08:04 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 15. 08:28 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Gerry Filby) 16. 08:31 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 17. 08:43 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dan Checkoway) 18. 08:50 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 19. 08:56 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 20. 09:07 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Rob Prior (rv7)) 21. 09:15 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 22. 09:33 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Ron Lee) 23. 09:54 AM - Re: Nosewheel bearing question (Fiveonepw@aol.com) 24. 10:28 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 25. 10:37 AM - RV-4 Heat Retrofit (Paul Besing) 26. 10:40 AM - Third Annual RV FlyIn Cookout on Saturday, March 25th (Ken Harrill) 27. 11:37 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dwight Frye) 28. 11:58 AM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Sherman Butler) 29. 12:10 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 30. 12:10 PM - Re: CS prop slinging grease (Michael Robbins) 31. 12:12 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Hopperdhh@aol.com) 32. 12:19 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) 33. 01:02 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Richard Tasker) 34. 01:50 PM - ANR's and deafness (Dave Mader) 35. 01:50 PM - jetblue aftermath (Dave Mader) 36. 02:29 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (Dan Checkoway) 37. 02:48 PM - Re: Spouse afraid to fly (Kysh) 38. 03:08 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (Tedd McHenry) 39. 03:26 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Albert Gardner) 40. 03:28 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Dave Nellis) 41. 04:17 PM - Re: ANR's and deafness (bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net (Bob Collins)) 42. 04:40 PM - for sale (Jim Blake) 43. 04:55 PM - Tite Seal (rveighta) 44. 06:04 PM - Re: Tite Seal (Richard Dudley) 45. 06:13 PM - Re: Tite Seal (SteinAir, Inc.) 46. 06:41 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (G McNutt) 47. 06:42 PM - RV-8 For Sale (Jim Cimino) 48. 07:20 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Jim Carlton) 49. 07:26 PM - Re: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking (Folbrecht, Paul) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:08:40 AM PST US From: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Subject: Re: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: "Tom & Cathy Ervin" Mike, My Hartzel sat in a box for 3 years and works fine. No leaks or issues. Tom in Ohio (RV6-A...362CT) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark E Navratil" Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 10:11 PM Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil > > Guys, > > I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out > some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and > get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe > Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months > the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of > course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this > wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two > years before I first ran the engine... > > I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering, > has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away? > I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub > occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real > pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these > seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the > work done? > > Thanks, > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup > afterwards.... > > > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:15:42 AM PST US From: RGray67968@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued the slinging ceased for me. Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner real good and remove any grease that may be present before you replace the spinner. For the archives Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_ (http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/) Guys, I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two years before I first ran the engine... I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away? I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the work done? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup afterwards ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:45:52 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I first flew my -7A. At first I was going to put in roll pins like a Cessna 150, but decided on a different solution which has worked very well. I made a steel sleeve about 3/4 inch OD to put between the bearing spacers on the axle bolt inside of the wheel. Once this sleeve was fine tuned to the correct length, I could tighten the axle bolt to full torque without actually having the bearings support the bolt tension. To support the sleeve while taking the nose wheel on and off, I have a length of 3/8 inch rod that gets pushed through when installing the axle bolt. This rod is a little shorter than the distance between the forks. Dan Hopper RV-7A Flying 148 hours ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:55:20 AM PST US From: "Ralph E. Capen" Subject: Re: RV-List: Tip tanks --> RV-List message posted by: "Ralph E. Capen" I've done the plumbing - not flying yet. Johansen tanks purchased from Vans - plumbed in to the outboard bay of the main tank with a check valve. Zap me offline and I'll send some photos....I recently sent out the same photos to someone else..... Ralph -----Original Message----- >From: Trevor Mills >Sent: Mar 20, 2006 5:14 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Tip tanks > >--> RV-List message posted by: "Trevor Mills" > >I would like to know how anybody has plumbed tip tanks to the mains. Any photo's or even where and how would be a great help thanks. > >Trevor. 80605 > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:58:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease From: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" --> RV-List message posted by: "Stewart, Michael (ISS Atlanta)" Ditto for me. Mine looked like it was build-up from the grease fittings, which I replaced, before figuring out it was the hub bolts. Do not archive. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RGray67968@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:09 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued the slinging ceased for me. Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner real good and remove any grease that may be present before you replace the spinner. For the archives Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_ (http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/) Guys, I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two years before I first ran the engine... I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away? I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the work done? Thanks, --Mark Navratil Cedar Rapids, Iowa RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours....love the flying, hate the cleanup afterwards ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:20 AM PST US From: "Stephen J. Soule" Subject: RE: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" Dan, This sounds interesting. What did you use for the stock from which you made the sleeve? Steve Soule Vermont -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I first flew my -7A. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:20 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" Mark, good advice from Rick, I had the same experience. There was a pile of grease inside the spinner, presumably from outside the seal, but within the hub. This grease worked its way out of the prop during the first handful of hours, but then slowly crept out of the spinner. My prop did, however, need resealing around 500 hours/3 years. If you should need to reseal, there are two shops in this general area. One is Maxwell at Crystal airport in Minneapolis, and the other is Midwest Props in Kenosha, WI. Both of these shops will tell you that there are two problems with Hartzell factory props - one is that they use a non O-ring seal, some sort of non circular section seal. These shops will use O-rings instead, as did Hartzell in the past. The other problem is that the grease that is used by Hartzell is Aeroshell 6 for extremely cold operations, i.e., lower viscosity. They both recommend using the higher viscosity grease Aeroshell 5 after reseal. Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 729 hours Maple Grove, MN > --> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com > > > Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My > didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was > remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple > of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these > were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued > the slinging ceased for me. > > Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building > up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of > the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the > windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner > real good and remove any grease that may be present before > you replace the spinner. > > For the archives > > Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 > completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket > under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_ > (http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:25:50 AM PST US From: "Alex Peterson" Subject: RE: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > --> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil > > Guys (those of you with a nosedragger), > SNIP > Personally I think the whole design is a bit iffy from the > perspective that there's a very small margin between having > enough pressure to keep the spacers from turning without so > much pressure the that rotational friction on the > bearings/seals is excessive. It makes me wonder how many > people are flying around out there with the wheel pants on, > completely unaware that the spacers are spinning away while > the bearings are doing nothing. On the other hand, if the > rotational friction is excessive it > *may* have contributed to some of the bent nose gear > incidents that have occurred in recent years. It's pretty > scary watching the nosegear at high speed, even during a good > landing....the more rotational friction, the further the gear > is going to bend back/under when it first makes contact at > high speed. I think I'll disassemble the whole thing, check > the bearings for overheating, repack them, put screws in > through the fork/spacer assembly, and tighten it up until it > feels "about right". > > Any comments/experience from others with this assembly would > be appreciated. FWIW, I understand that the -6A's had a > different design (which some local RVators consider to be > superior to the current design...). > > Thanks, > > --Mark Navratil > Cedar Rapids, Iowa > RV-8A N2D flying 15.8 hours Mark, am I correct in understanding that on the newer (non 6A) nosewheel designs that the tapered roller bearings take the load from the axle bolt? If so, this is a terrible design. The 6A has a stout, hollow aluminum tube taking the load between the two larger hollow cylinders which directly touch the fork. This is as Dan has described that he did on his 7A. On my 6A, I could tighten the axle bolt until it breaks, and the wheel bearings will not be affected. Please tell me that the new design doesn't simply have the bolt mash the bearings with nothing in between, although I heard this also from a local builder. This simply isn't acceptable. Put a thrust tube in between, and use some shim stock to tweak it in. Van makes the best product available, but sometimes I feel they put more emphasis on hiring people with airplane building experience and not engineering. It is easy to imagine bad things happening when things in that assembly deflect under load... Alex Peterson RV6-A N66AP 729 hours Maple Grove, MN ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:32 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Steve, The spacer is made of mild steel rod. Aluminum would be OK, I think. Actually, I had help. The idea should be credited to a local craftsman named Carl McCain. He first used the idea on an RV-9A. From another post I see that the 6A used something similar, and that it is good engineering practice. Glad to see I wasn't flamed right away! Dan RV-7A N766DH In a message dated 3/21/2006 8:05:02 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, SSoule@pfclaw.com writes: --> RV-List message posted by: "Stephen J. Soule" Dan, This sounds interesting. What did you use for the stock from which you made the sleeve? Steve Soule Vermont -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Hopperdhh@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:44 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com I had this same problem (spacers turning by the torque of the seals) when I first flew my -7A. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:48 AM PST US From: Larry Bowen Subject: Re: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: Larry Bowen My H. prop was resealed under warrenty because the quad seal was twisted during original assembly at the factory -- which resulted in a leak at the root of the prop. I haven't heard of the o-ring and grease issues mentioned below....interesting. More here: http://bowenaero.com/mt3/archives/2005/06/prop_seal.html -- Larry Bowen Larry@BowenAero.com http://BowenAero.com Alex Peterson wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" > > Mark, good advice from Rick, I had the same experience. There was a pile of > grease inside the spinner, presumably from outside the seal, but within the > hub. This grease worked its way out of the prop during the first handful of > hours, but then slowly crept out of the spinner. My prop did, however, need > resealing around 500 hours/3 years. If you should need to reseal, there are > two shops in this general area. One is Maxwell at Crystal airport in > Minneapolis, and the other is Midwest Props in Kenosha, WI. Both of these > shops will tell you that there are two problems with Hartzell factory props > - one is that they use a non O-ring seal, some sort of non circular section > seal. These shops will use O-rings instead, as did Hartzell in the past. > The other problem is that the grease that is used by Hartzell is Aeroshell 6 > for extremely cold operations, i.e., lower viscosity. They both recommend > using the higher viscosity grease Aeroshell 5 after reseal. > > Alex Peterson > RV6-A N66AP 729 hours > Maple Grove, MN > > > > >>--> RV-List message posted by: RGray67968@aol.com >> >> >>Mark, I had this 'problem' as well with my Hartzell. My >>didn't have anything to do with 'shelf life'. All I did was >>remove the spinner and retorque all the hub bolts. A couple >>of the bolts had been removed to fit the spinner and these >>were the culprits in my case. Once the bolts were retorqued >>the slinging ceased for me. >> >>Also, I'll mention that (in my case) the grease was building >>up inside of the spinner before it worked it's way out of >>the prop root cutouts and was able to fly back to the >>windsreen......make sure you check the inside of your spinner >>real good and remove any grease that may be present before >>you replace the spinner. >> >>For the archives >> >>Rick Gray in Ohio at the Buffalo Farm - RV6 sold, RV8 >>completed, RV4 finished and painting, RV10 and F1 Rocket >>under construction _http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/_ >>(http://rv6rick.tripod.com/ohiovalleyrvators/) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:17 AM PST US From: sturdy@att.net Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: sturdy@att.net After the residual grease stopped slinging within the first few hours on my RV-8, CS Hartzell, I had about 140 hrs when it started slinging again. I took the spinner off and could see the grease trail coming from the parting surface on one side between two of the three bolts. I called Hartzell, told them when I started flying it (still under the one year warranty from first flight) and how many hours I had on it, and they paid for a reseal under warranty at Jordan Propellor. I watched when Jordan took it apart, you could definitely see where the white sealant between the parting surfaces was very thin at that area where the leak was. No problems since reseal with 950 hours. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying RV-3 Flying ----------------------------------------------------- Time: 09:16:44 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease From: Mark E Navratil --> RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil Guys, I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months the seals will dry out and need to be replaced because they'll leak. Of course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two years before I first ran the engine... I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away? I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the work done? Thanks, --Mark Navratil After the residual grease stopped slinging within the first few hours on my RV-8, CS Hartzell, I had about 140 hrs when it started slinging again. I took the spinner off and could see the grease trail coming from the parting surface on one side between two of the three bolts. I called Hartzell, told them when I started flying it (still under the one year warranty from first flight) and how many hours I had on it, and they paid for a reseal under warranty at Jordan Propellor. I watched whenJordan took it apart, you could definitely see where the white sealant between the parting surfaces was very thin at that area where the leak was. No problems since reseal with 950 hours. Stu McCurdy RV-8 Flying RV-3 Flying ----------------------------------------------------- Time: 09:16:44 PM PST US Subject: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease From: Mark E Navratil czechsix@juno.com -- RV-List message posted by: Mark E Navratil czechsix@juno.com Guys, I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out some grease....just enough to see a few fine streaks down the blade and get drops of grease on my windshield, cowl, and wings. I believe Hartzell says that if you let the prop sit in the box for over 18 months the seals will dry out and need to be replaced b ecause they'll leak. Of course when I ordered my prop I knew I'd be flying in a year so this wouldn't be a problem for me. Yeah right. It sat in the box for two years before I first ran the engine... I have a hard time believing I'm the only one like this so I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced this problem? If so, did it ever go away? I'm not concerned about it from a safety perspective--I can lube the hub occasionally and make sure it doesn't dry out in there--but it's a real pain to clean up especially in the canopy. If anybody's replaced these seals, can you remember how much it set you back and where you had the work done? Thanks, --Mark Navratil ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:05 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my last one (un-fluting), but here goes. Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became apparent after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is no way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge - if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting). The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly? Paul 9A QB #1176 HS, VS done ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:41:39 AM PST US From: "Peter Mather" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Paul It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge. Best regards Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600 > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my last > one (un-fluting), but here goes. > > > > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became apparent > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is no > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge - > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting). > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly? > > > > Paul > > 9A QB #1176 > > HS, VS done > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:04:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin dimples do fit perfectly. Thanks for the response. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" Paul It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge. Best regards Peter > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600 > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my last > one (un-fluting), but here goes. > > > > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became apparent > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is no > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge - > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting). > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly? > > > > Paul > > 9A QB #1176 > > HS, VS done > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: Gerry Filby --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby The wedge was pre-punched ? I'm assuming only the skins were pre punched and you match drilled into the wedge. I think what Paul is saying is that you need to re-position the wedge further AFT relative to the skins, that way you will be countersinking into the thicker section of the wedge. Which may necessitate you replacing the wedge. I had a a similar issue although perhaps not as pronounced. I bonded my trailing edges with T-88 epoxy which made them a lot stronger. Maybe post a picture ? g > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was > match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. > > Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there > is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes > some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably > larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin > dimples do fit perfectly. > > Thanks for the response. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" > > Paul > > It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the > rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin > edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it > is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't > matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously > important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do > use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set > properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge. > > Best regards > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600 > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > > > > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my > last > > one (un-fluting), but here goes. > > > > > > > > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became > apparent > > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is > no > > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been > > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge - > > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special > > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting). > > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly? > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > 9A QB #1176 > > > > HS, VS done > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:49 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Mark, Charlie, Alex & Dan- I've got the same problem as Mark on my -6A. Having to leave the nut on the axle bolt looser than spec just so the wheel turns has "worked" for almost 300 hours, but still makes me nervous- grateful for this discussion! When Mark sent the original post, I dragged out dwg. 62 from my preview plans and it shows the older style Cleveland wheel- there is a long aluminum "axle" (U-609) that is trapped between the fork halves and allows the bolt to be properly tightened, and thus no side-load on the bearings. My nosewheel sounds just like Mark's, with the separate spool on each side. Does anyone have the actual drawing (not preview) that shows the current (Matco) configuration and does it show a spacer between the two spools? The way Dan fixed it almost sounds like a no-brainer and would explain a lot, but I'm really wondering how many of us "sissies" are out there with a bogus nosewheel arrangement because the design was changed and the prints were either not updated or wrong? (spacer omitted?) By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire rotational resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did seem to help that problem considerably, though... Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:43:18 AM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was > match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. Was the AEX wedge drilled from the factory, or did you match drill it using the holes in the skin? If the wedge itself came drilled from the factory, then you're right...not much choice in the matter. If the wedge had no holes in it when you started, then it's possible you located it too far forward when you drilled it...which shifts the holes toward the thin end of the wedge...but it's NOT a huge deal. Take a look at the flap brace on the RV-7/8 and you'll see that it gets countersunk between the dimpled wing skin and the untouched flap hinge. Those c-sink'd holes end up huge. It's OK because that layer is sandwiched between other layers. Take a look at the left elevator rear spar, trim tab spar, etc. Same deal. Stuff gets c-sunk and enlarged, and it's OK because it's sandwiched between at least two other layers that don't have enlarged holes. I may be mistaken, but I believe Van's mentions this scenario in the construction manual. In any case, your rivet's manufactured & shop heads are both bearing against un-enlarged material. My 2 cents is, rivet that sucker and press on. If you have any doubts, call Van's Builder's Assistance (503-678-6545, no wonder how I can just spout that from *memory*!) and they'll probably tell you the same thing. At least that's my 2 cents...hope it puts you at ease. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:46 AM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Mark, The shimmy problem is usually due to too free of swivel of the castoring nose wheel. My gear leg had a problem that would lead to abnormal wear causing this joint to become loose. The collar at the top was not square to the bearing. I forget the exact arrangement right now, but I filed a long time getting it to meet over the whole area. Part of the bend of the gear leg actually went below the collar -- not a perfect situation! I have never had a shimmy problem when the castor nut was tightened to spec. High tire pressure would also aggravate shimmy. I run about 32 psi. This seems high but I have the 200 hp angle valve engine. Dan Hopper RV-7A Flying 149 hours In a message dated 3/21/2006 11:34:10 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, Fiveonepw@aol.com writes: =04????=1Bmip://02bb2b68/default.html ????=1Bmip://02bb2b68/default.html =20=0E=E4=84=80 =0FQ=C3=80=13=01=14=15=17?--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com Mark, Charlie, Alex & Dan- I've got the same problem as Mark on my -6A. Having to leave the nut on the axle bolt looser than spec just so the wheel turns has "worked" for almost 300 hours, but still makes me nervous- grateful for this discussion! When Mark sent the original post, I dragged out dwg. 62 from my preview plans and it shows the older style Cleveland wheel- there is a long aluminum "axle" (U-609) that is trapped between the fork halves and allows the bolt to be properly=20 tightened, and thus no side-load on the bearings. My nosewheel sounds just like Mark's, with the separate spool on each side. Does anyone have the actual drawing (not preview) that shows the current (Matco) configuration and does it show a spacer between the two spools? The way Dan fixed it almost sounds like a no-brainer and would explain a lot, but I'm really wondering how many of us "sissies" are out there with a bogus nosewheel arrangement because the design was changed and the prints were either not updated or wrong? (spacer omitted?) By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire rotational resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did seem to help that problem considerably, though... Mark Phillips ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:24 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Yes, the wedge was indeed pre-punched. I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gerry Filby Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:26 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Gerry Filby The wedge was pre-punched ? I'm assuming only the skins were pre punched and you match drilled into the wedge. I think what Paul is saying is that you need to re-position the wedge further AFT relative to the skins, that way you will be countersinking into the thicker section of the wedge. Which may necessitate you replacing the wedge. I had a a similar issue although perhaps not as pronounced. I bonded my trailing edges with T-88 epoxy which made them a lot stronger. Maybe post a picture ? g > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was > match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. > > Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there > is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes > some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably > larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin > dimples do fit perfectly. > > Thanks for the response. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Peter Mather > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:42 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Peter Mather" > > Paul > > It sounds like you may have the wedge slightly too far forward into the > rudder so that you have drilled very slightly too close to the thin > edge. I didn't see any significant enlargement when I did it although it > is very marginal. Given the double headed rivets it probably doesn't > matter if the hole is slightly enlarged although it is obviously > important that the dimples in both skins sit cleanly into the wedge. Do > use the tank sealant to glue the edge before rivetting and let it set > properly with every hole clecoed onto a straight edge. > > Best regards > > Peter > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > To: rv-list@matronics.com > > Subject: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > > Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2006 08:58:05 -0600 > > > > > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > > > > Well, I do hate to have to ask another question on the heels of my > last > > one (un-fluting), but here goes. > > > > > > > > Countersinking the rudder (9A) TE last night (R-916), it became > apparent > > after a couple holes that the holes are enlarged by the CS. There is > no > > way to CS to the correct depth without enlarging the holes. I've been > > trained that countersinking should *never* cause the hole to enlarge - > > if it does, the material is too thin - but this seems to be a special > > case (piece sandwiched between two skins for double-flush riveting). > > The instructions don't speak to the issue. Am I doing this correctly? > > > > > > > > Paul > > > > 9A QB #1176 > > > > HS, VS done > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- __g__ ========================================================== Gerry Filby gerf@gerf.com Tel: 415 203 9177 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:07:24 AM PST US From: "Rob Prior (rv7)" Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: > I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I > don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told > enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here. Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave the other side square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to be a lot stronger. If you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and finding that the countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a knife-edge around the hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life. On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square heads on the underside. -Rob ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:09 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Thanks, Dan. These were mostly my thoughts as well (both rivet heads are secure and the TE is just squeezed in) but I thought I should ask. (Having finally ruined my first part recently (and a skin at that), I think I may be "erring" hard on the side of caution lately.) This section of the instructions doesn't speak to this issue, and, I just reviewed section 5 as well, on countersinking, and didn't see it addressed there either. Perhaps it is in there somewhere. Or maybe this is something that's assumed to be obvious. :-} Paul -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dan Checkoway Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:41 AM Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was > match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. Was the AEX wedge drilled from the factory, or did you match drill it using the holes in the skin? If the wedge itself came drilled from the factory, then you're right...not much choice in the matter. If the wedge had no holes in it when you started, then it's possible you located it too far forward when you drilled it...which shifts the holes toward the thin end of the wedge...but it's NOT a huge deal. Take a look at the flap brace on the RV-7/8 and you'll see that it gets countersunk between the dimpled wing skin and the untouched flap hinge. Those c-sink'd holes end up huge. It's OK because that layer is sandwiched between other layers. Take a look at the left elevator rear spar, trim tab spar, etc. Same deal. Stuff gets c-sunk and enlarged, and it's OK because it's sandwiched between at least two other layers that don't have enlarged holes. I may be mistaken, but I believe Van's mentions this scenario in the construction manual. In any case, your rivet's manufactured & shop heads are both bearing against un-enlarged material. My 2 cents is, rivet that sucker and press on. If you have any doubts, call Van's Builder's Assistance (503-678-6545, no wonder how I can just spout that from *memory*!) and they'll probably tell you the same thing. At least that's my 2 cents...hope it puts you at ease. )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:17 AM PST US From: Ron Lee Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Ron Lee >By the way, I just had to replace my nose tire due to wear (300 hours- does >this sound a bit soon?), which obviously is accelerated by the tire >rotational >resistance. I've also been told I have occasional shimmy in my front gear >which is likely related as well. Carefully balancing the new wheel did >seem to >help that problem considerably, though... I thought I had a nose wheel shimmy problem and tried many things to fix it. It was not until I had someone videotape me taxiing that it led to the real problem being an unbalanced nosewheel/tire assembly. Ron Lee ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 09:54:07 AM PST US From: Fiveonepw@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Nosewheel bearing question --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com In a message dated 3/21/06 10:53:19 AM Central Standard Time, Hopperdhh@aol.com writes: > The shimmy problem is usually due to too free of swivel of the castoring > nose wheel. >>> After watching a guy in another -6A land at a gas stop a couple of years ago with his nosewheel slamming furiously from stop to stop (he didn't even realize it was happening!!) I'm pretty meticulous about the tension- it's been checked several times with the fish scale and by "feel" anytime the nose it up and has only been adjusted once since new. I WILL check squareness at top busing as you suggest, but balancing the new tire seems to have helped the most- also, I have no stiffeners on the leg, FWIW... Thanks, Dan- Mark ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:28:49 AM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly enlarged by the countersinking? Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Prior (rv7) Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:06 AM Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: > I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up this far (and now I > don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. I have been told > enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable here. Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave the other side square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to be a lot stronger. If you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and finding that the countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a knife-edge around the hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life. On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square heads on the underside. -Rob ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:04 AM PST US From: Paul Besing Subject: RV-List: RV-4 Heat Retrofit --> RV-List message posted by: Paul Besing My RV-4 doesn't have heat. I'd like to add heat to it, and was wondering which selector box from Van's works the best on a -4 for fitting, placement, etc. I'd also entertain putting a duct to the back seat, but understand it might be difficult on a completed airplane. Thanks in advance. Paul Besing ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:23 AM PST US Subject: RV-List: Third Annual RV FlyIn Cookout on Saturday, March 25th From: "Ken Harrill" --> RV-List message posted by: "Ken Harrill" The Palmetto Wing of Van's Air Force Invites any and all RV pilots/flyers/builders and EAA members To the Third Annual PALMETTO RV FLYIN COOKOUT Saturday, March 25 - 11:00 AM Rain date March 26 - 1:30 PM Columbia Downtown Owens Field Airport - Columbia, SC For details see: [url]http://www.eaa242.org/News/The%20Third%20Palmetto%20RVFlyIn-Cookout.mht Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=23189#23189 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:32 AM PST US From: Dwight Frye Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye Paul, Well ... I don't want to -swear- to it, but I do believe I had a bit of hole enlargement when I c'sunk mine. I just did it a few months ago, even though I'm close to finishing my fuselage, because I got my original small rudder replaced by Van's ... but at the time was busy with other things and just stuck it on the shelf until a good time to assemble it. That "good time" finally arrived back in November. :) At the time my thinking was (a) the holes are pre-punched so I can't make any adjustments there and (b) it is going to be tightly sandwiched between the two skins and (c) it'll be held firmly in place with proseal for added measure. Thus ... I didn't give it much thought. If in doubt, call Van's. (I need to give 'em a call on another issue myself sometime today or tomorrow.) -- Dwight do not archive On Tue Mar 21 13:24:39 2006, Folbrecht, Paul wrote : >Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. > >I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently >(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly >enlarged by the countersinking? ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:58:02 AM PST US From: Sherman Butler Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.) "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly enlarged by the countersinking? Do not archive Sherman Butler RV-7a Empennage Idaho Falls --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:07 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" It seems I probably worried about this a bit too much. (But, when you're new to metal working, and you read things like how failing to debur can cause stress cracks that can bring your airplane down hundreds of hours later, you want to make sure all the t's are crossed and so forth... :-}) Do not archive P.S. Yes I realize no single crack is going to cause a structural failure unless it goes unchecked for a very long time... -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dwight Frye Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:40 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Dwight Frye Paul, Well ... I don't want to -swear- to it, but I do believe I had a bit of hole enlargement when I c'sunk mine. I just did it a few months ago, even though I'm close to finishing my fuselage, because I got my original small rudder replaced by Van's ... but at the time was busy with other things and just stuck it on the shelf until a good time to assemble it. That "good time" finally arrived back in November. :) At the time my thinking was (a) the holes are pre-punched so I can't make any adjustments there and (b) it is going to be tightly sandwiched between the two skins and (c) it'll be held firmly in place with proseal for added measure. Thus ... I didn't give it much thought. If in doubt, call Van's. (I need to give 'em a call on another issue myself sometime today or tomorrow.) -- Dwight do not archive On Tue Mar 21 13:24:39 2006, Folbrecht, Paul wrote : >Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. > >I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently >(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly >enlarged by the countersinking? ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 12:10:07 PM PST US From: "Michael Robbins" Subject: RE: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease --> RV-List message posted by: "Michael Robbins" >Subject: RE: RV-List: CS prop slinging grease > > >I have 15.8 hours now on my RV and my new Hartzell is still slinging out >some grease....> > >--Mark Navratil Mark I've had that problem since day one - that day being four years and 590 hours ago. However my situation may be a little different. On my first flight, just seconds after liftoff, grease (at the time I thought it was oil) began covering my windscreen. I made a quick trip around a shortened pattern and landed it by looking out the side as the grease had obsured my forward vision. Found out that Hartzell had left out the ball in one of the grease fittings. Got a new fitting and serviced the prop, but ever since then I get streaks on the windscreen. I may have overserviced it. I skipped one service interval and put less in now, and it seems to be getting better, but still just a little grease after each flight. It's not enough to make me change the seals. Mike Robbins RV-8 N88MJ Paine Field, Washington do not archiive ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:10 PM PST US From: Hopperdhh@aol.com Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Hopperdhh@aol.com Sherman, Are you going to alternate the direction of the rivets? That seems like a good method. In fact mine would look awful if I hadn't done that because I didn't use any adhesive. That was a mistake. As it is, I have a slight "sine wave" if you look closely at the rudder. It isn't that bad but it could be better. If I hadn't alternated the rivets it would be curled about 4 inches! I set the rivets with a squeezer as far as possible, then finished with the gun -- a flush set against my back riveting plate. It seems to me like a squeezer with dies ground to that angle would tend to bend the rivets. Good luck, Dan Hopper RV-7A Flying since July '04 -- 145 wonderful hours In a message dated 3/21/2006 2:59:40 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lsbrv7a@yahoo.com writes: --> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.) "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly enlarged by the countersinking? Do not archive Sherman Butler RV-7a Empennage Idaho Falls ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 12:19:56 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Grinding the dies to match the angle is a great idea. I'll do that. Hopefully the elevators are a close match and the same dies can be used. -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sherman Butler Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.) "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly enlarged by the countersinking? Do not archive Sherman Butler RV-7a Empennage Idaho Falls --------------------------------- Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 01:02:40 PM PST US From: Richard Tasker Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Tasker This method works great. I used my pneumatic squeezer and some rivet sets I made myself that were ground to the correct angle. However, make sure that you use a straight die to start the rivets, otherwise the rivet may bend as noted in another post. Basically, start all the rivets - squash them as far as you can without the flat rivet set hitting the skins - and then finish them with the angled rivet set. Don't let the angled set rotate ;-) . Dick Tasker Folbrecht, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > >Grinding the dies to match the angle is a great idea. I'll do that. > >Hopefully the elevators are a close match and the same dies can be used. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Sherman Butler >Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:56 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking > >--> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler > >My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and >fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets >with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on >the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.) > >"Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: --> RV-List >message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > >Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. > >I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently >(or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly >enlarged by the countersinking? > >Do not archive > > >Sherman Butler >RV-7a Empennage >Idaho Falls > >--------------------------------- >Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:20 PM PST US From: "Dave Mader" Subject: RV-List: ANR's and deafness --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and told me that they "immediately" told them they would not be allowed to use ANR headsets. Said that a study has been done and ANR's have been shown to cause irreversible hearing damage. I have not heard anything about this at all. He was concerned enough about it to tell me to stop using my Lightspeeds. I find this hard to believe, but he was adament. Anybody else hear anything? ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 01:50:20 PM PST US From: "Dave Mader" Subject: RV-List: jetblue aftermath --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" not rv related, but pretty interesting Amazing photographs here?Even more amazing is that the front wheel strut assembly actually held up under such landing conditions. Cheers! File: ATT1466905.gif (201Kbytes) File: ATT1466906.gif (535Kbytes) File: ATT1466907.gif (554Kbytes) File: ATT1466908.gif (500Kbytes) File: ATT1466909.gif (185Kbytes) File: ATT1466910.gif (332Kbytes) ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 02:29:16 PM PST US From: "Dan Checkoway" Subject: Re: RV-List: ANR's and deafness --> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Checkoway" > Anybody else hear anything? Wha?! Say again? I can't hear you... ;-) do not archive )_( Dan RV-7 N714D http://www.rvproject.com ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 02:48:06 PM PST US From: Kysh Subject: Re: RV-List: Spouse afraid to fly --> RV-List message posted by: Kysh As Richard Scott was saying: > --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Scott > > There used to be an RV around the area named "Divorce One" and I see a > "Divorce Two" in the cards if he can't get his wife to change her views. > > Some of you guys must have had this problem--how did you deal with it? You know, I think the owner of "Divorce One" had the right idea. :> -Kysh -- ST1300 - Areion - > 3k mi -- STOC #5943 CBR-F4 - Foxy - > 56k mi ~~ To fly is to truly live ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 03:08:10 PM PST US From: Tedd McHenry Subject: Re: RV-List: ANR's and deafness --> RV-List message posted by: Tedd McHenry > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" > > My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and > told me that they "immediately" told them they would not be allowed to use > ANR headsets. Dave: This information is over a decade out of date, so take that into consideration. However, when the Canadian air force evaluated ANR headsets in the early 90s they found that the systems available, which were designed for fixed-wing aircraft, were not suitable for helicopter crews due to the very different frequency distribution of helicopter noise. It's possible that the information your son was given is valid for turbine-powered choppers but not for piston-powered airplanes. Tedd McHenry Surrey, BC, Canada ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 03:26:59 PM PST US From: "Albert Gardner" Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: "Albert Gardner" You might the RV-9 List archives also. This issue comes up from time to time. The RV-9 wedge comes prepunched and countersinking will enlarge the holes. I match drilled the wedge holes into a piece on 1/8" al strip that I bought at Ace Hardware. I put clecos in about ever 10th or 12th hole to keep it in place and the strip provided a hole for the countersink pilot. Flip the wedge and do the other side then clamp the wedge, pull the clecos and csk the remaining holes. On the other side of those holes you can csk by hand. You will have the same problem on the main spar for the tank attach screw nutplates but you can just use a short piece attached with clecos thru the #40 nutplate attach holes and the strip will provide a pilot hole. Albert Gardner RV-9A N872RV RV-10 30% Yuma, AZ ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 03:28:16 PM PST US From: Dave Nellis Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Dave Nellis No way to get around enlarging the hole. Work slowly and it should work out okay. As long as the skins sit down well in the countersink, you are good to go. Move on. Dave --- "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: > --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be > running into. > > I'd like to hear from other builders who have done > the rudder recently > (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE > holes significantly > enlarged by the countersinking? > > Do not archive > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On > Behalf Of Rob Prior (rv7) > Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:06 AM > To: rv-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge > Countersinking > > --> RV-List message posted by: "Rob Prior (rv7)" > > > On 8:55:33 2006-03-21 "Folbrecht, Paul" > > wrote: > > I've only done 3 holes so, even if I've screwed-up > this far (and now I > > don't think that I have), it's not likely a loss. > I have been told > > enlargement of the holes is indeed inevitable > here. > > Another option is to flush rivet one side and leave > the other side > square-headed. It's less pretty, but it's going to > be a lot stronger. > If > you're countersinking both sides of that wedge and > finding that the > countersinks are meeting each other, you'll have a > knife-edge around the > hole, which isn't condusive to long rivet life. > > On the Elevator, at least, you could put the square > heads on the > underside. > > -Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:14 PM PST US From: bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net (Bob Collins) Subject: Re: RV-List: ANR's and deafness --> RV-List message posted by: bcollinsrv7a@comcast.net (Bob Collins) http://www.caohc.org/updatearticles/fall03.pdf Good enough for me. bob St. Paul -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Dave Mader" > --> RV-List message posted by: "Dave Mader" > > My son, who flies helicopters for the Coast Guard, called me last night and told > me that they "immediately" told > them they would not be allowed to use ANR headsets. Said that a study has been > done and ANR's have been > shown to cause irreversible hearing damage. I have not heard anything about > this at all. > He was concerned enough about it to tell me to stop using my Lightspeeds. I > find this hard to believe, > but he was adament. Anybody else hear anything? > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 04:40:20 PM PST US From: Jim Blake Subject: RV-List: for sale --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Blake > >> I have several items for trade or sale. I will be at Lakeland on Thursday or Friday and will bring any of the items if you have interest. Please contact me at jblake43@bellsouth.net or 954-658-3035. Jim Blake >> 1- engine mount with gear legs for RV-6 , new. $500.00 1- Cato 68 x 73 prop with spinner, backplate and bolts , used, from RV-6 150hp. $450.00 1- Stebra 68 x 72 prop with spinner, backplate and bolts, used, from RV-6 150hp. $350.00 2- 4" prop spacers, spool type, for above props. $100.00 and $75.00 > > > ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 04:55:03 PM PST US From: rveighta Subject: RV-List: Tite Seal --> RV-List message posted by: rveighta I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket & tite seal. That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume it should dry before refueling the tank? How long to dry? Walt Shipley ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:51 PM PST US From: Richard Dudley Subject: Re: RV-List: Tite Seal --> RV-List message posted by: Richard Dudley Walt, I am including below what I wrote earlier (March 12) about this subject. I filled my tanks as soon as I re-installed them on the wings. Richard Dudley =========================================================================== The Titeseal consistency does not seem to change markedly with time. I don't believe that there is any sort of "cure". It is a viscous "honey-like" consistency. When removing the plates after four years, the gaskets easily separated from the tank and plate surfaces. I refilled both tanks