Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:07 AM - Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Steve Glasgow)
2. 04:55 AM - Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) ()
3. 05:52 AM - Mysterious Oil Leak (DAVID REEL)
4. 06:05 AM - Re: Mysterious Oil Leak (Belue, Kevin)
5. 06:06 AM - Re: Mysterious Oil Leak (James Clark)
6. 06:44 AM - Re: Mysterious Oil Leak (sportav8r@aol.com)
7. 07:19 AM - Rudder TE Gap (Folbrecht, Paul)
8. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Tim Bryan)
9. 08:55 AM - Re: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Vanremog@aol.com)
10. 09:43 AM - Re: Re: Interpreting Aileron Position (Kevin Horton)
11. 09:52 AM - Re: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Dan Morrow)
12. 09:55 AM - Re: Mysterious Oil Leak (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
13. 11:41 AM - Re: New fuel valve handle (Jim Anglin)
14. 11:42 AM - Re: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Jim Pleasants)
15. 01:30 PM - Re: New fuel valve handle (William Gill)
16. 01:30 PM - Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. (John Helms)
17. 01:45 PM - Re: RV10-List: New fuel valve handle (John Jessen)
18. 02:22 PM - Re: MT Props delay (N395V)
19. 02:26 PM - Platenut Life (MLWynn@aol.com)
20. 03:08 PM - Spelling lesson, entertainment only (Alex Peterson)
21. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) (Bruce Gray)
22. 07:18 PM - Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
23. 07:18 PM - Re: Platenut Life (Fiveonepw@aol.com)
24. 08:56 PM - Re: Platenut Life (Mannan J. Thomason)
25. 09:12 PM - Re: Experimental Bill of Sale/Waiver (Vanremog@aol.com)
26. 09:40 PM - Re: Platenut Life (MLWynn@aol.com)
27. 09:41 PM - Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only (David Maib)
28. 11:01 PM - Re: Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. (Chris W)
29. 11:32 PM - Re: Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. (John Helms (MO))
30. 11:46 PM - Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only (Chris W)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Steve Glasgow" <willfly@carolina.rr.com>
Don't you dare shame me.
The idea of this forum is to make helpful suggestions about various =
topics, not to shame people because they post a message you personally =
do not agree with. =20
Steve Glasgow
Message 2
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| Subject: | RE: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: <gmcjetpilot@yahoo.com>
Conspiracy theorist unite. Could be?
ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS, when the Lawsuits start, Van will start charging
$45,000 for a kit, thanks to the idiots that are suing.
If some Lawyer thinks Van's aircraft is a wealthy company, and see all these
$100,000 planes flying and think BINGO!
I can tell you that there profit margin in their kits are small. It is amazing
if
you look at the quality and price of today's kits and the price/quality of kits
of 18 years ago that cost may be $8,000, I am amazed Van can keep the
price so low. Van used to raise the price a few hundred when aluminum
prices went up. That is because they don't have huge padding in the price.
I doubt Van has the deep pockets.
So if Van is trying to cover his A, I suggest we all learn. People just don't
take personal responsibility and want to sue when STUFF happens. That
that is life. If you don't want any chance of being killed in a plane than don't
fly.
George
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Marty" <martorious@earthlink.net>
--> RV-List message posted by: "Marty" <martorious@earthlink.net>
Isn't this about the same time frame as the fuel tank SB was issued?
Inquiring minds...
Marty
Do Not Archive
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Mysterious Oil Leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
Whenever I remove the nosewheel fairing cap to check the security of my =
RV8A nose gear leg fairing, I notice a ring of oil collected atop the =
nosewheel rotation limit stop. I can't think of any possible source for =
oil down here. Grease yes, but not oil. Has anyone observed a similar =
mystery? Has anyone got a clue?
Dave Reel - RV8A 10 hrs
Message 4
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| Subject: | Mysterious Oil Leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Belue, Kevin" <KBelue@DRS-TEM.com>
I've noticed when I change oil, if I get any oil in the nose gear mount (the
boxed section where the nose gear goes into the engine mount) oil will
appear at the bottom of the gear leg for a long time. I spray engine cleaner
in this boxed area and spray it with a high pressure hose to clean it out.
Kevin D. Belue
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DAVID REEL [mailto:dreel@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:47 AM
> To: rvlist
> Subject: RV-List: Mysterious Oil Leak
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> Whenever I remove the nosewheel fairing cap to check the
> security of my =
> RV8A nose gear leg fairing, I notice a ring of oil collected
> atop the =
> nosewheel rotation limit stop. I can't think of any possible
> source for =
> oil down here. Grease yes, but not oil. Has anyone observed
> a similar =
> mystery? Has anyone got a clue?
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A 10 hrs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Mysterious Oil Leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: "James Clark" <jclarkmail@gmail.com>
I have seen something similar on a friends RV9A.
I suspect there is some low pressure/suction in the area that is pulling a
drop or two from the engine compartment down the faring. Have not
investigated further.
James
On 4/27/06, DAVID REEL <dreel@cox.net> wrote:
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> Whenever I remove the nosewheel fairing cap to check the security of my =
=3D
> RV8A nose gear leg fairing, I notice a ring of oil collected atop the =3D
> nosewheel rotation limit stop. I can't think of any possible source for =
=3D
> oil down here. Grease yes, but not oil. Has anyone observed a similar =
=3D
> mystery? Has anyone got a clue?
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A 10 hrs
>
>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
--
This is an alternate email. Please continue to email me at
james@nextupventures.com .
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mysterious Oil Leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: sportav8r@aol.com
Ditto. The spilled engine oil weeps out of the rivet holes all along the fairing
as well as out the bottom, onto the pant. Disgusting looking, but really cool
how it shows the air streamlines ;-)
I try to avoid spilling any oil into the gear/engine mount for this reason, but
when cleaning the high pressure screen, it's hard not to drop some down there.
-Stormy
-----Original Message-----
From: Belue, Kevin <KBelue@drs-tem.com>
Sent: Thu, 27 Apr 2006 08:02:29 -0500
Subject: RE: RV-List: Mysterious Oil Leak
--> RV-List message posted by: "Belue, Kevin" <KBelue@DRS-TEM.com>
I've noticed when I change oil, if I get any oil in the nose gear mount (the
boxed section where the nose gear goes into the engine mount) oil will
appear at the bottom of the gear leg for a long time. I spray engine cleaner
in this boxed area and spray it with a high pressure hose to clean it out.
Kevin D. Belue
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DAVID REEL [mailto:dreel@cox.net]
> Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 7:47 AM
> To: rvlist
> Subject: RV-List: Mysterious Oil Leak
>
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> Whenever I remove the nosewheel fairing cap to check the
> security of my =
> RV8A nose gear leg fairing, I notice a ring of oil collected
> atop the =
> nosewheel rotation limit stop. I can't think of any possible
> source for =
> oil down here. Grease yes, but not oil. Has anyone observed
> a similar =
> mystery? Has anyone got a clue?
>
> Dave Reel - RV8A 10 hrs
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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--> RV-List message posted by: "Folbrecht, Paul" <PFolbrecht@starkinvestments.com>
After riveting, one of the skins is not flush against the wedge. The
rivets are, but not the edge. Riveting curled it up a bit, it seems,
just on that side. Would using a hand seamer here to get these surfaces
flush be an Ok idea? Perhaps I should have pre-curled the edge, though
I don't think that would have helped. (Turns out I used a bit too much
'hit' when back-riveting, and have some minor indentations as well.
Wish I could do it over.)
=20
Do not archive =20
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Tim Bryan" <flyrv6@bryantechnology.com>
=0D
=0D
>>In a message dated 4/26/2006 4:50:21 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,=0D
>>flyrv6@bryantechnology.com writes:=0D
=0D
>>Why don't we all pitch in a dollar and get a good waiver written that =
we=0D
>>could all use. Why should we each spend the money to have these thin=
gs=0D
>>drawn up.=0D
=0D
=0D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D
=0D
>>They're readily available. Would you like one?=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
>>GV (RV-6A N1GV O-360-A1A, C/S, Flying 780hrs, Silicon Valley, CA)=0D
=0D
Two earlier posts suggested NOT to use boiler plate and to hire an atorne=
y.=20
I was commenting on this, and suggesting we only hire one for all of us t=
o
have some *specialty boiler plate* ones. Do you think the standard boile=
r
plate is sufficient?=0D
Thanks for your comments=0D
Tim=0D
Do Not Archive=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=20
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
Here is the text of the one I have used. Now let's all parse the language=20
and argue about how to make it better and impenetrable by clever lawyers. =20=
As=20
Former President Clinton said, define "is". ;o)
=20
=20
EXPERIMENTAL-AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT SALES AGREEMENT=20
THIS FORM SUPPLEMENTS, BUT DOES NOT REPLACE, FAA AC FORM 8050-2. THE FAA=20
REGISTRATION-NUMBER OF THIS AIRCRAFT IS NXXXX. THIS AIRCRAFT WAS CONSTRUCTE=
D IN=20
ACCORDANCE WITH PLANS SERIAL NUMBER XXXXX, AND IS A FACSIMILE OF AN AIRCRAF=
T=20
KNOWN AS AN XX-XX. THE AIRCRAFT IS DESCRIBED IN GREATER DETAIL ON SHEET 2=
=20
OF THIS AGREEMENT.=20
The experimental-amateur built aircraft being sold is not designed and/or=20
built to meet any defined standards of airworthiness as are =E2=80=9CStanda=
rd Aircraft=E2=80=9D
. This aircraft does not have an FAA Form 317 Statement of Conformity on=20
file, as there are no FAA approved data with which to conform. In the case=
of =20
experimental-amateur built aircraft, the registered owner(s) is/are the =20
experimenter(s). Most parts of this aircraft were not built in permanent j=
igs=20
and, as such, may not be directly interchangeable with like parts on other=20
aircraft of the same facsimile. The original builder of this experimental=20
aircraft may possess a repairman=E2=80=99s certificate for purposes of main=
taining and=20
performing condition inspections on this aircraft only, although he/she may=
not=20
be a professional mechanic nor possess an FAA A&P license. FAA records lis=
t=20
the registered owner(s) as the manufacturer of an experimental-amateur buil=
t =20
aircraft as the manufacturer and, as manufacturer, the registered owner(s) =20
is/are free to make any modifications or changes to the design as they see f=
it, =20
although notification of major alterations have and must be made to the FAA=
.=20