within an hour of re-mounting the inspection plates. I checked the area of the seal as I filled the tanks and two days after with no sign of leakage. After two days without leaks, I re mounted the wing fairings. I used new cork gaskets. The old gaskets that I removed were permeated with the Titeseal. I believe that the gaskets serve a purpose to hold the Titeseal, allow it to extrude around the screws and that the saturated cork provides a seal conforming with the two mating surfaces and is a mechanically strong barrier to leakage. I, too, would recommend to new builders to paint the tanks separate from the wings, or at least avoid painting the screws. That avoids the anxiety of unscrewing painted screws. I was able to remove the tanks, clean the Titeseal residue, conduct the SB on the pickup tube nut, replace the inspection plate, replace the tank with all its screws in about 3-4 hours per tank. A second pair of hands is helpful to navigate the tank clear of the tubing and avoid scratching the wing. Regards, Richard Dudley rveighta wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > >I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket & tite seal. >That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume it should dry >before refueling the tank? How long to dry? > >Walt Shipley > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 06:13:38 PM PST US From: "SteinAir, Inc." Subject: RE: RV-List: Tite Seal --> RV-List message posted by: "SteinAir, Inc." TiteSeal never really "dries" out in the technical sense...at least not like proseal or silicone. That's it's beauty! Cheers, Stein. >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of rveighta >Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:50 PM >To: rv-list@matronics.com >Subject: RV-List: Tite Seal > > >--> RV-List message posted by: rveighta > >I just completed the fuel tank SB on my left tank, using a gasket >& tite seal. >That was a day and half ago and the stuff is still wet. I assume >it should dry >before refueling the tank? How long to dry? > >Walt Shipley > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 06:41:44 PM PST US From: G McNutt Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Hi Paul Just a thought, - are you using a 100 degree aviation countersink and not 82 degree hardware store type?? George in Langley BC Folbrecht, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > >Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was >match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. > >Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there >is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes >some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably >larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin >dimples do fit perfectly. > >Thanks for the response. > > > > > ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 06:42:28 PM PST US From: "Jim Cimino" Subject: RV-List: RV-8 For Sale --> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Cimino" It is with a great regret that I will putting my 2001 RV-8 up for sale. Pictures can be seen at my website and you can e-mail me directly if you have any questions. TTAF 200 hrs TTSMO 300 hrs (Mattituck) Engine IO-360 (180 HP) with fuel injection moved to face forward Hartzell C/S Prop Full Avionics Garmin GNS-250XL Garmin 327 Transponder PS Stereo Intercom VM 1000 EI Fuel Gauge AI CD Player This is one of the smoothest running RV's you will find and has won People's Choice Awards at its two visits to the RV Forum along with Grand Champion and Best Homebuilt at other Fly-Ins. Has the best of everything that was available in 2001. I will be asking $110,000. As I mentioned, please feel free to contact me off-list with questions. This is a very sad day for me. Thanks, Jim Jim Cimino N7TL RV-8 S/N 80039 150+ Hours http://www.geocities.com/jcimino.geo/ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:57 PM PST US From: Jim Carlton Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: Jim Carlton On Tuesday 21 March 2006 03:19 pm, Folbrecht, Paul wrote: > > --> RV-List message posted by: Sherman Butler > > My holes were enlarged, but it looked like the skins nearly meet and > fill the void. I glued mine Saturday and plan on squeezing the rivets > with a hand squeezer with a set ground to a matching angle. (Someone on > the list mentioned he did his that way, and it worked well.) > > "Folbrecht, Paul" wrote: --> RV-List > message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > > > Well, what I'm running into, everybody should be running into. > > I'd like to hear from other builders who have done the rudder recently > (or just remember it well). Did you notice the TE holes significantly > enlarged by the countersinking? > I wish I had a picture of the wedge, but I chucked the microcage to the drillpress, made a jig out of a couple of blocks of wood and fed the predrilled wedge thru, keeping the work perpendicular to the bit. I didn't notice much enlarging of the holes, but maybe I set the microstop too shallow? Dunno, but I clecoed everything up and the dimpled skin set in fine. I was so pleased with the fit I decided to try using epoxy instead of proseal . After mixing up a batch of West Systems with a slow hardener and making a slurry with Cabosil to a thick consistency, I used a small brush and painted it on to the skins at the trailing edge. I layed the skin onto the bench with the wedge clecoed to the trailing edges and followed the steps spelled out in the plans. Yes, I did this by myself where the directions call for an assist to fold the skins over while you reach in to rivet the clips to the ribs or stringers. I used a "sky hook" to hold the top skin overhead while I slowly lowered it into place and proceeded with the blind rivets. Yep, it was a handful, but kinda fun and I didn't get too much epoxy all over! After I finished up the riveting, I clecoed the whole trailing edge, very little oozed out needing cleanup, and weighted the rudder down to let it dry overnight. Next morning it was rock solid, clecoes easily popped out and I cleaned up the holes. I back riveted the whole length against a length of 1 1/4 angle iron clamped to the edge of the workbench. Except for my overzealous gun work, (really dislike those little smilies!) in a spot or two, it came out really great. I may spot fill the shop heads and lay a layer of glass over the edge and really clean it up smooth. Anybody think I should worry about smoking rivets working through? Jim ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:26:37 PM PST US Subject: RE: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking From: "Folbrecht, Paul" --> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" Certainly using the correct tools. The job (c-sinking) is done now and turned out well. I now check each hole after c-sinking; each rivet sits just a hair under flush. Quit a bit early tonight after reading the "instructions" for mixing proseal. Sounds like a blast. do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of G McNutt Sent: Tue 3/21/2006 8:44 PM Subject: Re: RV-List: Rudder Trailing Edge Countersinking --> RV-List message posted by: G McNutt Hi Paul Just a thought, - are you using a 100 degree aviation countersink and not 82 degree hardware store type?? George in Langley BC Folbrecht, Paul wrote: >--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" > >Too far forward? No, the edge was prepunched #40 and then was >match-drilled. The holes are just where they're supposed to be. > >Well, then, I'm entirely confused about this because, as I said, there >is NO WAY to countersink to the proper depth without enlarging the holes >some - and it's not a trivial amount, either. They are quite noticeably >larger - although the countersinks are done just right - the skin >dimples do fit perfectly. > >Thanks for the response. > >