This aircraft is an example of the builder/owner=E2=80=99s creative abilit=
y and was=20
built for their education and recreation. Upon sale, the newly registered=
=20
owner of this experimental-amateur built aircraft in fact will be considere=
d=20
its new manufacturer. As of the date of sale, the new owner becomes=20
responsible for its aerodynamic and structural function and/or concept. Th=
e new=20
owner is responsible for the performance, fit and/or purpose of every part/=
piece=20
on the aircraft.=20
No warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, is made to the=20
Purchaser or anyone else as to the merchantability or airworthiness of NXXX=
X. This =20
experimental-amateur built aircraft is sold on an =E2=80=9CAS IS, WHERE-IS a=
nd WITH=20
ALL FAULTS PRESENTLY INCORPORATED=E2=80=9D basis.=20
Flying poses certain inherent risks that can result in serious injury or=20
death. Any person who pilots or acts as passenger in this experimental air=
craft=20
does so at his/her own risk. Because of the sale hereof and in receipt of=
=20
other good and valuable consideration, the Purchaser/new Owner hereby Waive=
s=20
and Releases the seller(s) from any and all Demands, Claims of every kind,=20
including but not limited to, Liability, Breach of Warranty or Negligence,=20
which the Purchaser, owner , pilot, and/or passenger in this experimental=20
aircraft may have. This Release and Waiver is binding on all Heirs, Persona=
l=20
Representatives and Assigns of the Purchaser, Subsequent Owners, Pilots and=
/or =20
Passengers.=20
As Purchaser/new Owner, I accept the terms of this Sales Agreement for the=20
experimental-amateur built aircraft identified above and agree to be bound=20=
by=20
the above stipulations. I agree that any subsequent sale of this aircraft=20
will be made with the same disclosures, agreements and assurances listed ab=
ove=20
as a minimum.=20
Name of Purchaser/new Owner: =20=
=20
Name of Purchaser/new Co-Owner: =20=
=20
=20
Purchaser=E2=80=99s Address: =20=
=20
Co-Owner=E2=80=99s Address: =20=
=20
=20
Signature of Purchaser: =20=
=20
Signature of Co-Owner: =20=
=20
=20
As Seller(s), on this XXth day of Month, XXXX in the County of XXXX, State=20
of XX, I/We do hereby sell, grant, transfer, release and deliver all rights=
,=20
title, interest, possession and responsibility for/to such experimental=20
aircraft to the above Purchaser and acknowledge the receipt of a Cashier=
=E2=80=99s Check in=20
the amount of $XXXX.00, payable to the Seller. No sales tax was collected=20=
=20
pursuant to State Law and this becomes the responsibility of the Purchaser.=
=20
Total Hours Engine and Airframe at time of sale XXX.X=20
Name of Seller/Owner: =20=
=20
Name of Seller/Co-Owner: =20=
=20
=20
Seller/Owner=E2=80=99s Address: =20=
=20
Seller/Co-Owner=E2=80=99s Address: =20=
=20
=20
Signature of Seller/Owner: =20=
=20
Signature of Co-Owner: =20=
=20
=20
Witness: =20=
=20
Signature of Witness: =20=
=20
=20
This Bill of Sale is to be signed by all parties. The FAA dropped the=20
requirement for notarizing in 1972. Seller retains the original and a cop=
y is=20
given to the Purchaser/new Owner. Seller sends a copy of the original docu=
ment=20
to the FAA along with Cancellation of Registration FAA AC FORM 8050-73.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Interpreting Aileron Position |
--> RV-List message posted by: Kevin Horton <khorton01@rogers.com>
On 26 Apr 2006, at 18:33, DAVID REEL wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: "DAVID REEL" <dreel@cox.net>
>
> After digesting all the replies, for which I thank you all, I got
> this =
> idea from Phil Birkelbachs. I have adjusted the ailerons so that
> they =
> are both at the same angle of attack on the assumption that they
> would =
> be equally balanced in flight. Right now, when one is lined up with =
> it's flap, the other lines up with the other flap. Seeing that
> they are =
> indicating a roll to the left by their in-flight position even
> though =
> I'm applying considerable roll right stick input to stay level
> tells me =
> they're not balanced in this position. What I should be doing is =
> decreasing the angle of attack on the powerful aileron, the left
> one, =
> and increasing the angle of attack of the right one to get an in-
> flight =
> balance position with the ailerons closer to the known neutral in-
> trail =
> position. This will look funny on the ground because they won't
> line up =
> with the flaps but something I can't see or measure is changing the =
> airflow each sees & I should adjust to that.
>
> Is this reasonable? I think I'll just adjust one aileron or the
> other a =
> little 'out of line' to see how this works.
If you are talking about adjusting the length of the various aileron
pushrods, as a way to fix your roll trim problem, I believe you are
wasting your time. If you have the aileron trim in neutral, and you
let go of the stick, the ailerons will move to the position that
balances the forces on the left and right ailerons. If you screw
around with the pushrods, you might move both ailerons up a bit, or
down a bit, but I don't believe you will make any significant
difference the relative positions between the two ailerona.
Go ahead, try it if you want. But don't be surprised if it doesn't
fix your problem.
The aileron positions are a symptom of the real problem. They are
not the problem. You need to find the underlying problem, rather
than trying to treat the symptoms.
Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit)
Ottawa, Canada
http://www.kilohotel.com/rv8
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Dan Morrow" <DanFM01@butter.toast.net>
In my earlier e-mail on this topic I stated that I had read that the builder
was named as a defendant in the John Denver case. Mr. gmcjetpilot expressed
doubt and asked for references. After searching around I found one on the
EAA website. The following two paragraphs are copied from the website.
"In today's litigious society, there is, perhaps, some justification for the
anxiety homebuilders express about theoretical financial loss arising out of
their efforts. Experience, to date, does not support these fears. I checked
carefully with other aviation attorneys and insurers, and the number of
lawsuits that have actually been litigated against homebuilders is
minuscule.
"Moreover, at the time of this writing there doesn't appear to be any
instance in which an actual case was filed, tried, reduced to judgment, and
collected against a homebuilder. There is one pending arising out of the
John Denver crash, but that case is focused against the fuel valve
manufacturer and its retailer, who appears to have coverage, although the
builder is also being sued."
The lawsuit was later settled out of court. News reports I have read don't
give a complete list of the parties to the settlement, so I cann't say how
the builder, Adrian Davis, fared. Details of the settlement were
apparently not released, as is common in such cases.
You can reach the source for the above quotation as follows:
Navigate to members.eaa.org. Login--you must be an EAA member to do this.
Follow the following links: building,homebuiders
HQ->Selling/Buying,Articles->Part 5.
Or for a short cut navigate to members.eaa.org. Login and enter "john
denver" in the search box with the quotes. Click on the link to Part 5
Liability etc. Scroll down near the bottom to find the quoted text.
The EAA web site has some extensive articles on legal issues for
homebuilders. In particular if you follow the first method of navigation
above, you get to page with links to 8 or 9 legal topics related to the
homebuilder. One of them, Part 3, discusses waivers and releases. The
author is sceptical of their value.
The long and short of all this seems to me to be like this:
1. There is no legal impediment to prevent lawsuits against a homebuilder
before or after he sells the aircraft.
2. Lawsuits after the sale are rare. The lawyers don't have a way of
counting the number of lawsuits, however, so it's impossible to quantify
the risk.
3. If you are Daddy Warbucks with lots of dough and own a homebuilt, you
might consult a lawyer.
4. For the rest of us the risks are low compared with the ordinary risks of
aviation.
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mysterious Oil Leak |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 4/27/06 7:53:43 AM Central Daylight Time, dreel@cox.net
writes:
> . I can't think of any possible source for =
> oil down here.
>>>>
I'll hazard a SWAG assuming the 8-A is similar to my 6-A: air at top of leg
fairing is higher pressure (open to lower cowl near outlet) than at bottom- I'd
kinda believe that the relative pressure along the surface of the
pressure-recovery wheel pant is lower, except at the front. Oil mist travels down
the
leg and gathers along the bent section of leg. Is the inside of the leg fairing
coated with an oily film or if you place a paper towel against the rear edge
of the fairing does it expose oil seepage from the joint?
Mark Phillips do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: New fuel valve handle |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" <n144hr@earthlink.net>
And there is no image available. lol
Jim Anglin
HR II N144HR
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Pleasants" <jpleasants@bellsouth.net>
Fellow listers:
I hate to get involved in this, but I can't hold off any longer.
Waiver forms are, in my opinion, just as good as Yogi Berra allegedly
said of oral contracts: "Not worth the paper they're written on." I say
this after 40+ years of law. I am unaware of any lawyer whose acumen I
respect using any of these, or if they are using them because their client
insists, opining that they have any immunizing effect at all.
Having said that, if you want to prepare one, and insist the buyer sign
it, have at it. It may make you feel better, but don't delude yourself into
thinking that it adds any protection from suit or recovery. Indeed, it may
have the opposite effect -- can't you just see that mean ol' plaintiff's
lawyer asking the jury why the builder was so worried about the safety of
his aircraft that he felt it necessary to get a signature on such a paper?
It might be more efficient to wave a cross at any lawyer who shows up,
or bury a silver bullet in the structure.
Somewhere in this thread, the subject of asset protection came up. I
urge each one of you to talk to a knowledgeable lawyer before you take any
steps in that direction, and be sure to get him to explain the fraudulent
transfer laws in your state. Judges and juries get very upset if they smell
anything of that kind.
And before you flame me, please take a few deep breaths and make sure
you are taking your medicine.
Jim Pleasants
----- Original Message -----
From: <Vanremog@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates
homebuilts?)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.0/325 - Release Date: 4/26/2006
Message 15
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| Subject: | New fuel valve handle |
--> RV-List message posted by: "William Gill" <wgill10@comcast.net>
Listed under "New Products"
RV Fuel Selector Handle
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Anglin
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: New fuel valve handle
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Anglin" <n144hr@earthlink.net>
And there is no image available. lol
Jim Anglin
HR II N144HR
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 16
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| Subject: | Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms" <jhelms@nationair.com>
I've posted this information before, but understand that a customer called
one of my agents about this issue again today. So, I think it must not be
too soon to post this again.
For purposes of this discussion I refer to Van's Aircraft as the
manufacturer, and the builder as the assembler. I'm not trying to step on
any toes. only trying to help everyone understand better.
When selling your plane, the liability that you would have as the assembler
of the airplane would not be lessened by "parting it out" and selling the
various parts to different people. Actually, it could, in essence, increase
the liability exposure.
Selling the wings to one person, the engine to another, etc. could
potentially increase your exposure to liability. If any of the planes which
your former parts go into crash, then you could be sued. Your part which is
now in that plane wouldn't even necessarily have had to fail. Families
often sue despite the cause of the crash or facts of the case. Their loved
one couldn't have been at fault. In my opinion, the cost of defending the
lawsuit could be as bad or worse than the eventual judgement. So, having 4
or 5 aircraft out there with your former parts and the potential to crash
broadens the risk of a lawsuit being brought against you.
A very few aviation insurance policies cover "liability for the sale of the
aircraft" (AIG provides that but only for production aircraft, and AVEMCO
offers it on all their policies) but that is designed to cover any aircraft
owner from lawsuits arising out of poor maintenance and the like. It was
not designed to cover your liabilities as the assembler of a kit aircraft.
In fact, AVEMCO's coverage for sale of the aircraft even states that it is
intended to provide coverage arising out of your "ownership, maintenance,
and use" of the aircraft. It specifically does not state it covers
liability arising out of "assembly of" or "manufacture of" the aircraft.
As previously mentioned today on this forum, verbal and even written
agreements to waive liability are pretty much worthless.
The very best things which you as the assembler of the plane can do to
lessen your exposure are:
1. Follow the plans exactly, don't substitute parts, or change
anything. Any modification or substitution could be increasing your
liability by crossing over into the manufacturer or engineering type
liability areas. Obviously, there are differences amongst all your planes,
and places in the plans where it calls for you to make a choice (i.e. tip
up/slider) or whether or not to install an autopilot. In any event, if they
exist I'd suggest following the plans or recommendations as closely as
possible.
2. Have a third party A+P do an annual as the pre-buy. Don't do it
yourself as the builder or if you're an A+P or allow an A+P who might be
buying it from you do it. This applies to any airplane (production or
homebuilt) that you might sell. The annual is a declaration by that A+P
attesting to the airworthiness of the plane for another year. Having it be
a third party will support your position if you are sued, and you might be
able to even sue them if there was a problem which you were sued for
successfully. Or, the buyer might sue the A+P and not you (although they'd
likely sue both of you.)
3. Maintain the airplane well.
4. Don't own anything (and all the other legal things you can do to
make yourself less of a target to go after). A lawyer once told me that the
2nd best thing you can do is have a ton of coverage, the best thing is to
have none (and no assets).
While product liability coverage exists, it exists for manufacturers. It is
not realistic to believe it'd be affordable for any of you for having built
one plane. It'd cost more than the value of your plane. Anything is
insurable, but the starting price for special stuff like that thru Lloyd's
would be in the multiple tens of thousands of $'s if not $50,000. One might
as well make their plane into paperclips.
Just please don't think that parting your plane out for sale achieves a
lessening of liability exposure.
John "JT" Helms
Branch Manager
NationAir Insurance Agencies, Inc.
***Notice to All Recipients***
Please be advised that we cannot bind, modify, or cancel coverage via the
Internet, email or voicemail. Please call our office at (877) 475-5860 to
speak with a NationAir Representative. Thank you for your cooperation.
***Confidentiality Notice***
The Information in this email and any attachments therein is intended for
the addressee(s) only and may contain confidential information. If you are
not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this email and/or any attachments
thereto is strictly prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please
notify us immediately by email, attaching the original message, and delete
the original message from your system.
Message 17
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| Subject: | RE: RV10-List: New fuel valve handle |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Jessen" <jjessen@rcn.com>
See if the picture below gets through...
_____
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Mike Lauritsen -
Work
Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 1:24 PM
Subject: RV10-List: New fuel valve handle
We have designed a new fuel handle for those using Van's stock fuel valve.
They will be available in a few weeks for $47.
See our website for more info or to pre-order at:
http://www.cleavelandtoolstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=RVFS1
RV Fuel Selector Handle
Mike
Mike Lauritsen
Cleaveland Aircraft Tool
2225 First St.
Boone, Iowa 50036
515-432-6794
mike@cleavelandtool.com
Message 18
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|
| Subject: | Re: MT Props delay |
--> RV-List message posted by: "N395V" <n395v@hughes.net>
martin(at)gbonline.com wrote:
> Milt,
> Aero Composites will usually quote a longer lead time because most customers
> are happier when the prop is available sooner than expected, rather than
> later.
Makes sense if they deliver as promised.
I'm sitting here in Fredericksburg with an RV 7 builder who was promised an Aerocomposite
in February. It ain't here yet and he ain't happy.
On the other hand my MT from, Jim Ayers,was delivered ahead of scheduleand I am
very happy. :D
do not archive.
--------
Milt
N395V
F1 Rocket
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=31197#31197
Message 19
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--> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com
Hi all,
Do I need to worry about platenuts loosing their locking ability from
running screws in and out too frequently? Anyone know what the life expectancy
is
in terms of this? I am working on the tanks and was scratching my head about
when to rivet on the platenuts.
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV 8 Wings (tanks)
San Ramon, CA
Message 20
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| Subject: | Spelling lesson, entertainment only |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Alex Peterson" <alexpeterson@earthlink.net>
Ok, when you have something, and then you don't have it anymore, it is
called "losing", or "lose", or "lost".
When something is not tight, it is called "loose".
Now, if something loses its ability to stay tight, i.e., it becomes loose,
it is not called "loosing".
Got it?
There must be some pathologic reason RV builders can't get this right, and I
hope we build airplanes better.
Grin.
do not archive
Alex P.
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates homebuilts?) |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" <Bruce@glasair.org>
I'm not a lawyer but I thought that 'fraudulent transfer laws' only applied
after the tort was commited.
Bruce
www.glasair.org
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jim Pleasants
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 2:13 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates
homebuilts?)
--> RV-List message posted by: "Jim Pleasants" <jpleasants@bellsouth.net>
Fellow listers:
I hate to get involved in this, but I can't hold off any longer.
Waiver forms are, in my opinion, just as good as Yogi Berra allegedly
said of oral contracts: "Not worth the paper they're written on." I say
this after 40+ years of law. I am unaware of any lawyer whose acumen I
respect using any of these, or if they are using them because their client
insists, opining that they have any immunizing effect at all.
Having said that, if you want to prepare one, and insist the buyer sign
it, have at it. It may make you feel better, but don't delude yourself into
thinking that it adds any protection from suit or recovery. Indeed, it may
have the opposite effect -- can't you just see that mean ol' plaintiff's
lawyer asking the jury why the builder was so worried about the safety of
his aircraft that he felt it necessary to get a signature on such a paper?
It might be more efficient to wave a cross at any lawyer who shows up,
or bury a silver bullet in the structure.
Somewhere in this thread, the subject of asset protection came up. I
urge each one of you to talk to a knowledgeable lawyer before you take any
steps in that direction, and be sure to get him to explain the fraudulent
transfer laws in your state. Judges and juries get very upset if they smell
anything of that kind.
And before you flame me, please take a few deep breaths and make sure
you are taking your medicine.
Jim Pleasants
----- Original Message -----
From: <Vanremog@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Re: Lawsuits against builders (Was AOPA hates
homebuilts?)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.0/325 - Release Date: 4/26/2006
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
In a message dated 04/27/2006 5:09:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
alexpeterson@earthlink.net writes:
There must be some pathologic reason RV builders can't get this right, and I
hope we build airplanes better.
>>>>
Thank GAWD I'm not the only one to notice this- & NOT and Englitch majer
either! Thanks!
do not archive
Mark
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Platenut Life |
--> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
Hi Michael-
I know this will start a storm of incandescent blowtorches from listers, but
in MY experience, FWIW, I tapped every freakin' platenut on my plane and have
never, I repeat NEVER experienced a single one of them loosening as a result-
YMMV, but I must have installed 500 of the freakin' things (all floorboards,
tanks, interior panels, wingroot fairings, baggage bulkhead etc.) and would do
it again in a heartbeat.
And by the way- my name is PHILLIPS and if there is ANY way I can avoid a
PHILLIPS screw, it shall be done- I've used the torx fasteners from
microfasterners.com with spectacular results, and you'll be glad you did the same-
no
gratuities from them, but I am in the torx camp and intend to stay there...
(Pheeew! Do I get worked up sometimes or WHAT?!)
I mean it-
Mark Phillips - RV-6A N51PW, 300 hours and not a screw loose yet except maybe
in the right seat! 8-) http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
p.s. - I'd happily build an RV for you and every one of them suckers would
have a nice sharp tap drilled mercilessly thru it!
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Platenut Life |
--> RV-List message posted by: "Mannan J. Thomason" <mannanj@alltel.net>
I wholehartedly second the emotion! Tap them suckers and Torx forever.
Microfasteners.com---a bit more expensive, but worth every penny. They
don't call them Torx, something like six lobe drive I believe.
Mannan Thomason
RV-8 N161RL (# 1 Girl)
Engine running, almost ready to fly.
Please do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: <Fiveonepw@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: RV-List: Platenut Life
> --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> Hi Michael-
>
> I know this will start a storm of incandescent blowtorches from listers,
> but
> in MY experience, FWIW, I tapped every freakin' platenut on my plane and
> have
> never, I repeat NEVER experienced a single one of them loosening as a
> result-
> YMMV, but I must have installed 500 of the freakin' things (all
> floorboards,
> tanks, interior panels, wingroot fairings, baggage bulkhead etc.) and
> would do
> it again in a heartbeat.
>
> And by the way- my name is PHILLIPS and if there is ANY way I can avoid a
> PHILLIPS screw, it shall be done- I've used the torx fasteners from
> microfasterners.com with spectacular results, and you'll be glad you did
> the same- no
> gratuities from them, but I am in the torx camp and intend to stay
> there...
>
> (Pheeew! Do I get worked up sometimes or WHAT?!)
>
> I mean it-
> Mark Phillips - RV-6A N51PW, 300 hours and not a screw loose yet except
> maybe
> in the right seat! 8-) http://websites.expercraft.com/n51pw/
>
> p.s. - I'd happily build an RV for you and every one of them suckers would
> have a nice sharp tap drilled mercilessly thru it!
>
>
>
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Experimental Bill of Sale/Waiver |
--> RV-List message posted by: Vanremog@aol.com
I wanted to at least get the text of my Bill of Sale that I used when =20
selling my Kitfox back in 1997 out in this forum so that people can argue i=
ts=20
merits and improve it as feasible. The previous .doc file I pasted from wa=
s=20
soundly trounced by Matt's e-mail filter, so let's try pasting from a .txt=20=
file of=20
it. I can send the original .doc file if any of you or your lawyers want i=
t=20
as a basis for further development.
=20
Let's try to play nicely now. I know that anyone that puts forth any =20
opinion on the list these days is due for a solid thrashing just for old ti=
mes=20
sake, but just keep in mind that we're trying to be constructive here. I d=
on't=20
care what any of you say anyway, so let the games begin ;o)
=20
-GV
=20
=20
=20
EXPERIMENTAL-AMATEUR BUILT AIRCRAFT SALES AGREEMENT
=20
THIS FORM SUPPLEMENTS, BUT DOES NOT REPLACE, FAA AC FORM 8050-2. THE FAA=20
REGISTRATION-NUMBER OF THIS AIRCRAFT IS NXXXX. THIS AIRCRAFT WAS CONSTRUCTE=
D
IN ACCORDANCE WITH PLANS SERIAL NUMBER XXXXX, AND IS A FACSIMILE OF AN=20
AIRCRAFT KNOWN AS AN XX-XX. THE AIRCRAFT IS DESCRIBED IN GREATER DETAIL
ON SHEET 2 OF THIS AGREEMENT.
=20
The experimental-amateur built aircraft being sold is not designed and/or
built to meet any defined standards of airworthiness as are =E2=80=9CStandar=
d =20
Aircraft=E2=80=9D.
This aircraft does not have an FAA Form 317 Statement of Conformity
on file, as there are no FAA approved data with which to conform. In the
case of experimental-amateur built aircraft, the registered owner(s) is/are
the experimenter(s). Most parts of this aircraft were not built in permane=
nt
jigs and, as such, may not be directly interchangeable with like parts
on other aircraft of the same facsimile. The original builder of this
experimental aircraft may possess a repairman=E2=80=99s certificate for pur=
poses
of maintaining and performing condition inspections on this aircraft only,
although he/she may not be a professional mechanic nor possess an FAA A&P
license. FAA records list the registered owner(s) as the manufacturer of
an experimental-amateur built aircraft as the manufacturer and, as=20
manufacturer,
the registered owner(s) is/are free to make any modifications or changes to
the design as they see fit, although notification of major alterations have
and must be made to the FAA. This aircraft is an example of the =20
builder/owner=E2=80=99s
creative ability and was built for their education and recreation. Upon=20
sale,
the newly registered owner of this experimental-amateur built aircraft in=20
fact
will be considered its new manufacturer. As of the date of sale, the new=20
owner
becomes responsible for its aerodynamic and structural function and/or=20
concept.
The new owner is responsible for the performance, fit and/or purpose of eve=
ry
part/piece on the aircraft.
=20
No warranty of any kind, either expressed or implied, is made to the =20
Purchaser
or anyone else as to the merchantability or airworthiness of NXXXX.
This experimental-amateur built aircraft is sold on an =E2=80=9CAS IS, WHER=
E-IS
and WITH ALL FAULTS PRESENTLY INCORPORATED=E2=80=9D basis.
=20
Flying poses certain inherent risks that can result in serious injury or =20
death.
Any person who pilots or acts as passenger in this experimental aircraft do=
es
so at his/her own risk. Because of the sale hereof and in receipt of other
good and valuable consideration, the Purchaser/new Owner hereby Waives and
Releases the seller(s) from any and all Demands, Claims of every kind,
including but not limited to, Liability, Breach of Warranty or Negligence,
which the Purchaser, owner , pilot, and/or passenger in this experimental
aircraft may have. This Release and Waiver is binding on all Heirs, Person=
al
Representatives and Assigns of the Purchaser, Subsequent Owners, Pilots=20
and/or
Passengers.
=20
As Purchaser/new Owner, I accept the terms of this Sales Agreement for the
experimental-amateur built aircraft identified above and agree to be bound
by the above stipulations. I agree that any subsequent sale of this aircra=
ft
will be made with the same disclosures, agreements and assurances listed
above as a minimum.
=20
Name of Purchaser/new Owner: Name of Purchaser/new Co-Owner: =20
Purchaser=E2=80=99s Address: Co-Owner=E2=80=99s Address: =20
Signature of Purchaser: Signature of Co-Owner: =20
=20
As Seller(s), on this XXth day of Month, XXXX in the County of XXXX, State
of XX, I/We do hereby sell, grant, transfer, release and deliver all rights=
,
title, interest, possession and responsibility for/to such experimental
aircraft to the above Purchaser and acknowledge the receipt of a Cashier=
=E2=80=99s
Check in the amount of $XXXX.00, payable to the Seller. No sales tax was
collected pursuant to State Law and this becomes the responsibility of the
Purchaser.
=20
Total Hours Engine and Airframe at time of sale XXX.X
=20
Name of Seller/Owner: Name of Seller/Co-Owner: =20
Seller/Owner=E2=80=99s Address: Seller/Co-Owner=E2=80=99s Address: =20
Signature of Seller/Owner: Signature of Co-Owner: =20
=20
Witness: Signature of Witness: =20
=20
This Bill of Sale is to be signed by all parties. The FAA dropped the
requirement for notarizing in 1972. Seller retains the original and a copy
is given to the Purchaser/new Owner. Seller sends a copy of the original=20
document
to the FAA along with Cancellation of Registration FAA AC FORM 8050-73.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Platenut Life |
--> RV-List message posted by: MLWynn@aol.com
Thanks, gents
Are you using torx screws to hold the fuel tanks on?
Regards,
Michael Wynn
RV-8, Wings
San Ramon, California
Do Not Archive
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only |
--> RV-List message posted by: David Maib <dmaib@mac.com>
Interestingly, I have noticed the "loose" problem on other aviation
websites that are totally unrelated to homebuilt/experimental
airplanes. hmmmm.................!!
David
On Apr 27, 2006, at 9:15 PM, Fiveonepw@aol.com wrote:
> --> RV-List message posted by: Fiveonepw@aol.com
>
> In a message dated 04/27/2006 5:09:44 PM Central Daylight Time,
> alexpeterson@earthlink.net writes:
> There must be some pathologic reason RV builders can't get this
> right, and I
> hope we build airplanes better.
>>>>>
>
> Thank GAWD I'm not the only one to notice this- & NOT and Englitch
> majer
> either! Thanks!
> do not archive
>
> Mark
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
John Helms wrote:
>When selling your plane, the liability that you would have as the assembler
>of the airplane would not be lessened by "parting it out" and selling the
>various parts to different people.
>
>
I thought the idea of taking it apart was to sell ALL of the parts to
one person who then would obviously need to reassemble it. Then if an
accident were to occur they would have to prove that whatever supposed
defect didn't come from the guy who bought the parts putting it together
wrong.
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
Gift Giving Made Easy
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give the gifts they want
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Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Chopping up your plane for sale doesn't help. |
--> RV-List message posted by: "John Helms (MO)" <jhelms@nationair.com>
What benefit is there for the buyer in that. He's likely seen the plane, knows
it flies. Then you disassemble it and sell it to him. Do you think that a)
he'd still want to buy it knowing he has to put it all back together (which he
might not know how to do)and b) give you the same price for it that he might
have been thinking of giving you?
do not archive
JT
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
>--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
>
>John Helms wrote:
>
>>When selling your plane, the liability that you would have as the assembler
>>of the airplane would not be lessened by "parting it out" and selling the
>>various parts to different people.
>>
>>
>I thought the idea of taking it apart was to sell ALL of the parts to
>one person who then would obviously need to reassemble it. Then if an
>accident were to occur they would have to prove that whatever supposed
>defect didn't come from the guy who bought the parts putting it together
>wrong.
>
>do not archive
>
>
>--
>Chris W
>KE5GIX
>
>Gift Giving Made Easy
>Get the gifts you want &
>give the gifts they want
>One stop wish list for any gift,
>from anywhere, for any occasion!
>http://thewishzone.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Spelling lesson, entertainment only |
--> RV-List message posted by: Chris W <3edcft6@cox.net>
Alex Peterson wrote:
>There must be some pathologic reason RV builders can't get this right, and I
>hope we build airplanes better.
>
>
I know this was meant in good humor so please don't take this too
seriously.
Those who think the ability to spell correctly is an indication of
intelligence, are morons. Equating the ability to spell well, with the
ability to build an airplane well, is beyond ludicrous! The mental
abilities required to build an airplane well are logical thinking and
the ability to make rational decisions, there is little logical or
rational about the English language. Those who see a word that is not
spelled right or the wrong word on a page, and instantly think, "the
writer can't spell", are also a morons. There is such a thing as a
typo. I often inadvertently type too when I mean to, I also often type
how when I mean who. It's not because I don't know how to spell the
words or what the difference between them is. Here are some thoughts on
the subject from those more knowledgeable about it than I. The last one
is extraordinarily well put.
"I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way." --
Mark Twain
"My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles, and the
letters get in the wrong places." -- A. A. Milne
That often happens to my typing, and I am sure many others as well.
"Correct spelling, indeed, is one of the arts that are far more esteemed
by schoolma'ams than by practical men, neck-deep in the heat and agony
of the world." ~Henry Louis Mencken, The American Language
"As I have said before, I never had any large respect for good spelling.
That is my feeling yet. Before the spelling-book came with its arbitrary
forms, men unconsciously revealed shades of their characters, and also
added enlightening shades of expression to what they wrote by their
spelling, and so it is possible that the spelling-book has been a
doubtful benevolence to us." -- Mark Twain
"What is the real function, the essential function, the supreme
function, of language? Isn't it merely to convey ideas and emotions?
Certainly. Then if we can do it with words of fonetic brevity and
compactness, why keep the present cumbersome forms?" -- Mark Twain
The best for last.
"I have had an aversion to good spelling for sixty years and more,
merely for the reason that when I was a boy there was not a thing I
could do creditably except spell according to the book. It was a poor
and mean distinction, and I early learned to disenjoy it. I suppose that
this is because the ability to spell correctly is a talent, not an
acquirement. There is some dignity about an acquirement, because it is a
product of your own labor. It is wages earned, whereas to be able to do
a thing merely by the grace of God, and not by your own effort,
transfers the distinction to our heavenly home - where possibly it is a
matter of pride and satisfaction, but it leaves you naked and
bankrupt." -- Mark Twain
do not archive
--
Chris W
KE5GIX
Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com
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